#roquen meta

[fincalinde]

i would love your madam yu thoughts please

I have to admit this was not someone I was expecting to be asked about! But I actually do have thoughts on her, because even though I never talk about him JC is in my top 5. And you really cannot engage with JC without engaging with his mother.

What I think YZY exemplifies is the way that in MDZS the narrative depicts nuanced characters without falling into the tedious trap of either condemning or endorsing them. It's not particularly interested in telling us whether YZY is a bad person or a good person, because it doesn't consider that kind of sweeping judgement helpful or even necessarily relevant; but that also doesn't mean it's taking a mealy-mouthed neutral position on her either. Her parenting style is presented as unambiguously wrong, both morally and in the sense that it is not achieving her desired result.

YZY is selfish and domineering. She tears down both of her children, and neither of them will ever be good enough. She actively targets WWX. But this behaviour is firmly situated in context: she's from a clan where women hold a lot of power; she's frustrated with her husband's behaviour; she's frustrated that her son is outshone by WWX; she's concerned about WWX's power and attitude and how that could destabilise the Jiang. All of these are sensible and realistic motivations, and her concerns are presented as legitimate even as her way of dealing with them is highlighted as both harsh and counterproductive.

The text doesn't let YZY off the hook for her behaviour. She's not redeemed or 'good, actually' just because she does ultimately love her son and because she's in a frustrating position. But she also isn't condemned as an irredeemable abuser either. What should be taken from that is not that it's not worth discussing the good and the bad she does. It's just that it's vitally important to remember that morality is not the only metric by which a character should be analysed or responded to. What I like about YZY is that I have a very clear sense of who she is, why she is who she is, and why she does everything she does—all of which drives the plot forwards and enriches our understanding of more central characters such as JC and WWX.

[thatswhatsushesaid]

So I'm ngl I followed you because my partner really likes jiggy and I am trying desperately to like. Care more about him and enjoy him because of this. I didn't read through the whole post about life debts and nmj (who for the record I think is an asshole, but an interesting one, given his complete inability to see in shades of grey morality), but I did read the reblog you added comparing some of jiggy's actions to wwx's, which I actually found really interesting. Since wwx is my poor little meow meow, I'm wondering if approaching jiggy through the lens of their similarities etc might help nudge my brain more into liking him, so I was curious if you had any recommendations for like, good meta posts or gifsets or fics that get into this more?

I suspect that part of my problem is the novel is just my least favorite adaptation even though I dislike a lot of the plot changes that cql and the donghua did, because it's hard for me to read through, but I can overcome that. Probably.

hi hello!! I know we have chatted a bit already via messages, but I am so, so, so happy any time someone expresses any interest in developing a more comprehensive understanding of jgy's character.

user meta

in terms of linking you to specific bits of meta about parallels between jgy and wwx, it might be easier for me to just direct you to specific users who have written extensively on narrative parallels in mdzs in general: @xiyao-feels has written meta based on several close readings of the text and often highlights the importance of where jgy-specific events are situated, and this often includes callbacks to things that wwx has done, too. if you're keen on deep dives into what makes jgy tick and text-based explanations for why he does the things he does (and why his options are extremely limited), you should also check out @fincalinde's meta. fincalinde and xiyao-feels both ground their analysis of jgy (and xiyao lol but you don't have to read the xiyao meta if you aren't keen on it) in what we're presented in the text, so if you're worried about reading analysis that relies too much upon 'fanon,' that won't be a concern here. @confusion-and-more is another user who writes similar text-based meta along similar lines.

fan media

I tend not to look for good parallels in gifsets, but this one by @henshengs probably draws the most powerful, bittersweet parallels between wangxian, xiyao, and the relationship between lan wangji and lan xichen's parents. it's from the donghua rather than the drama, idk if you have a preference on that front.

the fic series it's worth it every time by @fincalinde (roquen on AO3) is by far the best series imo for digging into jgy's core motivations for doing the things that he does, and it also has the benefit of hewing extremely close to events as they unfold in canon. again, it's xiyao, which may not be your thing, but imo understanding the xiyao dynamic is pretty crucial to understanding jgy, too.

...okay!! I think this is a good place to get started? I will see what else I can dig up for you, and like I said, I have a few other bits of meta in my drafts atm that are focused specifically on wwx-jgy parallels and comparisons, so once I finish and publish those, I'll ping you about it. 👍

edit: ooh, editing my post to add a link to these two pieces of wangxian and xiyao fanart by @hawberries which are intended to be viewed side by side for maximum heartbreak.

[xiyao-feels]

new tu and xiyao fan from earlier. i searched ao3 as per your suggestion and there's only 500 or so fics for them. :( however, i do have a legit question - what are the differences between mdzs and tu (i've never read the latter). and if you want expand on nieyao (or xiyao) please feel free! i love reading meta! one of the few reasons i miss old school fandom spaces lol. thank you!! :D

Hmmm, I see about eight hundred if I limit to English? But I take your point! But that was just as a way to start; once you do find an author you like, you can look at their bookmarks, for example. (Also I'm not sure if you're familiar with the AO3, but if not, sorting by kudos when doing a general search is a way to get stuff that at least lots of people thought was good. I'm not saying it's perfect, but when you're starting in a fandom it can be better than the default by-date-updated.)

Also I'll take the opportunity to plug my absolute favourite xiyao author, roquen. I didn't mention them last time because they haven't I believe written a post-canon fixit, and you should know that they're mostly sticking to MDZS instead of CQL canon, although with some sprinkling of CQL elements and characterization. Some particular favourites of mine include their AtLA AU and their Sunshot/on the run fics (both series with a couple of short fics), their what you might call a mid-temple hopeful fix-it (divergence where LWJ strikes to kill and LXC takes the blow), the baby LXC fic ("Lan Xichen reverts to being a fifteen-year-old junior, and immediately gets an epic crush on Lianfang-zun"; disclaimer that I was fairly involved with the creation of this one but it's GREAT) and, of course, above all, their gigantic canon fix-it verse, it's worth it every time. It's SO GOOD and the characterization is fantastic and the prose is excellent and UGH. It's so good!!!!! Disclaimer that the second fic in the series, which is the main work, is still WIP, but roquen updates regularly and there are only a couple of chapters left; if you're still wary of WIPs, I'd at least recommend the first fic, which stands alone and is brilliant in its own right.

As to the differences between MDZS and CQL…ho boy. There are quite a few, both major and minor, and I'm by no means familar with all of them—especially the ones that don't involve 3zun, lol. I tried to google around but unfortunately the ones I found tended to be either short or, if more in-depth, contain inaccuracies about JGY/LXC—I think people tend to be more interested in the Wangxian, and then this stuff goes by the wayside. The wiki can be a good source for differences for specific incidents, and although I think it's not always accurate it /does/ usually cite chapter or episode, which can be pretty helpful. 

This, by hualiann, looks like a good overview, though I'd add that JYL, WQ and WN didn't study at Cloud Recesses in the novel and that more generally MDZS has a lot of actual undead.

In general my advice is to take things people say about the novel with a large grain of salt, myself included. And about CQL, too! I have no idea if this is you but when I joined the fandom, if people asserted stuff about CQL I tended to just kind of take it as fact—oh, I thought, I must have misremembered! My memory is pretty terrible, and honestly there was absolutely stuff I did misremember. But also sometimes other people misremember, or fanon gets taken as canon, and then there's stuff like—I mean, I'm certainly not going to blame people for not realizing that "JGY conspired with XY at the Unclean Realm" is a lot more uncertain than you might guess at first, especially if they're more Wangxian focused which most people in the fandom are, but I'm still not going to present it as straight-up fact. (veliseraptor has a recent post examining this here which I would very much recommend).

Honestly I think I'd recommend reading the MDZS NMJ Empathy flashback—chapters 48, 49, and the beginning of 50. That gets you a lot of the JGY, LXC and NMJ backstory, and then you can compare for yourself! I'm also going to recommend Mercy's thread, here, listing common fanons about MDZS (I will add to the list, since it's a bugbear of mine, the idea that LXC recognized NMJ's fierce corpse by his abs).

Okay with all that out of the way, and in no particular order, Sun's extremely idiosyncratic and particularly- aka mostly JGY-focused differences list:

-In MDZS, LXC doesn't become Sect Leader until the burning of Cloud Recesses by the Wen, when his father is injured and then succumbs to his wounds. In CQL, he's Sect Leader from the beginning of the show, his father having apparently died not too long before the show started.

-In MDZS, MY wasn't working for the Nie at all before the beginning of Sunshot; he joined the Nie forces just after Sunshot began. NMJ didn't instantly promote him to be his deputy when he's telling at the Nie men for bad-mouthing him; it takes a few more encounters and/or battles with the Wen (after which MY clears the battlefield and helps the commoners).

-In MDZS, xiyao's first meeting happens when LXC is on the run with the Lan books after the burning of Cloud Recesses. We don't see it happen on the page, and we don't know any details of that time beyond, like, MY helped LXC.

-NMJ willingly sends MY away from the Nie, with a letter of recommendation for JGS, after, uh, an extended overhearing of a conversation between MY and LXC wherein MY's desire to be recognized by his father and gain a proper place in the Jin, the opportunity offered for that by JGS recruiting talent at Langya, and the possible difficulty of obtaining permission from NMJ are all established. 

-NMJ sees MY stabbing a /Jin/ captain, at Langya, after he goes looking for MY. Rather than taking a blow for NMJ, MY stabs himself, faking suicide, then immobilizes NMJ (who's trying to save his life) and flees. This is because NMJ wants MY to go turn himself in for killing the captain; MY thinks they'll kill him, while NMJ says that if the captain has actually been mistreating MY as MY said, MY won't be killed. Personally I think that all the evidence suggests that MY is right, and NMJ is blind to the effects of his position to the extent it's a not insignificant moral failure.

