#there's a reason why El didn't talk much to Mike after his monologue

[eclipsebyler]

As much as Will’s monologue in the van is his own feelings, it’s also true for El. Except he just got the wrong person. Instead of Mike: Max is El’s heart.

Because see, without heart, we'd all fall apart. 

Even El. Especially El.

These past few months she’s been so lost without you.

It’s just, she’s so different from other people and... when you’re different... sometimes... you feel like a mistake. 

But you make her feel like she’s not a mistake at all. 

Like she’s better for being different.

And that gives her the courage to fight on.

So yeah -- El needs you. And she always will. 

“You’re the heart.” 

And it’s Will literally painting a heart on Mike’s D&D character armor.

And it’s El literally doing everything she can to keep Max’s heart beating. 

-

Edit:

"She places a hand on Max's chest. On her heart."

The way they emphasized that on the Elmax script??? It just made the Max is El's heart agenda stronger. They are so canon guys.

[thestrangestthing89]

Mike understanding Will vs. Mike being oblivious

Evidence that Mike knows what Will is talking about in the van:

Will: "I didn't say it", Mike: "You didn't have to" - You're telling me that after they say this, Will is now going to have to spell out his feelings for Mike to understand? They wrote this line for a reason.

Mike has always been very emotionally aware of Will. We see that this season at the skating rink when it seems like Mike is ignoring him. He lists all these things Will's done (rolling his eyes, etc.). He pays attention to Will. We've seen this in past seasons, too. The only time he was shown to not be aware of Will's feelings was briefly in season 3 was when him and Lucas were making fun of him over D&D. The second Mike realizes he actually hurt him, he runs after him to apologize and he never does this again. Mike was so busy pretending to be all grown up and like Lucas he missed what was happening with Will. But he figures it out quickly and fixes it.

Will: "You make her feel like she's not a mistake". Will says this line when he's giving Mike the painting and pretending his feelings are El's. Mike knows this isn't true. Him and El had a fight in Lenora and El said "You looked at me like I'm a monster". This fight happened a few days before Will says this. Mike didn't forget. He knows what they fought about. He knows he makes El feel like a monster because she told him.

Mike: "I care for you so much". This line is so platonic and self-aware. She wants him to tell her he loves her and deliberately avoids saying it. He knows what she wants him to say. He blurted out he loves her at the end of season 3, makes a confused face after he says it, tries to awkwardly talk to her and explain that he loves her while avoiding saying the word and confuses her in the process. Then when she brings it up later, he pretends like he doesn't remember and says "that was just heat of the moment stuff". She says it back to him and he's confused and doesn't respond. Then he spends the next several months avoiding saying it the letters he writes her. This is again, very self-aware. It would be very easy to write this. Especially if he already said it out loud. He recognized at the end of 3 that he didn't mean it and didn't say it again.

He throws away 2 of her letters that we see. It's implied he isn't keeping them.

He flirts with Will twice in Lenora. Not to mention how flirty they were at the end of season 3 when they are packing up they Byer's things.

Mike's emotional intelligence has been on display several times throughout the series. Not only does he take care of Will but they have many heart-to-heart conversations where he is empathetic and understanding. He listens to Will. But we also see him do this a little with El in season 1. When they first find her he acknowledges that she's scared and gives her a place to stay and food. He didn't have to do this. It shows emotional maturity. He is aware of other peoples feelings. He doesn't register that Lucas is jealous of the time he's spending with her because he is honestly not spending a lot of time with her. I just rewatched season 1. Their time together is limited. So when Dustin calls him oblivious for not realizing why Lucas was jealous, it really just doesn't add up logically with what was actually happening. Which is why Mike doesn't register this. It's not obliviousness. Dustin and Lucas are misinterpreting the situation.

He looks like he's in physical pain giving his I love you monologue to El. He is more than capable of listing things he likes about a person. There is a reason Will calls him the heart. He connects emotionally to people (Will specifically) but he can't do that with El. He knows he is lying. All of his behavior up until this point suggests he knows this.

Him and El aren't speaking at the end and are rolling their eyes at each other. He isn't even attempting to talk to her. If he believed anything he said he wouldn't be acting like this. He would be trying to talk to her or comfort her when she's clearly upset. When they get to the cabin he just completely ignores her and walks ahead and leaves her behind at the car without a second glance back. This isn't obliviousness and a lack of emotional awareness. We see him 2 minutes later talking to Will and telling him she's upset she lost and then comforting Will about Henry. He knows and understands what people are feeling and what the correct responses are to emotional situations. He doesn't comfort El because he doesn't want to and he knows she doesn't want him to. He is aware of this. She's rolling her eyes at him, too. The only time they aren't stand offish with each other is at the hospital. She leans her head on his shoulder in a very Harry and Hermione like way. He lets her. It's what she needs in the moment. He's not confused by this or shoving her off. (Edit: I want to add here that Will is crying after he gives Mike the painting and Mike sees him. Why would Will be crying if he's talking about El's feelings? If Mike believes what Will is saying is actually El than he would have asked about what upset him because it doesn't add up. Will wouldn't be crying over another couples feelings. It only makes sense if he's crying about his own. Mike doesn't ask him what's wrong because he knows. He knows Will just confessed and it was hard for him so he doesn't have to ask. He also can't say what he wants to say with other people in the car so he gives Will space. Also just look at Mike's face in this scene. It says everything you need to know. Especially when you compare it to his face during his monologue to El. He's so happy when Will is talking to him and he never looks at El like that.)

Evidence that Mike is oblivious:

Mike is never actually SHOWN to be oblivious, we just have characters saying that he is. Dustin and Lucas say it in reference to the way that he acts TOWARD EL. Not towards Will. He doesn't respond to El the way that someone who has a crush on her does which is why they say he is oblivious. He doesn't act like a boyfriends is supposed to so they help him. They are realizing he isn't acting that way for a reason. Mike has never be called oblivious in reference to Will.

Finn says Mike is oblivious and clueless. Of course he does. He can't say that he knows what Will is talking about. It's a spoiler. I don't know why people take these interviews so seriously. The actors can't say anything. They frequently say things that aren't true because they were instructed to. Interviews are to promote the show. And the audience is in the dark about Mike's feelings so he can't say more than this. The oblivious excuse is so easy. It allows people to dismiss a lot of other things that are going on. It's superficial. But the show is never what it seems on the surface. They like to show and not tell. So if they are TELLING us that Mike is oblivious, then we need to pay attention to what they are SHOWING us. They have never shown us that he has no idea what's going on. They have shown us the opposite. It's a misdirect. They want people believing he's oblivious so that when they show us the truth it's completely unexpected. Most of the audience has the wrong perception of him. And honestly, a lot of the insistence that Mike is oblivious is coming from people who desperately want him to have romantic feelings for El at some point even if they think Byler is endgame. I don't understand this need for these two to be romantically involved. There is the bare minimum being done with the way they interact. They are being intentionally written to not understand each other or be good for each other and it's been consistent since the beginning. Just because one is a boy and one is a girl and they are cute kids doesn't mean they need to be crushing on each other. It isn't being SHOWN.

[starbylers]

Can we talk about how Mike ‘not being able to say he loves El because he’s scared she won’t need him one day’ makes no sense when you consider that for Mike this conflict spans two whole seasons, and there needs to be a consistent character motivation throughout.

Mike struggling to tell El he loves her has been, on the surface, his main conflict since s3.

In season 3, after blurting out he loves El, Mike brings it up again at the store. He tries desperately to get his point across, to make El understand ('I've never felt like this before', 'blank makes you crazy, like the word'). But no-one can deny that in this scene Mike is doing everything he can to avoid actually saying love. Now, what is the Mlvn excuse for this again? 'He's not good at expressing his emotions’. That's their running narrative post s3. (Let's ignore how that's not even canonically true of Mike's character and continue).

We come to season 4, and Mike is still chronically unable to use the word love, even when speaking about El and not to her. (Like this is clearly a deeply ingrained thing but I digress). Pre vol. 2, the Mlvn excuses are still related to Mike basically being emotionally unintelligent (his parents, his age, blah blah). But when Mike himself finally reveals the big reason, it's...'I didn't want to tell you I loved you because I was scared you won't need me one day'? Okay. Theoretically, out of context, that could make sense. So this becomes the new Mlvn narrative.

Here's the problem: both of these things cannot be the root cause of the same issue. It's one or the other: either he can’t say he loves her because he’s bad at expressing feelings, or he’s scared El one day not needing him would hurt more. This two-season dilemma is part of one series-long character arc for Mike. Mike in s4 is the same person with the same struggles as Mike in s3. Whatever his motivation for avoiding it in s3 (which was never addressed, it’s not like we got closure for that and then they just came up with a new reason he can’t say it) must logically be consistent continuing into s4.

Can anyone seriously tell me that Mike, here in this scene, was struggling to say the word 'love' because he was 'scared one day El wouldn't need him':

No. Of course not. He was specifically avoiding the word, and the most plausible explanation for his aversion (if we're ignoring Byler) is that Mike's just a kid and love is a big scary word. Bad at emotions etc. Which is why Mlvns and GA subscribed to that narrative, it seems obvious. But it cannot be right because Mike reveals the 'true reason' in 4x09. This is the canon explanation, finally—he's been scared she eventually won't need him. Except, that cannot be right either, because that reasoning does not align with his obvious (again, ignoring Byler) s3 motivation (love being daunting for a young teen) for the exact same behaviour. Like he literally uses the exact same pattern of avoidant wording from s3 in s4 (‘I care for you so much') and like I’ve said this is all meant to be one singular, overarching conflict.

