#madeline miller discourse

[classicslesbianopinions]

wait, isn't madeline miller a classics professor? wouldnt her adaptations be good then? :(

it's really important i think to not make the mistake of thinking that book knowledge translates to adaptive skill. madeline miller has a really impressive breadth of knowledge and she incorporates that into her works but the ways in which she transforms it fall flat.

edit: she's not a professor either she's a latin/greek teacher. she has an MA but not a PhD. either way though she's got more education than i do but i stand by what i said

[1990jeevas]

Tubbo + Connections (for @tommycroft)

Years of War, Porter Robinson / Lamb, BROCKHAMPTON / UNKNOWN / A Primer For The Small Weird Loves, Richard Siken / Mirror Traps, Hera Lindsay Bird / The Fall, SAD-ist / A Lover's Discourse: Fragments, by Roland Barthes / Hog Hunt, SAD-ist / The Winner's Kiss, Marie Rutkoski / Hog Hunt, SAD-ist / Circe, Madeline Miller / A Primer For The Small Weird Loves, Richard Siken / Under The Surface, Casserole :D / The Grove, Aron Wiesenfeld / Homestuck (2009-2016) / softestsunbeams / A Field of Onions: Brown Study, Vanessa Angélica Villarreal / On Earth We’re Briefly Gorgeous, Ocean Vuong / Everything Stays, Adventure Time / The Fall, SAD-ist / Final Waltz, SAD-ist

[mrthology]

I've seen an uptick of hate for RR and his portrayal of the gods and accuracy to myth, do you have any thoughts on that with how much fic you write and the way you portray the gods? /gen

Hi! I’ve answered something similar to this HERE as well, if you’d rather read that! I haven’t seen any uptick of negativity, but I try to avoid any of the more discourse-y sides of fandom. Mostly because I’ve seen it all before, and while discourse is a valid way to interact with fandom, it’s not how I enjoy PJO! 

Short answer: I don’t think a children’s book series is an educational source, nor do I think authors have a responsibility to be 100% accurate when it comes to writing fiction. If someone is looking to RR as their only source for mythological accuracy, that’s a different conversation to have. 

Longer answer below the cut!

The books have flaws, and RR has flaws. But, I don’t expect a children’s fiction book to be perfectly accurate. Hell, classists still argue about a lot of the history and myth. New translations change how we think about Greek texts. There are different historical sources, authors and historians disagree with one another, etc.. History is complicated, especially when it’s so ancient! There’s a reason this is an area of study people devoted their lives to, after all.

I don’t see the PJO series as accurate, but I don’t think they need to be. At their core, I’ve always seen them as stories about Percy, and that’s a very human story that resonated with me as a child, and I know it resonated just as much with others. I likewise don’t read any other retellings expecting perfect accuracy (which, considering the subject, is difficult to do lol), but for a story I enjoy. I read Clytemnestra by Constanza Casati recently and it wasn’t perfectly accurate. But I enjoyed the story, I enjoyed the portrayal of a character who’s always interested me, and I enjoyed the author’s writing style. There are Greek (and other) retellings I didn't like for whatever reason, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong per se, or that people can’t enjoy them as works of fiction.

When I first read the PJO books, I picked them up because I already loved Greek mythology, and I kept reading them for Percy. He was, and still is, a character I adore. That’s why I love PJO, even if as an adult I know they have a lot of flaws, know they’re often wildly inaccurate, and don’t agree with some of RR’s portrayals or takes. I don’t need to! I fell in love with PJO for the characters. Not for a perfect historical and mythological summary, or for a portrayal of the gods I see as relevant to me and my views and beliefs. And, to be blunt, I don’t think that anyone should read PJO or any of the related books as if they’re accurate. They’re not, and they don’t need to be. They’re works of fiction made for children. 

