#lucifer speculation

[cloud-ya]

sassy self-hug. also some speculative skeleton

now you gotta excuse me if the skeleton doesn't make sense or got some incorrectness (though how much can you really judge something incorrect in a fantasy creature) for I never really studied biology lol. the general idea was to combine bird and dinosaur anatomy with mammalian structures, and figure out the wing-arms. this may as well be excused with the scientists in her lore throwing shit at wall and seeing what sticks

[the-stress-express]

Greetings, my Lovelies, I hope y’all are having a great day/night!

And if you’re not, I hope it gets better!

Anyway, I yoinked another Hazbin Hotel TikTok I made from my page for you guys to enjoy here.

Lucifer could probably use some hugs…

I hope y’all enjoy!

Stay hydrated!

[a-dauntless-daffodil]

kinda bitter sweet how hopeful Vaggie was about the whole "Charlie maybe you should call your dad" thing

She was all smiles and worry during the call- Vaggie! Usually the first one to point out realistic flaws in any hopeful plan!- and then she was friendly when actually meeting him, smiling again as Charlie pitched the hotel and asked for his help...

(Vaggie doesn't smile just for anyone. it's either bc she's happy, or she's looking at Charlie)

...he, Lucifer, is the only other angel in hell she knows of. But he didn't get there the same way she did. Did she not think about that?

or maybe the whole 'helped raise the woman she loves and being emotionally distant from him hurt Charlie, meaning they DID have something good before that' just meant so much to Vaggie

she really... wanted to trust Lucifer with Charlie's happiness, didn't she. And she WAS right about that in the end, but, I dunno. The moment when she turns away so her good eye isn't facing him, smile gone, as he rejects Charlie's dream for the hotel at first... it hurts

so good though, seeing him pull through for Charlie in the end with her there to watch. It's family vibes, yeah? Them BOTH helping Charlie back up after the hotel battle

and that's good for CHARLIE obviously! She really NEEDED that, the woman who's supported her for years (helped her get this far) AND the dad she's finally inspired to hope again (sees how far she's gotten and thinks it's worth it)

it's good for Vaggie too, maybe. She was right. Lucifer wasn't threat she needed to guard against

(not like Adam and Lute-)

and there's a difference between being imprisoned in hell and preferring it to heaven. There's a difference between sharing something you don't think will cause any harm, and choosing to do what people tell you is wrong knowing they'll hurt you for it

he's not the same kind of 'fallen' angel that she is

but even if he was an angel first, it's not the most important thing about him anymore. Now he's Charlie's dad. He loves her. Vaggie knows the feeling. maybe that's why she trusted him

[plumomi]

Yearning for season two to give us Canon Lilith Personality™ and open the fic writer floodgates for a wider variety of Hellradio stories.

There's a lot of pure smutfic out there already, and that's all well and good if that's your thing, but the Possibilities of exploring a fucked up polycule between Hell's monarchs and our resident radio demon beyond that, and all the political implications and drama that would entail, intrigue me to no end. I'm honestly so here for it. Need it in all its Messy Glory.

[someoneinthecrowd0757]

I have crafted a hazbin hotel season 2 bingo card as I’m so stupidly excited I feel like I’m gonna vibrate outta my flesh prison <3

[Here’s mine ;) ]

[embrose]

You know what I wanna see in Hazbin Hotel season 2? (Besides at least 12 episodes)

Characters from Helluva Boss. At least few of the Deadly Sins, to be precise.

'Cos I'm so curious about Lucifer's dynamic with them. I mean, is the lore still that they fell from heaven with Lucifer, or are they hell-born? Are they friends, or more like family? Perhaps more like co-workers?

I would honestly love to see some friends vibes, with a dash of found family. Maybe they'd help Luci feel less lonely after a long time of isolation. I don't have super high hopes tho, there's lots of story to go through before we got to fluff like that. But one can dream~

[strangebiology]

Seraphim Angel Anatomy

What are our thoughts on the anatomy of a seraph angel with 6 wings? How does that work? (Outside of it being magic. Let's have fun with science.)

The biblical description of the six-winged Seraphim angels is super minimal (Isa 6:2, 6, with some interpretation here.) But let's just say for reasons they look like people with 6 wings.

