#st discourse

[reb-the-wise]

i can’t believe somebody just said the duffers’ writing is bad because of the PARALLELS dude you’re just densely superficial i’m afraid

[pinkeoni]

I feel as though there is a desire to completely dichotomize byler when they don’t need to be polar opposites in order to fit together. They are individuals, but it’s their differences AND their similarities that make their dynamic what it is

[lavenderstobins]

anon saying this when maybe a solid 70% of steddie fics sideline stobin/robin overall is so… baffling.

the ronance tag is dominated by male ships (primarily steddie) whereas so many steddie/steve fics don’t include robin at all. it’s rarely addressed. why is it that sapphics, who already only have scraps of content, are the ones demonised for not focusing on stobin?

people don’t like ronance because of two main reasons. 1) they’re not a mlm ship and 2) a big percentage of steve fans hate nancy for ‘breaking steve’s heart’, or thinks it’s a ‘betrayal’ for robin to date nancy and still be best friends with steve.

As someone who is neutral on ronance, I think people don't particularly like it because, from what I've seen, sometimes fics sideline, downplay, or even ignore Robin's friendship with Steve. I know this also happens in other ship fics but I think because it's his ex it gets under skin more?

Disclaimer: this is heavily sarcastic!

I agree, our fandom sidelines Steve too much. He only has over 43,615 fics written about him on ao3! Ronance must have so much more than that!

Wait...it looks like there are nearly 7 times as many Steve fics as Ronance, how peculiar.

Well I guess it makes sense. The fandom likes Steve, but the Ronance fandom ignores him. That's why if you remove the tags Steve Harrington and Steve Harrington & Robin Buckley you lose nearly two thirds of all Ronance fics!

And if you filter the completely unrelated tag Steve Harrington/Eddie Munson tag on Ronance fics, surely the vast majority of Ronance fanfiction will remain? Right?

Ok, I'm not being sarcastic now: if you want to read fan fiction including Steve Harrington or Steddie or platonic Stobin, go ahead! I enjoy reading platonic Stobin fics too, and I've defended their friendship multiple times. However, saying people dislike Ronance shippers for not centering a completely different character and friendship seems a bit unfair to me, especially when statistically (as shown above), this fandom, including the Ronance fans, are very focused on Steve.

I'm sorry if I come across as rude, I'm not trying to be, it's just quite frustrating how this f/f ship is criticised for not centering around a male character enough. You can prefer reading Ronance fics that talk about Steve and about that friendship, but it's also ok if they don't. Do people criticize Steddie shippers for not talking about platonic Stobin enough? I don't think so.

[witsserviceablesubstitute]

The more I think about Anharion and Sarcean the more I'm convinced they are an allegory for queer trauma and Will will have to embrace, accept, and forgive himself in order change his narrative.

In which case I don't think the collar is compulsion but something else. James - once Anharion in a past life and a former novitiate in this one (he knows all the stories) - did say it wasn't. "All the stories are lies" and "the collar was working but he felt no compulsion", as well as his speculation the collar became tawdry wishful thinking by those who objectified him.

In many ways James has already accepted himself and embraced Anharion, and in so doing made himself a villain to the Light, polite society, and a self righteous religious order. Everything he does is repellent to them but they're also obsessed with him. He is unmentionable but always present. He is condemned for killing the Stewards but they're surprised when reminded they've been trying to kill him since he was 11. Of course he needed to die, he's an abomination. The Stewards were doing the Lor– Lady's work by killing such a corrupt creature.

If Sarcean and Anharion are queer allegory then there is definitely more to their relationship and perceived villainy than what we've been told.

I'm especially struck by how the Light always calls the Lady Sarcean's former love – using language that describes a tragic romance. All the while they dismiss Anharion as a perverse sexual fixation when it's clear in Sarcean's POV that it's Anharion who was the love of Sarcean's life. That Sarcean had loved him long before the Lady. That Sarcean chases pieces of Anharion throughout all his chosen lovers. That it's Anharion he bound to him across time and space. It mirrors how often queer relationships are belittled, the acceptable heteronormative relationship romanticized.

Will/James and Sarcean/Anharion's kinky preferences play into that too. There's a pressure for them to conform and never give into what they want to indulge.

