#ml chameleon

[broadwaycutie16]

So like a minor pet peeve of mine: when people say that Marinette should've told Adrien about being threatened by Lila in the bathroom, his advice isn't coming from nowhere and isn't ignorant... because he was calm with Lila and she assaulted him as an akuma anyways, so Marinette being brazen makes him think that Lila would do something even worse to her.

I feel like people should acknowledge more that both of them were hurt by Lila in Chameleon.

Yeah. There’s also Adrien’s abusive upbringing to consider. But the problem I have with people saying that his high road advice is stupid and completely and obviously flawed logic is that Marinette tried to use the direct approach, and as we can see, IT DID NOT WORK. Going after Lila directly just gives her the opportunity to make herself look like the victim. I don’t care how popular or nice you are to people, you don’t just point the finger at someone for lying and give the justification of “because I said she’s lying, that means she’s lying”. Adrien clearly saw the way Lila was able to turn the tables on Marinette whenever she spoke out, so it’s not all that dumb for him to decide that waiting until her lies caught up with her was the better, more effective approach, as to not prolong the exposure by casting doubt with baseless accusations.

[username8746489]

Watching Chameleon again after the entire salt phase in 2019/2020 is crazy because after all the fics demonzing Alya and Nino for not believing Marinette, it's then shown that Marinette. Literally doesn't tell them any proof besides "She said she's friends with Ladybug" in a city where EVERYONE has a parasocial relationship with a teenage boy. Like she doesn't even mention that Ladybug herself showed up?? Do you know how insane Marinette looks in that scenario

[new-kit-on-the-block]

I’ve seen some people say “Well, Ms. Bustier’s class has met a lot of famous people, even some of their classmates are celebrities, so the things that Lila said wouldn’t really seem like too much of a stretch.” and you know what? Fair enough.

When you take into account everything that these kids have seen and all of the celebrities that they’ve met, it’s not entirely unbelievable that Lila would’ve too.

However, even if you do get past the absurd idea that they would all believe every single thing she says. Even to the extent of believing her word over everyone else’s, including Marinette’s, who is arguably the most well meaning student in the entire class despite her own issues. That still leaves one problem:

If they really are just kind of used to it by now, to the point where they believe these things without question. Then why are they so enthralled by everything Lila says? 

Yeah it’s still cool, but they’re all constantly surrounding her and hanging on to her every word as though the very concept of someone knowing this many famous people is just absolutely mind blowing to them.

Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter and I’m just getting upset over something that happened a long time ago. But I just wanted to get this off my chest.

This show is going to be the death of me.

Anyway, happy 4 year anniversary of Chameleon being released.

[iwasbored777]

I keep joking how Lila's obsession with Maribug makes her bi but I FORGOT WHEN SHE PINNED HER LIKE THIS GIRL WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE HERE TO GET HER SCARED OR HORNY?!?!?!?!

Maybe both?

Lila be like "are you horny now? No? Ok how about we switch places maybe you'll get horny then? What? You're not into this? How is that even possible?!"

[starryknightwrites]

Some Thoughts on ‘Chameleon’ and Why They’re Both Right

(and wrong)

I missed the initial ‘Chameleon’ drama and I feel very lucky for that. But now with Lila becoming plot relevant again, I fear the fandom is in for Chameleon Part 2. I wanted to explore and validate both Marinette and Adrien’s approaches and why their weaknesses are also their strengths.

Firstly, there is Marinette- who decides it’s best to expose Lila for her lies and manipulation ASAP. Lila is a personal thorn in Marinette’s side. Marinette and Ladybug are nothing but a roadblock to Adrien in Lila’s eyes and she treats them as such, slandering Ladybug’s name increasingly and inconveniencing Marinette to be closer to Adrien.

In defense of Marinette, this isn’t just personal and her position is understandable.  She has watched Lila steal, lie to manipulate those around her, throw Ladybug under the bus to appeal to Adrien and toss his belongings in the trash. All valid reasons not to trust Lila and to be concerned about her classmates.