To start: What is a seraph related to? In both biblical and Hazbin Hotel lore, it's implied that (maybe some?) angels can breed with humans, which suggests that they're mammals, and very close to humans. But...I wonder if that has to do with shapeshifting or other magic? Bible nerds chime in. It's also just as interesting/valid to consider bug anatomy, and I encourage bug artists to draw a human-ish body with wings attached in dragonfly or spider style or something.

A number of people have explored the concept of angel anatomy by looking at humans and birds, like DCRoleplays on Deviantart. I also recall this image by Uzlo on Deviantart pointing out that you need pectoral muscles to move your arms/wings, so...if you have two arms and two wings, all of which move independently, you might need four pecs.

Alternatively, here's an extremely cool gif by @squidlife-crisis showing a human ribcage with human arms, the keel of a bird, and what looks like layered pectoral muscles for arms and wings. So, rather than multiple visible chests, an angel with the skin on would appear to just have a bigger chest.

But now add MORE wings. Would we have a huge chest with lots of layers of pecs attached to the keel...and would you need to change the shape of the keel to handle so many attachments?

Or, is someone gonna draw Lucifer or the other seraphim with 8 pecs? Will it be me? For science, obviously.

What are your thoughts?

[turtleofthehollow]

I hope in season 2 we get a bunch of Lucifer in full on Dad Mode with everyone at the hotel

Even better if it’s unintentional, he’s just so old he can’t help but see everyone as his children in need of guidance and safety

The real kicker is if everyone not so secretly loves the treatment and constantly seeks him out to receive the fatherly love they were deprived of in both life and death

He’s completely oblivious to it, and because he’s desperate for connection he happily gives them the parental affection they crave

The only one resistant to it is Alastor who refuses to see him as a fatherly figure, but he also hates being out of the loop, so he reluctantly plays along and accidentally works through his daddy issues

[luckykittysshowerthoughts]

The Fall as an Act of Mercy

When we first hear about what happened in the Great Celestial War, why the brothers fell, it's easy to go, "WTF". It's easy to blood-boilingly angry over the brothers' fate, how much they didn't deserve what they got. It's easy to consider their damnation a heartless, cruel decision, a punishment they never deserved.

But looking at it closer, it gets a lot more complicated. I don't think it was ever about what they "deserved" at all.

I want you to ask yourself. If Father was willing to punish Lilith as harshly as he wanted to just for falling in love with/saving a human, what do you think his punishment for a full-on, violent rebellion would have been?

It's always felt strange to me, that Lilith's punishment was so much harsher than her brothers'. Even if falling in love with a human and altering their lifespan was a grievous enough sin to warrant death or endless darkness, was what the brothers did any less? Compared to Lilith's projected punishment, both in the OG and in Nightbringer, the brothers' fate was significantly softer. Yes, it was harsh, and yes it was beyond traumatizing. But they at least had a chance. They had the room to adapt, and grow, and heal, and overcome. And to a degree, they already have. All things considered, it was a pretty tame punishment compared to what Father was fully ready to dish out on their sister.

...which is why I think Father had nothing to do with it at all.

In Season 3, Luke specifically implies that it was Michael who cast the brothers down.

This could have been ignorance on Luke's part- he wasn't alive back then so he could be misconstruing details from what he's heard- but I don't think so. Not only do more traditional biblical media often portray Michael as the one to cast Lucifer down as well, but even in Obey Me itself, the idea of Father being responsible for it (either doing it himself or ordering Michael to) just doesn't add up.

It's not just that the punishment seems unlike him. That's a large part of it, but there's also another hint from Nightbringer that feels like a dead giveaway.

...I'm sorry, but that just makes absolutely no sense. Even by the Celestial Realm's clearly wacked-out mindset, it makes no sense. Why would the Celestial Realm be angry at the Devildom for taking in the people they themselves sent there?

...unless it wasn't the Celestial Realm's decision at all.

Michael wasn't supposed to do what he did.

So why did he do it?

Remember what I said earlier, about how it seemed out-of-character for Father to give the brothers such a weak punishment. I think it's far more likely that Father wanted them either dead or sentenced to the same fate as Lilith.

And I think Michael couldn't do it.

Imagine you're Michael in this situation. You're fighting this war, against your own brother, who you love deeply. In the heat of the moment, you're about to finally stab him and... then you realize.

Why are you doing this?

You can't do it. You can't kill him.