If the initial 'bad at feelings' reading of Mike was correct, you'd expect the monologue to be more along the lines of 'I find it really difficult to express myself but I do truly love you, so this is me being vulnerable and brave'. Personally, I would've somewhat bought that. As a Byler I would've been like okay, it's kind of boring cliché storytelling but I'll admit defeat. But that’s not what happens. Basically what I’m getting at is:

Neither of these explanations can account for Mike’s inability to tell El he loves her in both seasons, so then by the logic of Mike having consistent motivations, neither can be true.

Which leads to the conclusion that there must be a different, all-encompassing, underlying cause for his heavy avoidance. Something that connects all the dots. I wonder what that could possibly be.

[queerxqueen]

don’t you think it’s kinda unrealistic for el to breakup with mike? after the monologue? i wish they would breakup but yk she looks happy with him and with apocalypse/vecna there’s not time for this teen drama honestly:/ she got what she wanted to hear,why would she leave mike? she just lost max and she wouldn’t like to lose even mike,it doesn’t make sense to me.

Alright, I'll bite.

As a treat, I won't even mention Byler because I strongly believe Mike and El need to break up regardless of what happens with Byler.

Mike and Eleven can and should break up in Stranger Things 5

Eleven's story arc is about independence.

I feel like we've talked about this extensively before, but Eleven's arc for every season of Stranger Things has been about learning about who she is, what she's capable of, and who she wants to be. From escaping the labs and making her first friends in season 1, wanting to interact with the world and be normal in season 2, getting away from Mike and Hopper to truly find herself with Max in season 3, and dealing with being different and regaining her powers in season 4. Millie Bobby Brown herself described season 4 as being about El learning how to stand on her own two feet (x).

I will also emphasize that El's growth moments are always when she is apart from Mike. Every season, they must be separated in order to grow. We never actually see them happy and strong together, because--

Mike and Eleven aren't actually happy/good together.

Let's ignore that they start their romance when they're 12 and she's been out of the lab for a week in s1, ignore that they then don't speak for a year in s2, before being attached at the mouth to the point of isolating themselves from their friends in s3--let's put all that aside and just talk about season 4. Their relationship as we've most recently seen it.

First, it's an unbalanced relationship. Consider Eleven's Mike Shrine in her room compared with Mike having nothing of hers, even crumpling up not one but both of her letters to him that we see him read. Think of how Eleven wants the day at the roller rink to be so perfect while Mike barely cares all day. Think of how, of course, Mike can't even sign his letters love while Eleven does.

Next, they spend most of season 4 lying to each other and feeling like they're not enough for each other, in other words, making each other feel bad instead of uplifting each other as a relationship should. We see Eleven thinking that Mike thinks she's a monster; we get Mike thinking Eleven doesn't need him and he's a side character to her superhero. We see Eleven thinking Mike only loves her with her powers, and then get a confession that seems to prove that that's true despite his best efforts.

They truly don't feel that they can be themselves around one another. Eleven feels pressure to portray that she's popular and normal. Mike puts on a facade such as the terrible airport outfit which was confirmed to be something that was written into the script, something Mike would never usually wear, to show that he is "trying to make it work in California." (x)

Does any of this sound like a healthy happy relationship to you?

But, you say, they just fixed things, right, so why would they screw it up again??? Well--

The monologue didn't fix things.

Where do we see Eleven responding to the monologue? Where do we see Mileven interact positively again to show their relationship has stabilized? They almost talk at the pizza place but they're interrupted, and we have no idea what would have been said. But since their big fight, which Mike himself said to be "a fight you can't come back from" they haven't actually communicated at all about where they stand.

I'm not even going to go into all the reasons the monologue is filled with inconsistencies or outright lies, or how it makes much more sense for it to be a desperate response, saying what he feels he needs to say to empower El, based on Will's lie that she needs him and he's the heart.

Because beyond the monologue itself, there's the emotional beat that the monologue fulfills: it's the beginning of the end, the start of the all is lost beat where ultimately, our heroes lose.

To address your point which I've seen often on Reddit:

"There's not time for teen drama."

Stranger Things always has and always will have time for some level of teen drama. This argument is kind of absurd. The Duffers described the core of Stranger Things in their MasterClass as marrying the ordinary and extraordinary, and they've shown that in every season, where the monster sci-fi plot is complemented with the emotional and growth arcs of the various characters.

The Duffers have also explicitly said that they've left certain things and relationships open-ended and unresolved, such as with Nancy and Jonathan and Steve. We're also led to believe by vol 2 that we'll see more of Robin and Vickie. So there's plenty of evidence of more so-called "teen drama" to come. It's quite literally the emotional heart of the show.

Lastly, your worry about El losing Mike?

Mike and El will always be friends and will be better off that way.

Nothing else to add here.

Hope this helps <3

[ladyfromaspookyforest]

Jancy vs M11

Stranger Things 4 and the Long Distance Relationship

Trying to learn the art of brevity. Bullet points, lez go. Jancy Mildew

Jonathan has a photo of him and Nancy on his dresser. El has a shrine to Mike. Note that Jonathan's photo is of both of them and El's photos are mostly just of Mike.

Jonathan is not being honest with Nancy about college. El is not being honest with Mike about high school. Both of these come in the form of letters: one withheld and one sent. One is a secret, one is a lie.

Jonathan: "No, because if I told her the truth, then she'd just throw her dreams out the window to come out here and be with me." Mike: "But what if after all this is over, she doesn't need me anymore?" Jonathan is worried Nancy will sacrifice her own happiness for him because she loves him. Mike is worried El is going to leave him behind. Opposite ends of the spectrum.

Jonathan: "Before you know it, we're just like my mom and dad. We're divorced, my kids hate me--" Mike: "Maybe I should have said something and if I'd said that thing, then maybe she'd want me there with her." Jonathan is stating that the consequence of conforming to what one party in the relationship thinks the other wants is a one-way ticket to the Joyce and Lonnie Show. Mike is talking about doing exactly that so he won't be alone.

Jonathan: openly discusses his specific lie to Nancy with Argyle. Mike: dances around what he didn't say to El while talking to Will.

Jonathan and Argyle discussing relationship problems: stoner comedy and farting. Mike and Will discussing relationship problems: [Tender, emotional music]

Jonathan: "[She's] incredibly ambitious and she's never done a single thing halfway in her life...That's why I love her." Nancy: "He's caring and compassionate. He's so protective over the people that he loves and he'll never back down from what's right...no matter the pressure, no matter the personal cost. That's why I love him." Mike: "I love you for exactly who you are. You're my superhero."

Jonathan: "Nancy, I'm sorry I wasn't here...Are we okay?" Will: "Does she talk to you at all?" Mike: "Not much. I mean, a little bit." Despite the fact that Jonathan's secret has still not been revealed, he makes sure he and Nancy are okay. Despite having supposedly given El what she wanted, Mike and El aren't really speaking.

Nancy: "Your application letter. Did it ever come?" Jonathan: "No, um, not yet." Jonathan's secret is still looming over them as they head into season 5, a conflict that will require later resolution. Mike's inability to tell El he loves her has been resolved. Will's lie to Mike about the painting, on the other hand, is still looming and waiting to come out (ha) in season 5. Dishonesty is a theme for both Jancy and Melvin, but one of them has been "resolved." Note that Jonathan's secret has evolved into a lie.

While I am biased, I'm trying not to lean TOO hard on my Byler brain here because that's not really the point of the post. It's about the parallels between Jancy and Mildred. So let's say Mike's telling the truth. His whole monologue was honest. The conflict between the two has STILL NOT BEEN RESOLVED. What is the reason for this? Even if we choose to interpret Mike not telling Eleven he loves her as his secret like Jonathan not telling Nancy about college is his, Jonathan is keeping this secret to protect Nancy while Mike is keeping his to protect himself. This still reveals the unhealthy mentality of Miller Light's relationship. Additionally, Mike's "secret" has come out, so there should be no conflict. Jonathan's hasn't yet, so conflict logically remains.

And if we choose to look at the speech as dishonest, this is Mike's act of shaping himself to his partner's desires. AKA his act of conformity that Jonathan spoke about earlier leading to them ending up just like his parents. Jonathan expressed that resentment would grow and we can already see that El is not satisfied with the outcome of this "confession."

Lastly, for the sake of fairness, I can't tell if there's a photo of Jonathan on here.

And there's no evidence of El in Mike's room. Mike and Nancy are the two characters in the love triangles and neither has immediately apparent evidence of their SO in their room.

EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that Nancy has a poster that used to be Jonathan's, but what I find a lot more interesting is the suggestion that the photos Nancy has on her walls and not on the corkboard are Jonathan's. That actually makes a lot of sense as we know he is a photographer and they look similar to some of the photos he has in his room. Additionally, I went back to season 1 to look at Nancy's bedroom prior to Jonathan and there are no photos like this present.

And while I had every intention of keeping this as focused on Mlvn/Jancy as I could and not Byler/Jancy, I simply cannot ignore the fact that Nancy and Mike have both posted Jonathan and Will's art on their walls. While the camera never focuses on these details like it does the photos of Jonathan and Nancy at the Byers house or the Mike Box in El's room, like Will's drawings on Mike's walls, the photos are background details that show how much the Wheelers' respective Byers has integrated into their lives. Moving on.