-Okay, so, you know how in CQL MY stabs WRH while he's distracted with WWX, outside on the steps with the Sunshot alliance right outside? In /MDZS/, they're in the Sun Palace, WWX isn't anywhere near the place, he does it to save NMJ's life, and then he starts lugging NMJ's unconscious body out of the palace. And then NMJ comes to consciousness amd demands his sabre and tries to kill him. He likely only survives because of NMJ's wounds, and if LXC hadn't shown up (responding to a message MY sent for aid for NMJ) NMJ might easily have killed him. If you want a more in-depth analysis, I take a close look here in my response to someone's, er, imaginative interpretation of NMJ and JGY's relationship in MDZS.

-In CQL, NMJ's qi deviation happens at the stairs incident. In MDZS, it happens later, when he overhears JGY being upset to LXC about how NMJ treated him at the stairs, and, overcome with rage that JGY would dare (arguably in combination with being polite and pleasant to NMJ's face, although the last time he was confrontational to NMJ's face NMJ kicked him down the stairs and tried to kill him so), he kicks open the door and tries to kill him. He also kills several people as he's qi deviating (seeing them as JGY—while in CQL he also sees several JGYs they seem to be just illusions), and injures NHS.

-In MDZS, NMJ sets fire to all of NHS' nice things. I don't think we're told either way in CQL, although it's worth noting that in MDZS this happens after the stairs (and before JGY starts playing for him again). (I think they do something in FJ?? But I don't take FJ as canon for CQL; see confusion-and-more's post here).

-In CQL, JGY suggests to NMJ that he's always played the corrupted Clarity for him (though granted this is in Empathy, so it's hard to say for sure if this is what he actually said, but in any case it's the only version we're given). In MDZS, it's strongly indicated that JGY only started playing Turmoil for NMJ /after/ the stairs—there's a variety of evidence, but I think the most objective is that WWX, who in MDZS Empathy can literally feel NMJ's anger, actually observes it working beforehand:

Since [JGY started playing for NMJ], Jin GuangYao would travel from Lanling to Qinghe every few days, playing Sound of Lucidity to help quell Nie MingJue rage. He tried his hardest, without speaking even a single word of complaint. Sound of Lucidity was indeed effective. Wei WuXian could clearly feel that the hostile energy within Nie MingJue was being suppressed.

(Exiled Rebels translation, ch. 49)

And then the next scene is the stairs incident, so.

-In general, the degree to which JGY's position is completely awful is played down in CQL. confusion-and-more talks about it a bit here; I'd also note that some of JGY's dialogue defending himself is removed ( “Some trivial achievements?” He spoke in a shaking voice, “…What do you mean, some trivial achievements? ChiFeng-Zun, do you know how much work I put into such trivial achievements? How much I suffered? Glory? Without the handful of glory I have nothing!”, for example), we don't hear about his mother at the guqin scene, the temple flashback where his mother is dragged naked outside by a client and he's kicked down the brothel stairs is eliminated, etc etc.

-There is absolutely no second flutist in MDZS; also JGY tells us in the temple that QS was already pregnant before he found out about the incest. I think even in CQL it's questionable whether he actually intended to kill Zixuan (see this whole conversation), and significant unveiling or no CQL never actually says QS wasn't pregnant before their marriage so I tend to go with that too, but certainly it's easy to walk away with the impression that he definitely did both deliberately, especially if you aren't familiar with the novel.

-(In general, I think CQL JGY is a lot more sympathetic than most people think once you look closely, but he's also very much set up to look upon a more casual watching as Villain, so.)

-In CQL it's All A-Yao All The Time but in MDZS we see LXC calling him san-di after the sworn brotherhood, and then it's back to A-Yao in the present day (see my last addition on this chain here).

-In MDZS, JGY doesn't shove JL out of the way of the incoming attack.

-The LXC lifting JGY out of his bow thing is from CQL

-The watchtowers! Oh /man/ the watchtowers. God the watchtowers are so much. Uh, confusion-and-more has a post about how much they're mentioned in MDZS vs CQL here, and see my last addition to this thread for an argument that the watchtowers were indeed a force for good. God. Twelve hundred watchtowers. He must have saved so many lives...

-confusion-and-more's watchtower post also reminds me that CQL has the Guanyin temple giving out medicine, while MDZS does not

-The episode 23 scene where Sect Leaders Jin, Nie, and Lan agree to spare some of the Wen doesn't exist in MDZS (though I'll take the opportunity to observe that I disagree with popular interpretations of that scene, see point three here).

-In MDZS NMJ's fierce corpse is literally trying to kill JGY, there's no saber spirit. And like, it's been trying to kill JGY for a long damn time, that's why JGY dismembered him.

-The XY plotline—in MDZS, JGY recommends a young XY (who at thay point has a reputation but is not known to have committed any massacres) as a Jin cultivator, as part of an effort by JGS to recreate the Yin Tiger Seal. JGS has multiple people trying, but most of them aren't getting anywhere and XY is getting furthest. It's during this time that XY kills the Chang clan, and is discovered as guilty by XXC, who brings up the evidence at a conference happening in Lanling; the Jin are stalling, MMJ gets angry and shows up, he almost kills XY on the spot and gives JGS a lecture such that he's forced to relent and sentence XY to death (and incidentally scares JGY, imho quite seriously, while he's at it). Then JGS turns it into life imprisonment once NMJ has left, and then NMJ is extremely angry and attacks JGY at the stairs. (Ch. 30 and 118)

-I mentioned before but I'll add it here too: in CQL JGY asks LXC to stay and die with him, and LXC agrees.

-The CQL ending in general is...hmmm. Despite having most of the elements which complicate MDZS' ending (JL is in a terrible position!), it kind of presents as...happy ending all is fixed now? In MDZS I think it's presented as—more complicated, even though Wangxian do very much get their happy ending.

-Also LWJ is a lot less. uh. Okay, so in CQL he's more Mr Morality, and in MDZS it's much more Wei Ying Right Or Wrong. Also, he doesn't become Chief Cultivator in MDZS! I think that's my least favourite change, because it's like...LWJ hates politics, hates compromise, and never attends the cultivation conferences. At least one of 'this is going to be a major diisaster' and 'LWJ is going to have to go through some significant shifts in his worldview and approach' are going to have to happen, but that's not the vibe CQL gives off at all, and I think it really works against some of the major themes of the text :/

-OH RIGHT I knew I was forgetting something—in MDZS MXY's revenge is focused solely on the Mo; JGY is not part of the curse.

Okay I don't want to go too much on about xiyao or nieyao, because this is already quite long and I don't want you to be waiting forever, but broadly although I certainly think NMJ cares about JGY a great deal it seems to be about his competence and potential; he doesn't really seem to, like, actually like who he is as a person. JGY, meanwhile, is at first very grateful to and then increasingly exasperated by and very much fucking terrified of NMJ, but...well, he doesn't seem to be into him or interested in spending time with him for the sake of it or etc etc.

On the other hand—xiyao. Man, xiyao!!!! They just—they get each other so fast, they're /partners/, they work together so well, they like and they respect each other, they're both like—LXC and MS are on their own tier for JGY, LWJ and JGY are on their own tier for LXC, they're for each other in a way neither is for anyone else, they care a lot about the same things—it's not perfect overlap, obviously, but it's more overlap I think than either has with anyone else, they—invest, they're builders, JGY was planning the watchtowers project from way back and although I have no doubt he was driving it LXC was with him and!!!! ugh!!!!! xiyao are REALLY GREAT, okay.

[silvysartfulness]

I am so sorry you're sick! I hope you recover soon and that you and your family stay safe. And I hope if nothing else Pangaea can remain a refuge for you. So on that note, for the meme: Rannon (37), Isokell (38), Ziradess (32), Lazuli (17), Keela (42). Plus literally anything else, I will read any meta not joking. -Roquen

Thank you! Knock on wood, I am feeling a bit better today, and my roommate’s also doing better. ♥ I really hope that it has actually been Covid-19 we’ve had, and that the worst part is over. It’d suck to have had a common flu and then be even more at risk for the real thing. I just want to get better asap and then be immune. ;_;

Rannon (37) Is your character more concerned with defending their honor, or protecting their status

I guess that depends on what you read into the concepts. Believing himself to be the last of his line, a lot of his action were a combination of both - his status as king was important not because of the power it gave him, but as the legacy he had been given to protect. (He does have a bit of a hard time letting go of his regal status, though. But for all that he can be very assertive and on occasion forget he isn’t in charge of making decisions anymore, he does genuinely defer to Rion as his king, and supports him without question.)

But his sense of honour is extremely important to him, and living on in disgrace, perceived as a coward for still being alive, is definitely one of the most painful aspects of his pardoned existence after the war. In many ways his punishment at the hands of the Karakali, and the trials of Ku'Ombos dented that already rather tarnished self-image, and the final blow was learning the truth of his affair with Aurora/Isokell.

But in a way, he came out the other side a more free and relaxed person, concerned more with human matters than abstract honour and reputation.

Isokell (38) Is your character more likely to remove a problem/threat, or remove themselves from a problem/threat?

Both, depending on the situation. Her greatest problem growing up was frankly all the limits placed upon her by her over-protective parents, and a lot of time was spent thinking up increasingly creative ways to circumvent that. She couldn’t challenge them outright, so she became very good at subterfuge, collecting knowledge and strategy to use to get her way.

Much of the end goal is to remove herself from the stifling situation, though, so I suppose the latter. First with Ziradess’ help, then disguised as “Aurora”, and finally when she fled to Sirn with her secret child. After that, she refused to play on anyone else’s terms anymore, and made people back down through sheer force of will rather than manipulation and secrecy.

Ziradess (32) Describe a scenario in which your character feels most uncomfortable.

Sitting still. Sitting still, in uncomfortable clothes, behaving like a good girl/woman/princess, paying attention to boring things said by boring people because it is apparently of political import.

