#why would they question his motive he was obviously just out for a throne

[worstloki]

Loki probably had to deal with Frigga's 'subtle' attempts to get him to apologise and reintegrate into the family through the entire jail time :/

[normal-thoughts-official]

I guess the question right now is: how does ******'s illegitimacy play into this

(Spoilers ahead, obviously)

The most obvious answer is that she and Vasili have been in cahoots the whole time to get the Act passed and make sure they're both elligible heirs. And it's probably the one they're going with because the whole Vasili thing has been pretty standard. But I'd like to believe that it could be more interesting than that, especially since there are still many questions:

Why would Lydea want to get the Act passed instead of just protecting the secret of her illegitimacy to begin with (there is a chance she has been killing for that reason instead, or that Vasili knows it somehow and has been threatening her with that, but still)

Why would Lydea want the throne???

Why would Lydea even tell us about the existence of an illegitimate child?

I'm gonna be pretty disappointed if Lydea just wants the throne because like... Boring motive and I do think it fits her character better to not want to be heir so she can be Captain of the Royal Guard instead. Maybe she is working with him because she wants to make sure the Act passes so Vasili can take the throne in her place. That could work and be more interesting

I did guess that she would be the illegitimate one because that would explain Viktoria's motive for wanting to neutralize Trystan, so I'm still holding on to hope that that's where this comes into play - to explain how Viktoria ended up bringing Trystan to Drakovia and forcing Vasili's hand, ruining his original plan and forcing him to scramble with the new murders

There is still the question of what the fuck he has been doing for the last 8 years, because as far as we know he just sat on his ass and did nothing. But maybe he had been waiting for Lydea's coronation so he would kill her, and the prospect of Astrid of all people taking the throne would make the Act pass near-instantly. So maybe that's what he was going for, and it got ruined when Viktoria brought Trystan back, forcing his hand. It could even be that the obvious signs pointing to a legitimate thorne - the ring, the dagger - were planted to frame Lydea, just as insurance if nothing else

But... IDK, I think what they're going for is him being in cahoots with Lydea, which really is the most boring answer. Or maybe he stole Astrid's dagger and the ring was his own and Lydea had nothing to do with this. Then maybe she's gonna fight Vasili and get him arrested and Trystan will be like woah Lydea you deserve the throne and it'll be a fun twist that she gets it because the Act passes (yes I know that's wishful thinking)

Interesting options I'd like to see but wouldn't put my stock on:

Vasili's been working with Viktoria. She could get double insurance out of this: making sure that no one finds out about Lydea and, if they ever do, that she can still inherit the throne. In which case she'd turn on Vasili the second that was done. It'd be dramatic, at least

Vasili has been using the knowledge of Lydea's illegitimacy as leverage to stop Viktoria from getting in the way of his plans/cooperating somehow? Because it is odd to me that she made no move to stop the Act, at any point

But I think what they're going for is that Vasili was behind everything, even bringing Trystan to Drakovia. Which would mean the illegitimate child thing was pretty irrelevant to the plot but whatever. And I'm not sure why he would want to bring them back, unless he hates them so much he wanted to make sure they were not only out of the way but also suffering

[daylander1000]

Will you watch season 2 of HotD or you've lost interest in the show? I wasn't thrilled with season 1, but I do like some characters and I'm curious to see if they'll do them any justice in the next season(s). I'm still trying to be optimistic (which is definitely against my nature 😁), although the latest leaks from Spain (which I desperately hope to be false) doesn't sound promising.

Idk it you read Fire & Blood, but that book is often overrated imho, almost all the characters there are painfully one-dimensional, shallow and bland, while the plot is full of illogical things (especially the Dance part) . So, as you can see, I'm not the biggest book fan, and I do believe that the show did some things better and gave a bit of depth and complexity to certain characters and fleshed them out. However, at the same time it seems to me that they didn't complete what they started, like, you see the potential of the characters and understand their motivations, but then out of the blue they do or say something totally nonsensical and OOC. Take Alicent at the end of episode 8. Rhaenyra says something nice to her and she suddenly forgives everything and forgets that's the same woman who wanted to "sharply question" Aemond after her son Luke maimed him over an insult (a fact, actually), the woman her husband always favoured at the expense of Alicent's own children and finally, the woman who is married to Daemon, the sociopath who hates Alicent and her children and who will kill anyone (and apparently with Rhaenyra and Viserys' blessing) without remorse if it benefits him and his side. I mean, the guy even had the gall to look annoyed during the prayer for Vaemond. Still, according to the show, Alicent somehow needs to "misunderstand" Viserys' last words to crown her own son, and not because it's probably the only way to keep her and her children alive and safe and because her son actually has the strongest claim to the throne according to Westerosi laws avd tradition. And don't get me started on the Velaryons who are collectively depicted as "Dae and Rhae fan club". Like, what is Corlys even thinking?! I won't ask about Baela and Rhaena because they obviously don't get to think and are just unconditionally supportive of Rhaenyra and the Strong boys. Rhaenys is contradictory and inconsistent. It's frustrating, really. Also, the fact that the narrative/the framing of the show heavily favours team black is also off-putting. Nevertheless, I'm still curious and just a bit hopeful that season 2 will balance these things a little. Maybe I'll just be terribly disappointed, but oh well. Sorry for the rant :D

