#ml rant

[imthepunchlord]

Possibly How It Should Have Been

Gosh, I've just thought about it sometimes, as I'm largely trying to turn my creative focus onto something more enjoyable than ML (hence less writing for ML fics), but sometimes I just can't help but focus on it. Cause it's a great concept and it's butchered and that bothers me so much.

And there's SO MUCH that could've been done to improve it. Some of which could be easy tweaks. Some of which needs massive overhauling. Some of it is just picking a lane, staying in that lane, and you follow the road to progress.

It's a great concept with a LOT of possibilities and ways it could've been done. I've actually thought about possible ML Rewrites a few times, I even reached out to a friend to try and help develop a Rewrite that we could've collabed on cause I was struggling to much to decide, and we both just got stuck cause there's so many options for characters and what could possibly be done as we could see so many pros for each option.

And of course, part of the pondering that came to my mind was seeing promising improvement with kwami swaps.

Like, Marinette and Adrien may have developed better if they had each other's miraculous. Plagg could've been the ideal foil to Marinette as he's the opposite of her in every way, addressing her overworking herself, prioritizing others over herself, and caring so much about her responsibilities that it just weighs and stresses her out. And with Adrien and Tikki, she could've helped him develop as an actual, step up in responsibility, learn to take on duty, to care about others over himself. She also would've helped him get the plot rolling, as Adrien is a stagnant character but Tikki is not. She's going to get him involved into the Agreste plot whether he wants it or not, and in turn, he's going to get Tikki to learn to be more attentive and considerate of her holders cause things can go south for Adrien very quickly if she pushes too much.

Gosh, another great kwami swap that could've been done that could've improved a lot was switching up who are the leads. I always wondered if Tikki and Plagg TRULY would've picked Marinette and Adrien, also if they were even the right picks now that we know that Fu doesn't know everything and is running on limited knowledge. As far as we know, they ARE the wrong picks for these two. And considering there was an ep of Tikki and Plagg picking their own users, I now wonder if Alya and Nino should've been our actual leads.

How Alya was initially as Scarabella screams to me that it would've better served in the Origins as a starting hero. Alya also has promising potential arcs as a starting hero, especially as being a superhero is her living her dream:

There's the struggle of balancing her civilian and hero life, she can learn that the civilian life is just as important.

She can learn that being a hero isn't all glory and isn't always easy.

She can learn the importance of secrecy, and what happens if she exposes herself to the public or to a friend (probably Marinette).

And a lot of the lessons Tikki is involved with would make more sense with Alya, who does get tunnel vision and isn't good at listening to others and isn't so considerate and can be very pushy with her own agenda. Alya naturally aims for the leadership position and Tikki wants her Ladybugs to be leaders, so Tikki can help guide Alya to improve as a leader. Lastly, Alya will challenge Tikki on her call outs, which could at certain points help established that Tikki isn't always right and is open to learn and adapt too. And Alya could busy herself looking into HM, making her theories and being nosy about his identity, which Tikki would readily be apart of and encourage. Which Alya should've done in the show than recklessly trying to expose the heroes identity to the public and help HM win. Which, if Adrien wasn't a hero, maybe that should have been his role instead, which Gabriel could encourage and Adrien is even more excited cause he thinks his father is taking an interest in what he does which can be some later Adrien angst for you.

With Nino and Plagg, the BIGGEST plus is that it would actually give Nino SOMETHING outside Alya and Adrien. It would've prompt him to get more focus, and based on what's seen, he's 2nd to Marinette in having the most friends, meaning he can be more engaging and present with what happens to his classmates. Plagg also could bring some needed chaos to his life. You can even expand upon what's seen in Horrificatr where Nino can be controlling, strict, and harsh so Plagg can work on that. Nino does have some similarities to Marinette where he does care a lot for his friends and is hardworking, so there's something there to make Plagg a bit of a foil to him. To expand on Nino's role as Alya embraces being the big hero and savior, could even do the fandom popular idea of him getting Guardian training.

With those two taken, this nicely opens up others getting the Five.

Marinette can work with either Bee or Fox. If you want to work off Chloe vs Marinette, it works best if Marinette has the Bee. Though I think Pollen's personality should be overhauled, but if not, at least there's a perk that yes man Pollen going to force Marinette to take initiative and decide things for herself instead of seeking advise from her kwami. And with Fox, that can work off Marinette being a meddler, schemer, being creative, and her more inclined to work from the shadows. There could also be a fun twist to explore with Marinette not liking liars and she has a miraculous tied to deception, plus her and Trixx could've been an interesting pair to see interact, especially if working off what's seen in Sapotis where Trixx is very observant and manipulative, but also a bit of a chaotic gambler (from what I've seen, later seasons seem to ruin Trixx as a character). And of course, Marinette having Fox could work off her vs Lila, you could even dabble in her vs Felix.

Arguably, Chloe MAY grow as Alya and Nino would NOT have been so tolerant of her unlike Marinette and Adrien, so Chloe could've gotten the Bee and actually be a good hero and character for it. But that can also come down to preference and how you want Chloe to go.