My issue with the so-called accuracy isn’t the books; it’s when people claim they should be (or are) perfectly accurate, or when people use them as an actual source. RR has his issues, but if people are genuinely using a kids series as their source for all things Greek Mythology... that’s on them. He’s a children’s author, and that’s where he’s strongest. There are bits I liked, and bits I side-eyed. But the books are meant to get kids reading and having fun. I, and many people in the fandom, simply am not the target audience. I’ve re-read them and have had issues with some things, but those are issues I as an adult have, and that’s okay! They’re not meant for me. They’re meant for kids. 

I could also say the same thing (and do) about so many other retellings, and so many other books. Stephen Fry’s Mythos, Madeline Miller and her books, the multitude of girl-boss retellings, and more. I’ve DNF’d some retellings, refuse to read others, and have my issues with some aspects of them. But, I don’t think any of the above authors, or RR, are presenting their books as some perfect historical texts, and I don’t think anyone should read them like they are. 

I write because I love to write, and am still in this fandom because I adore Percy as a character and love the escapism and enjoyment it brings me. If someone else gets their enjoyment over debating accuracy in the books, that’s likewise 100% valid. It’s just not for me.

[johaerys-writes]

Do you block these people who spend their time complaining about TSOA, Patrochilles, Patroclus, Achilles, etc etc? Bc before I wouldn't block it unless it was a bot or really unbearable because I thought "ah unnecessary", but then I started blocking more people simply bc they frequently showed up bringing topics I didn't care about and my life on Tumblr became really great. But if you block it and it continues to appear, then idk... maybe your algorithm is simply more infernal than mine

Yeah same, I used to be really reluctant and didn't want to block anyone but honestly blocking and muting and blacklisting is the only way one can have a positive online experience imo and I suggest everyone do it! But unfortunately there are certain topics that are brought up again and again ad nauseum and Tumblr likes to throw those posts in my recommended and FYP pages for some reason, and as much as I block I can't catch everything lol! So like I often scroll in bed in the morning before getting up (bad habit lmao) and then I'll see some random post regurgitating the same tired discourse and it sucks, man! It blows!! It hurts my feelings lmao!!!! Like these are my blorbos you're talking about, be kind 😂 Some are easier to ignore than others, and like I GET that a lot of people don't have the same understanding of tsoa and the iliad and patroclus and patrochilles etc etc that I do and that’s fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion but like...... a lot of it is based on wrong information or complete misinterpretation of the canon or someone managing to read a passage or event in the shallowest way possible and idk WHY the algorithm decides I have to read these things every few days lmao. I just think it would be sooooo much simpler if we could all enjoy the things we enjoy and not shit on what others enjoy, there is enough room for everyone and no one has to be excluded! If you love warrior Pat for instance and aren't a fan of non warrior Pat, just engage with that and hype the works that show that or better yet create your own art/writing/whatever, without trying to take those that love non warrior Pat down a peg. It's literally so unnecessary and ruins everyone's time. Especially when we're talking about characters who have been around for millennia and there are bound to be hundreds if not thousands of different versions of them. From Homer to Shakespeare to Madeline Miller to Hades game, everyone created their own versions of those characters and they're all valid and no one's worse or lesser. It's simply a matter of preference (or if you're REALLY brave and wrinkly brained you love every single one of those versions and go feral thinking about them and never know a moment of true peace LMAO)

I don’t often talk about it here bc I don't like to spread negativity or start drama or rain on anyone’s parade, and ignoring those posts is the simplest thing in the world (just keep scrolling), but like there are certain topics that keep coming up over and over and over again and I WISH ppl would see beyond that, it's literally not that hard and I promise you'll be soooo much happier for it

[light-macadamia]

Mid Year Book Tag [2023]

Starting off with the stats to reel you in: I’ve read 25 books (against 58 acquired, for shame), of which 60% were in audio format. Literary fiction made every other genre eat it (incredibly odd for me), and the majority (30%) did not feature a prominent romantic plot/subplot. Usually it’s a cockfight between wlw and straight, if I am honest.

Best book you’ve read so far in 2023: If We Were Villains

It’s tragic, it’s twisted, it’s messy, and it kept a tight hold on me for two days nonstop. Since then I have picked up the Secret History and Bunny, to compare and measure against the dark academia vibe, and found them all to be vastly different books!

