#the miller's boys were theon's sons

[istumpysk]

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

The miller's boys were Theon's sons.

TIER:

People's Choice!

It wouldn't be as fun if I picked everything. I trust you to choose the right one.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

vs.

Long Shot: These theories are largely speculative, based more on wishful thinking or obscure hints than on solid evidence.

vs.

Debunked: These theories have been directly contradicted by the text, George R. R. Martin, or other authoritative sources.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Theon had been intimate with the wife of the miller.

Theon knew the mill. He had even tumbled the miller's wife a time or two. There was nothing special about it, or her. - Theon IV, ACOK

A hooded figure, thought to be a figment of Theon's imagination, calls Theon a kinslayer. Theon knows he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, so why would he call himself that?

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer." "I'm not. I never … I was ironborn." - A Ghost in Winterfell, ADWD

After a transition from a Theon chapter to a Jon chapter, Ygritte tells Jon a story about a Lord of Winterfell who unknowingly kills his father. Theon, who called himself the Prince of Winterfell, could have done the exact opposite.

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon. "Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." - Jon VI, ACOK

In one of Theon's initial chapters, he rather famously fails to recognize his own sister.

"I like to be on top." Where has this wench been all my life? "My father's hall is dim and dank. It needs Esgred to make the fires blaze." - Theon II, ACOK

Roose Bolton tells Theon the story of how he impregnated a miller's wife.

"This miller's marriage had been performed without my leave or knowledge. The man had cheated me. So I had him hanged, and claimed my rights beneath the tree where he was swaying. If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope. The fox escaped as well, and on our way back to the Dreadfort my favorite courser came up lame, so all in all it was a dismal day. "A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get. I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes. [...]" - Reek III, ADWD

Some believe Theon is dodging confronting his thoughts and emotions about the miller's sons, and being a kinslayer.

Robb was murdered at the Twins, and Bran and Rickon … we dipped the heads in tar … His own head was pounding. He did not want to think about anything that had happened before he knew his name. There were things too hurtful to remember, thoughts almost as painful as Ramsay's flaying knife … - Reek III, ADWD

x

"I have done terrible things … betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me … but I am no kinslayer." "Stark's boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know." That was true, but it was not what Theon had meant. They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some miller's sons. Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller's wife for years, had even bedded her. Big heavy breasts with wide dark nipples, a sweet mouth, a merry laugh. Joys that I will never taste again. - Theon I, ADWD

x

"[...] Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" The question frightened him. Once he had heard Skinner say that the Bastard had killed his trueborn brother, but he had never dared to believe it. He could be wrong. Brothers die sometimes, it does not mean that they were killed. My brothers died, and I never killed them. - Reek III, ADWD

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

Someone call a steward, the math is not mathing. At the start of A Clash of Kings, Theon is 20 years old, Bran is 8, and Rickon is 4.

As Theon shrugged out of his wet cloak, the girl said, "You must be so happy to see your home again, milord. How many years have you been away?" "Ten, or close as makes no matter," he told her. "I was a boy of ten when I was taken to Winterfell as a ward of Eddard Stark." - Theon I, ACOK

x

"Bran, child, why do you torment yourself so? One day you may do some of these things, but now you are only a boy of eight." - Bran I, ACOK

x

When the Walders had arrived from the Twins, it had been Rickon who wanted them gone. A baby of four, he had screamed that he wanted Mother and Father and Robb, not these strangers. - Bran I, ACOK

The sons of the miller were of similar ages to Bran and Rickon.

For Theon to be the father, it would mean that the miller's wife had slept with him when he was a 12-year-old hostage/ward of the Lord of Winterfell, which is highly improbable.

It's somewhat more plausible that he slept with the miller's wife when he was 16, making only the second son his. But one has to wonder, what would be the point of one son being his and not the other?

The miller's boys had been of an age with Bran and Rickon, alike in size and coloring, and once Reek had flayed the skin from their faces and dipped their heads in tar, it was easy to see familiar features in those misshapen lumps of rotting flesh. - Theon V, ACOK

In A Dance of Dragons, Theon recalls his early years at Winterfell, where as a boy he would skip stones, hide treasures, and stalk squirrels. He notes that it was later when he first kissed a girl, and even later still when he lost his virginity to a girl in the godswood. All these things point to Theon becoming sexually active in his later teens.

Theon Greyjoy was no stranger to this godswood. He had played here as a boy, skipping stones across the cold black pool beneath the weirwood, hiding his treasures in the bole of an ancient oak, stalking squirrels with a bow he made himself. Later, older, he had soaked his bruises in the hot springs after many a session in the yard with Robb and Jory and Jon Snow. In amongst these chestnuts and elms and soldier pines he had found secret places where he could hide when he wanted to be alone. The first time he had ever kissed a girl had been here. Later, a different girl had made a man of him upon a ragged quilt in the shade of that tall grey-green sentinel. - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

Theon claims he slept with the miller's wife "a time or two" (what potent sperm, must be a secret Tully) and specifically recalls seeing stretch marks on her stomach, indicating their sexual encounters happened after she had children.

Theon knew the mill. He had even tumbled the miller's wife a time or two. There was nothing special about it, or her. - Theon IV, ACOK

x

The night before, it had been the miller's wife. Theon had forgotten her name, but he remembered her body, soft pillowy breasts and stretch marks on her belly, the way she clawed his back when he fucked her. - Theon V, ACOK

If Theon were the father of the miller's children, wouldn't there be some sign that the miller's wife begged him to not harm his own offspring?

The night before, it had been the miller's wife. Theon had forgotten her name, but he remembered her body, soft pillowy breasts and stretch marks on her belly, the way she clawed his back when he fucked her. Last night in his dream he had been in bed with her once again, but this time she had teeth above and below, and she tore out his throat even as she was gnawing off his manhood. It was madness. He'd seen her die too. Gelmarr had cut her down with one blow of his axe as she cried to Theon for mercy. Leave me, woman. It was him who killed you, not me. - Theon V, ACOK

It's not just the hooded man, Rowan the spearwife, and Mors Umber also call Theon a kinslayer, despite not knowing about his affair with the miller's wife. This suggests that the theme of kinslaying in Theon's story mainly stems from his internal conflict between his Stark and Greyjoy identities, as well as his guilt over contributing to Robb Stark's downfall, whom he views as a brother.

"Not us." Rowan grabbed him by the throat and shoved him back against the barracks wall, her face an inch from his. "Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer." - Theon I, ADWD

x

"I am — " " — a turncloak and a kinslayer," Crowfood had finished. - Theon I, TWOW

x

"[...] Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" The question frightened him. Once he had heard Skinner say that the Bastard had killed his trueborn brother, but he had never dared to believe it. He could be wrong. Brothers die sometimes, it does not mean that they were killed. My brothers died, and I never killed them. - Reek III, ADWD

And finally, the story of Bael the Bard has virtually no parallels with Theon's takeover of Winterfell.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Weeaaakkk.

If you're looking for a credible theory about Theon having a secret child, wait until we cover the daughter of the captain of the Myraham.

