#personally my take is jason giving up guns is ooc he's too dramatic for that shit

[danny-chase]

Warnings: violence, blood, realism in comics, me mentioning things stans want to ignore to make a point, you don't have to consider them canon, I'm just making a point don't hurt me

Right. Been seeing dialog about Jason's decision to give up guns that i feel is missing a few points.

1. Bruce is traumatized by guns. Yeah he jumps in the line of fire every night but that doesn't mean he isn't scared of/triggered by them:

[Image ID: Oracle!Babs and Robin!Tim roll/walk through the clocktower. Babs: (about guns) Hates them. But doesn't fear them. Tim: Not the way he jumps in the line of fire night after night. Babs: Line of fire... Babs: I was afraid of them for a long time. I'd go faint at the sight of a gun on TV. Tim: You have reasons, Barbara. So does Batman. Babs: But I. worked through them. Babs: Maybe Bruce hasn't. Maybe he's not the rock we thought he was. Tim: He bought a gun as therapy? Babs: Look at the facts. He bought it just like any other citizen. Like he wanted to experience it as someone else would. Tim: I don't think- Computer: Keyword media search alert. Tim: What's that? End ID]

Birds of Prey (1998) #40

Bruce's opposition of guns is partially based in trauma - it's not completely a moral stance or completely logical rule. Jason giving up guns is for himself, but it allows him to be closer to Bruce and for Bruce to be more relaxed in his presence -> can make their relationship closer.

2. [X] weapon isn't even lethal. Getting cut/hurt + no health care = possible death from infection -> shooting a henchman with regular bullets in the foot can be lethal. Or cutting them with a batarang.

[Image ID: A girl walks home getting off the school bus. Girl: "Mama, I know you don't want to hear this, but --" She opens the door to an empty run down house. Girl: "Mama? Mama are you --?" She opens up the bathroom door, revealing her mother sweating and bleeding out on the ground, trying to press a towel to a wound on her side. Her mom is wearing a henchman outfit for the H.I.V.E. Girl: "Mama!" Mom: "Why -- Why are you home so soon?" The girl holds her mom in a sitting position. Girl: "This isn't the flu. You said you had the flu." Mom: "I -- I will be better soon. I just need to rest." Girl: "You need a hospital, mama." Mom: "No. If they find out -- they'll take you away from me. Send me back to Guatemala." The final panel shows a wisp of Ravens cape, the view zoomed out. Girl: "I know you want to protect me, but you need help now -- no matter what happens later." Raven: "Maybe I can help." End ID]

Titans: Titans Together #4

Similarly could ppl stop acting like rubber bullets are non lethal, everything the batfam uses can be lethal and cause scenes like above. Literally none of them can claim moral high ground they've all thrown batarangs in people's faces (off the top of my head, Jason nailed Dick with one in the face in BoC and Bruce got Jason in the neck in UTRH so there's the two characters at odds).

3. Jason/Bruce has never hurt an undeserving person. Jason isn't a mass murderer and you're slandering him. Bruce is the best dad ever you're an idiot for thinking otherwise.

...did you miss the times he tried to kill Tim? Or sprayed Dick with fear gas? Or shot Damian in the chest (not rubber bullets mind you). All of this happened in Battle of the Cowl. He poisoned 82 prisoners indiscriminately in Batman and Robin (2009) #23, went around killing random "thugs" in Brothers in Blood arc of Nightwing. Is it slander if he did it? Idk. If anyone can answer that lmk but everything is canon now so the point is moot.

And let me also say if everythings canon Bruce has also hurt/hit/abused his family (i don't have the specific issue numbers but runs that I've seen bad dad Bruce in are The New Titans, Batgirl (2000), Nightwing (1996), Tom Kings crap, RHATO rebirth, etc. I don't feel like going into detail but if hard pressed i will) don't try to paint me as a Bruce or Jason apologist/hater please

Also literally see the panel above 💀 the mom is an undocumented immigrant from Guatemala with an engineering degree she can't use because the US gov is literally fucking flaming garbage, so she had to take that job to provide for her daughter. Quit thinking extrajudicial murder/vigilantism is a woke take. No. Stop. Bad. Criminals have rights for a reason.

Can you choose to call the above things Jason and Bruce have done ooc and bad writing. Yep. Go ahead, be my guest. Just it's weird to me that ppl always seem to do it for one character and not the other. Like... that's not productive dialogue? And yeah both Jason and Bruce stans do this i just happened to see a post from a Jason stan so he got to be shamed first. If you think i think my fave is wrong, i literally made a post publically shaming him at one point, and wrote an entire fic dedicated to me pointing out why i think characters would hate him the most 🤷‍♀️ if someone read a comic that shows your fave in a bad light don't call them stupid for not liking that character just point them in the right direction and if you don't want to. Don't. Just block them. I'm tired of watching ppl act like their better than each other because they don't consider things canon (unless you stan a minority character and don't consider their racist/sexist writing canon in which case, same, you're the best ppl in this fandom)💀 or referencing fanon as canon and telling ppl to go read more comics 💀

Anyways the takeaways I've come out with are, this debate between the two is more than just morals, they've both wronged each other, and trying to simplify it down into victim and abuser is just - missing nuance and ignoring their full histories in my opinion and kinda just ends up flattening both characters and making both of them less relatable