#zeroabyss

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “Just thinking about it but - UO : MC learns the...”:

Using the relics is a Necessary Evil. Rhea herself isn’t complaining about doing so either. If it saves the day and they can help destroy Nemesis instead of helping his reign, that’d even be some positive to her to come out of the atrocity that created them. Just wanted to give my two cents on only that. The rest is valid.

​TBF that's what I was sort of ranting against, Rhea isn't complaining and we infer that she allows the Relic's use in this situation because it's Nemesis they're dealing with, and they need their power.

But it's not tackled in the game, we don't have Claude, in the light of this reveal, tell her that maybe he should let that Nabatean alone and doesn't want to use this bow anymore, where Rhea would tell him it's okay just for this once, because bro/sis who became Failnaught would surely have wanted to lend their power to defeat Nemesis and his Elites.

It's just, nowhere so while we can suppose a lot of things happen "off-screen", objective fact is, in the game without any indication like a NPC telling us they talked about it or something, the reveal about the Nabateans and the Relics amounts to nothing for the characters.

Like, with or without Rhea's infodump about the Relics, nothing about the upcoming fight would have changed, Nemesis is storming against the Monastery to do Nemesis things so Claude'n'pals have to kill him "again".

What was the point of that infodump? What kind of consequences does it have? Is it even closing a character arc?

:/

[eirikrjs]

Perhaps they're saving the Dx2 models for the next gen game that they'll produce?

Yes, @zeroabyss also said as much.

I wonder how much the game actually makes for Sega? It seems like it's had a surprisingly long life.

I doubt The SMT IP can sustain more than one mobile gacha simultaneously, probably few can. Look, all I'm saying is why can't we also get Cu Sith in mainline?

[fantasyinvader]

@zeroabyss

If what you say is correct… then it may really be a case where history repeated itself. Agnika's father developed the mobile armors that supposedly went out of control, but we know from the history of nano-laminate armor that the mobile armors were upgraded with data someone mysteriously leaked (hinting there was a master behind the scenes). This rendered using beam weapons against MA's ineffective. It also explains why Gjallarhorn went to greater lengths to keep the AV-S a secret.

So he creates the robots that suddenly went out of control, created the mecha that fought them for the organization that would go on to split up the world and act as police, at which point Gjallarhorn were deleting information on AV-S and likely other weapons they were using only for someone, again like what happened with NLA to improve the mobile armors, went and leaked data.

So it was likely Agnika's father that leaked the information, and he was really the mastermind behind the war. He orchestrated the whole thing, playing both sides.

Then we have how Agnika is said to have died when Bael shut down, and Ein's comment about how his setup was the original form of AV-S. Chances are Agnika was hurt and left in a similar state to Ein, which resulted in a more powerful hookup. This could explain Agnika's supposed skill, as Bael is noted to have only been allowed to sortie because of it due to how underequipped it was. This would echo the official explanation for Mika's skill, as his AV-S is more powerful than anyone in Tekkadan's.

Could this be related to the hidden truth Rustal spoke of? Maybe it wasn't Agnika's will that shaped the world, but his fathers before the Seven Stars figured out what happened and killed them both? Hell, maybe Agnika didn't really have any direction of his own, he just followed his father's orders like a hot-blooded Mikazuki (I recall hearing about how he was supposed to be hot-blooded)…

[crystalelemental]

So that’s why I didn’t get it. I didn’t know Flayn or Seteth could be spared my first time though and took them out with whoever was closest.

[randomnameless]

Would have been cool if they had gone with their original idea of Galerius becoming an evil centaur Unicorn while Alain becomes a Unicorn with his chosen maiden riding him.

I think this would have needed too many rewrites of the plot to go anywhere lol

But now I'm imagining maiden-Mordon riding Unicorn!Alain and I can't ignore it anymore

From what I could understand (and what I put through the GT lens, this artbook has so many stuff I want to understand lol idk where to start!) some ideas from the beta version was about having an unit called "unicorn knight" - whose model was later re-used to make Virginia/Ilenia and Alain - but idk if the main lead - they designed the "prince" unit, that was re-used for Gilbert! - was able to turn in an unicorn, like proto-alain, or if it was from another scrapped draft thing.

