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vorecommunitywoes · 24 days ago

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Look. That last response to that anon on another person's blog with the weird angry tirade you made at a minor who had already been given plenty of good refutation in a reasonable and thoughtful way? That says something to me that I've been struggling to put right in my head the whole time I've been observing your blog and this tumblr space.

This is gonna be harsh. You're not helping. You've got some of the right ideas but you are the WRONG person to be delivering them and acting as this discourse figurehead of sorts. It doesn't just seem highly arrogant, it's outright destructive. Yeah, children shouldn't participate in online vore spaces, because regardless of people's individual preferences, putting adults and children together in a space focused on a topic with often a lot of intimate concepts attached causes danger and easy potential for foul play. That's a natural conclusion. That doesn't take a genius, just good communication.

But you handle this by yelling at all the minors (and plenty of young adults who have only just crossed over, who likely haven't gotten used to their position yet!) with the same amount of bludgeoning force about how fucked-up and evil everything they're doing is, and only seem to treat people with any amount of grace or nuance when they've all but apologized personally to you for how wrong they were. It's a really uncomfortable and concerning pattern.

Maybe you've got a lot of trauma related to this community. That's fair, plenty of people do. But that doesn't necessarily equip you well emotionally to be shepherding people out, and you definitely don't do that by beating the lambs over the head with your cane when they're stubborn. You seem to have a history of taking personal offense and drastically overreacting to things a minor said to you, as if they can affect you, as if that's addressing the real issue, as if that's going to help them in any way at all. Assuming your goal is to help, is it not obvious how that's not the way?

Or, maybe you're just the standard archetype of a person who spends too much time thinking about tumblr and so has stopped understanding how to approach sensitive topics and the nuances of real human beings, instead treating everything like meaningless flame-war online discourse with no regard for the potential for harm. It's not my place to know which you are, maybe some third thing, maybe both.

But either way you need to seriously reevaluate some things about your approach, or know when to put down the screen entirely. There are other people fighting your fight from much more stable ground. And this lowkey self-aggrandizing holy pedo crusade shit you've got going on is deeply unhealthy on so many levels, and crucially, unhealthy for the people you're trying to help.

You complain a lot about how the people you're talking to don't accept your harsh words. I advise you to take a hard look at how that can apply to you.

You could always just ignore me. I'm just a random tumblr anon. I have my reasons, first and foremost that I do not want to touch this community with a ten-foot pole after my brief stay here as one of those teenagers. But you've put yourself online and opened yourself for judgement, and I take issue with the part you play in all this. I've got no claim to authority but my statements are measured and should speak for themselves.

That last response to that anon on another person's blog with the weird angry tirade you made at a minor who had already been given plenty of good refutation in a reasonable and thoughtful way?

...huh? what the fuck are you talking about? the.. anon on safftums blog who is implied to be an adult? or.. the minor who sent me an anon and i was talking to it about how to get help on being abused and that its mistakes in the past arent something that should follow them around forever? and for it to treat itself kindly because it deserves that?

That says something to me that I've been struggling to put right in my head the whole time I've been observing your blog and this tumblr space.

you have not. and your entire ask reeks of this fact that you have only maybe skimmed ten of my most recent posts.

you are the WRONG person to be delivering them and acting as this discourse figurehead of sorts.

i do not want to be a figurehead. i never claimed to be a figurehead. i have encouraged people to make their own posts about the issues with this community. or, fuck, make their own BLOG to give their opinions. in fact, ive stated this multiple times!

But you handle this by yelling at all the minors

the one who was calling people faggots and r*tards, the one who was defending the use of that, another who was calling a child a "tard" for having sexual trauma and was struggling with finding ways to cope with it, or that instance where one drew inappropriate art of me? or the one who claimed to be a minor i was harassing/stalking but refused to namedrop themselves so i had no proof that they were a real person who i have ever even spoken to? which one of those do you have a problem with me being angry at? (some of which i have already worked out the issue with)

and only seem to treat people with any amount of grace or nuance when they've all but apologized personally to you for how wrong they were. It's a really uncomfortable and concerning pattern.

i like being nice to people who apologize for hurting others. idk why this is an issue. this especially smells of concern trolling.

i also engage more kindly with people to come to me in good faith, and arent... well... doing whatever the fuck youre doing. or if they come in to harass me or make weird claims about me.

Or, maybe you're just the standard archetype of a person who-

yawn. here comes the dehumanization. not concerned with what narrative you make up in your head of me to justify sending this unhelpful opinion of yours. the call is coming from inside the house, man.

Maybe you've got a lot of trauma related to this community.

you have not read any of my blog outside of my most recent posts. i have gone to extensive lengths about my sexual trauma i have experienced here. and thats just a "maybe" to you, but ur so sure about all your other assumptions about me huh?

But either way you need to seriously reevaluate some things about your approach, or know when to put down the screen entirely.

hi mx. tone police! no. fuck you in particular.

And this lowkey self-aggrandizing holy pedo crusade shit you've got going on is deeply unhealthy on so many levels,

there are still pedophiles actively posting in the whole kid-friendly vore community, even after being called out sexually abusing children. if you would like to point out to me the part where it is unhealthy to be angry about this, then do tell! ill feed your high horse a nice apple while ur at it too!

You complain a lot about how the people you're talking to don't accept your harsh words. I advise you to take a hard look at how that can apply to you.

i accept useful criticism when i get it

so you dont even know anything about this community outside of a brief stay some years ago? why the fuck are you here then? did you just, like, glance at this blog, go "i know everything there is to know about this community" and then just start blasting hot shit out of your ass?

But you've put yourself online and opened yourself for judgement, and I take issue with the part you play in all this.

.....ok? you know you could make your own blog to address things like this if you truly wanted. no one is stopping you. again. i encourage it.

I've got no claim to authority but my statements are measured and should speak for themselves.

they speak like a self-aggrandizing dick who thinks they know all there is about a subject they took less than five minutes looking at. read up on the people ive spoken to who were groomed, maybe youd be just as fucking angry as i am! or not.

perhaps evaluate why it is okay for you to be demeaning and make up a narrative about the type of person i am. you are not truly interested in giving genuine criticism to my behavior, despite your very mild tone may attempt to suggest on the surface. your meek and polite attitude to mask your clear disgust with me has not gone unnoticed.

#swwh #e-a/t #e a/t #eaten alive trope #extreme cuddling #swallowed alive trope #the noms community #sfw noms #v0re #i genuinely think this anon has only heard of me like 5 minutes ago #you dont say shit like this if youve been 'observing' me for a while #unless you just #only started looking at my posts after my months long break from here?#what compels a person to act like you do?#do you enjoy your attempt to be an armchair psychologist?

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jeremy-queere · 2 years ago

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not to start any Discourse bc this is just my own preferences/interpretation. i do read michael as gay, full stop. that doesn't mean meremine can't exist but i've only seen it (GRANTED I HAVEN'T BEEN TOO ACTIVE IN THE FANDOM LATELY, this is NOT a sweeping statement about fandom trends. this statement does not sweep at all. it is kicking around a single dust bunny like a soccer ball) as a relationship w all 3 parties being in love with each other. i mean more power to christine if she can land 2 weed-smoking boyfriends. but tbh i'm here for the romance for jeremy w both of them, and then christine and michael unexpectedly bonding over their shared Weirdness w a capital W

like when i write michael, i have him be p distrustful of other peers especially ones that don't share his interests? and he is not a theatre gay sorry. so i think it would take a lot of time for him to warm up to christine and be able to get over the potential (very justified) jealousy/insecurity post-optic-blocking.

but that may lead to him trying to prove he's weird because christine is tangential to the Popular People and that always makes them leave him alone. but soon it becomes an arms race of shouting out their weirdest traits. i think christine will not even realize he is trying to challenge her so much as that they're just havin fun being fucking weirdos together

#oops i got rambly

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brettdoesdiscourse · 2 years ago

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being anti contact doesn't change the sexualization of REAL minors. whether you think it's harmful or not doesn't change that it leaks into behavior and kids are attentive, and they know when someone gives them a bad feeling. i dont have to tolerate someone looking at me with lecherous intent in my own life; i walk away, or i tell them to fuck off. children dont have that autonomy, and they are forced to suffer the weird as vibes from "no contact" creeps knowing fully they are in danger and no one will take them seriously, because "nothing actually happened."

i dont care about your answer to this or having an argument, i will not be back. hopefully this will just get you to think critically and outside of the ass of what stirs the discourse pot and understand the real life ramifications of the shit you're defending.

i dont care about your answer to this or having an argument

Maybe stop sending asks if you don't care then lol.

being anti contact doesn't change the sexualization of REAL minors.

Who is talking about the sexualization of real minors? What post of mine have you seen where I encourage people attracted to minors to sexualize real minors? If you're creating or viewing CSEM, that's bad. Across the board. CSEM is incredibly harmful, but please be aware of the actual definition of CSEM before you try to have a conversation about it because many people get it wrong.

whether you think it's harmful or not doesn't change that it leaks into behavior

Can you provide some proof of this? Like, where are you getting your studies and statistics to say attraction inherently leaks into behavior? Because people are attracted to things all the time that don't leak into their behavior. Thoughts are not actions.

kids are attentive, and they know when someone gives them a bad feeling.