Adrien could've gotten the Turtle, which I think could've been one of the best miraculous he could've gotten as he naturally likes to be a protector, and this miraculous works off that while also giving him protection. Wayzz also could've maybe addressed Adrien readily sacrificing himself, help him learn to be more cautious instead of rushing in, or at least think and be smart about how you go forward. There's even a possibility of Adrien having Turtle full time, as Nino could share his suspicions with Fu about Gabriel, so Wayzz could be there as a spy to check things out, which would have Adrien eventually get involved in his own plot, but still allow things to be at a slower pace. And as Wayzz, ideally, seems to be serious and dedicated but also playful and open minded, I think he would be very engaging with Adrien, which in turn could mean that when Adrien needs a call out, he would listen to what Wayzz had to say more (as most of the time Adrien ignores what Plagg says).

As for the leads, both would have an equal neutral involvement in the plot that can explain why things don't resolve quickly (looking at you Adrien who won't even ask questions about the suspicious book your father has). Alya would be a hero and lead for glory and self-righteousness, Nino would be to genuinely help others. Neither would have a super close tie to Gabriel, allowing him to sit under their noses for a while.

Also, gosh, you even could've had a lot of fun with color coded rivals/foils/personal antagonists for Alya and Nino.

If you really wanted to do Alya vs Lila, let Lila actually have the Fox or maybe she bought the Fox in Volpina, and this has Alya and Lila having the miraculous the other is color coded for. She could work off being a hero initially for the wrong reasons, just like Alya who starts for the glory too, as well as integrity vs deception.

Something could also be done between Nino vs Felix, with Nino really color coded for Peacock while Felix is color coded for Cat. Could play off both being ambitious to a fault and being selfish and nosy, but Nino cares more for others vs Felix is more exclusive.

And if expanding to others...

Of course could do Marinette vs Chloe if Marinette has the Bee, Chloe could have the Mouse, which could be funny to see Chloe deal with herself. That might humble her.

As for Adrien... could do him and Max being foils, work off Max getting Horse while largely wearing green, and I think Adrien is most color coded for Horse. Could work off both being perfectionist and could delve into the shared interest of gaming, with Max trying to bring out the competitiveness in Adrien. Could be thinking vs action.

Either way, ML is frustrating cause it's a show with potential and great concepts and it's irritating that it got butchered so. And the most frustrating thing is that there is just so many options to how it could've been done better. And kwami swap wise, these are my top two picks that would've been better.

Thank you for coming to my TED talks.

[m3nt4llyr4v3d]

As much as I have opinions on how Miraculous goes about its writing, damn are the ideas it brings up so juicy

Like I feel like there’s something to be sad about how everyone deals with their problems or their trauma. Like, so many of the characters have issues, and it’s so fascinating to think about the way they respond to them

Marinette has the entire safety of Paris on her shoulders and basically in a constant state of trying to fix things even when it shouldn’t be her problem in the first place

Adrien was raised to be as obedient as possible and doesn’t know jack about how to be a kid, literally has no ambitions at the moment, he’s constantly apologizing for things that feasibly wouldn’t be his fault and trying to fit whatever mold he thinks someone wants of him

Chloe’s mom left her and is verbally abusive and calling her daughter a failure for the entirety of Paris to see, so she lashes out at everyone around her and constantly uses her dad’s power. Also the fact that two fully grown adults manipulate her before she’s sent away, just awful

Nino’s best friend has the worst dad imaginable and he felt powerless about the situation wanting to help Adrien (seriously I hope they bring up Guilttrip sometime in the future it reveals a lot of really concerning things about the characters), so he tries to be the best bro to him and give him every experience he can

No idea what happened to Lila as her backstory is uhhhhhh, but that lying, the disguises (she literally came to school in one), and the fake identities had to have come from somewhere. I remember, before the whole 3-moms-thing, theories about her lying for attention because her mom is never home and she’s genuinely lonely, using a scene where she’s talking with Nino and looks actually upset as evidence, so that’s something to consider

Luka’s dad left, and he basically became everyone’s therapist, which he really really really shouldn’t be. We’re told he’s this chill, go with the flow dude, but when your response when hearing your current girlfriend (or at least the in between friend and gf) still likes someone else and saying “I already know that”, that’s just concerning. Dude’s everyone’s therapist, but is anyone checking on him?

Juleka has anxiety and still has unresolved issues with her dad leaving and coming back and (my memory is fuzzy here) not really interacting with her? She’s quiet and keeps a lot of emotions just bottled up cause she doesn’t express them verbally

This is stuff off the top of my head, but damn. As much flack I like to give to this show, thinking about stuff like this is what keeps that little part of me who loved the show years ago alive. Like, I genuinely don’t care what some of the characters have done, I think all of them need a hug and as much therapy as possible

[mamayura]

Rewatching Kwamis choice is still wild

Adrien is doing all the work in the Adrinette development, all Marinette is asked to do is raise her hand at perfectly phrased yes-no questions that already include everything important she can't say. So by all means, she's just not asked to say it at all.