They also had ideas about adding monsters on the fields, but dropped it so the only "remains" from this idea are the bones from Drakengard and Baltro's ominous lines.

TBH... I don't know if I would have appreciated this "monster" inclusion given how Fodlan completely botchered it (but then UO seems to have been designed with more care than Fe Fodlan so...) but if they went through the "and Baltro resurrects long dead/forgotten monsters to fight against the party!" it'd have been to reminiscent of a FE game where a Gharnef like resurrects "dragons" to fight/use against the party lol

Galerius' evil centaur thing, like him having a second transformation/phase would have been neat, and yet, I still think painting him as a "red emperor" was, despite the ties to FE, really nice, in the sense that Galerius is Alain's foil and would be a "him" that didn't bother to read to the plot, thus gets fucked by it at the end (Baltro doing Baltro things once again, since it was his idea in the first place to kill an unicorn!).

But then, I suppose if centaur!Galerius and unicorn!Alain were kept in the final product, VW would have found a way to write them in an acceptable plot so, who knows?

[randomnameless]

Having played the former Metaphor Re Fantazio demo they really waste no time in showing the partly-SMT Lucifer inspired but could easily be mistaken for a No Tragic Backstory Bullshit Meritocract Red Emperor in its (so far) major villain Louis. Guy straight up murders the King at the games opening and is openly talking about replacing him to the point everyone can tell he murdered the King, yet the sheer audacity earns him loyalty(out of respect or fear) and is the one person trying to fight-

Maybe the full game - not only the demo - will bring some tragik uwu backstory to "redeem" the Red Emperor like?

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “RE thinking about King Gerard in Unicorn Overlord...”:

He also could have left those behind because he didn’t feel worthy of them, further cementing his doom. I can see the logic in making Knights loyal to the King(as they’re already minor nobility when Knighted) since that prevents the Nobles from leveraging their military might against the Crown. He probably even thought something like that could happen leading to him doing so, but he probably didn’t think about how he SHOULD have some allies of high enough positions to help assert such an action. Like in ASOIAF the most progressive King of Westeros turned to trying to resurrect Dragons precisely because all his progressive reforms for the smallfolk was a boon to the people who truly mattered, it alienated and made enemies of the rest of the nobility, leading him into such a desperate action at Harrenhal that killed him.

​The point I wanted to make wasn't about the creation of the Ashen Blue in general, but more about Gerard doing something, and then bailing out.

As you said, he might have thought that removing power from nobles by "hijacking" their vassals would have pissed those nobles, even if it would, theoretically prevent them from using their armies against the crown (the prologue is here to tell us that, uh, no it didn't work at all, Giethe was still knocking at Gran Corrine asking for Ilenia's death) -

But the main thing is, he bailed out instead of facing, himself, the ire of those nobles.

Like, he smashed a hornet's nest, and left his toddler daughter(s?) to deal with it :/

Doubling down on your comparison with ASOIAF, Gerard would be similar to Big Bobby B (Robert) as in Bobby loved to use his weapons and in general "win" the throne, but when it came to ruling and "counting coppers", he was less than thrilled and wanted to fig away.

we can even make a comparison with Bobby loving to, uh, sire and play with babies but as soon as he had to take responsability and raise the kids, he fucked off and left someone else to do it

If there is something I liked, even if it was surface explored because the game is not about this aspect at all, it's how, for Cornia at least, while we are told that Alain doesn't know jack about his country but vows to make a "better" Cornia after retaking it from his mom Galerius and pals, we are shown that Cornia, before the Zenoiran invasion, wasn't all roses and daisies and while Ilenia didn't have the same circumstances that Alain has (tfw you can't smash the people who oppose you because they ally with an invader) she tried her best to keep the situation from degenerating (like Hodor/Hodel? invading Drakengard for because during times of peace his skills are useless, or Reimann pulling an Izuka).

Re-Robert wise : the game seems the make a difference between a ruler who has to rule in times of peace aka no war (Ilenia), and a ruler who has to rule during a war (Alain).