This is such a blanket statement and honestly, a very damaging ones. Kids do not always have this feeling. They should be taught to recognize actual signs of abuse and to not rely on a feeling they may or may not get. Education is one of the best tools when it comes to prevention. But you're arguing two different things anyway.

You're assuming this person you made up in your head is around minors they are attracted to. A person being attracted to a minor does not mean they will be attracted to every minor. They might not even be attracted to any minors they've seen or know in real life. Most people I've talked to do not spend time with or interact with a child they're attracted to.

children dont have that autonomy, and they are forced to suffer the weird as vibes from "no contact" creeps knowing fully they are in danger and no one will take them seriously, because "nothing actually happened."

I don't encourage this in any way, shape, or form. I encourage child autonomy and I encourage any minor to distance themselves from any person that makes them feel weird, attracted to them or not. I don't think any person should be interacting with kids if the kid is uncomfortable, no matter the person's age or attraction status.

We don't disagree there, but that's not an isolated problem to people attracted to kids. Unfortunately again, kids don't always know when there is danger or a bad situation. Most of online grooming and people being weird to/with children relies on making kids think that behavior's okay.

So again, we need to educate kids better and have more resources that are both free and easily accessible to them. Kids should always have the knowledge to recognize a bad situation and the means to say, "hey this is making me feel bad/weird/uncomfortable/etc."

And overall, your take just lacks a lot of nuance.

You're assuming a person with a certain attraction will always act on these things in real life whether it's intentional or not. And that's simply not the case.

Other people have attractions every day that they'd never act on in real life. Many people are into watching anal and they wouldn't actually want to do anal in real life. Is it inevitable that they'll do anal or sexualize random people's asses?

If you're attracted to men, are you capable of being around men without sexualizing them or making a move on them? Or are you inevitably going to sexualize a man? Will your attraction inevitably leak out into sexualizing men in your life?

You're making a lot of blanket statements for an entire group and that's rarely beneficial, and it's not beneficial to you now either.

I hope you educate yourself more on the subject or at least stop sending anons to random blogs. Have a good day.

#pro para #para #asks #anon #brett answers

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sheriffslop · 2 years ago

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Lop’s Shipping Discourse Statement !! ✨ ( TW ; Uncensored Mentions of Gr**ming / P*dophilia )

Just releasing this now, so there is less misconceptions about what I have said due to discourse lately. I’m in no way, calling anyone a predator for their ships, however, we have to understand that sometimes media imported from Japan is problematic in a sense, and I know, I know, I know that sometimes there are characters from various mangas, shows, games, etc. where the characters look young but they are legal adults.

I am a baby faced adult, however, I can fully say with confidence that while you personally aren’t a weird, disgusting creep, that doesn’t mean there aren’t any out there that do get drawn to media, using the reason that the character is legal to be creepy about certain aspects. I personally have been fetishized for looking young, even when I was a minor, and y’all have no idea how frequently I have heard statements such as “ I can’t wait until you’re legal “ - I literally had one of the men that groomed / assaulted me reach out not even two weeks after I turned eighteen, trying to get me to visit him states away without my family, that’s when I realized that it was over all an extremely wrong concept, especially since he still mentioned that I was pretty, asked if I still had braces ( something commonly worn on teenagers ). I don’t know what he was planning, but I know it wasn’t good. He wasn’t the only one to act this way towards myself as well. I’ve even had strange men approach me in public and immediately go with pickup lines talking about how “ young “ and “ innocent “ I look, and I know this sounds extreme and maybe even false, but I just want to explain why I have a stance that I do on this issue.

What I am saying is that when the age isn’t confirmed, and a lot of media from Japan has banked off of this concept, it’s a very dicey territory. You guys out there saying Yuma is a legal adult is whatever, it’s fine, for the most part, I’ve been joking, however, I can under that might not have seemed clear due to not using tone tags or being more explicit in the way I was speaking, and tone is always extremely hard to get across using text. For this, I apologize and I never wanted to make anyone feel uncomfortable in the fandom or make anyone feel as if I was directly calling them a predator. That was aggressive and uncalled for on my behalf, and I promise, I’m genuinely not a very hateful person, and those actions absolutely contradict with who I am. I want everyone to have fun here, enjoy being a part of the fandom on the internet, however, I also have my own boundaries concerning this sort of stuff, and I would like for us to reach a mutual understanding.

Just for my personal boundaries, I ask that nobody sends any ships involving Yuma and a confirmed adult in my inbox because it makes me uncomfortable personally, considering that I view him as a minor, and the game already puts him in situations and has him having discussions I find to be a bit icky already. This is more so because I have trauma relating to this sort of stuff and I would like my boundaries respected. I apologize again if I have violated or bullied anybody else over their views.

I’m definitely not saying to stop creating content, I still find the memes to be hilarious and everyone!s artwork thus far has been pretty good, and I’m glad to see people creating or consuming content that they enjoy, because that’s what being a fan is all about !! If your interpretation of Yuma is different than my own, then please, see it that way.

My issue isn’t with you, it’s with Kodaka, it’s with loli / shota bait, it’s with the passive sexualization of characterization belonging to minors, because I believe that it passively promotes the idea to objectify a minor in a light they don’t need to be objectified in. I hope you understand, just as I’m trying to be a bit more understanding with you all.

Regardless !! I appreciate the support and the feedback, I’ve had a ton of fun discussions and seen a lot of enjoyable content thus far. I don’t want anyone to give up, because this is basically the birthing stage of a fandom. Enjoy yourself, have fun, create and enjoy to your heart’s content. 💕✨🥂

#Yuma shipping discourse #I would consider this an apology but it’s more of a statement #I’m just explaining things and trying to clear things up #lop rambles !!#master detective archives #master detective archives: rain code #raincode #rain code #I mean #I am sorry about a few of my actions #and this isn’t an apology I’m demanding you accept either

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ablednt · 3 years ago

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What systems (especially systems with stigmatized disorders like DID/OSDD/UDD, schizophrenia, bipolar, etc.) actually need to hear:

Singlets benefit from keeping you weak. When they throw bullshit discourse at you, when they make being a system hard that’s deliberate! Suffering isn’t innate to plurality but it is innate to being a marginalized group in a violent society.

You don’t Fucking Owe Anyone Shit when it comes to your personal information. No one deserves to know how your system functions. No one needs to know what roles your members have, what sources they’re from, literally any of that. Don’t tell anyone if you don’t feel comfortable doing so.

Don’t trust singlets until they’ve done things to earn that trust. They are not your friends just because they say they are. Make Them Prove It by first treating you and your alters like human beings (and/or respecting your alterhuman identities)

No One Actually Knows How Every System Works. If anyone makes a definitive statement about systemhood like “it’s ALWAYS like this” or “this is the ONLY way a system can exist” they’re lying to and trying to gaslight you.

Your systems never going to be “normal.” every time you fit someone’s criteria for a “real and normal” system something else is going to show up in system to make you weird. The sooner you give up trying to fit into singlet ideals of what makes a system the safer you will be.

If you think “well this can’t happen to me” when you here about other systems that’s a falacy and it’s going to come back to bite you later.

You Deserve So Much Fucking More than singlets give you. Holy shit you deserve better you can always take less bullshit from them you always deserve to assert yourself and be plural on main don’t apologize for your sentience.

It gets better the more “weird” systems you befriend.

Stop paying attention to syscourse that stuff is rotting your brain lol.

#Plural Talk

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wolf-queer-discourse · 4 years ago

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Adventures in Aphobia #1

So I was scrolling through Tumblr the other day (a regrettable mistake as always), and I had the great pleasure of seeing this joyous post.

*deep breath*

Not gonna lie, posts like this make me real pissed. Pissed because the person who posted this exists in a space where they feel comfortable enough to post this online. Pissed because these posts are so common and often face little backlash. And pissed because there’s nothing better than allosexuals condescendingly explaining to asexual people why they’re dirty attention whores who invent their own oppression. Ace people deserve to be defended against this horseshit. Young people see these posts, and it’s extremely damaging to have your identity be nothing more than fuel for people in discourse to mock you and demand you bled in order for them to notice your pain.

Anger aside, many people do not see why this post is wrong, so why is it? Let’s unpack this clusterfuck of bigotry:

“would love to see substantive evidence of systematic “aphobia” that isn’t actually just misogyny, toxic masculinity, or rpe culture.”

God damn, we are not mincing our words here XD. A few things: systematic in bold, which tells you if you do not make a blood sacrifice on the altar of queer pain you will not be taken seriously. Potential nitpick, but systemic and systematic are not the same thing. I believe systemic is the word they’re looking for. Systematic implies a lot more intentionality that can be hard to prove. Systemic merely means that systems, in their current state, do aphobic things, which they absolutely do.

“Aphobia” in quotes is absolutely rich. Not only will this person refuse to acknowledge systemic aphobia, which is only one type, but this poster casts clear doubt upon the mere concept of aphobia in and of itself. We love to see it.

