#tydeus

[ditoob]

Was doing some research on Diomedes and found out Tydeus was a pupil of Athena, a favorite of hers to the point she offered him immortality. He was a man blessed by the gods and yet, his actions disgusted the gods himself. In battle, Tydeus ate the brains of his enemy. An act so barbaric and out of line that it lost him the blessing of Athena.

Why did that happen? How come Tydeus decided to take that barbaric action? The act most certainly did not represent Tydeus’ character (if it had why would Athena be surprised and shocked?). Could one blame the gods? Striking Tydeus with madness? Or was it simply a fatal flaw in the king? A rage so unnatural and overbearing that it took control of him completely — a flaw overlooked by the gray-eyed goddess. A mistake that she would not commit again.

Diomedes himself is typically characterized as short-tempered and prone to anger, although he has far more self control and respect than any of the other greek kings (except for Nestor I suppose). He was mentored and sculpted into the man he was in the Trojan war by Athena herself, aiding him at all times, blessing him more than she did even Odysseus. She felt she owed the family of Tydeus, most likely treating them much like she treated Odysseus’ family in the Odyssey.

She most certainly succeded in preparing Diomedes to be such a great warrior, Aeneas comments that he was second only to Achilles in the greek army (although typically it is Telamonian Ajax who is said to be the second strongest greek) and Diomedes is most certainly one of the highest-trusted greeks in the army (It is he who is entrusted with the espionage to Troy, and it is he who is tasked with choosing who will follow HIM). Diomedes also has armor made by Hephaestus himself! An honor only appointed to Achilles. He was beloved by the gods, most definitely, and talented in all parts of war — talent which certainly came from his experience taking Thebes to avenge his father.

Diomedes shows incredible restraint, care, and control in his time in the war. He perhaps represents exactly what a greek warrior should be. Not burdened by the suicidal rage of Achilles. Not hindered by the constant lies of Odysseus. Not tainted by the pride of Agamemnon. Perhaps that is why he went on to be worshipped as a divine being in parts of Greece.

[sarafangirlart]

Y’know what no I won’t shut up about how stupid it that the PJO show has Athena abandoning her own daughter for not being “perfect” when she’s a ride or die and she’d support her heroes breaking all Geneva Conventions and the only time she actively abandoned a hero it was bc he committed cannibalism.

[doloneia]

odydio and boar parallels

good morning evening and night folks i have been pondering THIS for 12 hours straight and after writing what. appears to be a beautiful essay in my words doc i’ve just decided to throw all my thoughts at the wall instead. love that essay but it is becoming so very well-written academic work and i am so deeply unserious online.

anyways. on the subject of odysseus and diomedes and their shared boar vibes. the thing i kept coming back to was how boars were fucking TERRIFYING in ancient greece. to the point where the calydonian boar hunt (essentially just 30 dudes rocking up to kill a divine pig*) is a whole Event its a whole Heroic Tale. because you think 30 dudes can get that boar without a scratch WRONG two guys die and peleus stabs some other dude in the confusion. boars are ruthless and frankly overpowered as fuck little bastards in ancient greece and of the four i can think of with names at least TWO of them had divine origins somehow (calydonian and crommyonian).

and honestly? ruthless, terrifying as fuck, difficult for a horde of men to stop let alone some guy? got some nebulous relationship to the gods that give you strength? holy shit thats tydeus right there babey. he kills like 49 guys and sends the other one home as a warning. he literally gets married off of Boar Vibes dude. its his whole personality.

and so obviously diomedes, whose entire job for ten years is Bring Honor To Dead Father, is like well shit! time to adopt the whole boar vibe! i mean he’s literally compared to a boar in book V with unending strength truly he is the boar guy junior. he fights hordes of thebans/calydonians/trojans without resting, he cuts down hundreds of men without mercy, he gets athenas favor and despite how well he plays the part he is so tired. he’s ruthless, but does he want to be? he’s skilled in battle, but has he known anything else? he’s favored by the gods, but did he ever have a choice in that?

meanwhile odysseus. odysseus who is scarred by the boar he hunted as a child on his thigh. escaped what is otherwise certain death. marked so deeply by an animal so connected to divine rage that it transcends even athena’s disguise. it is this scar, that proved him equal in combat to that boar, that identifies him to his friends and family. that helps him retake his house and throne. just. the scar itself cements odysseus’ mortality but it also transcends any attempt at concealing who he is.

anyways putting all these thoughts together. i think that for diomedes the boar symbolism is something that doesn’t quite fit. its something that stretches and aches, like an old shirt thats too tight, because its not indicative of him its indicative of tydeus. but tydeus died at thebes, and diomedes has to live up to his legacy, so he tries regardless and it never quite feels right. meanwhile odysseus fights tooth and nail to survive, even when he’s surrounded like a boar by hunters and their dogs. sacks cities and kills hundreds of men and for all the help he gets from the immortal gods, odysseus remains wholly mortal. maybe the real disguise is how diomedes is the one scarred and odysseus is the boar, but neither of them look it.

[ilions-end]

heard some guys were gonna go conquer thebes. i'm sure they'll be fine

[ironspdr6700]

I'm up to book 2 of the Thebaid and Tydeus is officially my favorite character. You begin to understand why Athena is much colder towards Diomedes in the Iliad compared to Odysseus.

In my last post I teased that Tydeus was the original Warrior of the Mind but after reading this book I think it would be more appropriate to consider him an anti-Odysseus.

