#okay to rb but don’t derail/start shit I will just block you

[oceanmonsters]

I guess this is technically a callout post but none of this is new stuff, it’s stuff that’s already featured on my blog that I’m just collating together and explaining. I am not doing this to try and stir up drama or expose this person or bring them down or whatever. I’m just tired of myself and other poc getting told we’re overreacting or deluded or reaching when we call someone out on their shit and so I wanted to make an actual record of the reasons why I am against this person that I & others can can direct people to rather than having to repeatedly explain ourselves. If you read this and still decide that we’re wrong and overreacting then feel free to unfollow/block me.

@/ayeforscotland brands himself as a progressive left leaning “woke” person but fundamentally the thing he really cares about most is Scottish independence, and he weaponises progressive causes to support his own agenda. He has a long history of downplaying racism in Scotland and Scotland’s own imperialist history. He has somewhat changed after being called out for doing these things on several occasions but instead of recognising that he was wrong in the past and only changed his tune when people called him out, he lies and pretends that he never tried to whitewash Scotland at all even when there is obvious evidence to the contrary. (I don’t have more specific sources on his downplaying racism in Scotland/whitewashing it’s colonial history but poc on here have been talking about it for a while so if anyone has any links please lmk!)

While he reblogs antiracist posts and publicly denounces racism, he also seems to only care about racism when it furthers his own arguments. While I don’t have receipts for every single post, I’ve seen multiple occurrences of him trying to link racism to being pro-England/anti Scottish independence. As well as the previous post linked in which he he posted a video of white supremacists but made it all about how terrible the English are (while ignoring similar occurrences in Scotland) here is another example of the type of post I mean (warning for antiblackness) - making posts in the BLM tag literally trivialising racism and treating it as a joke to dunk on the unionists. It is really disgusting for a white person to be weaponising the racism of people who don’t agree with them to garner support for their own cause. While I think AFS may genuinely believe himself to be antiracist, he is clearly very performative and that he ultimately only truly cares about his main agenda of Scottish independence and is happy to use the experiences & suffering of English and Scottish POC as a tool to push his own agenda.

He is also incredibly disrespectful towards POC who call him out for the above. In this same thread linked earlier, he repeatedly tone polices after being called out (for purposefully inciting people to be racist on his posts/in his inbox so he can “expose them”, which is obviously disgusting in itself).

As well as the tone policing, in that thread he also gives a perfect example of being performative and not actually caring about racism: he basically expects that instead of calling him out when he does something wrong, we as poc should be expected to have a constructive chat with him and walk him through what he should and shouldn’t say. He says that he’s “happy to have a chat with [her] and learn about how [he] can improve in the future”. How gracious of him to be “happy to” have her to spend her time and energy walk-in him through how not to be racist in a perfectly friendly deferential way 🙄. He’s not willing to do any of the labour to actually learn or read about racism himself (if he was, he would know that inciting racists to spew hate speech and sharing it on his blog is not good allyship, and neither is expecting poc to personally educate you), he just expects poc to calmly educate him every time he messes up so he can learn not to do that same thing again, while never actually engaging with his own role in racism. My post here goes further into this topic. Furthermore, he has since blocked both me and @pakisstani for calling him out for his racism in all of the linked threads. Blocking the POC who repeatedly call you out for racism is really not a good look for a self-proclaimed ally.

AFS would no doubt profusely deny that he is a racist person. However, his actions and words in the threads linked WERE racist and until he takes responsibility for them and makes any effort to educate himself he has absolutely no business building up a platform marketing himself as progressive ally. If you’re a white person who still supports him after seeing all this then I don’t trust you any more than I trust him.

(+ bonus: this post isn’t racist but it is an ignorant and weird perspective, implying that people labelling themselves as from the UK/British because of the negative connotations are somehow shirking the blame of colonialism and responsible for enabling white supremacists to claim the label of English (completely ignoring the fact that there are plenty of poc living in England who do not want to claim the label for obvious reasons...). Maybe not particularly relevant to this post but I feel like it helps paint the picture as a whole.)

ETA: some things from others rbing this post, obviously I don’t have sources for these things but I have also seen similar occurrences and they fit into the attitude I’ve seen from AFS in the past (before he got called out and then pretended he never did those things).