Her main purpose for exposing Lila is not to make Lila suffer, be ridiculed and dragged through the streets. It’s because she sees someone actively manipulating her friends and classmates, knows what they are capable of and wants to prevent further harm. Notice she doesn’t stop trying to reveal Lila once Adrien understands she is a liar or when he isn’t present. That wouldn’t be the case if all Marinette cared about was her personal Adrien-related vendetta. Marinette cares about her classmates and she knows Lila is taking advantage of them.

Marinette feels that she, the only one with this knowledge, has a responsibility to speak up and to share it- a value that her parents have no doubt instilled in her. This is also in line with her finally taking a stand against Chloe after so many years. Marinette is in her “take no shit” phase and nothing in the way she was raised has ever suggested to her that she should have to stand for/cover for a malicious liar.

I’ve seen Marinette be called an intrusive meddler for this, but people who speak up when they know something is potentially harmful instead of standing on the sidelines, squirming and waiting for crap to hit the fan are a necessity. And Lila brought this on herself by lying in the first place- it was bound to catch up with her.

But... Marinette isn’t thinking her actions through either. Her intent is understandable, but her approach is heavy handed and worsened by her initial anger.  She doesn’t try to approach Lila person to person first, rather she barrels through and calls her out as Ladybug- a mistake that follows her throughout the series because Lila holds a mean grudge. She doesn’t consider quietly informing her classmates and instead gets ahead of herself and jumps to make multiple attempts at publically exposing Lila- which only makes her look like an ass and makes a strong enemy out of Lila. She doesn’t even consider building a case against Lila first because- as it is- she doesn’t have adequate proof. She and Adrien only have personal experience to go off of. Anything else is their word against Lila’s.

Additionally, it’s true that Lila is a little psychopath in the making, but Marinette doesn’t know that. If Lila truly was just a lonely girl seeking attention, public exposure wouldn’t be the best route. Public exposure gives Lila an easy deflection tactic, putting the blame on her “mean classmates who humiliated her” instead of herself. It also never extends a hand to say “Hey, what you’re doing is wrong, but it’s not too late to stop. You can still be welcome here.” As we’ve seen, Lila is too far gone for the latter approach, but Marinette didn’t know that when she jumped on the offensive. If the series went in a different direction and Lila was successfully exposed and received a saltfic worthy shaming, I doubt Marinette would feel very good about herself once she settled down. Even in ‘Volpina’, she admits she was too harsh and apologizes.

Speaking of the more gentle approach...

It’s important to note that Adrien and Marinette occupy very different places in relation to Lila. Marinette is a roadblock. Adrien is the objective. Lila has made it clear that she wants Adrien to like her from day one. He’s in a position of power here and, being who he is, he’s decided to use that for good. Adrien wants to be a voice of reason to her and set an example.

Adrien takes a very humanistic approach with people. He doesn’t stop at their actions or take them at face value. He looks for the ‘why’ and what makes them tick. He looks for underlying reasons and he often leans toward the more vindicating ones. He concludes that she is the lonely new kid in need of attention- something he can relate to- and resolves to address the problem with an offer of support and friendship.

 I wonder why Adrien defaults to being the example and the healer when someone wrongs him, even when all signs point to a red flag the size of Antarctica...

Adrien believes that shitty behavior can be repaired if you just love someone hard enough. That’s clear in relation to his father and, while we don’t know a lot about Emilie, we can ascertain her influence on him through the snapshots we get of her through out the series and how Adrien grieves her.

In the Christmas Special, Chat Noir is angsting so hard, he is about to catacylsm the city Christmas tree out of pure spite until he thinks of his mother.

Everyone views Emilie as practically an angel- someone who holds everything together. She strikes me as a ‘smile though your heart is breaking’ type of person, a person who projects encouragement and positivity. She puts that pressure on herself and, in turn, puts it on others.

In ‘Passion’, we learn that Emilie saddled Nathalie with the heavy task of keeping Gabriel’s focus off of the Miraculous and becoming a mother to her son. That’s a lot of pressure. I would not be surprised if she signaled to Adrien at some point that he was responsible for keeping positivity alive in that house and for his father’s happiness.