El spends the season getting to know herself. Nancy spends it getting to reknow Steve. This could hint at Mike and El breaking up for El to be on her own and Nancy and Jonathan breaking up to get Stancy back together.

However, I think there are two major indicators that this is not what will happen.

The scene when Nancy and Jonathan talked about why they love each other, providing genuine reasons.

A large part of S4 focused on the Mike/El relationship and concluded with a "resolution" of the supposed problem. A large part of S4 focused on the Nancy/Steve relationship, involving Steve laying out his desires for the future. In both situations, all cards are on the table (unless, you know, gay). There isn't a lot left to drive the dynamic in the following season (in a positive direction), while Jonathan's letter and Will's painting are still lies waiting to instigate conflict and subsequent resolution.

So once again, for the sake of fairness, Jonathan's lie blowing up in his face after their seemingly happy reunion could parallel El's lie blowing up in her face after Milkvan's seemingly happy reunion. However, timing really is key and Will's lie is still in play. It's really impossible to parallel Jancy and Marvin without also paralleling Byler. (I keep trying)

Anyway, that's that. Two lying long distance relationships on the verge of potential collapse. FTR I have no stakes in Jancy versus Stancy, I just THINK it will be Jancy. I am clearly biased towards Byler. That being said, even if Byler does not happen, Moldeven appears to be heading in the direction of break-up while Jancy seems recoverable, based primarily on the extent of the lies, the intent (once again, I have to tie Byler back in because Will and Jonathan both lied in an attempt to make Mike and Nancy happy while Mike and El lied to one another to protect themselves), and the timing.

LOL remember I said I was going to try to be brief this time?

[theyaregayyourhonor]

But why Max? Asked the girl and couldn't stop thinking about it ever since

In s4 why Max is the one getting Vecna'd (I know why but let me finish)

They could have write the hero cliché, because Mike already calling Jane his hero, so why didn't they personalized it? Jane was his hero because she saved the workd twice. When s4 Mike and Dustin talk about their girlfriend Dustin talks about how Suzie changed his D to an A, Mike brags about Jane saving the world twice. Why didn't he say ' Did your girlfriend ever levitate you?' or 'Did your girlfriend ever broke your bully arm?' or 'Did your girlfriend ever saved your life with her amazing powers?'

Why didn't he personalized it? I know first it doesn't seem much and 'My girlfriend saved the world!' sounds better but that's not what he says he says

'You do realize El saved the world, twice'

We know Mike's girlfriend is Jane so why didn't he say 'You do realize my girlfriend saved the world twice'

Because that would personalized it. But that answer, you can place it in an argument about superheros and it would fit. Mike talks about Jane, his girlfriend as she was a superhero, his favourite superhero, but you don't date your heros, your a fan of them

Also Jane in her letter write twice as happy, which is a lie;

I don't know about you but I find it intresting that they used the word twice, just this two time. Jane could've say 'just as happy' or 'happier' but she said twice (maybe I'm reading into it but still I find this interesting)

By s4 we never had the cliché of the hero saving the love intrest and that being a big plot point. Most of the time the love interest being saved is tied to a plot twist or a major clue or something we missed. It totally has the BIG BAD monologue of how they became what they are and in what and how the hero shaped them and similar to the BIG BAD. In s4 we do have this but with Max

Like I said they could've write any type of way s4 and it would've been a cute and romantic moment which makes moodswings endgame. If Jane ends up saving Mike the way she saved Max it would've been romantic and swipe away byler, it wouldn't leave room for doubt, but they choose Max

Why?

Because after Hopper she is the most important person in Jane's life. In s3 moodswings broke up and Jane before and after that spends her time with Max and she is living. She is happy and full and she just loves being with her. Not even talking about the fact that she has Hopper. Hop not-dies and she confinds in Mike but in s4 they have a break up (From, Mike was a break up you can't change my mind) and who does Jane finds herself thinking/worrying about? Max

In the knew-lab and after it her main focus is Max she is the one that Jane has a need to fight for. She willing to do anything to save her, not even talking about this:

That's what every BIG BAD said to the hero before they bring in the love intrest to kill them

And who does Vecna bring in? Mike?

No, the writers for some reason didn't had Vecna bring Mike in, it's Max

Also Jane face:

And after that Henry/001/Vecna went on about they creator how he is no monster but man, how Jane played into him becaming dimensiondemonlord and how similar the two of them and how they are not

So the writers ended up making the BIG BAD bring in Max instead of Mike, making the time Max and Jane spend together as the source of her strength to keep on fighting, not Mike's weak, half-assed monologue AND had Max and Jane reunite this way in Max's mind:

I am not saying that Max is more important to Jane than Mike. The writers do

Max and Jane relationship is deeper and more meaning full than what she has with her boyfriend and because of that Max was a target of Vecna

Because he wants his revenge on Jane

And he took Max

Not Mike

[willqayers]

MIKE'S MONOLOGUE BREAKDOWN

i went ranting about this on twitter a while ago but i thought might as well put it here. as i said before, this is a compilation of my own thoughts and also theories i’ve seen on the internet. let's start with the first section of mike's monologue

he doesn't know what to do at first, he's scared and he's trying to comfort el by saying he's right by her side, this might be me analyzing too much but i noticed the frame where the vines start to tighten more is when el hears mike speaking for the first time. el scans the environment searching for mike, but she doesn't see him, this also could be a symbolism of mike only being able to express his feelings whenever she's not looking (kissing her at the airport while wearing glasses, saying he loves her in s3 when she's not in the room and immediately regretting it after, him wearing vision obstructing glasses when they're sitting together in the “the piggyback” episode).

he doesn't know what to do, nor what to say, even though we saw in previous episodes what was the thing she wanted to hear from mike, even at that he doesn't say it on his own. not until will reminds him "he's the heart" that he has to keep going. i can notice even a bit after that he's still doubtful of what to say, and then he reassures her again making her know he's there with her, after that we can hear an audio cue indicating that the vines are still tightening around her neck. she doesn't really feel mike is with her, or at least, they're not on the same page anymore.

"and…" he looks to the side, the left side, to be specific. this tends to be a common thing when people don't know what to say, are thinking about what to say, are doubtful of their own words, and in some cases is a way to show the person is lying.

when mike finally says "i love you" you can see pain in her expression, the vines tighten again, and then you can hear and see thunder and lighting, as you might already know this is a common resource in tv media and films to indicate that the person who's talking is lying, and remember everything is on purpose and everything's there for a reason. as i could also observe while rewatching the show, we can see the same method being used in s2ep5 when joyce lies to bob about will's condition, will is possesed by the mindflayer and she tells him he's fine. el doesn't believe mike, or at least she didn't want to hear mike finally say those words when she's on the verge of dying, it doesn't feel genuine, it's like he's being forced to say them because he knows she might die and thinks that's what she wanted to hear at a moment like this. "i'm sorry i don't say it more" okay, then he knows el was right when they fought? this confuses me because then why did he get upset at her when she said "you never say it" replying to her "i say it". did he had a moment of realization throughout the episodes? or did he get mad at her and was defensive because he maybe didn't want to accept he doesn't love her anymore, at least not in the way he's supposed to love her.

"it's not because im scared of you. im not. i never felt that way" we can see some instances when mike shows clear fear about el's actions, for example at rink o mania when el hits angela, we can see his expression followed by an audio cue that indicates clear fear, and again in s1 when she pushes lucas with her powers, mike clearly scared and angry, saying to her "what's wrong with you?". then again we can see the thunder on el's side and the audio cue AGAIN of the vines tightening. she knows he's lying, she knows he's scared of her and she knows mike also lied during their argument when he said "i was surprised [...] i just didn't know what to do"

"but i am scared that one day you realize you don't need me anymore" we know how mike struggles with the feeling of being needed for those who he cares for, he even says to will in the previous episode that he's scared of el realizing she doesn't really need him. mike just wants someone to need him, he strongly needs someone who he can protect. but doing this, he forgets that el is her own person and can make her own decisions (throwback to max in s3, who was the one to teach el that). when mike and el met eachother, she needed guidance, protection, and mike saw in her that need and chose to protect her.

"and i thought that if i said how i felt it would somehow make that day hurt more" when he says those words we get a close up of will looking at him with a devastated look in his eyes, the directors wanted us to see his reaction for a specific reason. mike is using the same words he told him in the van and transforming them into a non genuine love confession. or maybe it can also be interpreted as will realizing mike and el's relationship isn't as happy as he thought it was, remember will being our unreliable narrator. he always showed us from his point of view that mike and el were a loving couple, maybe that sentence was the one who made him realize mike wasn't actually showing her how he really feels, because again, will didn't know that. it might be a stretch but i think it's worth looking at it from both perspectives.

"but the truth is, i don't know how to live without you" we were shown in s2 he was definitely able to live without her. yes, he used to tried and contact her before the whole thing with will happened, but in my personal opinion i think that was only because he cared for her as a friend and felt guilty that she was the one who sacrificed herself for their safety, nothing more. they almost didn't know eachother at that point and didn't have any kind of development whatsoever. we can see that on the first episodes but then he kinda just, forgets el even exists until she appears again at the end of the season.