Gerard was in the first situation, I guess he would have thrived in the second but, hey, Alain understands that he needs to rebuild his kingdom after all (thus rule "in times of peace") - something Gerard, despite having some ideas about what to do to make a "better" Cornia, ultimately didn't.

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “@zeroabyss replied to your post “You're not wrong...”:

I definitely say a father telling him he has to do it all on his own and that he can’t even rely on his friends or even their fellow nations, definitely pushed Lyon to take the path that he did. No one can handle something on their own, and so Lyon was tempted to use the one power their texts said had the power to avert disaster.

​You can see how this issue was more than likely a flaw when Lyon talks about him to the twins. About how his father took on the burdens all on his throne and barely, if ever rested. The man shouldered everything that it likely played into his worsening health and death, and his final words being to tell Lyon he can’t rely on help from others concerning a natural disaster and that the other countries would leave any Grado refugees to die at the border to protect themselves

Vigarde pushing all of the country's hopes and aspirations on his unprepared son was his mistake, sure, but...

Between Vigarde telling him to deal with Grado's fate alone because relying on Renais is impossible, and Vigarde/Father Mc Gregor/The World telling him not to free Satan to use his powers because Satan nearly destroyed the continent centuries ago, if Lyon had to pick one command to disobey, I suppose he could have picked the "I'm still going to ask for Renais' help" instead of "I'm going to use Fomortiis' powers".

Vigarde might have steered him in the wrong direction - Lyon already playing with Fomortiis' powers (to save a child! and then to predict tempests and save more lives!) was his own thing.

It's SS in a nutshell, good intentions alone cannot justify the worst means used to satisfy/reach them.

Lyon lamented and complained about his perceived weakness, feeling he would never compare to the twins nor would be the kind of ruler Grado will need to save itself... so he doomed Magvel, wanting to be the strong and kind person he wished to be.

I think this is the flashback where it's more or less spelled out :

Lyon: “Mm… My research isn’t complete yet, but there’s no mistaking the power the Sacred Stones contain. And the Stone of Grado seems especially responsive to my dark magic. I suppose it’s because it contains both sacred and demonic properties. Regardless, if I can just press my studies a little harder… Well, I think I might be able to use it to heal my father’s illness. If that works, there’s no telling how many other people I can help as well.” Eirika: “Do you think this is wise? The power contained within the stones is beyond our understanding… My father tells me that the stones possess a power not to be trifled with.” Lyon: “Uh-huh… Father MacGregor is also against it. That’s why they still won’t give me direct access to the Stone of Grado. For the time being, I’ve made do with the radiant energies surrounding it. They’re nothing compared to the raw power of the stone itself, but… If I can show Father MacGregor some real progress, perhaps one day…”

(...)

Lyon: “Thanks, both of you. Hearing those words from you means a lot to me. Actually–and this hasn’t been made public yet–but… I’ve already saved someone using the knowledge I’ve gleaned so far.” Ephraim: “You have?” Lyon: “Uh-huh… A while back, a fire ravaged Serafew, and a little girl got trapped in the flames. Her burns were terrible: not even healing staves were able to cure her injuries. But just a sliver of the stone’s power restored her life and healed her wounds. We saved that girl’s life, Ephraim! Oh, if you could have seen the tears of joy in her mother’s eyes!

Fado, Ismaire and I'm pretty sure Vigarde himself know it's not wise to triffle/use the SS powers... Father MacGregor is also against it, as the resident "holy man" around - and his words are important, since the Church of Magvel was founded after Latona, who fell herself (but managed to fend him off for some reason ???) to Fomortiis' possession! - but Lyon's reply is... Mockery? Or disinterest?

Father Mac Gregor wanted to prevent him from continuing on this path, and forbade him access to the Stone! But Lyon didn't care and still used what was... available, when he also knows the power he is using has demonic properties, and a will of its own!

Lyon's reasoning isn't "Father Mac Gregor is right maybe I should try to consider that I cannot "use" Fomortiis" but something like "maybe he doesn't believe me when I tell him this power can be used for good! I just have to continue working on it!" completely missing the point...

Or is he?

Sure, Lyon saved the Serafew child... but this hadn't made been public as of yet (2 years before the start of the game), like was this not enough to convince Father Mac Gregor that he could use those powers to do right and good things? Or Lyon himself realised he... "saved" someone who was already dead?

