#mlb derision

[motherofplatypus]

Since the finale is just around the corner, complete with a whole mountain of salt, I wanna throw one last salt before the tsunami.

I will never find it not ironic that this line basically saying your circumstances doesn't excuse your behavior, DURING an episode excusing someone's behavior because they have some circumstances.

Anyway, I'll see you all in the finale. I hope you all stay sane after that.

[papyrusgayfont]

* hey do you think the reason Marinette and Alya became friends like, almost immediately, is because Marinette saw Alya stand up to Chloe, without fear, just like Socqueline? And so that’s how she knew she could trust her.

* like I highly doubt that’s what the writers had planned all along lmao but like hmmmmmm what if

[silverforestry]

Derision is my entire case for why this show needs a reboot ASAP. I loved the approach of maneuvering Marinette’s issues as a product of bullying because, as someone who was bullied, I wish more shows were willing to dig into how much that messes someone up.

The obvious issue is that none of this was built up to in previous seasons—just Chloe being a jerk—so it feels awkward to long-time fans and anyone who was banking on Chloe redemption. There was zero consesus in the writer’s room at any point, I can feel it. I think this could be so well done if it actually fit into the story—if Socqueline existed before this season, if Marinette had a stronger aversion to Kim, if more of her classmates looked at the situation with Lila and were able to see the similarities with Chloe… so many things.

I think a show as significant as this one will see many spinoffs and additional properties, so hopefully the story is handled better in the future. My last prayer right now is that the movie is good so I can abandon one canon for another.

[ijustliketoreadstuff]

Why it was different with Luka

Knowing what we know now from “Derision”, it makes sense why Marinette didn’t research Luka. Marinette already got to know who Luka was personally under normal means, and because he didn’t have any connection to Chloe, she didn’t need to be as cautious about him.

Back in “Silencer”, Luka had already proven himself to be more than trustworthy as he was someone who would not sit idly by as those with selfish intentions attempted to belittle and wrong her.

But what ultimately made Marinette realize that she did not need to fear a relationship with Luka, was learning that he was somehow always there for her when she had no one to turn to, such as in “Heart Hunter” when the stresses of both her hero and civilian life became to much for her to bare and prevented her from being more open about her struggles, who she was and how she felt. Somehow, Luka had a way of knowing when she was conflicted about something and would waste no time attempting to understand her and her situation before giving her advice no one else knew to give her, even being willing to take action if and when needed. 

Granted, their relationship couldn't work out due to personal matters, but the major difference between her relationship with Luka and Adrien, was that she already got to know who Luka was, but she was still getting to know who Adrien was behind his fame, his rich status, the image of perfection companies advertised him as, and most of all, his friendship with Chloe.

For Marinette, there were things about Adrien that she already knew, but there were also things about him she realized she never knew, such as in "Risk" when she discovered how much he actually hated his life as a model.

Although she and Adrien want to get to know each other better, it was the fear of the unknown that made her wonder if Adrien really was the kind person she thought he was, or if he was just pretending to be nice to her so he could catch her off guard later, like how she thought Kim was only nice to her in the beginning to go along with Chloe's plans later. Despite knowing Adrien loved her and would not intend to bring her any harm, there was still a part of her that couldn’t help but doubt it all and wonder if she was actually good enough for him, after all, if she wasn’t good enough for Kim to hold in higher regard than Chloe, the girl who he favored all along, then how could she be so sure that she was good enough for Adrien(the rich and famous model) to consider over the word of his childhood friend, who was also Chloe. 

Back in "Sand boy, when we discover Marinette's greatest Nightmares was learning that Adrien was in love with Chloe, we only ever assumed it was natural for Marinette to feel this way, but looking back on things now, her fear of Adrien being potentially in love with Chloe had stemmed from her hidden fears of reliving her past mistake of allowing herself to love someone else so easily without being more cautious.

 The level of trust Cat Noir built with Ladybug, is why Marinette was able to accept Adrien’s affection in “Ephemeral”, because no matter what Marinette feared, she was at least able to find comfort in knowing that Adrien really was always there for her and would always be there for her. But with the two of them together now, without knowing each others identities, things are different. Marinette needs time to accept that being with Adrien is nothing to fear, and Adrien in turn was more than willing to be with her through every step of the way.

[eddo-tensei]

More thoughts on Derision (Spoilers, obviously)

I think it's amusing that the default counter-argument to anyone who criticizes this episode boils down to "Well, you're just a Chloe Stan!" Which is something I had to deal with myself recently. Apparently, you can only hate this episode if you're a Chloe apologist. First off, hi, I'm Eddo. I wrote a fanfic where Chloe literally gets thrown into the dirt and suffer an allergic reaction to cacti, both times being her own fault. I feel like my Chloe Stan license should be revoked after that.

Anyways, I'm not surprised with the direction they went with Chloe in Derision. It's been stated since around Season 4 that Chloe was on a "Damnation Arc", so they've been doing everything they can to make her worse and worse. So, I'm not surprised or even angry that they continued this here. I'm annoyed, but not angry. What I AM angry about would be the other characters who got mangled in this shitshow.

Writers? Could you please stop having Chat threaten people with Cataclysm after he's shown regret doing it to people by accident TWICE?! This has happened three times now, counting what happened with Scarabella. Yes, I know he did this before with Darker Owl, but that just makes it worse because that happened right AFTER he regretted doing this to Monarch. You know, the guy who's been tormenting and attacking everyone for over a year? I guess to Chat, Damocles and Kim deserve it more for ripping away a fantasy and pulling a shitty prank respectively.