There’s a lot to unpack here. The statement, as clearly condescending as intended, is sort of correct, though it doesn’t mean a whole lot. Systemic oppression is about the systems in a society (government, healthcare, etc) discriminating against people. Systemic oppression is not bigotry faced on a person-to-person level. In short, systematic oppression is something a person experiences in their overall life, while personal discrimination is experienced on a personal level by people who are not singularly in control of the systems. This post boils down the negative comments ace people face into being called “weird”, which is an understatement for sure, but calling a gay person weird isn’t systemic oppression either.

It’s still bad and discriminatory.

This is such a snotty way to dismiss aphobia as some mere, insignificant comment with no meaning as if it doesn’t reinforce society’s painful aphobic views in the same way casual homophobic comments reinforce heteronormativity and society’s hostility toward gay people.

Ace people face discrimination in healthcare, most notably, which is systemic discrimination, but the systemic discrimination of asexuals really ought to be its own post if I’m to nosedive into it. Even if ace people faced no systemic discrimination, it wouldn’t make this point anymore correct. Discrimination is a perfectly valid reason to feel disregarded by society, and often only ace people are denied the right to feel this way and are instead gaslit into admitting what they face is no big deal and they’re just making it up for attention.

The experience of being pressured to have sex when you’re allo vs ace is very different. The vast majority of allo people do not plan to be celibate their whole lives. Many ace people do not want to have sex, ever. “Waiting for sex” in much of western society and in Christianity is seen as pure and honorable. Yet being asexual and never wanting sex is seen as a deviant disorder and people are accused of robbing their partner of sex forever.

There’s really a specific flavor of sexual pressure that is unique to ace people. Sex being to “fix” someone or because they “just need to try it”.

In this respect, aphobic sexual pressure is better compared to that faced by gay people and lesbians. Lesbians especially often can face this same struggle, men pressuring them to have sex because they think lesbians just need to “try it” or to “fix them”. I can imagine this poster would have no issue acknowledging lesbophobia being the root of lesbians coerced into sex with men, yet she does not give ace people the same.

Imagine if someone said (and knowing our fucked world, someone probably has): “Lesbophobia doesn’t exist. It’s just misogyny. Straight women are coerced into sex too!”

It’d be pathetic bullshit. Toxic masculinity, misogyny and many other issues can all tangle into combined messes with other forms of bigotry. Lesbophobia is an experience that deserves to be recognized apart from misogyny, even if the two are linked. Please stop erasing ace people’s experiences with this when it’s not the same thing.

Honestly, though, this post, as trashy as it is, if anything, is perhaps, really asking: Is there any type of aphobic experience that’s inherently exclusive to ace people?

I still wager to go say, yes, yes there is, but I must make an important point first:

Most experiences of queer discrimination are not limited to queer people.

Homophobia and transphobia are both experienced by cishets in certain instances. Feminine straight men can be victims of homophobic harassment. This does not disprove the fact that it’s homophobia just because a straight man is the victim of it. A tall cis woman with broad shoulders and a lower voice may be the victim of transphobic remarks or comments. The basis of these comments is rooted in transphobia, however, so the fact that the victim is cis does not erase the transphobia.

People who argue that experiences ace people complain about can be experienced by allosexuals are not poking a legitimate hole in doing this. Certain experiences related to aphobia can and are experienced by allosexuals. If you do not acknowledge this, then homophobia and transphobia aren’t real because cishet people have sometimes experienced them.

Despite cishets sometimes experiencing queerphobia, most of us acknowledge that their experience of that bigotry, however unfortunate, is not the same as that experienced by actual queer people. It’d be quite homophobic for a feminine straight man to claim he knew just as much about the gay experience as an actual gay man. Similarly, when allosexual people relate experiences that were rooted in aphobia, it’s overstepping a line when they claim asexual discrimination isn’t real because they experienced elements of it too.

Cishet (cishet including allosexuals) people do not experience their doctors telling them their sexuality might be a disorder or caused by trauma. Allo queer people can experience this with their sexualities too.

“using sex appeal to sell products is misogyny, it is not engineered to gross sex-repulsed people, it is meant to objectify women.”

This is a strawman thinner than my last nerve. Uh, what? What ace people are you seeing that literally think sex appeal was engineered to gross-out sex-repulsed people?? I don’t think this is a core argument??

Yes, sex-repulsed ace people sometimes complain about sex appeal in media being uncomfortable. But that’s it. Every time an ace person shares a discomfort of theirs doesn’t mean it’s the entire basis of their oppression. For the love of God, let ace people discuss their experiences without being blow-torched over not being oppressed enough with an individual discomfort.

BONUS ROUND

(This was in the tags)

“Completely vilifies celibate individuals”

...no…? What…? Huh…?

The most charitable interpretation of this vague accusation is that the poster means celibate people face aphobia as well, due to not wanting to have sex. I have no idea how this “vilifies” anyone, but that aside, as said before: people who are not queer can face aphobia. Also worth noting that society treats celibate people way better than ace people, which is really another example of aphobia. Celibate people can be told they’re missing out (which could be at very least related to aphobic ideals), but they’re rarely called broken. Celibacy is seen more as a respected, controlled ideal in allo people, but when ace people want to do it, they’re just mentally ill.

Anyway, the post was aphobic trash, and it needs to be debunked more often. Mocking ace people online is not a good look anymore, guys. Don't be ugly.

#discourse #queer discourse #LGBT discourse #Adventures in Aphobia #ace discourse #asexual discourse #aphobia #ace discrimination #asexual #asexuality #LGBT #queer #ace #rant #aphobes have no shame but they should #imagine having a brain smoother than a banana peel

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nightswithkookmin · 4 years ago

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NO CAPTION

I love how this conversation is bringing out the homophobia in y'all's eyes😌

'Yall are scared Jimin will stop looking like a submissive gay man if he builds muscles'

So y'all think Jimin looks like a submissive gay man without his muscles????????

Huh????

Isn't this the very thing I'm ranting over in these posts? That people think he looks gay and a sub/bottom and that he doesn't look like a real man because of the way he looks??

Isn't that why they are fixing him to look more masculine in these ads????

Y'all think him building muscles will change his sexual orientation if he is in deed gay and a sub???

There is nothing wrong with being gay or sub or bottom or whatever any gay queer person might be into. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Omg!

Muscle building is not for men only.

This is Namjoon's cousin. What about her makes her less feminine??????????????

Should she get longer nails? Bigger hoops? May be a Brazilian butt lift? Botox? Fillers? In order to look more traditionally feminine?

If she decides to stop working out or drink stuff to lose muscles so she can be seen as more feminine do y'all not think that would be ??? because she is feminine regardless?

What about these women make them less feminine????? They build up too and they are women.

Jimin with or without muscles is still an androgynous man. Building muscles does not erase his androgynousity. That is Jimin.

He is an androgynous MAN not woman. Looking skinny is not what makes him androgynous. Putting on make up and wearing feminine clothes is not what makes him androgynous.

We've been calling him androgynous from day one when he debuted and it's not because he didn't have muscles. He had them in abundance. so I find it weird that you will think we gay people are worried he is leaning into his masculinity- when the question we are asking is WHAT AT ALL IS MASCULINITY?

Didn't he ask the same questions when he asked his band mates, man man man- what the heck is man- when they said men shouldn't wear rings on their pinkie?

That was an iconic moment and I wish I could write a dissertation on it. Super iconic.

Is he a sex icon? Absolutely. Is he a queer icon? Yes. But he is not a gay God. No body is looking up to him to liberate them from no damn queer oppression- love how you trivialize and make fun of LGBTQ issues.

Really sista? You had to go there? And you say you are a Jikook supporter?? Interesting.

I think Tae put it best when he said Jimin may look cute and pretty on the outside but when he takes off his clothes that's when you see he's more masculine. I think for some of us, we've always seen Jimin as very masculine in his expressions and very experimental in his expressions of femininity. I've always seen him as grounded in his masculinity than feminity- although he does suffer from toxic masculinity every now.

I'm simply saying this may be one of those times. Emphasis on may be. I'm over it. Just took note of it.

When it comes to exercising, the members have said he used to be the one who trained the hardest in dance rehearsals. Didn't RM say he and Jin used to look up to him and learn from him because he is well disciplined?

He's always exercised. Y'all think him flipping through the air and defying gravity comes from a lack of exercise?????

This is the few times he's talked about exercising as a social male bonding activity with his members and even encouraged Hobi to join them. If you think he will look more masculine climbing rocks and building muscles then you are part of the problem I am trying to address here.

Do y'all not watch Bon Voyage and Run and Winter package? Do y'all not see him "be manly" and "lean into his masculinity" in those contents? Did he not say he wanted to go do yoga with the others but chose instead to go to the brewery with Yoonkook?

Out of curiosity, let me ask- which is the two options was the least masculine activity? I'm genuinely curious.

And no, I am not uncomfortable seeing him lean into his masculinity. I am uncomfortable watching him straddle the line of toxic masculinity and it's not limited to him. I think I have expressed similar sentiments with regards to JK and RM and Suga and the rest.

And no. It's not toxic that he is exercising or wants to exercise. I question that he wants to build muscles and look a certain way as a man especially if that way is the only way he and y'all think a man should look like.

I don't know about you but this looks pretty masculine and feminine to me.

As does this. He can look like the incredible hulk and I'll still see him as androgynous.

Now don't get me started on his upper lips and BigHit constantly concealing his upper lips with make up. Don't get me started on that! 😡

They are always erasing and tweaking something when it comes to Jimin! Always! I HATE IT HERE.