This flashback is even more interesting because we have this, the twins' failure :

Ephraim: “Using the Sacred Stones to study magic…” Lyon: “Ephraim, Eirika, what do you two think? Using the divine power of the Sacred Stones in this way… You don’t think it’s a very good idea, do you?” Ephraim: “…It’s just that I know nothing at all of magic. I would that there were some way I could help you, but I simply can’t. But, Lyon, I’ve seen how hard you’ve worked to help others. I know how much you want the power to make others happy. I know these things, and because I know you, I trust your intentions.” Lyon: “Ephraim…” Ephraim: “If you hope to use the power of the Sacred Stone for good, I trust you can. I’m behind you all the way.” Eirika: “I agree with Ephraim entirely. You spend every night in the library, studying cures for your father’s illness. The power of the Sacred Stones is too powerful to be used for personal gain. But you, Lyon… I think you’ll be fine. You’re the kindest person I know.”

It's a double failure on their part, firstly because they give empty reassurances to Lyon claiming to know him, how he wants to use this power because he has the right intentions, or how it's totally not used for his personal gains...

When part of Lyon's desire for power was to help people, sure, but also, to be worth someone in Ephraim and Eirika's eyes!

Secondly...

No, the power of the SS (especially the one housing Fomortiis!) cannot and should not be used, even for "good" or with "good intentions". There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, even if it means not being able to save people/not reach your dreams.

The Epilogue in Eirika's route is very explicit :

Eirika: “That would be nice… But first we must seal this away… This stone banished the Demon King. With such power… Do you suppose we could bring back Father and Lyon… That everyone who died in this dreadful war could be–“ Ephraim: “Eirika.” Eirika: “I know, I know. Such things would be– I cannot wish for such things. No matter how it hurts, or rather because it hurts, we must learn to accept sorrow. We must take it into our hearts and tame our grief…” Ephraim: “Eirika… Tell me, Sister… If Lyon were here with us, what do you think he would want?” Eirika: “What he would want?” Ephraim: “Yes. You see, I think I know. It was the reason for his studies. It’s why he wanted to know about the Sacred Stones–or rather the Fire Emblem. Let’s take Lyon’s dreams and fulfill them in his stead. We can do that, can’t we? Without relying on any mystic power?” Eirika: “You’re right, Brother, we can. Let us fulfill his dreams. As Lyon wanted, as we all want… So we may live in peace and joy.”

Sure this epilogue sort of sucks because Eirika has to be explained things by Eph out of anyone (when we know how he takes the news in his route!), but the point still stands, tempted with the power to achieve the impossible... the heroes refuse and accept to move forward and fulfill their dreams (make the impossible possible?) without relying on mystic powers, especially if it comes from Fomortiis himself!

[randomnameless]

They did THE INCONCEIVABLE! They did Duo Rhea and Sothis!

I'll wait for their lines before raising my expectations lol, but while Rhea's outfit has the same leg circlet (?) Seiros the Warrior wears which makes me happy + a side effect of the VA strike means we will have Kikuko Inoue without needing to change the language of the game...

The art itself is... Pretty not my thing, like not all. Her face looks weird also...

What's going on with her hair ??

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “@zeroabyss replied to your post “Since I'm...”:

Yes dead. Rhea wouldn’t have given up the chase otherwise, nor is she implied to have dedicated any military force to finding him at any point innthe current days. We know they were eventually called the 10 Elites because Nemesis and the rest pretended Maurice was dead the moment he became a Beast and disappeared, and History likewise remembered it as only ten. Nothing in the game suggests Rhea thought Maurice was still out there, and she absolutely would not have let him live if she knew he was around due to knowing she made sure to hunt down the other ten.

​Bear in mind in Nopes Maurice being part of the Elites is documented, and they later became the 10 Elites (rather than 10+1) because of the "curse" associated to that Crest.

The same book suggests Maurice became "unhinged" after a battle in Gronder - so before Tailtean?

