#tf s3e8

[twdmusicboxmystery]

8-Ball Symbolism and Daryl's Characterization

@galadrieljones

I was rewatching the fight scene from Still last night to try and grab some drawing references and I was reminded of Daryl’s pool references (left corner, eightball). Other than Spencer and Negan in season 7, are there any other pool references in the series you can remember off the top of your head?

@wdway

Nothing immediately has come to mind other than what you mentioned regarding pool. I'll keep it in the back of my mind in case something pops up. Refresh my memory would you, when in Still does Daryl say, left corner, eightball? In the game of pool isn't the 8 ball the last ball that goes in, it ends the game. If it goes in accidentally during the game then that's the game, it's ended. I'm just thinking that Beth was shot in episode 8, her game was ended and in many ways so had Daryl's. And if Daryl actually said left corner, well you know me, I'm always talking about left=Beth.

@galadrieljones

I think he says “Top Left, eight ball.” I’m pretty sure but I should go back and check. I know it was left, just not sure if it’s left corner or top left or too left corner.

And yeah sinking the eight ball ends the game.

Magic eight balls are also a thing, like telling the future

@twdmusicboxmystery

I remember doing a post forever ago about 8 ball symbolism. I believe Eugene makes an 8 ball reference in 6x01. It’s one of the black and white flashbacks and he’s talking about Operation Lead the Walkers Away, but I don’t remember his exact wording

Found it:

Eugene: “It’d help disperse the force of impact and direct the walkers clean. Like a pool table. Eight ball, corner pocket.”

@galadrieljones

Thanks, @twdmusicboxmystery, I’m gonna check this out asap!!

@wdway

Thanks for the link to your post on Eugene's 8 Ball reference. I always enjoy re-reading your posts. I also read bethgreeneprevails post that you gave a link to. I know you guys will be shocked at this, but I fell into a rabbit hole while reading her side tunnel rant about Beth's and Carol's conversation about Daryl in s3e9 The Suicide King. Over the years we've discussed this conversation between Carol and Beth many, many times. The general thought among TD'er is that it indicates that Beth might have had a crush on Daryl. I'm not saying anything new here.

What I want to talk about is that this time in reviewing the conversation it gave me major Deja Vu feelings about the conversation between Leah and Daryl in Find Me. In TSK Beth is upset at Daryl for choosing his brother over her/them/TF. In the next episode, s3e8 Home, Daryl realizes that he had made a mistake in going off with Merle and in the end, he realizes that he needs to go home, back to where he belongs, back to TF.

This is roughly what happened in Find Me. Leah is upset because Daryl is going to leave her and go search for his brother, she wants him to stay with her, she tells him he belongs with her. He leaves. At the end of the episode, he's rethinking what he has done, and he returns to the cabin, but she's just gone.

In Home, he returns to where he belongs with the people he belongs with. In Find Me, he returns but the person that he believes he should be with is gone. Is this a foreshadowing of him returning to the person who he truly belongs with, and that person will be there when he finds her, or she finds him? Is this what I call back shadowing, to remind us of where he does belong. The other thing about these two episodes from s3, TSK and Home, is that Rick is having hallucinations about Lori. He was seeing Lori, but he didn't see the true Lori, what he saw was a made-up version of Lori dressed in white. It wasn’t true to who Lori really was. We could say the same thing about Daryl not seeing Leah for who she really was.

@galadrieljones

Okay great catch on the parallels with TSK/Home and Find Me. I love that!

@wdway

The other thing that ties this all together with Beth is that this is the first episode that we see the same license tag number on the white and black jeep with the pink, yes, I'm Sirius, I said pink, dog carrier, strap to the top of the vehicle. The same license tag number that we saw on the black car, white cross that took Beth in Alone.

@galadrieljones

Also I read both posts as well and found them really interesting. The red cue ball being #3 was very interesting. I was also interested in the inverse red stripe cue ball being #11. I really love your analysis of the 8ball as being “endgame,” and all the 8s around Beth at Grady.