Why are Marinette stans even okay with this? I feel offended FOR HER that the narrative portrays her as needing to have Adrien putting in maximum effort into desperately cuddling her to get even just crumbs of her love, bc apparently Marinette herself could never overcome this without a perfect prince charming mind-reader doing all the work for her to give her the poor little princess treatment for the next half of the season.

Not to mention that this is a pretty icky pay-off for 4 seasons of Marinette making being friends with your crush out to be the worst thing possible, borderlining emotional torment (special shout out to Adrien in Protection basically confirming THAT jfc)

The narrative now agrees with her. In Elation, the episode before this, Chat Noir admits to Ladybug that he isn't romantically in love with her anymore or simply wants to move on now, asking her if she's okay with him loving her as a friend, she says okay

And next episode both leave.

Marinette already wants to leave before Plagg initiates the plan so Adrien can find love and happiness bc already at the end of Elation Marinette categorized Chat loving her as a friend now as him not wanting her at all anymore.

Which I guess wasn't completely wrong bc he left too after this, but at least Adrien tried solving it normally first by being Marinette's FRIEND and only when PLAGG came to him, after Marinette rejected him, he agreed to leave so he can tell her he was Chat Noir and clear up what happened. He immediately took initiative to still pursued her civilian identity/ the hurt girl he loves to make him leaving worth it

Tho, Marinette apparently was already ready to leave Chat behind at the beginning of the episode and only her depressive phase of feeling like she's not worthy of love made her stay with him as Ladybug so his presence can remind her over and over again that he doesn't love her romantically anymore so she can hurt herself emotionally with that knowledge while looking at him?? I guess ??

Why is being friends THIS demonized??

And Tikki had to take the miraculous away from Marinette to get anything rolling, and pretend like the two of them aren't obviously gonna see each other again bc Marinette still is the guardian of the Miracle Box, Su-Han knowing her and Alya still in the know, Rena Rouge and her co-guardian?

What was the narrative's issue here pretending like Marinette made some drastic step here away from everything? Adrien was the one who actually did that.

He and Plagg seriously did all the work, huh? wth :/

For all it is, Alya and Marinette could have just asked Kitty Noire next time if Plagg can now - that Adrien stopped being his holder - quickly come to Marinette and Tikki going to him so the Kwamis can lead them together so they can be friends as civilians.

It's wild that the episode and the fandom are pretending like Adrien horribly abandoned Ladybug for no reason, but, I mean, Plagg made it plain obviously that this plan is going down FOR ADRIEN'S SAKE to find happiness and love by revealing his former secret identitiy to Marinette. Plagg decided to leave, and made Tikki do the same with Marinette, so Adrien can he happy and by extension Marinette.

Meanwhile Marinette, even after having given up her Miraculous, still had all the resources to make it possible that her and Chat Noir can be friends now, but the narrative didn't acknowledge that bc it would require that Marinette actually uses all the resources she has to be the one for once who reaches out and communicates in Ladynoir to keep their bond alive if they, but especially SHE (the one with the resources), wanted it.

But the show can't have that bc apparently being friendzoned is the worst thing on earth, and reaching out and communicating is only Adrien's primary job now in either dynamic

:/

And don't twist my words. I'm saying all this bc I want better for Marinette’s character.

I mean, good gosh, the narrative didn't even acknowledge that Marinette could have finally told her parents about her having been Ladybug to get unconditional and endless support and comfort right on spot.

Not doing that is understandable from ADRIEN'S side, but while Tom and Sabine aren't perfect parents one would think that's one of the first things Marinette would finally have done after she wanted to tell Adrien so badly bc "no one can understand what she's going through"

But no, the episode pretends like that option never even existed and Adrien (and Alya once she's back as Scarabella) is all Marinette got, even when Adrien then leaves after the akuma fight.

Gurl. Go downstairs, tell your parents and eat their freshly-baked goods they're lovingly making for you while you lay crying in their arms, hugging them and telling them what you went through.

You HAD that option on a silver plate. An option Adrien could only dream of bc even if Gabriel weren't Monarch Adrien would still be in serious trouble for having been Chat Noir. Why are we pretending like she has no one and no resources to get help? By all means, that's Adrien and he's doing better - despite NO RESOURCES - than Marinette who has everything bc for some reason Marinette cannot develop much further than this for the rest of season 5 bc Adrien must give her the princess treatment for the love square to work.

Man, I just want better for her. She really got screwed over when it comes to personal development in s5.

Also: RIP Ladynoir

[wilygryphon]

Some ML fans are hoping that Season 6 will make everything from the season 5 finale clearer, that the finale is supposed to set up the next season. Respectfully, I disagree. Setting up the next season should be a secondary purpose of the finale. The primary purpose should be resolving at least some of the previously-built-up plotlines. Especially when the finale is supposed to resolve a multi-season arc, particularly in defeating the overarching villain and dealing with all of the plot points that were directly tied to them, particularly when one of the main protagonists (the villain's son) is left out of the whole thing and never told the truth about both his father (who he's finally started to stand against) and the villain he's been fighting for five seasons. Doing a poor job of wrapping up those plot points should not mean that the next season is left to deal with what should have already been tidied up. Sequel baiting should not override finishing the story that was already being told. There is a reason why Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and The Amazing Spider-Man 2 were criticized for putting too much focus on setting up sequels.