Rhea hunting the Elites is, imo, fueled by both vengeance/retribution but also by the wish to recover whatever was left of her siblings - Maurice "slained" a Holy Warrior and was still hoarding Blutgang - Rhea wants to recover relics (it's the reason behind Constance and Yuri's paralogue in FE16 and it's mentionned in Balthus'!).

Imo, even if Maurice died in a ditch, Rhea would have wanted to "recover" the relic.

So, in a way, the hunt for Maurice should have been both a hunt to rekt him - if he was alive - and a hunt to recover what was left of Bob - the Nabatean who became Blutgang.

Now, in the modern times, we know there are rumours and legends about a demonic beast in Mircea's forest, I can't fathom Rhea/the CoS not knowing a thing about it (hell, why weren't they asked to deal with this issue?) so why wasn't she taking care of him?

As Rhea the Archbishop, maybe she mellowed a bit and adopts a more "reaction" approach, if a relic pops up she will acquire it, but she won't send her people look behind every rock and box if there's a relic inside.

But as Seiros the Warrior? The same Seiros who went to war and spent around 100 years to hunt Nemesis? Who continued to hunt the Elites after Nemesis' death? This Seiros would have let Maurice escape or Bob remain in the ditch Maurice died in (if Maurice died)?

I can't see it - unless there is some event that makes her drop the "Warrior" persona and adopt her more passive "Archbishop" persona - which is what this headcanon (lycaon's death) tried to explain :

Seiros the Warrior is so gung-ho on avenging her dead siblings and "recovering" them that she cannot protect the future (Lycaon's supposed golden rule and the happily ever after ending post WoH!) and the present (Lycaon as a person? Especially if he was her kid!), so Archbishop Rhea (and her many names!) will try to oversee the present - if there is a relic around she'll recover it but she won't exclusively focus on it and won't spare attention to Momo when there are people who currently need her help right now (just like relics though, if there is an opportunity or occasion where Archbishop Rhea can face Momo or meet him, he's dead meat) - and the future - her rez Sothis plan.

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “You're not wrong that Lyon was greedy, but I do...”:

Lyons father also didn’t help. He told his son he couldn’t rely on other countries to help them and basically made clear using the Fire Emblem would be his son’s only means of doing so, which pushes him further into using it. Including reviving dear old daddy’s corpse as a zombie since he didn’t feel he was capable of leading Grado.

​Between disobeying his dad by asking for Renais' help and disobeying his dad by freeing Satan, I'd say there's one choice more sensible than the other.

Or maybe we're supposed to believe Vigarde never told Lyon to "not free Fomortiis", even if "not free Fomortiis" is mere common sense?

Do we know, btw, what was Vigarde's stance on Lyon being able to resurrect - I mean "heal when staves cannot help anymore" - people? I think there was the Serafew child incident that should have happened when Vigarde was still around...

Unless Vigarde himself thought Grado could safely "harness" the power of the Fire Emblem, knowing well who was the source of this power?

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “Since I'm neck-deep in this nonsensical mess of...”:

Rhea probably viewed Maurice as dead. It’s what the Elites and Nemesis did when they proclaim themselves as just the Ten Elites.

What do you mean, dead?

Like, she thought he died somewhere in Fodlan and stopped looking for him? ​I doubt it, especially when killing the Elites is only one of the objectives - the other is to recover their relics! Rhea wants to recover her siblings, and letting a relic unsupervised, assuming Momo died, is a risk to create more Black Beasts!

Besides, fwiw in Nopes, Momo's transformation was recorded in a book, and is basically the basis for the people's hatred for his descendants?

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “Dragons matter, fuck human supremacy!”:

Caneghis does mention how in his youth he would have grown up to be a tyrant in his FB if he hadn’t suffered a humiliating defeat that nearly killed him. Since all Laguz save for Herons run on Strength=Right. It’s why he sent his nephew out to experience battle in RD so he can see that the way Beorc fight and strategy has its own values, and potentially lose to an enemy general if he picks a fight to be humbled by it. It’s why Almedha was over heels for Ashnard since he took that belief to its logical conclusion. At least until she gave birth and her son became her priority.

​Laguz value strength over everything... even if they all respect Herons, who have no strength at all!