Adding some screenshots for posterity in case links go down (all screenshots are from posts linked here)

[gringolet]

that italian?

okay okay okay i think it happened long enough ago that i can dish about the drama. she changed her url and im not including it anyway so its fine.

prepare for a fuckin. essay in responss to a TWO WORD ask but anyay

so once upon time there was an italian who hated children and loved reylo. she also hung out in the arthuriana tag and got a bunch of asks about it. so one day some poor anon comes in and asks if she has any trans headcanons for arthurian characters, and she, instead of being a normal person and saying like, no, she goes off about how trans characters in fanfic is forced representation and she cant talk about trans people bc surgery is triggering for her.

found this in the archives lol. so i rbd politely explaining that while it was fine to not have trans hcs, her justifications for it were a little offensive.

hey i dont want to start discourse or anything but i see ur asks in the tag a lot and i wanted to politely address this. firstly obviously no one is under any obligation to hc things, and headcanons and fandom is not activism. if you’d just said “no, not really” it would b fine. i mean, cringe of u, but fine. but u make a couple of points here i want to look at a bit critically. then there is “I don’t like when headcanons are pushed up as ~representation, especially when… Ehm, it’s just fandom stuff?” i dont want to misinterpret you or put words in your mouth, but the implication that theres no need for trans rep in fandom and dismissal of that is a very cis take. My initial read of your intention there was a complaint of ‘why should something like fandom spaces, which are for fun and not serious, be filled with non fun serious (bad) trans stuff that i have to see when im trying to enjoy myself.’ now that could be incorrect, you were a bit vague here. if that is what you meant, i think you maybe should examine why you feel that way. if it isnt, im unclear on what exactly youre trying to say here. the idea that trans hcs are performative wokeness and “representation” in fandom is completely ignoring the actual trans people making and wanting them. there is so vanishingly little representation of trans people in actual media and even less thats good, and i think implying trans hcs are being pushed on people and fandom for, ~representation (a world of meaning in the ~ i shant speculate on) is very dismissive and ignorant of that fact. honestly the main thing im troubled by is the idea that trans bodies are inherently disgusting and triggering, which is an incredibly harmful and hurtful idea, and since you yourself acknowledge that trans people and hcs dont predicate surgery i question why you bring it up, except as a justification for disconfort rooted in unexamined prejudice. im not accusing you of being a terf or anything, i dont believe you meant harm by this or have bad intentions, and im definitely not saying anyone has to hc anything. it was the uncomfronted insidiousness of your justification that concerned me. this is not a personal attack at all, you just have a lot of influence in this fandom space and i wanted to make you aware of some of the surely accidentally harmful things ur saying.

so she flips out and rbs that yelling at me and cursing me out in italian (she moved blogs so i dont have her whole response just bits)

basically she completely derailed the original topic and accused me of calling her a horrible person for her triggers? which i never did and would never do, and then tried to make it a wierd anti v proshipper thing

third: I never said there’s no need of trans hcs in fandoms, BUT I’ve noticed that there’s a tendency of condemning people on the basis of what they ship / the dynamics they write. ( like the infinite discourse about how ‘I ship only mlm enemies to lovers because f/m enemies to lovers are Inherently Bad and Abusive - something I personally heard on Twitter sigh ), so I feel the need to say it. blame the current fandom climate.

and were like wow, this lady is unhinged, so we look around her blog and find a. a lot of stuff like saying its racist to not like incest?? and that italians arent white?? also shes a swerf?? and kind of deniel italian colonialsm? and reblogs from a bunch of out and out terfs} there was more but this isnt a callout post lol.

valentine lanzelet made a post about this crazy italian we found and she flipped out on him (this is one of several cursey italian tag rants)

roughly means: GO SHIT YOURSELF (italian alternative to go fuck you), RACIST TERF IS YOUR GRANDMOTHER IN A WHEELBARROW (italian saying which does not translate well) AND WHAT HAS ITALIAN COLONIALISM TO DO WITH THIS YOU UGLY SHIT, and anyways lancelot sucks

(translated by claudio beheaded)

anyway so then. and this is when it gets unhinged. she goes on this server me and a lot of my mutuals n friends r in, camelot, and starts complaining about me.