Jimin is not the first androgynous man in Kpop nor is he the only androgynous man in kpop. He doesn't have to be gay or queer to participate in social discourse.

And I understand that queer and gender issues may not be of importance to y'all cis straight folks but it is important nonetheless and BTS have dabbled in the discussions and voiced out their opinions on it. They are advocates for the youth and that includes gay queer folks.

How many times have they talked about same love? That their BT21 characters are genderless, that clothing shouldn't be restricted to specific genders? Jk have said he hates oppression and Jimin talks about self love and acceptance for all- you think gay people are not included?

They don't have to be gay to be gay representatives and "Gay Gods." Heard of Allies?

And when you say BTS are human not representatives- you kidding right???

Have you seen BTS issue statements on Black lives matter, on Racism and Asian hate crimes etc?

Yes, they human beings.... who care about other human beings and their oppressions. Y'all praise these men for wearing unisex brands and genderless fashion and praise them for when they voice out on certain issues... except when it comes to gay issues? I see y'all's colors.

Also you ship Jikook but it pisses you off that we say Jimin is gay??? 👀

Jimin gay. Jungkook gay. Jikook gay. Does this annoy you? 👀

They are fucking eachother. Do you wanna block me? 👀

JK fucks Jimin. Jimin fucks JK. Are you dead yet? 👀 Do you wanna kill me? 👀

I don't see them as straight honestly. If I did and I thought they were facing straight issues I'd be talking about those too. I see them as gay dealing with gay issues that we all deal with and I talk about that.

Credit to the artist. I think that photo of Jimin from On MV is one of my favorites.

I might have to frame it and hang it on my wall.

Don't have any hard feelings against you but I thought I would address certain problematic statements you made.

Love,

GOLDY

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msgrumpygills · 4 years ago

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I think you're missing the point with that "J2 being homophobic" discourse. Lots of people are. Or, well, maybe you just haven't heard all that much about it.

In it's core, this isn't about some ship. It's about some things that have been said that were - unintentionally I'm sure, but nonetheless - harmful to queer people.

The question they were asked was basically only "When did Dean know the way Cas loved him was romantic?" Which, seeing as that's confirmed by both the writer of this scene and the actor of Castiel, isn't such an absurd question to ask. Jensen answered it with his first two sentences, it literally could have been that easy. They should have just stopped after this.

Everything that came after was a little messy and it made them seem defensive. There really wasn't a reason for that.

I understand what statement they were trying to make (more specifically Jared in this case), but they missed the point. What came out instead made it sound like Cas loving Dean romantically could only mean that he wanted to have sex with him. Jared really focused on that, that this scene wasn't about wanting to have sex. But no one ever implied that. We know that it wasn't about that. Yet, the implication that love without wanting to have sex with someone can only be platonic, not romantic in nature, seemed to stick.

I've see some people say that Cas couldn't possibly love Dean because he's "junkless". The implication that you must want to (or be able to) have sex with someone to love them romantically is incredibly harmful to people on the asexulaity spectrum (and it's also not true for allosexual people). Romantic love and sexual desire for someone are two things that can and do exist separately from one another.

It sucks how people are dealing with what happend now. And it's not right to attack Jared or Jensen or call them homophobic. I'm sure they're not. But what has been said, how it's been said, was harmful to queer people. It not being intentional unfortunately doesn't undo that.

On a different notion (and I won't get to deep into this now because it's just too much), I'm sure it wouldn't have been like that if Cas had been a woman, even if Dean didn't love him (or in this scenario her) back. Or could we honestly say that people would be dismissing the meaning of Castiel's words and insist to leave them open to interpretation if it had been about a heterosexual relationship? (I'm only talking about Castiel's feelings here, not Dean's!)

I think a lot of the defensiveness comes from the fact that Jensen, who has played this character for 15 years and has always played him as straight, gets called names and criticized for speaking about his character not being queer. He has been called homophobic for speaking about how he played the character, while the writer and Misha just sat back and egged it on, pandered, dangled it like bait and left Jensen to hang when he spoke against it. That's bullshit, no matter who it is.

That being said, reading the transcript of the question, I think if Jared would have stayed out of it, the question wouldn't be so icky? For lack of a better word. I thought Jensen's quote and answer about it was just fine and he did a very good job at explaining himself without seeming like a jackass or anything. Honestly, it was probably the most calm he's been when answering a Destiel question.

Then Jared had to insert himself and make things weird. His "junkless" comment wasn't needed. Him bringing his son into it and going on a whole tangent wasn't needed and I think if he had just kept his mouth shut, there wouldn't have been a problem. But we all know that Jared can't stand having the spotlight on someone else.

I don't want to get into a discourse about "If Cas was a woman!" because it's just going to cause problems. Obviously, we don't know what would have happened if Cas was a woman because he wasn't. Maybe it would be the same, maybe it wouldn't, but trying to start up a big discussion about it is pointless and just causes arguments.

I hope I didn't come off as too harsh or rude, I'm just very tired of shippers and watching Jensen (and other fans, actors, etc.) getting ripped to shreds and accused of things because they don't "stan" a ship.

#grumpy answers #anti destiel #con stuff #jensen ackles #anti jared padalecki

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dogsliampaynedoesntinstagram · 4 years ago

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Hi Ralph! I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Harry, and the way he interacts with the world. There was the guardian interview and his weird statement about dilution (which I agree with your thoughts on so I won’t harp on about here). In the vein of weird interview comments Harry has made in interviews, one I also think about a lot came out in 2017-ish after Miley Cyrus came out. I can’t remember the exact quote, but I do remember the interviewer asked him, basically, what he thought of Miley’s coming out, and if he felt like he as a person in the public eye had any duty to publicly declare his sexuality too, knowing what it would mean to a lot of his fans who are struggling with their own sexualities, and Harry said “I think that’s a weird thing to expect of someone else, and everyone should just be who they want to be.” I don’t necessarily disagree with the content of his comment - you don’t owe anything to anybody when it comes to your sexuality - but I feel a little weird about the message behind the comment which I took to be “just let me sing and make music and stop asking me for anything else.” I think a large part of the reason I extrapolated that from his comment (and I do realize I was reading into it) has been his general reluctance over the years to get involved with any sort of political movement. The only two real exception I can think of are (1) LGBTQ rights kind of, although to be honest some of this seems performative to me, and (2) his weird and sort of short lived foray into BLM with the march he joined and his Instagram post. That, combined with his decision to move forward with his tour and the general outrage and feeling that Harry is “disconnected” from his fans, that he is “money hungry” that he is “using his fans” etc. has had me thinking. I disagree with the discourse vilifying Harry for his tour decision, and I think a lot of it is that people are angry and scared and frustrated (for valid reasons) but they are equating their rightful feelings of frustration with the situation to mean Harry failed them on a personal level, which I don’t think is true or fair. But I do think Harry is a celebrity who seems generally out of touch with what the rest of the world goes through, and worse he doesn’t actually seem to care. I feel like he withdrew so much after 1D days, and in general I do applaud that decision - I imagine he was dealing with a lot of trauma, and a retreat to as much of a private life as he could manage was probably well called for to protect his mental health. But his withdrawal has continued, and we only really see him when he has something to promote. We don’t get anything at all from him expect his music and now his movies. I don’t want this to come across as me yelling “Harry tell me about your personal life!!!” Because it’s not. I believe he should have complete privacy in that realm, if that’s what he wants. But to me, Harry cutting so much of himself off from the world has made him feel incredibly shallow and disconnected from his fan base, except when he has something to sell. And I do wholeheartedly think when you’re in the position of massive privilege that Harry is, you have a duty to be a well educated, well informed, active participant in your communities, and to throw your weight around for good. On the one hand, I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt. He came into this life he has now at 16, after leading a childhood that seemed to be fairly untouched by any real hardships. He has lived a life that is largely insulated from the way the rest of the world lives. On the other hand, he has the ability to educate himself, and not having those lived experiences personally doesn’t, I think, excuse him from learning about them and working to help who and where he can. I don’t think I really have a question here, I guess I’m just interested in your thoughts. I value your input, and your answers always push me to think about things in ways I hadn’t before. This has been taking up a lot of my mental space, and I’m curious if you’ve thought about it any.

Oh anon - there's a lot here and I'll try to untangle some of my reactions.

First of all - leaving outside the politics of all of this - I think there is part of Harry, both artistically and how he presents himself as a celebrity, which is very good at suggesting things, and leaving space for possibilities. And I think, at least at this stage, there isn't necessarily a solid core in there if you push. And that's OK, it has a lot of value artistically - blank space is pretty core to any design. But by the same token, it's OK if you want more. If you're dissatisfied with Harry you don't need to be fair for him - you can just think 'I want something you're not offering at the moment'.

But obviously I'm me so I can't leave the politics aside for long. I want to start with the interview - because context is important - that interview was Dan Wotton and the fucking Sun. Here is what was printed, which I think is a little different from what you remembered:

I ask Harry about sexuality in pop, a topic in the headlines after MILEY CYRUS spoke openly about her pansexuality. What’s his take?

He says: “Being in a creative field, it’s important to be progressive. People doing stuff like that is great.

