#we're doing a snowgrave or something

[champmorado]

i just had the worst au idea ever (has never even watched a deltarune playthrough or lore summary video)

[hellspawnmotel]

which route will YOU choose??

[haemosexuality]

im going insane i need more deltarune yesterday

[akanemnon]

Deltarune spoilers (idk if I can talk about the new chapters with spoilers yet, so I put this)

So, after all of this, what do you think of Kris? I mean, in TR, you paint them as good, same thing I used to thought, or I still think??? Honestly, idk how to feel. But what about you? You still see them as not evil?

Have a nice day, drink water! Not from the watercooler. That thing is evil.

You might wanna replay the game again. There are many MANY instances where you can see that Kris actually legit cares about their friends and there is a small blink-and-you-miss-it instance where they even try to help you in the quiz.

Their harsh reactions come from a place of legit disdain towards your actions (see Snowgrave continuation) and if it goes against whatever they are (reluctantly?) wrapped up in.

We're all still figuring things out and finding clues. That's the neat thing about it. Toby writes these characters like real people. And the way he does it is NEVER black and white.

So no. I don't think they're evil. Just wrapped up in something much bigger than themself.

[the-irreverend]

Observing how Noelle is the only one to notice how Kris is not themselves has got me thinking that she will be the one to reveal the truth about our control and be the one to save Kris from it. If that's the case, then it's another ABSOLUTELY GENIUS way the Snowgrave Route subverts traditional gender norms/tropes/cliches we're all familiar with (and sick to death of)!

We're all familiar with the cliche of "brave knight saves helpless damsel from mortal peril" and what makes Deltarune brilliant is it defies that cliche by making Kris (who plays the role of the knight) and Noelle (who plays the role of the damsel) BOTH THE SAVIOUR AND THE ONE IN NEED OF SAVING!

Although we see Kris do knightly things like "venturing to distant lands" and "saving the day from evil," what ultimately makes them also the one "in distress" is that it's not happening through their own agency. They're not imprisoned in a tower or dungeon, but IN THEIR OWN BODY, and we are the one holding the key!

(Not to mention, Kris's non-binary identity adds to the subversion/deconstruction since the "knight saves damsel" cliche is founded upon restrictive and toxic gender roles, and Kris is outside the gender binary, us forcing them to play within these toxic roles is causing great harm to both them and Noelle.)

Speaking of Noelle who although is at the mercy of our actions as much as Kris is, her understanding of Kris and the relationship she has with them help her recognize something is horribly, HORRIBLY WRONG, and that gives her the most potential out of any character to rescue both Kris and herself from the roles we have imprisoned them in.

[silverstormsxx]

just a little observation

so y'all know how at the end of the sans fight in undertale he kinda scoots off screen so we don't actually see him turn to dust?

well I was thinking about that and it reminded me of something.

at the end of the berdly fight in snowgrave, noelle basically does the same thing sans does. she leaves even though we're still technically in a battle.

one interesting thing about noelle is that reality just sorta.. malfunctions around her. she has a history with breaking video games and finding glitches.. not to mention that the snowgrave route is literally an example of this.

you're not supposed to be able to kill enemies. but noelle is able to. she can break the rules of the game. the snowgrave route is quite literally called "the weird route". you are straying from a set path, and noelle is the key.

and whaddya know? a huge part of the sans fight is him abusing game mechanics against you. aka.. breaking the rules of the game.

I do not know what any of this means. thank you for coming to my Tedtalk.

[ultra-pidge]

Something I feel like people forget regarding Deltarune's ending

Alright, so we all know that the game will have "only one ending," right? We're all on the same page.

Alright. I've seen a lot of people theorize about that, and there are two main arguments regarding it. #1 is that it's a lie, using the Steam Page's question mark on the "Only One Ending" as a smoking gun.

Combined with the Weird Route, people use this to say there will have to be multiple endings.

The other one I see is people suggesting that, for one reason or another, the Ch2 Weird Route was an exception, and their smoking gun is the original insistence on there being only a single ending. The argument there is that not only will there be one ending, but there will only be one route for the main game.

But here's something I don't see many people notice:

Deltarune Chapter 2 only has one ending.

People seem to think that the Snowgrave Ending (fight Spamton, Berdly is Fallen Down) vs. Pacifist Ending (Queen is happy) vs. Murderer Ending (Queen is sad) are endings. They're not. Those are the context. Susie always walks around with you. Kris always slashes Toriel's tires. Kris always opens a dark fountain. The actual ending is always the same, whether Berdly is alive, has a broken arm, or is dead.