"i feel like my life started that day i we found you on the woods" something that might be a stretch but i'll point it out anyways, the fact he says 'we found you'. if this was a genuine and intimate love confession why saying "we" instead of something like "the day i saw you" or "the day i found you", again, this is surely a stretch but there it is. mike's first impression of her was that she was a crazy person and he even wanted to send her to a mental facility not even two days after meeting her. he was definitely lying because it was not love at first sight. will had disappeared the day before that and that was mike's first priority, not even to point out he said that with will being right beside him, but then again, he might not have realized because again, he was telling el what he thought she wanted to hear. also, mike mentioned to will in the van scene that finding her wasn't fate nor destiny, it was just "simple dumb luck", so the contradiction in his choice of words give a lot to talk to about.

"you were wearing that yellow benny's burger tshirt and it was so big it swallowed you whole" the first smile we see in el's face was after recalling a silly memory, but the vines are still tightening around her neck because it wasn't actually a good memory, she had just escaped the facility that trapped her her whole life and i personally think that was the last thing she wanted to remember at that moment, especially after knowing the truth of what really happened. but then again, mike didn't know this so i don't personally blame him.

"and i knew right then and there that i loved you" again with the bull, i already mentioned this, but mike at first thought she was a crazy person, and we know for a fact that the writers of the show don't believe in love at first sight, as they stated it on a tweet in 2019, meaning that it couldn't be on purpose, they actually don't believe in love at first sight and the fact that they even used that trope as a part of a supposed love confession for one of their main pairs definitely means something. we also know that the only reason mike let her stay with them in the first place was because she recognized will in a photo and knew how to find him.

"i love with your powers, i love you without your powers. i love you for exactly who you are" throughout the seasons we only see mike referring as her qualities being a "superhero", "superman" (very curious choice of words since wonder woman existed in that time). there too few if not none scenes of him saying something that involves her actual qualities as a person outside of her "being a superhero" or "she saved the world twice". we can also see that el is crying, i personally think she was hoping that mike would say something different to her, she always thought that mike did love her for who she is, but she realized it wasn't true.

"you can do anything, you can fly, you can move mountains, i believe that" this is just straight up idolization. we never even see el do those kinds of things in the show. if you love someone for who they are you would have something more to say about them than only enlisting things around their powers. like, come on, they had cute scenes together, the snow ball scene being the first one on the list. why not mentioning their memories together? the whole reason mike and el fought in the first place was because she thinks of herself as a monster that doesn't belong, she realized that the monster was brenner all along, but she doesn't want to be seen as a superhero, and in that fight they had it was clearly seen that she wanted someone to see her as more than just that. this is definitely not what el wanted to hear at all, and you can see that on her face, she's tired of being referred as a superhero. she's being choked yeah, but she's also paying attention to everything mike says, pointing it out again that the vines are still tightening around her neck.

mike then says that she has to fight, vines tightening once again and again the thunder in the background, this is when mike's voice begins to fade a bit. it's only when she looks at max that the vines stop. necessary to point out, even though everyone knows, that max was the first one to actually see el for what she is, a person. she encouraged el to learn how to be herself and showed her that she can make her own decisions and choose her own future. we can also see how the vines start to tighten once more when she hears mike speak again, again thunder, which can mean she's purposely trying to silence mike and focus on max. she can then finally break free, it was max the one who freed her, not mike's words.

in conclusion, mike’s words did not help el at all, in fact it might have made things even worse. the last words he says to her didn’t reach her at all because she purposefully silenced him, it was the memories with max that helped her defeat vecna. mike definitely loves el, i’m not even doubting that, i just don’t believe the kind of love he feels is romantic by any chance.

[chirpsythismorning]

So crazy there is more than meets the eye with those 3. At first I was thinking: Of course Will is sitting away from the happy couple after his own feeling were used to fix them. Wonderful. Now I think Will must have chose to sit away from them to avoid further heartache and prepare himself for being back in Hawkins. In those 2 days, even if we didn't see it there is no way both of them didn't offer to swap seats or tell him to sit with them at some point to be more comfortable you know?

They were so unhinged for that 2 days later epilogue! Though, I definitely understand why they did it.

In fact, that time jump is probably one of the strongest arguments pointing to milkvan bones in s5.

Because if Mike's monologue was truly as satisfying as so many hardcore fans insist it was, then why didn't we get the aftermath of said satisfying monologue? Why didn't we get El opening her eyes, finally being able to look back at Mike meaningfully after this highly anticipated moment, kissing or even just embracing. And THEN fade to black and do the time jump?

(If you want to see this exact scene, but romantic, check out Stiles saving Lydia from 5x16 of Teen Wolf... Literally the exact same scene, but with a genuine romantic lens... After watching that, you'll realize how truly unromantic Mike's monologue was).

Giving us the aftermath of Mike's love confession would have nicely closed off the conflict related to him not being able to say it to El, going on 2 seasons now? But instead they're going to leave it ambiguous, and stretch it one more season?

Yeah... okay.

Though we know, because Will asks Mike, has she talked to you at all, that the answer is... not much. ?

And so I think you're right. I think in major part, Will made that choice to sit in front of them after the monologue, because from his POV, everything that happened at Surfer Boy was strictly romantic. It was Mike professing his love (at first sight) to El.

Him being able to face away from them, in turn attempting to stay out of their way and try to keep everything that just happened from completely destroying him (i feel like my life started that day we found you in the woods), by literally facing the opposite direction... As well as looking forwards, preparing for what is just ahead of them. It's tragic but it's also very typical Will Byers behavior.

Something that really makes me uncomfortable about the time jump, is the fucking painting.

The aftermath of the monologue, in regards to how El was behaving towards Mike, clearly contradicted what Will said to Mike about the painting El commissioned (obviously). So maybe Mike just felt sort of confused on the way back to Hawkins, which is why he likely didn't address the painting? Despite it sitting there right in front of them (with Will facing away, allowing him to not feel stressed about addressing it at least?).

And then of course there's El's POV to consider during that 20 hr ride. Honestly I think she was preoccupied with Max mostly, but also, she's not stupid.

We know she knows about the painting. We know she's been around for conversations where the people talking didn't know she was hearing what was outright being said, ie. the fight at rink o mania where Will mentioned Mike never calling AND Dustin mentioning how Mike is always whining about the Byers' line being busy AND El hearing Will say Mike's the heart during the monologue...

So, whose to say she didn't see the painting sitting in the back seat.? Could that have been the point where it sort've clicked for her? I mean, even though we didn't see her see it, or any of them agknowledge the painting during the epilogue for that matter, it would be as easy as a less than measly 10 second flashback to allude to it. I don't think that's what it would look like, but all i'm saying, it wouldn't take a lot to give that impression.

It would make sense for her to just keep quiet because she's also got a lot on her mind. She's probably feeling guilty for her own reasons with everything that went down.

I think in regards to Will she's probably preparing herself for a follow-up conversation about what just went down. Because I don't think she would bring it up to Mike first when it comes to the painting... If she saw the painting and it clicked, it would have to be Will that she brought it up to, I feel like?

I could be wrong, but even though El isn't well versed in social etiquette, I just can't see her directly mentioning the painting being from Will to Mike and not her, without at least talking about it with Will first, just like he did with her at Rink O Mania.

Will waited until the very last second, THEN he told Mike the truth, when there was literally no other option.

That's the only way I could see her doing the same in Will's case... Until there is no other option... In that case, it could be Mike confronting her about it and about how he doesn't understand why what he said didn't work if she felt all those things... I could see that being a scenario where she'd be like, talk to will. But still, I think even if that happened, she still would've talked to Will at least vaguely before that point.

Although I am looking forward to it, it's going to be sort of scary seeing El and Mike predictably falling apart early s5, and Will perhaps panicking and distancing himself even more bc he thinks he might have something to do with their problems and miscommunication in the first place ie the painting.

Now, when it comes to whether or not El or Mike offered for Will to join them in the backseat, I'm going to hope they did offer, at least once, preferably numerous times, but each time Will refused.

Otherwise I have to consider the possibility Mike didn't offer bc he was scared it would make his feelings obvious and he's already nervous El is catching on to him... Which Idk that feels odd and OOC?

I could however consider the possibility of El being annoyed/frustrated with both of them and just letting them wallow in their self pity on their own. Mike offering. Will refusing. El just rolling her eyes like, these fucking morons.

Also another reason I think Mike might have made the move to gravitate more towards Will near the end of the season was because they're now back in Hawkins and we know Hawkins isn't the same without Will. It could have been entirely subconscious on Mike's part, making his behavior in s5, of him transitioning back to his very observant self in relation to Will, a lot smoother.

But still, I fully expect Will to scram whenever either of them are in his sights, specifically near each other. Like I could totally see him being like Sorry! I'll leave you guys to it! Or even just silently making it obvious that's what he's doing.

And Mike being confused bc of Will and also confused bc of El.

The miscommunication is going to be miscommunicationing. I simply cannot wait!!