Compare this season finale to Kingdom Hearts III, another "end of an era" installment and the resolution to the Xehanort Saga. That game put a lot of focus on setting up the next saga, but it never forgot what its purpose was. Everyone who was lost and left to a bad fate in previous installments was rescued and made whole. Each villain was given a proper sendoff, even the ones who we would expect to see again. Everyone got to face their particular nemeses again and in some cases vanquish them personally. (Roxas, Axel and Xion fought Xemnas and made peace with Saïx; Aqua and Ventus faced Terranort and Vanitas again, and Terra reclaimed his body and eliminated that incarnation of Xehanort for good; Riku AND Riku Replica overcame the physical manifestation of their dark past selves and mistakes; Sora and Riku (as well as Mickey) defeated Ansem and Xemnas once and for all, and they also defeated Young Xehanort even though the earliest version of the villain was unconcerned; and Sora, Donald and Goofy fought and defeated Master Xehanort. Re:Mind even gave Kairi the chance to fight by Sora's side and defeat another incarnation/Replica of Xehanort.) Now let's talk about the final battle. Sora, Donald and Goofy, with all of their friends helping keep Kingdom Hearts stable, fought and defeated Master Xehanort. Despite being barely able to stand, Xehanort did not want to give up, before Sora and the heart ghost of Master Eraqus convinced him to let go. What did Xehanort do then? He entrusted the light to Sora and gave him the χ-blade, then faded away to enter the afterlife with his old friend. Then Sora fixed everything, and went off to recover Kairi while sacrificing himself.

Would you look at that? Kingdom Hearts III resolved all of its major plot points while still setting up future conflicts. No one kept secrets from their friends, everyone had their moments of catharsis, the villain was not vindicated even if the game turned around to try to make his goals sympathetic at the last minute, and the heroes. Actually. Won.

Oh, and while there are still mysteries and things left to interpretation, the game still made a point to clarify what was going on in front of us.

A later episode in a season can make earlier episodes make sense, but it shouldn't be left to the next season to explain things that the season finale refuses to resolve. If the next season is necessary to make this season good, this season was not and never will be good.

[gameguy20100]

Why am I the only one bothered by the way Kagami has been treated this season?

She gets gaslighted and manipulated by Lila, to the point she becomes suicidal and everyone says she's stupid, sucks, and doesn't deserve to have friends.

Then Felix stalks, kidnaps, and gaslights her into a relationship, and all anyone says is "Aw it's sweet. She can do so much for him."

Like, the fuck? What does she get out of this? Nothing is my answer.

Give the girl a break.

[starryknightwrites]

Does anyone else think the Miraculous writers let a few loud minorities impact their writing to the point of stunting it?

*Leak Spoilers Ahead*

I think there's a reason why Season 1 and 2 are more beloved than the rest. The showrunners let their audience get into their heads and they took all the wrong advice- in the last two seasons especially. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it's difficult to ignore at this point.

A part of the fandom thinks Marinette is a creepy stalker? Let’s explain that away with an unnecessary but sympathetic backstory we never alluded to before, stretch it out for several episodes and make what used to be comedic teen girl hijinks super traumatic so no one can ever interpret it in bad faith again.

 A part of the fandom thinks Chat Noir is an entitled sexual predator who is a brat to Ladybug? Let’s cut his screen time and make sure he never disagrees with her again (unless he’s under a spell we can blame it on) so that he’s the perfect love interest and no one can ever interpret his normal human reactions in bad faith evermore.

A part of the fandom thinks Adrien is so passive he needs to replaced? Let’s have him apologize for his compassion first method and maybe throw a chair or something to prove himself. In the name of love.

A part of the fandom is harassing us about redeeming Chloe? Let’s make it painfully clear how evil she is in a glorified salt fic so that no one can ever interpret her in good faith again.

When people misunderstand your intentions, you don't scramble to "fix it" and try and make things black and white for easier digestion. You stick to your "problematic" guns, dammit. In trying to be perfect and play to everyone, you appease exactly no one.

I think this is partly an unfortunate side effect of the social media era of television. Showrunners never used to interact this much with fandom. Public forums like Twitter are a double edged sword because nowadays they’re a necessity for marketing, but everyone has access to you on there. Every Tom, Dick and Jane with an opinion and no boundaries can rage at you to their heart’s content at all times of day. And it’s easy for us to say “Well, why didn’t they just walk away/delete Twitter?” but even Tumblr users with 80 followers will lose themselves a bit on a bad anon day. I can only imagine dealing with that hundreds and hundreds of times over while also having the pressure of writing the trajectory of a worldwide acclaimed television show on your shoulders that EVERYONE has an opinion about that they are more than happy to rant at you. I think more of us might crack than we expect. And TA cracked.