The ouroboros is also often depicted as an 8 in the series—re: Alpha’s belt buckle and the symbol on Teddy’s box—indicating the mantra “The end is the beginning” which is a thematic parallel to the notion of a coda. We see the ouroboros in the episode of Fear which revolves around John Dorie Sr. being unable to rest until he finds the body of a dead girl from many years ago which turns out to be essentially hidden in the walls.

When Daryl calls the 8ball in Still, he misses. He’s drunk and screwing around but still. Beth then immediately goes and kills the walker. Daryl is bummed out because “we was having fun,” and Beth calls him a jackass who’s running from his feelings and this is how the fight takes off. Because killing them isn’t supposed to be fun. If you call the 8ball, you better sink it. Idk what I’m saying other than that Daryl, despite calling the endgame, can’t finish the game by himself. Beth finishes it for him because he is for whatever reason blinded.

@wdway

The car was on the Yellow Jacket Creek Bridge.

@galadrieljones

So this is the first time we see it?

@wdway:

Yes, that is the first time we see that tag. On the Jeep with the pink dog/Sirius carrier. We saw the tag number in s3e10 Home, s4e13 Alone, s4e15 Us, s5e5 Self-Help (white school bus) and s5e7 Crossed.

In the post by Bethgreeneprevails she talks a lot about the numbers 8 and 3. She then gave a link to other people's thoughts on the 8 ball and the number 3. One of them, I can't remember which had talked about how they hoped that it was foreshadowing that Daryl and Beth would be reunited in s8e3. We know that didn't happen. I'm because I'm so excited to tell you about s8e3, I think you guys are going to love this I know I did. S8e2 Mercy and S8e3 Monsters were both written by Matthew Negrete and Channing Powell. At the end of the episode Mercy, we saw in the background the same painting with Rick in the frame as seen in the episode Still. We also saw a character that had gone missing/left in s1 return. He was also in a scene at the beginning of e3, just before Daryl killed him. By the way guess who wrote s7e8 Hearts Still Beating, that's right, Matthew Negrete and Channing Powell. The same writers that wrote Inmates and Slabtown. I'm sure it's all a coincidence and not related in any way. Not.

@galadrieljones

I remember the 8.3 revelation for sure, mostly via frangi and the painting with the cranes and how they communicate with the one/one t-shirt that Noah wore. To me that is a lot of intricate connection that cannot be coincidence alone. I love that Powell wrote Hearts Still Beating. She wrote it also with our guy Matthew Negrete. I actually love that episode even tho it’s a horrible turn for Daryl. It just seems like it’s embedded with a lot of important global imagery. We see the chess pieces and references that tie Dwight to the crusades and the Seventh Seal, a reference that comes back in Alaska when he is stricken with bubonic plague (and finds his true love). The peanut butter, too. Hearts still beating reminds me of Carol telling Daryl in Them “You’re not dead.” It also reminds me of Beth telling Daryl that he has to let it go “or it kills you…here” and touches her hand to her heart.

@twdmusicboxmystery

Wow! This is so great! I knew if I sent you guys that link, you'd find new stuff! I've been so tired the past few days (work has been crazy) my brain just hasn't been firing on all cylinders.

I had never thought to connect the events of Home (my fav episode of S3) to Find Me. That's genius. And it just goes to show that we're right about the writers revisitng earlier story lines and making them new and continuous for the characters. Gimple WAS working on the show in S3, but as mostly a junior writer, still. Even though I'm sure the show runner had some idea where he THOUGHT he was going with things, he was ultimately fired for cutting back and forth, killing off characters for no reason other than shock value, and basically giving everyone whip lash.

And it's interesting, because it just feels like fate. Merle was supposed to survive S3, originally. He was Daryl's brother. That's why they did this storyline. The actors, the network, and even the fans were way disappointed when he died, because he was just starting to finally get his redemption, and people were loving his character by that point. Both for himself, and for Daryl, I'm sure. But with Merle gone, they made the very conscious choice to make Rick "his brother" in S4. Ever since then, every time we see Daryl searching for his brother and changing his mind about something, it's always about Rick.