[bylerpoet]

monologue parallels

on today's episode of me being annoying and making everything about byler, here's something i thought of while rewatching this pretty little liars scene:

if you've never seen the show, what you need to know is this: caleb (door) and hanna (in the corner) dated throughout the majority of the show. they were each others first loves and are just the definition of a power couple. spencer (middle) is one of hanna's best friends. in the latest seasons there was a five year time jump, and we were told hanna and caleb broke up as adults. he then started dating spencer. still, both him and hanna had unresolved feelings for each other.

in this scene, caleb gave a monologue directed at spencer. yet, he didn't know that hanna was also there, listening. he talked about his feelings, about wanting to fix things, and reminisced about one specific anecdote from the time he first acknowledged his feelings for spencer.

i want to point out a few things about this scene that i feel parallel mike's monologue:

this entire monologue was brought by caleb being unable to tell spencer he loved her. spencer had told caleb he loved him first a few episodes before this, and then confronted him about him not being able to say it back. he then tried to fix things with this monologue, but he still never told her he loved her, which was the one thing she wanted to hear.

hanna was on the frame for the entire scene. this brings us back to multiple analysis on mike's monologue. if it was supposed to be an intimate, romantic moment between mike and el, why was will always on the frame? if we were supposed to think that caleb truly wanted to be with spencer and that his feelings were genuine, why was hanna always on screen? because it shows that she's always there on the back of his mind and heart. that's why he can't tell spencer he loves her. he loves someone else.

the physical barrier between caleb and spencer. just like there's a locked door in between caleb and spencer, there was a barrier between mike and el during his monologue, as well. a barrier they can't cross. el's presence and conscience weren’t even entirely present. one thing i've always found interesting is that el and mike never looked each other in the eye while mike was giving his monologue. and as we can see, caleb and spencer never looked at each other while he was giving his speech, either. not being entirely honest is easier if you can't look at the other person in the eye. no matter how much mike/caleb try to make things right with words, there's still a physical and emotional distance they can't cross. and even though we're continually shown this barrier between mike and el, mike and will were physically close throughout the entire monologue and might i add, the entire season.

hanna spent spencer/caleb's entire relationship trying to push them together. even though hanna knew she still had feelings for caleb and would always love him, she repeatedly told spencer that it was alright for them to be together, and even went so far as continuously trying to bring them together. because she thought it would make them happy. because she didn't want to ruin her friends' happiness by being in the middle. see also: will and the monologue, will and the painting, will pushing mike towards el.

spencer knew this was something they couldn't come back from. all throughout caleb's monologue, spencer was crying, mainly because she was hurting, but also because she knew things wouldn't work out between them. she knew it had already ended. what caleb was saying could've been true, but she knew he would never be able to love her like she wanted to be loved. she knew caleb's heart didn't belong to her. may i also add that right after this monologue, they didn't talk to each other for a while, until they broke up? does it remind you of something?

for obvious reasons, spencer and caleb broke up shortly after this, and hanna and caleb got back together, being endgame, as they should've always been.

[will80sbyers]

I saw that ask about the monologue and I hope you're not tired of talking about this. I feel like I don't know what to think about it and the details of it anymore because I've seen so many different takes.

Mike didn't understand that Will was talking about himself (which is what I believe). But if he's supposedly in love with Will why was he all happy to hear about "El's" feelings and smiled like that?

Or he did understand what Will was saying and then thought Will pushed him away by telling him to confess to El in SBP?

Also, is Mike aware he's in love with Will? Because if he's aware that means he consciously lied to El about his romantic feelings in the monologue. If he meant it platonically, is El aware of that?

If he's not aware, why did he smile at Will like that in the van? And why did he reject his hug at the airport?

If he bought Will's lies and felt reassured about his relationship, why did he hesitate for a second before saying ILY?

If he didn't buy Will's lies and wanted to break up with El before the monologue, does that mean he knowling lied to her by making it at least seem romantic?

I'm sure there's more, I just don't know how to piece it all together anymore 😫 Can you help? I believe in bi Mike btw.

Hello there! This is going to be a long one lmao I think I have already explained all that I think about the new season in my bi mike power point, but here's a recap:

Mike in season 4 has just started to understand that he feels in a different way towards Will, he likes him and this is making him panic a little because he's a boy, and he's confused because he does like El too, so he doesn't get what the hell is happening to him or why he feels so weird when he's with Will, he does not entirely understand his own feelings yet, he still thinks that what he feels for Will must be platonic (or at least he's trying to convince himself of this) but he feels jealousy towards him, he missed him more than anyone else, even El and he feels himself only when they are together, he wants Will in his life and at the same time he was having doubts about his own relationship with El because it's being more and more difficult to keep up the act with her, he feels inferior to El, so he tries to be more cool because he's scared that she will leave him… this doesn't make him feel good about himself, and he was having problems about saying the I love you to her because of a few reasons, he doesn't exactly know why yet - he was reflecting on it himself during the whole road trip with Will - that's why he says to him that he didn't know what to say to El, he didn't know exactly why it was so difficult for him to say it… the reasons are:

1 ) he was not feeling sure of feeling that and didn't want to lie to her

2 ) he subconsciously knows he has feelings for Will and that blocks him from fully committing to El

3 ) he felt that saying the I love you would have made him and El closer and that means that if El leaves him after that then the fact that he was vulnerable with her meant that it would hurt so much more ( this is what Mike himself tells her )

so Mike arrives in Lenora and he tries to be the perfect boyfriend for her even if it doesn't feel right, he is putting up an act and trying to be cool for El and be fun and not a nerd, he is at the same time feeling jealous about Will and scared that Will doesn't want him in his life anymore, his mind is split between them and that makes him act irrational and makes him accuse Will of not telling him about El having problems when she lies to him because in reality he is angry at Will for not reaching out more to him.

anyway… the whole bully thing happens and Mike starts to feel a bit betrayed by El because she lied to him for months, but he still likes her and wants to resolve their problems and keep that relationship even if it's not working out… so Mike makes some dumb comments at dinner but the morning after he feels like shit about it and he wants to resolve things with El… he goes in her room to talk and they have the fight

Mike acts defensive the moment El talks about how he can't say the I love you to her because he doesn't want her to know the true reasons because if she knew she would break up with him and he doesn't want that. He still loves her (platonically) and idealizes her in his mind. He does believe she is amazing and all of that, but he doesn't see her as El, he sees her as his super girlfriend… that's not true love but he doesn't get that yet!!!

El understands that he's not in love with her during their fight, so she decides to leave him behind and go to take her powers back and leaves a note for him that was basically a half break up note

Mike now is panicking because he's worried she's going to dump him again… he now thinks he should have just said the I love you to her even if he was not sure.

Will helps him calm down and makes him remember that when they see each other again they can fix things… but the more Mike talks with Will the less he's sure that he actually wants to fix things with her… he doesn't feel like they are meant to be, him and El… he doesn't feel like El understands him.

Will gives him something else to think about when he says that they have to go back to Hawkins and save their friends, he prepares but he also starts thinking about how much he loves Will, his best friend, and how much he's grateful that he has Will in his life. He decides he has to talk to him before they leave, he goes in his room and starts thanking him for helping and starts apologizing for how he acted with him

Why didn't he hug him at the airport? Because he was feeling awkward because he has a crush on Will, he's not completely aware, or like.. he is but he's trying to push that down and ignore it and stay best friends… he is terrified of things changing between them and thinks that Will is straight anyway lmao

Anyway they depart and start the journey and his feelings towards Will are growing, that's why we have the triple take in the desert, he's feeling so so close to Will and noticing him in another light (a gay light lmao) but at the same time he is still worried about El and he is still trying to be normal and has the idea of fixing things with her…

he talks with Will on top of that car and Will tells him something that makes him think:

Yes, he is scared that El will not like the truth - the truth is that he is not sure that he loves her. Mike doesn't get that Will was talking about himself too because Mike thinks Will is straight.

They act as a team when they go to Suzie and then, finally, they are now in the van:

In the van Mike is thinking about his relationship with El and he is feeling like maybe they were never destined to be together, he likes her but he feels like she's too much for him, he doesn't feel worthy and the relationship is not feeling as it should… he feels like El doesn't need him at all and… he is confused… he does like her but there is something that is not working and he is terrified of losing her from his life so he does want to keep dating her at this point

this is were Will should have shut the fuck up lmao

Will starts talking and gives Mike all the reassurance he needed to keep thinking that he can fix his problems with El.

Why does Mike look at Will that way if he doesn't understand that Will is talking about himself?

because he is having a reaction to Will's words, he is in love with his words, and also has a reaction to Will himself but he doesn't realize that fully in that moment, I think he half hopes that those words were only from Will but he believes Will's lie that they are from El even if it doesn't feel like it, because he believes Will would not lie to him.

If you notice, every time that Will talks about how the painting is from El he looks a bit disappointed and that's because what he really was trying to say before was that even if he doesn't want to lose her he is not sure about him feeling romantic love for her. When he smiles at the end of the speech that Will makes that smile is fondness and gratitude for Will being there for him, that smile is about his own love for Will alone, that doesn't mean that he realized he is in love with Will yet, that means that he is grateful for Will existing and is feeling feelings for him…

they go on and they find Eleven in the desert and in the reunion we can see a look of inner conflict on Mike's face when he looks at both El and Will, this is because he is feeling conflicted and confused. He likes El but has feelings for Will too and is now more aware that he has feelings for him… plus the reunion with El didn't feel romantic to him, he didn't have butterflies, he didn't feel like kissing her.

they go on and yeah, he's not sure but he feels like they have to talk and fix things, so in the pizza place he tries to talk to her, I think he has the intention of saying the I love you, but it's not working out, he's not feeling it… the words don't want to come out of his mouth.

they get interrupted… and boom!