It’s not that she doesn’t have the intellect for politics, but the parts where you have to sit still for endless hours and argue back and forth over petty things to keep petty people satisfied is the most boring thing in the world. And she hates being bored.

Lazuli (17) What was your character’s favorite toy as a child?

I have absolutely no idea, to be honest! I mean, I sketched a cute picture of him with a teddybear and a knife many, many years ago, but that was mostly a joke.

I know the sketchy basics of his childhood and youth, but the details are very hazy. It mostly wasn’t a bad childhood as such - albeit strictly structured with some discipline and expectations of performance - so supposedly he had some personal possessions he liked, like toys. I’d love to say something sentimental like a gift from his mom, and maybe it was, but it’s also as likely that he would favour the most glamourous thing he owned, no matter its background. I clearly need to delve deeper into Machra-la’s recent past at some point…

Keela (42) Has your character ever had a parental figure who was not related to them?

Ahaha. If you want to be really cruel, it’s hard not to say Rannon. When she was little, she often did get to come along with her father to court, since he spent so much time at Rannon’s side, and for all that Rannon was somewhat reserved (ie not really having a clue how to deal with little kids), they did have a kind of older/younger sibling or parent/child relationship. There are certain sword moves she still uses that she assumes her father taught her, but it was actually Rannon (who in turned learned them from Shayari).

Clearly that all fell apart when her father died, and the betrayal cut all the deeper because the killer was a man she had trusted.That aside, I think Kamiyeh is definitely a parental figure of sorts, aside from her highest commanding officer. And there’s Mikala, another Karakali shanti I don’t know much about, but that I think was also one of Keela’s mentors after her father died.

Plus literally anything else, I will read any meta not joking. -Roquen

Thank you so, so much!! ♥♥♥

Honestly, trying to get back into Pangaea is a priceless refuge, and questions like these, and encouragement to just ramble, it means so much! I’m really hoping to have more spoons once I feel better, and maybe even draw (or write! D:) some again. But until then, these Pangaea asks are life-savers. Thank you so much.

I’m always more than happy to ramble meta on any subject, whether it’s follow-ups to any of these answered asks, or just whatever plot point my mind has latched onto for the day!

(Lately it’s been the encounter I think Rion had with a young Arani girl during his escape through the Sirn desert, as well as a never-to-be-au with Rannon and his servants, that nonetheless amuses me. Remains to see what Brain will serve up tomorrow…)

[fincalinde]

you’ve mentioned a few times in your meta that you view nmj as being hypocritical, and i’m inclined to agree with you! would you share some specific quotes from the text that you feel especially support this reading of his character? 👀

It is one of my favourite words to apply to him, isn’t it! I think that’s because a) it’s true, and b) NMJ’s reputation for righteousness (and his belief in his own righteousness) grant an in-universe illusion of consistency that often bleeds through to external readings of him. So I press the point, because it’s fundamental to his character and I usually see it elided or reduced to all-bark-and-no-bite-grumpy-bear-with-a-heart-of-gold fanon NMJ.

And oh yes, there’s an absolute wealth of quotes supporting this. As always, I use the EXR fan translation because I’m old school.

Christ, this got long. Click for more.

It’s all relative, man

First we need to establish what NMJ’s principles supposedly are.

[Nie Huaisang’s] brother, Nie Mingjue, was extremely resolute when carrying out orders, quite renowned in the cultivation world. […] Nie Mingjue had always taught his younger brother with extreme harshness, particularly caring for his studies. (Chapter 13)

[…] he took over the Nie Sect before he even reached twenty, doing everything in a direct, forceful fashion. (Chapter 21)

When he lived, Nie Mingjue was often exasperated by the fact that his brother didn’t meet expectations, so he disciplined him strictly. (Chapter 21)

In spite of Nie Mingjue being a junior to Jin Guangshan, he conducted himself in a strict manner and refused to tolerate Xue Yang no matter what. (Chapter 30)

Without any hesitation, Nie Mingjue scolded, “Drinking the water he brought you while speaking such spiteful words! Did you join my forces not to kill the Wen-dogs but to make idle talk?!” (Chapter 48)

“A proper man should carry himself with proud righteousness. There’s no need to care for the talk of those idlers.” (Chapter 48)

As we can see, NMJ is all about righteousness, but we don’t get too many details confirming what that righteousness entails. We’re expected to make assumptions based on context: that his values are in line with the ideal values of his society, and that he’s living his life according to those principles (and enforcing said principles on others).

This is worth keeping in mind. We know NMJ is ‘righteous’. We know, in a general sense, what societal standards for morality are in this setting and we see the tension between society’s theoretical standards, its actual standards, and the moral frameworks of characters such as WWX and LXC. And there’s tension between those standards and NMJ’s moral framework, too. But though WWX attempts (and fails) to opt out and LXC attempts (and fails) to find a better way through open conversation and consideration of context, their failures are not due to hypocrisy but instead larger forces at play. In other words, they go up against society and society wins.

NMJ has a problem with society too, but for him the problem is not with its rules and assumptions—it’s with the individuals who make it up. He has no problem with the system. To NMJ, the system is a good thing. If only the people in it would rigidly conform to the rules, everything would be fine. And an outlook like that can only ever lead to hypocrisy, not just because human beings and their actions don’t fit into rigid categories, but because by not attempting to navigate the system (LXC, JGY, JC) or even attempting to opt out (WWX, LWJ, XY), NMJ positions himself above society, as a moral arbiter.

This is why he feels entitled to upbraid JGS, who is a generation above him. It’s why he feels entitled to harass and attempt to murder JGY for not being loyal to NMJ over and above his filial duty to his father. These actions are after he’s reached the point of no return with the sabre spirit, yes, but they didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s just the nadir of a path he’s been on presumably his entire life.

All the information is on the task

NMJ is very good at bending his supposedly rigid principles when it’s convenient for him, while not offering any grace or understanding to others who do the same. And ‘others’, let’s be real, usually equates to JGY. The horror vortex of NMJ’s obsession with controlling JGY really cannot be escaped.

Let’s start with the biggie. JGY is naturally the one who calls NMJ out, because he’s the only one who can see the emperor has no clothes, and by clothes I mean leg to stand on.

“But, Brother, I have always wanted to ask you something—the lives under your hands are in any regard more than those under mine, so why is it that I only killed a few cultivators out of desperation and you keep on bringing it up, even until now?” (Chapter 48)

“Are you saying that all of the people you killed deserved their deaths? […] Then, may I ask, just how do you decide if someone deserves death? Are your standards absolutely correct? If I kill one but save hundreds, would the good outweigh the bad, or would I still deserve death? To do great things, sacrifices must happen.” (Chapter 48)

Chifeng-zun, my man, he has nailed you. The point is not to start drawing equivalences in quite the way JGY is doing—I would certainly argue that if you’re killing undeserving people for the greater good you’d better have one hell of a greater good to be aiming for, even in the crapsack world of MDZS. JGY’s argument is partly a numbers game, but I want to set that aside, because it’s a distraction from his core point, to which numbers are irrelevant: can NMJ truly justify every single murder he has ever committed? Because if he can’t, he’s condemned by his own supposed standards. Note JGY’s use of the word ‘absolute’. NMJ is a moral absolutist! Is he absolutely sure? And if he is sure, does it matter that he’s sure? Why is his certainty more important than anyone else’s?

NMJ never once grapples with these questions. If he did, he might be able to pull the teeth of his own hypocrisy by acknowledging it and engaging with it. But of course he’s not capable of that, certainly not by the time of this scene.

And speaking of NMJ’s hypocrisy re: who does and doesn’t deserve to die…

“Very well! I’ll kill myself after I kill you!” (Chapter 49)

But Roquen, you cry! NMJ says such an utterly mad thing because he’s battered and beaten and not thinking clearly, not to mention past the point of no return with the sabre spirit as he’s been cultivating with resentful energy intensely throughout the war! That’s why he walks it back after LXC intervenes!

To which I say: it is almost as though context matters!

And yes, I’m aware of the context. I’m aware that just before this bit of dialogue the narrative claims JGY pointing out ‘if I hadn’t killed them you’d be dead’ is a subtle way of saying ‘you can’t kill me because you owe me your life’ as though that’s purely manipulative rather than being, you know, true. ‘Even if you refuse to accept I acted for the best, please don’t kill me and I’m going to subtly remind you that you owe me to maximise my chances of getting you to not kill me (after I just risked my life to save yours when it would have been 100x better for me personally if you died)’ is hardly an outrageous position.

It’s interesting, though, isn’t it, that NMJ never again mentions taking his own life as a matter of principle, despite the fact that he subsequently attempts to murder JGY again for the apparently unforgivable crime of … not being able to overrule his abusive father about XY, and then having the temerity to complain to LXC about NMJ’s attempt to murder him.

Obviously the Jin are a huge threat after the war, but these are all pretty feeble reasons for piling on JGY. Sure, maybe JGY would also have tried to protect XY if JGS weren’t around, but the fact is that JGS is around and he’s calling the shots. Besides, once JGS is out of the picture JGY has no issue disposing of XY (with Dr Evil levels of ineptness, apparently), so that’s a fairly decent indicator he’s not ride or die. As for the fact that JGY is making nice to NMJ’s face but complaining behind his back, well. Regardless of any genuine desire to vent to his only friend, I have no doubt he was indeed trying to drive a wedge between NMJ and LXC as a strategic move. But is it wrong of him to do so, considering NMJ is a genuine and present threat to his life and LXC is just not getting it? And does any of the above, including his struggle to maintain his position and all the other work he does for his father mean he deserves death—immediate, extrajudicial and violent death?

