#tog discourse

[goldheartedsky]

I still can’t believe the TOG fandom watched Booker’s bisexual ass roll up on a clearly-stolen motorcycle to make a dramatic entrance for his girl situationship and then immediately make googly heart-eyes at his boy best friend and STILL tried to act like he’s straight???

[myrioll]

Oggi ho commesso l'errore di andarmi a cercare The old guard su fanlore. Ovviamente ho cercato Nicky e poi la coppia JoeNicky. Ed ecco che, blast from the past, tutto mi è tornato addosso come una valanga 😅

[sleepanonymous]

I usually don't get into discourse or discussions of Sleep Token lore for Reasons™️but I would like to bring forth a proposition that Sleep Token's songs are not offerings about Sleep but offerings to Sleep.

[hrizantemy]

Why did I just see a post making fun of Chaol’s disability?? Like… be so serious for a second. I don’t care if you love him, hate him, or feel neutral—mocking a character for becoming disabled is just nasty.

I don’t have strong feelings on Chaol either way. I think he’s human, he made mistakes, and he had flaws, but he’s not some irredeemable villain the fandom makes him out to be. He did what a lot of characters did—he messed up, he learned, he grew. And the fact that he went through a brutal, life-altering injury, struggled with his identity because of it, and had to redefine his own worth was actually one of the most raw, real, and well-written parts of his arc.

Like, if you want to drag him for his actual character flaws, fine. But making fun of the fact that he became disabled?? That’s not fandom discourse, that’s just gross.

[infiniteetcetera]

I lose ten years off my life every time I see someone compare Tamlin and Chaol. Like one is a twenty year old guy who made some mistakes, said some rude things, but then risked everything including his life and his entire belief system to make that right and do better for his people and his kingdom. The other is a FIVE HUNDRED year old all powerful being who emotionally and physically abused his NINETEEN year old girlfriend and then completely abandoned all responsibilities to be sad about it. They are NOT the same😭

[cursedeclipse]

What if I say the reason alot of people still support Tamlin is because they are TOG fans and their fav men , the cadre willingly served Maeve even when they knew how horrible she was .

It also means villainising Aelin as she actively have stated multiple times throughout the book that's she wants to be a dictator

So villainising Tamlin also means villainising the cadre and Aelin ( considering how often she excuses their actions)

FINALLY LOGGED BACK ONTO TUMBLR AFTER WHAT MIGHTVE BEEN YEARS 💔💔

i think that's an interesting comparison anon! personally, i love tog but i do think that tog stans have an unearned superiority complex over acotar stans. especially on places like titkok, I'll see the loudest tog stans/acotar critical people also are tamlin stans like dgkjhfdjksg mind you these are all books by the same author. you'd think they're reading the best most prolific fantasy series out there in comparison to acotar 😭 like i will never say acotar is the deepest, most well-written book series but there's a reason why acotar has been paying sjm's bills for many years 😭

the biggest aelin/tog stans on there have A LOTTT to say about the inner circle and feysand. as if rhys and aelin aren't very similar characters. #NOTICING. and not to shit on aelin or tog because rowaelin and elorcan are among my fave sjm couples ,but they act as if tog characters aren't just as morally grey and fucked up? they act as if it's weird that feysand have an age gap when mind you almost all of the main tog couples have 100+ year age gaps and all of those men have done equally as horrible shit as the bat boys if not worse 😭 😭 like you are not a superior person for liking rowan more than rhys and people really act like that's the case on there.

people feel the need to moralize their preferences and it's so aggravating. like why am i reading how rhys is a terrible mate for not wanting to live without feyre and it's actually selfish of him to have made the death bargain. and saint rowan apparently would have no trouble ruling without aelin if that was what she wanted before she died (as if rowan would want to live without his mate too???) and that makes him the better mate and rowaelin the healthier ship somehow like eurkayyy 😵‍💫😵‍💫

the nasty aelin vs feyre comparisons are ESPECIALLY nasty on there ooo that's why i have every sjm related thing blocked on there.

the tamlin stans crossover with tog stans isn't one i've fully thought about but you're COOKING a bit, not too much on aelin though please spare her (tbh i haven't re-read tog in a couple of years did she really say something similar to that??? sjm is one weird white lady u guys but we knew this.) 😭 😭 like the way some people talk about the men in tog and compare them to the bat boys, you'd think tog was a renowned feminist series and wasn't dogged on by booktubers for years for the territorial, aggressive male shit. and you'd think the bat boys were the only sjm male characters with heteronormative, possessive natures.

[non-un-topo]

I realize I've been so flaky with responding to asks, finishing my drawings or fics I promised, etc. I've kind of been drifting in and out of tumblr without interacting much. Real life just finally started, and I need to build up a ton of motivation and find time before I can work on a fandom project. Just wanted to say that I'm still here and still working on stuff, just slowly.