(in red is the server admin, who was lovely) i asked her to move this convo to dms if she must bc it was rude to bring drama into the server, and she refused, and started insisting that she was being bullied and just wanted to be left alone, so i was like okay lets all block each other and move on, and she refused, continuing to defend everything she was being criticized for

they also said claudio was making them look bad by translating their rants which like... queen if that made them look bad they were already a bad look.

so she keeps pinging people and replying to shit despite everyone else at this point begging her to just drop it and call it a stalemate

imagine this but around n around for like an hour. also she repeatedly got me and valentine confused it was super funny. also she claimed it was an invasion of her privacy for valentine to go on her public blog and look at the things she openly said and rbd there

so the server got put in slow mode and she KEPT GOING even though everyone was just begging her to stop and not even responding

as u can see, around this point we just started spamming her with emoji reactions. she announced she was leaving then went back to arguing a full three times before finally dipping from the server

then she continued complaining about us and calling us puriteens in her tags (trying to make it a proshipper v anti thing i guess lol?)

for literally months before finally remaking. also in that time she got in an argument about how the crusades were fine actually. italianphobia works hard but she works harder i guess

anyway i prolly left out a lot but thats the italian saga

[thedogsled]

Hi anonymous gencest person in my inbox! First of all, I wanted to reply to you thoroughly, I just happened to not be online at the time that you sent your first message, and as a result it’s taken a little time to write this reply. You seem to be really hurt by this, but the tone of your message is understanding and kind, and you deserve to be spoken to with the same respect that you did in your messages to me. I’ve put your message under the cut to protect you a little bit (I hope that you find it).

For the folks on my dash, please don’t think this is me jumping back into it. Mostly that’s because, as you mentioned in your message, I feel like everything has gotten very out of hand. The tone of the original conversation changed underneath me, because while my issues were only with tagging, I feel like some people perceived it to be something else. I’d like to clear that up. Ad hominem attacks are always unnecessary, and they derail reasonable conversation. I also think that a lot of this jumped off the back of already raised tensions and preconceptions, and the divisions in fandom are wholly responsible for that. So that’s mostly why I haven’t mentioned it on my blog since the scuffle happened, and why I’m happier putting the rest of this under a cut. I don’t agree with what this turned into (kink shaming, and making genfic people into some sort of commodity to be shot across the battlefield like human cannons), and it’s left a bad taste in my mouth how the whole thing was handled, much as it seems to have done with anonymous.

This post is about that.

Anonymous said:The gencest wank is reaching new levels. Now people on twitter are claiming that participants "support child abuse" (which child?) and are "grooming" other people. There is disagreeing with the ambiguity the term gencest imply and there is straight up calling content creators who just want to write on their favorite characters predators. Now I feel even worse about writing Winchester Gen fic and I'm not even a participant! Are yall even going to care about that?

Anonymous said:(same g*ncest wank anon) Look, nevermind. I dont really expect anything. I was hurt by both sides when I'm at a low point and just wanted to write some S&D gen fic to cheer me up. I came to vent but it wasn't called for. I'm sorry. Have a nice day. 

I’m going to start right back at the beginning. This wank started on Twitter, and it’s still continuing over there. I think a lot of the reason why things are never let go of on Twitter is because the format has a toppling effect. With things only loosely dated, and Twitter sending you notifications for things you might have been interested in, it tends to keep fires burning a lot longer. The viciousness of the conversations is one of the reasons why I’m not a very big presence of Twitter myself, not to mention block and let block isn’t considered to be a social default. People just engage with material no matter the consequences, forgetting that other people on the internet are living breathing emoting human beings.

Part of it, too, is Supernatural fandom’s divisions in general. If you look just at the wank that crossed my dash just in the last week - one week! - there’s the gencest wank, wank from old meta writers about new meta writers, wank at people who wish Cas had been in this episode, wank about Danneel--it never ends. And instead of those wanks being considered as separate incidents, they instead build one on top of another, so people come into conversations with a lot of baggage, which they aim at each other in quickfire succession.

It’s not okay. That’s part of the reason why I try and avoid engaging in ‘antis do this, antis do that’ drama, fandom dividing into sides etc. because it’s draining, it’s tiring, and it stops you from doing things you want to be doing. Trust me, I know all about the pain of just wanting to write/draw/reblog so and so, and feeling like you can’t because the fandom is a trash heap. Other multishippers feel the same way, like they can’t reblog content from certain bloggers because it’s only going to cause drama. I haven’t written or drawn anything but Destiel (apart from that one Sabriel fic for the RB last year) since I started this blog, despite being a multishipper at heart myself, because I don’t feel like that content is welcome or will be engaged with. 