Let me put it this way. NMJ is making JGY responsible for his father’s actions and his father’s orders—the question of whether JGY is on board with his father’s instructions is academic, because he has no choice in the matter. JGY cannot opt out of his situation. The only opt out is death, and that is not a meaningful choice because no one else is getting vilified for having the audacity to fight for their place in their world rather than lie down and die. And even if JGY really were a cackling supervillain 100% on board with his father’s diabolical plans, NMJ’s focus on him to the exclusion of JGS is driven by emotion and not by a rational evaluation of the morality and logistics of the situation.

And when he’s insisting that JGY deserves death (and trying to mete it out to him) NMJ never again considers for a moment whether, if JGY really deserves to die, then maybe he does too.

As a third example, to make it a hat trick, we have this:

However, Jin Guangyao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin Guangyao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie Huaisang. (Chapter 49)

“Brother, it really was my father’s orders. I couldn’t refuse. Now. if you want me to take care of Xue Yang, what would I say to him?” (Chapter 49)

NMJ is perfectly aware that according to the rules of their society and the moral framework he himself subscribes to, JGY’s highest authority is his father. But NMJ can’t accept that. He thinks he should be the ultimate authority over JGY, and though he couches it in moral terms about wanting JGY to follow the correct path, what he really means is what he himself considers to be the correct path. As always, he doesn’t listen to JGY’s perfectly valid points about how it’s not possible for him to do the ‘right’ thing as he just doesn’t have that kind of authority and will only end up making his own life worse. I don’t have a quote demonstrating this, but considering everything we know about NMJ, I think we can infer he would not take kindly to JGY ordering NHS to do something futile and self-destructive in the name of the correct path, purely on the grounds that JGY is now his elder brother.

I’ll acknowledge again that JGY is absolutely an accomplice in his father’s schemes, and the originator of a fair few of them since he’s politically gifted. But it’s just not possible to untangle JGY’s complicity from his need (and his right!) to survive. NMJ is correct to be concerned about JGY as a risk, because he’s a huge asset to JGS. But once again, making JGY a target is not the moral or even the sensible thing to do. We know JGY enjoys aspects of what his father asks him to do. We also know that once his father is out of the picture he gets rid of XY, purges the Jin of corruption and pushes through the watchtower project. When he has agency as a clan leader he doesn’t follow his father’s political agenda to the letter, to say the least! So there is certainly a large dollop of truth in his claims that he has no choice and he’s unhappy and vulnerable.

And then a bonus, something not linked to JGY to demonstrate that NMJ’s hypocrisy extends beyond his personal vendetta.

Nie Mingjue spoke coldly. “If she responded with only silence and not opposition when the Wen Sect was causing mayhem, it’s the same as indifference. She shouldn’t have been so disillusioned as to hope that she could be treated with respect when the Wen Sect was doing evil and be unwilling to suffer the consequences and pay the price when the Wen Sect was wiped out.” (Chapter 73)

Charming. Funny how NMJ says this after spending the war fighting on the same side as the guy who invented demonic cultivation and controls an army of desecrated corpses, violating every possible social and cultural principle they have. But the Sunshot Campaign would have failed without WWX’s contributions, so I suppose NMJ thought that compromise was acceptable. It’s all right for him to stay silent and not oppose WWX, since WWX has been useful to his own agenda. What’s not acceptable is staying silent when the consequence is your own violent death and literally no good whatsoever being achieved thereby.

Aside from being a hypocrite, NMJ is also pathologically incapable of self-reflection.

Finish him!

At the end of the day, NMJ’s principles are inherently contradictory because he’s living in morally relative world where the narrative expects us to take context into account and root for a protagonist who brutally tortures his enemies to death and a romantic lead who find+replaces his ethical framework with ‘Wei Ying’.

It is simply not possible for NMJ to be both righteous and rigid, so when he chooses to be rigid he foregoes being righteous. Even in his moments of flexibility, he continues to apply harsh standards to others that he refuses to apply to himself. That’s what makes him a hypocrite. He isn’t a bastion of absolute morality in a sea of corruption. He’s in denial about the nuanced reality he’s living in, and placing himself on high as a moral authority with no actual mandate. Hypocrisy inevitably results, and the consequences are hugely damaging to everyone around him.

[fincalinde]

I see you have done some really thoughtful metas. What're your thoughts on Nie Mingjue? IMO he's a lot more complicated than he's usually assumed to be...

One of my classic absurdly late ask responses! Glad you enjoy the meta.

I think NMJ occupies a fascinating place in the narrative, because his ultimate fate is inevitable despite the fact that he theoretically has more agency than most (all?) of the rest of the main cast.

For a start he becomes clan leader at a young age, and while that comes with its pressures it's undeniably an influential position. He's the leading general of the Sunshot Campaign. Then, after the Sunshot Campaign, the Nie and the Jin are by some margin the most powerful clans. So, in a political sense NMJ has immense power. In theory he has the ability to make far better choices. He could stop persecuting JGY, who literally has no choice but to follow his father's orders, and he could choose to focus his ire where it belongs: on JGS. And he could also choose to counter JGS in ways that don't push the jianghu back to the brink of another devastating war.

Except he can't make those choices. And I want to make a strong distinction here: he is not like other characters such as JGY or LXC or JC, whose choices are limited by their clear understanding of their own limitations and the political landscape (including but not limited to the fact that a post-Sunshot descent into war between the Nie and the Jin would be catastrophic). No. NMJ's choices are limited because by the end of the Sunshot Campaign his mental capacity is irreversibly compromised.

Not only is NMJ terminally ill, but we're given clear examples of contrast between NMJ early in Sunshot and NMJ late- and post-Sunshot. Pre-Sunshot NMJ understands the Wen have political and cultivation power that utterly outclasses him and his clan, so he stands by and tolerates their existence. He knows it would be suicide to go up against them, and it's only when the Wen cross a line and all the clans unite that he's able to actually do anything about the fact that WRH murdered his father.

Contrast that to NMJ by the end of Sunshot, so irrationally obsessed with JGY that he's willing to jeopardise the hard-won (and fragile) stability of the jianghu by trying to kill him. Reminder: when NMJ kicks JGY down the stairs, he starts to follow him down with the express intent of killing him. As in, he fully intends to murder the legitimate son of his main political rival and an immensely powerful clan leader on the steps of his own home. That is ludicrous. Pre-Sunshot NMJ wouldn't have done something like that for his own beloved father, let alone for a grudge.

All of NMJ's flaws are obvious from the earliest point of his timeline: he's proud, he's inflexible, he's righteous but he's hypocritical. But early on we see examples of NMJ bending a little, of recognising nuance and showing, in his own inelegant way, his compassionate side. By the end, that's gone. The fan-burning incident alone (the fantrum!) demonstrates it. That's the way he treats his beloved didi, never mind how he treats his san-di.

Of course the narrative claims JGY can always talk NMJ round, but it's simply not true. In the end, the only way JGY can preserve himself is by making NMJ a promise he can't keep (to deliver XY's head) in order to buy himself enough time for NMJ to die and no longer be an immediate mortal threat. If JGY had not accelerated NMJ's decline, NMJ would have killed him and plunged the jianghu into another needless conflict.

I've spilled ink on the staircase scene already so I'm holding back on digging into this in more detail, but the fact is any discussion of NMJ's downfall is inextricably tangled up with JGY. The focal point of NMJ's descent is his obsession with JGY in particular, and it's important to remember what's relevant is not so much what JGY has or hasn't done but how NMJ treats him.

I do think one of the best ways to put it in context is to compare the way NMJ reacts to WRH to the way he reacts to JGY. WRH literally kills NMJ's father but NMJ has a cool enough head to know he has to bide his time. JGY on the other hand absolutely does betray NMJ's trust, in a situation where, again, if he does as NMJ wants (turns himself in) he's going to end up dead. And from that moment on, NMJ has no intention of giving JGY the benefit of the doubt. Yes, after LXC intervenes (remember, JGY would be dead without that intervention!) NMJ backs off and ends up agreeing to the sworn brotherhood, but he enters into the brotherhood in entirely the wrong spirit, seeing it as a way to monitor and subjugate JGY, who is already answerable to his father over and above any obligations to an elder brother.

Would NMJ at fifteen years old have listened to LXC and JGY's explanations in Qishan or later on the stairs at Golden Carp Tower? Possibly. But we don't have any examples of a time when he truly listened to JGY, and he was always going to end up this way regardless, taken out by a qi deviation and turned into the stuff of nightmares. JGY accelerated an existing process to save his own skin, but he didn't invent it out of whole cloth. So the tragedy of NMJ is not what JGY did to him. It goes back further than that, to when his ancestors first started cultivating the resentful energy of beasts.

Even then, contrasting NMJ to another character is illuminating. The text tells us NHS is in a bind: if he cultivates with his sabre, he's dooming himself. But if he doesn't cultivate with his sabre, he's pissing off his ancestors. The instinct then is perhaps to think—poor NMJ! He's in the same bind!

But NMJ never has a moment's doubt about sabre cultivation. NMJ knows the price and he pays it without question. NMJ doesn't agonise about how to balance his duty to his clan and his ancestors against his desire to not go violently insane. He accepts it as a fact of life and never thinks to question it or push back against it. He marches down the path that extirpates all his good qualities and leads straight to his worst self, and never so much as glances around in the hope of sighting a different way.

Again we're getting to that tension I find most interesting about NMJ: agency rubbing shoulders with inevitability. NHS finds a way to lead his clan and Word of God become Xiandu without cultivating with his sabre. Does that mean NMJ is responsible for his choices and he can't be absolved of his actions by blaming his inheritance? I don't necessarily have an answer for that, but I hugely enjoy exploring the question.

[fincalinde]

It always baffles me when I see WWX written as promiscuous. This is the guy who canonically makes it into his twenties (and then technically into his thirties) with his only sexual experience being one (1) kiss of dubious consent with LWJ when he's blindfolded at the Phoenix Mountain hunt.