I know I complained about this a lot already, but this needs to be stressed upon. If we're going to take Cataclysm seriously, especially with what later episodes showed us, maybe DON'T have your hero threaten people with it for relatively petty reasons? "BUT IT'S FOR TRUE LOVE!!!1!!" Yeah, no. When he tried to do it on Darker Owl, Ladybug told him to cut that crap. It then happened again with Dark Humor with Ladybug telling him not to do it. It doesn't matter if it's for "true love." Both times he did this so far, Ladybug made it clear that this was a bad idea. So, maybe you guys should stop trying to encourage it. I refuse to believe that Chat believes that Monarch is more deserving to live after everything that he did than Kim after what he did. Speaking of Kim...

My friendly neighborhood dumb jock, why would the writers do this to you? When we only had the leaks to go by, I actually tried to scour for any interactions Kim had with Marinette and I can confirm that with the revelations we got in Derision, they REALLY don't make sense. Yes, Kim was a bit of a douche in the first season. Origins had him push Ivan around to the point of being the trigger for the Akuma. But he wasn't THIS much of a douchenozzle. Moreover, I have a hard time believing Marinette would be as friendly as she is with Kim throughout the series given what he did to her as revealed in this episode. Also, I know this is going to sound offensive, but...Kim was Marinette's first crush? Really? That's what you're going with? I'm not trying to insult Kim, but there was NOTHING that hinted to this. I can't help but think this was the thought process of the writers when they brought this up:

"So, we need to have Chloe do something to Marinette that would explain why Marinette struggles to be with Adrien. It has to be something big and traumatic. More importantly, it has to involve Marinette actually having a past crush that Chloe ruined and it has to be a character we're familiar with, so we can't make up an OC for it. We can't use Nino because he had a crush on her and it wouldn't make sense for her to reciprocate. We can't use Nathaniel because his crush went almost completely unnoticed by Marinette and he's also gay now. We can't use Ivan because he likes Mylene and we can't complicate that. We can't use Max because most people think he's ace and subverting that would piss a ton of people off. Oh, and we can't have it be any of the girls either because our show would get cancelled if Marinette isn't straight. So, let's just make it this guy."

"This. Fucking. Guy."

I'm having a hard time thinking of any other reason. I know some people theorized in the past that Kim and Marinette might've had a thing, but I don't think they held any water. Even now, however, I really don't think people should be happy it was canonized in this way.

I always held the belief that Chloe was responsible for Marinette's behavior, but my idea of it was that Chloe had been bullying Marinette for a long time and those years of sustained bullying took its toll on the poor baker girl that made it difficult for her to not only open her heart to people she loves, but have difficulties making friends in general until Alya came along. Yeah, Chloe doesn't look good in this case either, but it would've been more reasonable and would probably resonate with a lot more people who probably had to deal with bullies messing with them for a long time because these effects usually aren't instant. They get built on for a long time and it can really mess up their perception on things.

I think a good story would've been Marinette having to heal from that sustained trauma and while it is difficult since nobody can just quickly heal from trauma, it'd be a good journey for Marinette to be able to open up again with Alya and Adrien being just the first two pieces Marinette needs for her recovery.

But now, instead of all that, it turns out Chloe just pulled a prank that just unleashed a cavalcade of trauma on Marinette all at once that is hyper-specific to how she handles her crush that Adrien and ONLY Adrien can heal. All the while, it turns out that the prank was actually pulled by a guy who I really thought was just kinda fun and cool, but now I can't talk about him in the same way again because he's been thrown under the bus for the sake of this nonsense plot that's difficult not to call a full-on retcon. Do you know what I can call a retcon, though? Or rather who?

I am sorry to all of the people who are probably stanning Socqueline right now, but I CAN'T vibe with her. I'm not saying you're not allowed to like her either, because that would be dumb, but I DON'T like how she was presented in Derision. First off, to get this out of the way, we're no strangers to characters being introduced out of nowhere. Felix and Zoe are both characters that come to mind. The thing is you can at least explain their respective absences easily. Felix had likely been distant from Adrien for a long time with him only coming in out of obligation with Amelie. Zoe is actually even more easy to explain given that she was shoved into a boarding school by Audrey and wouldn't really be able to connect with any of the characters until she was forced to transfer. Socqueline, however, does not have that luxury and cannot be easily explained away not only with how we found her, but for the fact that there was NO hint to her existing until Season 5 and that is inexcusable given how much importance this character now has. To put it in perspective, this is how we are introduced to Socqueline in Jubilation:

Marinette: That fake Ladybug from this morning, I think it was Socqueline, a school friend from last year. Knowing her, I’m sure she means well. But I have to convince her to stop putting herself in danger like that.

That's it. She just calls her a school friend. Yes, it's clear that she's at least important enough for Marinette to remember her name, she was just called a school friend. At the very least, she did have an interesting story with her trying to be Ladybug in order to help people. Of course, she had to be talked out of it because it's causing issues with the real Ladybug, but it's a decent story and Socqueline had only made a few appearances here and there.

And then Derision.

Yes, Socqueline referred to Chloe as "that monster", so it's clear that they planned her to have something against Chloe since her first appearance. However, Derision showed us that Socqueline wasn't just a school friend. She was Marinette's closest confidant in the school years prior to the start of the series. She actively protects Marinette from bullies, particularly Chloe, and was clearly a huge inspiration for her until Chloe got her suspended from school.