But throwing Leah into the mix shows that Beth will ultimately be in there somewhere, too. I think it's VERY possible that Daryl goes to France searching for Rick. As we've discussed, he has a specific mission, and maybe it's that he hears some hint of Rick and is following information to where he might be. But along the way, he runs into Beth. As someone pointed out above, that's exactly what happens in Find Me, which was clearly one huge foreshadow. He was searching, along a body of water no less, for Rick, and he found Leah. Via Dog (Sirius).

Anyway, I'm rambling. You both know all this. I just really love the connections here. Just working them out in my own mind. ;D Can't wait for October!!!

@galadrieljones

I read something about 18miles Out as being Gimple’s first real showing as a writer on TWD. The entire fight with Rick and Shane opposing the quiet action with Beth back at the farm was his idea. Homecomes just before Clear, which is all Gimple’s and definitely an early symbolism hotbed as well as the episode that establishes Morgan as Gimple’s “prophet.” Clear is also the episode when Michonne and Rick bring back Daryl’s new crossbow which I think has major meaning for his development.

Home I think shows that the writers had bigger plans for Daryl. He became a real lead. I definitely think it’s safe to say that Gimple was at least present enough at this point to have some ideas for what he wanted the future of his beats and of the show to look like. I am assuming that’s how you get made into a showrunner. You have a vision.

I really do like the idea that he’s looking for Rick and finds something else, which takes him on an unexpected journey to learn more about Beth and even find her.

We already have an indication that he’ll find another Beth lookalike, only this time instead of a mercenary psychopath who works for a “pope,” he will meet a nun. I can’t imagine that not being purposeful. Leah led Daryl down a winding path away from his family and his true mission.

Will Isabelle lead him on the path back to them? Will he finally learn his true mission? Many ppl in the GA do assume he is looking for Rick and they seem to view a reunion with Rick as Daryl’s ultimate endgame. But I don’t see that. Ricks endgame isn’t Daryl, it’s Michonne. Why would Daryl’s be Rick? That does a disservice to Daryl.

I think finding Rick would be important to Daryl but “he deserves his own happy ending.” I have to believe that doesn’t just mean finding Rick again. Rick is Judith’s happy ending, and I think Judith recognizes this when she says, “Thanks for looking for my parents but you need to find your endgame, too.” Daryl and Rick went their separate ways long ago. Finding Rick will only allow Daryl to bring him back to Judith. It won’t solve Daryl’s emptiness or unhappiness. He was empty well before he lost Rick. This discussion makes me start to understand the purpose of 10c much more and to see just how far out ahead of things they really were.

@wdway

Both Scott Gimple and Glenn Mazzara are listed as writers for 18 Miles Out. I know this is probably silly but it occurred to me last night that 18 Miles Out, was such a huge episode for Beth in her importance in the story going forward. 30 Days Without An Accident (another Gimple episode) was another beginning of a major arc for Beth. I'm thinking we need more episodes with numbers in the titles, haha.

@galadrieljones

(As I was typing endgame above I started thinking of the 8ball again. Getting to that 8ball.)

@wdway

Guys, I was excited to make the connection between Carol, Beth's conversation and the ties with the storyline of Leah. It definitely helped me with more understanding why Leah even existed. I can't believe we didn't see this earlier. You never know what's going to spark a thought, a connection, that's why going back and reading older post is important. I want to speak to both of y'all thoughts about Daryl initially searching for Rick in the spin-off. I am open to it although I don't have any strong feeling either way, to tell you the truth.

What I came away with after connecting Carol/Beth's conversation with Leah's and Daryl in both s3 Home and s10 Find Me, in both episodes it was about Daryl searching for his brother, his biological one and then his chosen one. He walked away from his family in order to do that. At the end of episode Home, Daryl comes to realize that he deserves his own life, that it is time to pursue his own happiness, his own destiny and by doing so he's not abandoning his brother's, he is simply putting himself first. That is how I perceive the storyline going in the spin-off. Daryl will finally realize he needs to put his own desires before that of finding Rick. I can also see Carol helping Daryl as a bit of payback for all the times that he had had Carol's back when she was trying to escape from her problems or situations.