WWX is an incorrigible flirt, but he takes even the simple act of kissing seriously. He's supposedly 'saved' his first kiss for twenty years, and when it's taken from him he responds by coping in his usual way: externalising any potential distress or uncertainty by being superlatively obnoxious.

A black outfit and a devil-may-care attitude do not necessarily equate to promiscuity, and this all feeds into the larger point: the importance of looking past the way WWX tries to present himself and focusing on what his actions actually tell us about him. Rather than being a promiscuous contrast to LWJ's prudishness, WWX's attitude to sex and relationships is actually a big part of why he and LWJ are compatible.

[fincalinde]

for your ask meme: wei wuxian?? 👀

Since I've got some new followers over the past couple of days (who knew what branching out from Xiyao would do for my reputation!), I'll once again add the disclaimer that I write MDZS meta and not CQL meta. I'm aware that in CQL, WWX is characterised somewhat differently. I have thoughts on that too, but I'm not immersed enough in CQL to commit to sharing them publicly.

Since WWX is the main character and appears in almost every scene, I won't attempt to write a thesis statement on him. (You cannot afford my hourly rate.) Instead I've decided to focus on an aspect of WWX that I feel is often overlooked or sanitised. That is to say:

WWX is extremely annoying.

He's not just irritating, or overly exuberant, or a touch too arrogant. He is infuriatingly obnoxious.

Obviously WWX is also brave and often well-meaning. He loves deeply, even if he consistently lets down the people who care about him. He's strong-willed enough to abide by his own sense of morality in the face of overwhelming disapproval and danger, and arrogant enough to make unilateral decisions when it would be better for all concerned if he took a step back. He's bad at big picture thinking and rarely considers the full ramifications of his actions, but he's also incredibly adept at getting out of scrapes, and he has an admirable if also somewhat depressing ability to shrug off pain and suffering that is the result of his difficult days on the streets and his mistreatment by YZY. 

And he's obnoxious.

I do think it often gets forgotten, because Wangxian is intended to be a love story and it's much more tempting to write sweeping romance and charming banter than hark back to all the canonical moments in which characters, including LWJ, genuinely want to throttle him to death.

He never shuts up! He's constantly laughing far too loudly and for too long. He's the sort of person who thinks it's funny to pull the rug out from under someone in a conversation so they end up discomfited and embarrassed. I fully understand that a large part of his hectoring LWJ is a precursor to his later romantic interest and is in line with his flirtation style, but the fact remains that he goads LWJ beyond the point of endurance on multiple occasions. LWJ just happens to be a weird dude who's really into it.

A good example of what I mean is when Wangxian encounter each other at Phoenix Mountain. WWX asks LWJ if he's ever kissed someone, then proceeds to speculate that LWJ has never been kissed and will never be kissed. LWJ doesn't seem to mind this at first, and only becomes angered when WWX lies about having been kissed before himself (oh LWJ), but it's important to remember that WWX has no idea that LWJ has any interest in him whatsoever. From WWX's perspective, he's just having fun belittling someone else over a topic that for most young people is a sensitive one. I don't want to oversell this moment and claim that it's bullying, actually, but I do want to use it to highlight that WWX is not always a considerate person and this type of behaviour is teeth-achingly thoughtless and cringeworthy.

I could go on, but if you pick any given scene including WWX you're likely to see dialogue in which he's being actively annoying to other characters, intentionally or otherwise. This isn't an attack on him, just an observation that in order to write him in a canon consistent manner he should be not just witty and chatty in a way where other characters simply roll their eyes and keep going. He should genuinely actually aggravate them and it should have consequences within the scene. Characters such as JC and WQ care about WWX but also find him infuriating, and that's with good reason—never mind the juniors, whom WWX takes pleasure in messing with. There are many characters who feel great respect and affection for WWX, and every single one of them also regularly feels deep frustration and irritation towards him too. There should be some meat on the bones of any back and forth between them.

[fincalinde]

What do you think about JYL's relationship with WWX?

This is an interesting one, because the relationship between JYL and WWX is really a thing of two halves: the depth and steadfastness of their love for each other is touching, but the very strength of their relationship has devastating consequences. It's also a great example of each character's core flaw: WWX's arrogance and JYL's partiality for him.

I really do like the fact that JYL and WWX love each other like blood siblings, even to the point of JYL specifically asserting that she sees him as a brother when she defends him at the Phoenix Mountain hunt. JYL is mild-natured, but also a woman of great inner strength despite her parents' best efforts to crush, berate and/or neglect it out of her. And she certainly needs and deserves supportive brothers like JC and WWX, who will both defend and advocate for her.

The trouble is that WWX is really bad at defending her and repeatedly makes things worse when JC on his own would have handled the situation with more grace. JC is clearly reconciling himself to JYL marrying JZX and adjusting his understanding of JZX's character post-Sunshot, and he and WWX even have a discussion in which WWX refuses to listen to him about JZX's self-improvement and the likelihood of a renewed engagement. JC is obviously not a perfect brother, and it's not as though WWX's continued hatred for JZX is based on nothing, but as clan leader JC has the good sense and leadership skills to more effectively navigate such a delicate situation.

As part and parcel of WWX's unintentional but nevertheless very real sabotaging of JC and the Jiang, he talks over JC and acts as though he has greater authority than he actually possesses. JYL and her relationship with JZX is a huge part of that. Yes, things are not going well between JZX and JYL at the Phoenix Mountain hunt, but WWX's intervention only escalates the issue and puts JYL in an even more awkward and humiliating position. It's a testament to her love for WWX and her quiet strength that she's able to gracefully and effectively defend both WWX and the Jiang when WWX's attempts to defend her from JZX have further exposed the Jiang to a loss of reputation.

It's important to remember that WWX himself cringes in retrospect when seeing his arrogant and cocksure behaviour in other scenes through Empathy, so this read isn't coming out of nowhere; it's made explicit in the text. WWX is in many ways the author of his own downfall, and of course poor JYL is quite literally caught in the crossfire. There's multiple references to her face lighting up whenever she sees her brothers, and in a certain sense her love for them gifts her vitality, so it's thematically appropriate and extraordinarily effective that she gives her life for WWX. And thematically appropriate, too, that in her final moments she is completely focused on WWX despite JC also being present.

I've skirted the topic of JC so far in only discussing him in relation to the JZX-JYL relationship, but I do need to address him more directly because it's impossible to talk about WWX and JYL without bringing him in. Poor, poor JC. It's indisputable that JYL loves him, and it's just as indisputable that she loves WWX more than she loves him. In theory, the love is equal. In practice, JYL consistently prioritises WWX and his needs over JC. JC truly does come second in everything, and the image of him holding a seriously injured JYL as she ignores him and focuses all her attention on WWX is absolutely shattering.

And the awful thing is that JC is a better brother to JYL than WWX. JC understands that she is not simply a sister but a woman who has her own wants and needs that diverge from her brothers' hopes for her. JC might not like it, but he respects it. WWX, on the other hand ... Qiongqi Path. His inability to fully respect JYL's choice or update his opinion of JZX results in his literally murdering JZX using WN as the weapon. And yes, WWX is not mentally or physically in great shape at the time, but he's also had numerous and repeated warnings from various characters about the inevitable consequences of the path he's chosen. There are mitigating factors, but WWX ultimately knows himself to be responsible and the text agrees with him.

And JYL still can't hate him. She can't tell him it's all right or that she forgives him, but she doesn't stop loving him either. And this is exactly why their relationship, while profound and touching, is ultimately a damaging one. It never develops beyond its original well-meaning but immature dynamic, and this is the consequence. WWX still acts like a small child with JYL, and also like he has the right to intervene in her life. Meanwhile she still mothers him and overlooks his transgressions, even though she's probably the one person he might actually listen to. They're both locked in old patterns that were established to cope with the challenges of their shared childhood, and neither of them adjust the relationship to account for the changes in their roles and circumstances—until it's far too late.

[fincalinde]

asking you about... wen qing

I will admit that WQ is actually one of the characters I've thought about the least, because she has minimal impact on the characters I'm personally invested in. That said, of course I've done some close reading because I am a super mega nerd and I do have thoughts.

I actually feel bad for WQ as a character, not just within the narrative but in the context of how she appears to be treated by fandom. The yassification of female characters is so depressing to me and she's probably one of the characters who suffers most under fandom's misguided and yet utterly relentless commitment to its own brand of frustratingly regressive progressivism.

Normally all my meta is grounded firmly in MDZS, but I do have to mention CQL here to underline my point. There's an abortive romance arc introduced between WQ and JC in CQL, and while (reasons behind that particular decision aside) I have no issue with that change in theory, it's directly responsible for one of the two main fandom-sanctioned WQ takes.

Take One (thanks CQL)

WQ is a badass awesome lady yeah! She pegs JC all night long because penetration is empowering!

Take Two (actually I'd blame CQL for this too except fandom loves doing this to all female characters regardless)

WQ is a badass awesome lesbian yeah! She's in a lesbian relationship with [insert female character du jour here] because she is a lesbian and that's empowering!

In case you can't tell, I have minimal patience for this sort of thing. Everyone has the right to write and enjoy whatever they like, but in my own space I have the right to highlight fandom trends and interpretations that I feel are unsupported. A lot of my frustration stems from the very fact that they are trends. Individual fics and meta posts are rarely the issue. The issue is that it's so difficult to find anything that is actually textually-grounded.

Anyway, the WQ and JC relationship in CQL is actually quite a mature depiction of two people who have an interest in each other and ultimately recognise that a relationship would not only be impractical, but that neither of them are the type to forgo their other loyalties and responsibilities for each other. Quite a neat parallel to Xiyao and contrast to Wangxian, actually. Overlooking these challenges in favour of centring the question of who is penetrating whom doesn't do either character justice. Pegging is all good fun, but its prevalence with this particular pairing is something that raises my eyebrow. I am deeply wary of analysis that looks at the power dynamic of a relationship, concludes that the woman has the stronger personality, and equates that with the man being the receiving partner.

