#markhelly… sort of

[mcrlboro]

severance ep 4

[sorrydetka]

something else i want to talk about from the restaurant scene in reference to the lighting is how helena sees mark framed in blue light, but mark sees helena framed in red, the color of love, from the moment she enters. more relevantly though, in the moment of “recognition” when he gets up to leave.

the waiter is also decked in red, the window that was blue is covered by her face. the carpet of the restaurant is red, and the napkin under the two fortune cookies is also red… when he leaves…. out of the blue into the red into the winter (cue brain surgery and remembering he had sex with helly earlier that day)

he’s trying to reject the feeling, but unwittingly walking right into it

[bowcard]

so why wasn’t my girl “helly r” pushing mark s OUT that damn door????? wouldn’t she want the person she loves to be free from hell itself??? do you think eurydice was a bit relieved that orpheus, her love, did not have to suffer as she did???

[alicepao13]

"Severance S2 finale was so good, I wish they’d end the show there." Then don’t watch S3?

[unfamiliaris]

no matter how hard of a markhelly you are you can't not tear up at "mark come on, we have to go home" btw. like we see this show so much from marks perspective but gemmas not just "his wife" he's her husband. literally the love of her life and she's watching the man she yearned for and begged to have back for 2 years hesitate on whether or not he wants to be with her. she didn't die but she had her life stolen and everyone in her life was forced to move on as if she were gone. she's not dead but she's a ghost in marks life as he finds love again and its not her. she's not dead but all she can do is haunt. her pained screaming while mark oscillates on what to do with himself is the sort of desperation she felt for him for the past 2 years but now that he's closer than ever he's the farthest he's ever been.

[radioactive-yuri]

the main cast of severance are so silly and awesome but it is kinda funny how fixated on markhelly adam scott really is. meanwhile whenever sydney cole alexander is asked about natalie she always pulls some shit like "yeah haha it's been really fun getting to portray a character that really embodies a sort of existential terror involved with her job, and has essentially been hollowed out to serve as a vessel for an omnipotent and omnipresent yet ultimately unkind and unforgiving god,"

[horsegirlhob]

Of the many reasons markhelly is so special is that they've perfected the art of being in cahoots. Those two are always up to some sort of shit always walkin' down hallways together finding goats looking out for each other getting each other in and out of trouble. It's an essential cornerstone of their dynamic and it's so beautiful to me.

[burneddownthegym]

it is actually kind of crazy to me how overwhelming the markhelly chemistry feels in s2 vs the way it was more subtle in s1. like i always thought they had chemistry and were v obviously flirting for a lot of the season, but i still understood people who were surprised by them kissing at the end of s1. when i finished s1 i liked them and wanted more but they didn't really register as a ship i'd get really into.

and i think there's a similarity there w the way s1 feels kind of "sexless" in general. the severed floor is white and sterile, and the world outside is cold and dead. burt and irving is sweet, but it stays physically v innocent all season. and mark and alexa is more one of those awkward, passing connections that's v human but ultimately not going somewhere, so even tho they sleep together it doesn't play the same way as the romantic stories in s2. it's too overshadowed by mark's psychological mess.

bc s1 is kind of the starting point emotionally in two ways that don't really go along with sex and romance. like first the fact that severance is metaphor for repression and cutting off the inconvenient parts of oneself and others etc etc. and then second the way that s1 is more abt childhood (according to dan erickson) vs the adolescence of s2. like, the dual states of holding this stuff back and also not really knowing that it's an option.

so it's so interesting to me that as both that repression and innocence starts to erode that the chemistry and emotion in all of these couples is coming out too. like, it turns out that what felt subtle in s1 actually probably was intentionally subtle. and it's crazy that writing/acting/directing can control that sort of effect so well that i would think that, when it feels so intense now.

[jesterkoops]

Helena has this incredibly isolated life that makes me feel almost claustrophobic.She lives in her father’s glass house under constant surveillance.Nutures a violent eating disorder.Probably feels sick the entire day.Only gets to interact with Natalie and Drummond.Can’t even talk to her father to let him know she’s alive.It’s insane how little control she actually has.Sure I want her to love herself,the good and the bad.But I also want someone to love her.I want her to know that feeling however her story ends.One of the many reasons I was against markhelly/markhelena.I get outie Mark.I really do understand what he’s been through.But he’s mean,selfish and the least empathetic person I know in the show.I am not particularly keen on this part.Helena who’s always felt unwanted and unloved going through more heartbreak because of Mark?Unacceptable to me.Yeah I am biased can I tell?😅

Well this is certainly a perspective you don't see often! Someone who thinks Helena deserves better than Mark Scout rather than the other way around. Definitely refreshing.