My theory is that there will absolutely be alternate routes, but they won't change the actual ending. It's possible that half of Hometown will be six feet under or trapped in the code by the end of the game on some route. But no matter what you do, the actual ending of the game will be the same.

Context is everything. Even if the events appear exactly the same, they could mean wildly different things. Kris opening a Dark Fountain on a Normal Route is them trying to have a cool adventure with their friends. On a Weird Route, suddenly it's massively confusing.

Because don't forget:

[ordinaryschmuck]

Here's my big prediction for the finale of Deltarune. A prediction that's likely popular, but it's one I certainly stand by with a firm belief. The final battle...will be between Kris and Susie. But WE get to fight as Susie.

It always feels like that ending is going to be inevitable. Because we know Kris is up to some shit with Carol (Who may or may not be the Howling Knight) and is certainly connected to all of this danger in the first place. We don't know WHY they're doing it, and Snowgrave route shows that Kris isn't fully evil (According to fans, I will never do Snowgrave, I could never do that to poor Noelle). Whatever the reason is, they do seem to be getting worse and worse, with all these changes in their life effecting it. Asriel moving to college, their parents getting a divorce, the annoying shop owner guy "befriending our mom." It's all becoming too much and Kris feels like their one last bad change away from doing something INCREDIBLY drastic, "My guess is Asriel saying he'll be missing tomorrow's festival."

As for Susie, she's the real heart and soul of Deltarune. The one who grows the most and the one who went through the more trials and tribulations. She had to learn to not rely on violence, to be kind, to fight for OTHERS as oppose to herself. In fact, she's the one to stop seeing these adventures as fun adventures and more like a job she and Kris HAS to do for the sake of their town and possibly the world. Whereas Kris is noticeably indifferent (Lest WE make them care) and Ralsie...already knew this but treated the whole adventure as a game for THEIR sake.

And I can totally see this divide slowly start to take form the more the game progresses until it's a battle when Susie learns that it was Kris who's been making Darkworlds. And that they need to be stopped before they make an already bad situation worse. This leads to a heartbreaking battle that can go in one of a few ways:

A. We control Susie ONLY to the extent of defending her from Kris' attacks. Much like her fight with Not-Gerson, we can't control what actions she does or even when she might attack. Meaning we're forced to watch and prolong a tragic final fight between two characters who grew as friends and let that friendship die in tragedy.

B. We DO control Susie's actions and can force her to fight Kris, force upon this tragedy because of what WE think is best, not what Susie believes is best.

C. We could also try to SPARE Kris, get through to them. Maybe even tire them out so Susie can let them know that this "game" is now over, and they need to go home. People are waiting for them, their mom is waiting for them, ASRIEL is waiting for them. It needs to end, and we'll always be with them in the dark.

This is where I believe the game's heading. And no matter what option we the player are given...It's gonna be a heart wrenching finale for sure.

[hellspawnmotel]

do you have any personal thoughts on what exactly is it that drives the player to do a snowgrave route? or do you think we're not supposed to know yet..? like you know how in undertale the genocide route is mostly about curiosity and using the player's completionist mentality agaisnt them, i feel like snowgrave has something to do with the prophecy but we cant know for sure yet, do you think snowgrave would be more about playing with people's feelings or something like that ? sorta like, "I like noelle so i'll spend more time with her and make her strong" "i dont like berdly so i'll play the route where he dies" or maybe literally just "I love when stories make me feel awful so that's why i'll play the Mean route" LMAO since i think thats common in ppl who like to discuss the route

it’s interesting, I think it’s something we don’t really have enough information to know yet. I think it depends on the nature of the soul and how it got to this world, what put it here and why. I think…. the holiday family is kind of the center of everything, and noelle is the only member of it who’s like, available? rudy’s in the hospital and carol & dess are already fully involved, but noelle was still innocent and ignorant, and healthy. so to that end I don’t think it’s necessarily about who noelle is as a person, it’s because she has access to this power. the ability to break the game.

the thing that keeps getting brought up in chapter 3 is “freedom”. you want to play your own way and do whatever you want. youre enjoying the youthful days. it’s fun. I think the mechanics of the weird route are in direct conversation with the geno route and how people have reacted and gotten used to it over the years, and turned it from like a dark secret to half the conversation around undertale. so it’s asking “how far are you willing to go in order to achieve that same ‘freedom?’ we already know you’re willing to kill all these sweet and fun characters, you want that same thing again, but what if the only avenue to get there was through the slow psychological destruction of an innocent girl? would you be willing to do these terrible things to her? would you be willing to select just the right action to hurt her over and over? would you be willing to sit and watch the consequences of what you’ve done?”