But you can't just back away. Lucifer is already consumed by the heat of the moment; if you let your guard down for even a second, he's not going to realize you're no longer fighting, he's just going to see a chance to go in for the kill. And even if he doesn't, even if he miraculously calms down in the face of everything, what fate awaits him? If you don't do this, what will Father do to him? It won't be a quick and easy death; that's for sure.

You look around. The other six are also fighting against other angels. You see your other brothers and sisters tearing each other apart, just as you and Lucifer were. You realize you can't bear to kill your own brother, and you can't bear to let anyone else die either.

You need to stop it somehow. And there's only one way to make that happen.

You have to get the seven of them as far away from the Celestial Realm as possible.

It's the only way. That's the only way to end the bloodshed. That's the only way to end the war without execution.

Where do you send them?

The one place they have a friend, of course.

You knew about Lucifer and that demon prince. You knew. You know your brother; he isn't as slick as he thinks he is. You weren’t an idiot; you knew there was no way Father was sending Lucifer down for “diplomatic meetings” that often. You played dumb, you turned the other cheek, but you always knew. And now, you just had to hope that whatever unholy bond they had ran deep enough for Lord Diavolo to help him in the wake of what you were about to do next.

You back away, and you cast your magic. You watch them plummet, eyes glazed with shock and emptiness. Raphael stares at you in disbelief.

"Michael, what did you do?!"

"I don't know."

And that is that.

In short, I don't think the brothers' damnation was a punishment. I believe it was the desperate act of someone who didn't want anyone to die. I believe it was the lesser of many evils, in a situation where there was no right answer. I believe it was an act of mercy.

[blue-rose-soul]

My train of thought took me on a journey (cw for gore and eye trauma):

Lol, Lucifer threatening to cut off Alastor's head and cut out his eyes was kind of overkill.

Ooh, what if that was foreshadowing?

Now I hope Alastor gets his eyes sliced out in season 2 (sorry Al, I love you).

The Vees are going to be the main antagonists of season 2.

Vox hypnotizes people via eye contact or when they watch a screen he controls.

Alastor's weaker without his staff; he may be vulnerable to Vox's powers potentially for the first time.

What if Alastor gouges out his own eyes to keep Vox from hypnotizing him!?

What if because of the angelic wound on his chest, there's no guarantee his eyes will regenerate?

Charlie and her crew finding him like this, terrified and wounded.

Alastor lashing out violently, forcing Lucifer to step in to subdue him.

Lucifer watching the trails of blood running down his mangled eye sockets and feeling violently ill.

Aaaaaand that's all I got.

[a-cold-day-in-pentagram-city]

Here’s a thought I’ve been toying with for a while.

What if angels undergo metamorphosis: starting life wingless, and eventually building cocoons from which they emerge as adults? (It would be rather poetic for Heavenborn, like Winners, to essentially die and be reborn in order to gain their wings.)

Lucifer always assumed that his daughter took more after her human side than her angel side. Then one day, Charlie instinctively starts building herself a cocoon; making her father realize that-whether due to her human genes, or the fact that she grew up in Hell-her development was simply delayed.

[funnyifwebothgotitwrong]

One possible plot line for season 3 I have heard about was "Heaven misplaced Baby Jesus", which would be neat because it would actually explain why Heaven needed Aziraphale the incompetent principality rebellious angel saboteur traitor to take charge of the search. He knows Earth, and he has experience in finding a misplaced (Anti-)Christ.

But a) lost Anti-Christ has already been done in book & season 1

And b) the Jesus of the Second Coming is supposed to arrive in his fully adult form, not as a baby.

And suddenly it popped into my head: what if Jesus wasn't misplaced but instead very deliberately pulled a Lucifer? (Not the Good Omens Lucifer, Lucifer Morningstar from the show Lucifer, which is based on the Lucifer from Sandman.)

What if he said, you know what Mom, I'm done, I'm not helping to destroy the world and judge people, I'm going on vacation, booked a flight (on Thy Kingdom Airways?) and will be at the beach with a martini. Pretty sure I've earned it. So long! ... and don't call.

And then Crowley & Aziraphale have to find him first because without him they also cannot stop this 2nd Apocalypse!