So, I think there are different layers to my response to this.

One is similar to the argument @kestrel-of-herran made recently about whether Helena and Mark could ever work given the baggage of Helena being the heir to the "wife in the basement" company. You are sort of suggesting the contrary; whether they could ever work given the baggage of Helena being unloved all her life and Mark Scout being a bit of a dick in all his relationships (plus him probably having good reasons to dislike/hate her). But I think the answer is sort of the same: yes, at the moment Helena has more baggage than a cargo plane and Mark Scout is a bitter and damaged man, but they key word is AT THE MOMENT. We are just getting started with these two. We don't know what developments are in store for them next season, but I don't think Mark-induced heartbreak is the story they are interested in telling. First of all, she's so guarded that I don't think SHE would allow herself into such a situation. It's one thing to be fixated on him and play with the fire, it's another thing to wear her heart on her sleeve and show all her cards. Second of all, precisely because her default is to expect nobody to want her or love her, I think the only interesting story to tell her is to have her expectations subverted.

The other thing is that I get where you're coming from in that you want Helena to experience being wanted and loved for who she is once in her life, but it's inevitable that if that happens, it will happen with Mark. They won't create some random new character for that purpose. Because the whole point of this show is that square that formed through severance. The groundwork is already there, so it's only a matter of seeing how they get from a to b. And to me that is what is interesting: like I said above, how do we get from where we are to Mark providing what Helena needs? And I think Mark S is the clue here.

Just as Helly shows us what Helena can be when all the conditioning and expectations are lifted from her shoulders, so does Mark S show us what Mark Scout can be when all the guilt and alcoholism and bitterness is removed. Mark S is a VERY good partner to Helly (as Helly is to Mark - this recent series of posts explains it so well). There are so many examples of Mark S doing with Helly the exact opposite of what Mark Scout did with Gemma (my personal favourite being the whole "I'm nervous" parallel). Mark S would actually be perfect for someone like Helena (which is likely why she latched onto him so quickly). So, just as Helena has it in her to be free and rebellious and openly loving, Mark Scout has it in him to be sweet and caring. The question is why did he become bitter and self-absorbed (probably the strain of their fertility struggles, although I think there's more to it) and how can he 'undo' that conditioning the way Helena can/should 'undo' her Lumon conditioning. And my guess is that it will have something to do with learning from Mark S, reintegration, accepting his pain, his grief, his past, yadayadayada.

So yeah, idk. I'm just happily along for the ride. Also because the vibe I get from Dan is that he's not interest in emotional torture porn for his characters. He does inflict pain, but it's "good" pain. So I think if there's any heartbreak to be had it will be more of the good "But I want to live with you" kind than anything.

[lewyn-martell]

maybe an unpopular opinion, but my journey with "love transcends severance" began with a scoff and a mental "yeah, right". as in, it might be something that plays out thematically along with stronger psychological themes, but by itself it's a bit cheap. and even as a markhelly shipper seeing now plenty of comments from cast&crew suggesting something like it — which i do enjoy —, i still feel basically the same way because markhelly is in fact the most enjoyable a theme like that could play out for me. 

first of all because it's anything but easy. what starts as a base attraction between two people at their most primal becomes extremely complicated by their  circumstances both inside and outside. and second because the stage being set for their love to eventually transcend severance is a practical multifaceted one. there are actual interactions between their multiple sides that inspire all sorts of feelings beyond love and attraction and their connection feels stronger and earned because of it. innie helly completely changes innie mark who in turn completely changes outie helly who has already completely changed outie mark who is reintegrating and so will be completely changed by innie helly: all of this for better or worse and both are equally juicy. tie all this with the fact that both outie mark and outie helly's arcs are primed and perfect for the arrival of an all-consuming transformative love fueling and following their respective paths of learning they have personal worth (both in and out!) and are deserving of it in the aftermath of a profound grief that keeps recycling itself and the breaking free from the cult of your evil family. and so they will learn to stop being the actors of their own prolonged misery.

mind you, all of this with love being the least advisable thing anyone with a Safe&Sound outlook would encourage on these two messy people and yet it doesn't matter. in so many ways they are already on that path because their innie lives matter and the way they will let that touch each other's lives matter. and that is why, with all due respect to the other 3 love transcends severance conversations, is why markhelly in particular is crack cocaine to me instead of the wishful thinking of "it went so right in one side, so why shouldn't that by itself fuel the other?". i am confident though that if severance maintains half of the elegance it had with writing its characters in season 1 that at least two out of these three scenarios will pan out in a satisfaying way. nothing should be that clean and neat, least of all the most complex and messy human emotion.

[cicimellie]

Is it bad that I think oMark could really help oHelena become a better person because he has experienced what healthy relationships feel like? Like, I'm saying all this with the owed respect to Gemma ofc, but I think she would've wanted him to be happy and it sounds like she was the kind of woman who just understands broken people IRL (her job was teaching and we don't really know what but we do know that the best teachers are those who understand their students). I think Gemma's spirit would see through Helena and she would sympathize with how lost and lonely she is.

waittt oh my gosh hi you're my first ever ask ilysm -- AND its about severance???? amazing. see, im kinda torn on the matter! on one hand, i think it would be so great if outtie mark and helena found some sort of happiness with one another, i sympathize so much with how the environment helena was raised in affected her and how we see there was a chance for her to have grown up better (helly) and ofc o!mark deserves to be happy again and the potential for their relationship and the conflict and emotions they'd get to work out is so compelling 😭 but within the parameters of the show and what we've seen, i think it's just ....doomed 😔 like markhelly low-key my ultimate otp right now and i want them to succeed so bad because mark s and helly deserve so many good things but also, i fully acknowledge that mark s EXISTS cause of mark scout's love for gemma and is reintegrating out of that same love and now there's doubt and betrayal and fear after woe's hollow and -- I'm getting distracted. while i don't think gemmark is going to have a happy ending, i think that mark's love for gemma and the still mysterious circumstances of her death and helena pretending to be helly means any goodwill for helena negates that possibility. BUT i think it's tragic because there is such a possibility that mark could make her better sighhhh. i got a little ramble-y but i absolutely love your ask and your take. gorgeous

[bowyer35]

Paradox 🤔 Theory

Much like Cobel being the inventor of the severance technology and having to leverage that information later as a means to an end, I think Helena Eagan is in a similar position.

Her lack of love and inability to socialize notwithstanding, there might be a layer of reality going on that we're not seeing yet that is playing out behind the scenes we have seen.

Say that Helena, right about the time she is losing the fire of Kier, because she is so silently observant about the world, she develops all kinds of unexplainable neurodivergent perception, but to us, we would say she can act like a prophet or like someone who discovers multiverse-theory, etc. The ramifications are, she can see the future, but tells no one.

Cobel is the technical side, but ironically Helena is now the mystical third-eye side of things. So of course, Jame does not love his daughter now.

And here is the real kicker, Helly cleans up Mark's map because his drawing skills are subpar....she doodles a desk lamp drawing

We know that C&M can still play their instruments because the severance procedure does not impact skills. Irving during OTC can still drive a car, etc., so what if...

...everything we have seen happen is because Helena has the prophetic brain ability to know in advance that it is going to happen and sometimes she lets her hormones get in the way and sometimes she gets caught up in the Kier of it all and lets Kier guide her hand. But the point would be, SHE would be the one finally expressing herself through art in these prophetic paintings and it would give the Irving stans another layer of the father/daughter dynamic if they BOTH stand in front of easels in their free time.

So here's where the paradox comes in. There's a concept of cycling/recycling/time loop, etc. We don't know the origins of the shadow selves, the other Mark in the hallway of 2x01, etc., and as a way for the show to tie up all the loose ends with regard to old cars and older tech being mixed up with cell phones and internet access, we may find out Petey Kilmer knew things about such a paradox and was secretly being used by Helena as a mole of sorts before the events of S1. PETEY left notes in the orientation notebook, PETEY left Mark the map of the floor, etc. Helena, through ESP would have access to all these moving parts and scheme to make Lumon collapse from the inside. Helena could assume she could use Petey THEN in the same manner she is using Helly R. NOW, but when Petey failed, she used the PR stunt as the only option to accomplish what she needed to do to fulfill the "prophecy" she was seeing. And she might have trusted Seth with the knowledge that she has this extra ability. There seems to be a kinship of sorts.

But by the end of a series finale, much like Cobel explaining "the numbers are your wife..." I can see Helena explaining "Kier, PE is in a REVOLVING pocket universe...why do you think we call all the paintings the whole Kier CYCLE...I had to find a way to break that cycle...Mark and Gemma were the key..."

Then we get the tragedy of how MarkGemma always had to occur so it could end and MarkHelly always had to occur so Helena's master plan could break the cycle. But when the cycle is broken the show ends, so when you rewatch from episode 1, the cycle resumes...

[lewyn-martell]

kinda want to say what i think would have made for a more satisfying ending of this season for me specifically. just this once and then put this to rest. the crux of my only problem with it, even though i find it beautiful and romantic, is that innie mark choosing helly is like fork spotted in kitchen or something. an emotional beat pretty much identical to every choice he has been making for a long while now doesn’t fully work for me, it doesn’t give that impact, it doesn’t have that oomph. this is the emotional climax of the season, the moment that should have the weight of a thousand suns. every beautiful thing people are saying that this moment represents, which i agree, was already true before in a pretty glaring, obvious way. i know many people are happy because of what this moment unambiguously shows people who weren’t getting that this is the markhelly show, but like. those people have been watching the show with both eyes closed. helly has been the center and the most important person of innie mark’s life since season 1. since the moment she was BORN. he has no feelings for gemma, especially with reintegration not impacting much of anything except for a few memory flashes. in what world would he not choose helly? especially when his life is at a threat of ending the moment he walks through that door?

to get to what i actually wish would have happened, i’d have to start from the start: they should not have made the helena-as-helly thing a secret. maybe for a scene or two would be grand, but we should then have been with her all the way. we would get more of her character and her POV, we would be rooting for her NOT to be found out if they constructed the stakes carefully enough which would be a win for conflict – we’d learn to be on her side as much as the innie’s in a pretty entertaining way. it would also make the helena/innie mark romance hit even more (and even maybe feel less of a violation when we get to see them having sex because we would have seen them falling in love from a Real and True viewpoint of sorts – i mean, the optics of what happened in the show are not exactly a problem for me, but to have actual journalists jump to call her a lying using scheming rapist was probably not what they had in mind and what they were hoping to convey with the scene). being used to her viewpoint, it would feel more horrifying when we get to irving torturing her to get helly to come out (i still don’t really like that scene asnkjasn). and she should be the one to have control over the switch. it would take milchick out of the picture since he should be stopping anything like that pretty quickly. but if it’s only scared inexperienced innies whose feelings are hurt from their friend lying to them all this time (and they should have shown plenty of them actually growing as friends, same as the markhelena romance), it would make it extremely more believable in a more drawn-out scene (maybe even have mark be pinned down by dylan because come on nknsask he would not stand there) and that could also be really good to show the military man coming out of irving. maybe that would stretch our empathy for them, but i mean, interrogation and a bit of torture done by buffoons can even be kinda funny kasjnk i think they could make that work. as for helena, she would be fighting for the person she is that gets to be in love with mark and to have these friends and new dynamics and new perspective and it would be a very interesting thing considering an organic reintegration is one of the key things happening to her this season. with a simple interrogation we could have so much gold in terms of her psychology and maybe the turn back could even be partly an important choice out of love for mark or even respect for what they feel towards her and her innie.

then helly would return and mark would have to deal with this uncomfortable meeting of two worlds, of having fallen for her outie, of not being able to trust and feeling tricked in a more seamless and richer way than one episode he’s out and in the next one he’s in again. because, and this is the most important bit, the reintegration should already be kicking in. by god, they should have taken this plot more seriously. it would feel even more monumental because his worlds are also uncomfortably meeting without his permission. and it would add another dimension to the markhelly rift of the mid-season because outie mark has plenty of reasons to HATE helena eagan and innie mark could be feeling some of that bleeding out. and speaking of outie mark: at this point he should already have met helena at the restaurant and then be hit by the truth that his innie is in love with her. to make things even more interesting, he should try to leverage this tenuous connection he is definitely angry about having with her to try and find out things about gemma, and that would easily give us more outie mark and helena scenes of a more antagonistic, thrilling nature where feelings start surging where they are not supposed to, to mirror the illicit nature of their innies' love affair.

so reintegrating-mark inside lumon, where probably his innie part would have more of the wheel, (my opinion is that he should have had a lot of different “blending states”) would be falling in love with helly all over again while they mend their rift in their teenage romance era and one part of outie mark would have no choice but be aware of it. of maybe not even knowing where his innie’s choices end and his begin. and that baggage he would take to any meetings with outie helly (who, imo, should be pretty conflicted about what exactly she helps mark with or not. should have an excuse to do it just enough to keep him in her orbit and say it’s for the sake of keeping him at lumon, but still have some wiggle room) and their bond would be weird and amorphous, but would be there. and then. THEN. this all leads to our final moments. outie mark should have most of the wheel as a manifestation of a deep desire to find gemma or something. he should get to have that and have his meeting with her after so long. exceptttt that part of him that should only be loyal to gemma turns back for helly (who maybe should be more explicitly at the threat being eliminated after this). out of an impulse of valuing her and valuing the feelings his innie contributes to his whole self. THAT WOULD GAG ME. that would do it FOR REAL. it would still feel understandable that he is expected to go back to gemma when the clock strikes 5 and the work hours are done. but at these moments, during these (final?) hours, idk, he feels like he belongs to helly(na).

[whoreiorcats]

Weirdly enough, I think love not transcending severance should be one of the biggest arguments in favor of Mark/Hellyna. I mean love not transcending severance is the only reason this couple can happen in the first place because Mark S is not hung up on anyone!

I think that a subset of the fandom likes the idea of love transcending severance cause it lines up well with the idea that innies and outies are fundamentally the same people, which if you want Mark Scout to eventually be in love with Helena Eagan, yeah might think you need all the transcendence of severance you can get because that’s a tall fuckin ask.

But ultimately all the examples of love transcending severance all have external factors affecting them (Gretchen and Helena both have memories of that the other doesn’t, Burt and Irving know that they were an item; how could that not change the dynamic? Especially when every party involved was craving connection before any of this happened) and it’s in the MarkCasey wellness sessions we see that what bleed there is just isn’t deep enough if there’s no external push (Mark S sculpts a tree, but cannot recognize why, despite her being literally feet away. If Mark S and Casey were the same people as Mark Scout and Gemma… do I need to explain myself again?)

Anyway, my point being that if people are seeking an interesting continuation of the markhelly storyline, idk the idea that helly made mark s in love with her and Helena, and that Mark Scout has no agency in this, isn’t that kind of lame?? Like story wise, you don’t think most of the non-tumblr-nuance-fucker audience would balk at such a development?

I would much rather see a way more messy exploration of what it would take to get Mark Scout and Helena on the same page than woowoo psychic bonds (while the characters who actually formed that bond are effectively dead. Hello?) if that’s where we’re going with it.

what da hell ever happened to “we’re people, not just parts of people” what ever happened to “they don’t have the right to just turn us off”!?!? I just can’t ever really let go that severance’s core is an ethical dilemma and I don’t see a world where that dilemma is sort of brushed aside with “well they’re the same person fundamentally! Yay!!!!!”

Never forget that Dylan is the one who suggests that love transcends severance (IN REFERENCE TO HIM AND MS CASEY) and even he is like nah I don’t really believe that.

A lot of things definitely transcend severance, a lot of feelings! (pain, illness, emotional distress, contentedness, attraction, infatuation) But like, love is not a feeling (it’s a choice, that’s my hot take, a choice about prioritizing another person in your life, not necessarily above all others cause love takes a lot of forms, but it definitely involves making another person a priority) and if it could transcend severance Ms Casey and Mark S would NOT act the way they do around each other.

They quite literally do not care about each other beyond a sense of duty for one’s fellow man. Like yes they were going through a rough patch before the “accident” but they certainly still loved each other and they both seemingly spend most of their waking hours thinking about the other, and it’s still not enough to cross the severance barrier.

Gemma’s longing for home, her alienation, her anguish makes their way to Ms Casey, but her love for Mark does not. Mark Scout’s grief and sorrow make their way to Mark S, but his love for Gemma does not.

Mark S wants to help Ms Casey, but he accepts there’s nothing he can do and sits back for the rest of his wellness session. Mark Scout would literally kill himself and everyone around him before he would accept letting Gemma stay down there.

Ms Casey appreciates that Mark S wants to help her, but knows there’s nothing he can do, so she does her job one last time. Gemma would sink her nails into Mark and never let go if she saw him. But here they are, walking away from each other.