I mean. that’s one angle anyway. I also subscribe to the idea of the weird route as “power-leveling” your favorite character, or just wanting to make the ���weak girl” into something strong and threatening, in defiance of all those games that wouldn’t let you do just that. youre helping her of course. and girls like her dont usually get to become the strongest. you want to see it just once.

I think the former is much more likely to be the overall “point” of the weird route, but maybe the latter is like, the internal justification the player/soul gives themselves within the narrative. and of course in real life every actual person playing is going to feel differently and have different reasons. but again, we really don’t have enough information to make that kind of call. it could just as easily be something that will become clear only when we get much deeper in.

[vt-scribbles]

Things I am certain [or at least semi-certain] of in the future of Deltarune:

[MAJOR SPOILERS FOR 1-4, OBVIOUSLY]

Also, warning for dark topics such as suicidal ideation on #17.

I'm not giving all my evidence/back-up facts for each of these cuz this is long enough just trust me. I can expand on any 1 of these topics if asked directly LMAO

These are not in order, so related points may be spaced out cuz this is a mad dash to get all me and my gf's thoughts down.

Susie will become a dragon kaiju at some point, most likely willingly or semi-willingly to either save the city, or to fight a titan [likely kris] [I am 10000% certain of this]

Kris will become a titan after separating from the soul [which would likely go to susie and turn her into the kaiju]

Someone might sing I'm with you in the dark [which might be a lullaby susie used to hear as a kid from her parents] to susie or kris to bring them back to their senses in these states.

The 'Angel' is us. The player. The person controlling Kris. [However I think someone else GAVE us that connection, there's someone else in the formula here that's in-universe. Possibly gaster.]

Spamton has seen the player and was trying to get to 'heaven' aka the real world. We are like biblically accurate angels to them. Realistic, shaded, etc. We are eldritch. Spamton wanted to become BIGGER, because he thought that was the way to get to heaven because he glimpsed the player.

Spamton technically 'got to heaven' cuz he became a popular plushie and is now a cultural phenomenon irl. Toby won't make plushes of lightners because they're not objects. They're not SUPPOSED to get to our world, narratively. But Darkners want to become real... and becoming real plushes sold by toby kinda grants that wish.

Sans knows about the player/can see us.

Kris, when they look over their shoulder at different points, is looking AT US.

The shadow crystals are possibly pieces of the barrier that separates us the player from the world of deltarune.

"<"deltarune">" [it deletes if I don't put the quotes] is a videogame. It's THE videogame we're playing. The reason the prophecy cannot be changed is because it's. Code. The literal code of the world. I have a side-headcanon that the prophecy was made by kris and asriel when they were younger.

Ralsei doesn't know EVERYTHING. He doesn't know how to change the future.

Susie is now aware of the player, and to an extent... she trusts us. "We're NOT gonna let that happen... right?" she's looking RIGHT at us. She's not talking to kris in that scene. She fears nothing, and will stare us right in the face and ask for help. This connection was formed when she shared a bit of Kris' soul's light when banishing the titan at the end of chapter 4.

I think the last prophecy could be MANY things... but my biggest guess is it's about Toriel being sacrificed or hurt. That's why susie's so upset, and why she can't handle being in the house at the end of chapter 4. She can't look at toriel, knowing what she knows now. To an extent, neither can kris. [kris is also upset abt their mom moving on and getting friendly with sans] [who I believe is /partially/ getting close to toriel to talk with kris or smth related to the prophecy.]

Asgore might see the player [may have already seen?] and go on a rant about them in front of people, pointing at us, claiming he's seen the angel. He'll then be dragged off to asylum. [The flower man, trapped in asylum.] This will likely be witnessed by susie or kris, who will know he's telling the truth, and feel sick they can't defend him.

Carol is the most likely roaring knight. It could also be dess, and it could be an unknown third party. But it's most likely carol.

Kris is terrified of Carol, and she's using SOMETHING to manipulate kris. Something strong enough to make Kris do a bunch of things they really, really don't wanna do [including deal with this fuck-ass soul]

Kris is suicidal, at least in the snowgrave route. This is backed up by some pretty blatant messages from asgore and gerson boom [old man]. And the fact that after gerson tells kris to keep living in the snowgrave route, he gives them an apple. They eat it so aggressively that they eat the core, and the seeds. Apple seeds contain cyanide. Not enough to kill you... but the idea is there. Also, kris would not have stopped kicking the soul in the trash can if asgore hadn't interrupted them. They are at half health at the end of that cutscene.