[correlance]

The Seven Archangels in "Hazbin Hotel"

We can probably make an educated guess of who the angels in this image are, based off of the Seven Archangels in Biblical folklore:

Michael, Archangel of Mercy ("Michael the Merciful")

Gabriel, Herald of Visions, and Archangel of Justice

Uriel, Guardian of the Garden of Eden, Archangel of Knowledge and Wisdom

Chamuel (Camael), Archangel of Hope

Raphael, Archangel of Peace and Healing

Jophiel, Archangel of Beauty and Art

Zadkiel, Archangel of Kindness (likely replacement for Lucifer)

Of these, most are male, but Uriel is sometimes feminized as "Urielle, Eurielle or Orielle". I could see Jophiel, Chamuel (Camael), and Zadkiel being female, nonbinary, or agender, depending on design.

The main four are Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, and Chamuel:

"And the Lord said to Gabriel: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have.'" — 1 Enoch 10:9 [...] "And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named [Chamuel].' And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days." — Enoch 40:9

From this, we can discern that Gabriel, Archangel of Justice, likely authorized the exterminations of Hell under Adam and Lute.

My thoughts are that each of the Archangels governs one of the Seven Paths, which "winners" can devote themselves to in Heaven:

Michael - Path of Mercy (Heaven's bureaucrats)

Gabriel - Path of Justice (Adam, Lute, Vaggie)

Uriel - Path of Wisdom (Heaven's scientists + philosophers)

Chamuel - Path of Hope (Heaven's priests + therapists)

Raphael - Path of Healing (Heaven's doctors + nurses)

Jophiel - Path of Beauty (Heaven's artists)

Zadkiel - Path of Kindness (angels who help humanity)

[ineffablyruined]

On this episode of things that keep me up at night:

I wonder if we'll get a mirror of how Aziraphale was manipulated by the Metatron, but with Crowley, in s3.

Picture it:

Crowley's only friend for the last 6000 years has just rejected him and left him behind.

Lucifer shows up with a bottle of gin, which, okay it's not his favorite, but the thought is nice, right? And whatever he has to say must be super important for the Devil himself to show up just to speak with a demon with no affiliation to Hell.

And he starts praising Crowley. How right Crowley was to stop the first Armageddon, even if Lucifer hadn't seen it at the time. Hell was understaffed after all, they would have been decimated. How strategic Crowley's mind is. How brilliant he'd been at his temptations.

The Second Coming will wipe out Earth and demons alike. And wouldn't Crowley consider coming back to Hell to work with him to stop it again? They need someone with experience stopping these things, someone who knows how the Earth works better than anyone.

And then he starts talking about how toxic Heaven is. How he heard that Crowley's angel compatriot returned to the fold. How worried Crowley must be about his friend.

If Crowley will just come back, Lucifer will make sure that nothing happens to the angel. Hell will guarantee that if Aziraphale falls (through no fault of his own, of course, it's just that Heaven is so fickle like that, just look at Crowley's own fall), or even if he doesn't fall, but just needs a safe harbour from Heaven, he will have a safe place waiting for him in Hell. Protected.

Maybe it feels just like hanging out with Luci and the guys all those ages ago before the Fall, before the War. Maybe someone actually wants him around.

How is he supposed to turn down help saving the world when his usual partner is gone? How is he supposed to turn down an offer of safety for Aziraphale if it all goes sideways, like he knows Heaven will.

And maybe later he understands how Aziraphale could have gone back to Heaven, because he just did the same thing with Hell.

[sapphic-agent]

I'm curious! What are your thoughts on Lilith? What are your theories and predictions on her? What do you hope to see from the show on her?

Thank you for asking!

I have a lot of thoughts on Lilith. For one, we know it can't be a coincidence that both her and Alastor left around the same time. We know Alastor isn't at full power because of a deal he made. There's a lot pointing to Lilith being the one he made a deal with, ergo her being the one who has him on a leash.

It explains why he sought Charlie out in the first place. He made it clear in the pilot (yes I finally watched it) that he doesn't think Sinners can be redeemed. So for him to disappear at the same time as Lilith and then reappear and partner with her daughter very much implies that she's the one he's indebted to.

Lilith and Adam made a deal and it's heavily implied that it was to grant her access to heaven. I think that Adam offered Lilith access to heaven to get her to stop influencing the uprising (as it's implied she does this in the first episode).

So what is Lilith and Alastor's deal and how did it come to be?