People with a following have spoken time and time again about how they were unexpectedly affected severely by public ridicule and toxic parasocial relationships on social media. It’s terrible for anyone’s mental health and I think the Miraculous show runners are no exception. The pressure and the push and pull got to them and I think we’re seeing the results of that here. It’s good that TA is stepping away from the show- at least in part from what I gather- after Season 6 because I don’t think it’s healthy for Miraculous or him if he stays onboard. He’s seeing the show now through a filter of all its criticism, of a hundred random takes, and it just comes across incredibly stunted, unnatural and resentful in his writing. Like walking on eggshells and being bitter about it the entire time.

I understand they want to take input from their audience and feel pressure to write the show "correctly", but sometimes fandom ideas- especially the saltier ones- are worse. Sometimes you should just ignore criticism, no matter how loud and long it’s screamed at you, do your thing and hope for the best. At least you'll reserve your energy and passion that way and someone's going to bitch regardless. Sometimes you should write that salt fic just to get your frustrations out and then delete it.

[nathalieswiftie13]

Gabriel's wish rant part 2 it's getting worst

So after all that hard work of fucking up his own cily. Our main man gabriel just decided to bring nathalie back in his last moment instead of raising his kid , facing consequience and die from natural causes due to cataclysm. But no he gets to be a tragic hero who got killed by monarch. BLOWWW I swear to god he's a coward and a fool. Emilie made it clear to him that she doesn't want him to bring her back. Even tho in s2 nathalie mention that gabe promise emilie that he will bring her back but am not sure is he's lying or is the inconsistensy of the show. Inconclusion gabriel's wish is just fucked up and nonsensical in so many ways and its get worse the more u think abt it.

[artzychic27]

Actor au: EVERYONE QUITING MLB. ASSTRUC yelling at them come back only for them to reveal their job offers

Asstruc: You can’t leave me! You think anyone’s gonna hire a bunch of hacks like you?! I’m all you have!

Denise: Actually, all of us got job offers to work for Miraculous: Tales of Scarlet Beetle & Ikati Black. Ever heard of Books R Better Studios?

Gabriel: We’re all getting paid double of the little to nothing you pay us, costume changes, and the background characters are getting recognized.

Juleka: Best of all? *Grabs Rose by the collar and kisses her* On screen gay stuff.

Marinette: And I’m not being written as a stalker who gets everything she wants while everyone else gets ostracized for literally doing what I just did.

Lacey: What else? What else… Oh! There’s no love square, no fake feminism, no secrets kept between friends, no shitty redemption arcs, and no bashing of minors with horrible parents… Unless, you know, they cross a huge line.

Lila: And I don’t have a horrible hairstyle.

Lacey: That, too!

Nathaniel: Face it, Asstruc. You lost. You took a show that was meant to be wholesome, and turned it into something trifling.

Nora: So, naturally, we refuse to be associated with the likes of you. Let’s go, people!

*The entire cast leaves Asstruc’s office. And before leaving, Cosette throws an apple at him and flips him off*

Cosette: That’s for depriving people of my scene with Zoé in New York!

[jeankirsteind]

Marinette’s classmates when they’re hearing Lila’s BS:

It’s kinda ironic some kind Journalists like Alya can be fooled by some petty liar from sausage hair girl who have three mothers and cannot trust her truly friend who tells her that she’s Ladybug.

Well, Such a disappointed finding this show get canceled while Miraculous crap who cannot give us a decent story keep going.

[nothingtherefornow]

And for the love of God, will people shut up about Thomas saying that he destroyed the redemption ark, here’s what people from the show had to say in regards to Chloe.

According to Thomas Astruc on Twitter, Chloé was intially never planned to have a redemption arc and this was purely assumed by fans based on the reveal that she would use the Bee Miraculous. He added that she remains unchanged as her 'purpose of the show is to warn about the people who willingly refuse [to change]'.

Despite the improvements she displayed before the events of "Miracle Queen", Thomas states her character was being presented exactly as she was written; someone who refuses to change and can often pull others into a toxic relationship by having them focus on her potential good and overall suffering, rather than the ongoing cruelty she continued to display towards others.

Although her past explains her act like her mother leaving her as a child, it doesn't excuse the choices she made, and despite the initial changes she made about herself to make up for some of her mistakes, Chloé never saw the need to fully change herself if she continued to obtain what she wanted.

Despite the many chances others were willing to give her to change her ways, Chloé felt such change was not worth the effort if it came at the cost of her privileges.

According to Feri González, colorist for ZAG inc and the ambassador for the show in Latin America, Chloé had never changed at all during the later parts of Season 2, and the entirety of Season 3. She only wanted to be Queen Bee, not only to help others, but to get recognition, her motivations to be a hero stemmed primarily from her own selfish reasons. The series had always presented Chloé's fate and unchanged personality, the viewers simply needed to observe her character for what it was rather than what they had envisioned it to be.

Despite the few moments of good Chloé has throughout the series, Chloé will revert back to her original personality either near the end of the episode or the following to show that she is still the same person. Despite what she experiences or expresses, those moments never made her want to change who she was and are quickly left in the past the moment she knows things are once again within her favor.

Feri states Chloé's downfall was marked in "Queen Wasp; the moment she used the Bee Miraculous to endanger hundreds of lives on the train simply to make herself look good.