As for WQ being a lesbian, from what I can tell this originates in theory from WQ being alone with JYL one time in CQL (gasp) coupled with fandom's insatiable need to make every single female character a lesbian regardless of whether the text supports it or not. And I'd be truly interested in a resistant read or a speculative fic that is canon consistent and depicts WQ as a lesbian; in MDZS especially we know nothing about her orientation. And yet what I see  is not thoughtful explorations of gaps in the text. It's muddy hobnail boots all over the text and the result is rarely nuanced or convincing. WQ and her partner du jour are reduced to a superficial collection of traits only tenuously connected to the source at best, and more often than not they are also supporting characters, existing within a fic merely to cheerlead the m/m couple and nominally tick a box on the representation checklist.

This post is quite harsh so I'll reiterate: I'm not speaking about any particular person or fic here. I'm speaking about trends. The problem is one of quantity as much as it is quality. If I could find a reasonable percentage of content with a solid grounding in the source material I would be very happy, but the ratio is just absolutely horrendous.

Getting back to what is actually present in the text, WQ is an incredibly resilient character. She's trying to balance her loyalty to her clan with her own ethics and the wellbeing of her brother and she does as well as anyone can in the circumstances. I like that she isn't necessarily the Actually Good Wen and that she isn't secretly working against WRH. She doesn't really like what he's doing but she understands the reality of her position and she's trying to work with that. I always respect that in a character because I find it much less interesting when someone wearing protagonist armour comes smashing through the plot (WWX, we'll get to you later).

[fincalinde]

I’ve been rereading it’s worth it every time and that + the post abt mxy reminded me of how much I like your take on what happened! the way that… it’s not malicious on mxy’s part and at first he doesn’t even seem to realize how obvious he’s being, but he does eventually escalate to actual, unwelcome, come-ons towards jgy (the first scene when he checks on him and gives him heart eyes vs the “I’m yours” scene, is what I’m thinking here)

Thanks so much! I put a lot of thought into making MXY canon consistent, and I really wanted to capture how desperately vulnerable he is without minimising his behaviour. And off the back of this I've written an entire post about JGY and MXY exploring how JGY chooses to handle the MXY issue in canon, so here goes.

The relationship between JGY and MXY is a complicated one. JGY is the victim of MXY's inappropriate behaviour, but this isn't what could be considered a traditional perpetrator-victim dynamic. MXY is younger, less experienced, less powerful, and has at least one unspecified mental health condition. Even before JGY becomes clan leader, he has authority over MXY even if simply by virtue of being MXY's elder and quasi-mentor—and once JGY actually is clan leader, he literally has the power of life and death over MXY.

Before JGY is clan leader, he's in a much more awkward position because any harassment he receives from MXY either isn't going to be believed or no one is going to do anything about it. JGS isn't going to step in to protect JGY from the brother who is at Golden Carp Tower literally to reinforce how easily he can be replaced. It makes sense if JGY is, if not necessarily fending off open advances at this stage, then at least navigating treacherous waters. MXY is in awe of him and can't physically overpower him, but JGY is still forced to live with him.

Once JGY is clan leader, he has far more options. It's telling that he doesn't quietly dispose of MXY—which he could easily do. I'm actually going to digress and talk about JGY's many other illegitimate siblings for a moment, because I never really see them brought up and we know they are plentiful and many of them have perfectly respectable mothers. Like MXY, the very fact of their existence is absolutely a threat.

We get one extremely unreliable indication in the text that JGY might have killed off some of his other half-siblings. During the scene in which everyone turns on him and starts shouting baseless slander, one of the claims thrown out is that before he had his father killed he spent a couple of years quietly eliminating his various illegitimate and unacknowledged half-siblings. I don't for a moment think this is true or that we are intended to think this is true, considering other claims include JGY, a prostitute's son, only rising to power by sucking up to NMJ and LXC; and JGY deliberately orchestrating XXC's death for having the temerity to politely reject an invitation to join the Jin at a time when it was led by JGS.

So obviously this is nonsense. But, OK, it's not as though it's completely implausible that JGY might have wanted his half-siblings out of the way. He didn't intend for JZX to die but he certainly didn't hesitate to put him in danger. Let's take the least generous read possible and imagine that this demonstrably false gossip has a seed of truth: once he comes to power, JGY begins to quietly eliminate his other half-siblings to ensure no rivals emerge. We know JGY is ruthless. It makes sense that he'd be taking precautions.

But we also know JGY is not solely ruthless, and that he is also generous and loyal and repays his debts in his own fashion. Maybe he did bump off half-siblings out of fear that his enemies could rally behind one of them. But he doesn't have QS quietly killed, even though it would solve his incest problem, because he is so profoundly grateful that she treats him with respect and love and makes nothing of his background. And, more interestingly, he doesn't have MXY quietly killed either.

JGY is an efficient and capable man, but he has a habit of putting people who know just a little too much in out of the way places where he doesn't necessarily have to think about them but they remain as loose ends. I'm not necessarily saying my read is that JGY was definitely systematically killing off his siblings over the years, but I do think it's something he is in theory capable of (I support him), so the fact that MXY is kicked out without subsequently having a terrible and terribly convenient accident is notable. It's also consistent with his habit of not following through completely on eliminating risk of exposure (however small) if he feels affection and/or gratitude towards someone. See: NMJ, XY, QS, Sisi, etc.

I think it shows almost supernatural forbearance that MXY is deposited back at Mo Manor. He really could so easily have been killed. He knows about the Jin's experimentations in demonic cultivation, which makes him a liability, and has even seen WWX's notes. If JGY were really as ruthlessly pragmatic as so many in fandom seem to think, MXY would have died in a convenient accident not long after arriving back at Mo Manor. The only explanation is that JGY is genuinely fond of MXY, and in classic JGY fashion this means putting MXY in a miserable situation that's out of sight and out of mind so JGY can continue to flatter himself that he didn't kill him.

[fincalinde]

thoughts on Su Minshan??

I actually recently did a post on SMS, so feel free to stick another token in the slot machine that is my askbox if you want. But I suppose I can build on it a little. There's one thing I brought up in there that probably does deserve more attention, and that is ...

Why, oh why, does fandom assume that SMS is unmarried when it is literally impossible that he would be single and childless? Like, this blows my mind.

Things that are clearly established by canon:

1. The jianghu operates under a clan system rather than a genre-typical pure sect system. Bloodlines are crucially important and the leadership of clans is generally passed from father to son or another close male relative, though women do rarely also obtain positions of power.

2. This system was introduced a couple of centuries earlier by Wen Mao, but is now so embedded that XXC and SL's shared vision of a merit-based sect where bloodlines are irrelevant is considered a distant and idealistic dream.

3. XXC receives numerous invitations to join clans due to his stellar reputation, and turns them all down due to this principle. He could have taken an important role in these clans but would never have been able to inherit or lead. Despite his incredible reputation, during the period of time in which he is travelling the jianghu in his pre-eye gouging days, neither he nor SL take a single disciple. This strongly indicates that even someone of literally impeccable standing couldn't even begin to get an independent merit-based sect off the ground.

... but I am supposed to believe that SMS somehow achieved this? That he left the Lan and founded his own sect with a gang of disgruntled tone deaf pals and that's the end of it? Absolutely not. He founded the Moling Su (the name itself is a big clue) in the traditional manner. He probably did involve some of his own blood relatives from the off to bulk his numbers, but even so, he's clan leader and the first thing a nascent and highly vulnerable new clan needs is heirs. SMS is absolutely married and a father to multiple children. Those children are the literal future of his clan and its very existence depends on them.

Of course his wife and children aren't explicitly mentioned by the narrative, because he's a supporting character whose function in the narrative revolves around his loyalty to JGY and his grudges against [insert list here], and his home life is irrelevant. Su-furen is either at home in Moling holding the fort; or, less likely, she's amongst the cultivators he brings to the Burial Mounds and could even potentially be intending to meet up with JGY and his cohort of loyal disciples during the collective flight to Dongying. It's just a level of detail that isn't relevant, especially to our viewpoint character, WWX, who is notoriously not detail-orientated when it comes to this kind of thing.

[fincalinde]

My thoughts on (same sex marriage in MDZS)

With the blessing of @confusion-and-more, I'm going to outline some of my thoughts on same sex marriages of state in the setting of MDZS.

Firstly, as always, a disclaimer that many people don't care about this sort of thing at all and that's fine. But I personally struggle to enjoy even frothy stuff if I don't at least somewhat buy into the logistics underpinning the basic concept.

Anyway. A marriage of state is a marriage intended to unite two states or other powers for mutual political benefit. There's a little more to it than that, but as a summary I think it's fair enough, especially when we're discussing a fantasy setting.

Underpinning the same sex marriage I've seen in fanfic is the assumption of its political value. Either the clans are forging an alliance by wedding their heirs and/or senior disciples to each other, or the characters themselves are making decisions that have political considerations (or the deliberate disregard of political considerations!) even if their main motive is romantic love.

None of this really works for me. Heredity is the cornerstone of the clan system of MDZS; their bloodlines matter deeply to them. There is no meaningful political advantage to be gained by, say, marrying the second son of the clan leader to the first disciple of another clan when there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that biological children will result. We know that in the setting of MDZS, biology matters. LSZ's biological heritage must be concealed; JGY's biological connection to the Jin (and his mother) is central to his identity and to his treatment by others; WWX to a much lesser extent has 'son of a servant' thrown at him regularly, and speculation that JFM is his biological father has serious ramifications.