The titan looks like a generic, realistic human silhouette before fully forming [it's been here the whole time] because it's what kris fears most. it then turns into an angelic form. kris also can't handle looking at other humans. [also susie mentions 'aw yeah giant monster movies, always liked them more than the giant human movies.'] also the prophecy 'the angel, banished, will finally meet its desire' does not show us a picture of them, but susie seems disturbed by what she's seeing. Kris can't look at it. Ralsei seems rattled, but accepting. That's just the way the angel looks. Susie seems like she's seen an eldritch creature. And why won't they show us? they can't. Because it looks. like. you. Whoever is playing the game. It's them.

We need to get Dess out of the code of the game somehow. She fell in somehow and we need to get her out. She's in stasis somewhere. [also I think she's in like... cryosleep, essentially]

Carol is trying to bring back dess.

Carol and Queen are two halves of the same personality. Queen might be based on how carol USED to be. Queen has blue lipstick only on her bottom lip, and carol has the exact same color only on her top lip. 'carol's not so bad when you get to know her', rudy clearly still loves her ['I love her, but she can be tough on noelle'], so clearly he married her for a reason and he's upset she's changed. She's not his wife right now... cuz she's been lost to her grief and obsession. She was overprotective before [like queen is to noelle], but it got turned up to 100 when dess disappeared. She used to be a goofy mom who made jokes, collected silly santas, and preserves her childrens' heartfelt gifts to the point of bronzing noelle's paper snowflakes [the same ones that the knight uses in some of its attacks].

"You were used up" in the secret route [sword route] of chapter 3 is not referring to kris solely, it's also referring to US the player. We're being used by someone in-game.

The realistic stock human face on Flowey in Undertale was foreshadowing the fact that the human player is the Angel in deltarune [and to an extent, undertale too], because it's so out of pocket and unsettlingly... specific. We don't know why a human face, inside a screen, in black and white, is on flowey's face. But we know undertale was the blueprint for deltarune, so there's connections here and there that haven't been explained or revealed yet.

Asriel might have the final piece to fixing everything. Because he helped make the game that the prophecy might have been brought to life from.

The soul is talking. Like. Through speaker phone. That's why kris doesn't sound right to noelle. And why they can close their mouth sometimes to interrupt the soul's dialogue choices. Susie sees nothing weird abt this cuz she JUST met them after the soul took effect.

Asgore might set something ablaze in chapter 5 when he finds out sans and toriel are getting along. 'fields of pink and gold burned in an inferno of jealousy'. he's doing everything in his power to get the family back together, to an obsessive degree, because he believes their family split for stupid, unfair reasons. He believes he's not crazy. And to an extent, he's not.

pink and gold... Red and White and Yellow aux cords? Why were we asked about aux cords in the secret level in chapter 3 you can get by editing the code...? Combine red and white and you get pink? and yellow for the gold? Idk if this is the direct correlation but that one's too crazy not to document.

okay I am tired and there's more but that's the big bois.

[luigipowtumbl]

.......ooookaaay theeennnnnn... soooo... deltarune...

...GOOD FRICKING GOSH...

Alright, for real now.

So replaying Chapters 1 and 2, I started remembering why I liked this game. Lancer especially was so much more of a character than I remember! And a fun one too! I found myself laughing a lot more at him than the last time I played. Not to mention reuniting with Rouxls, finally getting to meet the original Starwalker in person, and not being able to defeat Jevil after five attempts. (Seriously, how the frick am I meant to beat THAT!?)

As for Chapter 2, mostly the same thing. The interactions between Susie and Noelle were pretty cute, meanwhile Berdly and Queen's interactions were real fun. Kinda forgot about the Snowgrave/Weird Route so I didn't play that. Didn't want to anyway. (I eventually convinced myself to...) I DID win against Spamton Neo and perhaps purposefully fried Berdly's arm. Whoops.

Now for Chapter 3. And 4. So I did NOT expect Tenna to be a lineless 3d character, but he certainly was something. Rouxls really caught me off guard with his methods of "fixing Elnina and Lanino's relationship". He sure has me confused now. Glad the weather that sticks together is with someone better (Starwalker). Disappointed I didn't find the "Spamtenna" secret, but I'm just glad it even exists. But I also did NOT expect the Roaring Knight to appear! At least, not THAT soon!! At least we're FINALLY doing something about the bunker.

And, finally, WHERE TO START WITH CHAPTER 4!!?? GERSON, A TITAN REVEAL THIS SOON, THE PROPHECY, SUSIE'S DARK WORLD, SANS FRICKING DANCING WITH TORIEL!!!!! And don't even get me STARTED on how dark the Weird Route became.

All that in mind, I am both excited and terrified for what the next chapter brings...

That being said, there's something I'm working on... you'll see.

[toastling]

*kicks down the deltadoor*

We are "The Angel" of Undertale and Deltarune lore and we always have been.