[theladyrebecca2]

^ This!! @merth-or-nothin your tags are perfect

[artbean]

@eddiemonth day 20: cryptids/folklore

if i die today, it won't be so hard / everything scares me, but never the dark / stay acting brave, but i'm too faint of heart / to pull out the thorn in my side, or: an alternate cover for the upcoming eddie novel (version without text under the cut!)

[cypherheartnokey]

POV — You’re Theorizing on Tumblr: A Story in Four Parts

CHAPTER 1 — THEORIZING (engaging with fandom in good faith):

You theorize with good intentions. You want to bring content to the fandom, spark conversation, explore cultural/media references, analyze character arcs and human nature, and keep the fandom alive.

You’re learning, sharing, trying to connect dots and offer something insightful.

Your theory is pro-Byler. Your theory is important to Byler. You’ve put thought into this.

CHAPTER 2 — FANDOM RESPONSE (instant backlash):

Instead of dialogue or silence, you get hate in the tag.

You get aggressive anon asks, passive-aggressive remarks, ridicule, mockery. You’re called delusional—mostly by people who didn’t even read what you wrote, so in truth, they don’t know WTF they’re talking about.

People say they’re “triggered” or “traumatized” by the idea of a ship like Bychance (???), even though your theory is literally about supporting Byler and deepening the conversation.

Now they’re trying to push you out of the tag completely.

CHAPTER 3 — FIGHTING BACK (using your actual account):

You make non-anonymous posts. You defend yourself. You respond to the accusations, the mockery, the generalizations.

You explain why theorizing is fun, important—vital, even—for fandom culture.

And you point out (fairly) that if someone doesn’t have the same level of media literacy or contextual understanding, maybe they should approach those who do with a little more curiosity and humility instead of condescension and hostility.

CHAPTER 4 — VILLAINIZATION (the plot twist):

Suddenly, you’re the one “causing drama.” You’re collectively accused of being bored, misled, toxic. You get mass-blocked. Your theories are twisted into something they’re not.

There are even claims of anonymous death threats floating around, and no one knows if they came from milevens or someone else—but somehow you as a community get blamed or associated to it.

You’re labeled either a problem or a delusional dumbass—for posting thoughtful, researched, pro-Byler content. You tried to contribute. You got dragged instead. 🤪

I just… have so many questions for those of you who’ve engaged in any of the behavior above:

…Do you act like this in real life too?

…Why do you immediately shut down and ridicule any different ideas or possibilities?

…Why do you engage in generalizations and hate mob mentality so easily?

Ultimately, this isn’t really about me or these ships or Stranger Things to be honest. I can always take hate & it won’t stop me from posting anything frankly.

I’m just a bit confused, and concerned for some of you. Do you really want to live like this? In your life, the spaces you inhabit, with the people around you? Even as a minor, do you want to grow into that type of person?

It’s a bit embarrassing. Do better.

[anghraine]

ajk;dfjk;ad So, I was grabbing some screenshots from "I, Mudd" for another rambling post, as one does. But in the process, I noticed yet another little moment I'd missed before.

At the end, the whole main crew is having a great time smirking at Mudd after their community theatre production as they abandon him to his largely self-inflicted fate (fair). Kirk is the ringleader but they're all up to their ears in it. But the others mostly just laugh; only two of them do the bitchy little hand waves as they leave—Kirk and Uhura.

It's extremely in character for them but I'm still astounded that I never culturally osmosed how great their controlled yet chaotic bisexual trickster brotp energy is. It's a fantastic episode for their rapport in general, too:

(TFW you and your friend/boss are fantastic at being dishonest and causing problems, and you're having a great time with both)

[star-41306]

Did you guys know you can block tags?? and people??? and there is also a not interested button??? and, YOU ARE ALLOWED TO USE THEM !!!!

[geekysteven]

[thats-ill-eagle]

(Also applies to both yuri and hetero ships.)

It's all about the balance. Even if the abused partner is also an asshole, if they are mistreated by their partner without returning 'the favor' to them, that's not 'toxic relationship that is such a shitshow on both sides, that it's entertaining to watch'. It's just abuse that should not under any circumstances be romanticized or downplayed by the show/movie or its fandom, even if it's fictional.

[embers-of-night]

I saw a lot of bylers shipping reddie as well, so I just want to know how many of us there are.

[cringelordofchaos]

Give it up for my dad who thought the van scene somehow implied Will was in love with EL ☠️

[luminaryofblood]

Tiny Nose Kisses!