VOTE:

NEXT THEORY:

Curtain of Light 🙂

[ladystoneboobs]

[Bran, to Theon:]“But you’re Father’s ward.” [Theon, to Bran:]“And now you and your brother are my wards. [...] You’ll tell them how you’ve yielded Winterfell to me, and command them to serve and obey their new lord as they did the old.” -Bran VI, aCoK “He[Ramsay] is a great hunter,” said Wyman Manderly, “and women are his favorite prey. He strips them naked and sets them loose in the woods. They have a half day’s start before he sets out after them with hounds and horns. From time to time some wench escapes and lives to tell the tale. Most are less fortunate. When Ramsay catches them he rapes them, flays them, feeds their corpses to his dogs, and brings their skins back to the Dreadfort as trophies. If they have given him good sport, he slits their throats before he skins them. Elsewise, t’other way around.” -Davos IV, aDwD [Roose, to Theon, about Ramsay's mother:]"[...]I was hunting a fox along the Weeping Water when I chanced upon a mill and saw a young woman washing clothes in the stream. The old miller had gotten himself a new young wife, a girl not half his age. She was a tall, willowy creature, very healthy-looking. Long legs and small firm breasts, like two ripe plums. Pretty, in a common sort of way. The moment that I set eyes on her I wanted her. Such was my due. [...] This miller’s marriage had been performed without my leave or knowledge. The man had cheated me. So I had him hanged, and claimed my rights beneath the tree where he was swaying. If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope. The fox escaped as well, and on our way back to the Dreadfort my favorite courser came up lame, so all in all it was a dismal day." -Reek(/Theon) III, aDwD

something something the way theon tries to rectify his childhood trauma by taking his captor's place as lord of wf and taking ned's younger sons as his "wards"/hostages, while ramsay repeatedly reenacts different versions of his own conception by hunting and raping peasant women. except theon fails in his role reversal when (unlike him in his own captivity at wf) bran and rickon escape custody. and ramsay enhances roose's "dismal day" by killing all the women he catches to prevent any more bolton bastards and further punishing those of them who fail to give him "good sport" (which his mother apparently did not give roose) while those who do satisfy him are "honored" with a quick death (and a canine namesake). and then the consequences of theon's failure to replace his captor/cold noerthern father figure include losing wf to house bolton and becoming the new "reek"/another of ramsay's dogs. (meaning he made himself ramsay's prey but gave him "good sport" in the experience)

ramsay starts out as deceptive dark trickster figure/evil adviser/devil on theon's shoulder in clash but he's also a dark mirror of theon, and a more successful one at that, not just better suited to villainy but more able to get away with his crimes. neither will ever be truly accepted by their fathers but ramsay is made heir once he's the only son while theon is rejected as such despite his better birth. ramsay profits from the alleged kinslaying of his actual brother by blood, while theon is more openly condemned (and seen as still not punished enough) for (falsely) killing stark boys who were never his actual kin. it's almost as if ramsay is an evil force who came into being to find theon and was drawn to him upon his return to the north. we first learn of the bastard of bolton's existence after theon returns to pyke and learns of his father's invasion plans, then his last hunt with the original reek just shortly precedes the ironborn attacks, all so that he's captured and waiting in wf right in time for theon's real plan to go into action, and we don't actually meet (disguised) ramsay in-person through dialogue with rodrik cassell or any other northerner but only when theon arrives as the new lord to free him from the dungeon. as the first reek may have corrupted ramsay, ramsay-as-reek corrupts theon. reek belongs to ramsay and ramsay belongs to reek.

[selkiewife]

I am so interested in the fact that Ramsay, who was himself a miller’s son (his mother was the miller’s wife), chooses the miller’s sons from Acorn Water to pass off as Bran and Rickon in A Clash of Kings. Yet we don’t find that out Ramsay was also a miller’s boy until this conversation Theon has with Roose:

(TW: Rape, Murder, general fucked-upness):

“...This miller's marriage had been performed without my leave or knowledge. The man had cheated me. So I had him hanged, and claimed my rights beneath the tree where he was swaying. If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope. The fox escaped as well, and on our way back to the Dreadfort my favorite courser came up lame, so all in all it was a dismal day.

A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get. I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes. She told me that when her dead husband's brother saw those eyes, he beat her bloody and drove her from the mill. That annoyed me, so I gave her the mill and had the brother's tongue cut out, to make certain he did not go running to Winterfell with tales that might disturb Lord Rickard. Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." 

~ A Dance with Dragons, Reek III

It just makes me wonder. Most likely Ramsay chose the miller’s boys to pass off as Bran and Rickon because they were convenient. But the idea that Ramsay himself was also a miller’s boy who was originally dismissed as nothing by his father, adds another layer. And I keep turning it around in my head. Is Ramsay forcing a parallel between Theon and Roose so that he can punish Theon the way he can’t punish his father? Did Ramsay know that Theon had slept with the miller’s wife? Apparently Ramsay stops at the mill with Ser Rodrik when he is still posing as Reek and she sells them hay for their horses. Even if Ramsay didn’t know of the tryst between Theon and the miller’s wife, he at least sets Theon up to dismiss the miller’s sons as worthless, just as he had been dismissed. Obviously, Ramsay also views the lives of the miller’s sons as worthless as well. But, there is something there I think? Maybe? some subconscious desire to set Theon up to play the role of his father and then to cut him down for it and make him as worthless as Ramsay himself was once treated? 

There are other parallels and anti-parallels between Theon and Roose- Theon’s ACOK’s arc paralleling Roose’s ADWD’s arc. Theon mocking Roose at Robb’s councils turning into Roose mocking Theon in ADWD, and Theon’s premature aging vs Roose never seeming to age- @amuelia has a wonderful artwork about this! Could the miller’s sons be another parallel? I don’t know... thoughts? Tell me even even you disagree completely! I just want to talk about it lol. 

[kingsmoot]

ahhh i sent this ask to wormlips accidentally i got confused by the wams pfps >_<. still i want to hear your opinion on this -- what do you think the ramsay's mom miller's wife was like as a person, have you any thoughts? and what do you think theon's lover miller's wife was like? also, on the horrible miller's wife multiverse, what's your opinion on the theory that the younger miller's boy was theon's bastard --- some reckon it adds an ironic what qualifies as kinslaying tragedy, others find it excessive and that it takes away from theon organically thinking about smallfolk and feeling regret unbefitting of his once-place on the social ladder.

ah what an honor to be mixed up w my friend @wormlips 🪳🩷🪱 who did btw answer this question here:

ok i will give you my first headcanon which is that ramsay's mom and the miller's wife of acorn water are the same woman. this is directly refuted by canon because theon's part time lover lives in acorn water while the woman roose rapes lives next to the weeping water stream. but genuinely idc. maybe she moved!! i think this being the same miller's wife adds a perfect layer of abject horror onto a very tall layer cake of abject horror after abject horror so this is a part of my belief system.

also sorry i think the theory that the miller's wife's children are theon's is ridiculous. maybe george can't do math but i can. and in this particular instance so can george, actually.

the boys theon killed were of an age with bran and rickon in acok. that would make them around 9 and 4, respectively. theon in acok is 19, so for both of them to have been his that means that he would have impregnated the miller's wife at age NINE and sixteen. that's bananas. this man was not banging the neighborhood milf at NINE. he would have JUST gotten to winterfell and more importantly he would have been NINE YEARS OLD.

i also don't think it's really implied at all. in fact in adwd theon even says that he's no kinslayer because he didn't really kill his baby brothers, bran and rickon, just some miller's sons...

and does this underscore the class divide in westeros? yes. but ALSO: ramsay was actually the one to kill them and cut off their faces otis driftwood style. and who is actually a kinslayer and has murdered one half brother already? wams. so i think it makes narrative sense if those kiddos that theon passed off as the corpses of bran and rickon were wams' half brothers. which he also would have known.

because like. i know "the cycles are cycling" is this website's full time greek choir chant but it's truuuuue. that's like rams' whole... thing. he is the culmination of roose's scorched earth cruelty. he will be the end of house bolton. he was made by the man he is destined to destroy. he will devour every last trace of this once great house. every prodigal son. every swaddling babe. every new bastard and every new heir. utter desolation. and he serves as the same kind of mirror to theon as he does to roose!! reflecting theon's cruelty, sexual violence, and lack of self back at him x1000. he is a reflection of the father and of his fellow rejected/abandoned son. he is the culmination of both of their mounting cruelty it's SO GOOD it's such a rich vein in the narrative 🥰

AND ADDITIONALLY it feels in character that wams-disguised-as-reek could have seen his mom when she sold ser rodrick hay on their way from the dreadfort to winterfell and she would not have said anything about wams being her child, roose bolton's bastard, for TWO reasons:

1. canonically, everyone and their dog and their dog's cousin and their dog's cousin's third aunt saw ramsay with his PIERCING WHITE SCLERA LENS EYES and BOTTLE BLACK HAIR after he was captured from THE FOREST SURROUNDING THE DREADFORT and thought "ok well that could mean anything" (can i just say. theon gets a lot of shit for this. which he deserves. but NO ONE ELSE GETS ANY SHIT AND I THINK THEY SHOULD. COME ON, GUYS. FUCK YOU IN PARTICULAR SER RODRICK.)