I think I've cracked it. I have a new unified Deltarune theory and I am discarding one of the foundational, day one, linchpin theories of the fandom in favor of it.

Ever since the end of Chapter 1, it has been the prevailing view that the SOUL inside of Kris is not their own, but *us*, the player, just as it was in Undertale. That Kris is not at all in control of their actions, and they are only free to be themselves when their SOUL is out - which is to say, when we can no longer control them - and hence we are the true villain of Deltarune.

And given how little we knew in Chapter 1, and even in Chapter 2, this made sense. It makes sense that this theory has persisted for so long. It fit the implications of Chapter 1's shock ending, but it raised so many uncomfortable questions in Chapter 2's ending that I have only seen the fandom really address one specific way: a blanket "Kris is Chara" theory. This is because the first time we see Kris do something substantial without their SOUL inside them, they go and open up a Fountain in their living room and end up inviting The Knight into their home and nearly get Toriel killed.

But why? Why would Kris do that? And more than that, if we're the SOUL and not Kris, and we're somehow the real villains here because Kris isn't in control when we are, what does it say about Kris that left to their own devices, they would try to kill what little family and friends they have left the *second* we're not able to stop them anymore? That certainly would paint Kris as not just troubled or struggling, but very much evil in the same way Chara was.

But here's the thing. We've seen this story before. This was Undertale's big twist. The player character was never us, it was Frisk. The person we named is known canonically, outside of us, as Chara, a self-proclaimed demon who comes when its name is called. The person Asriel, as Flowey, tries to force us into being is Chara, not Frisk. We're only the villain in Undertale if we do as Chara would have, if we trigger Genocide, if we kill. Because Chara is taking refuge in Frisk's SOUL and has from the very first second they fell into the underground, but they only manage to take control of Frisk and do the evil they want if *we* help them and give them power.

Toby is not going to repeat the same story and the same twist the exact same way twice in a row. No. Everything in Deltarune is an inversion, a mirror, of what we thought we knew in Undertale. Depending on the timeline and how things play out, perhaps it will be more chronologically correct to say it's the other way around. But either way, if this mirror trend continues, then I think the role of us, the player, and how we relate to the story, is also going to be turned on its head.

Which is to say, we're not the ones giving Chara or whatever evil is at play power to dominate Kris' soul, not this time around. We're the only ones able to let Kris *resist* that power, which already has full control over them whenever we aren't there.

I think what we the player are in Deltarune is much more potent and important than the only way in for some eldritch evil of ambiguous origin. I think that might be the case in Snowgrave, or as it is canonically known to the dev team, "the weird route", and that the fact we are choosing to go out of our way to do what this evil wanted in the first place is precisely why this route is supposed to be "weird" because it's weird we'd want to be so evil, but we're intended to be something much greater than that this time around. We're supposed to be the answer to Toriel's prayers for her child. We're supposed to be the manifestation of everything the people of Hometown pray to and worship every Sunday. We're supposed to be The Angel.

The Angel is said to be a bringer of either salvation or destruction. Through the choices we make as players, isn't that a pretty good description of us? There is a lot of angel imagery around Noelle, but that herring is as red as Rudolph's nose, if you ask me. Since when has Toby ever been so obvious and unsubtle about something like that? She might play The Angel in church plays, but The Angel is and was always meant to be us. And we're there for one very specific reason.

Because Kris isn't in control of Kris anymore. Because when they were children, Kris and Catti summoned a demon. Because whatever they managed to call forth, it has taken hold of Kris with an iron grip and is behind everything that has happened since Dess went missing.

We aren't making Kris hurt their friends and family, they only do that when we're not around. We're not the ones creating Fountains and Dark Worlds, Kris only does that when they've vacated their SOUL from their body. I think we are the only way in which Kris can still be themselves and make any positive choices or do any amount of healing at all, because we are the response to all those candles lit and prayers sent up by Toriel. Because we are Kris' guardian angel.

Something very dark is happening in Hometown and it all started with the disappearance of Dess Holiday. I don't think Kris did anything to her directly, but I think whatever dark power they inadvertently invited into this world as a kid is. I think that darkness is hiding in the Shelter. I think Dess in an act of teenage rebellion stole the codes to and entered the shelter of her own volition out of curiosity or recklessness the same way Frisk climbed Mt. Ebott, which is why the Holiday passcode was hidden in her guitar. I think the darkness hiding in that shelter pushed her out of the equation entirely and turned her into The Knight, a body without a will or a SOUL in which it could do its work. And maybe the reason it took Dess was because it couldn't completely take Kris. Not until their family fell apart - something that happened potentially in response to Asgore's failure to solve Dess' disappearance and the stress that put on him, his career, and his family.