First off, in case I haven't made it clear, we haven't seen Socqueline AT ALL until Season 5. Not even a hint to her existence. So given how significant she was made out to be in Derision, WHY HASN'T SHE MADE ANY APPEARANCES IN THE SERIES BEFOREHAND?! She doesn't even have the excuse of being outside of Paris like Felix and Zoe do because she's STILL there and in an arts and crafts store no less, which probably would've been a great place for Marinette to hang out in with her friends if the writers thought this through. But they didn't and Socqueline's debut comes off as severely jarring because we have this character who was really important to Marinette's life just not show up until she started cosplaying as Ladybug.

Secondly, it muddles Marinette's own backstory as well as severely hampering the significance of Alya. Now instead of being alone with nobody to help her against Chloe, which makes her friendship with Alya all the more stronger, Marinette just had this super cool friend who was always there for her until mean ol' Chloe got her kicked out of school. Doesn't that sound like something you'd see in a fanfic, specifically one that's salting Alya given how Socqueline was depicted as Marinette's BFF?

Thirdly, if Chloe was able to get Socqueline suspended so easily, then why hadn't she been able to do that with the other students? Yeah, she got close with Alya, but that didn't stick. If Chloe really had the ability to just make students disappear even if it happened once, she would NOT hesitate to try and do this again with any other student who slighted her, ESPECIALLY Marinette. But she doesn't. Once her attempt on Alya failed, she didn't try again. Hell, LILA had more attempts to get Marinette kicked out of school than Chloe did and actually got closer to doing it than Chloe would ever get, which is weird since she doesn't have the title of "Mayor's Daughter" to throw around like Chloe would. This just feels like something done to explain away why Socqueline didn't show up in the series which doesn't work because she's STILL IN PARIS and I'm pretty sure Marinette would be more than happy to meet with Socqueline given how close they were, but that never happened.

Fourthly, I'm guessing nobody felt like pointing it out because it felt too obvious, but doesn't Socqueline just come off as the writer's answer to Bridgette? You know, the older Marinette based on the anime PV that some fan writers implement into their own stories? Yeah, she's not one-to-one similar to Marinette like Bridgette is, but it definitely feels like another instance of the writers pulling stuff out of fanon just to put a canon spin on it. And like all the other instances, it's a bad spin.

Lastly, this whole incident with the prank and Socqueline's suspension took place a few months before Origins. Not even a year at the earliest. It was specifically stated that Socqueline was suspended three weeks before the end of the school year. Given how close that time gap, the way everyone behaves in Origins makes almost no sense. Marinette would be a lot more horrified of Chloe if Derision was anything to go by and Chloe would be more willing to try and cast Alya out so Marinette doesn't have any allies given that Derision showed Chloe REALLY wanting to make sure nobody helps Marinette. The only point I could even give any leeway to is Kim and even then, again, he's not that much of a douche in Origins as he was in Derision. So, really, it all just comes off as a blatant retcon specifically to try and explain the new direction the writers are taking with certain characters. And do you want to know the dumbest thing? Apparently, Socqueline was such an inspiration to Marinette that the latter changed her hair to be more like Socqueline's.

No, seriously. That's also how they explain why Marinette has different hairstyles. I know Expository Hairstyle Changes are a thing in fiction, but this is just awkward as hell given how traumatic and melodramatic the whole thing is. You don't need to say that Marinette's hairstyle came from someone who she considered a hero because nothing about Marinette indicated that her hairstyle is important. This isn't like Josuke changing his hairstyle to be based on the man who saved him as a child. It's a purely cosmetic change that's suddenly given a shit-ton of significance because now it's connected to this horribly traumatic incident. In fact, you know what this reminds me of?

Actually, the whole segment where this Linkara clip came from seems to sum up a lot of things wrong with Derision. It's not just bad because it makes some characters look bad or introduces stuff out of nowhere. It's bad because now everything in the flashback is now part of all of the characters! Every prior episode will now have to be viewed with a lens tinted by the events of this episode. Now nobody can discuss Kim without people salting on him for the prank, now nobody can talk about how important Alya's friendship with Marinette because of Socqueline's sudden boost in significance (In fact, it's very likely that Alya salters will try to use Socqueline as a replacement friend), and now nobody can speculate the intrigue of Marinette's past because EVERYTHING about her behavior is linked to this specific incident and nothing else. That's what pisses me off about this episode. That's why I share that Double D meme so frequently. I could care less about how much of a monster Chloe was depicted to be in this episode, but I am going to complain when other characters are butchered in the process. I will complain about one thing concerning her, though.

Isn't it amazing that you can tell the writers are trying DESPERATELY to squish any and all positive interpretations of Chloe, even trying to downplay parental neglect because "this character also didn't have a mom and they didn't turn out this way" even though Mylene's and Chloe's situations are still VASTLY different? You can make the argument that Audrey's absence doesn't excuse Chloe's actions. In fact, I don't think it really does either, but saying that there's only one valid response to an absent parent is EXTREMELY insensitive to people who might be going through similar situations.

Oh, and to cap this all off? This is the favorite episode of one of the main writers. Said writer possibly being considered to be the new director for Season 6 of Miraculous and onwards. I'm not gonna name which one for obvious reasons, but it's been confirmed.

I feel like this is a good indication that you need to hop off this series.

[uptoolateart]

I've been saying for years that I think Marinette will wear her hair down when she truly gets together with Adrien. She had it down when he kissed her in Cat Blanc, he was mesmerised by it at the end of Season 3, etc, etc...and then we saw it in Derision.

She obviously copied the pigtails off Socqueline, out of admiration and maybe to channel her friend's power.

I commented before on Adrien's hair changing when he becomes Cat...and the total lack of hair when using the snake, which Thomas himself confirmed was because Adrien knew he was 'doing some bullshit'.