“It’s weird for me — everyone should just be who they want to be. It’s tough to justify somebody having to answer to someone else about stuff like that.”

So has Harry personally labelled his sexuality?

He replies: “No, I’ve never felt the need to really. No.”

Would he like to elaborate? “I don’t feel like it’s something I’ve ever felt like I have to explain about myself.”

I want to be clear that everything Dan Wotton was doing here was wrong, from existing to obviously trying to push Harry out. And while Harry was also wrong to be doing an interview with the Sun, he did a really good job of not saying anything he didn't want to say in difficult circumstances.

I want to make it absolutely clear that I'm with Harry. It is tough to justify somebody having to answer to other people about their sexuality. I mean particularly when that person is Dan Wotton working for the fucking Sun.

But in general I don't think there's anything wrong with Harry saying implicitly and explicitly 'Just let me sing and don't ask me for anything else'. More than that I reject the whole premise. In the questions you imagined Dan Wotton asking, you set up the idea that the only way a queer artists could speak to queer fans is by coming out. And I think it's important to push back at that at every opportunity. I've said it before, but that I identify more with Louis reciting the women he's pretending to be attracted to by rote, much more than I ever have with anyone waving a rainbow flag. I reject every part of the premise of 'you coming out would mean a lot to people and somehow that is your problem'.

Throughout what you've written me, you emphasise a belief that celebrities should be active politically - and I really want to push back and ask why? What good does that expectation do you or the world? I think the last thing this world needs is more commentary from people with large microphones and without knowledge or a perspective. The world isn't made better if celebrities feel oblige to talk about politics. And your experience

You seem to think of politics like charity - as something you do for other people out of a sense of obligation. I would argue that very little useful politics has ever been done under that model. Instead I would argue a model of politics based on solidarity: 'If you have come here to help me you are wasting your time, but if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.' (Aboriginal Activist, 1970s).

I think this is what makes the English football team so powerful. Marcus Rashford is fighting for school lunches, because he knows what it's like to be hungry. They're taking the knee, because they have experienced racism, or are expressing solidarity with teammates who have experienced racism. I think Jordan Henderson believes that his world and life would be better if queer fans could be themselves at a football match.

Harry has said in so many ways that he hasn't figured out to relate politically, and he doesn't have anything more to say. That might change, but in the meantime, believe him.

Last off I want to point that you seem to be drawing a parallel between him being disconnected with his fans and not interacting politically and I don't think there is any connection at all. You said:

But to me, Harry cutting so much of himself off from the world has made him feel incredibly shallow and disconnected from his fan base, except when he has something to sell. And I do wholeheartedly think when you’re in the position of massive privilege that Harry is, you have a duty to be a well educated, well informed, active participant in your communities, and to throw your weight around for good.

There is no connection between these two points - none. I also don't think there's anything wrong with being cut off from your fan base, or silent on politics. But they're also independent (I mean look at Shawn Mendes at the period of his career when he wouldn't turn anyone down a selfie. He wasn't at all active in politics then).

I don't think there's anything wrong with valuing an artist being out, politically active, or connected with their fan base. But there are plenty of artists who are out (Lil Nas X, Olly Alexander, and I'll give a shout out to Grace Petrie) and there are plenty of artists who are politically active (Jade Thirwell, Dua Lipa, Stormzy). I'm sure there are also lots of artists who connect with their fan base (although I don't track that personally). If that's what you want, find artists that meet those needs. Rather than choosing an artists who offers something else entirely and having expectations they will never meet.

#I do hate it when I have to think about the exact wording of that Sun interview #it's so much faff to get the text without giving them any clicks #JFT96 #and I promise you that fandom boundaries will make your life better

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skybird13 · 6 years ago

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Why I Think Fair Game Works

So we’re coming up on the midway point in this mini RWBY vol. 7 hiatus, and I have a serious addiction to Fair Game. With no more canon content coming out for another week (😭), I thought I’d provide some self-indulgent rambling in-depth analysis as to exactly why I think Qrow and Clover work so well together. I’ll be pulling off of what we have in the show so far (because I tend to base my ships off of canon context), but I’ll also be making some reasonable assumptions regarding Clover’s character since we don’t have a whole lot on him yet.

[Note: I’m not really trying to sway anyone with this post, so if you don’t agree or don’t like FG, feel free to scroll right on by and have a nice day. I’m all for discourse but that’s not the point of this particular post. Make your own and invite me to engage and we can have a convo.)

That being said, and without further ado, here are my top reasons for being Fair Game trash. Be forewarned, this is loooong. Damn thing turned into a dissertation.

Reason #1: Clover is a source of stability

One of the biggest criticisms I’ve seen aimed at Fair Game (aside from the more inane ones, which I will not dignify with an acknowledgment on this post) is that Qrow hates specialists. And people are right. It’s one of the first insights we get into his character in his volume 3 debut episode, right after the fact that he’s an alcoholic. I completely agree that if these two men had met in volume 3 or even 4, there is no way they would have gotten along. Clover is a soldier. A military man. He goes by the book and, in his mind, there’s not a lot of wiggle room when it comes to doing things the right way (see: his conversation with Robyn). He would have driven volume 3 Qrow up the wall, and not in a sexy way.

But the fact is, Qrow has been through a hell of a lot since then. He lost Ozpin twice (once to death and once to the lies Oz himself told), lost his way and sense of purpose because of it, almost died on multiple occasions, fell into deep emotional darkness, came under the influence of the Apathy, and had to finally acknowledge his own depression and poor coping mechanisms, or lack thereof, as a result. Shit like that changes you in deep and fundamental ways and, while I would have loved for a bit more in-show focus on this transition, I think RT gave us enough to infer the rest.

Thanks mostly to Ruby, Qrow is finally in a place where he is trying to heal for the first time since we’ve known him. He started the show as an impulsive– albeit manipulative and brilliant (see: him baiting Winter into a fight)– alcoholic who had no problem whatsoever with getting under people’s skin. The only relationships he really seemed to value were the ones he had with his nieces and with Ozpin, and everyone else could take a flying leap. Now I can’t deny that there was a certain charm to that. It’s one of the reasons I think he became such a fan favorite so rapidly; a lot of us can relate to that desire to not give a shit. But the underlying implications of that type of behavior are, I believe, pretty damn dark and serve as the earliest signs of Qrow’s depression and emotional isolation. Consider: his only functional relationships were with people who were incapable of really knowing him on a deeply personal level. Oz couldn’t because he was the one to give Qrow a purpose, thereby establishing a certain power imbalance in their relationship, no matter how close they were (I love Oz despite his mistakes before anyone comes after me for that statement and have nothing against Oz x Qrow, these are just my thoughts). And Ruby and Yang couldn’t, and still can’t, because they’re his damn nieces and being the adult in a relationship with kids means you maintain a certain distance between them and any insecurities or struggles you might have. Anything else is just not okay. He bungled that in volume 6 but he has clearly been trying to re-establish that supportive adult role in volume 7, which is amazing all by itself.

This brings us to Qrow’s emotional and mental state at the start of volume 7. Again, he’s in a place where he’s trying to heal. I don’t know how many people can relate, but that place is friggin’ terrifying because it’s the place where you have to stop lying to yourself about your problems and commit to dealing with them. But it also comes with a weird level of mental… stillness? Peace isn’t the right word, but when you’re not constantly fighting yourself anymore, you are able to breathe a little and that’s worth a lot to someone who has been trying to suffocate themselves for most of their lives. I think this has a lot to do with his shift in outlook. He’s less antagonistic because it no longer serves to feed the self-loathing monster inside him. Or rather, he’s trying to make sure he doesn’t feed it. The fact that he comes into Mantle, gets arrested for doing his job, and doesn’t immediately get in James’s face, or Winter’s for that matter, attests to the fact that he has changed. Qrow isn’t the one to call James out on the embargo or the state of things in Mantle. Instead, he steps into a role that we have never seen him in: the gentle voice of reason. He points out that James doesn’t need an entire military presence to build and launch the communications tower, and when James reveals his plans to tell the world about Salem, Qrow doesn’t outright disagree or go after him for it (as he certainly would have in earlier volumes). He simply points out that Oz spent every lifetime he had keeping that secret and then lets James explain his reasoning (flawed as it might be).

In short, all that outward anger he displayed in earlier volumes was most likely a manifestation of the self-hate storm he had brewing inside. Now that he’s decided to try to move away from that, he’s different. Of course he is. It would be completely unreasonable to expect otherwise.

Enter Clover Ebi. By sheer virtue of being who he is, Clover provides a source of stability for Qrow that he both sorely needs and has severely lacked up to this point in his life. Healing is an internal and independent process for the most part, and Qrow is going to have to sort out his issues on his own, but having someone in your life during that process who is solid is invaluable. And so far, Clover has been nothing but solid. He has been the one to pull Qrow back from bad old habits (self-deprecation and self-hate regarding his semblance). He’s been the one to take Qrow’s semblance in stride and even to get him to joke about the whole concept of having luck, good or bad, for a semblance. And so far? He’s done all of this with absolutely no strings attached. He’s not like Oz, who needed Qrow to be functional enough to carry out his spying missions, and he’s not like Ruby or Yang, who reasonably need Qrow to be solid for them because he’s their uncle. Clover is the first person who doesn’t need anything from Qrow, and so he is able to offer the type of emotional support that Qrow has never received from anyone else. They’re not even official battle partners, despite them being paired quite a bit. The lack of strings, of ulterior motives, of complicated and messy ties, and even of familial bonds, means that Clover can be the solid one. He can be a safe place where Qrow can fall apart and put himself back together if he needs to, because nothing is going to cave in if he does. Qrow won’t be putting too much weight on his nieces or on someone who relies on him for information and support. He can lean on Clover without having to worry about any repercussions.

