#v: jugdral

[cavaliant]

“We always have a choice.” ((Deirdre for Sigurd?))

Sentence meme

"Of course we do" is his immediate response, yet Sigurd pauses for a moment, to better reflect on her remark. As impulsive as he's told he is, as much of a whirlwind as their relationship might be - it's something he wouldn't trade for the world, and he wants to nurture it in every way that he can.

"Deirdre, my beloved. You and I both have all the choices in the world before us, no matter what our pasts, others, or even 'destiny' may say. It is our choices up till now that have led us to each other...and if you wish it, it will be our choice from now on to pursue our future together, with our hearts as one. But know this - whichever path you choose, I intend to honour my vow to protect you, whether from fear or from even fate itself."

[wardencommanderrodimiss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr4X5xpzTNo

War Crimes Leif is an outlier and should not have been counted

I just skipped to the end of the video because I wanted to see the conclusion and I'm crying. The way the number shoots up when we go from Alm to Seliph and then triples from Seliph to Leif. Where's that one post about how Leif's army works. I love Jugdral. I should go play more Thracia.

[gascon-en-exil]

It’s telling that the Mad Kings father Aegon V aka Egg, who was very progressive for the Seven Kingdoms and improved life for the smallfolk and taxed the nobility, with him even wanting to move beyond his families love of incest traditions and let his children marry who they wanted.m Even he was desperate for dragons when he made too many enemies amongst the Houses and tried the same ritual Dany got right by chance to revive dragons, and all that did was get him, Dunk, and one son killed.

This is why I've never been terribly interested in the dragons in this setting; I see occasional complaints that the dragons are sentient and the shows downplay this, but the end of the day it doesn't really matter how intelligent they are when they're ultimately a tool to explain House Targaryen's power. If you step back and consider these stories as stories, then Targaryens using their dragons to set their enemies on fire is more dramatic and interesting than watching them govern like actual politicians - which is a big reason that Daenerys's seasons-long arc in Meereen feels so meandering and aimless for most of its run. It just then follows that you can't really look at the Targaryens as models of good leadership, because incinerating all your enemies isn't exactly sustainable conflict resolution.

See it would work even better if they had been more accurate to the books, as Varys plays a very Agarthan role of enabling Cerseis worst tendencies to ruin the Seven Kingdoms from within so that the planned marriage+conquest of Aegon/Young Griff and Dany would unite the Seven Kingdoms as saviors, but Tyrion threw that off as he wants the Seven Kingdoms to burn and helped push Aegon + Golden Company to attack instead of meeting Dany. So the likely result is the two Targs fighting.

I really don't like wading into discussion of what might happen in a book that may or may not ever be published. Flawed as it is, GoT is at least a completed work, and I approached it as such in that I didn't start watching it until after S8 had aired and I'd spoiled myself on all the big points. Not only did this undercut the showrunners' notorious writing by plot twists, but it also gave me a better idea of what to look out for as I progressed through the series: Daenerys going Mad Queen, Jaime always returning to Cersei, Jonmund, etc.

It's by contrast very hard for me to care about speculation over the incomplete source material, and how it's obviously going to be so much better because GoT sucked that badly. That presupposes that all of the problems with GoT are the fault of the adaptation, which I just don't believe knowing what I do of GRRM's writing and now getting to read about how HotD is at least examining some of the issues with its own source material like the misogynistic points of view and (partially) the burying of the gays.

Also, I've never been able to take the Agarthans seriously as villains, and certainly not schemers on the level of Varys at his best. Once you strip away the EDM and ballistic missiles and TRON lines the Agarthans are weak imitations of Jugdral's Loptous cult, up to and including the insidious political scheming.

[fire-emblem-supports]

Don't mind me, just felt like word-vomiting some general predictions for Heroes coming up.

Getting the upcoming summer banner out of the way first before silhouettes in a few hours prove me totally wrong -- we know that the harmonic lead should be Engage (unsurprisingly), and my money is that the rest of the banner will be Archanea (shows up on summer semi-frequently but hasn't gotten any alts in a while), specifically a F!Alear/Marth harmonic (yeah yeah males in a harmonic, but it's the most logical pair, and we've been due Summer Marth). I also think Goldmary is very likely since she's probably a ways off of getting a base form but is popular + easy appeal for a summer banner, and bringing back Archanea for summer means they can close out all of the female avatars getting summer alts by throwing F!Kris on there, as well. The last two slots are a bit harder to predict and could be realistically any male or unpopular female Engage or Archanea character, but I'm going to put my bet on Diamant (popular, appealing, and follows up Ivy last year and Groom Alcryst earlier this year) and Clanne (easy Tempest slot, Japanese voice actor was recently used for Leonardo, and follows up Spring Framme) for a total line up of Harmonized F!Alear/Marth, 5-star Diamant, 5-star Goldmary, 4-star F!Kris, and Tempest Clanne.

The summer Tempest should also kick off our Book V Returns series, with the first character/alt from it on the New Heroes banner. History shows we will likely get 2 new characters (ally and enemy) and 2+ new alts; I think safe money is on Mama Jotun and a new sage, with either being in either slot (Eitri successor as ally fighting against Mama Jotun's attempted hostile takeover, or Mama Jotun as ally fighting against Eitri's new form), alongside Reginn and Dagr alts, maybe something for Fafnir or Nott -- we have seen a recurring theme of characters getting revived with Laegjarn, Fjorm, Eir twice, and Freyja, but I don't really see a justification for that plotline this time around (though I would have said the same thing for Freyja).

The July or September New Heroes banner should be our Solm banner, with probably Attuned Timerra (avoiding our third Arcane Lance or Bow for a bit), Fogado, Panette, and insta-demote Pandreo. I've seen a lot of people predicting both Pan siblings getting demoted, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they demoted Fogado (as the least popular royal by a wide margin) or just went Abyss and kept them all as 5-stars because Panette is such an easy and appealing godaxe candidate. Regardless, we'll get either Griss or Marni as the GHB. (Anyone else hoping for Okuma Yugo Griss?)

It's hard to say whether the August Special Heroes banner will stay teatime or if they'll bring in a new concept, but I will say that teatime feels like a good option for the overdue Valentia alts as well as being a good place to slot in Eitr, since she didn't get in for summer unlike Nifl and Ymir. I could see a Celica/Celine, 5-star Mae, 5-star Eitr, 4-star Louis, and Tempest Boey lineup, though that's heavily copium-influenced. The safest bets are definitely Celine and Louis, but Celine could easily be paired with any of Hortensia (full Engage lineup), Lachesis (Engage/Jugdral), Annette (Engage/3H), Eitr herself (Engage/Heroes), or others, or be a standalone 5-star while someone else gets the harmonic/duo, or they could ditch the teatime concept entirely. Not putting any money on any predictions here, but I'll hold onto my Celica/Mae/Boey cope.

I suspect Brave Alfonse in August will open the floodgates for more Tatsuhisa Suzuki alts now that he's back in the studio, specifically Resplendent and/or New Hero alt Berkut (alongside Rinea and some combination of Nuibaba/Jesse/Deen/Nomah), seasonal Ranulf and/or Tibarn slotted into some random banner (desert? maybe New Year's Ranulf since Nidhoggr handles Year of the Snake for us?), and a Heroes child banner featuring Young Alfonse come next April. For that banner, I could see a line-up of Duo Fjorm/Kiran (a la Mark/Lyn), 5-star Alfonse, 5-star Veronica, demote Sharena, and Tempest Anna or Eir. Another possibility would be a full Book I lineup with Duo Bruno/Alfonse, but I have a hard time seeing Alfonse backpacking especially to Bruno, and he's already gotten his duo lead.

Conversely to teatime, I do think September will hold onto its tribal theme and wrap up with Ice Tribe, just because it's such an easy banner to fill. Duo Felicia/Flora is free (and a modern version of Felicia's mage tank/adaptive damage and/or Flora's DC tank niches from their OG versions could be quite influential on the meta); an Ice Tribe Gunnthra could have been recorded alongside Fee the year prior; and other icy or ice-wielding characters like Ninian, Nils, Marianne, Bruno, Brunnya, Innes, etc. give a solid lineup.

Getting Felicia's voice actress in the studio also sets up the potential for Resplendent Felicia, Resplendent or random seasonal Oboro, and random seasonals for Brunnya (if not on the Ice Tribe banner) and Sue, all of whom I could see happening pretty shortly afterwards.

I do think we'll get another Ivy alt before the year is out, and my money is on December: either Legendary Ivy (taking the same slot as Azura, Celica, Lilina, F!Byleth, F!Shez, and Camilla before her) or Winter Ivy. I'd say her main competition for the December 8% slot is Emblem Lyn, who would also fit the current cycle of Emblem/Mythic/Legendary (though who knows how long IS will hold to that anyway). If that's the case, then a fully Engage winter lineup seems like the best bet to follow the 3H lords last year anyway -- I don't think it'll be all royals (especially if we do get Summer Diamant), but I could see Duo Lumera or Veyle with M!Alear (following up Summer F!Alear like Winter M!Robin, New Year's M!Corrin, and Halloween Sothis/M!Byleth before him) where either could be the lead, 5-star Ivy, 5-star the other of Lumera or Veyle, 5-star or 4-star Alfred (depending if they want to go no demotes like last year), and Tempest Vander.

I saw someone predict a Double Mythic Hero banner this month to knock out both Eikthyrnir and Heidrun, followed by Hraesvelgr in probably October and Laeradr/Nidhoggr sharing in November; that makes the most sense to me given the amount of units left to get through, and I don't really see them skipping over anyone this time a la Njordr/Elm/Fafnir/Freyr (all five are relatively well-received, actively involved in the plot, and all but Heidrun have been/should be fought, and Heidrun's definitely not getting skipped). That does mean we're probably getting no more mythics from regular games this year (rip Athos), nor Fafnir a la Freyr last year (maybe on the next Fallen banner buddy), but that's sort of a given at this point even if Eikthyrnir and/or Laeradr get the chop. August should be a red legendary (M!Shez or Diamant?) and September should be a blue or green emblem (Lucina or Corrin?).

So to sum up:

July Seasonal - Engage/Archanea Summer

Harmonized F!Alear/Marth

5-star Diamant

5-star Goldmary

Demote F!Kris

Tempest Clanne

July or September New Heroes - Book V Returns + possible Solm lineup

Rearmed/Attuned Mama Jotun or New Dvergr Sage, or Rearmed/Attuned/Ascended Reginn

Attuned Timerra

5-star or demote Fogado

5-star or demote Panette

Instant demote Pandreo

GHB Griss or Marni

July 8% - Double Mythic

Eikthyrnir

Heidrun

August Seasonal - Valentia/Engage/Heroes Teatime

Harmonized Celica/Celine

5-star Mae

5-star Eitr

4-star Louis

Tempest Boey

August 8% - Legendary

Red Dagger/Sword M!Shez or Sword Diamant

September Seasonal - Ice Tribe

Duo Felicia/Flora

5-star Gunnthra

Any of Ninian, Nils, Marianne, Bruno, Brunnya, Innes, etc.

September New Heroes - Book V Returns if not with Solm

Rearmed/Attuned/Ascended Reginn

Possibly Attuned Fafnir

September 8% - Emblem

Lance/Blue Bow/Green Bow Lucina or Blue Dragon/Green Dragon F!Corrin

October New Heroes - Book V Returns + other game

Rearmed/Attuned/Ascended Dagr

Possibly Attuned Nott

October 8% - Mythic

Hraesvelgr

November New Heroes - Book V Returns + other game

Rearmed/Attuned Mama Jotun or new form of Eitri

November 8% - Double Mythic

Nidhoggr

Laeradr

December Seasonal - Engage Christmas

Duo M!Alear with Veyle or Lumera (any could be lead)

5-star Ivy (if not Legendary)

5-star Veyle or Lumera

5-star or demote Alfred

Tempest Vander

December 8% - Legendary or Emblem

Tome Ivy or Bow Emblem Lyn

April Seasonal - Heroes Children

Duo Fjorm/Kiran

5-star Alfonse

5-star Veronica

Demote Sharena

Tempest Anna or Eir

Future New Heroes - Valentia

Rearmed/Attuned/Ascended Berkut

5-star Rinea

Nuibaba, Jesse, Deen, and/or Nomah split other 5-star, demote, and GHB slots

Other Future Seasonals/Resplendents

Resplendent Berkut

Seasonal (New Year's or Desert?) Ranulf

Seasonal (Desert?) Tibarn

Resplendent Felicia

Resplendent and/or Seasonal (Desert or Spring?) Oboro

Seasonal (Desert, Spring, or Bridal?) Sue

Seasonal (Desert, Spring, or Bridal?) Brunnya

[ofimitations]

@sireneia : dew

“Hey, that was pretty slick!”

Xane beamed up at the boy, one hand pulling insistently on the stranger’s sleeve. He’d caught an interesting one today! Usually humans could be so boring, but to Xane’s delight, he’d just watched this one nab the purse right off another.

And no one was the wiser, at least, not yet. Xane thought it was thrilling. “Hey,” he said again, without a thought for their surroundings. “You gotta show me! I wanna do that too -- takin’ things all secret. C’mon, please?”

[inkycompass]

The identical backstories between Faris and Brigid will never not be hilarious to me.

Neither will the divergence in reaction once the younger sister actually gives them the news.

[randomnameless]

I'm convinced. These Edelgard stans do not have an ability to analyze media and are from another planet. How can you mess up basic FE facts that bad. I haven't even played all the games and I know the humans started the war in FE7. This is on the level of forgive me for the comparison, the 2020 election in America was rigged and everything is Antifa's fault. Ignoring basic facts. What the absolute f?

I usually try to avoid posting anything about politics on this blog, since it's fandom oriented blog but -

I heavily suspect there's a lot of bad faith takes at play here, or heavy copium because Supreme Puppet is, at least in KT's mind, a thing.

Back in my days, trolling was fun, people wrote 10k words as bait, then someone replied and the troll answered, in turn, with a "troll" answer outing themselves as a troll.

But here it's different, the lack of proper grammar, spelling and punctuation suggest a low effort low quality troll, and using arguments that were already debunked? It's as if it's a microwave reheated dish, it becomes soggy.

Still, while I think some are high on something that should not be legal, I think the horrendous lolcalisation did not help stir them in the "right" way, aka the way intended by the devs.

With all those Church BaD added elements (remember the Abyss NPC complaining about the Church not giving money to rebuil her home? and the "unless the goddess wills it"? + Rhage being, Rhage?) so when the game, which is already a failure because it tries to deal with different narrators but fails, doesn't even acknowledges its basic facts, what are you left with? A patchwork some people can use to push a certain narrative, if they bend the piece of tissue they took, bleach it, pass it 15 seconds to the flamethrower and ultimately clone it.

Would the bad takes have proliferated if the lolcalisation didn't lol the localisation?

I still think so because body pillows and cultural differences and refusal to interact with something that isn't specifically tailored for "a certain audience" (remember the CoS is a the (Roman bcs those people most likely think it's the only one) Catholic Church post, because they straight up refused to take into consideration the other themes and influences of the game, focusing on an aesthetic instead?) - but, imo, for people who were on the fence, the lolcalised version made them fall for a certain narrative, that was, imho, not the one intended by the devs.

IDK if the release of a remake will re-ignite the "elitist v. casual" player debate, but I swear if some wild takes are thrown about Jugdral, completely missing the point of the game, rude words will be exchanged because, hey, some people legit spent 10 years (or even more!) theorizing/analysing/nerding/fandoming about this verse and its 55 supplementary materials, because you cannot bend an already existing material to fit a certain waifu's narrative

(unless the devs do it first, like they did in Nopes, and rude words were spoken).

[embubuu]

I just wanted to say... I get so happy whenever I see your FE4/FE5 posts, especially since I L O V E FE4, (and Julius shdhdshds) Keep up the good work!!

Aww!! ❤️🥺 Thank you so much anon!! I promise I will post more at soon~ I'm adjusting my hours at my day job soon which will give me more time to draw JUGDRAL!! 🙌

[banished-away]

Consider: father-children bonding time

[cavaliant]

@knightlydumbass​ replied to your post “ nothing you can say will surprise me. ” @ siggy”

this is why he has trust issues siggy u_u

“I mean it this time, Eldigan! I’ve finally found her...the one I am fated to spend the rest of my life with! I’m sure that once you meet her, you will see that our love for each other is deep and true....though I must admit Quan and Ethlyn took some convincing before they would believe Deirdre was not some figment of my imagination.”

[valflame]

@i-nsubordination

⊰ ♖ ⊱

                   Plegia frightened him.

                   No, that was... Fear was the wrong word to use for it. The desert landscape that made up much of the theocracy was a far cry from Grannvale’s lush forested hills, and the feel of the sand and the scorching hot sun brought on an ambiance not unlike the sort that hung heavy over the Yied Desert. That of course might have fared much better in the mind of an individual unused to associating the sight of barren, sun-stricken sandy dunes with the plight of a people condemned to a fate in which they, their children and their children’s children were forced to live in the most inhospitable lands the continent could provide them with in secrecy to pay for the sins of their ancestors on the threat of being put to the flame. It garnered his sympathy ( how couldn’t it, when he had the blood of Loptyr flowing through his veins and grew up fearing for his life at the thought of it being exposed? ), but it was still the Lopto Sect --- they didn’t deserve to have to choose between existing in poverty and hiding or being burnt to death, but with everything that they’d done the fact that he still wanted to argue for a world free of repression curdled the acid in his stomach something awful. He was torn between what he knew to be right and the raging inferno of h a t e that’d built up within his gut fuelling any sinister motivations in his head to set them all ablaze himself, but he was in another world now. There were no Loptyrians here save for himself, and that was only by ( holy ) blood, not religion.

                   Instead there were Grimleal, Grimleal worshipping a fell dragon from within their desert nation, attempting to breed their dark god a human vessel suitable for possession, conducting human sacrifices --- the Lopto Sect by any other name, in other words. Arvis sincerely wished he hadn’t been brought at all, but with their encampment already set up in some snug little crevasse within one of the stony cliffsides lining the border between Plegia and Ylisse he supposed it was much too late to request that he be benched. And for what purpose? Emotional distress? Pah. An Einherjar could not count on even sleep to provide them with a moment’s reprieve, and pacing the length of the camp only staved off sour thoughts for so long; the sorcerer took to taking a brisk walk away from all the tents and the Shepherds in the hopes of clearing his head a bit and dispelling any ill thoughts plaguing him, certain that getting a bit of time to himself could help keep his heart from betraying his anxiety in time to return prior to sunrise.

                   That of course demanded that he be alone, however. Nearly tripping over himself attempting to make his way further into Ylisse and away from the border in a bid to swerve out of the way of a passerby did little to help that. The duke only managed to mutter out a brief apology before coming to a sudden halt in place, snapping his neck around as he turned on his heel to face the stranger he’d come across.

                   "... Hold for a moment. I don’t recall passing by any villages nearby here; what business could you possibly have near such a contested border??”

[gascon-en-exil]

I've been replaying FE8 and I think it's v probable that Lyon might be bisexual and suffering from internal homophobia. Apart from the "I loved you, I hated you line", there's an instance in which Knoll ask him if he wants to be with both the twins, not only Eirika, iirc. The idea of Ephraim feeling the same or not is supported more on Heroes than in SS itself though. But bringing this up on the internet it's as iffy as bringing Quan/Finn or Ike/Soren (or Ike/any dude)

Lyon is interesting in that the twin he fixates on depends on the player’s choice of route, which makes sense from how the game centers the chosen twin but ends up with Ephraim’s route containing a fair amount of unresolved homoerotic longing/projection. Obviously Lyon’s ideal ending would be to get with both Ephraim and Eirika, which would also incorporate their memetically popular twincest, but of course that’s not something he can ever achieve in canon.

I would have figured Ephraim/Lyon would be a fairly common read though, especially after Heroes made them a paired unit or whatever they’re called. Honestly the textually-supported queer pairings of FE tend to be hard to compare in terms of fandom reaction; it seems like after years of wank the majority of the fandom can quietly accept that Ike isn’t straight, whereas no one talks about Quan/Finn owing to lack of familiarity with Jugdral + the Lachesis shipping war overshadowing everything else re: Finn.

[tinsil]

leif in palette 12 from [here] for anon-- i still havent played the jugdral games so idk how well this suits him but he looks angry in most of his art... anyway, v retro design, fun

[ofimitations]

@aesirwind : forseti

Xane loved when people visited.

Not every visitor, of course. Some of the older dragons who came to see Gotoh were boring, and didn’t like when Xane would ask them questions. Or maybe what they really didn’t like was how he’d tug on their robes if they ignored him. Who could say.

But there were some that did talk to him, and Xane liked those. To be safe he always had to check who it was whenever he heard the telltale flap of wings from outside.

At first only bright red eyes peeked around the edge of the temple doorway, but a mere moment later Xane was tearing down the stairs towards the new arrival with a “Hey! Heeey! You’re back!” If nothing else made it clear he was excited, his wide grin had to be a sign -- even if it faltered briefly as he stumbled to a halt in front of the older dragon.

“You’re here for the meeting, ain’t you? Gotoh said there was gonna be one.” Xane’s hands came together behind his back, giving him something to fiddle with nervously. It was only now occurring to him that he might not get much time before the talk of business started. “It’s probably gonna be real boring, y’know. I could show you somethin’ a lot more fun.”

[imagine-fe]

hey everyone, im v!

i still havent quite sorted out everything with my old blog yet and have a bunch of things To Do, which means its the perfect time to kickstart this new blog. gotta stay with old traditions, after all!

this time, i will only write for the jugdral games BUT this is bound to change in the future as i extend the range of characters i feel comfortable writing for!

that also means that at the moment, i wont be writing for 3 houses and marianne is only my icon to judge phantom readers. (i mean, unless you really want to see my take on any characters, in which case i take even less responsibility for quality than usual bc i have only second-hand experience with the cast. but, by all means, go ahead. im at least 90% spoiled at this point, anyway)

without further ado, the askbox is now open! make sure to read the rules first, though. otherwise marianne will be sad and youre not some kind of monster who would want that, right?

happy requesting, i hope we all will have a good time together ⭐

[sireneia-a]

3, 15, 20

+*. shipping questions.

3: WHAT’S YOUR CURRENT OTP?

       prince of sablé / prince richard from frog game. i can never stop giving this game praises. i’m gonna die thinking about these dumb rivals 

OK specifically for fire emblem?? it’s legitimately a fight between celica/alm and ares/lene.

i love celicalm (in gaiden) for the fact their relationship ties into the narrative. the themes of being too stubborn to see the other’s point of view and then learning that you are never at your best if you refuse to work with others is SO GOOD. both alm and celica are understandable to me in why they believe their perspective is better, but they still need to grow and seeing that over time and eventually culminate in them literally getting a 100% crit rate when together is SO SATISFYING. i also cry at their act v convo literally all the time.

ares/lene is a ship i’m absolutely always surprised that kaga decided… not to give them an endgame lovers convo?? their introduction chapter shows that trust between them but also the openness of each party to communicate properly with one another for the other’s good even with their very contrasting personalities and ideals. they are so healthy, and i love love love replaying that chapter solely to see them go through their arc together again. lene legitimately makes ares a better person and i would love if in an fe4 remake if they made it so that ares in their support convos ( assuming they add those ) return the favor and help her through her struggles regarding being too devoted to finding her lost mother and losing sight of everything else.

15: HAVE YOU EVER “SHIPPED AT FIRST SIGHT”?

     YOU WOULD THINK THIS WOULD BE COMMON WITH ME CONSIDERING HOW CANON-BIASED I AM…. but i’m struggling to think of a decent number of examples. i’ll say characters i started shipping based on their intro convos/chapters tho are:

- thea/klein- ares/lene- leif/asbel- deimne/karen- jamke/edain

20: TALK ABOUT A SHIP YOU FEEL ALONE IN SHIPPING.

    oh my god i’m gonna be here forever if i talk jugdral so i’m going to leave that continent for this question. jugdral don’t @ me

i feel like i’m the only shipper for dorothy/clarine and ignatz/ingrid T__T for real bridal dorothy where she talks about being helped to dress up by clarine is like my DREAM june bride alt in heroes. their supports are so cute with clarine telling dorothy she IS beautiful naturally, implying she’s just here to help her (especially as a bonding activity) and encouraging her to have confidence in herself especially when the player knows dorothy has a crush on a guy who will hit on EVERYONE except her is so… aaaaa my uwus………… clarine being embarrassed after dorothy reaffirms that they’re friends is so cute…

ignatz/ingrid was a big surprise for me cause i thought their initial supports were kind of uncomfortable (but good for their development!) but i really thought their growth was nice! ingrid learns to be less forceful but ignatz makes an ultimately better painting with her help and i like seeing when two people create a product together. the a+ support on top of that having him paint her is cheesy but very delightful to my heart in how he uses it to bolster her confidence and express his feelings subconsciously…. i’m gonna Perish thinking about these two ships,,