In the setting of MDZS, same sex marriage of state cannot possibly occur in a form that resembles marriages of state between opposite sex partners. Though not the sole aim, the core function of a marriage of state is to produce heirs. Yes there are other reasons why it might be politically expedient to marry someone who cannot possibly provide biological children, but that situation would be something like marrying a rich widow to obtain access to her property. And there is no institution specifically catering to the provision of rich widows for avaricious suitors; that's just an exploitable byproduct of a system intended to produce legitimate heirs for the mutual benefit of both families.

In my opinion, in order to write plausible same sex marriages into MDZS, there has to be a compelling justification for why any of the characters believe there is a political benefit. Without the core reason of heirs, it's all too insubstantial to be throwing away one's own high-ranking family members or clan leaders on same sex partners. There certainly wouldn't be the pomp and ceremony of a betrothal for a guaranteed biologically unfruitful marriage.

Personally if I wanted to write same sex marriage in MDZS I'd keep it as something confined to disciples who don't have the family name of the clan. Marrying out a powerful disciple could be a politically advantageous move if presented as a meeting of the minds and a blending of cultivation techniques. I'd imagine it would still be somewhat uncommon and rather than being a positive or prestigious thing would likely be seen as a coded demotion; a way to stymie overambitious senior disciples. If your clan thinks you're getting too powerful and might break away or threaten them somehow, they put you in your place by marrying you off to someone ostensibly respectable but also nonthreatening—and where there's no possibility you can have your own biological heirs.

Something like that seems like it could be built on well enough to integrate more convincingly with the setting. I can definitely imagine YZY wanting to marry WWX off to someone where there's no chance he can ever reproduce or heaven forbid start his own clan that might outshine the Jiang. It's also something JGS might consider doing to JGY as a way to keep him in his place.

But what I just can't ever see as viable is the idea that it could ever be considered politically sound for LXC or LWJ to be betrothed to a same sex partner. LXC does a great job of holding out against marriage in canon considering his clan really needs him to have those heirs, but staying single is wildly different to irrevocably cutting off the possibility of biological heirs. As for LWJ, he does what he wants regardless so of course he'd still marry WWX and go on a road trip, but again it is politically nonsensical to marry the only direct heir of (childless!) LXC off to a same sex partner. I just do not buy it.

[fincalinde]

lwj, for the meme?

Not the Lan bro I was expecting but here goes!

a song that reminds me of them

This doesn't remind me of him because I wouldn't want to ruin it for myself, but I can imagine a sad montage of interregnum LWJ set to I Am Stretched On Your Grave. Anyway, my proper answer is Frostrósir by Eivør. It's in Faroese, which I do not speak, but I pinched something from here:

Each sigh from a lonely soul Every word that was formed without sound Now seems like a frostbitten affair Dressed in the guise of lifeless flowers

what they smell like

We have an answer to this in canon and it's sandalwood, so I don't have much to add.

an otp

I mean, it is the central point of the novel. But even aside from that, LWJ is consistently only ever interested in WWX. I'm not saying he shouldn't be interpreted as gay, but I am saying that even if he is gay it's secondary to his actual sexual identity which is Weiyingsexual. I'm not treading any new ground here.

Personally I don't find Wangxian interesting, but I at least believe they love each other and are compatible in the sense that they are both selfish in slightly different ways that mesh well for their own private universe. Not so great for others in their orbit, but part of that is authorial fiat so I try to be fair about what I hold against them.

I don't think CQL successfully executed the changes it made to Wangxian in having them click and partner up from the beginning, but I do think it was necessary to at least attempt to rebalance the relationship. In MDZS, WWX genuinely does not reciprocate LWJ's feelings in his first life beyond a very deeply buried and not particularly inevitable spark. His first life is really centred on his relationships with JC and JYL and they are the tragic 'romance' (in the traditional sense). LWJ only gets upgraded during the second life. Kind of awkward to do your sweeping romance if it isn't a romance in the 35+ episodes of flashbacks, so I don't blame them for trying. And I do like the Colin Firth vibes WYB brought to his LWJ.

a notp

Aside from not finding the idea of LWJ with anyone else convincing, let me take the opportunity to pettily sideswipe at Chengxian and shoving LWJ in to make it what? Wangchengxian? Is that what it's called? Either way, nooooooo thank you. You can't get much more fraternal than WWX and JC's idiot bickering, and even if they weren't such classic stupid boys together, JC and LWJ loathe one another with the kind of loathing that does not give way to a rendition of I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face. (Incidentally, in the original stage version Eliza walks out on Higgins never to return, and it is awesome.)

favorite platonic/familial relationships

Obviously it's his relationship with LXC (and by extension LQR?). Just absolutely fascinating. Their rapport is very sweet, as is LXC's protectiveness and gentle trolling. LWJ is not a particularly good didi, but LXC both doesn't notice and doesn't mind.

Actually, someone once made a meme for me in relation to this, let me dust it off and drag it out:

More seriously, though he was also raised with harsh discipline, in comparative terms LWJ is the spoilt baby of the family. As is often the result when we encounter morally rigid characters in MDZS, he is also in many respects hypocritical. Clearly I have a lot of negative things to say about him as a brother to LXC, but I'm not interested in demonising him and what's really interesting about it is that by and large this uneven dynamic works for the Twin Jades. Right up until it doesn't.

When LXC really needs LWJ to come through for him, he just doesn't. I'm not even talking about LWJ's behaviour leading up to and during the Temple, which is objectionable in the sense that he refuses to give JGY the benefit of the doubt that LXC extends to WWX. No, I'm talking about the fact that he bods off for literal months after LXC has just been through the worst experience of his life and lost his closest friend and partner. And I don't want to hear it about LXC being the elder and having a responsibility to take care of LWJ. LWJ owes consideration to his big brother and clan leader, even if that consideration might take a different form.

Here's a thought experiment. After WWX's first death, when LWJ has been whipped 33 times by the discipline whip and dragged himself to rescue LSZ and branded himself in drunken grief, can you imagine LXC bodding off for three months without a word to have picnics with JGY? It's inconceivable isn't it.

I didn't intend for this section to become a hit piece on LWJ and he obviously does love his brother, but in terms of actions it is somewhat of a one way street. The fact that LXC has no other expectations doesn't protect LWJ from my croc-hatted judgement face.

a headcanon that is popular in the fandom but that i disagree with

Righteous LWJ. Oh, please. In MDZS, righteousness goes hand in hand with hypocrisy, and though I doubt MXTX the human being intended LWJ to be read as thoroughly selfish, the (translation of) the text she wrote is a depiction of a profoundly selfish man. And that's not a bad thing, because his selfishness coupled with the occasions when he is genuinely altruistic makes him more interesting than if he really were a moralising ice cube with a ribbon tied around it.

the position they sleep in

Official Lan Position, and postcanon I probably don't want to know.

a crossover au i’d love to see them in

I'm going to be lazy and suggest X-Men AU again just because his secondary power would definitely be organic diamond form like Emma Frost. I don't think he'd also be a telepath, but the idea of that is funny because he could read WWX's mind and know for certain that WWX isn't (currently) into him. But as a serious answer, organic diamond form as a secondary power and then primary power the same as Alison Blaire. I see no reason why his mutant name wouldn't be Dazzler too.

my favorite outfit they’ve ever worn

I think he only has like one outfit. I'm sorry, I'm not cool enough to be able to distinguish between different varieties of plain white robes. In CQL I prefer first life LWJ because they put that massive ornament on second life LWJ's head to make him look older and taller but actually they created an unfortunate perspective effect where he just looks even shorter.

[fincalinde]

nie huaisang and/or nie mingjue for the ask meme 🧋

Bold! Very bold. Standard disclaimer that I'm aware not everyone is aiming for canon consistency in their fan content, but I find it disheartening that there is so little content produced where the end result is canon consistent. When I express frustrations it is in relation to trends and not specific fics or individuals.

Nie Huaisang

a song that reminds me of them

I honestly don't have any songs that remind me of him, beyond the very weak connection of the results of the impact he has on other characters. He's not a character with much interiority, so nothing really clicked for me in that regard.

what they smell like

I imagine he smells pretty good since he likes to dress well and wear jewellery and that implies he's relatively fastidious. I am guessing he probably smells like clean human in the early part of his life, and then maybe once he's clan leader he has more scope to have whatever incenses he wants floating through the Unclean Realm so then he might smell of those. And obviously there's various hair oils—he's got his signature look with his rings and his fan so it's possible he has a signature hair oil. But maybe it would be declassé to wear so much hair oil that everyone else can smell it and you'd only be able to tell up close and personal oh my god why have I written this many words about how NHS smells

an otp

There's certainly no one in the cast he makes sense with. My personal feeling is that he's really not the type of person who's ever going to work effectively in any kind of partnership, so I don't see him ever being in a relationship that would be a healthy and successful one. I imagine he does marry postcanon though - now is the time to sire heirs and keep the Nie on top.

a notp

The idea of NHS with JGY is particularly distasteful to me.

favorite platonic/familial relationships

Personally, I think the collective dynamic of the Venerated Triad isn't complete without NHS as the unofficial fourth member. LWJ, as is typical, opts out and doesn't give LXC the courtesy of referring to his sworn brothers with fraternal address (not that LXC minds, ilhsm). NHS however is all in on this bonus brother scheme. Not only does he address LXC and JGY as er-ge and san-ge, but he actually treats them like big brothers. He's pleased to see LXC, he's even more pleased to see JGY (omg presents), and it's quite nice that JGY in particular is trying to make up for NMJ's weaknesses in this area. That's not to say that JGY is correct to not make any demands of NHS at all, but he's certainly attempting to be a moderating influence and it's just all really interesting to me.