Let me explain… Polyneices and Tydeus arrive banished to the city of Argos, where they become friends (after trying to murder each other) and King Adrastus marries them to his daughters. Adrastus promises to help them recover their kingdoms, starting with Polyneices. Tydeus offers himself as an ambassador so that Eteocles (brother of Polyneices) voluntarily gives up the throne.

Now, this episode is taken directly from book 4 of the Iliad, Agamemnon confronts Diomedes:

"In the palace of strong Eteocles many Thebans were gathered at a banquet; but not even there, being a guest and alone among so many, was the excellent horseman Tydeus troubled"

But while Odysseus is a master of speeches and knows how to win over his audience with the right words, Tydeus is extremely aggressive, arrogant and rude:

"…not with rhetoric and composed serious, humble and measured prayer; but he is rude in language. And so, that loud voice, naked of flattery and with daring and with much pride, spoke like this…"

Eteocles obviously refuses and Tydeus can think of no better way to end this embassy than to threaten the king with death and, to add insult to injury, publicly remind him that his father was his mother's son (did I forget to mention that Eteocles and Polyneices are children of Oedipus?)

"What do I wonder about, if the crime has been inherited from parents and grandparents? What should be expected from someone who was born from such incest in a desecrated bed?"

That was a low blow, man.

[epigonoi]

tfw your dad died when you were like four and you spent the next ten years of your life training to avenge him and when you do avenge him you just move on to the next war. and then the next. all you have known is war. and everyone wants you to be more like your father. he is a warning of all that you could become. you don't remember him. you are your father's son. you know you are nothing like him. you both were pawns in the gods' games.

[argeiarenga]

a man's head

[prince-of-calydon]

slowly remembering how to draw these guys lmao

[regkatouargou]

Greek Epic Fragments(loeb classical library), Thebaid 9

[idamante]

Concept: Athena tells Diomedes about how his own father lucked out of becoming immortal

And of course, the idea that Athena is the one who named Diomedes himself

[ditoob]

Diomedes, King of Argos

[dnasplicers]

tydeus asking specifically for hippomedon (whos related to atreus) as he calls for melanippus' head. my fucking god

[rgraves1]

The Seven Chiefs Against Thebes by Angelique Mongez

The Seven Against Thebes

Now, the emblem of Thebes is a lion, and the emblem of Calydon, a boar; and the two fugitive suitors displayed these devices on their shields. That night in Adrastus’ palace, they began to dispute about the riches and glories of their respective cities, and murder might have been done, had not Adrastus parted and reconciled them. Then mindful to the prophecy, he married Aegeia to Polyneices and Deipyla to Tydeus, with a promise to restore both princes to their kingdoms; but said they would march first against Thebes, which lay nearer. (The Seven Against Thebes, The Greek Myths by Robert Graves, pp 377-383).

Adrastus was King of Argos, with two beautiful daughters, Aegeia and Deipyla, and was beset by suitors wishing to marry them. Chief among these were Polyneices, son of Oedipus, and banished from Thebes by his brother, and Tydeus, banished from Calydon after accidentally killing his brother while out hunting. Following a prophecy that suggested to Adrastus that he should yoke the lion and the boar together to solve his suitor problem, the King offered Polyneices and Tydeus his daughters in marriage. Adrastus recruited a further four champions to lead his army against Thebes: Capaneus; Hippomedon; Amphiaraus and Parthenopaeus, which, including Adrastus himself, comprised the Seven.

The attack on Thebes did not go well for the Seven. Capaneus was struck down by a thunderbolt hurled by Zeus as he attempted to scale the walls; a Theban sally then succeeded in killing Polyneices and Tydeus, despite Athena’s attempt to save the champion with a magic elixir. Amphiaraus was swallowed by the earth, chariot and all, while fleeing from the battle. Thebes stood, despite their king, Eteocles being killed by his brother Polyneices in combat and a prince of the royal house, Menoeceus, killing himself as a sacrifice to save the city. As for Adrastus, he also fled, eventually appearing at the court of Theseus in Athens, who agreed to march on Thebes and secure the return of the Argive dead for decent burial.

The Classical Greeks were of the view that the Theban wars were the Gods’ means of thinning out the Hellenic heroes, repeated for the next generation by the war at Troy. The myth of the Seven also provides numerous examples of the sacred king’s replacement by his brother/tanist.

[ilions-end]

i'm laughing at this image from an athenian krater showing athena taking athanasia (immortality) with her as she turns away from tydeus in disgust

the (beheaded, cannibalized) head of melanippus looks so pleased with himself

😌

[ironspdr6700]

Me, thinking to read Statious' Thebaid: I'm here to expand my knowledge of the Classical Literature.

My stupid brain obsessed with Homer's Iliad and the Odyssey + Epic the Musical: I'm here for Tydeus (AKA Diomedes' father, AKA the guy that Athena was going to make immortal)

...perhaps the great Tydeus came to stop, who in the same rigor of the insane time, also brought an ugly case to Argos: fleeing for the death of his brother, leaving Calydon and his father, Oeneus....

Me, talking with my brain: Be calm... Be calm... Don't cry as when you met Brian Azarello.

...the Calidonian was small...

My brain: OMG! TYDEUS WAS THE ORIGINAL SHORT-DYSSEUS!!!

[mechagender]

left (tydeus) is mine and right (staples) is my partners!!