Reason #2: Qrow is a source of disruption

Now for the fun flipside of my first point. While Clover provides a source of stability for Qrow, Qrow has the very real potential to provide a much-needed source of disruption for Clover, thereby balancing out what we have gotten of their relationship dynamic so far.

Being a military man, stringent structure and unconditional loyalty to his superiors are likely major aspects of Clover’s character. We have enough in the show so far to assume that’s accurate about him even if it hasn’t been blatantly stated.

Clover carries out his orders without fail, to the point of arresting a bunch of kids and Qrow in Mantle for operating outside of official parameters. His conversation with Robyn is also extremely telling. He doesn’t have a problem with what she wants; he has a problem with how she’s trying to get it. He doesn’t believe that the ends justify the means and, in that same vein, probably also believes that institutions are there for good reason. He is the epitome of lawful good.

Qrow, on the other hand, has never operated within official parameters. He was a spy, for god’s sake, and therefore is intimately familiar with the inherent grayness of the world. He’s not someone who is going to see things in black and white, and because of this, he could offer a sort of push back against Clover’s blind loyalty to Ironwood.

Not only is Qrow not in the military, and therefore not bound by its restrictions and dictates, but he has known James for a long time. He, more than anyone, is in the perfect position to call James out on his crap, and he’s probably the one with the best chance of actually getting through to him. Not with the same aggression and vehemence he displayed in volume 3, but with more of a tough-love approach. I fully expect this to happen at some point (and will be very sad if it doesn’t. I like James and want him to snap out of all this).

So how does this relate to Clover? Well, it forces him to acknowledge that, military or not, always trusting that the people above you are doing the right thing or the best thing is never a good way to go. He would have to step back and re-evaluate his general approach to life, which is the core of character growth. Clover never questions authority (that we’ve seen) whereas Qrow’s existence has always been in stark contrast to it. If anyone is going to act as a catalyst for Clover’s potential evolution from strict military man to a more free-thinking, free-acting individual, it’s going to be Qrow. And I think the pieces are set-up for that exact thing to happen.

Obviously, we’ll have to wait and see where CRWBY takes this one (if they take it anywhere) but the potential for growth from Clover is there because Qrow has come into his life. One of the best things couples can do is challenge each other, and these two are primed to do exactly that.

Reason #3: Opposites attract for a reason

We’ve all heard the phrase, right? Opposites attract. Sometimes I think this statement falls victim to a lot of misunderstandings so let me clarify what I mean by this. I don’t mean their chosen routes in life (rogue and spy vs. structured military man), or their semblances, or even their different combat styles. I’m talking about the complementary nature of their personalities.

Qrow has always been a bit impulsive. It’s been established that he sometimes doesn’t fully think things through, or if he does, he doesn’t care about the consequences and is willing to deal with them (see: his battle with Winter again). Don’t get me wrong. The guy is brilliant. He baits Winter knowing it will give him the opportunity to pick a fight with James as well and call him on his shit. But I’m pretty sure he also does this knowing full well that’s all he’s going to get: a fight. He’s not going to convince James not to bring the full Atlas military presence in for the Vytal Festival by shouting at him. He knows this and does it anyway. In his fight with Tyrian, you can see more than one instance where he’s planning his moves so his semblance has the chance to work on his opponent, but it’s at the risk of his own safety as well (see: the roof stunt). There are plenty of other examples throughout the show. Qrow runs off instinct and momentum.

Clover, on the other hand, strikes me as someone who exercises a bit more caution in his life. He thinks through a situation before he steps into it and overall just seems a little slower to take action. This is true in combat situations, as the whole mine mission was meticulously planned out beforehand. You can also see this approach mirrored in the way the Ace Ops work on the whole. Vine and Elm definitely don’t rush in when they encounter Grimm in the mine, and while Marrow and Harriet might be a bit faster to go after the main target, they don’t do it without a fully formed plan. It’s not foolproof, obviously. Marrow does cut off that piece of Dust with no one there (that he knows of) to catch it, but the point is still valid.

This tendency to go slow and feel his way is also true in Clover’s personal life. In the truck scene, you can see him watching Qrow while he talks, gauging his reactions, trying to find the best way to reach him. Nothing he says is mere chitchat. It’s all meant to pull Qrow into a conversation, which Clover tries to keep focused on Qrow himself. His opener might be Ruby but he ditches that line of thought as soon as Qrow gives him the opening to do so and shifts his attention to where he really wants it to be: getting to know Qrow.

Then you also have Qrow’s penchant for falling into dark mental places balanced against Clover’s good mood and playfulness; Qrow’s willingness to be a little more open with his emotions and Clover’s tight emotional control; the fact that Qrow feels things fully and deeply while I suspect that Clover might have emotional walls he hasn’t learned how to lower yet; Clover’s ability to follow orders and Qrow’s ability to question. And that’s all out of only 3-ish minutes of total interaction between them so far. I think as the volume goes, we’ll only get more insight on the ways in which they balance and round each other out.

Reason #4: Shared semblances

So this has been the biggest kicker for people so far, and I’ve seen it as a point both in favor of and against FG. Some people theorize that Clover’s semblance might have some balancing effect on Qrow’s, making it much safer for Clover to be around him than it is for others. Others think that it might be more of a trade-off: good luck part of the time and bad luck the other part (I’m in favor of this). And yet others seem to see Clover’s semblance as a negative thing for Qrow, somehow dampening his own semblance or countering it to the point that it’s mentally or emotionally detrimental for him. I personally don’t quite see the logic behind this given what we’ve seen so far, but I’ll just make my point and get out of this debate because the truth is that we still don’t quite know how their semblances function together.

What we do know is that they are two sides of the same coin, and as such, are not nearly as far apart as they might have seemed at first. They both carry around luck semblances, which I assume is pretty damn rare. Almost every other semblance we have seen has existed more in the practical realm (Yang’s damage absorption, Blake’s shadow self, Weiss’s glyphs, Ruby’s rose petal thing, Marrow’s ability to slow time, Tyrian’s ability to rip through Aura, etc. etc. etc.) And then we have these two who operate in the realm of chance, something intangible and completely unpredictable. They are fairly unique in the RWBY-verse in this sense, and uniqueness usually breeds a certain degree of separation.

A ton of theories are floating around about how Clover’s semblance has affected him throughout his life. I’ve posited a few myself. We obviously have no idea what the canon backstory for Clover is, and while I do think it’s pretty safe to assume that while Qrow has dealt with ostracization because of his semblance, Clover might have experience with some sort of idolization or even over-reliance (which can be damaging in its own right) because of his, there isn’t a whole lot we can speculate on without more information.

So where does that leave us? With the scene depicted above. Regardless of how their semblances might play off each other or what these two have suffered (or enjoyed) as a result of them, one thing is certain: they understand one another. Qrow may not know what it’s like to be able to draw good luck to himself, but he knows what it’s like when his semblance does work in his favor and screws over an opponent. Clover, by the same token, probably doesn’t understand what it’s like having to constantly watch out for misfortune, but he most likely does know what it’s like to have his semblance flip on him and give the edge to his opponent. Additionally, them both having such similar semblances means that learning to look for signs of each other’s being at work won’t be much of a stretch for them. They would be able to adapt pretty fast to working together. Note, I’m assuming their semblances function in the same way and that Clover has no more control over his than Qrow does because it just makes narrative sense.

This puts them in the unique position of being together in their semblances, even if they’re on opposite ends of the spectrum. Qrow has not exhibited any jealousy or bitterness towards Clover because of his semblance, and Clover sure as hell hasn’t put any distance between them out of concern for Qrow’s semblance. They get each other, and after only half a season, they have developed a level of comfort with one another that already allows them to joke about it. An inside joke that no one else could possibly understand. And that is some powerful shit for two people who have potentially (one person we know for certain has) been isolated in one way or another because of their semblances throughout their lives.

Reason #5: Clover is new

Okay, if anyone partial to a different Qrow ship has somehow made it through this monster of a post, you might want to skip this bit. Because I’m going to make an argument for why bringing in a new character to be Qrow’s love interest is actually a good idea. This is not to hate on I//ronqrow or S//nowbird or any other popular Qrow ship, but it might annoy the shit out of you so… fair warning. I’ll keep it brief, though.

I think Qrow getting involved with someone who he has no past connection to would be insanely good for him. When it comes to James or Winter or, really, anyone else who knew him before this volume, there is a lot of baggage there. And I mean a lot. At this point in his life, Qrow is dealing with enough of his own internal shit that throwing external interpersonal baggage on top of that probably wouldn’t help him in any way. Sometimes, you just need to start over somewhere (especially when you’re trying to pick up the pieces of yourself and figure out how they go together), and Clover offers Qrow the perfect opportunity to do that. There are no preconceptions that Qrow has to deal with, nothing he has to make up for or prove. Clover won’t be hovering over him anticipating a relapse or using his past behavior to interpret his current actions, or wondering why he’s changed, or holding things against him. He can figure out who he is now without the pressures of who he was hanging around his neck. And that, like so many other things these two have going for them, is unbelievably powerful.