El is dying, Will is telling him to say what he feels for El, meaning that Will doesn't have any feelings for him in Mike's mind… Mike does love El, he believed that El feels like Will said in the van and wants her alive and is terrified of losing her, so he starts talking but… he hesitates before saying it because he is forcing it out… because subconsciously he knows that what he is saying he is saying it in a platonic sense… he is super confused, but he wants to help so he starts his monologue and all that he says he means it… it just is in a platonic sense!

after he says it he thought that would solve all the problems in their relationship, but this doesn't happen, El understood that she doesn't feel in love with Mike when Mike told her he loves her, so now El is unsure on what to do next, she doesn't want to hurt Mike… Mike is heavily confused about how he feels, but one thing that he knows for sure is that he wants to be near Will all the time…

I think El wants to break up with Mike now but I don't think she is 100% sure that Mike meant that platonically

Mike believed Will's lie and that's what will cause drama next season because when he finds out that those were not El's feelings all the base for his own monologue for El breaks down, that will make him angry with Will, and he will want to know why Will lied… the love confession happens, Will is probably going to be in danger and this springs Mike into the realization that he's actually in love with Will Byers - they kiss, they live happy forever!

Hope this helps!! :)

[thestrangestthing89]

I think a lot of situations get interpreted differently based on who is saying/doing something rather than taking the whole situation or relationship dynamic into consideration.

When Steve tells Nancy he wants to marry her and have 6 kids the people who stan Steve think it's romantic. But Steve broke up with Nancy 2+ years prior and has had minimal interaction with her since then. And no one-on-one interaction until S4 (and even then it was minimal). If Jonathan had been in his situation it wouldn't have been considered romantic. If they broke up and didn't see each other again for years and suddenly after 3 days of reuniting he was proposing and saying he wanted 6 kids with her, people would be understandably weirded out by this. The action itself was awkward when you consider their relationship (or lack thereof). The circumstances made that an inappropriate thing to say. It shouldn't matter who is saying it.

If Mike's monologue to El was done by one of the other couples, people would assume that relationship was doomed. If Hopper kept saying generic "it was love at first sight" crap and wasn't able to give any specific examples of why Joyce means a lot to him it wouldn't be good. Hopper has known Joyce since they were younger and not being able to reference any kind of moment that meant something to him would of course be a red flag.

But I can't even picture one of the younger couples saying this instead of Mike. Not even Dustin and Susie who seem like they know each other pretty well even though we don't see much of them. They bond over science and movies. I think they could come up with a speech more specific than the one Mike came up with. And I know Lucas and Max would have done better here. At least the Lucas and Max of S4. They are both more emotionally mature with regard to the way they relate to each other. And if Lucas had gotten a chance to say something like this to Max when she was being Vecna'd he could have. Because him and Max have bonded and they have shared interests and actually like spending time together.

So I don't buy for one second that Mike's speech was just age appropriate because he gave better speeches to Will multiple times - the shed in S2, and in Lenora in S4. And Mike has spent enough time with El at this point that he should be able to clearly explain why he likes her with examples easily. Even a 5 year old can tell you why they like their friend. It may be with basic examples like they have the same favorite color but they can still give reason. Mike's example of her wearing a yellow shirt when they met isn't a reason why he likes her. It's a statement of fact like him saying it was raining and cold. It's not personal.

And that talk in Lenora - the flirty one with Will where he's checking him out and telling him how nothing is the same without him - would have 100% be viewed as romantic if Mike said it to El. Or if Jonathan said it to Nancy. Or if Lucas said it to Max. No one would doubt this for a second. But Mike has never spoken to El like this ever. He has never acted like he's attracted to her (she hasn't acted like she's attracted to him either). They don't have that kind of relationship.

But people's perception is different when it's Mike and Will so they bypass the flirting and make excuses. If you can apply the same action and dialogue to a different group of people the response should be the same. If Dustin had checked out Lucas and told him Hawkins wasn't the same without him I would immediately assume a romantic relationship was being planned there. Because the action itself is inherently romantic. It would also feel completely out of place and random since there was no build up, but Mike and Will have been acting like this with each other for couple seasons now. They have this relationship dynamic where flirting is now normal, but Mike and El don't do this. Not ever. They do not act the way other romantic couples act.

It's not the story being more age appropriate. They are 15 years old and they were separated from each other for months. They would be all over each other when they reunited. But instead we get:

- Mike being super awkward and trying not to get close enough to her to hug properly and avoiding eye contact at the same time all while hyper focused on Will, - Mike asking El if she is going to hang out with her friends right after they reunite (why don't you want alone time with your girlfriend Mike?), - El trying to get Mike to focus on her and her alone and completely ignoring that Will is there and missing his friend, - Mike completely missing the fact that El is uncomfortable around Angela because he wasn't paying attention to her, - Mike not even asking her what she's been up to lately or how she is (they talked about milkshakes for fucks sake. Nothing substantial), - Mike getting distracted when he's trying to look for her to focus on Will and doing the least to comfort her when she's upset. They haven't seen each other in months and this was their big romantic reunion? Again, with any other couple this would spell out the end. It would take a lot for them to come back from this. A forced I love you when things are dire isn't fixing this. It wouldn't fix any other couple either. The situation/circumstances are inherently problematic. No matter who it involves.

[alreadycrazystuff]

Did you guys ever stop to think that the Duffers could have gone an entirely different path with Milkvan's relationship and Mike and Will's friendship?

At the end of S3, El says that she loves Mike too (he also said it before) and Will doesn't seem to be upset with Mike anymore and they even hug at the end. So everything was fine!?!

So why was his reunion with Will so awkward? Why did they choose to have Mike sign his letters "From Mike" instead of "Love Mike"?

El getting bullied would be a good reason to make Milkvan even more closer, right? They could share something deeper, going through a real problem and maybe be more mature in their relationship! Instead of this whole journey that was Mike's monologues.

And the same goes for Byler, El's letter talking about Will's painting??? Will sacrificing his feelings??? Being third wheel again???? His fight with Mike at Rink Mania???? It would have been so much easier if they had just chosen that they spoke on the phone, or maybe exchanged letters, and that's okay, after all they're friends. Will was excited to meet Mike at the airport!!!

And finally, El still hasn't spoken to Mike after his "love confession"?? (I know she was upset about Max and for "losing" to Vecna, but still, she could have search Mike for comfort).

All this for what??? 🧐🧐

That's weird, the whole story of the three of them seems like a waste of time IF you think that Milkvan will be endgame.

Mike and El went through hard times and still didn't get close, and keep making the same mistakes (lying to each other). Different from Byler, they also went through difficult times and even though they distanced themselves, they still regret it and try to make it work.

Narratively speaking, everything indicates that Milkvan will be bones and that Byler does have great chances of being endgame.

Unless on the S5 they change everything.

[kackle]

Lol just had a mini conflict with some ppl on Twitter, imma bring up points that they made and my responses. I find it interesting on how they seem to be recycling the same points and then just cursing and insulting the bylers lol.

Btw, i tried to keep on a non bias agenda during these so keep that in mind.

WARNING: Very long post

Person One (talking abt a byler shipper) : I genuinely have no words.... Like the way they're all completely refusing to comprehend the monologue and Mikes love and care for El.... They would rather cut their right arm off than see an abuse victim finallv receive the love she deserves it's absolutelv sick.

Lmao the amount of inaccuracy from this take ^

My response: I mean they're kinda right? Mike had to be pushed and encouraged by Will to say those things in first place. He couldn't say it when El was literally being choked to death he had to be reminded of the painting that he thinks El commissioned. (she didn't) "You're the heart mike"

Person One (Talking to me) : If Mike didn’t love El, how would the idea that she thought he was the heart change that? The reason Mike needed help to say it was because of his own insecurities, not because he didn’t mean it. No matter what pushed Mike to say it, the fact of the matter is that the contents of the monologue are all about El, to El. A huge monologue. Mike doesn’t tell her because he thinks El helped with the drawing, he told her because Will made him see that his love is valuable

My response: Not what I meant lol. My theory is that he didn’t love her as much or in the way el wanted him to or maybe that he was falling out of love, and the way that Will described it to him resonated with him and helped him gain confidence to say I love you, whether he meant it or not. Imo, I think that Mike doesn’t love el the way he’s supposed to and he’s recognizing it and maybe feels guilty about it so saying “I love you” is like lying to her face. Plus I doubt it’s bc he’s insecure El has told him time and time again that she loves him. She’s told him in letter after letter after letter. Told him in S3 and kissed him while he just stood there with his eyes open not touching her, just being completely still. Which is..weird, considering he was making out with her at the beginning of the season. If he was really insecure and his whole thing about saying it and admitting his feelings would make the day that El realizes she doesn’t need him anymore hurt more is strange bc that just exposes him for thinking he’s nobody while El’s a “Superhero” El herself didn’t want to be called a superhero she wanted to be recognized as her own person, a normal person, like Mike. And those insecurities of hers are shown when she says she’s different, and she doesn’t want to feel like that. And yet mike keeps saying it?? In short he’s basically saying, “I’m insecure because I think I’m dating literal superman and I’m a nobody who just happened to find her in the woods that day.” That makes El feel like her and Mike are too different and just “a superhero” and nothing else, and mike can’t see that.

Person Two (Talking abt my first response) : In that moment it didn’t occur to him because his main priority was making sure she could breathe. Plus don’t forget the fact that Mike was about to tell her he loves her right before Argyle interrupted. He had already attempted to twice before but was always interrupted. + It does feel a little cheap though that Will had to prompt it. Idk I feel like that wasn’t the best writing. Mike should of said it on his own since he’s always felt it.