2. if she did recognize him (i think she would have) and she was his mama (i think she is) she would never ever ever ever give him up. she would have stayed silent.

why would i say so? because i really only have one thing to say about wamsay's mama which i've said before and which i'm never not thinking about. ramsay's mom, like cersei, has had everything taken from her. and the only way she can indirectly reclaim agency in this world is through what is given to her son.

she knew exactly what kind of man roose bolton was. she probably knew better and more intimately than most!! but she did not protect her son from him. just the opposite, she insisted that he claim him as his child. that he recognize his own. IT'S SO ROSEMARY'S BABY, LIKE.... BEAR WITNESS UNTO THAT WHICH YE HAVE WROUGHT, ROOSE!!!!! and then roose knows, of course. roose knows as soon as he sees that little boy that the child is his and he also knows exactly WHAT ramsay is. he knows that child will be the death of his house. but he also cannot refuse him!!! no man is so hated by the gods as the kinslayer!!! roose is bound to ramsay by blood!! chained to his own undoing by nature of being its creator!!

and then what does roose do?? puts a known murderer + serial rapist in charge of raising his own flesh and blood child. another thing that ramsay's mama does not protect him from. another thing she encourages, actually, because molding ramsay into a monster means he is more likely to get his due. her due. what is owed to him as the son of a great house. what is owed to her as a woman who had everything taken from her and no way to get any of it back. ANNIHILATION!!!

this got a little more word-vomity than i intended but i get too excited when i talk about this. it's like. good and interesting and important to me that ramsay's mama is not a blameless innocent victim who was brutalized and then did her best. she was brutalized and then she did everything in her power to make sure roose bolton got exactly what was coming to him. and she sacrificed her rape-baby to do it.

tysm for your question!

[greenbloods]

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"Everything," said Davos, softly. - ASOS - DAVOS V

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …" - ADWD - A GHOST IN WINTERFELL

"A true friend, our Lord Connington. He must be, to remain so fiercely loyal to the grandson of the king who took his lands and titles and sent him into exile. A pity about that. Elsewise Prince Rhaegar's friend might have been on hand when my father sacked King's Landing, to save Prince Rhaegar's precious little son from getting his royal brains dashed out against a wall."

The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away." - ADWD - TYRION VI

one of the biggest the narrative WILL punish you for is pretending that people dont matter, or that some lives are worth more than others. stannis has to realize this, that edric storm matters, long enough for davos to smuggle him away into the night. theon is currently undergoing his redemption arc, but it cant be complete until he admits his guilt: that his crime was no less monstrous because he killed the miller’s boys instead of bran and rickon. which leaves young griff. he recounts the supposed baby swap very lightly, not seeming to feel bad about it at all. it could be nothing, but it could also mean that (f)aegon will be punished for this in the future.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Parenthood + ACOK, JON VI

While I was re reading this chapter I noticed that there are a lot of mentions of mothers, fathers, parents and parentage. So, I decided to make a post and analyse those passages and what they tell us about Jon and his own questionable parentage (questionable within the story, I always treat R+L=J as canon).

The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children.

That's a very devastating imagery. When I read about a mourning mother in asoiaf my mind always return to Catelyn (the first mourning mother we encounter in the text). On the previous chapter, Theon decided to burn the miller boys and present them as the youngest Starks. Which means that sometime soon after, Catelyn Stark will mourn her - as far as she knows- slain children.

"The mountain is your mother" Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days ago. "Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won't drop you". Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he'd always wondered who his mother was, but never thought he would find her in the Frostfangs.

Jon used to be so sensitive on the topic of his mother. AGOT Jon would never make a joke on this subject. He has come a long way, to be able to casually joke about it.

"Were they your kin?" he asked her quietly. "The two we killed?"

"No more than you are".

"Me?" he frowned. "What do you mean?"

"You said you were the Bastard O Winterfell".

"I am".

"Who was your mother?"

"Some woman. Most of them are". Someone had said that to him once. He didn't remember who.

It was Tyrion the person who told him so, on Jon's very first chapter. He also told him to wear like an armor who he is ( aka a bastard) so the world can't harm him. At first, Jon couldn't always follow his friend's advice but after his personal growth and development we see him finally following that advice on ACOK.

The most important information we get on this chapter is the retelling of Bael the Bard. That man was once King-Beyond-The-Wall and he travelled to Winterfell where he pretended to be a bard. After performing for the Lord of Winterfell, the Lord asked him what he wanted as a reward. The bard asked for the rarest flower and next day the Lord's daughter was gone and in her place was left a single blue flower.

This story has several parallels within the asoiaf universe and all are linked to Jon (after all, we learn this tale on his own pov). The most obvious one is that of Jon's parents: Rhaegar Targaryen "stole" Lyanna Stark. And the blue flower they left behind is Jon himself. It's not the only time Jon will be linked to a blue flower as he's probably the blue flower on the Wall on Daenerys' vision in the House of The Undying.

However, Bael the Bard is also very similar to Mance Rayder. Both are Kings -beyond-The-Wall and both went in an undercover mission to Winterfell. Mance was acting under Jon Snow's orders. However, he didn't stole the Lord's daughter but Lord Ramsay's wife and captive instead (Jeyne Poole and Theon Greyjoy).

Finally, the chapter closes with Jon hesitating to kill Ygritte and eventually deciding not to do it. Before he makes up his mind, he tries to draw strength from being Ned Stark's son. The way the author decided to word it, says a lot:

He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

[lesbians4armand]

there are not enough silly theories about satin flowers that i like so here’s some (for the love of god do not take them seriously every single one is a crack theory i made up on the spot)

• Satin is Shae. they’re the same person

• Satin is Azor Ahai

• R + L = Satin

• N + A = Satin

• Satin is Edric Dayne in disguse

• Satin is Melisandre’s spy

• Satin is a Sand Snake in disguise / Satin is a Sand Snake in his own right, one of Oberyn’s bastards

• Satin is Littlefinger and Lysa Tully’s son (from when Littlefinger slept with Lysa thinking she was Cat)

• Satin is Jon’s twin brother and their parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna

• Satin is a wildling

• Satin is warging into Ghost along with Jon

• Satin was Robb Stark’s lover who was arrested by the Lannisters

• Satin is Euron Greyjoy’s bastard

• Satin is far older than he claims, not younger (immortal Satin?)

• Satin is a bastard of a Baratheon and a Targaryen

• Satin was Renly’s lover before Loras

• Satin is Tyrion’s bastard and accidental lover

• DaenSatin (Daenerys/Satin). They’re endgame

• Satin is decended from Daemon Targaryen

• Satin will be killed as a sacrifice by Melisandre instead of Shireen

• Jon falsely accuses Satin of the mutiny and kills him.

• Satin is a shapeshifter from Asshai

• Satin is Rhaenys Targaryen (daughter of Elia)

• Satin is Malora Hightower

• Satin is Beric Dondarrion

• The real Satin dies in the fight against the wildlings at Castle Black, ADWD Satin is a fake

• Satin is Arthur Dayne’s son

• Satin is Ashara Dayne’s ‘stillborn’ child.