Hair is a classic personality symbol in film, TV, plays, etc. We read a lot into it, whether we're aware of it or not.

Maybe Marinette will wear her own hairstyle when she wholly accepts herself.

[kaalki-cinnamon]

Socqueline Marinette's protector

[abittersweetraisin]

Ok, earlier today i was asked what my issue was with this "backstory" of Marinette in the derision episode. Well, my problem is on two parts,...

First from the pov of storytelling:

I love it when early in a story the writers give us little details that aren't explained, that sometimes they are even so discreet that they are overlooked. And then later something is revealed and you are like "Oh, now i understand why this and that happened back in season 1!". They leave it clear that they put a real effort in building the story. That everything was really planned. Marinette's backstory feels so fake if we look back at earlier seasons. Someone who has such an intense trauma that they have such a strong reaction just by looking at cereal floating on milk would had shown signs way earlier.

PSTD doesn't go dormant. Anyone suffering from it will tell you. It is a constant and daily struggle. It is clear they just thought of it now to excuse Marinette's stalker side from the earlier seasons.

One day she's in heaven when he holds her hand,

and the next she can't stand it?

I repeat, PSTD doesn't work like that. And what about the episode where Adrien had his photoshoot at the pool? If they have the whole story planned since forever as Astruc claims, then why didn't they add a little nod to Marinette's trauma back then. Or in the Syren episode when Paris was all underwater. Or in that other episode when Alya's sister became a spider themed villain?

My other problem with this backstory is precisely with Astruc and his arrogance which doesn't let him admit he makes mistakes. He messed up with Marinettte's stalker side. And he doesn't have the story as well planned as he says.

Why the need to excuse Marinette's behavior? Because she's the main character? So, what? Main character's can have defects too. Personally i think it's better that they do. Makes them more real, less flat. I don't tend to like super perfect, super good characters. For me it makes them less interesting and even obnoxious.

As i have mentioned before this series remind me a lot of Sailor Moon. And thanks to that and that it has great concepts (even if it has terrible execution) is why i haven't been able to completely drop this show. And trust me i wish i could.

Hopefully all the flaws in this show will miraculously somehow heal after Astruc stops being a writer.

[ninadove]

Obviously I know this is not happening, because Leaks™, but Chlolila could have been a great malevolent equivalent to Feligami.

Hear me out.

On the one hand, we have this young girl who desperately wants to be loved — to the point that it drove her to madness. She has great potential for ✨ Evil ✨ and can plot very efficiently and intelligently when she wants to (as exemplified in Derision); but she’s impulsive and emotional, and keeps getting in her own way.

On the other hand is the✨ Mastermind ✨ with a deeper agenda (supposedly and very unfortunately, given how elaborate her plan is — I still hold out hope that she’s just doing it for the lolz). Not only is she the first person to recognise this potential in her partner, but she is also excellent at communicating with her, talking her down, and helping her refocus her energy in order to actually get results.

They could have been SO evil yet SO healthy together!

In the wise words of my girlfriend (and Grandma Molag from Firebringer) :

[western-magical-girl-confessions]

“One of the many things that I don't like about MLB's Derision ep. is that not only they're blaming all of Marinette's bad actions on Chloe (instead of just making Mari own up to her bad actions and just get positive character development along the way), but as soon as she realizes that her trauma "ALL" comes from Chloe herself, she suddenly has this huge happy, cheery, go-lucky relief moment from realizing that this person (AND two other people, but the writers don't care and excuses their actions tho) has caused her really bad trauma. Like, neither the writers nor Thomas has NO IDEA how trauma works. It's just really weird to me because if I was her, I don't know if I really would be all happy-go-lucky in getting a realization of who was the person who caused my horrendous trauma, ESPECIALLY if they're still in my life. That scene was just SO WEIRD to me. 

They flaunt trauma in this cartoon like it's nothing, let alone the fact that they were trying to make us believe that Marinette's bad behavior was supposed to be funny/the joke in prior seasons. This episode also ruined Kim and Kim x Ondine for me. Kim was a part of Marinette’s trauma, but just because he says a simple sorry, then all’s good. Not to mention that almost in entirety of the episode, Kim was very sure of himself that the way he thought wasn’t wrong, and that people just “can’t take a joke”. However, he easily changes his mind about it and apologizes??? And why hasn’t Marinette shown uneasiness around Kim too outside of the episode??? 

I don’t know why Marinette, Adrien and ESPEICALLY Ondine would forgive him after that? Ondine (and even MAX since he’s Kim’s best friend AND I use to ship them in canon a lot) deserve better tbh.”

[nervousbelieverstarfish]

Imagine Monarch watching Chat Noir beating Kim's ass and threaten to murder him and just going with "Oh yes he kissed the baker girl once so he just took this personally"

[motherofplatypus]

Is there anyone in the fandom who have been bullied and felt offended after watching Derision?

This episode showed us what Chloe did to Mari, but since S1, they wrote Mari and Chloe as rivals. Heck, Mari helped Chloe reconcile with her mother (Queen Wasp), gives her miraculous, and even throw a party for her because she's Queen Bee, a "hero" (Malediktator). To make things worse, they wrote Mari as someone who's responsible for Chloe to change (Zombizou).

And to make things even further worse (is that even a sentence?), the teachers and parents KNOW Mari is being bullied, so why are they still siding with Chloe? Okay, asking for the teacher to act is crossing the line, but her parents? Not even an attempt to talk to the school about it? Or change school? They just let their daughter live 3 years of her school life getting bullied?