@galadrieljones

It’s a perfect analysis of a Daryl’s character and I agree 100%. I think that if Daryl does go off in search of Rick it will end up like you said, which is very close to what I said I think, ie: he can’t make finding his brother be his entire life’s purpose and mission. He needs his own purpose and his own mission. The idea of searching is essential to who Daryl is and all of his struggles. It may even be that he needs to resist this time. And that it’s the moment he finally chooses to stop searching altogether that he finally finds what he’s looking for (love). In the teaser he says, “I went out looking for something, and all I found was trouble.” This is ALWAYS true. It’s true in Chupacabra, in Consumed, in Find Me, and now. Daryl’s story about how no one came to search for him in the woods when he was a kid is proving to be his most defining moment.

I wanted to quickly add to that I think a big part of Daryl’s characterization, that he is a compulsive provider, always worried about others and never himself, has in some ways colored the GA’s perception of him. They still see him as existing only in service to Rick. They can’t imagine him on an independent mission that revolves around finding something that’s just for him.

@wdway

Well put. I think we're all on the same page. I just wanted to point out that I believe a lot of the purpose of the episode Find Me was as a call back (which we totally did not get until now) to season 3 TSK/Home. That those episodes were not only foreshadowing to Find Me, but also to the spin-off.

@wdway

Daryl has always been the better friend, not only to Carol but to Rick than they have been to him. And they have come to really take him for granted that their needs and desires were more important than his. This is always been a pet peeve for me because Beth is the only one that we ever saw asking Daryl about himself, about comparing dreams, no one else has done that. That's why I hope with Carol joining him that the whole purpose would be for Daryl's goals and his happiness.

@galadrieljones

Well said. I couldn’t agree more.

[nosolaceofastraightanswer]

tua ALGAMATION post !!!!! for the rewatch ooooofffff: s3e8!!!!

im trying to switch it up B)

end of the world karaoke bachelor party >>>>

i miss u!ben :(((((

also how do they know there weren’t people left besides them like. did you check??

also also how tf did reginald and klaus get home from the field (?) road.

also also also why didn’t they have sparrow ben and sloane have this convo like. 4 eps ago. we could’ve had so much more character development

so many questions.

+ i can’t believe they gave allison a villain arc but her villain arc was just being mean to people. she killed harlan, but it was fucking offscreen. at least commit to the bit smh smh. like at least have her doing evil things!!! what, she kills a guy and tortures (?) sloane that one time but now all she’s doing is being mean to viktor a lot 😭😭😭 what. like i know she has a plan or whatever but she only made that in this episode- it’s been almost an entire season. like they made her boring cus she’s not shown as fucking doing anything but rolling her eyes and making snarky comments. 💀 PLEASE JUST HAVE HER KILL PEOPLE LIKE ✋😫

god how tf are they gonna do it in 6 episodes. they better be 2 hours long each istg

[offonmyown]

s3e8 thots n stuff:

--not much to say about this episode but in a good way. It was pure fluff! Just some good times and character moments with what remains of the Hargreeves

--Viktor's smile when Luther asked him to be his best man 😭😭😭

--Hargreeves bros karaoke...iconic

--Diego and Lila are not good for each other but they are evenly matched and yknow what? That's ok with me. Their personalities are alike so it works

--Allison doesn't *need* to do anything but I would like to see her come out of the dark place she's in by the end of the season because ffs she's been through so much

--how tf is Rodo guy still alive...how is he in on all this

--final thought: on a scale of 1-10 how weird is it that Sloane's last name didn't need to change after marrying Luther?

[bdbdhdjdhdh]

My Hero PSLE: S3E8 "Xiao Ming, tf is wrong with you"

"It's like, when did Star Wars become all political and anti-fascist?" "1995."

-Eleanor Shellstrop

So Xiao Ming has now been transformed by the Sin of Wrath into some godly being.

Oh Xiao Hua and gang wasn't alone in helping to bring Xiao Ming back. For starters, there was Thunder Hands, and also the commotion and most definitely the Chronicle's death attracted a lot of Chronicles to come too.

