#rayssyscourse

[rayssyscourse]

Any endogenic system who is truly endogenic and not a traumagenic system in denial doesn't need persecutors or protectors and shouldn't use those terms

Makes sense. That's all I have to say about this one. It makes sense.

[indigochromatic]

From @rayssyscourse (this post), two questions for general conversation: 1- Does your experience of plurality feel inherently disordered to you or not, independent of whether or not you have a CDD? 2- How do you think about personhood and identity, collectively and individually? (our answers under the cut)

Plurality and Disorderedness: We actually sort of have two different answers to this! The distinction between the two of us (e.g. me/L vs S), to us, doesn't feel inherently disordered at all. Sure, it's complicated, and there are aspects of the situation we'd change if we could (it would really be nice if S could have his own body back, for example), but the mere fact of us-being-two-of-us, of having two senses of self in one head instead of just one, feels no more or less disordered than being a singlet. It doesn't feel like the only reason we're separate is lingering trauma/emotional baggage pushing us apart, and there's no sense of wrongness in the feeling of each other being different--we're just different, and that's actually really neat in a lot of ways. However, for S's median facet subsystem thing, the answer is a little different. (Trying to paraphrase his emotions/wording for it secondhand here) To some extent, some of the ways in which his facets can get pushed apart/lose "collective cohesion" does feel inherently disordered to him. It's less that "having facets" feels inherently disordered, exactly, and more that the degree of estrangement and conflict between his facets (which fluctuates!) feels directly related to his mental health at the time, and whatever issues he's wrestling with. Being able to go in and single out and work with a facet that's having a hard time feels like a useful processing strategy, but needing to do it a lot, or having a facet get stuck 'out in the cold for too long' feels bad, and reflective of something Wrong. Personhood and Identity: Again, two different answers for our two different 'versions' of plurality! S and I feel like two different, closely connected people. Either of us could be a singlet alone, without the other--and in fact I was a singlet for a long time, at least as far as we know--although we do like each other a lot (<3) and like being able to be a team together. Calling either of us just "a part of the other" feels reductive and even a little demeaning--not to mention just...incorrect, at the base of it? One of the metaphors we like to use is "it's not that he has half the box of crayons and I have the other half; we each get to use the whole box of crayons, we just draw different things with them". With S's median facets, though, he/(they) very persistently and vehemently feel like they're all...part of the same overarching identity? They're all him even when they disagree or have differences (there's a line from a song he likes that he often points to for it: "We are the warriors who learned to love the pain/We come from different places but have the same name"), there's a core, unifying sense of self they all share even when their 'cohesion' gets disrupted by something difficult to process that he can't quite seamlessly internally reconcile. We have some internal nicknames for some facets/'themes' that show up a lot (because the number and nature of his facets isn't static, too), and internal headspace appearances can vary, but they don't have different names because, in his words, "I'm still me, there's just....sometimes a lot of me, who don't all agree".

(Several of our friends have joked that we're the actual IRL version of the system joke "I don't have DID, but my headmate does!", and honestly that's not a bad way to describe it X'D)

[system-of-a-feather]

Documentation of Early Sysconversation Tag Coining

Because I feel like down the line there may be questions on the definition and purpose of the sysconversation tag, I did want to document some of the early coiners / founders of the tag since I myself was relying on memory to know who were some of the prominent people in founding it. I know when it comes to online discourse, a lot of people like to play "well I understood it as this" and "the original purpose was this not that".

For that purpose, I took a bit to scroll to the very bottom of the sysconversation tag and document a little history of it while "scrolling to the bottom of the tag" was still a SOMEWHAT reasonable adventure to go on.

-------

Note Before the Post

The purpose of this post is not to say "these people are better than others" or "these people are inherently The Bosses of the tag". I personally dislike when one person claims ownership over a community; if anything, this is my attempt at making it easier in the future (as the tag hopefully grows and gains more history) to record the history behind it while it is still relatively easy so that should conflicts come up, there are a number of individuals who are hopefully still around that may have credibility in discussing their role in the founding of the tag.