I think the darkness took Dess to create an opening for its real target, Kris. I think that's why The Knight, at the end of the secret boss version if you manage to beat it, literally *knights* Kris. Because they were always the intended vessel. But they're only able to influence them when their SOUL is no longer present, when they are empty, when we aren't there to protect them.

Kris was supposed to be The Knight, but isn't. Dess is the Knight, but only as a matter of convenience. If the darkness can overtake Kris, they're a much better vessel for what they have planned. Kris is sturdier than any monster, after all. Humans don't have magic, but their bodies have more physical matter and a much stronger SOUL. That strength might be why Kris lasted so long until their family fell apart, but it might also be why they are the ideal Knight. But a Knight for who? Who or what is this evil force?

Maybe it's Gaster. Maybe it's Chara. Or, maybe Chara *is* Gaster. If Gaster shattered across time and space, then his pieces could be anywhere. He's a monster, so if he dies, Gaster's soul won't persist outside his body. But he didn't die, he fell into his creation and shattered, so his soul isn't gone. But what happens to pieces of a shattered soul? Maybe they turn into new, albeit incomplete, people. Maybe Sans and Papyrus are not children of Gaster in a literal sense, but rather pieces of Gaster's soul, embodying a limited number of aspects of who he once was. Sans is the observational intellect and easygoing or lazy attitude, whereas Papyrus is the bright-eyed childlike wonder and naivety and joy. If the Gaster followers are holding pieces of Gaster but not themselves those pieces, maybe that's why they're grey and removed from reality. But maybe Sans and Papyrus aren't the only embodied fragments. Maybe Chara, too, is a piece of Gaster - Gaster's curiosity, cruelty, and darkness. A monster turned demon manifest.

That's a whole separate theory, but is at least a possible answer as to who or what it is that has control over Kris and the Knight. Perhaps these shadow crystals and the shadow mantle are more pieces of Gaster, the former being small enough to not form their own entities, whereas the latter could exist in certain circumstances, such as in a video game inside of a Dark World. We've seen how the literal dead can come back to a limited extent in a Dark World, so why not somebody who technically no longer exists? Who has fallen somewhere dark and darker and yet darker still?

Regardless of the true nature of this evil, Kris is not in control of their actions when their SOUL is out of their body. They are not in control of their actions when we're not there to watch and, not make choices for them, but allow them the power to completely overrule and resist the darkness. We're not a decider, we're a facilitator. A protector. We keep the darkness at bay so Kris' light can shine. It's not as if we type in the choices we select from - those are presented to us. But by who? The game? Abstract, the usual answer, and possible - but what if they're presented by Kris? Kris is the one making these decisions, plotting these outcomes, we just give them the power to say yes and act on their desires. Because right now, they can't do that on their own.

This is why the weird route is so out of the way and difficult to trigger, why it isn't predicated on choices presented to us in dialogue in the same way as Kris' are, not until we've actually started down the route already. We have to create an opening for the darkness to start asking us before we're fully in league with it. And at that point, if we're Kris' guardian angel, if we are The Angel, then we have chosen to fall and become a demon. We have ignored the prayers for salvation and chosen the path of destruction.

So what then of Noelle the red-nosed herring? I think if the Knight really is Dess - which it is very, very likely to be at this point - then the prophecy Susie saw, the one Ralsei tried to hide, was about Noelle falling in league with the Knight, with her sister, and the only way laid out by the prophecy to save the world is that Noelle must die. This leans in to Noelle's Angel allegory even more by positioning her as The Angel choosing destruction over salvation, but is just another layer of obfuscation - she's not the real Angel. That's why Gerson was so adamant on drilling into Susie in Chapter 4 that the prophecy doesn't need to be unavoidable if people don't want to to be, that Susie has choice and agency. Susie can change Noelle's fate, because Noelle isn't actually the Angel. We are. And Susie can't intervene with us like she can another character in her world.

I think this theory fits Toby's sense of not only world building, and story telling, but also humor, much better than anything else I've seen so far, as well. Think about it. The major world religion featured in Deltarune in which Toriel and the rest of Hometown are true believers in and go to church every Sunday to worship and praise and pray to as characters in a video game is actually us, the player of said video game. Who else would video game characters pray to as a god - or an Angel, as the case may be - than the player? The one who can choose to save their world or throw it into chaos on a whim?

Undertale really was just a test run. This is what Toby's been building to all along. This is my grand unified theory of Deltarune.

[flambeaufelid]

Kris Deltarune lives the most unfathomably stupid fucking life, I love it. It's amazing how easy it is to understand why they need to do whatever messed up shit they're doing, because why would they not, when things are how they are?