Feri states a miraculous is a privilege, it is not someone's right to use. Despite Ladybugs explanation, Chloé refused to understand that the power of the miraculous was not her right to use and had determined it was a privilege Ladybug had wrongfully taken from her.

Although Chloé was quick to resist Hawkmoths control in "Miraculer", her willingness to resist did not stem from her need to be good, but rather from her belief that Ladybug would still provide her the power of the bee miraculous, a power she now felt she was entitled to.

YES !! A HUNDRED TIME YES !!!

THANK YOU DEAR FELLOW INTELLIGENT ML !!

How come the numerous ML fans cannot just accept Chloé as an antagonist who was given the chance to change and become a hero, and who was made to refuse and remain an antagonist for narrative purposes in the end ? Just because Chloé didn't chose the road for redemption doesn't mean it ruined her character.

Chloé may have want to become an heroin at some point, but once she realized that she would not get everything that she selfishly wanted by following this path, she reverted back to her wicked and evil antics.

"I go soft when I became Queen Bee", Chloé said to Zoé in Sole Crusher when she admitted that she had perfect pain relief in Marinette and hasn't taken advantage of it for a long time and so decided to mock Marinette and insult her in order to "teach" Zoé how to take advantage of a sufferer. This showed that for Chloe, making others suffer for her own pleasure remained more important to her than becoming better and acting heroically even if it meant no longer having the bee miraculous. At least the rest of her classmates did their best to act heroically without the help of their miraculous, where Chloe only complained about no longer having the privilege of a magical jewel.

Remember ML fans : "Despite the many chances others were willing to give her to change her ways, Chloé felt such change was not worth the effort if it came at the cost of her privileges."

I also think that Chloé's character was made to perfeclty illustrate what Marinette said to Adrien in Revelation "sometimes the good we see in others is just a reflection of our own, and we ends up being fooled by our own kindness"

Adrien and Marinette both thought there was good in Chloé, and there may have been something good that Ladybug and Chat Noir tried to bring out by giving Chloé a miraculous. But was that little spark of goodness in Chloé really significant or just an illusion since the only thing she needed she to revert back to her antagonism was to no longer have access to the bee miraculous ? While both Marinette and Adrien don't need to have a miraculous to act heroically and be good people ? In the end only Ladybug and Chat Noir's kindness stood up when they tried to help Chloé becoming a better person, but Chloé didn't live up to the faith they put in her

[nono-bunny]

Marinette becoming the guardian was the worst thing to happen to ML imo

Like I kinda feel like the entire purpose behind making Marinette the guardian was to invalidate the “Adrien should have been the main character” beyond the whole thing with Thomas calling people misogynistic, except it backfired because she’s a terrible fucking guardian? Like legit even when she was merely a guardian apprentice she did an awful job, and while I personally believe that she’s also a bad Ladybug in general... That’s much more subjective than her being a bad guardian who is solely responsible for her predecessor's downfall and for losing all the miraculouses to HM

Like even beyond my own personal growing dislike of her, Mari/LB salt has just been on a pretty steep rise ever since she was given more narrative importance in season 3, because she is legitimately unqualified for her role and keeps messing up in really annoying and stupid ways she doesn’t even learn from. I know a lot of people are aware of the ways Adrien/Chat became a worse character just to lift Mar/LB up, but like. Even she herself became insufferable once she stopped being merely a lucky teenage hero doing her best and went straight into being the undisputed leader of all Parisian heroes- she legit just doesn’t have the benefit of the doubt anymore. Her incompetence used to be a relatable and endearing character trait, but now it just truly feels out of place with how the show expects us to believe in and root for her when she’s just given power ups or narrative prizes every time she majorly fucks up. Failures aren’t the end of the road, and that’s a good message for a TV show to portray, but at the same time they shouldn’t be ignored beyond serving as one off emotional hooks the show uses as an excuse to launch into a completely different character state almost entirely off screen. There is literally nothing about season 5 that explains why the “reverse love square” is happening in it specifically out of nowhere, nothing to explain why ONLY Mari got a random visual upgrade in season 4, and there’s nothing that makes sense about how the solution to most of the part-time heroes being exposed is to just employ more of them.

I have always been a pretty vocal fan of Chloe, and obviously I hate what happened to her in Miracle Queen and season 4, but she absolutely wasn’t the only victim there- pretty much all of the plot stuff I truly actively dislike about ML now are a result of that episode, and more specifically, of Marinette now being the guardian. Master Fu was a shitty mentor and guardian, for sure, but... I infinitely prefer him in the role than Mari, because the moment she assumed the role in full was the moment I truly started disliking her, and, honestly, even the show itself to a degree. With great power comes great responsibility, and Mari isn’t responsible enough to be able to carry it alongside the heavy burden of being the likeable main character without failing at both, unfortunately.

[hufflepotato-18]

OKAY SO. WHEN ADRIEN SAID “IF NO ONE FINDS OUT, IT WILL BE ALRIGHT”, MARINETTE DIDN’T KNOW HE SAID THAT BECAUSE HE’S CHAT NOIR AND HE WAS REASSURING LUKA IT WAS OKAY FOR HIM TO KNOW HIS IDENTITY.