Im numb with how horrible the writing of this show since S3, but this one just baffling.

[set-wingedwarrior]

I don't really talk about Miraculous Ladybug.

I'm not involved with fandom, I don't care about drama; I just enjoy the show without questioning it too much, enjoying the blorbos and sharing a fanart from time to time.

But I watched "Derision" today and, wow.

I can already assume, but maybe I'm wrong, that many probably wrote it off as some sort of weak explanation for Marinette's often insane behavior. But to me? It actually hit home.

Part of my "tragic backstory that needs lots of friendship points to unlock" is actually a very similar situation. I, too, found myself victim of some sort of "romance-related" prank that completely disregarded my feelings, and that forever changed and conditioned my romantic life, the way I experience romantic feelings and romance in general.

It just hit home, real hard. Part of me also feels understood.

And yeah, I know it's not that deep, that they likely aimed more at sympathy than being relatable. But to me it's still important. Thanks to this episode, the little 12/13 years old inside of me felt seen, and a bit better.

I'm grateful for that.

[kiarabanetmi]

Chloe’s Arc vs Felix’s Arc

Chloe and Felix share many similarities as characters and yet their stories have completely different outcomes and I want to try and analyze why. I think both of them share similar stories with different outcomes to show how different actions taken by similar people can have drastically different results

On a surface level it may seem like Felix and Chloe aren’t similar, and yes they do have many differences between them that make them different people entirely, but they both have many of the same types of background and suffered similar kinds of abuse and developed negative mindsets about the world because of it

They are both rich children both to influential families that shaped their lives. Each of them had an abusive parent but in different ways: Chloe’s mother abandoned her and her father indulged her bad behavior to avoid being abused himself. Felix’s father abused Felix mentally and emotionally and even Physically since he would use Felix’s miraculous to control what he what physically couldn’t and couldn’t do. We don’t know about how his mother raised him, but I saw an interesting post on Twitter analyzing a moment from the play Felix and Kagami did (it’s linked somewhere on Twitter but I’m having trouble finding it so I can’t give credit where it’s due). The bunny that Felix holds at one point is supposed to represent Felix’s mother (there’s a screenshot somewhere of Amelie wearing a rabbit mask) and the moment where the arm is torn represents that his father abused her as well. This may have caused her to be indulgent of her son to try and make him happy, especially after her husband died, since they were both finally free of his abuse and cruelty

They both have incredible power and financial means as well as a warped view of the world due to their upbringing. Chloe sees everyone as beneath her cause that’s how she feels better about herself and how her mother acted and encouraged Chloe to act when she was actually around. Felix suffered abuse from someone who had power over him, developing a cold and closed off personality, putting others down as well, unwilling to allow himself to open himself up to be used and abused again, causing him to look down on others cause he was trying to protect himself (and his mother).

They also both tried to Sabotage Adrien’s relationship’s at some point too. Chloe tried so she could have Adrien, her “prince,” all to herself and could torture Marinette; Felix did this for unknown reasons but I hypothesize it was a combination of trying to get HawkMoth’s attention by making Adrien’s friends angry enough to be akumatized and out of jealousy that Adrien seemed to have loving friends. Or maybe in his head he also thought he was protecting Adrien from people who were just out to use him rather than actually cared about him, since he never really had any friends of his own and couldn’t believe they were genuine (but that’s my own headcannon, there’s no proof of it).

Adrien also both gave them second chances. In Chloe’s case, it started in Season 2 in Despair Bear. Then later in Derision after he learned the Hell she put Marinette through the years before in school (we’ll come back to that one in a bit). In Felix’s debut episode, Adrien did confront him on what he did, and forgave Felix when he apologized, but only after he made it clear that what Felix did was NOT OK and would not forgive him if he did it again.

Here’s where their story lines start to divulge: what they do after Adrien calls each of them out. They both take different routes. Chloe still bullied Marinette’s and the others and tries to keep Adrien to herself (which really only actively starts up again after the Season 3 finale). In the season 4 episode Gabriel Agreste, she plans to reveal to Gabriel the classes attempts to help Adrien escape his home (and by extension reveal Marinette’s feelings) so he’ll take Adrien of school and make sure only she can visit him. In that very same episode Felix comes back.

Now, on the surface, it seems like Felix hasn’t changed. He’s cold and closed off, gives Gabriel a fake ring back, makes fun of Chloe and avoids interacting with everyone else, including Kagami. But here’s the thing no one notices: he’s not actively trying to sabotage Adrien’s relationships this episode. When he and Kagami are alone in the room, he doesn’t say anything to try and manipulate her, not try to make Adrien look bad. Granted, he probably had more important things on his mind, investigating Gabriel, but it’s still a small improvement. Then there’s the BIG moment in the episode where Gabriel tries to trick Felix and akumatize him: Felix flat out REJECTS it.

This is significant for two reasons: at this point in the timeline, this is only the third time we’ve seen a character actually reject an akumatization based on will alone. The first, funnily enough, was Chloe back in season 3, Miraculer. She refused to be Akumatized and manipulated to try and be better per Ladybug’s advice. The second person to do it was Alya in Gang of Secrets earlier in season 4. Felix (at this point) is only the third character to do this. That’s huge

The second reason is he outright refused to be akumatized at all, rejecting any power offer. In his debut episode, it seemed like he wanted to work with HawkMoth, but here he’s not. Outright refused powers from someone who can literally give them. (Side note, Gabriel is also threatening Felix’s life here by threatening to make him disappear, since he had the peacock miraculous repaired now, and I have a theory as to why it broke in the first place). In the previous episode Queen Banana, Chloe even had a conversation with HawkMoth and readily accepted; showing she was no longer just being manipulated when the butterfly came into contact with her. She could have rejected it (and later did in Penalteam), but still accepted the power. Felix didn’t at all. So we start to think, maybe Felix isn’t that bad? Maybe he’s better than Chloe right?