[sindirimba]

i love blocking people who clearly don't really like nile but hide it in vague attempts at slightly lefty critical analysis of america~. you wouldn't think this very specific scenario was common enough for me to mention it and yet

[bakingmoomins]

suddenly remembered how andomaquynh had me by the throat a couple years ago and how it changed my brain chemistry and the way i interact with fandoms (don't do it anymore bc it burned me out lol), and now i'm mad again about how no one cares about toxic yuri </3

[adraughtofamortentia]

no one sent me an ask for this game/meme but i wanted to do it so here are two star trek blorbos

aos spock

aos kirk

[goldheartedsky]

Just wait til some people realize that Booker is the same brand of Queer White Mediterranean Guy that Nicky is.

[youareatragedy]

Is it really wrong to point out when ACOTAR fans are being very tunnel-visioned about these characters and suggest they read something else? I’ve noticed that they often get offended when people say “read more” to them. Exploring books beyond ACOTAR or SJM's works doesn’t hurt. In fact, it allows for experiencing more consistent and diverse world-building AND character. It helps us grow as readers.

You can argue that ACOTAR or TOG is the best thing ever and sure, to each their own. But when someone encourages you to expand your horizons by reading something else, it’s not an attack, it’s a way to help you grow as a person. I wish they stop getting so defensive just because their favorite series isn’t taken seriously by everyone.

In my opinion, despite its major flaws, ACOTAR is a great fandom to be part of because its large community and that it sparks a lot of discourse so at the very least, it forces people to sharpen their debate skills lol. That said, SJM isn’t the best author out there, though there are certainly worse ones. Trust me, expanding our reading horizons won’t hurt. In fact, it can help us understand why a favorite character might be flawed or why a hated character could actually be one of the best. Some people act like they’re afraid to challenge their own perspectives, as if stepping outside the ACOTAR and SJM bubble might make them enjoy it less (which might be why they resist doing so in the first place).

Let ACOTAR be the introduction to reading or the series that reignites a love for books, but allow your mind to explore something else too.

[offtorivendell]

I just recently finished the actors series and I was reading up on the mating bonds and I came across your post about Lucien and Elain’s mating bond from a few years ago and how it potentially could be wrong from the cauldron and I find it super interesting and have seen multiple theories on it! I do think that Azriel might be right and the cauldron made a mistake but that leads me to think about Nesta/Cassian so I was hoping you could help me understand their mating bond! Could this not be considered the same for them? Is their bond not considered made by the Cauldron when Nesta was thrown in as well or how does their bond differ from Elain/Luciens? I could be overlooking but the info on the bonds is also hard for me to wrap my head around 😂

Hi and thanks for stopping by and taking the time to read my nonsense!

I assume you are talking about this post from May 2021 - "What if the Cauldron was wrong?" - in which, to briefly sum up, I suggested that Elain and Azriel were actually meant to be mates, and that Lucien was chosen by the Cauldron as Elain's mate because Azriel was currently "dead" to its senses thanks to taking a poisoned ash arrow in his chest, and Lucien's true mate, Jesminda, had already died.

I know you sent this last week, I'm sorry about the wait - which, sadly, is not nearly the worst wait time for the asks I've been procrastinating on over the last couple of years lol, sorry to anyone who sent something I've flaked on - but funnily enough, there has been some renewed discourse this week.

In addition to this ask, I'd recommend checking out the following (bearing in mind that some may contain spoilers for the entire Maasverse):

The OP and my recent reblog of this post.

This similar ask I recently answered.

This thread and this thread by @silverlinedeyes.

This thread by @elriell.

This post by @icedflames.

This thread by @psychologynerd.

This thread by @wingedblooms.

This thread by @violetasteracademic.

These two posts, here (ACOTAR only) and here (with evidence from the Maasverse suggesting something might've happened to the Cauldron).

It's difficult to explain the entire (hypothesised) lore behind SJM's mating bonds without delving into the worlds of TOG and CC, so I'll attempt a very basic discussion about the Archeron sisters and bat boys (please note that all of these theories are due to a shared effort within the Elriel fandom, not limited to the accounts I tagged above); the following will be based on the theory that there are two types of bonds in Prythian: the original, mutual soul bonds, and offspring bonds for breeding purposes that may be a Cauldron-Made imitation of the original bonds.