Like, it all seems kinda small at first. Bullied by Susie at school, underachiever compared to their brother, divorced parents- sure, all bad, but still normal problems that real people can and do often manage to deal with.

But it keeps piling up. The only real skill they seem to have is piano, but they're too shy(?) to play in front of people. They're also good at games I guess... which puts them in contact with BERDLY. Who, really, if we're being honest, is also a bully, just in a different way.

(Spoilers below the readmore.)

They've grown apart from Noelle. Their brother is away at college. Their friend Dess is missing, and they might have had something to do with it? And their dad is so obsessed with her disappearance (or something else?) that he lost his job. And his marriage, which means Kris probably feels responsible for splitting up their parents if they do know anything about Dess.

Now their dad is poor as dirt and borderline going hungry, relying on handouts from that skeleton guy, while pathetically groveling to their mom... who is apparently fucking that goddamn skeleton. Why. Why mom, why do you like the jackass pun skeleton?

Why does the ELDRITCH ENTITY that's CONTROLLING THEM and making them do horrible, embarrassing, and out-of-character things, ALSO like the skeleton. Why does it keep making them FUCKING talk to him.

And, everybody, actually? And like, look at everything? Can it not calm it's shit and stop wasting time for two goddamn seconds? Do we really need to examine every random clump of dirt and garbage can? Every computer monitor and bookshelf and fridge? Full-blown Jamrock shuffle.

Why did it name that creepy onion thing Asriel 2? How did it even know it was there??? Why does it keep making them flirt with Berdly????? Why did it make them steal from their brother...

And what, now there's a fucking prophecy that apparently ends in disaster? Great. Yeah, that's real fun to have hanging over your head. Cool.

And obviously snowgrave. Just incomprehensible awfulness. But apparently Carol (or whoever is on the phone) has some leverage over them, so there's nothing to be done. They can beat the fuck out of the soul (which HURTS THEM TOO, their health can be seen to have gone down after), but they still gotta put it back in, and let it puppet them. Even though if they have one clear desire it's for freedom.

They have barely eaten real food or had anything to drink or a moment to themself in THREE DAYS. Doesn't seem like they've had much time for sleep either. And, does their teacher think they and Susie are fucking??? And now Catti is pissed at them for hanging out with Susie, great, that's another friendship down the fucking drain. Maybe that's for the best though, because who knows what fucked up shit the soul is gonna do next.

And that's. Not. All! I could go on! How about the dark worlds and how they keep reflecting Kris's traumas? How about whatever the FUCK that creepy mantle quest was? How about Ralsei's fucking emotional problems, and Susie's fucked home life? How about the fact that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in town is NUTS??? There are ZERO normal people. They CLEARLY can't rely on the adults, Asgore is in hell, Toriel is oblivious, Carol is possibly the knight or something, and both Undyne and Alphys are totally useless.

Kris's life is so shit. It's a miracle they stay as composed as they do.

[justthemoonz]

(Deltarune Chapter 3 and 4 Spoilers) My current Theory about the whole thing relating why images of Susie have her holding a sword and her heart in Chapter 4 is because SHE'S the protagonist. Kris is the cage, and once the cage is open, we're supposed to play as/help Susie But in order to "open the cage" and have her heart fulfilled, she'd have to do something that she doesn't want to, which could be harming Kris. Which might be what she saw at the end of the Chapter and smashed with her fist EDIT: ADDING ONTO THIS!!! I think the cage isn't about Kris themself. It's about the Vessel I think the Vessel was the cage we were supposed to take over, before Susie would destroy it so she could take our SOUL But the second voice put us into Kris just so that we WOULDN'T want Kris harmed EDIT 2: As a final thought on this, I think in Snowgrave you're no longer viewing Kris as just a person. You're viewing them as yet another game character. As a "Vessel" of sorts, which would work in the prophecy favor if that's the way the story is going. Which is not a good thing for reasons stated above

[logan-but-not]

One of the aspects I genuinely really hope we get to see by the end of Deltarune is that Kris and the player end on good terms. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think it's invasive and unfair to puppeteer Kris when they have little to no say in the matter. But at the same time, we were also thrown into this situation out of our control. And, we're doing everything in our power to make the best possible decisions to create the best possible outcome. I really think that having us be the villain of this story is just not where the narrative will, or even should, go.

Disregarding the weird route, why should we be at fault for being a player in a video game? Something that we, like Kris, had no control over. I know Toby is pushing the meta narrative aspects of DT a lot heavier than he did in Undertale, what with how he's trying to reinforce how much the light world is a real, living and breathing world and not just this self contained video game world. But condemning a player, who did nothing malicious, only tried to help, won battles, mended relationships, and (potentially) saved the world, for the simple crime of... being a player and wanting to interact with this fictional world would be a little too pretentious, even by his standards.