This fandom cultivates that kind of unwelcomeness, in my opinion, to almost everyone in it. It also prevents people from blogging on their own blog, because again people feel they need to seek out and engage with content (even untagged content) that they disagree with, or they’re not interested with, instead of just blocking it. I like talking about ships, and I like discussing how problematic some of them are. I like discussing dark fic. I like discussing tagging practices, and how to keep people safe from being triggered in a fandom which is full of people carrying their traumas with them. While I like engaging with the dark potential of characters, I do my best not to do so at the expense or harm of others. All of those things lead to conflict, and conflict I avoid so much I don’t end up using my blog as I want to. For example, just last year I got involved in a Megstiel conversation which ended in people saying rude things about me and wearing it as a badge of honor that I blocked them. I like Megstiel. I have RPed it and I like the potential the two characters have with each other. It’s not my OTP, and I’m not a relentless wave of positivity about it, but that’s okay. That’s my opinion, and not an opinion I should have to defend, and it’s okay to block people rather than argue needlessly and spread ill feeling around even more.

Staying out of other people’s opinions didn’t happen, this time. Blocking didn’t happen (the gencest mod did use her block later on, which I wholly support, when I was still following the drama, but the block wasn’t respected. When people log out to get around blocks, it isn’t respectful, and it’s part of what fans the drama higher). Not to mention all this drama came in at peak level because all this fandom is is Us Vs. Them until everyone is in a frenzied final battle situation during every incident. Sometimes the drama is being exacerbated and misrepresented, and there are absolutely trolls trying to stir the other thing to being much worse than it is “for fun”. Fandomwank and the anon comms on Dreamwidth (formerly LJ) and to a certain extent Reddit, love making Tumblr and Twitter fans go at each other, and even if we’re pretty shitty with each other already, that’s being driven and exacerbated constantly by forces unseen. 

(Note: People may accuse me of making this up, I suppose, but we’re a powderkeg and people love to start fires. The fake Cas stan on Twitter from this summer is a GREAT example of this, they had Misha’s name in their URL and dropped shit on the writers and cast for a long time just to make people froth at the mouth “How could they say that to Jared” etc. I think people really underestimate how much rubberneckers love drama, and if there isn’t any they will happily start it. That said, a fair amount of drama starts organically, and I’ll concede as much, but if you think cackling supervillains are crazytalk let me introduce you to MS Scribe...)

Rambling about drama aside, because I’m quite passionate about how stupid this fandom gets, I want to get back to your ask. I haven’t touched your actual comments yet, and that does a disservice to them because this drama has genuinely hurt you. Fandom should know that. Their words hurt real people. The bickering hurts real people. It drives people away. It drives people I know away, and it’s hurting this anon as well. It’s like anon says: are we going to care about that? Because we should. We should be making this fandom a better place. We should be mending bridges, not distancing people and telling them their pain doesn’t matter. It matters. At least it matters to me. I want you to know that, anon.

That it matters, that’s why I got so passionate about the tagging issue. We should care for everyone’s comfort in this fandom, and that matters to me too. We shouldn’t shout names at each other. And maybe if people hadn’t been at a default level of at each other’s throats, we could have had a conversation about this. I honestly believe the gencest mod came at this from a reasonable position originally, with no ill intent. I may not have made that clear in my previous posts, but I was determined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think their definition was even that wrong, given that they weren’t trying to redefine the brodependency, imo. My issues only came from a need for fandom itself to invoke the terms Wincest and incest where necessary to protect the people who seek protection from those terms, who are harmed by it, and blacklist it. So that their blacklists work, and continue to protect them. That’s okay, I think, to ask for that, not at the exclusion of the gencest tag, but alongside it where it’s necessary. Incest isn’t what the exchange is about, as I understand it, but obviously the inclusion of ‘wincest’ in the portmanteau does make the real intent cloudy, and excludes people who might otherwise have been interested in it. You mentioned in your ask that the term was ambiguous, and that was my only issue with it, not whatever it’s gotten turned into, especially if that negativity is explicitly anti-Wincest. If the mod wants to use a term that invokes incest for her non romantic gen fest, then that’s the mod’s prerogative. Re. tagging, I think it matters, but tagging is different to the challenge. I’ve tried to be clear on the difference I feel about it since the beginning.

I think that when you are inside the bubble of a ship, it becomes difficult to see the issues with that ship. Let’s take it outside of the fandom and look at Buffy, for example. The fair and honest truth is that Spuffy is an abusive ship. It was literally abusive, then framed as love, Joss Whedon’s gross projection of being able to creepily stalk women and do whatever he wants to them because ~love~ and the woman will ultimately forgive him for being a ruthless monster and they’ll get together. (coughMarvelcough). It’s my OTP for Buffy, but it is what it is. In SPN fandom, Wincest has a similar problem, because it’s been around right since the beginning of the show, and there’s some people I feel who have forgotten that it’s an incest ship, you know, and forget that other people don’t say “It’s just incest” in real life. Only on the internet. (The response to poor Jason Fisher’s defense of Superwiki from the GA made that disconnect really clear to me. The GA literally have no idea why this show would defend incest, because how we speak about incest within fandom is wholly different to how it’s discussed in the real world.)