AND WHEN MARINETTE SAID “LADYBUG AND CHAT NOIR WILL ALWAYS PROTECT YOU”, ADRIEN DIDN’T KNOW SHE SAID THAT BECAUSE SHE’S LADYBUG AND SHE WAS REASSURING LUKA SHE WOULD PROTECT HIM.

THEY DIDN’T EVEN BAT AN EYE BECAUSE THOSE WERE THINGS ANYONE WOULD SAY TO COMFORT THEIR FRIEND.

AND MARINETTE DOESN’T KNOW THAT CHAT NOIR KNOWS LUKA DISCOVERED HIS IDENTITY. IS SHE GOING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH CHAT NOIR ABOUT IT, IN WHICH ADRIEN WILL HAVE TO LIE AND PRETEND TO BE SHOCKED AND WHATNOT, OR IS SHE JUST GOING TO OMIT THIS INFORMATION FROM HIM?? IF SO, WILL ADRIEN FIND IT ODD THAT LADYBUG DIDN’T TELL HIM?? WILL HE BE UPSET??

ARE THEY EVEN GOING TO ADDRESS THIS??

[echobutgirlypop]

Thinking about how a villain’s name is the first thing they hear…

When hawk moth akumatizes someone successfully, parts of them have been pushed back. Their negative emotions have the wheel, you could say. This version of them is incomplete and lacking identity. If hawk moth could not talk to them, they would go on a confused rampage. Since the first words they hear are their name, the name of their guide, and their purpose, they immediately choose to follow Hawk moths plan for them. Basically, once Hawk moth akumatizes someone, he makes them think they owe him everything because he gave them powers and identity. Anyway. Just a thought.

[mamayura]

I just need to be direct about some things for Ladybugs side of Ladynoir in s5 now for a sec.

It's just.. somebody please tell me how I am supposed to believe that Marinette actually learned something from the season 4 Ladynoir conflict or won't continue to just fall further back on her words when Revelation showed that Ladybug will lie and use Chat Noir as bait and a tool again to continue her s4 treatment of him and how he was nothing but the scapegoat/pet/punching bag for her and Alya for the entire season? Something she already in s4 barely felt appropriately bad about until the end of Strike Back had her pull a 180

Marinette literally proofed in Revelation that she has in fact either not learning anything or doesn't think Chat Noir deserves a better treatment, season 5 just didn't give her the chance to pull this more often because there were no other heros. What am I supposed to expect from her in season 6 now taht the entire team is back?

How am I supposed to think that Ladybug is capable of having a partnership with Chat Noir were both of them are allowed to make mistakes without getting punished for it when Derision is literally the episode about how her being bullied and publicly humiliated is the core of her trauma and yet the same episode has her go back and put Chat Noir at the risk of the very same thing by her own hands again because of the lucky charm plan, and as per usual HE apologizes for having been emotional and yet she never takes accountability for how she then proceeded to use him?

So people in season 4 were right? Ladybug is not capable of behaving normal in this partnership, the moment Chat Noir makes a mistakes or has a bad day or is affected by a power she will continue using him then however she pleases. Is she just not capable of coming up with other plans? Can Chat Noir really not exist in this partnership without being at the constant risk of being turned into a tool and scapegoat while being humiliated in their dynamic the moment he does something wrong? Is the only way of preventing that Chat himself not making mistakes again because Ladybug can't be asked to not do this shit to her partner?

Or can Adrien for once NOT be the only one to apologize in situations like that? I wouldn't be as harsh on what she did in Derision if Psycomedian in season 4 didn't exist where it was already established that Ladybug takes it for granted what Chat Noir puts up with for and from her and that got maxed out for all of season 4. And yet in season 5 Derision we are somehow not one step further? Can she not just say "Hey, about the toilet thing. Sorry that I went after you there, it was my first instinct because the power was to act out the meanest humor. Sorry for having used you like that again though, I will try to do better"

In the context of what Marinette's traumatic backstory is that plan of hers showed 0 self-reflection and once again puts all pressure on Chat Noir to not make a mistake around her or else she will apparently go back to her old ways without feeling bad about it. If Ladybug never clarifies anything then the episode just had her indirectly tell him that this is still what he has to expect from her when he has a bad day or whatever. Just like with Ladybugs violence in s4 she was never asked to take an ounch of accountability for and teached children bad lessons on how to treat friends several times because she's a girl and can get away with it, Derision has her indirectly reinforce that Chat's responsible for her treatment of him. He needs to do better to prevent her from pulling stuff like that because she's "justified" in whatever she does to him anyway as s4 teached us.

Or the fact in Migration neither Marinette nor Adrien know for sure if their partner knows that Luka knew their identity and Monarch picked up on that, and yet only for Adrien one can make a legit argument for why he didn't bring it up and that's the fact that Ladybug and Luka left him for so long all alone in the akuma battle that he would rightfully assume that this is were Ladybug and Luka talked about everything. Marinette on the other hand has no excuse for why she is keeping the fact that Monarch knows that Luka is aware of both their identities a secret from Chat Noir. It's yet another impossibly irresponsible secret directly concerning Chat's life and possibly the safety of all his civilian loved ones she just keeps from him and can't be criticized for because it's Marinette.