Cain was a hothead like Skrimir and nearly died, to cool him down, and yep, he sent Skrimir get some life experience before becoming too obsessed with pure strength...

And yet, as mentionned with herons, why the frick are some Laguz valuing strength over everything if every Laguz is basically powerless against Dragon Laguz, especially Black Dragons? Would they feel threatened by Goldoa, try to start a war against them or??

We still see them (Kings) hold some sort of conference together, so bar the "strongest wins them all" they still are level headed enough to recognise and accept other "weaker" tribes.

It's not that well explained, but iirc Almedha was attracted to the fact Ashnard had "power" and was willing to use it to get what he wants, unlike her dad.

Of course Ashnard's "strength = right" is hypocritical, since he only "won" against Rajaion by taking his son hostage, and threatening both Soren and Almedha's lives, and even then, he had to use Izuka's drugs to, well, drug Rajaion.

So is it "strength" or "strength + a bjillion tricks so you're left at 1 HP and Fiona can mercy kill you" ?

Which is why I usually like the trope of the "evil chancellor mastermind", Lekain by himself is weak as fuck (tfw you're a magic user in Tellius) and yet he is the one who (supposedly, until we learn it was Sephiran, another weak af unit!) pulled the strings to get everything he wanted.

What's strength against magic/tricks/drugs/manipulation and in general, the plot?

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “Reading a certain script and spotting things I...”:

For me this situation is a lot more nuanced than others, since Soren by his own past was treated as an outcast by Laguz as a Branded. It’s not great of course, but he’s an actual victim of prejudice as a child who ended up impacted by that. It’s one of the reasons the Laguz treat Branded is such a flaw of theirs continuing the cycle. Branded as a whole generally don’t like their Laguz side as a result, which we know. Since they can at least “pass” for being human and will be treated as people. Whereas Laguz can tell by instinct alone.

​Indeed, Soren has his own reasons to be prejudiced against the Laguz, and iirc since he was around Gallia when he was young/meet Ike, he already faced the beast laguz's brand of indifference when he was younger - which is why he, most likely, so viciously attacks and insults Mordecai, aka, blue teddy tiger bear, when they first meet.

While his backstory with Laguz is not comparable to Jill's - who was legit raised/indoctrined since her wee days to think they're subhumans so to her it's a natural thing to call them there is no animosity, and who has to "unlearn" what she grew up with - Soren's BG isn't developed at this point (I think? i don't remember if POR supports are chapter timed?) so we have a situation where Ike (the player) is very severe and angry at people who insults and discriminate at the Laguz (Jill and several NPCs), but some members of the cast still insult/discriminate against Laguz, and by the end of this game (FE10 shows some growth!), even doing all optional conversations, they do not grow - which is sort of rich, given how the protagonist wants people to grow out of their initial prejudices and ultimately work together.

Hell, even Shinon, the loudest Laguz "hater" in FE9 gets to support a Laguz, Janaff, and they ultimately sort of make-up, with Shinon wanting to learn more about Janaff's life experiences.

I know Soren's growth will happen in FE10, he will ultimately help Skrimir - a laguz - without calling him a subhuman or any names, and even suffer/tolerate his stupidity.

And yet, in FE9, his behaviour sticks out, maybe more strongly, because he is supposed to be close to Ike and Ike actively fights against any discriminatory prejudices/feelings in his own group.

So while Soren has his own reasons - that explain his behaviour but doesn't justify it in the slightest - FE9 fails to adress and condemn his prejudice like it does to Jill, Shinon, Lethe and even Stefan* - who has a similar background! -, save for that line where Ike gets a minor injury due to Soren insulting Mordecai and Lethe.

Jill talks to Lethe and her character arc is growing past her prejudices, Lethe talks to Jill/Ike and finally accepts to have Beorc allies/friends, Shinon talks to Janaff and sees him at the end of their support as a fellow being with life experiences and not a suhuman anymore, Stefan talks to Mordecai and they ultimately became friends...

I know the devs always intended for Tellius to be a duology, so maybe they reserved his character growth for the second game (I still hope they didn't want to nuke supports as they did from day 1 !) - but as FE9 stands, it's as if we're told "Soren can still be prejudiced as fuck in this game and it won't cause any problems because he will grow in the next game".