With this kind of upbringing, is it any mystery why Adrien constantly considers others at the detriment of himself and avoids conflict like the plague?

He doesn’t need to “suffer for his crimes”. He needs therapy and healthy boundaries. Adrien clearly doesn’t like Lila lying or invading his personal space.

He is not Lila’s therapist. He is entitled to set boundaries with her, refuse her friendship and even warn his closest friends about her. His choice to placate rather than act here isn’t necessarily a good one and is representative of how self sacrificing or passive behavior can often negatively impact those around you.

But... he’s not all wrong. His unique humanistic perspective is incredibly useful and, had Lila been that lonely girl, his approach would have been the right call. You can argue that it was still the right call regardless just from a logical standpoint. Marinette didn’t have adequate proof and she made more trouble for herself by attacking Lila head on without thinking her actions through.

Empathy and diplomatic approaches are the answer sometimes- often even. It is trendy nowadays to throw an entire person away for one slight, to see them suffer and pay publically. This trend just begets more bullying and horrid actions. Adrien is able to look outside of actions and see the humanity motivating them underneath. This is likely part nature and part survival tactic. This is what’s keeps him from turning into a more bitter, hardened person.

He slips sometimes like anyone does, but his empathy is powerful and I hope never loses it, but rather learns how to balance it with more healthy habits and boundaries. He’ll need his humanistic approach for when he faces his father’s true nature, not for Gabriel’s sake, but so that he doesn’t let his anger eat him alive.

Let’s also remember that Adrien doesn’t know everything Marinette does. He doesn’t know Lila stole his book and threw it away. He doesn’t know she threatened Marinette in Chameleon. He wasn’t even in the cafeteria to see her manipulating the class into being her personal slaves.

What’s important is that, once Marinette and Adrien see that there are problems with their original approach, they adjust, taking on aspects of the others’.

 Marinette takes what Adrien says to heart and didn’t try to publically expose Lila after ‘Chameleon’. Adrien reached his limit once he realized Lila was being malicious, setting boundaries with her at the end of ‘Oni-chan’ and making the deal with her in ‘Ladybug’ (which was still pretty self-sacrificial but... he’s on a journey).

It’s funny that people give Adrien such a hard time for his lack of action in Chameleon or with Chloe when it is that exact empathy that allowed him to understand and support Ladybug in the Season 4 finale.

The Adrien who would easily yell at and expose Lila after Volpina/Chameleon is not the Adrien who would easily forgive Ladybug for keeping him in the dark all season. It’s just consistent characterization.

[gameguy20100]

If Dustin was Canon: Chameleon.

Marinette: Lila's lying!

Dustin: You seem to have mistaken me for someone who gives a damn.

Marinette: But...

Dustin: But nothing! You're hardly a saint yourself. All you've done is go up to her and go "nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!"

[flightfoot]

Honestly, when I first processed what Lila was doing I thought... "OMG the entire class needs to be protected. " What is doing to Marinette is obvious, and overblown by salters (what is happening to Mari is bad, but the salt on everyone is gross, they did nothing wrong 😒 )... but she is also harassing Adrien... and taking advantage of the entire class by using their kindness for her selfish wants. This is terrible, protect the Miracu-class! 😨😰

Yes! Honestly, the class are victims in all this as well. Nothing too bad in Chameleon - she's taking advantage of them, but she's not really harming them beyond that (she's pretty sleazy with Adrien though) - but they're still falling prey to her little scams. It's not just Marinette.

[starguardianniom]

Best fake hero/heroine (villain) in Miraculous Ladybug

Chat Blanc all the way, with Volpina second.

[nobodyfamousposts]

Do you think people cling on too much to Adrien's high road advice as a reason to salt on him?

Yes, especially when there are plenty of other reasons to salt him that have previously been ignored. But to that end, it DOES serve as the final straw for people after a SERIES of problems that had previously gone unaddressed.