My Response: They could have easily made them cool and a power couple at the end, and set up for S5, make Mike have an actual good monologue, and a kiss at the end.. but they didn’t and it’s either they have no Idea what to do with them or they’re trying to set something up.

-not to mention the time skip, it happens right as the climax is finishing but we don’t get to see it? Why?

Person two: Imo the Duffers just aren’t that good at writing romance tbh. They thought him saying it while El was in danger it would be more impactful. Which in a way it was but Will shouldn’t have had to prompt it. Unpopular but all the couples besides Lumax aren’t written well this season. Even Lumax at points as well. I love them but most of time they are broken up and they just feel like friends. I know lovely dovey isn’t them but I honestly can’t tell if they were officially still together or not last season besides like the first episode.

My Response: They have so many relationships to fix up that I have no idea how they’re going to fix it all in 12 hours or less? If just a dumb decision on their part. Especially with Mileven, they could have fixed that relationship if they chose to keep Argyle out, but. They. Didn’t.

Person Two: I heard season 5 might be shorter maybe like 9 or 10 hours. Idk why they like to push everything to the last minute. That’s why everything feels so rushed. Jopper is definitely the most solid couple atm.

My Response: Exactly, and they have so much to repair with Mileven so I question their decisions and their writing skills atp.

Person 3’s response to a Byler: one thing bylers are going to do is somehow make mikes monologue about will.

My Response: Lol Mike probably wouldn’t have said those things without Wills encouragement just saying.

Person 4’s Response to me: He was about to tell her i love you in season 3 before he was interrupted and when they were eating pizza before he was interrupted.

My Response: You realize that the van scene was before that right? Also we don’t rlly know that I’m sure he was going to but the duffers didn’t do that. It doesn’t make sense to me, it would have felt more meaningful if he said it on his own, without being encouraged in that moment. Which is just confusing? Why save Mileven for later? They could have easily had that convo, have El know that he already loves her and have her fight on her own. They could have ended it like they usually do and have then say I love you and kiss.. But they didn’t? Imo, If they rlly wanted Mileven to be as good as ships like Jopper and Lumax then why? It just doesn’t make sense and neither does mikes monologue. They ended it off with, “???” With Mileven. They could have easily had a set up where Mileven was a cute power couple by S5. 🤷‍♀️

Person 4’s response: He opened up and that takes time? He’s struggled with his experiencing for opening up. If you haven’t experienced struggling with your emotions in a relationship, don’t speak on it. He took his time and that’s okay.

My Response: Lol I do, I hate talking abt my feelings personally. Which is why I kinda relate to Mike. But if I knew someone loved me that much, when they show it and tell me, then I would say it. And if my insecurities were causing the other pain then maybe we need time away. In a realistic stand point that isn’t healthy. You shouldn’t be in a relationship with someone who makes you feel insecure, especially if it isn’t their fault. That’s problems that you have to figure out yourself. And mike always wanting to be with El and being over bearing Like that is not healthy at all. I used to ship Mileven but the way they started to portray it in S3 & S4 is not it. If they want them together they shouldn’t have written it like that and waited all season to repair their relationship in the last season in which they plan to be Shorter makes no sense at all. If anything with the amount of ships they left in the dark ST5 might just turn into a drama romance scifi if they aren’t careful. Imo, Mileven is beyond repair, and if they do it’ll probably be poor writing, and undermines their characters like hell.

Person 4’s response: He was going to in season 3!!!!

My Response: Yeah but they never made that happen?? So why would they do that? To save Mileven till last season? That’s stupid and just causes unnecessary drama. The amount of Milevens I’ve seen change from wanting them to just be friends bc of season 3 & 4 💀💀

Person 4’s response: Well they’ve had Development and if you can’t see that, that’s your vision which I can’t change. The duffers worked really hard on this season and Probably wanted people to ask questions. He also said he’s loved Eleven since he saw her. Speaks for itself.

My Response: Lmao well that’s rlly bullshit and rlly questionable on their part. In S1 E2 they discuss abt what to do with el bc if you found some lil kid in the woods wouldn’t you take them in? Mike had a whole ass plan of what to do with her and to “Send her back to wherever she came from” And then “we’ll too totally be in the clear and tomorrow night we’ll go out and this time we’ll find will.” His main priority was finding Will and he was just being nice. The only reason why she was kept there was bc the “bad men” were after her. If he rlly loved her then he would have kept her in his house just bc he loved her. Not to mention the ST writers don’t believe in love at first sight and kinda clowned on it with Argyle and Eden in that one scene. So It makes u question if they’re bad writers, Or if Mike monologue’s was lies. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s both lol.

Person 5’s response to my first response: Don't you guys really watch the show Or understand how screen writing works Mike tried many times and he was interrupted by Dustin and argyle The whole monologue thing was designed Because it's crucial in the end Where el fights vecna It's all a pattern.

My Response: Yeah but It would have been better if he confessed without being interrupted and El could have gone into the fight knowing that mike loves her Just like Max knew her friends did.. But they didn’t. In which completely threw away her independence arc. She needed her bf to save her when they could have set it up differently, but they didn’t? Which is why I think if they don’t make Mileven break up or at least work thru their problems then that’s just horrible writing. They sacrificed her whole character dev for a cute scene.

Person 6’s response: I think mikes hug with hopper was pretty meaningful towards future mileven. they came full circle with that duo bc there won’t be young love dramatics next season. The resolved the dumb tropes from s3/4 (hopper not liking mike/Mike’s ILY) and set them up fairly well for s5 Aside from El’s likely internal self hatred after the max/ vecna fail. I’m sure after what he told her, El will consider herself the monster again or at least the one to blame for opening the gate in ‘83. That’s probably the only source of tension mileven will have going into s5

My Response: Yeah that may happen too, there are too many things going on in their relationship and too many conflicts to workout, considering that they left all of the other ships in the dark, Ie, Mileven, Byler, Lumax, Jancy, Stancy, etc. Also a lot of unanswered questions. Also considering that they’re aiming for only 12 hours or less, and the fact that they have to fit in the sci-fi / thriller concept is a lot to grasp. And they also broke from the pattern where one of them says I love you or kiss and the end.. That didn’t happen? To me if they wanted Mileven to be canon they should have stuck to the pattern that they had usually had instead of saving it with the next season when they have a lot of things to wrap up. Which honestly tells me they’re mainly going to be focusing on will and the ships in ST5. If they want to start another conflict in a season where all of the other ships are in a conflict as well is confusing and it makes me feel like it will be rushed and poorly written. I hope that they were planning this and can turn it around, but I don’t have much faith.

I wanna hear what you all think of these interactions and I might post more of these lol ppl on twt funny 💀💀

[occasionallykettle]

i just don't get why byler wouldn't happen after all of the byler scenes. what was the point of the byler scenes if not to advance byler's plot specifically? and why advance byler if it isn't going to be endgame? let's look at a few examples:

the byler rain argument in s3. you could say that this was to let mike tell will that they weren't kids anymore so that will stormed off to castle byers before destroying it, so that he could feel... those goosebumps flaring... and confirm that the mindflayer was back, but it could have been done in literally any other way. they didn't have to make a dramatic ass "break-up" scene between mike and will. will could have been doing literally anything else and have felt it. the GA doesn't even analyse/think about the byler rain argument like we do, so they aren't actively thinking "the byler rain argument was a really deep and meaningful argument that was essential in advancing the entire storyline of the stranger things universe", because to be honest, it didn't. it only advanced the byler plot.

literally every single heart-to-heart/interaction that they had in s4. including the van pizzamobile scene.

for starters, the argument they had in rink-o-mania. if the duffer brothers wanted to keep byler in the dust, then why explicitly and implicitly address it in their argument ("and what about us?" "we're friends. we're friends." for implied)? why couldn't they have just had will and mike looking for el?

when will was shown being visibly upset/pining for mike when he left to go give eggos to el. oh, milkvan is your endgame ship? what does will have to do with it then? why show him pining for mike right before milk&oreos biggest argument?

mike looking at the letter that el had left him. i feel like if this was to advance the storyline of finding el/milkvan only, then they wouldn't have will be there to comfort mike. it would just be mike staring at the letter or something.

mike apologising to will in will's bedroom. this scene was 100% not necessary if it wasn't to advance the byler plot. the GA most likely weren't even thinking about mike and will's argument at rink-o-mania, so it wasn't to appease the GA either (as if the duffer brothers would do that in the first place). they don't really develop the characters themselves as individuals either, just their relationship.

sitting on top of that car and having another heart-to-heart. it wasn't to advance the main storyline, because they only discovered that the pen didn't work after argyle tried to use it, not because of the heart-to-heart. it doesn't advance mildsauce either, since mike was left just as doubtful of his relationship with el as much as he was before he talked with will (also i would like to point out how adorable it is that mike was willing to confide in will about his relationship problems).

the van pizzamobile scene. it might have a greater effect in season 5, but as of right now, i don't think it has any use other than byler/anti milkvan. you could say that this was what prompted mike's feelings in the monologue (which temporarily saved the world and saved el and max, which was indeed very beneficial to the main plot), and you would be completely right. however, there is no reason for the pizzamobile scene to exist if the duffer brothers were planning on making milk&oreos canon. the pizzamobile scene literally made mildsauce's relationship worse, even the GA is aware of that. it exists so that mike can bring it up in season 5.