Anyway, as a fan of your fic, I would like to know your opinion. Does the show deserve our optimism and what are your predictions regarding season 2?

S2 predictions? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Why would you ask me this? This is a show where someone in a professional HBO writers room said, "So what if a dragon just bursts up from the underground?" And the showrunner was like "Fuck yeah!"

I don't think they even thought to do a camera pan of the carnage. It's like they wanted to make Rhaenys look badass but did a Koolaid Man scene instead.

Tell me that this isn't Rhaenys

Predictions? This is not Leftovers where you could do a whole video essay on foreshadowing and subtext and hidden clues. This is a series where there's a horse running loose in a writer's room and nobody knows what it's going to write next.

This is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen.

My prediction for S2 is that during the time off at least one person realizes that they failed to make Aegon into Joff 2.0, that instead of having him be affably evil, he's onscreen affable and offscreen evil, and they'll try to double down on actually showing that he's evil and actually showing that he's worse than Daemon and Rhaenyra.

We've seen Daemon in brothels, grooming and marrying children, killing Rhea, killing innocent people and murdering lords at court, but we've only been told (by very minor characters) that Aegon is a baby-eating rape monster. It's all extremely "tacked-on."

I think Aegon's the biggest problem that they have to work on. Just getting at least this one character to make sense moving forward.

When Jahaerys is killed, I think they'll use that to really commit to making him the bad guy. Like he'll have to be killing a baby or raping someone or eating someone so that it's not Rhaenyra and Daemon killing a child but "Look at what this bad man was doing instead of protecting his son."

As far as predictions go, that's all I can see. If they only develop one character in S2, it needs to be him. Rhaenyra has Rockstar!Daemon, Rhaenys and Corlys on her side, so they'll have to upscale the green threat otherwise it's a bunch of grown people and veteran soldiers fighting two children who have no experience at anything because the oldest one is a 20-year-old frat boy and his brother is still a teenager. Aegon's going to have to really be villainous.

I feel like there's a reason all his nude scenes are with his mother, it's one of the few consistent things between them through the time skips and actor changes, and I feel like they're going to go fully 500% in that Commodus direction

and have him just be creepy and rapey with her in a "bad incest," how-the-turntables, "be careful what you wish for" way. Alicent's defining trait seems to be "perpetual victim," so I feel like they'll go this way and frame it as if she's getting what she deserves for slapping him around. Ten extra points if they have Rhaenyra or Rhaenys there on hand to be like "Is this your king?"

I don't see them doing anything with Rhaena besides sending her away, and I actively don't want to see Baela going out there getting her dragon killed and her face burnt off in defense of Rhaenyra.

I honestly try to not think about s2 of this.

I was a hardcore asoiaf fan but I didn't like Feast or Dance. I read Dunk and Egg, but he didn't finish that either. And when F&B came out, I got the audiobook and I listened to it for a few hours, probably less than five, and I couldn't concentrate because I kept thinking "Did this bitch seriously package his story notes as a novel for sale??? This is an insult to storytelling."

And I deleted it.

It's the quality for one thing. It's the lack of diversity, it's the author not finishing anything, it's the fandom being 20% fantasy fans, 80% trump rally...

Like, in just 10 episodes HotD has managed to give a voice to pro-rape feminists. Didn't even know that was a thing until I saw it on Twitter.

I saw some of the leaked pics of Helaena at the funeral on my feed, didn't have to scroll far to see people just casually r-wording Helaena and acting like having six fingers is a killing offense since eugenics rhetoric is apparently thriving in this fandom.