If anything, I am making this post because I do my best in the tag to try to keep the Vibes Right with the original intent as I love the tag, but deeply dislike that every time I do so, it sounds like I am claiming the tag as my creation; this among anything else is me wanting to share other people who played a large role in founding it as to make it clear that I am only one of MANY founders. The Sysconversation tag is inherently not "made" by any one person and is a tag made by a Community of people; please do not use this document with the intent to claim ownership of the tag and use this as something of a timeline.

--------

October 23, 2023

@artisticdysfunction made a poll suggesting the tag "sysconversation" to "actually discuss stuff" ; in that thread @hiiragi7 @greens-spilled-tea us (@system-of-a-feather) @sysciety engaged in some discussion about the concept, idea, and plan to develop the original tag

Posts in this Brief creation Period were made by those five individuals in addition to @traumascumathena @indigochromatic @actuallyverynormalbtw

The tag did not particularly last long in it's original creation as it did not have many posts beyond a few interesting threads and a few one-post posts. Most activity had died in the tag by November 2023 and was dead for months after a post by @hiiragi7 on December 23, 2023

June 20, 2024

@sysciety suggests to bring back the tag for "actual discussions" because "syscourse seems beyond saving sometimes"; much of the original founders engage with the post with agreement along with @korya-elana @scapeg8ats @clover-system and @snowglobe-system

Following the revive, there were a number of individuals who had posted - more than the original creation period - so I can not list everyone; with that said, there was a semi-organized direct effort to populate the tag in hopes of making it survive; some of which were people I directly talked to about the revival of the tag as I was optimistic and hoping for the space

The original people involved in the development of the tag in October were back to support the revival as well as much of the original posters in the tag.

A few repeat faces appeared in the July era that have stuck around consistently including @wondercourse @paracosmic-gt @quoigenicfromhell @cosmoscollect @the-sour-patch-crew @rayssyscourse @thecircularsystem

-----------

Disclaimer

I radically and heavily block people; it is not a personal thing, I simply take the curation of my internet space very intentionally and anything I'd rather not see (which can range from bigotry to poor / disrespectful rhetoric to just too many userboxes or personal squicks / triggers) so there is a chance when I was doing this documentation that someone may have been missed. If anyone commented above would like to comment any corrections / key individuals (preferably with post citation) that I missed that should be placed on this as a reference down the line, please do so as I am hoping to not bias this (and I only realized I can't see blocked posts in the tags until AFTER I finished collecting this, RIP me) but I am not perfect

[raysrambles]

obligatory intro post :)

About me!

hi! call me Ray, my pronouns are he/they/xe/aer. I am a minor (don't be weird) and I am a polytherian and otherkin! :) (therio/kintypes: crow, feline cladotherian, black rocky mountains wolf, arctic fox, dragon, and I also am the whole universe and all of the particles and planets and thoughts and voids and galaxies and stars and memories and everything else in it)

I'm currently hyperfixated on Centricide and kind of like permanently hyperfixated on warrior cats and wings of fire, my other interests include music (mainly punk rock and psychedelic rock), law and politics, drawing, writing, a large variety of sciences, and video games! (favs include: pokemon, animal crossing, stardew valley, skyrim, night in the woods, and like a bajillion others)

I'm the host of a medically recognized traumagenic sys of 6, but I'm probably the only one who's gonna post on here. I'm super open to talk syscourse, but please keep it on my syscourse sideblog (see sideblogs below). I might post about other disorders I'm diagnosed with, but I don't care to list them here (or anywhere).

DNI (or the lack thereof)

Only DNI is NSFW/kink/para blogs since I'm a minor. Besides that, idc who interacts; if I don't vibe with you I'll just block. And fwiw, I block super liberally based on whatever the hell I feel like, so it's probably not personal.

Sideblogs

Syscourse: @rayssyscourse

Avian alterhuman blog: @raptors-rapture

Pokemon IRL/rp blog: @just-another-murkrow-lover

Tags

#ray is rambling - my own posts

#ray talks politics - political stuff, this tag is just there so people can block it if they don't wanna see political stuff from me :)

userbox by @/kthecritter :D

[rayssyscourse]

punk and former anti-endo here: how... how does being pro endo go against punk values?? punk is about breaking down oppressive systems and being unapologetically yourself/doing whatever the fuck you want as long as it doesn't oppress others... how does that equate to being anti endo???? usually I hate calling people posers because that's stupid, but uh... this is some poser shit right here