Which is... sort of meh tier writing.

*Just like Soren, Stefan is a branded who "insults" Mordecai, but he later talks to him, shares more about his POV and own prejudices (why he thinks Laguz hate Brandeds on a racial level), saying he and Mordecai cannot be friends, until Mordecai says he doesn't give a fig about his universe laws and will befriend Stefan nonetheless.

[randomnameless]

@zeroabyss replied to your post “What are your top 5 Strawmitri arguments? Mine...”:

Don’t forget his line at the start of Hopes which is ALWAYS taken out of context to present him as conservative.

​Dimitri doesn't want to change "teh State of Quo" because he proposes a progressive approach to reforms instead of reforming stuff first and then letting Aymr/Failnaught do the talk afterwards.

He is EVIL

[randomnameless]

The thing is, in JRPG's churches were originally a good thing. They were the place to go to heal, revive or remove curses from your characters and at times the player character was chosen by some deity. Just look at the Dragon Quest games, which are to the Japanese the definition of fantasy much like LotR is in the West. While there was the SMT franchise, in Breath of Fire 2 on the SNES the Church being bad was meant to be a twist because it went against the perception of Churches in RPGs. Later on, Final Fantasy Tactics and especially Final Fantasy X made it a lot more common.

If you ever want to see a really cool take, Breath of Fire 4 really depicts humans as bastards and the gods/dragons are beings they called down to their world against their will. It ultimately ends with the player being given a choice whether humans are worth saving, either playing as the final boss and wiping out the party or rejecting that, stopping the final boss. The final boss wants to wipe out humanity because, while he was benevolent, the atrocities he's seen humanity commit (in order to kill him so the current emperor can maintain power of the empire the final boss founded) turned him against them. And even then, when defeated his belief mankind doesn't need gods anymore results in the gods, summoned against their will to serve humanity, return to their home while the MC becomes mortal (while another god remains, and this was a prequel to the previous games where she was a party member or at least an ally). But then again, one of the villains is still around and he says he can make as many "gods" as he needs for his plans, again highlighting how humans are the problem.

Oh I forgot to mention Golden Sun too in the list of games i've played that had that "old/classic" vibe to it and had mostly... churches/temples used as places where you're resurrected or purify curses without any "gods bad" - the closest thing to a God this verse has is actually a giant rock trying to prevent people from destroying themselves by sealing magic (sure, at the cost of the world and its people disappearing into nothingness, but the sequel basically proves him, sort of, right because when magic is unleashed the cast was manipulated into launching a WMD and that has several consequences like, a lot of people (even named characters!) dying, cute NPCs and to make it sting even more, you can interact/talk with the corpses of the people who died (basically their spirit hasn't left yet, and you have some NPC going all "I was living my regular life, then I heard a sound and now I'm like this, what happened?")).

I'm sure some people already thought about it more than me at 10pm lol, but basically, I wonder if those games emphasis on "humans can be shitty themselves" wasn't tied to a certain mindset that was prevalent in the 80-90-00s Japan, like humans do their shitty stuff, which summons/results in a "higher being" either punishing them or being a consequence for their shitty stuff, "higher being" must be convinced that humanity can change and thrive to do better, rinse and repeat.

I confess I've never been a fan of the FF franchise nor followed it at all but basically as @zeroabyss said, in the Tales franchise the various Churches/Gods (Spirits the Tales verse!) are more nuanced, you have corrupt/shitty people, nice people, etc etc.

Xillia had the novelty of the protag choosing to become God, because the current one shits on humans (because humans shit on spirits to survive!) when basically God should protect both humans and spirits and thanks to a McGuffin everything works out in the end ! Until Xillia 2 happens, but the second opus, while dealing with spirits and all, also gives more meat to the "how humans try to live together" angle and well, it's not all roses and sunshine - sure some spirits can be asses and not like humans that much, but even humans themselves, because they come from different countries, find ways to hate each other (there's even a subquest where you pwn a bunch of racists civilians/NPCs turned enemies for this special fight that are named "drunken man" "uptight girl" "crabby old lady" "self righteous man" etc etc lol)