• Satin is from beyond the Sunset Sea

• ASOIAF is literally the Bible from an alternate universe, and Satin isn’t just Mary Magdalene allegory, he literally is Mary Magdalene. And the Others are Revelations

• Val and Satin are siblings

• Robert + Rhaegar = Satin

• Satin is Tywin’s bastard

• Satin is Olenna Tyrell’s grandson (and sibling/half sibling of Margaery and Loras)

• Satin is the real Arya, so when “Arya” (Jeyne) gets to the Wall, it’s revealed she’s a fake. Arya is Braavos is also a fake.

• Satin is Littlefinger

• Catelyn warged into Satin before she died because she felt bad about Jon

• Satin is Sam’s trueborn brother (but was abandoned in Oldtown very young by Randyll Tarly because he wasn’t ‘worthy of being his heir’)

• Bowen Marsh is abusing Satin and forcing him to work against Jon

• Satin is Syrio Forel’s child who was abandoned when Syrio was murdered

• Satin was the baby born on Dragonstone to Rhaella, Dany was the baby born in the Tower of Joy to Lyanna, but they were switched

• Satin will kill Cersei, making him the younger and more beautiful queen

• Satin was one of the Miller’s boys that Theon supposedly killed

• Bran is warging into Satin to communicate with Jon from beyond the wall

• Satin is Doran Martell’s son (either trueborn or bastard)

• Satin wrote the Pink Letter

thats all for now

[a-thousand-eyes-and-one]

fine i’ll say it. i’m a believer in the theory that the miller’s boys were theon’s sons. i knoooow the ages aren’t right or whatever i just don’t care

[amuelia]

Omg I didn’t expect bran and Rickon to appear that was a jumpscare

it's actually the miller's sons! since Theon killed them as result of his rule at winterfell 😔

He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. - A Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

[aboveallarescuer]

While it’s great that the fandom makes comparisons between the Ned/Cersei and Cat/Jaime confrontations, I wish that the Dany/MMD confrontation was also included in this conversation. I do think that there are some intentional similarities between them (even if not as overt as the ones between N/C and C/J), which can be pointed out while still acknowledging that MMD is a more sympathetic character than the Lannisters in this comparison.

Dany and Ned both tried to help MMD and Cersei to no avail, partly because they remained loyal to the men (Drogo and Robert) responsible for these women’s sufferings*; both of their interactions address these issues. Dany, Ned and Cat all confront the people who murdered/attempted to murder their children. MMD confesses that she killed Rhaego, while Cersei and Jaime confess that they were involved in the attempt on Bran’s life. Dany, Ned and Cat all decide what to do with the people who killed/attempted to kill their children based on other children - Ned asks Cersei to leave King’s Landing because he’s worried about her children’s safety once he tells Robert their true parentage; Cat frees Jaime to exchange him for her remaining children; Dany burns MMD to birth her dragon children**. Dany’s and Cat’s*** interactions are related to key deaths in the book series - Cat releasing Jaime indirectly led to the Red Wedding because Tywin no longer had to be concerned about Jaime being killed in retaliation after the massacre was carried out; Dany’s exchange with MMD leads to Dany’s realization that Drogo won’t ever be the same as he once was (1, 2) and to her decision to mercy-kill him. All these deaths are crucial to the protagonists’ developments. Catelyn and Robb (along with Ned) had to die so that the Starklings could develop, grow and become the heroes that we need for the war against the Others; Dany’s losses during AGOT serve the same function - Viserys had to die so that Dany could become the claimant to the Iron Throne, Drogo had to die so that Dany could become Aegon the Conqueror with teats and Rhaego (along with Rhaegar’s son) had to die so that Dany could become AA/PTWP/SWMTW.

IMO, it especially makes sense to compare these three interactions because I tend to believe that Ned, Catelyn and Dany, the three major parents of AGOT, are also the main POVs of the book. Ned and Cat took the spotlight away from their children for a while because they were deliberately set up as Decoy Protagonists. That doesn’t happen with Dany because her parents and older brother/main role model were already dead before the book series began. It makes sense, then, that she is the only one who starts AGOT as an equal to Ned and Cat in terms of importance; in spite of her age, she’s already a wife and a mother. But unlike Ned and Cat, she also gets to be one of the protagonists of ASOIAF as a whole. This emphasizes how Dany has a special place in the narrative; by the end of AGOT, she’s the only protagonist who’s already both mother and queen in her own right (and who already subverts the Good Princess, Evil Queen dichotomy) despite also being a young girl, so she gets to be the main representative of her house in a way that none of the individual Starklings can.

*There are some key differences here, though: Dany had much less agency than Ned because she was a 14-year-old slave without any other option but to stay by Drogo’s side as long as he lived. Meanwhile, 36-year-old Ned was Lord of Winterfell and the Hand’s King. He had more power and agency to denounce Robert’s regime, but still chose to remain loyal to him even after Robert refused to punish Rhaenys’s and Aegon’s murderers, even after he found out that Cersei was a victim of domestic violence perpetrated by Robert, even after he found out that Robert slept with a girl “so young Ned had not dared to ask her age”, etc. Those things don’t make Ned a bad person, but they show that he’s a product of his time and place, something that antis don’t acknowledge in Dany’s case. And Dany learned her lesson with what happened to MMD: she freed all her slaves at the end of AGOT and would later start a revolution to abolish slavery once she was no longer under Drogo's control.

**To be sure, Dany’s decision is morally grey, but 1) any noble would execute their child’s murderer (Catelyn herself thinks she would have killed Jaime if it wasn't for Sansa and Arya), 2) child murder is framed in this series as a heinous crime (which we see with Jaime and Bran, Sandor and Mycah, Oberyn asking for justice for Elia’s children, Theon and the miller’s boys, Stannis's dilemma regarding Edric Storm, Dany’s dilemma regarding the child hostages, etc) and 3) if Dany hadn’t hatched her dragon eggs, she wouldn’t have gained the respect of Drogo’s remaining khalasar and would have been more vulnerable in case someone had attempted to drag her to live in Vaes Dothrak among the dosh khaleen.

***I didn’t include Ned and Cersei’s interaction here because it didn’t lead to any demise. Cersei was already plotting to kill Robert and grab the throne for Joffrey and Littlefinger’s betrayal of Ned had nothing to do with it.

[dalekofchaos]

If Rhaegar won au aka King Rhaegar and Queen Lyanna

In an au where Rhaegar won the Battle Of The Trident and killed Robert Baratheon(reposting my old au after so long do to harassment)

Rhaegar gets the upper hand in the battle of the Trident and killed Robert Baratheon

Tywin would have chosen to back Rhaegar once hearing the news of Robert’s death. Instead of the sacking of King’s Landing, the Lannisters would have slaughtered the Rebel forces. He would have kept Ned, Jon, Hoster and Stannis alive cause Tywin saw the value of them to keep the peace and Rhaegar never wanted the war.

Stannis would not play along, he would have been sent to the wall. Renly would have became the lord of Storm’s End

Rhaegar would have sent the medical aid to Lyanna , Lyanna would have lived

Arthur Dayne, Elia Martell, Rhaenys and Aegon would have lived

Rhaegar and Tywin would have ousted Aerys the minute they entered the red keep. Aerys would act like the grateful father and the old friend praising his old friend Tywin. But Rhaegar forcibly removes his father from the crown and Tywin orders Gregor Clegane to deliver the crown’s swift justice. Jaime’s honor would not have been stained

Jaime would immediately tell Rhaegar and his father about the wildfire plot and that would have been dealt with in a heartbeat. Rhaegar praises Jaime’s heroism and tells him that he owes him a debt that he could never repay. 

Rhaella wouldn’t have to be forced to flee to Dragonstone and would have lived to raise Daenerys and Viserys would not have lost everything and be force to become the beggar king, Viserys would have lived a stable and happy life. Daenerys would have a home, she wouldn’t have had an awful childhood, she would have her family and she would be happy.