(also like. punk has pretty much nothing to do with syscourse. what is op (from the screenshot) on about)

Hm. The math ain’t mathin’

[rayssyscourse]

syscourse hot take (more like syscourse tired take honestly) "pro/neutral/anti-endo": for anyone who's endogenic in any way, or even just previously thought they were endogenic, it's really tiring (and not conducive to constructive conversation) to have so many syscourse labels revolve around...an innate aspect of someone's lived experience. Like. We are fully aware that plenty of people who label themselves "anti-endo" don't necessarily think that endogenic systems are fake and/or evil etc, that's just purely a demonstrably true statement. We don't even think that the people using "anti-endo" that way are necessarily Terrible People for doing so. Simultaneously, though, speaking as a system who spent years thinking we were 100%-basic-vanilla-endogenic but still wanted to take part in nuanced discussions around system experiences and offer our perspectives on discourse--seeing 'anti-endo' or even 'endo-neutral' always still...stung a little? Even when someone was conversing in good faith. Like, the idea that it was acceptable for our personhood (which really is what it felt like the arguments were about! whether one of us was 'just a made-up daydream' and not a person) to be up for debate, that it was an acceptable "political football" or thing to be "neutral" about...wasn't a good feeling. And honestly, even though we technically have a DID dx on paper these days, we still get that little flicker of distrust whenever we see 'anti-endo' in someone's bio--because we're still exactly the same system that we were before, and if they wouldn't have believed us about our experiences then...why do they think so much depends on some rubber-stamp diagnosis? what do they think changed? We don't have a good answer to this problem, though. Telling people that they're automatically terrible bigots for not labeling themselves pro-endo doesn't feel like it'll actually solve anything, because crucially I don't think that most of the "doesn't actually believe endos are fake or bad"-anti-endos are calling themselves that for a reason that simply shaming them sufficiently will change. Also, the internet is a big place, and expecting everyone to be up-to-date on every possible niche discourse stance is absurd--and if someone really just wants to stay the heck away from system discourse entirely, they should be able to. But also...yeah, we wish they'd use different words. Don't use "anti-[unchangeable aspect of someone's identity]" and not expect it to feel hurtful to see. "Well, I just don't want people Like That interacting with me..." what if they just thought your art was cool? What if they agreed with your hot take about [insert fandom here]? Who else are you 'anti', not because you disagree with some opinion they hold, but purely because you're 'nothing like them'? Idk. It's frustrating, and I wish we had some kind of easy, magic solution.

thank you!! this is a really well written thought, and i fully agree.

to be honest, this is one of (admittedly many) reasons i dropped pro/anti-endo labels altogether. not only can they come across as denying somebody's existence, but i feel like we just don't fit in simple boxes like that. i mean, "pro-endo" can mean any plethora of things: it could mean the person is endogenic, they support endos, they don't engage in syscourse/just don't care, they just disagree with anti-endo points, etc etc. in the same way, "anti-endo" can also mean a million things. some anti-endos think endos are all faking, some think they're misinformed, some believe they exist but think they're spreading too much misinfo, some think they're doing harm to traumagenic communities, etc. i also just don't like the black-and-white way those labels portray us. somebody being pro-endo doesn't mean they support every single endo, it doesn't mean they necessarily support radqueers (weird misconception i see a lot), and it doesn't mean they have no criticisms of the endogenic community. i know a lot of anti-endos who fully believe and don't hate endos but just have criticisms of the label and/or community, who are often assumed to hate all endos or think all endos are faking because the label is just too broad and comes across completely wrong.

sorry to ramble on for so long in one giant paragraph lol. tl;dr, you're so right, say it louder for the people in the back!!

[rayssyscourse]

Hello friends! I totally did not forget this blog existed for several months! Sorry for the inactivity, life gets in the way lmao.

How's everyone been? Any new syscourse topics I need to get my ass on? What tea have y'all been drinking lately?