Best sequel you’ve read so far in 2023: A Prayer for the Crown Shy 

Becky Chambers needs to make a chain email with all the little adventures of this duo. Although they can be too mellow for my tastes, it is an irresistible serving of the cosy every now and again. 

New release you haven’t read yet, but want to: In The Lives of Puppets

Most anticipated release for the rest of the year: Alecto! Alecto! Alecto!

Biggest disappointment: The Hacienda

It had all the markings of being a favourite – gothic horror in the backdrop of Mexico. But the gothic lacked novelty, the horror lacked in general, and the romance was so boring. Together it did very little to wash away the peeve I had over a topic introduced seemingly for nothing but ~vibes~,  which is the abuse suffered by maids and servants at the hand of masters.

Biggest surprise: Drive your Plow Over the Bones of the Dead

As well as Frankenstein: both are amazing, incredibly immersive and full of reclusive reflection. Frankenstein impressed me so much I ended up giving a talk to unsuspecting high schoolers just to rope them into discourse about it.

Favourite new author: Madeline Miller

Newest favourite character: Edmund “Bunny” Corcoran

Bunny from The Secret History is SUCH a pissbaby, my face lit up every time he came up in a scene. Whatever mix of nasal infection and posh accent Donna Tartt gave him in the audiobook, is now a voice filter that lives in my head rent free. Comes in very handy when I have to read sour emails.

Book that made you cry: ???

I am clearly saving them for something big, cause nothing comes to mind.

Book that made you happy: ???

I am equally stingy with my glee, it seems, cause nothing comes to mind either.

The most beautiful book you’ve bought so far this year: Our Hideous Progeny

I do not have it in physical copy but damn what an eye candy to have on bookshelves (or storygraph).

Favourite book to movie adaptation you’ve seen this year: Nimona

Bestie and I read the graphic novel years ago, so we reprised by watching it together and crocheting.

[letterful]

whats wrong with madeline miller

let us not go through THAT discourse again

[alatismeni-theitsa]

hello, sorry to bother! I was just wondering what is your field of studies? sorry if you've talked about it before but I missed it 😭 you seem to have a good knowledge of the classics, did you study that?

Hello! You are not bothering me, that's why my ask box is open!

I am not in the classics field. The Iliad, the Odyssey, some ancient plays, and our myths, we analyze them thoroughly (and properly) in elementary, middle, and high school in Greece. (In our mandatory for all History or Ancient Greek lessons). If someone is interested and pays attention, and also continues reading and watching documentaries outside of school, they can get pretty decent. Most importantly, Greek students are taught in a way that conveys the context of the era the texts come from. It's not an exotic/foreign concept to us.

My knowledge is not perfect, I don't remember everything and there are times I need to do additional research. I listen to Greek and xenoi friends if they have found something I don't know. But the foundations have been laid for an interest that it's ongoing for me. So I understand the conventions, and why statements like "Zeus is an asshole" and oversimplifications like "the gods are psychopaths" (hello Madeline Miller) are incorrect. (jokes about Zeus are not bad per se, it's when people actually, seriously mean them then it's weird).

Comment on the Greek education system:

I don't imply that only school education makes you an expert but imo the material is pretty good and if one pays attention can get pretty good knowledge. Plus, our middle and high school teachers have a 4year old diploma in their field + Master's degree most of the time. Things changed a bit three years ago but before that, half or more of the students went attend (plus from the above I mentioned) "theoretical"/"humanitarian" mandatory orientation classes.

A large amount of Greek high school students are able to translate and analyze known and unknown (seeing them for the first time out of the blue in the Panhellenic Exams) ancient texts (Greek and Latin) of all subjects. Most Greek students take intensive classes outside of school, and the "humanities" students see hundreds of ancient Greek texts before reaching 18. Ten years ago you needed to do all that to go to a nursing school.