In short, I believe Nesta and Cassian's bonus chapter from ACOMAF, and his behaviour towards her while everything was going wrong at Hybern, strongly suggested they already shared a mating bond that would have obviously predated Nesta being Made by the Cauldron at the end of the book; this would have been similar to Feyre and Rhys, who we know shared a bond that predated Feyre being Made by the High Lords. And not to make this Elriel, but for the sake of being complete, the first "family" dinner shared by all six brothers and sisters in the human lands appeared to show Azriel acting differently (in his own unique way) around Elain, just as Cassian was so obviously drawn to Nesta.

Lucien, on the other hand, didn't act in such a way that demonstrated, without any doubt, that he felt anything for Elain in particular before she went into the Cauldron at Hybern (which I discussed in my first mating bond meta that I linked above). Azriel, though? It's definitely murky, but imo his responses at Hybern, while downed with a poisoned arrow, could plausibly suggest he felt something for Elain, assuming SJM wants to go the "true bond" way. As Nesta, who could see through glamours as a human, said to Lucien right after he'd claimed Elain: "She is no such thing!"

Remember this passage between Feyre and Rhys, in the original trilogy?

“A mating bond can be rejected,” Rhys said mildly, eyes flickering in the mirror as he drank in every inch of bare skin I had on display. “There is choice. And sometimes, yes—the bond picks poorly. Sometimes, the bond is nothing more than some … preordained guesswork at who will provide the strongest offspring. At its basest level, it’s perhaps only that. Some natural function, not an indication of true, paired souls.” A smile at me—at the rareness, perhaps, of what we had. - ACOWAR, chapter 24

Rhys said that sometimes, the bond is nothing more than "preordained guesswork," which suggests that sometimes it is more than that. I (and many others, but definitely not everyone in the fandom) think that Feysand and Nessian have the "rarer" type of bond, between "true, paired souls," while Elucien does not. I guess there's always the possibility that Feysand and Nessian also share offspring bonds, but given what happened in ACOSF that would appear to be... unwise on the Cauldron's behalf. But who knows.

Anyway anon, I hope this response helps to clear the theory up for you. If you have read the rest of the Maasverse then the posts I linked above are a really good grounding in the theories behind why mating bonds may not all be created equal.

[grecoromanyaoi]

olivia reminded me of tog n the discourse around it was rly insane. i wasnt directly involved in thee disk horse but i remember at one point i had to make a post like hey u guys do know jerusalem isnt in the middle of the desert. u know that right. u can simply google that. its on mountains its relatively quite cold even. insane

[infiniteetcetera]

The recent discourse of “Cassian/Nesta don’t make sense as mates from a power standpoint” is so interesting (and true) but I also find it interesting that I don’t think there really is any other SJM world mates that parallel Cassian/Nesta?? Like there’s nothing about them that reads as mates to me. Whether you like them or not, Feysand, Rowaelin, Elucien, and Quinlar all make perfect sense to me as mates (even if it’s not in a romance sense but in like a powers/fantasy bond/parallels sense) The only SJM couple that comes close to Nessian in terms of parallels for me is (Nessian stans turn away now) Azriel/Mor.

There are actually a lot of interesting parallels here on the surface/in terms of scenes. I give you examples:

• Mor yanking her hand away from Az and Cassian yanking his hand away from Nesta, even though the action shows incredible (rare) vulnerability from Az/Nesta.

• The entire Cauldron/end of ACOMAF scene, Cassian’s reactions to Nesta being hurt and Azriel’s reactions to Mor getting hurt are the same.

• A complete lack of understanding for one another despite their connection?? Cassian and Nesta are almost never on the same page and Mor and Azriel still fail to understand each other after 500 years of friendship.

•Choosing Rhys/orders over each other, specifically when it matters most.

•The way Mor describes Azriel’s feelings of inadequacy and feeling undeserving of her are exactly how Nesta describes her feelings for Cassian and not being good enough for him (also neither Cas/Mor has ever told the other they’re wrong for feeling that way).

•Despite their own disregard of the others feelings, Cassian/Mor demonstrate a similar weird possessiveness over Nesta/Azriel, in particular i’m thinking of Cassians reaction to Neris (even though Nesta doesn’t even like Eris) and Mor’s reaction to Elriel (like you’re a Lesbian girl why do you care who Az is flirting with)

•A surface level parallel of powers that implies a subservience that isn’t normal with mating bonds (where powers are meant to compliment each other, even if one is slightly more powerful.) For example, Nesta’s power is death and Cassian is a war general (who delivers death, but is inherently subservient to it) and Mor’s power is “truth” while Azriel is an interrogator with a knife called truth teller (again sort of subservient to the idea and pursuit of truth, not equal to it)

•The implication of having no shared hobbies and one being forced into doing what the other likes (Nesta training to become more like Cas, Azriel going to Rita’s and generally putting himself out there to please Mor)

•The manipulation of emotions to force the other into doing what they want. Nesta goes from 0 to 100 in accepting the bond bc Cassian pushes this idea of being “shackled” to her and reminding her she’s inferior/not enough for him. Mor is constantly using Azriel’s feelings to force him to talk/agree to plans and just generally do what she/the IC wants

•The complete IGNORING of an implicit love confession (Az/Mor after the Autumn court debacle, Cas/Nes at the end of ACOWAR) even though ignoring it is weird and makes no sense.