Lyanna would have lived. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. As soon as Lyanna recovered, I believe she would have told Ned that she did not want to be in a loveless marriage with Robert, and chose to go with Rhaegar of her own free will and tell she fell in love with Rhaegar. Ned would have understood and knew that she couldn’t have possibly foresee what would happen, so there would be peace between the Targaryens. and the Starks.

A proper wedding. Rhaegar and Lyanna would be married under the Weirwood Tree and Lyanna would wear a crown of Winter Roses and a gown and cloak befitting a Northern Queen

Queen Lyanna is loved by the commonfolk, it took the high lords and ladies sometime to love her, but eventually the Wolf Queen wins them over

Rhaegar and Lyanna would be together and raise Jon and Rhaegar will also take care of Aegon and Rhaenys

Jon Snow would be Jaehaerys Targaryen.

Elia would return to Dorne in this case, since she already gave heirs to Rhaegar and they don’t live together as a couple any longer. As Rhaegar and Elia’s marriage was a political move, not based on love, it seemed it was a platonic love, not a romantic one. it was a mutual agreement that Elia would remain in Dorne, as Rhaegar feared for her health and safety and Aegon and Rhaenys would visit Elia every now and then in Dorne. Elia and Rhaegar kept correspondence often and remained friends. Elia living a happy life is more important.

Lyanna and Elia would become fast friends. There is no resentment from Elia nor jealousy from Lyanna. Elia is happy that Lyanna was someone Rhaegar could truly find happiness and Lyanna was fond of Elia. They would correspond frequently and even bring her son to meet auntie Elia.

Jaime would remain in the Kingsguard and Cersei would remain a lady in the court who would be betrothed to Viserys when he comes of age

Petyr Baelish would have never attained the power he had in the books and would have just fucked off in Braavos.

Gerold Hightower, Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Loras Tyrell would be Rhaegar’s Kingsguard. 

Rhaegar’s small council would consist of Tywin Lannister as Hand Of The King, Gerold Hightower as Lord Commander, Pycelle as Grand Maester, Doran Martell(of course Oberyn would go in Doran’s place) would be made as Master Of Laws in a way to mend relations with the Martells, Mace Tyrell as Master Of Coin, Paxter Redwyne as Master Of Ships, and Varys as Master Of Whispers.

With Rhaegar as king, there would be more effort into sending knights and soldiers to The Night’s Watch. Rhaegar knew The Others were coming so he would indeed take The Night’s Watch more seriously than his father or the crown ever did.

The Greyjoy Rebellion would still happen because Balon Greyjoy is a fucking moron. Balon believing Rhaegar was too soft to be king, rebels, and boy was he mistaken. The end result is the same. Balon’s sons are killed and Theon is taken as ward of the Starks.

Prior to the Greyjoy Rebellions, Rhaegar began to have dreams about the one eyed kraken blowing a horn to control dragons to burn the kingdom down. So Rhaegar took action and swiftly executed Euron Greyjoy in the Rebellion

Lyanna was a queen of action. She is there to lead the armies with her husband and king. Lyanna urged Ned to be more vigilant of The Boltons. And because of The Starks watching his every move, Roose Bolton dared not take FIrst Night with the Miller’s Wife, so Ramsay is never born.  

There would be no War of the Five Kings. Tywin is hand of the king, Cersei is content with  her marriage to Prince Viserys, Littlefinger never became as powerful as he is in canon. The realm is under the strong leadership of The Last Dragon. 

Rhaegar would have taken several visits to Essos to find the dragon eggs. Eventually the dragon eggs are found and Rhaegar would attempt to hatch them. Even though he was deeply traumatized by the events of his birth, he’d still want to make the prophecy of his grand-grand-uncle become true. Only Rhaegar would be much more careful in his attempt to hatch dragons, unlike Aegon V, who managed to burn down almost all of his family and himself included. when the eggs are indeed hatched, the dragons would be given to his children, Rhaenys, Aegon and Jaehaerys. But there would be one more. This dragon would be given to Dany

Something within Rhaegar is called to the ruins of Valyria. In this expedition. Rhaegar finds a Valyrian Steel Sword. Rhaegar names his personal Valyrian Steel Sword The Song For Dawn

Betrothals. Aegon is betrothed to Margaery, Viserys is betrothed to Cersei,  Robb is betrothed to Rhaenys and Jaehaerys is betrothed to Daenerys. 

Aegon and Rhaenys would love Lyanna and treat her like their own mother and Lyanna views them as her own children

Aegon would be the heir to Dragonstone. The Crown Prince Aegon is loved by the high lords and ladies and the common folk

Princess Rhaenys inherited her musical skills from her father. She plays the high-harp and fills the halls of the Red Keep with her beautiful singing voice.  Little Baelarion always dances to Rhaenys songs. 

Summerhall would be rebuilt and Jahaerys would be lord of Summerhall. 

Rhaegar’s children would get along with Ned’s children. Jaehaerys and Robb would be best friends. Rhaenys adores Sansa and Arya. Aegon loves his cousins. 

It took some time, but Ned and Benjen forgave Rhaegar and Lyanna and grew to love them like family. The Targaryens and Starks have been close ever since

During one of Jaehaerys visits to Winterfell, Jon and his uncle Ned would spend time together and in that time, Jaehaerys would find a Direwolf. Jaehaerys would have Ghost in this au

Due to his prophecies, Rhaegar would see that all three of his children and his sister are needed to save the realm. They would be raised together and would be well prepared to defend the realm for the war of the dawn

With Rhaegar as king, the realm is safer, Lyanna lives, Elia lives, the Starks do not suffer any deaths and the realm is prepared to fight the War for the Dawn

Art by chillyravenart

Edits by thelastdragonsnet 

[istumpysk]

Operation Iceberg & Operation Stumpy Re-Read Archives

Welcome to Operation Iceberg, a project aimed at ranking theories from George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series by their credibility.

Last update: Varys is a merman (theory #17)

Operation Iceberg

Stannis burns Shireen / Asha's pregnant / Daario = Euron / The miller's boys were Theon's sons / Curtain of Light / Varys has Tyrek Lannister / Tysha is the Sailor’s Wife / Olyvar Frey is Rosby’s ward / N + A = J / The Hound is the gravedigger / Lemongate / Oberyn poisoned Tywin / HS = HR / Tormund x Maege Mormont / Theon’s bastard / UnVictarion / Varys is a merman

Operation Stumpy Re-Read

AGOT:

Prologue / Bran I / Catelyn I / Daenerys I / Eddard I / Jon I / Catelyn II / Arya I / Bran II / Tyrion I / Jon II / Daenerys II / Eddard II / Tyrion II / Catelyn III / Sansa I / Eddard III / Bran III / Catelyn IV / Jon III / Eddard IV / Tyrion III / Arya II / Daenerys III / Bran IV / Eddard V / Jon IV / Eddard VI / Catelyn V / Sansa II / Eddard VII / Tyrion IV / Arya III / Eddard VIII / Catelyn VI / Eddard IX / Daenerys IV / Bran V / Tyrion V / Eddard X / Catelyn VII / Jon V / Tyrion VI / Eddard XI / Sansa III / Eddard XII / Daenerys V / Eddard XIII / Jon VI / Eddard XIV / Arya IV / Sansa IV / Jon VII / Bran VI / Daenerys VI / Catelyn VIII / Tyrion VII / Sansa V / Eddard XV / Catelyn IX / Jon VIII / Daenerys VII / Tyrion VIII / Catelyn X / Daenerys VIII / Arya V / Bran VII / Sansa VI / Daenerys IX / Tyrion IX / Jon IX / Catelyn XI / Daenerys X 

AGOT Summary & Foreshadowing: CLICK

ACOK:

Prologue / Arya I / Sansa I / Tyrion I / Bran I / Arya II / Jon I / Catelyn I / Tyrion II / Arya III / Davos I / Theon I / Daenerys I / Jon II / Arya IV / Tyrion III / Bran II / Tyrion IV / Sansa II / Arya V / Tyrion V / Bran III / Catelyn II / Jon III / Theon II / Tyrion VI / Arya VI / Daenerys II / Bran IV / Tyrion VII / Arya VII / Catelyn III / Sansa III / Catelyn IV / Jon IV / Bran V / Tyrion VIII / Theon III / Arya VIII / Catelyn V / Daenerys III / Tyrion IX / Davos II / Jon V / Tyrion X / Catelyn VI / Bran VI / Arya IX / Daenerys IV / Tyrion XI / Theon IV / Jon VI / Sansa IV / Jon VII / Tyrion XII / Catelyn VII / Theon V / Sansa V / Davos III / Tyrion XIII / Sansa VI / Tyrion XIV / Sansa VII / Daenerys V / Arya X / Sansa VIII / Theon VI / Tyrion XV / Jon VIII / Bran VII

ACOK Summary & Foreshadowing: PART I / PART II

ASOS:

Prologue / Jaime I / Catelyn I / Arya I / Tyrion I / Davos I / Sansa I / Jon I / Daenerys I / Bran I / Davos II / Jaime II / Tyrion II / Arya II / Catelyn II / Jon II / Sansa II / Arya III / Samwell I / Tyrion III / Catelyn III / Jaime III / Arya IV / Daenerys II / Bran II / Davos III / Jon III / Daenerys III / Sansa III / Arya V / Jon IV / Jaime IV / Tyrion IV / Samwell II / Arya VI / Catelyn IV / Davos IV / Jaime V / Tyrion V / Arya VII / Bran III / Jon V / Daenerys IV / Arya VIII / Jaime VI / Catelyn V / Samwell III / Arya IX / Jon VI / Catelyn VI / Arya X / Catelyn VII / Arya XI / Tyrion VI / Davos V / Jon VII / Bran IV / Daenerys V / Tyrion VII / Sansa IV / Tyrion VIII / Sansa V / Jaime VII / Davos VI / Jon VIII / Arya XII / Tyrion IX / Jaime VIII / Sansa VI / Jon IX / Tyrion X / Daenerys VI / Jaime IX / Jon X / Arya XIII / Samwell IV / Jon XI / Tyrion XI / Samwell V / Jon XII / Sansa VII / Epilogue

ASOS Summary & Foreshadowing: PART I / PART II / PART III / PART IV

AFFC:

Prologue / The Prophet (Aeron I) / The Captain of Guards (Areo I) / Cersei I / Brienne I / Samwell I / Arya I / Cersei II / Jaime I / Brienne II / Sansa I / The Kraken’s Daughter (Asha I) / Cersei III / The Soiled Knight (Arys I) / Brienne III / Samwell II / Jaime II / Cersei IV / The Iron Captain (Victarion I) / The Drowned Man (Aeron II) / Brienne IV / The Queenmaker (Arianne I) / Arya II / Alayne I (Sansa II) / Cersei V / Brienne V / Samwell III / Jaime III / Cersei VI / The Reaver (Victarion II) / Jaime IV / Brienne VI / Cersei VII / Jaime V / Cat of the Canals (Arya III) / Samwell IV / Cersei VIII / Brienne VII / Jaime VI / Cersei IX / The Princess in the Tower (Arianne II) / Alayne II (Sansa III) / Brienne VIII / Cersei X / Jaime VII / Samwell V

AFFC Summary & Foreshadowing: PART I / PART II / PART III

ADWD:

Prologue / Tyrion I / Daenerys I / Jon I / Bran I / Tyrion II / The Merchant’s Man (Quentyn I) / Jon II / Tyrion III / Davos I / Jon III / Daenerys II / Reek (Theon I) / Bran II / Tyrion IV / Davos II / Daenerys III / Jon IV / Tyrion V / Davos III / Reek II (Theon II) / Jon V / Tyrion VI / Daenerys IV / The Lost Lord (Jon Connington I) / The Windblown (Quentyn II) / The Wayward Bride (Asha I) / Tyrion VII / Jon VI / Davos IV / Daenerys V / Melisandre I / Reek III (Theon III) / Tyrion VIII / Bran III / Jon VII / Daenerys VI / The Prince of Winterfell (Theon IV) / The Watcher (Areo I) / Jon VIII / Tyrion IX / The Turncloak (Theon V) / The King’s Prize (Asha II) / Daenerys VII / Jon IX / The Blind Girl (Arya I) / A Ghost in Winterfell (Theon VI) / Tyrion X / Jaime I / Jon X / Daenerys VIII / Theon I (Theon VII) / Daenerys IX / Jon XI / Cersei I / The Queensguard (Barristan I) / The Iron Suitor (Victarion I) / Tyrion XI / Jon XII / The Discarded Knight (Barristan II) / The Spurned Suitor (Quentyn III) / The Griffin Reborn (Jon Connington II) / The Sacrifice (Asha III) / Victarion I (Victarion II) / The Ugly Little Girl (Arya II) / Cersei II / Tyrion XII / The Kingbreaker (Barristan III) / The Dragontamer (Quentyn IV) / Jon XIII / The Queen’s Hand (Barristan IV) / Daenerys X / Epilogue

ADWD Summary & Foreshadowing: On hold.

TWOW:

Barristan I / Victarion I / Tyrion I (summary) / Barristan II (summary) / Tyrion II / Arianne I / Mercy (Arya) / Arianne II / The Forsaken (Aeron) / Theon I / Asha (fragment) / Alayne I (Sansa I)

TWOW Summary & Foreshadowing: On hold.

[goodqueenaly]

I find it a bit odd that when theon says winter is coming Rowan gives him a hard look and says he has no right to mouth Lord Eddards words, I mean I get that she would look down on him for murdering children but the fact that she instantly gives him the look the minute he says something concerning the Starks just strikes me as odd considering she is of the free folk, any thoughts?

It’s possible that Rowan is originally from the North who was captured as a young woman on a free folk raid and forcibly married into the free folk and made part of that culture. Part of the bitter cycle of decline for the Gift is for northern women to be kidnapped and forced into marriage by free folk warriors; while that particular land seems pretty sparsely populated today (precisely because of the danger of free folk incursions), there clearly are still some people around (that old man Jon refused to kill came from somewhere). A woman raised in the North might well look to the Starks as the land’s ancient, ancestral protective dynasty, and honor the head of the House accordingly, even after years spent among the free folk. It’s even possible that one of the reasons Mance chose Rowan for this mission (or a reason Rowan volunteered) was because she would be that much more likely to be up for rescuing (the young woman assumed to be) Arya Stark. 

(Before anyone asks, I have no strong feelings on Rowan being that daughter of Mors Umber who was kidnapped in 270 AC. I have a pretty finite list of hidden/secret identity characters that I don’t have a lot of desire to add to, and frankly I think Rowan’s story is over anyway given that I believe Ramsay did exactly what the Pink Letter says he did to the spearwives.)

But beyond any in-universe explanation, this moment exists as sort of the natural sequel to the end of “A Ghost in Winterfell”:

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. “Theon,” they seemed to whisper, “Theon.”

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. “Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.” Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. “I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands.”

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. “… Bran,” the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran’s face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran’s ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller’s sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. “I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …”

A voice said, “Who are you talking to?”

Theon spun, terrified that Ramsay had found him, but it was just the washerwomen—Holly, Rowan, and one whose name he did not know. “The ghosts,” he blurted. “They whisper to me. They … they know my name.”