Then he went and betrayed Ladybug and gave Gabriel all the miraculous in exchange for the Peacock. He didn’t care about the people he hurt or betrayed or doomed in pursuit of his own goals, getting his hand on the Peacock miraculous. Chloe, in similar fashion, wanted the Bee Miraculous back, and allied with HawkMoth when he offered it to her in the season 3 finale. And even in his small scene in season 5 episode 2, when he shows up and his mom is shown to have lies to Ladybug and Cat Noir to protect (or enable) her son, our suspicions about his motives and allegiances are confirmed true.

So far, his story is like Chloe’s: a rich, spoiled kid with an abusive parent (father) and the other parent as an enabler, looking down on everyone not at his level, acting cruel for the sake of it,, working with Hawkmoth to get their hands on a miraculous, and not regretting any of his bad choices and acting in his own self interest without caring about how it impacts others around him.

Let’s head back to Chloe for a second since we’ve focused on Felix and there’s a gap between his appearances in season 5. In the episode Derision, Adrien finally learns the true extent of the torture she put a Marinette through. He may not have heard about the smaller stuff from Kim, like leaving bugs in her locker and paint on her seats, but he learned of the horrendous “prank” she and Kim pulled on Marinette and immediately was furious. I mean, he tried to Cataclysm Kim’s face a few minutes later (I don’t blame him).

Adrien finally learned the true extent of Chloe’s cruelty and evil. So he decides to give her one last chance. He tells her to apologize cause he believes she can change. And she’s shown she’s capable of it. But this time, instead of trying to plead his forgiveness, she just laughs in his face now. She refuses to try being good anymore and outright tells Adrien, her “Prince”, the boy she always called her friend and seemed to care for one some real level, wrong and tries to convince him that she is better. She’s completely given up on any semblance of trying to good, or even just acting like she’s doing it to lease Adrien anymore. She’s done. She’s revealed her true colors to him. And Adrien is done with her. She’s not even sad about it anymore, just angry and annoyed that he betrayed her.

We see here that even though it seemed like she did care about Adrien enough to try and change or be better, she no longer does. Maybe she never did. She still sees him as some sort of prop or tool or prize that she deserves. Now let’s head back to Felix and the episode Emotion and how it displays both Felix’s growth and Chloe’s regression

***note, I have a full post on Felix and his actions in the episode Emption as well if you want to read it

Emotion happens and we see the true differences between the characters, and we learn more about Felix here too. Until now it seems like Felix has his own sinister reasons for allying with HawkMoth and is nothing but a male version of Chloe. But we see the differences here now. He tries to talk to Kagami (posing as Adrien) and doesn’t try to ruin their relationship, in fact apologizing when Kagami tells him that since they’re no longer dating the hand kiss was too far (learning about consent is good young man, but you still have to apologize to Ldybug!). He even tries to bond with her. Meanwhile Chloe had unwittingly “befriended” Marinette at the party and insists on showing her around, bragging about servants and robots and money and the like. Then the King and Queen are supposed to dance.

When Marinette reveals herself to them, you can see the differences in their characters in the ways they react. Marinette gives “Adrien” a heartfelt speech, saying she loves him, how she understands why he didn’t tell her about the dance and isn’t mad or betrayed, how she understands his father is forcing hot to do this and doesn’t blame him, and that she trusts him and loves him no matter what. Chloe is obsessed with the fact the baker girl broke into the dance, wanting her kicked out immediately. Felix by contrast is shocked, and then smiles and dances with her. He’s still acting as Adrien so it could be a cover, but I think he was genuinely loved by her words. Until now he’s never interacted with someone who honest, even if it would get them in trouble or hurt them. When Marinette starts getting self conscious and saying they think she’s a monster, he gets angry and says that they are the monsters.

Then Chloe gets so mad that she outright attacks Marinette and Felix then reveals himself. He starts snapping everyone away, but doesn’t do so with Marinette. He takes her away and hides her rather than just snapping her away for later. He doesn’t want to hurt someone who genuinely cares for his cousin. Then after he snaps the rest of the world away except for himself and Kagami (and be believed Marinette) he brings Adrien back and is overjoyed! He is happy cause he thinks he freed them and wants to have them all live together and be free and happy, (like he never was with his father)

Now we see there’s more to him that a cruel Chloe copy: he wants to help those he cares but is INCREDIBLY misguided, he thinks the only way he can think to help is to take the extreme and completely cut off anyone else who they don’t know or could possibly hurt them in the future, that there’s no one else good in the world except for Adrien and his mother (then later Kagami and Marinette). And we also see him regret his actions when he hurt the people he cared about. When he couldn’t bring back Marinette, he panicked and brought back everyone cause he didn’t want to hurt Adrien.

This is another Major difference between Chloe and Felix. Felix’s actions are also undoubtedly selfish and cruel (snapping away the entire world? Damn), but beneath that there’s a twisted and warped sense of protection and care behind it. He did it to save his loved ones. He was incredibly wrong in his approach and actions, but he seemed to genuinely want to help. And when Adrien called him out on it and how he was out of control and actually hurting people and him with his powers, Felix immediately stopped. He could have ignored it and snapped him and Kagami away, living alone in his free world, but he didn’t. By contrast, in the episode Revolution, Chloe gets similar powers to send people away, and when Adrien calls her on it she just sends him away too, without a second thought. Lila didn’t even need to say anything to convince Chloe to do it, that’s how little she cares about Adrien.