WHY DO I POINT ALL THIS OUT? I think these parallels could mean some important things, especially because SJM could have chosen to ignore all the weird/bad things about Nessian and pretend they had a happily ever after following ACOSF but she didn’t. So, what are the options here?

1) I’ve seen this one a few times and I think it’s an interesting concept: there are “true” mating bonds, like those in TOG, and there are “cauldron” mating bonds, which have less to do with love/romance/compatibility and more to do with breeding and just generally creating a path the cauldron deems suitable. I think Mor/Azriel being “cauldron” mates would be a great way to explore this concept since Mor can’t love Azriel, giving Azriel a chance to be with someone purely out of choice (no matter who that is), and forcing the Archeron sisters to contemplate their mating bonds and whether they really want their mates (I focus more on Nes/Elain here, I hold true that Feysand is here to stay, though this could be an interesting contention point for Rhys)

2) This seems less likely to me but would be SO interesting: Rhys has the power to fake mating bonds to a certain degree and has been doing so when it suits him. Now let me specify one thing: Rhys did NOT fake his bond with Feyre, we do know this for certain. Based on his thoughts it’s also very likely he did NOT fake Elucien’s bond. HOWEVER i think it is totally plausible and makes sense for him to fake a bond between Mor/Azriel and Cassian/Nesta as a means of controlling Azriel and Nesta. We are told several times throughout the series Rhys doesn’t know how to control Az and the first time we see Az try to defy him (by being with Elain) what does Rhys immediately ask??? wHaT aBoUt mOr, aZ? Such a weird thing to bring up, except it’s not when you get to the basis of all Mor and Az’s interactions and why people think Az loves Mor (he does what she says and tries to make her happy, even to his own loss) except apparently when it suits Rhys. We’ve seen the SAME vibe with Nessian, and we know Rhys has been hardcore struggling to control Nesta. I think if he saw they had some mutual attraction, faking a bond there would make sense. it would also make sense they were able to avoid/ignore each other for so long (like the bond was faded) but then have an intense connection when around each other

3) These parallels mean nothing except SJM poorly wrote both of these pairings 💔

Truly, I know NOTHING for sure but I hope SJM chooses to do something interesting with these pairs rather then leaving them with weird icky damaging histories and ignoring them. Cant be too sure but I have some hope

[nikethestatue]

Ok I am a diehard Elriel don't get me wrong. But sometimes the EL/GAs just sound so fucking confident it throws me off?? Like how do they sound more confident than I do about Elriel sometimes, and I actually have the books on my side??

I'm so confused I genuinely thought they're just trolling the entire fandom the first time I saw this discourse - but to my disbelief they're actually legitimately diehard believing that the next book is going to be dual POV Gwyn/Azriel as they sidekick Nesta on her journey??? What?

Didn't we just read ACOSF? Wasn't THAT nesta's journey?

They just keep pulling out random TOG quotes and random CC quotes and highlights and shoving it in my face like SEE there's similar language here and that couple is also endgame!

I know Elriel has the most build up but each time I encounter an anti Elriel they just seem so utterly convinced that even I start to doubt what I just read on the page. Like sorry I didn't re-read 400 times and highlight the shit out of my book and pull out parallels between TOG and Cc. I've never read TOG so idk even how much weight their arguments have.

I know SJm will do whatever she wants. But what if she just decides to change her mind and write Elucien and Gwynriel? Idk how she's gonna do it but she might? It's going to piss me off

I think that most of their so-called confidence stems from the fact that they listen to each other, and not to SJM. If you exist in an echo chamber where you don't allow anything that might make you question your biases, then it's very easy to have 'confidence'.

They legit skip a whole NOVELLA, because it doesn't align with their wants. That's pretty drastic, I would think. Yet, like you said, they'll highlight any kind of passage in TOG that they think 'confirms' something.

After a while going through every Elriel scene and saying 'it doesn't matter' and 'that one also doesn't matter' makes you wonder why SJM even bothered writing all of this? If none of it matters?

When it comes to GA, I can understand their interactions. I understand the quiet encouragement. I understand the jokes and I understand why she looks up to him, and I get how she wants to show him how far she's gotten with her healing.

But GAs outright refuse to even consider Elriel. It doesn't exist! It never existed! SJM changed her mind! BASED ON WHAT???? If that's how you read the books, then I would very much question your 'confidence'.