And also there were two Inhumans or something who also came to see what the hell was going on-there was a man and a woman. The man looked like he was wearing royalty clothing with a crown of thorns and the woman was wearing ragged clothes like a filthy peasant.

Yep, the man was most definitely the Keeper of the Deadly Sin from the Inhumans.

But eh, who knows, maybe there's a plot twist in the end and the woman is actually the Keeper but whatever.

So then Thunder Hands tried to calm him down: "Wait Izanagi, do-"

PEWPEWPEWEEWPWPWP! Aaaaaannnd then he got shot and died. The end.

Just kidding. He got shot but he didn't die. So the Inhuman guy was like: "You know what? Fuck trying to reason with this guy, I'm going to need the power of another Deadly Sin to take this guy down!"

So he just went over to the Chronicle-Tempest, to be specific, and just took he Sin of Gluttony off her hands.

And then she was like: "Ey, what that for?"

So he just: "Ayaayyaya, I'll give it back to you once I'll dealt with this guy here,"

"Fine lah fine lah, take it lah,"

So he merged the Deadly Sin with his body, and then, empowered by it, he lunged forward at Xiao Ming, charged up his sword with divine Deadly Sin energy, and just like PEWPEWPEW! at the exposed part of the Deadly Sin of Xiao Ming.

But it didn't work lmao. He just got really pissed and then shot at the Inhuman guy so he also got shot.

Then Zhi Hua decided to do something that everyone will rush to document it.

He put down his weapon, rushed forward to Xiao Ming, but instead of attacking him, ya know what he did?

HE FUCKING KISSED HIM. LIKE ON THE LIPS.

And then Xiao Ming was like: *immediately comes back to senses* "WHAT THE FUCK ZHI HUA WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING TO-"

And then he just fell and died.

No lah, just kidding lah, it's Xiao Ming leh, he cannot mati so easily one.

He was like the Patrick guy in Lamb To The Slaughter, after he got hit by the lamb leg, he can still stand for a while, and then he just: *wobble wobble* *lands flat on the floor face down*

But then you know who is the first person to rush to his corpse him?

Again, ZHI FUCKING HUA.

No shit. This man legit gives more fucks to Xiao Ming than to the 5 of his grandparents he unplugged the life support on last week.

He was just like: "NOOOO XIAO MING NOOOO! AHYAYAYYA MUST DO MOUTH-TO-MOUTH AGAIN!

And then before his lips can touch his again, Xiao Ming immediately got up and was like: "Aw hell naw, ain't no way I'm letting that shit happen again!"

Well, in both occasions, a heartfelt kiss saved his life.

And remember back in Season 1 when they were caught by the Grandmaster while sneaking into his office to get documents he also pretended to do mouth-to-mouth.

Actually not pretended leh, they did it for real.

Yeah yeah yeah anyway enough about their intimacy.

The real action was happening. Tempest stole back the Sin of Gluttony, got her hands on the Sin of Wrath, and now is preparing to put on her magic glove.

And then before anyone could react, she rushed forward towards the Inhuman man, and pulled out a Deadly Sin from his stomach.

Oh nevermind I guess he really was the Keeper then, no plot twists.

But this one different sia.

This one like not glowing with the dark energy lidat.

But I guess the Chronicles never realise, cos they collect the corpse of the charred Chronicle, just like left Thunder Hands there and then left.

Weird and rude af people bruh.

But anyway Thunder Hands suddenly ran towards them and then got down on his knees and started crying: "OMG GUYS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SAVING ME AHAHHA I L-"

"Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, whatever whatever," Xiao Hua rather impatiently said.

"Now I just have one question, I wanna know why the fuck was his Deadly Sin different from the rest," The Grandmaster asked. Wah observant sia.

"Oh, that," The Inhuman girl said. "Lmao, that's mostly cos it's a fake,"

[shikiswife]

Everyone upon reuniting with Lǐn,

//intense war flashbacks//

~Thunderbolt fantasy s3e8, Lǐn Xuě Yā & Lóu Zhèn Jiè

[zoeology31]

EOA Thoughts: Gabaomi... 2!