Of course once NMJ is dead, there's presumably not much time before his corpse first escapes its tomb and NHS concludes there was foul play. So we can't read too much into the way NHS runs back and forth to JGY and LXC, in the sense that obviously a large part of this is an act. But it's still interesting, and I think a lot of people forget that the narration says NHS is bothering LXC at the Cloud Recesses just as often as he's flinging himself on san-ge for fuss and support. This could become its own very long post, so I'll stop here.

a headcanon that is popular in the fandom but that i disagree with

Obviously there are numerous 'headcanons' I disagree with, but to pick one of the most irritating ones, I really dislike this recurring theme I see of NHS showing his hand either postcanon or in divergences. This is a man who never broke character in all of canon—why on earth is he suddenly monologuing at length about his grievances in front of [insert characters here]? Canonically, all he does is obliquely confirm to WWX that he was behind setting the arm on the Mo family, manipulating MXY, killing the cats and luring the juniors, desecrating MS' body etc. But it's all implied and he does not ever relinquish plausible deniability.

It really makes no sense to me to think that NHS would drop his act postcanon, either in the canon scenario of dead JGY, or in a divergence scenario where JGY survives. As infuriating as it would be for him if JGY escaped, he's going to redouble his efforts rather than sabotage himself by confirming WWX's suspicions to literally anyone. He's held it together thus far even when it looked like his plan might go awry, and there's no reason to think he can't continue to hold it together through any further plans and/or confrontations.

NHS' greatest weapon is his ability to not break character, and we already know he doesn't break character in victory. So, a setback as basic as JGY surviving would just not be enough for him to relinquish his modus operandi. I really think he'd be privately furious and distressed, but would continue to disguise that and simply attempt to regroup. (Although, as I have also said before - in a divergence where JGY knows NHS is his enemy, NHS is toast. JGY outclasses NHS on every level and the only advantage NHS has is JGY's profound belief in his harmlessness. Once that is gone, it's game over.)

the position they sleep in

I've never really thought about this but I bet when he was little he would crawl into NMJ's bed and proceed to keep him awake all night by fidgeting.

a crossover au i’d love to see them in

Maybe one day I'll confirm how he fits in to my ATLA AU and write that. I do know where he is and what he's doing.

my favorite outfit they’ve ever worn

I can't say I've ever paid much attention, but I definitely find the wardrobe of CQL NHS to be disappointingly bland and unmemorable, so maybe just his default official artwork outfit? Seems like it fits the canonical brief of being sharp and fashionable with bonus fan.

—

Nie Mingjue

a song that reminds me of them

Definitely Running Deep by Delara.

Looking deep inside my thoughts And reflected shit I thought I could control But I'm paralysed and terrified And it's killing me but maybe that is fine

what they smell like

Human being + something a little bit metallic.

an otp

He's canonically ace as in no interest in relationships or sex, so none. As a side note I do think it's interesting that he doesn't marry and father children - I assume before the war he thinks he'll have more time, and afterwards he realises time is too short for him to raise and train his own children. But there's just a whisper in there of the classic NMJ 'do as I say not as I do' approach, because it's still a choice he's made that was influenced by his own preferences rather than solely his duty as clan leader.

a notp

I cannot think of any ship I dislike more than Nieyao. If I get into this it will become a dissertation, so we'll just leave it there. Suffice to say:

Physical abuse and mortal terror are not things that interest me when I'm shipping.

I am not in the habit of ignoring canonical character dynamics for my own convenience.

favorite platonic/familial relationships

Perhaps weirdly, I really enjoy NMJ and LXC because of the layers. I really like that the affection between them is genuine but that they just do not get each other and you can see throughout the flashbacks the way their relationship is eroding. And it's not drastic, dramatic erosion like NMJ and JGY, but instead the kind of sad recognisable drifting apart of two people who became friends in their youth because they're from similar backgrounds and have unique and heavy responsibilities—but those similarities are just not enough the older they get, and the more time passes the more apparent it becomes that they have fundamentally different outlooks on life.

I like that NMJ refuses to engage with LXC's basic point about context mattering, yet before he's fully in the grip of the sabre spirit maxing out his worst instincts, he's still capable of being moved by human sympathy when it's LXC making the argument. I like that LXC is the only person NMJ is ever visibly pleased to see. I really believe NMJ cares deeply about LXC, his only actual friend.

And, conversely, I also really like that NMJ is able to see that LXC has a closer bond and rapport with JGY and is frustrated by that. I don't know that I'd go all in on the theory that he's jealous of how close LXC and JGY are as a primary motivation as that's a bit too basic, but I do think that feeling of exclusion is one of the many factors swimming around in the murky depths of the dynamic of their sworn brotherhood.

Finally, I just love the contrast between LXC's relatively clear-eyed view of JGY, where he has a very good understanding of who JGY is and what he's all about even if he's not aware of all the lengths JGY ultimately has to go to, with his absolute obliviousness to who NMJ really is. NMJ is literally trying to stab JGY to death in public and only LXC's intervention prevents murder and yet another inter-clan war, and LXC is still like oh dear, Da-ge really is under a lot of stress. LXC is drifting further and further from NMJ (see the excellent meta from @xiyao-feels for a breakdown of this). Yet he still thinks of NMJ as being at heart the youthful clan leader he first befriended, rather than the current worst self incarnation whose negative qualities have been turned up to the max and who is a lethal ticking time bomb, a danger to everyone around him.

a headcanon that is popular in the fandom but that i disagree with

As always, do not get me started. I am absolutely baffled as to where cuddly wuddly giant teddy gym bunny biker Etsy crafter in touch with his fee-fees all bark and no bite NMJ comes from, because he certainly does not feature in canon. I'll stand by this for both MDZS and CQL. I've probably spilt enough ink on MDZS NMJ and we are given very detailed insight into his state of mind so that's a lot easier to reference, but it's worth noting that CQL NMJ is just as profoundly hypocritical and violent and it's vital to incorporate that into his character. Writing only his superficial righteousness, his love for NHS and his affection for LXC is really not enough. It annoys me when aspects of characters are excised in order to sanitise them for what appears to be mainly shipping purposes.

the position they sleep in

I think maybe it varies but he doesn't move much in the night unless he has nightmares. Which no one knows about because he always sleeps alone.

a crossover au i’d love to see them in

I also know what this guy is doing in my ATLA AU, and I'm super boring and not a huge fan of genuine crossovers—usually I prefer mashups where the characters of one canon are integrated into the setting of another without aping the original plot. I think it's really important to retain his arc of a) losing himself to all his worst qualities, and b) acknowledging that he's choosing to lose himself and handling it badly, but also it's not much of a choice when he can't opt out of the system he's in. I'm thinking maybe an X-Men AU where he has some kind of power that causes sabre-spirit-type degeneration and violence? It would need some kinks worked out of it but might be a decent shout.

my favorite outfit they’ve ever worn

Obviously his best look is when WWX is flicking his naked disembodied torso. Iconic.

[fincalinde]

Mama Lan

Oh now this is challenging and you are a fiend who will someday pay for your crimes.

a song that reminds me of them

Going to have to pass on this one, I can't think of anything really.

what they smell like

We know so little about her it's impossible to speculate pre-confinement, but post-confinement I presume it would be sandalwood like all the Lans. Let me take this opportunity to raise a point that has also bothered me for several years: unless someone knows more than me about this particular variety (entirely possible!), blue gentians have little if any scent. I believe the roots and other parts of the plant have a stronger scent when processed for extracts or similar, but a mass of blossoming gentians actually wouldn't smell that strongly.

an otp

N/A, we just don't know enough about her for me to have any shipping preferences in that regard.

a notp

While I know there is technically room to speculate that she did come to love QHJ, I don't think it's the most likely conclusion based on the information we have. The idea isn't something that charms and delights me either. I quite like not knowing the details because, although I'm not totally on board with LXC's desire not to know the truth, I think we know enough to be sure that it is not good. The world of MDZS is not a world where a woman who didn't return a man's love somehow conveniently came to fall for him during or after being consigned to solitary imprisonment for the rest of her life.

Reading between the lines I think the most likely sequence of events is that she chose this life over death and therefore her consent to things such as sexual activity is technical at best. I'm sure there's some good work out there around that, but it's not something I would read whether consensual or nonconsensual or ambiguous; the entire situation makes my skin crawl.

Gun to my head I find coercion less distasteful than a theoretical attempt to sell me on a genuine loving relationship existing between these two particular characters.

favorite platonic/familial relationships

Hands down LXC, mostly because this is another example of how LXC's needs are always treated as secondary to LWJ's. I'm fully aware that LXC tells the story of his mother's life and death to WWX specifically to try to communicate something to him about LWJ (I wonder what that could be), but it is still heartbreaking to me that this man describes his brother's grief in detail and doesn't spare a word for his own.

It's even worse to think of how traumatic it must have been to lose his mother, when he loved her just as much as LWJ did but had the additional burden of worrying about and caring for his didi. Both Twin Jades are raised under unfathomable pressure, but LXC's burden is still the greater and he bears it with such grace that no one ever even notices. This is why it's important to note the lengths JGY goes to in order to ensure LXC's comfort and remove as many burdens and stressors from his life as possible.

I also love the little touch that LXC often visits his mother's house—a thing that unless I've forgotten something is not mentioned in relation to LWJ, and that I therefore choose to read as being unique to him. It's nice to imagine that he has his own genuinely private space, even if being in that space is bittersweet. Clearly he feels closer to his mother there than at the family shrine, which is another nice touch emphasising how their love for each other had to exist outside orthodox spaces.

a headcanon that is popular in the fandom but that i disagree with

I am deeply weary of fandom's steadfast conviction that the yassification of any and all female characters is a powerful feminist statement. I think I will just leave this one here.

the position they sleep in

I hope she sprawls all over that damn bed every night, and I hope QHJ never stays long enough to fall asleep in it.

a crossover au i’d love to see them in

I'm not saying never, but my instinct is that I really prefer her to remain as mysterious as she is in canon and not feature directly. That doesn't really lend itself to crossovers.

my favorite outfit they’ve ever worn

The one covered in the blood of QHJ's teacher. I don't even care whether or not said teacher had it coming.