And on top of all that, the story doesn't even make sense.

I don't want to be like "dramaturgically speaking" but narrative coherence is a thing. Just from bing chat (yes, I'm using bing 😣):

Narrative coherence is the degree to which a story makes sense. Coherent stories are internally consistent, with sufficient detail, strong characters, and free of significant surprises. The ability to assess coherence is learned and improves with experience. Individuals assess a story's adherence by comparing it with similar stories. The ultimate test of narrative sense is whether the characters act reliably. If figures show continuity throughout their thoughts, motives, and actions, acceptance increases. However, characters behaving uncharacteristically destroy acceptance.

This show has curb-stomped narrative coherence.

Like, take that scene where they killed Vaemond. The way they write it, Rhaenyra has come back after 6 years of never visiting her father to drag him off his deathbed so he can support her in taking Driftmark, the seat of house Velaryon, away from Velaryon people to give it to her son by Harwin Strong. Vaemond is killed for telling the truth.

With different lighting and music, that's peak tyranny. That's some Mad King Aerys shit. In full view of all the lords at court. Every single person in that courtroom is aware that Luke is a bastard and they've just witnessed a lord like themselves get beheaded over it. This isn't Daemon killing commoners. He's killing the lords and ladies of Westeros.

But there's no fallout. Nothing. All the lords of Westeros cease to matter. It's just another Tuesday to them.

Hell, they go even further and frame the scene like Viserys is Old Theoden fighting off the curse of Wormtongue. Otto, Alicent and her goblin children all but shrivel and wither from the sunlight that Rhaenyra brings as Vaemond is cut down by noble Daemon. In that scene, Dark Sister might as well be Andúril, Flame of Old Valyria, sword of justice.

There are shows that are easy to watch that we say are "no brain cells required," but HotD is like, "No brain cells allowed. Switch them off or put them on silent so you don't disturb anyone."

I have no hope for season 2. I would never rec this to anyone or say that I think the writing will improve. The foundation is shit. You can't build a strong s2 on a shit s1 unless you're writing a procedural or an anthology where nothing that comes before matters.

You can't undo things like Alicent supporting Aegon as king because of a misunderstanding. There's a limit to how many things you can retcon without destroying all sense of continuity and they've already gone beyond that in s1.

They're past plot holes. They have whole parts of the world that are just void of all thought. Alicent and Rhaenys are characters who respawn and disintegrate from scene to scene as needed. Corlys is three lines of dialogue in a trenchcoat. Daemon Targaryen is somehow, impossibly, a less-developed Damon Salvatore.

No optimism here.

I'm that jaded ex fan who's like, "hotd is a barren wasteland, riddled with racists, ableists and toxic stans, and those are just the writers. The very fandom air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten-thousand Lindelof-level writers could they fix this shit."

But that being said, I have a really bad habit of watching shit TV.

I've seen Catwoman more than 5 times.

Waterworld, Jonah Hex, Elektra, Daredevil (Ben Affleck and Colin Farrell), Battlefield Earth, Supernova. At least 8 of the Fast movies. All the Transformers. Dracula 2000. All the old school classics of bad cinema.

I haven't watched Morbius as yet and the only reason why is because I feel like Jared Leto is intentionally trying to become Nicholas Cage and I don't want to support that.

There is something about the cringe that hooks me. And with a TV series? That weekly cringe? That is peak entertainment.

It used to take me 4 sometimes 5 hours to watch and digest a single episode of Titans because there were so many questions to think about.

I hyperfixate on bad writing. Trying to figure out all the ways it went wrong and why and what they were trying to do. Once I start, I can't stop thinking about it. I'm hoping swhhw gets it out of my system, but I don't know.

Like, anybody can make good TV. Anybody can do that if you try hard enough. But truly horrible TV isn't supposed to exist. It's like 20 million an episode to make HotD? Nobody is supposed to invest that in a show where the showrunner doesn't even know how old the characters are. Bad TV shows are supposed to be snuffed out before they see the light of day.

But HotD is something special.

You don't accidentally end up with a Koolaid Dragon busting up through concrete. A director described that scene to a VFX crew. The actors had to rehearse that repeatedly. They had to do a read-through...

Like, just think about that.

And then they announce that they're going ahead with s2 without writers?!

That is insane. Part of me says look away, and the other part of me says that s2 of HotD will be something the likes of which I'll never see again.