This is the moment where Theon really owns up to who he is, trying to finally resolve the complex and tangled identity crisis Theon has faced ever since he first came to Winterfell. The central theme for Theon in ADWD (and for his overall arc, but so potently in ADWD) is identity - who he says he is, who people believe he is, and who he actually is. When he is not Reek, Ramsay’s favorite subhuman torture victim, he is Theon Turncloak, the betrayer of the Starks. In this moment, however, standing before the heart tree - that most precious symbol of old gods worship - Theon finally identifies himself: he is not only “a son of Pyke, of the islands”, but “Theon of House Greyjoy … a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children”. Theon is more right than he realizes when he thinks that the gods and Bran’s ghost are listening to him and watching him (given Bran’s recent participation in the weirwood godhood), but he nevertheless genuinely believes that he is speaking directly to both - and in speaking to both, he finds that “[t]hey know me. They know my name”. Here he is not Reek or Theon Turncloak, here he needs no veiled epithet; in the eyes of the old gods, in the eyes of his foster brother Bran, he is simply Theon, the truth laid bare in a hallowed space.

So when Theon and Rowan have a repeat of this argument in “Theon I” (the first time, of course, that a Theon chapter bears his name in ADWD), and Rowan angrily brings up Theon’s supposed murder of Bran and Rickon, Theon answers her with a surer sense of his own identity. Rowan and her fellow spearwives had in “A Ghost in Winterfell” come across Theon confessing what he did with the miller’s boys, and now Theon twice explicitly denies Rowan’s accusations, saying “I am no kinslayer” and that “[t]here is blood on my hands, but not the blood ofbrothers”. He even smiles for the very first time in ADWD when Rowan threats him and calls him kinslayer; it’s a return to the person remembered by Arnolf Karstark as “Stark’s ward. Smiling, always smiling”. Theon dares to mouth the Stark words because he has accepted who he is - not a guiltless man, but one who loved the Starks, who never killed his foster brothers, and who is going to do right by poor Jeyne Poole (herself another child of Winterfell utilized as a political prop by Roose Bolton and a torture victim by Ramsay). 

[esther-dot]

I know many people ship Theon with Jeyne after he saved her life but I do have issues with this. Disregarding their ages as jeyne is still minor, I don't think they are in love. Jeyne did latch on Theon because she knew him from her childhood and she is seeing someone who she knew after long time. Theon basically projecting on her because they were going through similar phase. Jeyne seemed more grateful towards Theon considering not knowing he was rapist too. She deserves someone better.

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …" (ADWD, A Ghost in Winterfell)

If Martin is making a point about how no one cares about Jeyne because she is not the daughter of a great house, than as part of consistency, these miller's sons will need their justice too. I feel a lot of sympathy for Theon because who wouldn't after what he endured? But all the same, I do think certain actions preclude characters from happy endings.

I still feel like I don't have a good grasp on what Martin is doing with Jeyne, why he keeps bringing up the horseface thing, but I hope she and Sansa will be reunited and that she will be able to live in peace and safety thereafter.

I think the romantic connotations to Theon and Jeyne interactions are foreshadowing for some Jonsa beats, but Martin said that Theon is a foil for Jon, so I assume their fates will be the logical fallout of their different choices. I know that is criticized by fans, the idea that Theon's culpability isn't lessened even though he was a hostage, but it doesn’t look like Martin agrees. 

[patrocles]

hi, in your post about the greyjoys, you mentioned that its hinted that euron may have abused theon as well. where is it found in the text?

So this is largely speculation that may be untrue, but given what we know about Euron (and Theon), I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

(TW: discussions of CSA, childhood sexual abuse)

In Theon I in The Winds of Winter there's this passage:

Crowfood.  Theon remembered.  An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard.  He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood.  Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron.  He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice.

Theon at this point has been at a very fragile mental state, incredibly conscious of his memory and what he needs to remember, like his own name. After about a year of abuse and trauma, it's a struggle for him to keep his thoughts in order. But the second he sees Mors Umber and his eyepatch, he immediately connects it to Euron and is genuinely afraid.

Theon, as I've read him, is someone who both deals with repression as a theme throughout his arc (not recognizing Asha, the miller boys who might have been his sons, even the state of his own abuse and whether or not he's been castrated). But he also has pin-sharp memory in other regards- the siege of Pyke, the way the miller's wife clawed at his back, and even now after almost never thinking about him in the series- Euron.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Aeron and Theon were treated as similar parallels with Theon as we meet him so much like Aeron was in his younger years, now entirely changed. As Theon was entirely changed. And with Euron being a sexual predator in this respect (having also abused Urrigon as well as Aeron), Theon being targeted as the most vulnerable and weakest of his family does make sense (we know that he was often hit by his elder brother Rodrik as well).

Just like with Aeron, it's not about what was explicitly stated or shown (which is also reflected in how we don't see Theon again until he's Reek), but what can be inferred and read between the lines. What they choose not to think about, or the things they choose to remember that's more of a memory-adjacent; it's an interesting trick GRRM uses with a lot of characters and how they process or remember trauma. Aeron remembers the rusted hinge of the door of when Euron would come to his room, Theon remembers an eye full of malice.

If I may make a bigger speculative leap, Theon's psychosexual proclivities in general greatly suggest someone who's experienced severe sexual abuse in their childhood. With Theon, it goes beyond just a guy who likes sex a lot, but the way he seems fixated on the perverse and the degradation of women as an obession with reclaiming control and power (As well as just a purely disordered relationship with sex in general). (And if you're reading Theon through a queer lens, that's just an additional layer to this onion).

So yeah like I said, whether or not Euron actually abused Theon may not be explicitly stated in the text, but is incredibly likely given what we know about how Theon processes trauma and Euron as a person. But either way, this is just how I've personally read Theon so someone else may have a totally different interpretation

[mrsjadecurtiss]

A different ask! What do you think Roose actually feels about Ramsay? Just before the Red Wedding he talks very dismissively about how Ramsay could be executed for his crimes, but obviously he knows Robb's never gonna get the chance so maybe he cares more than that. But Ramsay (probably) killed precious Domeric? What does he actually feel about him and potential Walda baby(-ies)?

Thank you for your question :) I have divided my answer into points regarding the different aspects of your ask.

What do you think Roose actually feels about Ramsay?

In regards to the Roose-Ramsay relationship, some facts are important:

Roose did not raise Ramsay, and as far as we know did not interact with him in his childhood beyond the two times the miller's wife came to him after his birth. ("She was never to tell the boy who had fathered him." - Reek III, aDwD) All he knew about Ramsay was that he was his son, had his grey eyes, and was "wild and unruly" (the reason Ramsay's mom demanded a servant).

"Lord Bolton has never acknowledged the boy, so far as I know," Ser Rodrik said. "I confess, I do not know him." - Bran II, aCoK

Ramsay only came to the Dreadfort in 297AC (after Domeric died). This is extremely recent - for context, we have Dany chapters in aGoT taking place as early as 297AC, and the War of the five Kings starts at the end of 298 AC according to this timeline.

As a consequence, since Roose leaves the Dreadfort for the War of the five Kings, he assumed a paternal role for Ramsay in between 297AC and at most very early 299AC (The timeline has the battle of the green fork in January 6 and he'd need to travel to the south before that in the first place). This is only between 1-2 years depending on how early or late that year Domeric died (Shoutout to @blueagia who made me realize this timeline years ago).

Ramsay is violent and cruel, but not stupid (Roose even says he is “cunning” in Catelyn VI, aSoS). He was able to present himself as an ally to Theon in aCoK, and it stands to reason he might have given a salvagable impression to Roose at the beginning while he was testing the waters. Ned Stark is a just man who tried to execute the remote-living Jorah Mormont for slave trade; Since he never went after Ramsay, we can assume whatever Ramsay did during his time with Roose was discreet enough that word did not get to Lord Eddard, and so at the beginning Roose must have had no reason to complain too much about Ramsay's conduct either.

Eddard Stark had never had any reason to complain of the Lord of the Dreadfort, so far as Jon knew. - Jon VII, aDwD

"No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours." - Reek III, aDwD

Roose gets a legitimization for Ramsay as part of his benefit from doing the Red Wedding, showing that back then he still had an intention of keeping him as his son and heir. However, returning from the war in the south shows Roose how bad Ramsay's political decisions are when left on his own, including:

Leaving Donella Hornwood for dead, horrifically abusing Theon who is a valuable hostage and a potential ally, being unable to keep good optics and alienating his allies ("Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. [...] How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … " - Reek III, aDwD), abusing his wife "Arya Stark" who is beloved by their Northern allies, and more...