[fictionadventurer]

St. John Henry Newman in the main text of Apologia Pro Vita Sua: I'm not going to address all of Mr. Kingsley's accusations. I'm just going to tell the full story of how my theological opinions developed over time, so I can refute the main charge that I was dishonest about my beliefs.

Newman in the appendix: I'm taking every one of those accusations and I am explaining in detail every single way he lacks reading comprehension. I am pulling quotes. I am keeping score.

[nettlebrand]

Proshippers are so weird because every argument they make is so easily debunked it's actually funny

First of all let's define a proshipper since everyone loves to argue over that. I will also acknowledge the history of the word

Proship in it's early years was defined as proship/anti harassment. It was a term used by people who believed people should not be harassed over what they ship.

But that's its term years ago, and the meaning of words change. Let's not be stupid when it comes to this argument. Proshipper is a term now often used by people who ship problematic things like incest, minor x adult, and abuser x victim.

THIS IS NOT A TERM USED BY PEOPLE WHO WRITE ABOUT THOSE RELATIONSHIPS AND PROTRAY THEM AS UNHEALTHY.

It's a term NOW USED by people who ENJOY and actively ship and romantize those relationships. You can write about a victim x abuser without romantizing it. Proshippers romantize it.

Now that we have defined it, we can tear apart every argument they try to use to justify doing it.

"It's my coping mechanism! My therapist said so!"

I'm going to state my credentials right off the bat. I have a degree in psychology and am currently getting my doctorate degree in it. While yes, many therapists say it can be used as a coping mechanism, it is a TEMPORARY coping mechanism. It is not a long-term mechanism that we recommend at all. On top of that, we certainly do not tell you to post it online for the public to see. No therapist would tell you to do that, and any therapist that says it's okay to do that does have you not have your best interest. We KNOW you will harassed and attacked on the internet if you post stuff like that online. It's why we specifically tell you that if you HAVE to use this TEMPORARY coping mechanism, to not do it publicly.

"Fiction doesn't effect reality! Grow up!"

I'm not defending the people doing the attacking either. IF YOU SEND DEATH THREATS OR HARASS PROSHIPPERS, YOU ARE BAD TOO! No one deserves death threats or to be doxxed because of fictional media even if it is not everyones taste. But therapist can not control what goes down on the internet, and neither can anyone else.

"Well it's fictional! It does effect reality but it's fiction that makes it okay!"

Fiction DOES effect reality it is why we enjoy fictional things so much in the first place. Saying fiction doesn't affect reality, which ignores so much human history and the basics of WHY people create fiction in the first place. Fiction DEFINITELY affects reality, and it affects the human mind greatly. It's why people can laugh cry and get angry at media in the first place. That argument makes no sense because if it didn't affect reality, it wouldn't be a coming mechanism, which is what a lot of proshippers say why they proship.

Romantizing a relationship other people have been through and trying to portray it as a good and well thing is frankly gross and disgusting. It hurts victims a lot and can make them question their own abuse they went through. It's not a good thing at all. If you honestly think on any speck of this planet that romantizing an abusive relationship, whether incest pedophilic or rape in any way is okay because it's fiction, you are honestly not much better than actual pedophiles and abusers. They get off to hurting people, and you also get off to the hurting aspect. Yes, even if you yourself are a victim. Being a victim doesn't mean you get a pass to do whatever you want, and I think a lot of people need to remember that. You do not get a pass to romantize abuse no matter what. It's not a good thing at all to romantize and it can make you worse and question your own abuse.

"Calling us just as bad as real abusers boo!"

I will. I will stand by that, too. Because that's how it starts. My abuser also started with "just writings" and "just drawings." Because that's how it always begins. In psychology, we can tell how far someone will go based on the things they consume and how they consume it. It gets to a point where the person consuming it will be a victim or be an abuser. It's why so many pedophiles when they are caught, have CP on their computers because "it was just images." I'm not saying all proshippers are going to turn out to be pedophiles or abusers because thats obviously not true. But the route you are going down is an addiction, and you eventually won't be able to stop even if you just stop at drawn images. It's why you crave to do it so much and can not stop. It's the rush you get of posting it online to the thrill of being caught. You enjoy every aspect of it. It's an addiction.

"You are dismissing/disrespecting real victims by comparing CP to drawn/written CP!"