And their differences don’t stop at Emotion and how they use similar powers. They continue for the rest of their individual appearances in Season 5.

After the Diamond Dance and Felix snaps away Red Moon, he could have stopped there. After this failure and hearing his mother agree with his sentiments about how cruel everyone else in the world is (his mother being someone he loves and looks up, who is now validating his original beliefs), he could have just stopped right there. Instead, after that, he took an interest in Kagami, and also still tried to look out for/after Adrien. Remember, in the Season 3 finale, ladybug also tried to reach out to Chloe again after she made that mistake, and Chloe outright refused to apologize and turned against Ladybug fully. Felix ended up listening to Ladybug in the end, when she told him winning isn’t always what you want, or something like that. He did end up taking her advice.

Then when he saw Kagami being abused emotionally and verbally by her mother (one step forward, one step back; STALKING IS NOT OK YOUNG MAN), he noted how horrible it was and immediately acted to stop it. He kidnapped her and took her away (bad reaction, make that two steps back), but here he’s genuinely trying to do good. He’s actively trying to change. Kagami even calls him out on his stalking and kidnapping, and he apologizes and explains he didn’t know what else to do cause he knows what it’s like to be abused. Chloe would’ve just laughed at Kagami’s plight: Adrien’s “perfect” friend and ex girlfriend isn’t so perfect and her mother thinks she’s ridiculous too? She would find that utterly amazing and laughable.

Throughout the rest of the episode, Felix’s only plan is to protect Kagami, and even Ladybug and Chat Noir realize this when Kagami tells them so. He doesn’t try to fight them anymore and leaves.

Then through Lila’s manipulations and schemes, Chloe becomes mayor of Paris, and again ally’s with Monarch to gain powers for herself. She’s back to her old tricks, and this time is completely unrestrained by her former attachments to Adrien. One last time, she could have turned him down, but in the end she didn’t. This final choice is the metaphorical nail in Chloe’s coffin.

**I have another link where I try to analyze Chloe’s fall from grace and the reason her story ended the way it did

That’s a fundamental difference between these two characters which such similar backgrounds: it’s how they react to what they did and react to their mistakes and other people calling them out on their actions

Chloe never truly cared that she hurt Adrien despite him being “precious” to her, she never truly accepted responsibility except for that one time with Maledictator, and in the end didn’t see how her mother treated her as wrong. And when being good wasn’t as easy or rewarding as she wanted it to be, she stopped trying.

She found that being cruel and mean was easier for her and more immediately rewarding, so she took the easy way. It’s not that difficult to expect, especially the way she was raised: with a snobby, absentee mother, a weak willed father, and all the power of the city at her beck and call. It takes a lot of strength, will, and determination to try and break that cycle, especially as a kid. We see she’s capable but it’s hard for her to stay the course of good. All we can hope for is one day she’ll see the error of her ways AND get the help she desperately needs to get her out of abusive home and able to learn healthier and kinder ways to live

By contrast, Felix did realize the error of his ways and actively began to try changing, even though it was really hard. No one trusted him, especially not ladybug or Kagami or Adrien, but he still wanted to try. And he did. When confronted by Ladybug and Car Noir again, he didn’t try to fight them, only intending to protect Kagami. When Kagami told him off and what he was doing wrong he apologized and explained himself and what he was trying to do. He also worked to give her freedom again. Being good is not easy for him either, especially with how often he was hurt and abused when he was young, but he’s trying to be better here, and sees that even though it’s hard work, he’s willing to do it. Hopefully he stays on this path.

[ijustliketoreadstuff]

Adrien’s friendship with Chloe

As we know, Adrien has previously attempted to confront Chloe about her behavior and misdeeds, but unlike the previous times, his confrontation in “Derision” was different, why?, because everything was different .

At the start of the series, Adrien could not easily accept the idea of Chloe being as bad as everyone said she was, after all, they didn't know her like he did, they didn’t have the bond they shared, and so no matter what he saw Chloe say or do, he could never forget the years they spent together as children. They had a history together, a more positive view of one another which could not be easily set aside, and so to Adrien, this lighter side of Chloe was simply a part of her others did not yet have the chance to see

Adrien had a lifelong friendship with Chloe, unfortunately, it was precisely their friendship which left him no other choice but to use to his advantage in a desperate attempt to make Chloe understand the boundaries he was now willing to set between them. Not only to try and put a halt to her actions, but also reveal to her that there was only so much he could bare to watch her do, before he decided for himself that a friendship with her may not be worth upholding. Something which pained him to say to her in situations such as “Despair bear” and “Queen Banana”, but was a possibility he had no other choice but to consider. After all, the people Chloe acted against, were not just strangers, they were his friends, his schoolmates ,they were good people, all of whom had done nothing to deserve the unfair treatment she continued to give them. But regardless of the situation, Adrien was still willing to be compassionate towards Chloe, vouching for her when needed if anyone doubted her in the most important of situations.

(Adrien tries to vouch for Chloe in “Despair Bear”, attempting to convince everyone that Chloe can also have good intentions and her party is nothing to be suspicious about)

(Cat Noir tries to vouch for Chloe in “Antibug” as he realizes Chloe really was trying to help)

No matter how much others would detest Chloe, Adrien could never accept people telling him Chloe was nothing but useless and cruel, because to him, no one was useless, not even Chloe given the years they spent together as children when he was isolated from the rest of the world. Adrien wanted to believe Chloe could change if she had a little help and support in finding the right path to follow, he wanted to believe that no matter what others thought, she was still the same girl he grew up with and cared for, but much to Adrien's dismay, Chloe had different plans and different choices in mind.