We see in the aDwD Theon chapters that Roose is still giving Ramsay advice and counsel (see again the Reek III quote), however he also appears to be despairing of him:

"I know." Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though … his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear." - Reek III, aDwD

We also see in later Theon chapters that he frequently holds meetings without Ramsay:

[Roose:] "The hall is not the place for such discussions, my lords. Let us adjourn to the solar whilst my son consummates his marriage. The rest of you, remain and enjoy the food and drink." - The Prince of Winterfell, aDwD

Lord Bolton was not alone. Lady Dustin sat with him, pale-faced and severe; an iron horsehead brooch clasped Roger Ryswell's cloak; Aenys Frey stood near the fire, pinched cheeks flushed with cold.  - A Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

[Lady Dustin said] "Roose is not pleased. Tell your bastard that." - The Turncloak, aDwD

Implying he is losing faith in his son, or otherwise does not trust him or value his input when it comes to political situations; a bad omen considering heirs like Robb usually sit with their fathers in councils.

My impression is that Roose initially adopted Ramsay as an heir for the following reasons:

- Sentimentality, since Ramsay is a son of his own blood ("I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes." [...] "Now [Domeric's] bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" - Reek III aDwD). As a member of a patriarchal society, Roose was raised with the expectation that he will continue his bloodline, and so likely has the wish to be succeeded by his son.

- Practicality, since Ramsay is already an adult, so he doesn't have to raise and invest in another child for years ("That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House." - Reek III, aDwD). [Speculation: For a new son, he would also have to remarry, and both his prior wives are implied to not have liked him ("The two before her never made a sound in bed" - Reek III, aDwD) while he also doesnt speak of them with fondness - so he might also prefer to be single and raise his bastard instead of having to deal with yet another unpassionate/unloving marriage (considering he's middle aged and uncharismatic, a young new wife wouldn't be thrilled about him), until he finds a marriage that provides him a good benefit (like the Frey money + alliance).]

- The belief that, despite Ramsay being raised a peasant and having violent tendencies, it is possible to "educate him" so that he becomes a functioning member of society (see again my point about Roose counseling him). Roose possibly initially projects some of his own personality on Ramsay (Compare this meta i wrote).

During aGoT-aSoS he must have still thought Ramsay viable, which is why he has him legitimized by the crown. He has not known Ramsay closely for long; This explains why he kept him around even though he is so unfit as an heir (it takes time to fully realize that), but also explains why he is so dismissive of him, as that short time of knowing him as an adult would not make him fond of Ramsay the same way one might be fond of a child they raised.

Roose then realizes after the war, as seen in a Dance with Dragons, that Ramsay is not a fitting heir. What this means for the later books is open for now... Will he abandon Ramsay? Use him as a scapegoat? Or still try to salvage him? I personally believe he is starting to see Ramsay as a danger, and is starting to think about how to best get rid of him.

Just before the Red Wedding he talks very dismissively about how Ramsay could be executed for his crimes, but obviously he knows Robb's never gonna get the chance so maybe he cares more than that.

My belief is that Roose is fundamentally selfish and worried about his own skin. While he has the goal to establish Ramsay as a capable heir, he prioritizes his own safety and reputation. By distancing himself from Ramsay's crimes in front of the other Northmen, he can't be blamed for them; by using Ramsay as a scapegoat for Bolton crimes, he himself can wash his hands from the involvement and won't be hurt if any crimes come to light. If he keeps pointing attention at how Ramsay is wild/cruel/treacherous, then the northmen are more likely to suspect/blame Ramsay than the "peaceful" Roose. Also, even if he cared for Ramsay, he would never openly admit it because it's something that could be used against him (same reason as to why he generally keeps his emotions under wraps).

If you compare this scene from aCoK (where Ramsay is believed dead) with the scene you mentioned from aSoS, you can see that to prioritize his own safety and reputation he will sacrifice Ramsay; but he will also defend Ramsay ("Yet he is a good fighter, as cunning as he is fearless.") as long as it serves his interests, of course while still keeping an emotional distance.

One important thing about Roose is that he does not always say the things he actually thinks; When looking at his quotes it is not only important to look at what he says, but which intentions he has with his words and what effect he wants them to have on the person listening. Compare this quote by grrm:

Lord Bolton may well have all sorts of things in mind. Whether or not he would act on any of those thoughts is another matter. Roose is the sort of fellow who keeps his thoughts to himself. - SSM

But Ramsay (probably) killed precious Domeric

"Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison." - Roose in Reek III, aDwD

This is speculative, but I personally believe that case is not as clear-cut as it is made to look. Poisoning Domeric does not necessarily seem like Ramsay's style; i often see people in fandom suspect that his mother is actually the culprit. I personally suspect the first Reek of killing Domeric - we know he once stole perfume, meaning he knows his way around the castle, and he also got looked at by a maester implying he might know the maester’s chamber where poisons could be kept. He has ample reason to hate Roose, who let him live with the pigs and had him whipped and later sent him to live with Ramsay, but also seems to have interest in improving Ramsay's status ("She made him, her and Reek, always whispering in his ear about his rights." - Reek III aDwD). He is also known to be inseperable from Ramsay, so if Ramsay went to meet Domeric, Reek would come with him.

Either way it could be that Roose just didnt initially believe Ramsay killed Domeric since it looked like he died from sickness, and only later changed his mind on this issue - note that Barbrey Dustin, whom he is implied to have regularly spent time with shortly before the quote about Ramsay killing Domeric, seems to be a believer that Ramsay was the murderer, so she might be the one who convinced Roose; And maybe Ramsay's bad conduct during the time of the war aided to make Roose believe her. Changing his mind on this could influence his decision on what to do with Ramsay come the Winds of Winter.

Or alternatively, if we’re keeping closer to the text, he just thought the positives of keeping Ramsay outweigh the negatives of him being a kinslayer; however it seems odd that Roose, who is so worried about his safety, would adopt a man if his first act he knows of was this treacherous and dangerous. Then again he frequently verbally states that he does not see Ramsay as a threat, which can be read in different ways depending on if you take it as a literal statement or as a tool to enact dominance over his dangerous son.

"All you have I gave you. You would do well to remember that, bastard.” [...]

“I know what he said. You're to spy on me and keep his secrets." Bolton chuckled. "As if he had secrets. Sour Alyn, Luton, Skinner, and the rest, where does he think they came from? Can he truly believe they are his men?"  - Reek III, aDwD

What does he actually feel about him and potential Walda baby(-ies)?

I think he would like to have a son that continues his values and manages to be a capable heir to continue the Bolton line. Domeric was the ideal son, talented and competent, and Roose invested a lot of time and money in giving him a great education. Now that Domeric died and all of this is down the drain, and Roose himself isn't getting any younger, he wants to have a new heir in a way that's the most convenient for him. It appears to me like he is currently weighing the positives of each option (Ramsay or new Baby), and it might even be that he has already come to a decision, considering how he is starting to grow frustrated with Ramsay.

"I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. [...] Ramsay will kill [all the sons she bears me], of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House." - Reek III, aDwD

In line with my earlier point about Roose’ words also being about the effect and not just the message, I believe the line about him being ok with Ramsay killing his sons might be very calculated towards the fact that Roose knows Theon is to report everything he hears back to Ramsay. If Ramsay hears this, he is placated, because it confirms that he is still the main Bolton heir - which means that he does not have to think about harming Lady Walda (because the sons are no threat to his position), and he does not have to think about harming Roose (because he just has to wait until he can succeed him).

Of course all of this post is based off the first five books, so the interpretation may change once the next book comes out or through a different reading of the lines.