I myself am a victim. A very severe one. There are pictures of me out on the deep web somewhere when I wasn't even in double digits. I am not disrespecting what happened to me or other kids. While I do agree with the argument that drawing a fictional child is not as bad as real pictures of children, it is still disgusting to be making at all. It's also disrespectful to victims to be romantizing stuff like that publicly, so you aren't allowed to use that argument as if you cared for every victim, you wouldn't be posting it publicly.

"You are limiting artistic creativity! This is conservative ideologies that wants to censor work!"

If censoring the romantization of abuse being portrayed as good is wrong, then I want to be wrong. Yes, everyone should have artistic freedom, but why in any way would you WANT to be known as the author or person who portrays pedophiles in a good way. Who portrays abuse as okay and romantic. Why is that something you want in your life. No one should want that, and if you do, I encourage you to seek a strong amount of help. Censoring the portrayal of abuse as good shouldn't be a controversial statement at all, but it somehow it. If you are writing pedophiles incest and abuse as a BAD THING and you MAKE SURE, it's portrayed as a bad thing that isn't proshipping. It's when you romantize it and try to treat it as a "cute fun silly >w<." Thing that I see MANY proshippers do that's bad. Yes, I want that censored. Especially when it's easily accessible to minors. Proshippers do not care if minors can access their work, and it's very obvious seeing it. Even if it isn't inherently, nsfw minors shouldn't be seeing and interacting with ANY FORM OF MEDIA that portrays abuse as good.

"What about NSFW artist!?? You don't want them censored!?"

I don't see this argument made as often, but it's still one I want to talk about. Most nsfw artists I see make... normal art that doesn't revolve around romantizing abuse in some way. While obviously there are exceptions, nsfw art is aimed towards adults, which makes censoring a lot easier, and theres an understanding between sex vs relationship. There's a difference between porn with bdsm aspects in it vs. a fanfic writing on two characters, and the abuse is romantical. Sex is different than a romantic relationship.

"Well my artwork is aimed towards adults! Adults can understand it better!"

Adults can still have an awful time with abusive and struggling relationships. Adults can also be uncomfortable and not want to see their abuse portrayed in a good light. While I agree that many adults can understand and differ fiction from reality, that doesn't change the fact that romantizing abuse in any way isn't okay. What a lot of proshippers tend to not understand is how its portrayed that's the problem.

I am a HUGE FAN of enemies to lovers. If they didn't try to kill each other once is it really love/j. But the major thing is it's the build-up and actual relationship that's different. If two characters are in love and one is on a lower power level, then another and just keep getting abused and beaten and mistreated even when they aren't enemies anymore. There's the romantizing abuse. A majority of the time, most don't even add warnings to this kind of content, which can heavily hurt past victims as well. Adults are allowed to not be okay! Adults are allowed to not be okay with seeing literal abuse be romantized! And that shouldn't be an excuse to do it just because your content is aimed for a more mature audience. Horror movies are aimed at adults and can portray murder as awful, proshippers shouldn't be an exception. Proshippers forget that antis tend to also get on people who use excessive gore without portraying it correctly as well. Urbanspook is a recent example who was HEAVILY flamed for his excessive gore without any real meaning or care behind the topic.

"Why do I have to demonize this! That doesn't mean I'm endorsing it!"

That's... what it means. If you do not portray a topic as serious as any form of abuse as bad then... why are you writing about it. I'm not saying it should be the main story because you can write about abuse and have it be a secondary plot point. Many stories do this, and it's don't correctly. But just writing about something just for the sake of having it in there without showing it as a bad awful thing, which is in the definition of abuse, is wrong and bad.

I'm not making this post to "change proshippers." Or "harass and bully them." I'm making this post because every argument they use is wrong and incorrect and hurts other victims, me included. I frankly don't care what proshippers do, but don't make mundane arguments about it. Just admit you want to do it just because you want to not for some anti conservative idea or because you believe it helps. There are better coping mechanisms, and posting yours online doesn't help your mindset. I hope all victims get the help and strength they need to heal from whatever they have been through, but posting romantic abuse online isn't going to help your mind or help anyone else. It's not some splatterpunk idea that slaps conservatives in the face and in fact pushes the idea to censor things more when kids come across it.

And honestly if any proshipper wants to have a debate about this I'm open to it as long as its cival. But frankly I don't see any reason to publicly be posting romantic abuse online.