So she learned nothing from season 4 and stuff like Ephemeral?

Or even just little moments like Marinette proudly confirming to Alya behind Chat's back that she had him wear the insult paper in his bell for an entire season and them laughing, when it should be a no brainer that Chat didn't agree to wear it so she can tell it others behind his back for him to be laughed at. He trusted her that nothing bad would come out of it and yet that's what she did the moment Alya was there. That is such an awful thing to do. You don't do that to friends. Thats what I expect from Chloé, not Ladybug in Ladynoir.

Or in Réunion when Jeanne was talking down on Chat Noir because she is projecting her own Black Cat issues on Chat by insulting a 14 year old boy for not looking like a full grown man and Marinette.. agrees. One episode prior Marinette was gushing towards Alya about Chat's looks, muscles and whatever but the moment Marinette is insecure in front of an adult Ladybug who isn't all nice to her she directly agrees with insults unfairly directed at Chat Noir through backhanded compliments about "but he's very loyal" because at least it isn't her? And right in front of Chat too?

What's even worse is that Adrien couldn't see or hear Jeanne so from his perspective he literally just witnessed Ladybug agreeing with an insult about him spoken by a past Ladybug while he can't at all defend himself. Chat has no way to tell if the past Ladybug isn't constantly insulting him because apparently his Ladybug won't even disagree or sees any problem with that, and neither does he know if that already went on prior to meeting him.

It's moments like that for which I'm genuinely glad that he rejected her next episode in Elation. Why would he want to still date Ladybug when shes agreeing with insults being directed at him? Adrien was noticeably more insecure from then on in Réunion because he just doesn't know how hard he's being trash-talked and Ladybug just agreed :/

And then of course there is Kwamis choice right after Elation which.. dude, from Adrien's perspective he rejected Ladybug ONCE and then she fucking LEFT. Instantly. Adrien learned that episode that Ladybug herself is apparently a hypocrite and can't take a no either. Their entire partnership dynamic demands of him to be her yes-man and never ask for anything, never saying "no" and if he does than she stands under no obligation to respect it like when she still just uses her guardian privileges to overwrite him having renounced his Miraculous.

And then she for the first time actually had to respect Chat telling her "No" about something and she left. The ending of Hack-San is meaningless now because of Kwamis choice!

Season 5? What am I supposed to do with stuff like that for Ladynoir? Did Marinette learn something in the Ladynoir conflict of season 4 or only partly and I have to expect her regressing again and going back on her words because she was never properly called out on anything? If calling her out is the only way Marinette can learn then why is no one asking BETTER of her in important stuff like this regarding Ladynoir?

Did Marinette learn something or nah? Or will you at least have Alya want better for Chat Noir when Marinette herself already can't do it?

[gameguy20100]

Anytime I call Feligami abusive people always say the same thing.

"Oh, but he's so sweet with her."

Well. Yeah. That's how abusers lure their victims in. No relationship starts off as abusive.

Ask any victim of abuse. They will all say some variation of "Well. At first, it was great."

And Felix and Kagami have been together for what? A couple of weeks? And she's spent the majority of that time being locked away by Tomoe like she's a bloody Disney princess.

All she wants is to make her own decisions for a change. And for Adrien and Marinette to be happy together because they're the only two people who she knows love her.

And Felix comes in and claims he can make that happen as long as she does what he says like a bloody genie! Of course she's going to jump at that chance!

And it doesn't help that Kagami is 100% NOT over Adrien and Felix looks exactly like him. Kagami's doing the same thing to Felix as she did to Adrien when they were together. Projecting her desires and dreams onto him without really understanding him.

Except unlike Adrien, Felix is aware of this. And is using it to his advantage.

Nobody needs a hug and therapy like this poor girl.

[feathers-blown-in-the-wind]

I'm just gonna say one thing about this episode

The Mari//chat stans are gonna be insufferable and it's gonna be an awful week if we don't get Kwami's Choice until next saturday

The episode wasn't bad per se but I dread the fandom's reaction so much it's insane

I'm just scared that half of the fandom is gonna try and twist everything in the episode into bullshit like "true selves theory and reverse love square is the only way for the square to work and blablabla I'm so smart, have you seen my totally fanon and OOC Marichat fanfic that's obviously better than canon" when they clearly misinterpret half of the show to fit their narrative and it's frustrating.

But hey we're only missing a Ladrien kiss now to complete the square so that's a good point for this episode

To be clear I didn't hate the episode. It's definitely not my favorite but it was fine really. I'm just frustrated I spent the whole episode wondering how people would twist everything and it left a bad taste in my mouth. And I take full responsability for that because I shouldn't have had this mindset watching the episode but what's done is done and I'll need time to cool off a bit before actually going in depth about anything in this episode

I'll probably watch the episode again later to be a bit more constructive and less biased because of outside factors but I really really don't want any Mari//chat stans clowning around other corners tag and I don't think we can avoid it at this point

I'm very excited for Kwami's Choice though because they did a great job setting it up and I wanna see the pay-off