(in “Malediktator”, Adrien explains to Marinette why he does not approve of everyone celebrating Chloe’s departure, believing she is not useless given she was the only good friend he had in his life growing up)

Over the course of the series, Adrien saw Chloe have her moments where she would say and do the right thing, and much like Marinette, Adrien had faith Chloe would strive to improve herself now that she had obtained everything they had hoped would help her realize following a path of change would produce better results in her life. But sadly, those moments they saw Chloe experience would all be taken a step back time and again as they watched her continue to find joy in her old ways, not only forgetting everything she had experienced, but also ignoring the people who were willing to be kind to her and offer her another chance. This loop of faith and disappointment repeated itself, and yet despite this, Adrien still could not bare to officially end things between them, even when she pushed him away in "Queen Banana". However, all this came to an end in “Derision”, when Adrien discovered the true extent of Chloe’s actions and the views she had of the world around her.

(Near the end of “Despair Bear”, “Zombizou”, etc. Adrien watches on as Chloe reverts back to her old ways)

Adrien promised Chloe back in “Despair bear” they would be friends forever as she proved to everyone she could indeed be kind to others, but being kind was something Adrien had inevitably accepted was only a brief moment with her and nothing more. Experiences he felt would help guide her to a better path, were quickly left in the past the moment she realized things could once again return to her favor. And as much as he had hoped her being given a second chance to be Queen Bee would help tip the odds in Chloe realizing she needed to abandon her old ways, to his disappointment, the path Chloe chose for herself did not revolve around selflessness and the lessons she learned with them as heroes, but rather the privileges she believed she was entitled to as a result of her new found title (more here)

Near the end of “Derision”, as Adrien saw Kim accept the error of his ways and apologized to Marinette for the things he had done(more here), he thought of Chloe and what she could do for herself by being offered yet another chance. However, unlike his previous attempts to confront Chloe, this was different, because now, it was no longer just an attempt to confront her, it was a moment of truth. Adrien needed to know once and for all if Chloe was truly the person he always thought she was, and yet despite his attempts to offer Chloe the chance to apologize to Marinette and prove to everyone she always had the honest intention to change, in the end, she refused. Revealing to Adrien the one thing he never wanted to accept but could no longer ignore, Chloe did not want to change who she was. Adrien understood Chloe was perfectly capable of changing just as much as anyone, but despite her experiences, despite the consequences, despite the opportunities and despite the people who were willing to reach out to her, Chloe refused to live a life where she couldn't prioritize herself and be prioritized by others.

(In “Queen Banana”, Adrien attempts to help Chloe understand she has done wrong and suggests she make amends for it by first apologizing to the group. However, the more Chloe had attempted to prioritize herself in situations, regardless of how unfair and unjust it was, the more she pushed Adrien away.)

Adrien grew up with Chloe, but this bond they shared was no longer the same child like friendship they grew up with, they were older now, their views of each other changed, and with the two of them now expecting widely different things from one another, it was in “Derision” that the two of them discovered just how different the paths they chose for themselves truly were.

The person Adrien viewed Chloe as, was the person he wished she would inevitably become if he continued to stick by her side, but his hopes of who Chloe could become were his alone, a reflection of what he believed his kindness and efforts could make way to if he held on just a little longer, supported her just a little further, but this change he hoped for Chloe, was not for him to decide, it was Chloe’s, but she didn't want it if it meant living without the luxuries and privileges she had grown accustomed to, privileges which  included tormenting others she believed were simply beneath her.

As Adrien heard Chloe proclaim those of their status had every right to torment others like Marinette for their own amusement and that a romantic love life was something he owed to her alone, he understood that no matter what he said to her, she found no fault in her way of living despite being aware it was morally frowned upon by him and others. Despite knowing she would risk loosing her friendship with him over continuing to prioritize her selfish ways, over time, it didn't matter, because to her, Adrian was the one in the wrong for not abiding by the rules she believed were set for people like them, and for not accepting the romantic future she believed was predestined for them to live out together.

As Chloe refused to listen and understand Adrien’s reasoning about the reality of her actions, Adrien began to reflect on everything he knew about her, everything he had seen along side her, and everything he had experienced in the world away from her, and in the end, he understood it only mattered to him, but not to her.

(Adrien accepts he was wrong about Chloe)

 It didn’t matter if he and Chloe had known each other since childhood, it didn’t matter what he knew about her that made him feel sympathetic and empathetic towards her, and it didn’t matter what bond they use to share, let alone what his hopes were for her, because all in all, he still had his boundaries and so did everyone else, but it was Chloe who was willing to break the boundaries of what was morally and ethically right time and time again, with little to no remorse, and for this, Adrien had decided to end things between them, not just for Marinette’s sake, but for himself as he refused to continue maintaining an unhealthy friendship with someone who cared only for themselves and found joy in hurting others, and if this meant he would now be considered a traitor through Chloe’s eyes, then so be it.

[eddo-tensei]

SPOILERS FOR DERISION (Miraculous)

Now to post a joke I've been waiting to post on here until the episode airs.

Chat Noir when he accidentally uses Cataclysm on the man who had been tormenting him, his friends, and everyone in his home for at least a year:

Chat Noir when he discovers that Kim, who had mostly been friendly to everyone including him, was involved in an incident that's causing him to have difficulties dating Marinette: