#which leaves you with carver dabb & thompson.... who are all very different writers

[mybrainproblems]

What if s10 was Like That bc Carver wrote the opener/closer, gave the rest of the writers the rough idea of point A to point Z for the plot and then just peace'd out expecting that the writers would actually make Dean worse, not realizing that Dean is everyone's blorbo and they couldn't bring themselves to do it.

But like actually! It's interesting to me that Carver is the only showrunner to have written so little for the show. Kripke didn't write every opener/closer, but he always wrote eps within the meat of the season. This isn't inherently a criticism; it's just that Carver is a bit of an outlier as a showrunner on spn for not writing eps besides the opener/closer, and I wonder if that was part of why the finale of s10 feels so disjointed from the rest of the season in how Dean acts.

[deadlyanddelicate]

“it all comes down to the soul(s) in the end”: or, characters make the story work, and not the other way around

outing myself yet again as a dabb era critical blog here but. i just think the difference between carver era and dabb era is that carver era was character-arc driven while dabb era was overarching-main-plot driven with some good character moments thrown in (which may be to do with the fact that - iirc - during carver era for a while they didn’t know if they’d get renewed so they couldn’t plan too far ahead and just progressed the story by increments, as opposed to dabb era knowing they had a longer time frame to work with and deciding the plot beforehand). 

the thing is, i think most of us can agree that after the kripke era - which, for all its flaws and setbacks (hello writers’ strike), had a self-contained myth arc involving both an internally coherent narrative and certain well-defined character beats - and going into the gamble “hot girl summer but make it angst” era, the appeal of supernatural relies largely on the characters. it has to, because for a show to keep running after 6-7 seasons, you have to be invested not just in the story/stories being told, but in the people driving the story forward. it simply won’t work otherwise.

and - to my perception at least - the carver era (perhaps largely due to ben edlund’s imprint in s8, lbr) knew that. some examples of what i mean:

it gave dean an arc about dealing with the toxicity of his upbringing and his unhealthy attachment to sam, as well as starting to explore other meaningful relationships for himself (benny, charlie, and of course him continuously reaching out to cas) - essentially it allowed dean to confront that he wanted things. 

it gave sam an arc about dealing with his trauma re: demon blood, and having to confront what it means to be good, how he always felt impure through no fault of his own - and it shifted him over into accepting that his calling in life is as a keeper of lore and mentor to other people, by contrasting the failure of the sam/amelia relationship with him finding the bunker and discovering a different part of the hunting world

it forced cas to confront what he wants for himself, by making him deal with his own changing nature (being human, then an angel again, and the whole arc about living on borrowed grace), and with the other angels falling and what that meant for him; he got the chance to be on his own and be with the winchesters, to both make mistakes and be a leader to other angels - and then give up that leadership by choice because he prioritised his human family to his reputation in heaven (which should have been a clear indication of endgame human cas but i digress)

it brought in compelling new characters - primarily charlie and kevin, though they were both horrendously mistreated by bucklemming writing them off - claire novak as an angry teenager, aaron and his golem, metatron as a fascinatingly meta (ha) antagonist, rowena as a frenemy, and gave old characters compelling story beats (crowley and his “humanity addiction”). also, it had writers like robbie thompson who were attuned to the fan community in an unprecedented way.

with the dabb era, i feel like because they’d set their mind on where the story was going (e.g.: killing dean, having a new and “better” god in place, giving sam a white picket fence ending) they didn’t really care if they had to break the protagonists’ characterisation to get us there. we still had moments of great characterisation - steve yockey episodes first and foremost, and of course robert berens carrying the dean/castiel beats - but mostly, characterisation came second to what the story would need. this is how we get dean winchester, friend and protector to kids everywhere, being A-Okay with sacrificing a kid he supposedly cares about, not once but several times over, because the plot needed Emotional Stakes™️.

(and this, by and large, is my issue with jack as a character too, because he spends so much of his time on the show so clearly being a plot device - a literal deus ex machina - that he ends up being not very compelling to me. “but baby jack!” i hear you say. and yes, yes, he’s cute and i like him, but listen -- his characterisation reads as a blank slate because ultimately that’s what the narrative needs from him - and there’s a whole separate post i could make on that, really). 

but i think the main problem is that the endgame the dabb era had in mind conflicted openly with the stakes they had set up in the carver era - and that the most attuned writers kept up with even in seasons 12-15, which is why the finale felt as stridently wrong as it did (other than being ridiculously badly written). by which i mean:

dean was set up as wanting something more for himself, more than hunting and violence, and we see that in moments - but it’s not what he ends up getting. additionally, he spends so much of seasons 8-10 breaking down his toxic traits, and then bam - suddenly, he’s turned into john 2.0, because the story demands it. 

sam was set up to become a new kind of hunter, one with a men of letters background, and find happiness in the life - so you get a side plot where he successfully organises and leads a group of hunters - but ultimately he leaves all that behind and abandons the bunker (and eileen, his natural companion going forward). 

cas was set up as choosing humanity over heaven because that’s where he wants to be, and choosing to become a hunter because he wants to be useful and do good - but that gets boiled down to “cas is still an angel but now he’s Also A Dad and that’s his one purpose in life now” (i’m sorry, i am not here for the hot take of “jack is good for cas because he can’t just revolve around dean”. first of all, that’s a disservice to cas’s character over the seasons, and second of all-- oh but it’s ok for cas to just revolve around jack? it don’t make no cents luv!)

i don’t think story-driven eras are inherently bad. i enjoyed seasons 1-5, but they take place when we’re still getting to know the characters; and there is a certain evolution for them there that you may like or dislike, but it makes narrative sense for them. but if you decide to go forward into a new era with well-established and beloved characters, you have to know who the characters are and what they want or your story will always ring hollow. the main problem i have with the dabb era is that it decided the story it wanted to tell - and didn’t stop to consider whether the characters living it out would actually organically fit into it. and isn’t that chuck’s whole mistake?

[dustydreamsanddirtyscars]

I don't blame you at all for keeping quiet about the show. I just can't understand how the people running the CW can look at what Dabb is doing to this show and go, "Eh - good enough." It's NOT good enough. It is demonstrably terrible, and at this point I desperately hope there will be a new show runner next season who will reveal the last 2 seasons were all a dream because one of the boys was in a coma. I don't know how else to fix things without acting like the Dabb era just didn't happen.

Not sure my ask went thru… What’s up Girly-girl! Long time no comment, edit, review, rant, observation, bitch session…  we miss you! You still watching? Curious as to what you think about theses past 5 episodes. Looks like Dabb in his ultimate suckitude as a Showrunner has screwed Jensen over again and handed off his DeanMichael storyline to another. Shocker. I’ll be really pissed if he has. And it definitely looks that way.             

Hello dear!

I assume these two might have been written by you? And probably some time ago as well. I’m sorry about replying so late, but tumblr hasn’t really been a prioriy these past months. Thank you for your message though. :) I think tumblr is working perfectly alright without me though, but thank you for being sweet and saying you missed my rambles.

That being said, I don’t think there will be any rambles, specs or metas posted on my page in any foreseeable future - though I could probably just schedule the around 200 meta-, gif- and edit-posts that are still sitting in my drafts, but then again… they have collected some dust by now.

To be completely honest, it’s a combination of things why I have been silent on here. One being that my daily life with work has been pretty demanding and doesn’t leave me with a whole lot of energy after I get home, but it’s also that I simply don’t have as much to say about SPN anymore these days.

I joined fandom in the middle of S7 and my personal highlight times on here has been from S8 to S11 - those were the good old days of meta, really they were golden and I cherish that time dearly still, but fandom has changed since then (and what people deem most important as well), the show has changed and I don’t feel like I am having a place in this fandom any longer. While I also always love editing, my primary focus on tumblr and with my blog has been analysis and meta and I feel like the kind of meta I strived for, loved reading and wrote myself theme wise is no longer of any interest to the majority of people - which doesn’t really bother me, I would continue to post my views regardless, but these past 3 seasons under Dabb’s reign have been hard on me. He turned the show into something I can barely recognize as the show I fell in love with. The storytelling is a mess and so much other stuff as well that I have been very vocal about up until a few months back, but I didn’t want to be just negative any longer so I took a break hoping that maybe SPN would inspire me again to write, but Dabb’s version of SPN is so shallow, so foreseeable from miles away that it has simply not been the case.

To put it plainly, Dabb has made me fall out of love with SPN these past 3 years as he turned it into a show that has nothing in common with the show I love. Of course all of our tastes differ, but my personal favourite seasons past Kripke were the Carver years as he imo knew how to craft story, craft emotion, craft characters and he knew how to play subtle, how to set up a story and follow through, how to make your heart ache in the best way possible. His style of storytelling and showrunning is what I adored and Dabb’s style has hardy anything in common with that so the past three years watching the show, seeing canon thrown out the window, replacing deep emotion with cheap melodrama and stories that built up and had a climax to millions of stories that go nowhere has left their mark on me. It’s been a tough three years, years that were frustrating, yes even painful, it was like a relationship that you always hoped would blossom again but never did. It’s like a relationship that had all the raw potential but ended up hurting you more than it made you happy.

Don’t get me wrong, I will always love this show and there will never be another show that will have this impact on me and my life and I can guarantee that there will NEVER be a character that will mean as much to me as Dean Winchester, but Dabb era has been painful, because I cared so much about the show. I was mourning it and it’s characters while they were still there on my screen but treated with such careless hands that I needed to take a step back and to be honest, I think it was the right call. For one because no one needs a negative voice all the time, but even more so now that J2M have revealed that S15 will be the last.

I see a lot of people very broken up about it and I’d have been the same way after S8 or 9 or 10 or 11 if it had ended then, right now I feel relief - and I don’t want to hurt anybody with saying that - and strangely enough for the first time in a while interest again (I have been watching the episodes btw, but like I said… nothing that would need to be written about - aside from Jensen rocking it with his Michael struggle, which like you said now has been given to someone else, once more) and a faint bit of hope and even happiness, because this way they should be able to craft an ending that is planned from the get-go. And that is something that could be very good for the storyline - then again, sadly I doubt that someone like Dabb could pull it all together. But here’s to hoping. All I want at this point is for them to make it count, make it worth it - I’d love nothing more than seeing the first episode of S15 and feeling like writing meta again.

So, what does it all add up to? I know this is a long ramble, but I felt it was overdue given my silence on here. I don’t know how often I’ll be on here from now on, I’ll check in here and there, but I doubt I’ll be posting much. To everybody who is hurting due to SPN coming to an end: HUGS. Really selfishly I can say I truly don’t hurt or feel broken up, I feel more like resolution is finally on the horizon and potential for a wonderful ending. And something that I will always be grateful for is the people this show has brought into my life, people who’ll stay in my life way past this show, that’s what makes the show count: just like the character will transcend, keep living, so will these friendships for life and that’s how this show will become “immortal”. Not through the storylines, not through the 15 seasons it aired, it had impact through and due to the people who watched it and who found like minded people through it they can consider close friends and even family now.

Anyway, if I could have one wish fulfilled, it would be to get all of the good writers back on the show for this last hurra, Ben Edlund, Jeremy Carver, Sera Gamble, Raelle Tucker, Robbie Thompson and Adam Glass for example and of course Eric Kripke. Let them pen the ending to the show that famously once said “endings are hard, but nothing ever truly ends, does it”. And yes, I still stand by my sceanrio that I have written about many a times before in terms of endings. I’d love it if the ending scene was a shot of the Impala on some stretch of the road (the brothers may have died fighting the good fight or finally retired or whatever else) and some guy who looks to be lost, but a good soul tries the door and it swings open. He sits down, rumages through the car to find the keys and finally looks into the glove compartment where a thick envelope sits that reads:

“For you”

And the guy picks me it up and opens it and inside there’s a leather journal, reminiscent of John’s but not his and a folded piece of paper and the keys to the Impala. And you can see in Dean’s handwriting there’s written:

“May she be as much of a home to you as she was for me and my brother. Treat her well, or I swear I’ll haunt your ass.”

And the guy laughs and turns on the ignition, “Back in Black” starts blasting from the radio so that he turns down the volume and fumbles for the journal, opens it up and looks at the first page that says:

“My name is Dean Winchesters. And then is my story. Buckle up.”

[idontneedasymbol]

The trouble with twelfth season?

Under a cut for length and because it gets critical. I’m not hating this season by any means...but I haven’t been loving it, either, and the reason why might be a fundamental shift in the show’s format. To wit -- Sam & Dean are basically being used as supporting characters.

I was one of the many fans who were really excited when Andrew Dabb was handed the showrunning reins. While he’s not my favorite writer on the show (Robbie Thompson vs Ben Edlund in a steel cage match, to the last feel?) he’s been consistently one of the best, with a lot of episodes I’ve loved and a strong sense of the characters that I really enjoy. His characterizations have always been somewhat counter to standard expectations -- from his very first ep with Daniel Loflin, “Yellow Fever,” he likes Sam being a badass and Dean being vulnerable. Which is the polar opposite of the most basic reading, and very much how I see them myself.

Actually, my one fear of Dabb taking over was that he’s take this too far and Dean wouldn’t get to kick ass anymore. Which hasn't been the case at all; instead it's an issue I didn't see coming.

For the entire run of the show, Sam and Dean have always been at center, both in terms of the story and the emotional involvement. This has its strengths and weaknesses -- the show struggles to do truly epic plots, because those require the audience to care about the fate of the world, while in SPN, whatever is happening to the universe, we tend to be more concerned about whether the Winchesters (and friends) make it out of it, because that's where our major emotional investment is. Likewise if you stop caring about Sam and Dean and their relationship, the whole show falls apart, because they, their emotional states and their interactions, are the keystone.

Every showrunner has been aware of this, but all of them handled it differently. Kripke liked to explore slowly building scenarios, in which the audience was kept in the dark as much or more than the boys themselves, being shown graphic evidence of their emotional turmoil but not understanding its source, until the dramatic reveal. From Sam not confessing the source of his nightmares in season 1, to Dean struggling with John's last order, to the demon blood and Dean's memories of hell, to them both being the chosen vessels -- the stories changed but kept you interested, because you wanted to know what was going on with the Winchesters.

Gamble kept up some of this, such as playing out soulless Sam as long as it did. This era also added in an element of dealing with more real-life issues, especially with Dean, between the Lisa story arc of season 6 and his alcoholism in season 7. But the story struggled with resolution, dropping the plot threads and then drop-kicking them far away (especially in season 7), so there wasn't as much of the eventual reveals and emotional catharsis as we'd come to expect from Kripke's run. Season 7 also has a plot that's about as far removed from the Winchesters as it gets; they have less personal stake with the Leviathans than any other big bad, as they aren't responsible for releasing them (and Cas is MIA for most of it) and don't have any special reason to be the only ones who can fight them (why they don't spend the season building a hunter army is anyone's guess.)

Then Carver went in the opposite direction -- his plots are entirely centered on testing the Winchesters and their bond. He was all about the catharsis, but less willing to do the work to build to it; instead he set them at odds from the start. Unlike Kripke, who liked to play out the 'what is really going on in their heads?', with eventual (and generally satisfying) reveals, in Carver's high-conflict era it's either clear to the audience what's up with the boys (if not to the characters themselves, who got significantly worse at communication to keep the contentious tension going as long as possible, such as with Gadreel) or else the emotional ramifications are implied but never fully explored (whether it's hashing out why Sam didn't look for Dean in Purgatory, or how Dean feels once off the Mark). In some ways this is delicious for fans, because there is so much fertile room for speculation; but it's also frustrating because it leaves space for polarized views of the characters that canon doesn't deny, even it doesn't support.

At the end of season 11, it looked like Dabb might be able to strike a balance -- while Carver was all about the interpersonal conflict (for the emotional catharsis of getting over it), Dabb seemed more interested in having the boys get along, working as partners, communicating better. Not caring about each other less, but more healthily; not demanding as dramatic tests of their relationship, but showing them working together to save the world.

Which has kept up -- and this is great for people in reality; but less great for TV show characters. We're watching for drama, and the reason why romances and all other kinds of relationships on TV tend to be so fraught is because it makes things more interesting. It's partly show vs tell -- characters who honestly say how they feel about each other can be sweet, but it doesn't pull you in as much as those who can't bring themselves to say it, but prove it in huge dramatic actions (like selling their soul, or starting an apocalypse...)

But I think this could work, due to SPN's nature -- season 11 was so satisfying because after so long of the boys so often at odds, it was great to see them finally getting along. And that still holds true -- it is a lot of fun to see them working so smoothly and effectively together, and after this many years establishing their characters, there's a lot between them that can simply be taken as a given. In 12x09 we don't need to see both Sam & Dean volunteer themselves, because we know for sure that they would, that they would never accept their brother dying for their freedom, but both would be willing to sacrifice themselves to get their brother out.

The problem the show is having now, though, is that in cutting out the conflict between the brothers, it also seems to have cut out the main part of their other emotions -- and largely cut them out of the story as well.

In the first ten eps of season 12, there are only two episodes (12x04 and 12x05) that Sam & Dean are actually proactive with the plot -- in both cases, by finding a hunt and going on it. Every other episode they are either reacting to what's happening to them, or they are pulled into a situation by another character (the BriMoL, Mary, Cas, Jody.) Even in those two eps (also the only two eps that have no other recurring characters besides Sam & Dean), a large part of both the plot and the emotional weight of the story is on the person they're helping (Magda and Ellie). Likewise in the other eps, it's often other characters who are getting the emotional storylines, especially Cas and Mary, while Sam & Dean are acting more as observers and assistants. They get stuff done, but they're not the ones making the sacrifices or other dramatic choices to do it.

Relatedly, this might be the longest period the show has ever gone that neither Sam nor Dean are being directly affected by something supernatural. (The only other time is possibly the first half of season 8, before the Trials, and that's arguable because Dean's having Purgatory flashbacks for much of it.) Usually, as well as hunting being their job, they are personally involved, with the supernatural and usually with the arc, whether it's having psychic visions or bearing the Mark of Cain.  Without that connection, they're acting more as bystanders than we're used to.

But it's more than that. Even if they aren't supernaturally compromised, it's not like the show is lacking in opportunity for personal drama now. While Sam & Dean are not at odds with each other, there is a ton going on that should impact them emotionally, both individually and together. Mary coming back, the BriMoL, Lucifer -- unlike season 7, these are all stories they should be intimately involved with. But the only one of these threads that's really been emotionally explored at all is Mary, and even that's been restricted to the single question of whether she’ll go or will hunt with them. The brothers haven't had a single conversation about what it means to them that their mother is alive again -- or how Mary feels about them; putting aside that they're hunters, does she know how many times they've saved the world, or nearly ended it? Does she know that they've both died and come back themselves? It hasn’t come up, nor have the boys shown much motivation in helping Mary find whatever it is she’s seeking on the road.

With Lucifer, Sam & Dean have seemingly been content to let Cas take point; they offer help when needed, but haven’t been doing the research themselves. And the BriMoL who tortured them and are invading their territory, are getting treated like an entirely logistical issue; the boys aren’t acting like they have any personal stake in the matter, though they've been proud to be legacies for years. Even when Sam started to call in the BriMoL in 12x08, we saw it happen, but with no exploration of Sam's feelings to explain why he thought it was a necessary step (or why he stopped) or how Dean felt about it. And he didn't actually go through with it, so them turning up was more the BriMoL's choice than Sam's -- he basically summoned them accidentally.

Some Sam fans have noted that Sam seems unusually detached these days -- the end of last season, he never was as disturbed by working with Lucifer as one might expect given their history, and likewise in this season he hasn't seemed overly bothered by that or anything else. But Dean's been almost as muted -- he still expresses some feeling (he's be wildly OOC if he didn't), but not nearly as intensely as usual. While for Dean this can be seen as character development -- he hasn't been drinking that much, he's been cranky but not violent -- for Sam, who is given to keeping calm and carrying on in dire circumstances, it comes across as an unhealthy amount of repression.

And even with Dean, his emotions have pretty much been limited to worry (expressed as grouchy anger, because Dean) for Mary and for Cas; it's as much about their stories as Sam & Dean's. The question isn't what Dean's going to do, it's what Mary or Cas are going to do, while Dean's only story arc is learning to accept it. It's more than Sam's getting, but not by much.

(Meanwhile, while the show is allowing Dean emotions, Sam is the only one with history -- there’s been mention his psychic powers, being Lucifer's vessel, oblique references to him being soulless in 12x10; while there's been almost no mention of Dean’s past (Toni did mention Benny -- but when she's describing torture techniques there's no mention that Dean 'trained' under Alistair.) This is partly because Dean hasn’t had much time to talk about himself; Sam's been the one to connect with all the people they've helped on hunts, never Dean, though usually they rotate that position.)