Reason #6: They already have the nonverbal thing down

This one is more for funsies than anything, but come on. They’re already communicating non-verbally?

It took me a while to pinpoint that expression on Clover’s face but I finally got it: his brows don’t lower in annoyance or anger. They furrow: the universal sign of concern. What exactly he’s worried about, I’m not completely sure. It could be any number of things at this point, from a hint that he’s not totally supportive of this particular order he’s getting (bringing Robyn into custody) to a concern that he and Qrow might be approaching a clash point (not so far, though if Qrow is going to be the disruptive force Clover needs, that point is probably coming). Either way, this look speaks volumes. I’m just not entirely certain how to read it yet.

But in the interest of keeping up on the analysis, note his answer to James. It’s not a “yes sir” or a “whatever you say, sir”. He says “we’ll figure it out”. Qrow looks at him and only then does Clover shoot him that sideways glance thing. Is he making it clear that he means to include Qrow in this? That he wants Qrow’s help? That he knows they’re all in a crap situation but the Amity project is stalled and they need to try something so they should at least try this? They’re communicating something here and just because I don’t know what it is yet doesn’t mean this is any less significant in terms of their relationship. This kind of thing only happens when you click with someone and these two definitely click.

Bonus: They’re just so damn cute together

If you made it through that nonsense, congratulations! Have some Fair Game goodness as a reward. These two are adorable together and you will never convince me otherwise:

#fair game #qrow branwen #clover ebi #lucky charms #fairgame #rwby7 #rwby #holy shit this became a thing #it's seriously a behemoth of a post #enter at your own risk #cute pictures at the end #analysis #maybe a little too much #i don't care this was fun #took me all afternoon but whatever #enjoy!!!

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queencamden · 5 years ago

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Do you think that the SIX fandom has become very toxic ????

That’s rather complicated. I’m not totally well-versed in fandom drama, as the major fandoms I’ve been in previously (School for Good and Evil, Six of Crows and Three Dark Crowns) are all fairly chill. However, I have noticed that it has gotten a lot less unified as time went on. I first joined around July (before I got my account, just looking at posts) and it seemed much more supportive then.

I think the fandom has just become very DIVIDED. I, like several others, have become more in the Tudorblr community than the Six fandom at this point, and because of this I’ve noticed a big divide in terms of views of historical accuracy. (That’s the lens I will be focusing on, as I don’t care much about other discourse)

The divide between history fans and Six fans (and the toxicity within fandom this leads to) can be summarized in three main points.

1. History blogs and history-loving fans don’t understand/ are weirded out by fandomey fans.

2. Fandomey fans do not bother to consider the history.

3. Both sides are very aggressive on what they think is right.

Let’s start with the history blogs

They don’t understand the fandom

I hate to say it, but we’ve become the next Hamilton fandom: most Six fans get their info only from the show, and from this have developed their own, fandomey versions of the characters. The Anne Boleyn that the Six fandom loves is not the real Anne Boleyn. The Katherine Howard the Six fandom loves is not the real Katheryn Howard. However, (I saw a post about this once) the fandom is quite good at separating the characters from the actual people. (Most of) us know that the Angry Bible Aunt, Chaotic Heely Gremlin, The Mom Friend, The Dog-Loving Badass, The Babey-Brat, and The Sleep-Deprived Academic are NOT the Six Wives of Henry VIII. Because that is how fandom works. You take the most exaggerated versions of the characters in question and work off of them. ESPECIALLY in theatre fandoms, where most fans can’t even see the whole show. I think that’s why Theatre fandoms have a reputation for being cringy. The exaggerated, fandom versions of the characters are all they know.

I think a lot of the time, more history-focused blogs don’t get that aspect of fandom. Yes, Tudorblr has its own memey versions of these people (Anne Boleyn being extra, Henry being Garfield) but the content that they make are not solely these characters- because in the end the meme versions are characters. It’s hard for history blogs to understand that the fandom versions of the characters, are NOT what the fans actually think these people were like. This can lead to mocking, and attacking Six fans for being “dumb” or “cringy”. Certain blogs that are within the fandom that like the historical figures hate on fan blogs and that is NOT OKAY. For example, I saw a post where someone was making fun of Six the Kids, because they “would never be friends in the modern day”. Yeah..... neither would the Queens. And this is explicitly set in the universe of Six. History blogs should stop being high and mighty over fandoms having fun. HOWEVER.....

Fans don’t understand the history.

This show IS about real people. Who actually existed. In real life. And Six fans who ONLY reduce them to these characters can be very frustrating for people who are interested in the real people. Because Six is so popular the ONLY versions of these people you can often find on Tumblr are the Six versions. And I get it. Really I do. I used to be one of those Six fans who called KH “Kitty” (only for clarification purposes between the Katherines but still) and made memes about Anne being a chaotic gremlin. And then I looked up the actual history and I STOPPED. Not everyone has to go that deep, of course, or stop making these memes (most of them are very funny) but it would be good to respect the historical figures. I understand that it’s hard to do that in an incorrect quote, but maybe do what @sabrianna said in an earlier post and tag the characters as, say Katharine of Aragon- Six, so as not to clog the tags of people searching for the actual historical figure.

Like I said, the problem is not with making exaggerated versions of the queens. That is part of BEING a fandom. It’s not even a problem of using the characterizations from the show (such as chaotic Boleyn) What is the problem, is that many fans DON’T care about the history, or think they know everything about it. They make roleplays, ship the queens, e.t.c. but it’s all very out of character to the real women. I said earlier that most people can differentiate between the fandom queens and the real queens and that’s true. But some fans don’t. Some fans only know the queens from the fanon and the musical and because of that we get stuff like UwU Babey Katheryn Howard or people shipping Boleyn and Aragon, which is actually kind of disrespectful to the historical figures. At best, this leads to ire and harassment from Tudorblr, at worst to actual misinformation about the queens being spread by the fandom.

Both are overly aggressive in what they think is right

This is the big one and the major component of the “toxicity” of the fandom. Six is a musical about raising your voice, so it makes sense that it’s fans would be very outspoken. But it falls into a problem when they refuse to see the queens any other way. When it gets to people harassing others for stating differing opinions just to defend YOUR interpretation of a real person who actually lived, that is wrong. Because often your interpretation is NOT right, or at least limited. For example people who view Elizabeth and Mary as a black-and-white ‘good sister, evil sister’ dichotomy, when in reality they were both just as grey and complex as anyone else. But people will straight-up harass and argue with others who are just trying to explain that Mary’s background caused a great deal of her problems, and that Elizabeth did bad things too.

There’s just a lack of LISTENING which is a problem for a fandom based on history. (I know Six isn’t historically accurate, but a lot of fans are interested in the real queens). History is subjective. In my time researching historical!Katheryn Howard my opinion on her has changed around three to four times and that’s good. You are allowed to have multiple views on a thing, and when someone is trying to explain something to you, you don’t have to dismiss it. This goes for the history fans to. When Six fans make a factually incorrect statement, many history fans tend to condescend or belittle them which, as a Six fan, does NOT make us want to learn more. Simply telling us the true, often much more interesting, situation, DOES. Also, friendly reminder, most of the Six fandom are teenagers, and from what I’ve seen of Tudorblr it’s more of a mix of teens and adults. IF YOU ARE AN ADULT, DO NOT BELITTLE TEENAGERS FOR BEING WRONG. WE ARE ALREADY INSECURE ENOUGH.

Tldr; History fans, treat Six fans with respect, and acknowledge that their fandomey queens are not the queens you know and love. Six fans, respect the queens (and the history fans), do some research, and put *Queen’s Name*- Six in the tags, so that history blogs don’t ALWAYS have to see Six content. Both groups, respect others opinions. Stop constantly trying to prove you’re right. In the case of Six fans, you’re probably not (sorry) and in the case of history fans, most of the Six fandom are new to this and still learning.

Sorry for the long post @thedeadqueensclub I meant to have this finished a while ago. I don’t really know of any other fandom drama aside from the Tudorblr Vs. Six thing, so this is all I got for fandom toxicity (though there is definitely a lot more I haven’t covered)

I really enjoyed answering this, and would love if I got more asks (though it might take some time to answer them) It’s really nice to talk to all of you!

#sixthemusical #tudorblr #asks #sixcourse #long post

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tog-resources-archive · 4 years ago

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Thank you fan!anon for sending me such a long, detailed message! Never apologize for writing me an essay since I always seem to be writing essays for other people in return lol. Also sorry it took a while to get to! This required a bit of preparation. You’ve given me a lot to respond to. I’m going to be putting the entirety of the ask under the cut and the tl;dr because this one is very, verrrryyyy long.