Also I think narratively it just makes for a better conclusion. As of right now, it's clear that Kris sees the player this curse, this parasite that takes away their freewill, and they want to be rid of it by any means. But imagine if as the chapters progress, Kris becomes less and less hostile and starts to realize that maybe it would be better if they tried to communicate and work with us. Idk, It just feels natural for the two of us to try to work together and figure out who's really pulling the strings. I don't need Kris to completely forgive and accept the player, I just don't Toby to paint us as this antagonistic force, unless we do something to justify that title: IE Snowgrave.

[sagethegremlin]

deltaspeculation: noelle, the prophecy, and susie's blood

Throwing my deltarune theory in the hat: I think the panel of the prophecy that Susie shattered has everything to do with Noelle, and something terrible is going to happen to her.

Throughout the game, Toby has been setting up that the Holidays are a tragic family. Rudy is dying, Carol is consumed by work, Dess is having a tea party with Gaster who fuckin knows where, and Noelle is left behind. Noelle has to walk past her missing sister's room every day, watch her dad get worse and worse in the hospital, deal with a strict mom (that's probably even stricter because of already losing one child), and somehow still gets straight As despite the struggle. I believe that the prophecy demands a sacrifice of some sort from her, and that's why Susie destroyed it so quickly. Noelle is a major character despite not being a permanent party member, and that's because it'll make the impact at the end that much stronger.

And, the snowgrave bonus is that if she dies (or something like that) at the end of the game, you'll feel bad for making her life awful right up to that point.

The last prophecy

The last prophecy. The story's end. And then, when all hope is lost for the tale, The final tragedy unveils. To save the worlds, There is only one way. [broken by Susie] Only then, Will the worlds be saved.

Not a lot of the other bits of the prophecy that we see follow a rhyme, but this one does. My thought here is that the broken panel ends with Holiday, and describes the sacrifice Noelle will make (or hell maybe its something to do with Dess who knows man).

With Susie's interaction with Carol, we're watching her getting more protective with Noelle, so the prophecy describing a tragedy befalling her gives Susie the perfect reason to brake the glass and say "I wouldn't let it happen, Kris wouldn't let it happen, and obviously YOU wouldn't let it happen." Susie cares about Noelle, knows that Kris is friends with Noelle and cares about her too, and most importantly knows Ralsei cares about everybody and wouldn't want anything terrible to happen to a friend.

Noelle being the girl in the prophecy

If anyone else has talked about this already then mb ✋

I'm not suuuuper confident that Susie isn't the one in the prophecy, but I do think it's fun to speculate about.

For starters, Susie BLEEDS SUSIE BLEEDS?????? WHYS SHE BLEEDING CAN MONSTERS BLEED?????? A few years back I remember seeing a deltarune comic that proposed Susie is a mixed race monster with a human mom and a monster dad (and that's why we don't know her parents so it could be a big reveal) and if Toby isn't going the route of "monsters in deltarune bleed but they don't in undertale because of differing magic or whatever" then I think it's REALLY interesting to think about other reasons for why Susie bleeds at the end of chapter four.

And then it begs the question how lenient is the prophecy? Is Susie still the monster girl if she isn't "fully monster"?

The thing that really gets me about the prophecy glass in chapter four is that none of the depictions of the monster girl include Susie's silhouette like Ralsei's does. Could the visuals in Ralsei's just be telling us how he wants to see it? Could it be telling us how the game wants us to see it?

Noelle fits the descriptions we see of the monster girl just as much as Susie does. Finding love, having hope on her heart (she has to hope!!! shes a devout whatever-toby-calls-it and her sisters missing and her dads dying!!!), and also having long hair isn't it wild that the prophecy girl has long hair and toby has given us two monster girls with long hair that could fit into that role isn't that crazy.

Also, if the prophecy girl is Noelle, that give Susie just as much reason to break that panel as it does for if Noelle gets hurt. Just as Susie said, the prophecy is her chance to be special. Without that, she's still just some girl that got tangled up in things. She's made friends and had important moments and that's what really matters, but it's still a punch to the gut to know you weren't chosen. And also then there's the bonus gut punch of something awful happening to Noelle.

But also if the prophecy is so specific as to predict Lancer calling Ralsei "toothpaste boy" then Ralsei should know that he's been following the wrong lightner but its still fun to think about.

Thanks gang for coming to my deltaspeculation here take a cookie for making it this far 🍪