But maybe it's not that they're not feeling anything, but just that we haven't been shown their reactions. A major reason the boys seem so uninvolved is because one of the staples of Supernatural has always been the dramatic conversations between Sam & Dean (as the show itself references several times in the meta episodes.) Sometimes these are used to explore their relationship, other times to explore one or the other's current character arc. But while they're still talking, we haven't had a classic "boy melodrama" scene -- with Baby, talking about their feelings -- since 12x04, and that was pretty underplayed.

They haven't had a chance to express anything with other characters, either. While Mary and Cas both have had opportunities to share their feelings and emotional struggles, Sam or Dean's stay untouched. After two episodes of intense torture, not a single person asks Sam if he's okay, physically or mentally. More recently, Sam & Dean were imprisoned for weeks in solitary, an experience apparently so terrible that they were both willing to DIE to escape it...but it's not mentioned at all in the next episode. They're not asking each other about it (which is somewhat in keeping with their style, though one would hope they'd have gotten better about talking?) but neither Mary nor Cas are concerned about it, either, at least not on-screen.

Before the second half started, I blamed most of the season's issues on Bucklemming getting the episodes that should have had the most emotion and drama, as they handle resolution as well as they handle the show mythology (to the point that I wonder if they even read any other writers' scripts, or let the others read theirs). But after "First Blood" it's starting to look like Dabb is deliberately trying to avoid writing emotional moments with Sam & Dean -- that entire episode was structured such that Cas and Mary bore the dramatic weight; in order to leave the audience in the dark about the deal until the end, we couldn't see Sam & Dean talking about anything important. Even in the final confrontation with Billie, it's Mary and Cas who act, while the brothers do nothing except explain what's happened, with little emphasis on why they took such a terrible deal. (Compare to the emotional buildup of, say, Dean trading his soul to bring Sam back, or Sam deciding to use the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark from Dean.)

We'll see how this plays out as the season continues, but it's getting frustrating. The brotherly melodrama is one of the biggest draws of Supernatural for me -- it's a genre show that gives me the emotional buildup and catharsis of more classically character-oriented dramas (except non-romantic, which is the best part, for me!) I like badass action as much as the next fangirl, but my favorite part of fanning is the feels, and I've always been able to count on SPN to provide them -- maybe not realistically or healthily or logically; but for all its many flaws, it's always delivered on the emotional front with regards to the brothers. The only real exception is season 7 (and that's inconsistent, there is some great stuff.) But season 12 is sorely lacking in that element so far -- and being nearly halfway through, it seems like this might be the way Dabb wants it to be?

(I also suspect that next episode, 12x11, which has the set-up be a veritable orgy of brother feels to match "Mystery Spot," is going to skip most of them in favor of comedy -- which I'm looking forward to, we haven't had a good humor ep in a while; but I also want to see beautiful Dean angst and Sam falling apart, and given this season's track record I doubt it's going to happen.)

What I'm curious about is whether this is an intentional change, or just how it's turning out due to other decisions. I'm wondering if Dabb is deliberately trying to shift the focus of the show somewhat off Sam & Dean (because they've had the spotlight for so long he thinks it's time to shake things up, as showrunners sometimes are wont to do? Or is it possible that J2 requested some easier stuff, given their years of commitment and expanding families?) If it is purposeful, are they trying to disengage Sam & Dean from the plot and that's separated them from emotional development as well; or is the show trying to tone down their emotional involvement, and that's more easily done by reducing their role in the plot? As mentioned, Cas and Mary have been getting the more emotional storylines -- and I don't mind having them developed (am looking forward to Cas's arc especially -- a lot of his storylines before, he was off doing his own thing with angels; having him at the center of a story but with Sam & Dean along to worry about him, like in 12x10, can be a lot of fun!) But they're still supporting characters; Sam & Dean are the leads, the only ones in every episode, and if they're not as involved with the stories, it makes both the plotty and the monster of the week eps less compelling.

Which isn't to say all is lost, or even that the show is losing my interest. I've still enjoyed the majority of the episodes this season. And I've enjoyed Sam & Dean in them -- I do love to see the brothers getting along; they've been working together so well, and if Jared & Jensen did want a break, they're generally still giving it their all when they are on. And every season has its strengths and weaknesses. I just hope Sam & Dean get more involved in the arcs, both emotionally and in their impact on the plot, as the season continues. There's a lot here for them to care about and angst over and make bad decisions (or good ones!); I want to see it!