General thesis:

I’m not mad that Gabaomi is canon (at least not on its own merits), and I don’t think it’s bad writing (rushed maybe, but not outright bad).

Now let’s talk about those bits in parentheses.

In the first post I discussed the implications of Gabaomi on the show’s potential for LGBT+ representation. Tl;dr: the odds don’t look good now.

Tying into all this is the fact that Gabe and Naomi’s dynamic just isn’t as thoroughly developed. Don’t get me wrong, there’s always plenty of subtleties and interpretation and “personality compatibility” if you’re looking for it (my formative fandom ship was Helsa for god’s sake). But when a ship becomes canon, I expect to be able to look back and see their progression of strong friendship, trust, and caring for each other that helps me root for them to get together. And there’s just not enough to convince me, even in hindsight.

By the numbers, Naomi and Gabe have appeared together in 25 of 63 episodes. In 10 of those episodes, they never or barely interact (S1E1, S1E2, S1E3, S1E11, S1E25, S2E2, S2E16, S2E18, S2E19, S3E8), though I’ll give “Snow Place Like Home” a pass since Naomi did get an olaball for Gabe for Navidad. By contrast, Elena and Mateo appear together in 33 episodes plus the pilot and interact in all but 1 (S1E16), not to mention having multiple episodes with their dynamic as a major focus.

Essentially, the writers have had less than half the screen time to build up the Gabe/Naomi dynamic, so we see a lot less and have to assume a lot more. There are no “Spellbound” moments, where Naomi or Gabe encourages the other in the face of repeated adversity and self-doubt. There are no “Scepter of Light” or “Realm of the Jaquins” moments, where they have a private moment thanking the other for standing by their side.

Now there are two obvious counterarguments here: 1) Elena is the main character, so moments like these may well have happened between Naomi and Gabe offscreen because they didn’t affect Elena’s story. 2) Naomi and Gabe express a close relationship in different, less obvious ways, like the bickering and working together in fights.

If that’s the route the writers were trying to take? Fine, nothing wrong with that. The problem is, for the audience to be on board with this kind of ship before the reveal, they have to already be invested in looking for and assuming that dynamic. Without the more overt, onscreen interactions that fuel many of the other ships in the fandom, people won’t “convert” to the ship from neutrality or another preference. And that’s why several people have been saying the Gabaomi confirmation seemed “out of left field”.

Personally, the moments that come across as shippy to me pre-“Norberg Peace Prize” are 1) the dance at Naomi’s quinceañera, 2) Naomi calling Gabe handsome, and 3) the hug in “Naomi Knows Best”. All three of those scenes leaned towards telling rather than showing, like a signal they’d reached X level of friendship rather than organically showing that dynamic. Every other interaction read and still reads to me as friends.

Can people go from friends to lovers? Yes, absolutely, and in fact I think that’s how it should go. But it’s like walking up a long flight of stairs; you start as acquaintances or mutual friends and take one, maybe a couple steps at a time until you look around and realize you’re in a totally different spot from before. You’re not teleporting; there’s a clear progression behind you. And I don’t think we’re shown quite enough of that progression for Gabaomi.

In summary, any reaction on the spectrum of “OMG I knew it!” to “where tf did that come from” is a valid interpretation. But I also think it’s not fair to call it “bad writing”, because the setup was certainly there, even if I find it lacking. After their respective relationships with Elena, Gabe and Naomi definitely had the strongest buildup with each other, so I’m not surprised on a meta level. Of course, it’s canon now, so the bar’s been reset. I think Gabe and Naomi can make a good couple and the writers can do a good job with them. They certainly have a solid enough friendship to support a romance, and their moments in “Norberg Peace Prize” and “The Magic Within” were quite cute. 

[shikiswife]

Dodging responsibilities master, Lǐn Xuě Yā

~Thunderbolt fantasy s3e8,  Lǐn Xuě Yā &  Lóu Zhèn Jiè

[shikiswife]

Honestly, I really felt for Lóu in this one. so close to his princess, yet so far away :c

When a yandere and tsundere fall in love