In the last three years, the Humanities field has been narrowed down and fewer kids take these mandatory classes. Of course, students don't remember everything after they leave school but the exposure to so many texts instills in them an understanding of the ancient Greek society and folklore. (my mum can still recite Aristotle's "Definition of Tragedy" she learned in middle school but that's because it gave her ptsd 😂)

For Greeks who may think I overhype the knowledge the system gives us (ειναι γιατι εχουμε συνηθισει το αγγουρι και μας φαινονται ευκολα), you can go ask all the online experts on mythology discourse (who are usually USAmericans) what they knew on ancient greek societies and what analysis they did on the myths when they were 16.

From the discussions with USians I've done over the years, someone in the US needs to attend University in order to start analyzing such texts to the degree we did in middle school. There are always exceptions, but what exposure and context we get in Greece at a young age cannot be underestimated. Trust me, it can be much, much worse outside of Greece 😂

That's been my experience, at least. You can, naturally, add stuff if you've been through the Greek ed. system and saw something different!

[classicslesbianopinions]

I read Miller's Circe to see what all the fuse was about (and it's getting a live action adaptation). Now what i liked about the book was the nice description of scenery, like the palaces what they wear, the gods. The pacing was okay in some parts and i was worried what she would add to move the plot because Circe most of the time is on an island. 😅

It was in general a nice book to pass the time. Now as a Greek i must confess i thought it was a 50/50 book for me. It took elements from greek mythology and added something new to fill the gaps of Circe's story.What i skipped because it triggered me was Circe's assault. It didn't have to happen to excuse her actions or to have the trope "women who are assaulted become stronger and cold".

But like we said the Gods are not evil they are just complex characters like humans and i hope it translates like that on screen too. And Circe is a morally gray character not a feminist icon.

i need to reread circe just to remember what i liked/didn't like about it... but yeah this makes sense to me. it'll be interesting to see what the live action adaptation is like, i've heard a couple whispers of it but i don't know much. but actually i can see it being decent-- at the very least it should be visually stunning. honestly i think like... i would have so many fewer problems with circe if it wasn't marketed as feminist. which might be unfair because the author doesn't always get to choose the marketing.

and yeah. must a woman be assaulted? is it not enough for her to just kind of want to live on an island, turning men into pigs?

[fantastic-nonsense]

MADELINE MILLER IS WRITING A PERSEPHONE BOOK EVERYONE, THIS IS NOT A DRILL

[anistrange]

MEME TIME

So apparently thanks to @alatismeni-theitsa, @coloricioso is in the Anti-Miller arc and I seriously can't wait to watch her dunk on her work more often (No hard feelings for MM, she looks like a nice person, but she has been praised uncritically and sometimes feedback can be good tho 😭) please accept me as one of us and my rethoric (Ovid ruining discourse since time immemorial part.2) look, I even made a meme to forge the alliance 😔✊🏼 Stay strong.

[persephoneist]

Can't tag you when rebloging the post, but anyway. Not sure why you imply a theory of "consented eating" translates into denying Ancient Greek's women reality. Even if you want to go that way, you should be aware "rape" terminology did not exist as we see it nowdays (in a legal and cultural sense), also that most of scholars agree that when Persephone speaks she contradicts the narrator and it's more likely a lie for her mother. I could go on with arguments but can't tag you, sorry. What I find funny is making such a scandal but not caring that basically almost every female character in Greek myth did not consent marriage, so even Penelope and Odysseus would be wrong to our modern eyes (she was a "bride prize"). Let's cancel whole myths according to that.

You coulda just reblogged the post from me lol miss thing

Consented eating does deny the whole point of the myth, and thus ancient women's trauma; you do understand that consented eating implies that Persephone willingly chose to stay with her rapist and kidnapper with literally 0 backing, right?

Why are you explaining to me that the word rape meant abduction (I know latin homie, rapere = abduct big whoop). That has nothing to do with the point I made. I was referencing a line in the actual poem that heavily implies rape in the modern sense: sexual assault. Persephone is in his bed and in distress due to something that Hades has done to her. It's not a hard connection to make.