Asks are open to questions, opinions, hot takes, or... random shit :)

[rayssyscourse]

very important syscourse question

what's you guys' favorite kind of tea?? personally I recently got this vanilla tea that I've been mixing with mint leaves from my garden and it tastes amazing (with the added bonus of making me feel very fancy and aesthetic).

if you don't like tea, just tell me your favorite drink or what color the sky is for you right now or something in your head that you haven't gotten the chance to scream into the void about yet

[rayssyscourse]

yes! this is a trap I fell into back when I was much more anti endo. many anti endos are upset on the basis of "endos think they have DID without trauma", which would be a valid concern if that was actually the case. it's a straw man that the minority of malicious people made and pointed the majority of genuinely concerned people at to fight. making that claim is not only going to weaken your argument, but it'll cause people to dismiss any other points you might be making because they think you are blindly and/or willingly using that straw man.

Part of what makes syscourse so frustrating is that so many anti-endos somehow still don't understand our most basic claim.

We do not have DID, but we are plural. There is plurality outside the disorders.

On the occasion that they do bother to cite sources, it's about how DID is caused by trauma. Cool. But we don't have it, because as you often remind us, DID doesn't just mean alters, it includes a lot of other baggage. We don't have that baggage, therefore we don't have DID. But we're still plural. Yapping on and on about how DID doesn't work like that is completely irrelevant.

To actually fight our stance, you would have to cite a source casting doubt on endogenic plurality as a whole.

[rayssyscourse]

endogenic doesnt mean that someone is not disordered from having a system, it just means that their system didnt form from trauma. in the same vein, traumagenic doesnt mean that a system is disordered, only that their system formed from trauma. endogenic systems can be diagnosed with osdd and did.

im tired of seeing posts about a disorder i have that people dont want me to interact with because of the -genic label i choose to use. the -genic label i chose to use, mind you, because people wouldnt stop taking posts i made about being disordered and adding anti endo tags to them.

honestly i think -genic labels are silly anyways. they tell you zero information about a system past how they formed, which in the grand scheme of things is much less important than how that system might be functioning now.

I think I get where you're coming from. My main question is, how would an endo system get diagnosed with did/osdd? cuz the definitions of those is having a system formed from trauma, so how could you have one of them and still be endogenic? (genuine question, I'm not trying to attack you, just confused)

anyways, I think you have a good point that -genic labels are too broad and don't tell you very much about the system itself. however, I do still think it's fair for people to want traumagenic only or endo only spaces. the -genic labels have a lot of issues, yes, but they do hold *some* meaning.

[rayssyscourse]

why are we making syscourse a punk thing: an unedited ramble

no seriously. maybe I'm missing something but why are we all fighting about whether punk is pro or anti endo? the answer is no, it's neither. I'm very punk irl, fairly involved in my local scene, have been for around two years, and I can assure you that punk and syscourse are just... really not related. i mean, I can understand both sides--people who think endos are being ableist can make the case of "I'm punk, so I'm anti ableism", likewise pro endos can make the case of "I'm punk, so I think everyone's identity is valid"--but there's no black and white answer because, simply put, this is just unrelated. again, I can see how, if you're punk, you might use the punk ethos to explain your viewpoint, but for the love of god, please stop taking the label "punk" and trying to twist it to make a completely unrelated argument?? also, the only "argument" this strategy seems to be making is that (pro)endos/anti endos 'arent punk', which is stupid. for one thing, it's not a crime to not be punk, and it's completely absurd to just assume everybody is/wants to be punk (the entire POINT is to go AGAINST the mainstream, not to become it). and second, this is the exact behavior of those punks who go around calling everyone else a poser just to jerk themselves off about how much "more punk" they are. and that's not very punk, now is it? also also: punk is more than just an abstract set of beliefs. those are obviously very important to punk, but just holding those values doesn't (necessarily) make you punk. go outside, hit up your local scene, jump in a mosh put or something, and you'll realize that punk is a community, punk is a people, far more than it is an abstract moral code. seriously, my life took a turn for the better when I got into actual punk music and culture, because it was the tight knit and supportive community that I needed at the time. nobody sat down and drilled me about my every little opinion on everything. we just play loud music and fuck around and curb stomp bigots. i can guarantee everyone fighting under this tag would be much better off actually engaging in the punk community instead of arbitrarily arguing about it online.

sorry to ramble folks! but this was driving me insane, so I'm only like half sorry

[rayssyscourse]

how & why my syscourse opinions have changed over time

i've been meaning to make a post like this for a while now, and i finally sat down to actually write it LOL. for those of you who aren't familiar with me/this blog, i used to be a very steadfast anti-endo. over the past several months i changed my label to endo critical for a while and then ditched labels as a whole. so, what changed me from being firmly anti-endo to being... something that's not that? let's talk about it!