Much like many aspects of the show, Adrien has displayed problematic behaviors that have been overlooked and waved off in the earlier seasons. This is likely or especially due to the way how in each and every incident, Adrien was narratively shown to be correct. In his stance. In his choices. In his behaviors. He was always right. It doesn't matter if he shouldn't be, because he is.

Now unless you're a hater or anti or salter or whatever negative name people tend to get for not liking a story as it's presented, readers and watchers tend to follow along with the narrative as it presents things and how it presents things. It's a common setup in any story. Protagonist Centered Morality, I feel framed best by Susan in the Discord series:

Susan: ...and then Jack chopped down the beanstalk, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.

Pretty much this. Most people will follow what the narrative says because it's the narrative. If the narrative wants you to focus on Marinette being embarrassed, you're going to focus on how much she's cringe. And if the narrative wants you to view Adrien as a perfect sunshine boy who never does anything wrong, anything he does is going to be framed through that lens and it's difficult to break from that view and call out the times when he is wrong. Not unless he does something particularly severe.

It should be noted that outside of Chameleon, Adrien had, among other things: lied to his partner, caused someone to get akumatized and had his partner take the blame, was messing around during life-threatening and city-threatening situations, did nothing as Chloe tormented people right in front of him, DEFENDED Chloe after she tormented people right in front of him, bailed on an event with friends to set up a date with someone who said she had other plans and then got mad at HER for it, tried to flirt or confess in the middle of an active crisis which took necessary attention away from said crisis, caused himself AND his partner to get hit by akuma powers and needlessly be taken out of commission.

And yet people could mostly overlook these instances. They weren't his fault. Chloe is his friend. Marinette is worse. He's just a kid. He has a tragic backstory. So on and so forth. Easy to overlook. Easy to ignore in favor of the Sunshine Boy setup people were given and want to believe in.

But there were three major instances that really grabbed people's attention and stayed:

His attitude in Frozer. It probably wouldn't have been so bad except this rejection already happened in Glaciator, where he was supposed to have learned a lesson and accepted just being Ladybug's friend and now apparently didn't, despite it happening earlier that very season. Then in response, he decides to date Kagami as a rebound, drags Marinette with him on his date (without realizing how he's asking his friend to be a third wheel on a DATE) and focuses on her when he's supposed to be with Kagami, throws another tantrum in the middle of an akuma fight and refuses to work with his partner when the city is literally frozen, and requires Ladybug to apologize to him for hurting his feelings before he finally working with her. Again. But okay, he's a teenage boy in love. Not used to rejection and got his feelings hurt. Lovesquare is endgame so of course it'll work out anyway, so it's not like this bump in the road is really going to matter long term so we shouldn't hold it against him. Fine. Dumb, but fine. We've forgiven it in other shows and other poorly done teen romances, we can forgive it here.

His behavior in Syren in which he demanded to know secrets from people when the secrets were not theirs to tell him, and went so far as to attempt to blackmail his kwami (which was funny) and threaten to quit and abandon the Ring that the big bad is after while the city is flooded and people were trying to not drown (which was decidedly less humorous). But it was played for wholesome when Plagg reassured him and he got what he wanted by Fu revealed himself even if Adrien did nothing to actually show he earned it, so all's well that ends well, I guess? And people could justify it because "they're partners" and "part of a team" and "she should trust him" and "it's not fair he's the only one left out of the loop" and "he has a right to know" and just general "Fu is an idiot" (which is admittedly hard to argue). So people were disgruntled, but most were willing to overlook it.