Also what scholars? Do they have names? Because I've literally never heard of this in scholarly circles. If you mean one specific person, say their name. That's not true at all; like i said, most deception in Greek myth is known by the audience, and we would know it because it would be made clear.

I'm not making a scandal, I'm just making it clear. You're the one that's trying to sanitize ancient marriages into what they are not. I don't care that the majority of ancient marriages aren't #progressive by todays standards, and I don't try to sanitize them into being consensual or feminist. My problem is people trying to make it so.

not gonna dignify that last line with a response because it's stupid lol

[rotzaprachim]

Also like I support people picking whatever annoying hills they want to die on and fiction impacts reality etc but let’s be real in that not all discourses on This site have the same practical magnitude

[princesofphithia]

anyone: Mmmmmm IDK Song of Achilles doesn't seem very true to the-

me: i'm gonna go ahead and stop you right there Madeline Miller has a degree in Classics, taught Greek and Latin, and spent ten (10) years writing and researching this book, but uh. Sure, Jan.

[catilinas]

we should have ancient historian discourse on here. when will madeline miller write an adaption of polybius’ histories that girlbossifies hamilcar barca

[mogai-timezzz]

🔅 New Gender Alert! 🔅

Achillesongous

Achillesongous is a gender related to the novel Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller.

Requested by anon ♡︎

TERFs, Truscum/Transmeds, Proshippers, Cringe Blog, (No)MAPs, LGBT Exclusionists and those here to start discourse, don’t interact!

[cherrychapati]

an intro post, because I'm bored and I like to talk

Hi! I'm dharani (she/her), bi, I love music, reading and swimming, and I'm super quiet if you see me irl until I open up to you. That's when you wish I stayed quiet ;) please feel free to message me with rants, yells or just cuz you wanna talk💖

Some favourite reads

Clap When You Land

The potterverse (terfs get tf out)

Frankenstein (discourse is welcome)

Riordanverse

The flavia de Luce novels

most things mystery (think sherlock holmes, agatha christie)

Love, simon

Anything by Elizabeth Acevedo, madeline miller and Ruta Sepetys

I'M JUST GETTING INTO THE GRISHAVERSE Y'ALL, NO SPOILERS PLEASE BUT I'M LOVING IT

Shows that I love:📺

Avatar the last airbender

Hometown cha cha cha

Sherlock

Doctor who

Good omens

Love, victor

Wandavision

True beauty (kdrama)

The tale of the nine tailed

Music!!!!

kpop stan (sorry not sorry if you find that annoying) my ults are - stray kids, txt, seventeen, nct, bts, got7, exo (but honestly if you hit me with a dm about someone I will 1000% yell about them with you)

🎶🎶I also listen to a shit ton of classical music (twoset fam!)

jacob collier

one direction

tøp, p!atd, waterparks

cavetown, conan gray, olivia rodrigo

dodie

taylor swift, maisie peters, gracie abrams

I also LOVE musicals oh my god,,,,, hadestown, hamilton, be more chill

Here are some people who I met on tumblr who are AMAZING and BEAUTIFUL

@herondalesunsetcurve is my PARABATAI and I would DIE for her anyone who doesn't like her will face my WRATH💞💕💓💖

@johnwatsonismypatronus is my cabin 7 bestie, we will awe you with our music as we scream about stucky. also hon hon baguette🥖🎶

@silvia-with-an-idk is my malec stan and my gif editor. where would I be if I couldnt share erotic malec content with this one😏

@asirxrowena listens to my loki rants, and understands the pain of waiting as webtoon artists go on hiatus (also, heartstopper = adorable)❤🥺

@psycho-mocha is my crazy ass soul sister, we yell about screaming skin and jjk🌻🥀

@hitchhiker-of-the-galaxy is a Sweetheart and I love.💫

@phoenix-carstairs is someone I am constantly ranting to, ily ily thank you for listening❤

yeehaw there you go, comprehensive list of things that I love💖🌻