Learning that I had kind of been arguing with a straw man

One of many anti-endos' biggest issues with endos is the idea that they are faking DID/OSDD or are claiming to have a CDD without trauma. As I found out, turns out that's just... not really the case. Most endos aren't claiming to have a CDD without trauma, they're just claiming to be plural without a CDD.

there's room for understandable confusion here. the current state of society sees plurality as almost solely a clinical thing, and equates being plural to having a CDD, as if one cannot exist without the other. this is kind of just... not true.

It IS true that CDDs are, in the vast majority of cases, formed due to trauma. However, that's not their only symptom. In order to be diagnosed w/ a CDD you also usually have to fit other criteria, including but not limited to dissociation, amnesia/memory gaps, trauma at certain ages, etc. So, it's totally possible for somebody to be plural but not have any of those other symptoms, and in that case they most likely would not be diagnosed with a CDD.

Seeing the issues with binary labels

As time went on, the binary labels of "pro" and "anti" seemed less and less helpful to me. Calling myself anti-endo seemed to give people an automatic idea that I hated all endos, and honestly I started to see why. Calling myself "anti" an arbitrary word that described a whole lot of various and involuntary experiences seemed... Not at all helpful. Plus, I didn't like being associated with the aspenfrostens of the world; I didn't want to be seen as the same as people who went around mindlessly harassing random people for no reason. Pro and anti labels didn't really give anyone any information about my actual beliefs, it just gave them a preconceived notion to judge me off of.

Literally just talking to more people

For a long time my only interaction with endogenic systems was a select group of people (well, really one main person) who were really fucking shitty to me. It gave me the incorrect notion that the endogenic community as a whole was the same. As I cut contact with that person and their friend group, and I started this blog and engaging with other people in the syscourse/sysconvo community, I realized that most people were just... regular, polite people. Some people who were especially kind and understanding towards me (even when I was making some shitty takes lmao) were @thecircularsystem, @indigochromatic, and @clover-system. (Thanks guys!)

There's a lot more to say, but thats all I'm up for typing for now. Have a lovely day everyone!!!

[rayssyscourse]

Hey! Endo critical here, I don't use the anti endo label but lean that way. I know I'm late to this post, so no worries if you're done responding to stuff on it lol.

First, the doxxing thing: I fully agree. Doxxing is fucked up no matter who you are, and that's the end of it. Thankfully I have never been doxxed (knock on wood, lol) and I don't know anything about pro endos being infamous for it, but if it helps I do not associate y'all with that. As far as I'm concerned, doxxers represent their own fucked up selves and not whatever community/group they're in. I mean, I wouldn't accept an anti endo or endo critical into my spaces if they doxxed people.

As for the other stuff, I can only give you my perspective, but here's what I think. I have my problems with the endo community. I can't say I'm pro endo/support endos because of the issues I see. However, I don't think I have the right to tell people what they're experiencing. If somebody says they're experiencing plurality, who am I to say "no you're not"? My issues lie within the behavior of the community as a whole, and the state of the plural community as it is right now. But I don't take issue with individual endos just existing.

While I haven't been doxxed, I have had very negative experiences with specific endos (really one in particular), but if anything that's only led me to better understand that certain bad individuals do not represent their community. Their behavior left a bad taste in my mouth, but then I saw many more endos being perfectly respectful and kind towards me, so I guess this is just my very roundabout way of saying that I fully agree with what you're saying about the fact that bad individuals don't define the community as a whole. I'd like to think, at least, that the same goes for us.

I am genuinely sorry for the times when anti endos have harassed and attacked you guys just for existing. You do not deserve that; nobody should be attacked simply for being there. Your existence is not a problem. At least from what I've seen, most anti endos have problems with the community as a whole, and attacking individuals is not the solution to that problem. Most of us come from a place of genuine concern, but some of us take that out as anger and harassment, and that is not okay. Those people do not represent my beliefs, and I fully believe that there are others like me who want to be respectful and don't condone harassment towards endos whose only "crime" was existing.