Tl;dr- fan!anon talks about the history of top/bottom discourse in TOG and the issues of racism in our fandom. My response: my own feelings on the history of the top/bottom discourse in TOG and the current state of it. General issues I’ve observed in this fandom and the current discourse. Also, we shouldn’t ignore fandom racism, but I don’t think we should be looking at it through the lens of top/bottom, AND I think we should be focusing on misogyny, homophobia, etc. in addition to racism. Not ignore one for the other.

Bottom line though, don’t harrass people, block people if you need to, focus on what you love, support fan creation and let’s try to be a better fandom.

Okay, time to dig in!

Hello fellow fan who has been here since the beginning! I come from the “other side” I suppose, in that I do think the top/bottom discourse is worth talking about. It has to do with the elephant in the room which I haven’t seen anyone touch on – self-identified top!joe fans (in contrast to simply fans who enjoy or prefer content where joe tops). I remember the original top/bottom discourse coming out of a more general conversation about trends in fic (1) wherein Joe was more violent, less empathetic, often not religious, more aggressive in sexual scenarios, and also most often topping. People asked the fandom in general to simply consider, if that is how they perceive Joe, to reflect for themselves about implicit biases that could be colouring that interpretation. The self-identified top!joes used that conversation as a starting point to argue that the above interpretation of Joe, (2) and writing/drawing Nicky as smaller, almost twink-like, demure, more feminine (or writing fic where he was de-aged) was justified by canon (if you recall the multi-day argument about the approximately 1 inch height difference between Marwan and Luca) and connecting those ideas to top!joe just “making more sense” to them. In the hands of a good writer (of which we are blessed to have many in this fandom!), which character tops in an explicit fic is of no consequence to me. (3) But the concept of top!joe has, in my mind, become so closely tied with those fans who, a) interpret these characters and actions in a way that seems influenced by racial stereotypes and tropes and b) use that characterization as “justification” for top!joe. All this when I thought we all agreed that position preference has nothing to do with personality? (4) If someone sees Joe as a very masculine, aggressive, dom-type character (which is a bit of a one-note characterization to start, but I digress), that shouldn’t be related to him being a “top”, correct? Yet that is the interpretation and connection that the top!joes themselves make. So that’s why to me, the top/bottom framework continues to have some value, eve though in an ideal world it wouldn’t: (5) because some fans connect what should be a neutral sexual position preference to an interpretation of Joe’s character, an interpretation which I think doesn’t do him justice. I understand if you don’t want to publish this but I’m hesitant to talk off anon due to how heated this whole conversation is. I also don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make them feel bad about how they are participating in the fandom, but I do think self-reflection in terms of how we engage is valuable. (6) And just to fully reiterate in case it wasn’t clear, my above points are specifically referring to who I think of as “top!joe only” fans as opposed to fans who enjoy or prefer content in which joe tops – only the former of which I am wary of. Anyways, sorry for this long message, and I hope I've been able to explain my reasoning. If we continue to disagree, thanks for reading this anyways and continuing the dialogue. Thank you also for promoting femslash events and content! (7)

So....I did say in a previous post that I’m not a big fan of hearsay, and I’m sorry but… that’s kind of what you’ve given me. A lot of “this is what Top!Joe Only people have said” and “this is what the rest of the fandom has said back.” I have to ask, who are these “Top!Joe Only” people that are on the other side of this fandom war? Who are the people representing the “rest of the fandom”? The only names I could really come up with myself are the Top!Joe Server mods as top!Joe only fans, and they haven’t exactly been active recently. Not to mention the Top!Joe server mod @karanoidandroid was the focus of the Art Theft and Bullying debacle a while back (here) which even if you disagree with her… that’s not the way you treat people. Full stop.

But anyway, to break this down, you’ve said that top!joe only fans wanted to interpret Joe in a way that was “more violent, less empathetic, less religious, more sexually aggressive, and topping (most of the time)” and that Nicky is “smaller, more twink-like, more demure and feminine” and that the hardcore top!joe stans are using this interpretation as a reasoning for liking top!joe explicit fics (and for underage fic?)

Er, honestly, I’ll have to disregard the “less religious” comment in this one. Lucyclairedelune has talked about it very eloquently here. As for the rest, let’s say these opinions were expressed on tumblr in July, just when the fandom was getting started. However, after personally going through all the Explicit July fics, I gotta say, the overwhelming majority of writers are focused on romantic Malta sex vacations lol.

From my personal observations (I started reading fic on ao3 in August), I’ve seen some stories that cater to very… specific tastes (mostly kinkmeme fics so I’m not going to touch that) and some that have…. been written in poor taste perhaps. But, honestly, the majority of fics (aka G, T, M rated) that I’ve seen? I would say that they were written with care and concern for the character’s portrayal.

Now, some fans (usually older fans) are very focused on “your kink is not my kink” and other fans feel this is an inappropriate way to view “racist, homophobic, islamophobic, etc” fics. And I agree with that. If people are using kink to excuse racism, homophobia, islamophobia, transphobia, antisemitism, misogyny, etc, in fics: Fuck that. But I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding flying around when people react to ‘ykinmk”. This fandom likes to assume the worst of their fellow fans imo, and I honestly don’t think that when a person defends kink that they’re trying to defend racism. They’re trying to defend their kink community which, historically, has been attacked and misunderstood by the purity police. Look into the Livejournal, ffnet, and even the Tumblr purges if you don’t believe me.

For the record, I don’t know anyone on tumblr personally. We’re all effectively strangers talking to each other on the internet, so I’m not going to make assumptions about people from stories they’ve posted on AO3 or the kinkmeme. If you want to talk about the issues those fics represent, that’s cool, but don’t harass people whose life stories you don’t know (and don’t vagueblog about them). (This is just a general statement, not saying this about you anon! I feel really strongly about this.)

Now you say, “some fans connect what should be a neutral sexual position preference to an interpretation of Joe’s character” and I hate to say it, but there are ALWAYS going to be some people who have awful opinions. Ones that are either truly terrible, or kind of in poor taste, or maybe you just don’t vibe with them. Personally, I don’t have enough time in the day to address every weird thing that a person spews on the internet. I won’t judge if you want to take them on, but, personally, I haven’t seen any recent militant top!joe only posts that are calling for racist portrayals. I see people referring to past conversations, for sure, but again, I can’t do anything with hearsay.

And honestly, we keep bringing up the top/bottom discourse of early TOG fandom, and we’re just not the same fandom we were then. SO MANY people have left the fandom in that time-- a lot of big name (or simply well known) fans and a lot of MENA fans. Regardless of what “side” you’re on in this, we all lose by focusing on the positions, by dividing everyone by “top” or “bottom” or “switch” fans, and by bringing up what people said in July, or August, or September. It’s exhausting, especially because I think a lot of people have done exactly what you said. Many authors HAVE self-reflected, they’ve thought about trends, the implications, and are contributing/interacting with the fandom as best as they can. Do I think we should stop focusing on self-reflection? That we should stop being careful about writing potentially damaging portrayals of our favorite characters? NO. Let’s keep at it! Let’s encourage others to do the same… but not with top/bottom discourse.

Let it be known that I don’t think racism is a topic we should disregard to focus on other things. Honestly, I would be happy if people gave some of the energy they have for “top/bottom” discourse to talk about the portrayal of Nile Freeman or Lykon or Copley or Quynh… the other POC representation in TOG that usually gets ignored. You may interpret this as me going “but what about??” and that’s fair. I just think that we talk about Joe ALL THE TIME in this fandom. There is an avalanche of conversation and content for this man (who I love, don’t get me wrong) and it just feels really disingenuous (to me) to talk ad nauseum about racist portrayals of Joe, but then to ignore Nile Freeman and wlw fics when Nile is the rare Black Female Action Protagonist and Andy/Quynh is an extremely rare interracial canon lesbian couple. And I’ve been trying to use my blog here to bring attention to this, think of me what you will because of that. (Again just a general statement anon! Not directed to you XD)

And from what I’ve seen in this fandom (and many others to be fair) is that we care about racism SO MUCH…but only when talking about how a man has sex. It speaks of a lack of intersectional understanding of these topics, disregarding the misogyny that IS ALSO inherent in fandom, and disregarding the homophobia of overfocusing on the top/bottom dynamics. BUT I’m not asking you to ignore racism; all I’m asking is for you to focus on the other issues too.

Bottom line though… the discourse is not what it once was. A lot of people, on whatever side, have left the fandom, or have taken a break, or are vocally tired of “top/bottom” discourse. Personally, I think we should talk about racism… but not through the lens of explicit mlm fic sex positions. Let’s talk more about race, gender, sex and sexual orientation, but not in a way that divides the fandom, in a way that makes people sick of being here, in a way that kills our content creator’s passion. Honestly, I think it can be done! But only if we work toward that goal together.

I would like to focus on encouraging events in our community, such as the ongoing Old Guard Big Bang 2021 event and the upcoming Femslash Fortnight Spring Solstice Edition event. If anyone is organizing other events, let me know and I’ll hype you up! But as for the rest, I’m tired, you’re tired, we’re all tired. Let’s try and work harder to be a kinder, more inclusive fandom in the future, for everyone’s sake.

#tumblr is a nightmare #the formatting issues i had with this one...#the old guard #my post #my ask #reply #loooooonnnnng ask and loooooong reply #sorry guys #this will be the last one for a while i think #the old guard discourse #old guard discourse #tog discourse

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