the scenes in season 2. i think it was essential to have mike be will's closest friend and not anyone else in the party for the love triangle in season 3/4 to work. we are shown really how close mike and will were and are in season 2, and then how that all changes once el arrives because mike is on his way to being a "normal and straight" teenage boy with a girlfriend. otherwise, couldn't they have just had anyone else in the party be will's closest friend that stayed at his house and at the hospital? you could argue that mike needed to do something in season 2, but his position could have been swapped with dustin's if they had adjusted a few things. but mike was the one that needed to be closest to will because 1) they needed to have the love triangle in season 3/4 (already mentioned) and 2) mike was already shown to "be the only one that cared about will" (quoting mike) in season 1, both explicitly and implicitly.

also, someone on tumblr said that if will had stayed just 10 seconds longer with dustin on that hill, then he would have been part of the russian storyline and wouldn't have had to get hatecrimed by mike for the entire season. and that begs the question: why didn't the duffer brothers just let will be part of the russian storyline with dustin? i don't think that anyone would have been against dustin and will becoming closer friends for the entire season if will didn't already have someone else in the party that he was "abnormally" close with. if they had adjusted the storyline just a little bit, then will would have had something more important to do than be sad, and it would have actually made sense, since dustin was just ditched by all his friends and will had been ignored all summer. and you could say that he had to be there to... again, feel those goosebumps flaring when the mindflayer was activated, but c'mon that added literally 3 lines, and max didn't move out of the way anyway.

so, in conclusion, there are so many goddamn byler scenes (i haven't even covered most of them), and making them would have been a complete waste of time for both the duffer brothers and us, the viewers. there is a reason for all the byler scenes and that reason is to advance the byler plot.

[sennqu]

i would really like to know what part of vol2 was a masterpiece beyond it looking and sounding slick and cool.

first off. the Vecna reveal as the big bad behind everything when nothing in the previous seasons even hinted that he and his family existed? Those murders would have become a town urban legend in no time!! Especially since it only happened 30 years ago?? And as evidenced by the writers keeping in the line "the murder house" when Jason and co. talked about it, other townspeople beyond Eddie's uncle did know about the Creels so why did none of the other born and bred main characters ever know this?? This reveal was an ass-pull of a retcon plain and simple.

Max ending up in the coma?? Completely diminishes the Dear Billy scene. Oh, music and human connection saves you from despair?? SIKE! actually it doesn't because we really just wanted to use this Kate Bush song for style points. Trauma does actually get you in the end wdym? then they used the song again, for what I don't fucking know, but certainly not for thematic reasons. Timing the lyrics to come back just as Robin throws the molotov?? ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS. And also we get to El to "revive" Max because El really is just that special. No one would know what to do without her!

Not even going to get into that indulgent close-up of El's feet.

Not even going to get into posing dead Brenner like Jesus on the fucking cross.

Lucas' speech ending with "normal is just a raging psychopath". Really?? Really?? Was this supposed to be a shot at Jason? The same guy who, upon seeing Max - a stranger to him- immediately tried to rescue her?? I will die on the hill that S4 accidentally created a compelling antagonist in Jason and just never fucking knew it. (i've cooled down on my thoughts with this one. still think the line was stupid as hell though and that jason was a lot more compelling than vecna)

Eddie dying for no reason, plot-wise or narrative-wise?? WHY? So he could die a hero? BITCH HE COULD HAVE LIVED AS A HERO. I didn't care for Eddie all that much but he should have died right after his guitar solo if he was already marked for death. at least that would have been cool instead of stretching it out like what happened

Not even going to get into how Steven, Nancy, and Robin were choking for what seemed like an hour or longer. Pacing was off the entire 4-hour runtime but that especially seemed egregious.

The El and Hopper reunion feeling like an afterthought?? It was so emotionally dull. They might as well have made them reunite at the start of S5. El going "I always believed you were alive" BENCH WHERE. YOU LITERALLY CREATED A SCHOOL PRESENTATION TO HONOR HIM AS A DEAD HERO. This one actually got to me the most because I live for loving father and daughter dynamics and I was rooting for them to reunite but what we got.... it fell so, so flat.

The entire two day timeskip in the first place. Absolutely abhorrent. Completely cutting into the climax, completely removing the falling action.

Hopper fucking beheading a Democreature in slow-mo. The entire Russia story arc was already very heightened but you know what. yeah sure why not. WHY THE FUCK NOT

Mike's monologue about loving El even when she's not a superhero when she is literally doing superheroism right in front of him. Mike straight up saying with his full chest that his life started the day after Will went missing. Will who is next to him as he's fucking saying this shit. Will who has done nothing else this season except to help mend his relationship with El.

Robin seeing Vickie again at a fucking weapons emporium. WHAT FOR? They didn't even rationalize this with a throwaway line that maybe she and her (ex) boyfriend were going hunting or whatever. Literally just did this so we can see Robin upset. Because really? We could have that scene in the gym WITHOUT THE WAR ZONE SCENE.

Whatever the fuck they did to Steve "oh actually I wanna have six kids" Harrington.

Will not even getting the dignity of saying his feelings. Was a simple last longing look at Mike as he says, " I really am stupid for falling for him, huh, Jonathan?" Too Fucking Hard? No need to say Mike's name, no need to say the word GAY (calling him a fag or a queer or a fairy was fucking fine though) to make it clear as day where Will stood. it could have been done so easily with how they set up the Jonathan and Will scene. And now we have to contend with people arguing that maybe he really wasn't in love with Mike at all or the even stupider take that maybe Will was actually in love with Eleven.

Brenner getting shot multiple times was actually very cathartic and I'm glad El left him to rot. But again this just comes back to why is El's storyline the only one handled with this much grace and understanding for her agency?

The Russia storyline just fucking ending with them being able to cross country borders no problem??? and no sign of Dmitry or Yuri at all?? Fucking sloppy.

Mike just... existing as El's cheerleader now apparently?? What the hell happened to him. They couldn't even make him a malewife right because he had to have Will push him into his monologue.

Speaking of monologues, fucking Henry got pages and pages of the most uninspired villain script I've ever had the misfortune of hearing in this year of 2022. Yeah yeah we live in a society. yeah yeah El is actually just so special she even created her own super villain what else is new.

S4 Volume 2 was a total let down and I am not going to be blinded by the beautiful cinematography into saying it was better than it is, than what it could have been. All style, no substance.

And as redditor timlest said it best:

[transmascwillbyers]

Okay, so, I just read the van scene script (or what we got of it so far, at least) and I think I noticed something interesting that could potentially point to a reason behind Mike and Will's actions in the rest of volume 2. Granted, I'm sure someone smarter than me has already said most or all of this already, so I could just be adding to the noise here, but if not I think it's a really important point- because, if we look at what information we have, it's very possible that almost the entire Metatarsals love confession storyline was based on a miscommunication!

First, I want to talk about the line at the very bottom of the page- I'm not looking at the script right now, so I can't quote it exactly, but it talked about Will knowing after his monologue that he just "ripped off the band-aid" with Mike- i.e., lost him. But why would that be true if Will thought Mike just took the confession at face value? If he just believed everything Will said about El, then that would mean that Mike thought Will just gave him relationship advice, no big deal, just dudes being bros. The only way this line of the script makes sense is if Will believes that, after he got emotional, Mike realized that he was projecting his own feelings onto El- so, Will actually thinks that he just came out to Mike (otherwise, why was that line put there)?

However, there's two other things that the script confirms. One is that Mike doesn't understand the meaning of Will's words- he doesn't get it- but also, Will doesn't understand something Mike had previously said or done. Being realistic, I don't think that we'd get a reference to anything gay from Mike's POV, since that would be a pretty big spoiler and I don't think that 8flix would want to completely reveal the big S5 plot twist to 200 people 2 years before the season comes out. However, whatever it is, it's still worth noting that this at least means Will is misinterpreting Mike's actions in some way here, and that could potentially be influencing his whole "ripped off the band-aid" idea.

So, what does this mean? Well, if Will believes that Mike hates him at this point, knowing Will and how selfless he is, he'd at least want Mike to be happy, right? So, he encourages Mike to confess, and for him to get his relationship with El back on track. Everything makes sense there. Mike's perspective is a little more fuzzy, but we do know three things about him-

He doesn't understand the real meaning of Will's confession, so he doesn't know Will loves him, and he DEFINITELY doesn't hate Will for anything at this point

He said something that Will previously didn't understand- we don't totally know what this is, and it probably isn't explicitly gay in script, but... Mike Wheeler I know what you are, let's be realistic here

Based on this whole confession from Will, Mike probably BELIEVES he wants Mike and El to have a happy relationship- even if it isn't something HE wants himself. And, since we already know how much Mike cares about Will, is the outcome here really that surprising?

So, what's the most realistic outcome here? Well, Will thinks Mike hates him already, but since he wants the boy he's in love with to be happy (no surprise there), he encourages him to get his relationship will El back on track, even it requires him to push his own feelings deeper. And since Mike misunderstood Will, thinking he WANTED Mike to confess his love to El, he did it. He didn't say his monologue because he loved El, he said it because he loved Will. The Metacarpals confession wasn't even about Metacarpals at all- it was about two boys who were in love with each other, but both not wanting the other person to know yet, leading them to both project their feelings onto THE SAME FREAKING PERSON.

Byler is endgame. I rest my case.