And yeah, I've seen a lot of good from endos. Hell, I've made pro endo mutuals just in the short time of having this sideblog who I probably never would have interacted with six months ago, who turned out to be lovely people. I don't follow many endo/pro endo blogs solely for the reason that most of them don't want anti endos interacting and I don't want to intrude on their space, so I can't say whether I agree with most or any of their stances, but I respect endos/pro endos who respect me.

Idk, this got super long and rambley, so I'm sorry for that lmao. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see you and understand the frustration of being both a target of and blamed for harassment from/by both sides, and that I promise there are still some of us out here who respect you guys.

Yo, anti endos! Quick question! Have you or anyone you actually know been doxxed? And was the doxxer an Endogenic supporter or system? I’m curious. Because you guys LOVE saying we’re infamous for doxxing and I’ve never seen any examples, stories or proof of it happening, let alone being common.

People on both sides have the potential to doxx others. It’s not some unique trait that only Endogenic systems can do. I’ve even learned through this that, during the apparent doxxing event that happened in recent times, that Endogenic blogs were getting hit too. Endogenic systems get harassment and fakeclaimed and told they are disgusting just saying they exist. They get told that they’re hurting people and stealing resources. Endogenic systems aren’t the only ones who attack or harass people. No one should be doing it, but everyone always points to us like we’re the ones causing every issue… please understand that I and many other blogs just want peace and to be accepted and understood instead of shunned out of spaces and put in DNIs next to p*dos and homophobes..

If you have been doxxed, I’m sorry! I’m genuinely, wholeheartedly sorry. That sounds bloody terrifying. No one deserves that! Please remember not to blame an entire community for a few bad actors. The Endogenic community, if you were to talk to and understand them, would almost universally agree that you didn’t deserve it and that it was horrible that it happened to you. I say ‘almost’ because there are some who just are bad people, or who have been burned by anti-endos so badly to the point that they think it’s deserved (they are wrong).

I’ve also been enlightened to anti-endos who like some endo-supportive blogs and agree with some stances and respect people- those accounts having that respect should show that endos are far from evil or invasive as a whole… that the Endogenic community doesn’t stand for hatred and harassment..

From our perspective, anti-endos are the aggressors. Anti-endos make blogs mocking and hating us, they post us to cringe sites/compilations, they fakeclaim and make jokes at our expense, I’ve seen threats of violence and have had at least one (now deleted) ask sent to me by anti-endos to harass me.. I’m genuinely sorry some horrible people who say they hurt others in the name of Endogenic systems hurt you. They do not represent us. We want to stand with you. We want to help bring acceptance and broaden perspectives and help all systems out. That’s the honest truth.

Endogenic blogs as a whole are not your enemies, only those who actively hurt people are.. the doxxers are the enemy. We are all getting hurt, we are all turned against each other.. the lgbt community faces similar issues. Our enemies want to divide and conquer. We shouldn’t let internal struggle destroy us.

[rayssyscourse]

discussion prompt :)

thanks @snezhnayan-nights and @indigochromatic for giving me this discussion idea!! (hope y'all are okay with being tagged, lemme know if you want me to take you off)

So, we talk about safe spaces a whole lot in syscourse, so I thought it would be nice to hear what everyone actually wants in a safe space. This can be for any safe space (traumagenics, endogenics, endo supporters, anti endos, whatever); but what makes a safe space actually feel safe and helpful to you? And what is some of the best things you've gotten from safe spaces that you'd like to see more of?

[rayssyscourse]

ironically unironically want drinkcourse to be a thing. like syscourse has been a mess recently, let's wash that shit down and cleanse our pallettes by turning syscourse into drinkcourse for a bit before we jump back in

ps. i'm so (kinda) (not) sorry for the terrible puns. I typed them and Moon won't let me delete them because they think it's hilarious. I'll do a YouTuber apology if I need to

[rayssyscourse]

i got one me n a sys friend argue heatedly abt all the time: should drinks like water n sodas be could or room temp

cold. I don't know why this is a question. why would you want them room temperature??? that defeats the whole point. that would make them lukewarm AND flat, which are the two things soda isn't supposed to be. at that point why are you even drinking soda instead of just water or juice????? /lh

side note: I love how after my tea post, like a third of my blog is chains discussing drinks. this is the REAL syscourse right here. send more drinkcourse, I drink this shit up (terrible pun intended)