That said, boy oh boy. I’m about to open a whole other can of worms here.

Wincest folks get constantly attacked. Like I said, it’s an incest ship, and between the GA and people who are triggered by it and purity culture, you’ve got these people who just wanna write their ship and they’re constantly on the toe of everyone’s boot getting a right kicking. I’m not going to argue about the moral rights and wrongs of writing incest, because it’s none of anyone’s business. Writing incest isn’t a gateway drug to performing it any more than if you write stories about murder that’s what you’re setting up to do next yourself. No matter why someone writes it, generally speaking that’s between them and their catharsis. People get uppity about other people’s ships and kinks when they should stay in their own lanes, really.

Tagging is the key to that. Acknowledging your ship has issues and then making sure you tag those issues responsibly. That’s important. It protects us. It protects me when I write darkfic. It protects people who write darkfic because they’re survivors, and helps people to deal with those things when it’s tagged properly, when it’s given the name of what it is, rather than sanitized. That’s my issue with gencest as a tag (not as a fest), because it felt like sanitized incest. You need to call that what it is. You need to identify it. Your older brother climbing into bed with you naked and without permission isn’t gen. To some people within the ship, the identification of it is half the battle. When we tag considerately, we are being kind to people we don’t know, as well as protecting ourselves. Tags make fandom better and safer.

With the way things have unrolled, it’s made it so engaging in either fest seems like picking sides. That’s not okay. That’s not just this battle; this is just another casualty of the whole ship war, something which has sucked the fun out of many things people enjoy doing, and driven many many people out of fandom. I’m sorry that this one hit when you were already feeling so low, not least because we all deserve to have nice things. Fandom is supposed to be the place to go to when life is shitty, to give you fun and relief. It’s not meant to feel like getting sent back to the trenches. Not for anyone.

We need to mend our bridges. We need to keep making our content, and stop seeing it as ride or die. We need to keep our nasty opinions to our own blogs and stop calling each other names when we don’t agree. We need to stop seeing blocking as unreasonable behavior and not proper curation. We need to stop raiding ship tags for wank, or dumping our crap on other ship’s tags in the first place. We need to give more people the benefit of the doubt, and engage on conversational levels about out fandom and our ships. We need to call out issues from within our own fandom, so when drama is getting splashed around we need to say “hey, they have a bit of a point, here, maybe we can talk reasonably about it”. We need to stop shadowboxing with an enemy we think is the boogeyman, when in reality we’re punching real people in the face. We need to tag proactively, and kindly, and keep our fandom corners clean so that when people come to visit we can say “hey, we take our tagging really seriously, you can’t call us out on it.” That’s the fandom I want to be a part of.

Most of all we need to be kind to each other. Be better. For this anon and for everyone else who’s ever been hurt by fandom. Enough shittiness is enough.

To anon. I’m sorry you’re hurting. It fucking sucks, and I’m so sorry things got driven to the point they have now. I’m sorry you got stuck in the middle of it. That said, I want you to write. I want to read your content. Shippy or not, I love the relationship that Sam and Dean have, and seeing all parts of it, fluffy and dark and codependent and cute and playful and snarky. I love G rated fic as much as I love dark NC-17 fic, and I don’t care for people who gen shame, like fic isn’t interesting if it doesn’t have sex in it. Screw that noise. I hope you write. I want you to write. As part of a challenge or not. I hope you will. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this tells me they want more gen S&D content.

You, and anyone else, are welcome to send me any content you want, any time you like. I don’t reblog NC-17 content that isn’t under a cut, or content that attacks other fans, but you can send me any ship, anytime - anyone who loves any ship in this crazy fandom, regardless of what circle of affiliation you usually sit with - and I’ll share your content. With the right tags, of course! We don’t have to be this dysfunctional with each other. We can cooperate and coexist.

To anon: write it. Write it just for you. Write it to make yourself feel better, and write it to stick it in the eye of everyone who’s made you feel bad about it. When you feel powerless, doing it anyway is the power that you have, and you don’t need anyone to give it to you; it’s yours entirely.

I’m sorry this took me so long to post back to you. As you can see I wrote a little more than I initially expected to, and it took a while. If it makes you feel even a little bit better to read it, then it was worth it.

Thanks so much for your ask, for your patience, and for your respect. I hope next time you want to drop me an ask, it’s in happier times.