His holier than thou lecture to Marinette in Maledictator over everyone being happy Chloe was leaving. When all Marinette was doing at the time was watching everyone else have fun. When Adrien specifically guilted Marinette and not any of the other actual partiers involved who were literally throwing a party over his friend leaving and probably should have warranted a lecture more than the girl just standing there. When the girl in question was also Chloe's main target and out of everyone had valid reasons to be happy that her bully won't be around to bully her anymore. When Adrien himself has historically been present to witness Marinette being targeted including twice he witnessed Chloe attempt to steal from Marinette, once he witnessed her try to blackmail Marinette, and numerous other times when she actively caused harm to Marinette and others. When Adrien then proceeded to sit in a corner and pout rather than do anything else or just leave if the party really bothered him. When Adrien, if he really cared so damn much, could have gone after Chloe himself! Or y'know...have stood up for Chloe earlier when she got upset in the first place. But fine, okay, Chloe is his childhood friend. So maybe he's just being biased and oblivious to the fact that his "friend" is a horrible person. But people can excuse and justify it in that they are friends and friends support each other, and the longer someone is friends with someone else, the harder it is to break from them. And that Marinette was probably just the target of his lecture because she was the one there in the moment (and the only one who would listen without arguing). And her calling Chloe useless was "mean" despite it being quite frankly the least of what she could have said about her in the moment (coughcough theft cough blackmail cough punished the entire school cough TRIED TO CRASH A TRAIN AND NEARLY KILLED HER AND HER PARENTS COUGH-FREAKINGCOUGH). Fine. Childhood friend means Adrien supports her in all her horrible and even deadly actions. Frustrating, but again, able to be explained and you can see where he's coming from.

These are all things that definitely got Adrien some side eye at best and some detractors at worst.

BUT if you really think about it, all of these examples are objectively worse than his lecture to Marinette in Chameleon. Not accepting being told "no" and continuing to chase a girl who isn't that in to him (while leading on another). Putting lives at risk over personal wants that could quite honestly wait until AFTER the crisis is over. Defending someone who is harmful and guilt tripping the victims. Compared to those, telling someone to leave a liar to their lying seems relatively minor.

So why this? Why here? Why is it Chameleon that has people saying enough is enough? Why is it this episode that is causing the sunshine boy to be so tarnished and the subject of salt in fan fiction?

Because this is the time when it couldn't be rationalized. There wasn't even a valid sensible canon-based reason for his stance. The arguments that Adrien "knew confronting her wouldn't work" or that he "handled her like paparazzi" or that he "knew Marinette previously failed when she tried" (even though he wasn't there and didn't know) or that he "didn't think anyone would believe him" don't come from canon. Those were fan arguments made after the fact to justify him after the base was broken and the outcry became too much to ignore.

This case didn't have any of the ties or rationales of the previous incidents. Adrien wasn't defending himself or his place in a partnership. He wasn't fighting for his love or his dream or an outcome he wanted and that we all knew was coming—if anything, he was fighting against her. He wasn't defending a friend like he did with Chloe—I mean, it's pretty evident he doesn't even really know or like Lila at this point, and for all intents and purposes, this is apparently only the second day he actually had any interaction with her. There was no notable reason Adrien really had for why he essentially chose to protect Lila over literally anyone else as she wasn't a friend and it wasn't in his interests to protect her from a consequence that wouldn't hurt her short term as much as it would likely harm everyone else long term.

And yet, he still defended her and her freedom to lie. Over Marinette. Over Ladybug. Over his friends. Over any sense of right and wrong he seems to have no problem throwing around when it comes to Marinette/Ladybug. Which seems like he targets her 9 times out of 10 compared to pretty much anyone else by this point. So it's little wonder then that people who didn't already hate the lovesquare because of the cringe factor from Marinette started to hate it for being incredibly unhealthy given that their relatively limited interactions tend to involve him lecturing her for failing to live up to his double standards that only seem to apply to her in any given situation.

This incident by itself doesn't seem like much, but when looked at as part of the series as a whole, it's when people couldn't keep overlooking this trend. Where he seems to admonish the wrong person. Where he acts like a mouthpiece rather than a person. Talks like he’s wise in a situation he seems to have a childish and one-sided view of. Acts like a brat but is treated as though he has no accountability in the situation he causes. Where he is wrong but no one and certainly not the narrative acknowledges it (not until season five and two seasons too late when it doesn't matter and he's still not the one facing consequences for it).

And it's not like he actually follows the stances he himself promotes. In Chameleon, canon presents him with this idealistic stance that Lila could change if given a chance, except he doesn't give her a chance. He doesn't push her to be a better person. He doesn't support or in any way help her to be the better person he insisted to Marinette she could be. He also doesn't do anything or warn anyone when she keeps lying and actively harms the people he says he cares about. He doesn't do anything one way or the other other than some lackluster encouragement to stop lying and a warning that goes nowhere. It just further gives credit to the argument that Adrien either simply doesn't care about other people, or that he doesn't care for Marinette specifically. Neither is conducive to the lovesquare or the increasingly tarnished view of the "sunshine boy".

And it could have worked. Canonically and intrinsically to his character. His idealism and trust in the wrong person comes back to bite him. He learns and grows from it. Except that, much like with nearly everything he does in canon, Chameleon set it up that Adrien was the writers' mouthpiece and thus was not "wrong". I'll grant that they did have him admit it and apologize to Marinette for it two seasons later, but it is pretty evident that during Chameleon, they intended his lecture to be right, with no foreshadowing and no implication otherwise. And I'm fairly certain they only backtracked and had him do that much because of the amount of fan outrage over the episode.

So yes, I think his lecture in Chameleon was really a final straw since unlike Chloe, Adrien has NO relationship with Lila to justify his defense of her. Especially when the argument is in favor of letting her lie to the people he's supposed to care about. That combined with how jarring it was how most of the class just sided with Lila over the seat issue in the first place, and I think people were less inclined to just ignore the problems in the episode specifically and with the series as a whole as they were compared to the first and second seasons. Not just with Adrien, as we see that Alya also started getting more callout and salt since then as well as more retrospective scrutiny over her behavior in earlier seasons.

But yeah...Chameleon was where things seemed to take a 180, so it's bound to be the deciding episode and deciding incident that sticks out in people's minds with these characters. That's probably why it ends up the go-to for salt and complaints on the characters involved instead of any of the other incidents that would arguably warrant it more.

[broadwaycutie16]

Do you think if Marinette had told Adrien about Lila’s threat, would it have change anything?

Absolutely. Adrien just thought Lila was seeking attention. Yes, she got Marinette kicked out of her seat but that was more like a side-effect of her lies than a direct result. Adrien has also seen Lila at her most vulnerable, when Ladybug yelled at her for making up a fairytale. As far as Adrien knew at that point, Lila was an outsider new kid, much like he once was, who just told wild stories to impress others. Personally, I think he asked Marinette to take the high road because he felt sorry for Lila. I think he believed that she lied about herself so much because she was deeply insecure and self-conscious and she believed that no one would like her if they didn’t think she did amazing stuff.

[celestiall0tus]

Whelp new miraculous officially gets a design, you now what time it is. So, what are the powers of Chameleon!Nathaniel?

Yes indeedy! Let's crack into the second greatest kwami is next to Gimmi, the Chameleon of Imagination

We start this list off with Nathaniel as Changeling in All That Remained. So, much like Reality needing to be scaled back elsewise would be overpowered. That said, his power will fall into the lines of imagination manifestation, but with some clear limitations. He can manifest objects, sentimonsters, sounds, lights, etc.

Activation Phrases:

Transformation: "Vana, stand out."

Power: Sketch

[new-kit-on-the-block]

I still don’t know how to feel about the fact that Plagg was almost completely willing to kiss Adrien on the lips to wake him up from an akuma attack.

Like, there wasn’t even any prompting, he was just like “What do I do?” and he got the idea himself. He was literally about to do it too and the only thing that stopped him was Adrien waking up before he could.

And then nobody in the fandom ever brought it up again.

[iwasbored777]

Imagine this in "Chameleon": Lila: *threatens Marinette* Marinette: What liar does after losing conciousness? Lila: *confused* Marinette: *knocks out Lila with secret move she learned from Marster Fu* She lies still. *comes out of toilet with dark variant of her theme in the background*

Marinette: Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. *keeps walking* The credits roll as Rocky theme music plays.

[is-nino-actually-luka]

You don’t deserve my friendship, or your girlfriend, or your mask!

[gameguy20100]

🔥

Miraculous

Chameleon was not that bad.