This is a stretch, but I think Alastor was hurt after a fight, maybe on the brink of death (either after his fight with Vox- Valentino says Alastor almost defeated him, this implies their fight ended in a draw- or maybe one of the Sins). Lilith found him and helped him, but didn't restore him to full power. Since, due to her deal, she could no longer encourage the uprising, she ensured that Charlie would be able to with the help of a powerful, cunning ally who could teach her how to influence, encourage, and lead.

(I mean, come on. The one thing Alastor taught her was how to use a smile to her advantage. To inspire her friends and leave her enemies guessing. And then he brought her to Rosie to test her abilities in gathering an army. Alastor is there to teach her, whether he shows it or not)

Charlie's love for her people had to have come from Lilith. Lucifer thinks lowly of Sinners after his attempts were crushed by Heaven, so it had to have been Lilith who encouraged that care. It was likely her influence that pushed Charlie to have those ideals. If More Than Anything is truly implying that she kept Charlie away from Lucifer, it could be so that his pessimism towards Sinners couldn't dissuade her.

Did you guys know that Charlie is apparently only 200 years old? Lucifer and Lilith have been in Hell for thousands of years, since the story of Adam and Eve. Isn't it kind of odd that they only had a kid in the 1800s? And why, after even that, did Lilith only get into Heaven 7 years before the current events?

Call me crazy, but I think Lilith has a game plan here. Here's what I think is happening:

Lilith loves her people. She doesn't think lowly of them because they're "bad people," she thinks they should be free to express themselves and be who they are

Lucifer regrets his choices. He regrets giving humans knowledge and blames himself for humanity being evil. Lilith realizes this and starts to resent him for it

Lilith thinks her people don't deserve to rot in Hell, as she resonates them being damned to her and Lucifer being punished when they had good intentions. She starts encouraging them to uprise and demand better

Sera, worried about the citizens of Heaven, gives Adam permission to start the Extermination

Lilith recognizes that this is a losing battle. Heaven is too strong and demons don't have the means to fight back. Her songs of influence haven't been enough and her people are suffering. So she convinces Lucifer to have a baby. Someone who will bring in a new era, and someone Heaven will never take as a serious threat until it's too late

Lilith has Charlie and raises her with love for their people and strong ideals. She tells the story of how her and Lucifer met, painting them as good people with good intentions and stressing that they were unfairly punished. Charlie takes this to heart, also wanting better for their people. Lilith keeps Charlie away from Lucifer, afraid that he'll have her thinking the worst of Sinners

As she raises Charlie, Lilith waits for the right moment she can put her plan into action. She happens upon the Radio Demon Alastor on the brink of death and takes the opportunity. She heals him, but seals his power, promising to restore it if he acts as a mentor to Charlie and teaches her how to lead the Demons against Heaven. Her end goal is either to complete the uprising against Heaven or redeem Sinners. I'm not sure, but getting rid of the Exterminations for good is definitely part of it. (I also think it's possible that Alastor challenged her, she made a deal depending on the outcome of their fight, and he lost. Either one works in this situation)

After making the deal with Alastor, Lilith reaches out to Adam. She agrees to stop the uprising if she can be welcomed to Heaven. This isn't to enjoy Heaven, it's to get herself out of the picture so that Sera and the other angels won't suspect that an uprising is what's actually happening

This is actually kind of supported by the deal Alastor and Charlie made. He gets a favor of his choosing at any time where she doesn't hurt anyone. This could very well be either getting her to convince Lilith to absolve their deal or pushing her into becoming the leader of Hell and liberating Hell, therefore fulfilling the deal.

Some people are suspecting that Lilith betrayed her husband, daughter, and people to live in paradise. And I can't believe that. Lilith, from what we've seen, takes pride in her people and was close with her daughter. And she's someone who prioritizes freedom, expression, knowledge, etc. I can't see her being content to live peacefully in Heaven. Ultimately, I think she's the one pulling the strings here and making sure Charlie is ready to be a leader when the time comes, liberating their people.

Lute is in for a ride awakening when Lilith does return to Hell

[its-queenofthesilence]

I feel by series end, Emily's and Charlies positions will change

The theory is that by series end, Emily will fall yes, but Charlie will ascend. Or become god. Either or. Basically swap spots. Evidence: Sera warns Emily about the threat of falling, while in the intro for Season 1 when Charlie is telling the viewers about her parents' backstory and the extermination, her silhouette is displayed in white like the angels.

Idk, call it just a hunch. But she giving me Madoka (in terms of ascending) vibes.