I really don't want to watch S2, but honestly, I might. Not because I think it will be better but because I'm dead certain it can only get worse.

[linklethehistorian]

Linkle, I must know, what are your thoughts on Mori as a character? His actions and motivations?? Id love to hear your opinion, btw that last chapter of cherish was great!! I loved it so much!!!

Ahhh hello there, anon, thank you so much! 🥺😭💕💖🥰 It’s such an honor to get a message like this from someone who is reading the fic. 💕🥺💖🥰💕🥺💖🥰 I’m so glad you liked Chapter 12; it definitely has one of my own personal favorite scenes, tbh (but I won’t take up your time talking about that right now lol). Having a fan base for Cherish is truly lovely; I’m so blessed by each and every one of you. 🥺💖

As for your question, I’m always happy to share!

Before I say anything at all on my opinion, though, I’m first going to make it clear that I am completely setting aside that one…particular matter that has been discussed to death by the fandom for the moment, because I fear far too many people tend to forget that it is entirely possible to make any remotely positive commentary on a fictional character without that actually somehow meaning you condone his alleged…preferences. For the people in the back that need to hear this out loud to be set at ease: I in absolutely no way do.

Now with that out of the way for a bit, let’s talk about the rest of Mori. I’ll throw it under the cut, though, both for length and for potential spoilers of multiple light novels (Dark Era, Fifteen, Storm Bringer, etc.) and obviously the manga up to his last appearance in current arc. Oh and obviously the typical Mori-related trigger subjects. Yeah.

Honestly, on a general note, these days I think Mori as a character is super cool; I’m not sure where precisely I’d rate him on the list of characters because I honestly like nearly every character in BSD and think they’re pretty awesomely written, but on a general scale of 1 to 10, he’s a very solid 8 or 9 for me.

My first introduction to him was…admittedly not at all the best possible representation of him.

When I first joined the fandom, I began my journey through the series by watching the anime adaption of Dark Era, at the behest of a dear friend who said I would be best off doing so before I watched the rest of the show (of which there were only two seasons at the time) and then reading the manga, in order to get the best and most meaningful experience; it is not something I remotely regret, and in honesty, I would probably wholeheartedly recommend any new people to do the same, if they intended to start with the anime. Regardless, though, this decision did have the impact of making me immediately strongly dislike Mori as a person from the very start, given what he did to the orphans, Oda, and Dazai by extension.

Really, I wouldn’t say that I came to see him in any particular shades of grey motivation-wise until I watched the episode titled Double Black, in which there was the first reference of what would have become of the Port Mafia and Yokohama as a whole had he not usurped the throne to the organization so many years ago.

After that, I began to look at him with a bit more understanding and curiosity, horrible and ruthless though his nature may still mostly have been. Fifteen (specifically the light novel, NOT the anime) — which it should be said, I think is the best existing canon representation of Mori in terms of giving us a good look at his thoughts and motivations — only amplified that outlook and interest for me, and I think it alone is largely to thank for why I enjoy him as a character as much as I do in current time.

Although he’s definitely not someone I’d feel particularly comfortable writing an entire story solely around — as I don’t believe I’m expert nor absurdly passionate enough to do so compared to some genuine Mori fans that I know are out there out there — I nevertheless really, really do enjoy writing him, especially in Cherish (which is only the second time I’ve written him, if I’m honest — at least, in anything I’d consider publishing, anyway).

There’s just so much potential in him plot and personality-wise; he is incredibly flexible of a person in terms of his thoughts, mannerisms, motivations, and actions, which makes it super fun to explore and play around with when telling a story. I’d say he easily has one of the most fun personalities among the BSD ensemble, purely because of utterly unpredictable it can be; on one hand, he has moments where (at least outwardly) is capable of being extremely friendly, outgoing, generous and unassuming, and yet on the other, he is very much always inwardly observant of all that is going on around him and capable of quickly switching to being cold, calculating, and openly cruel at the drop of a hat. But even then, usually, his cruelty doesn’t come in the form of physical violence; it’s often emotional manipulation, intimidation, taking your fears and weaknesses and using them against you to get him whatever he feels he needs in the present moment. Sometimes, it isn’t even outwardly visible that the switch of gears happened; he knows how to poison you in the sweetest and most unassuming yet effective way possible — whether that poison is literal or metaphorical. He’s definitely the kind of person who could sing you to sing to sleep every night and kiss your cheek every morning even as he’s secretly plotting your demise. lol

That being said, I think a lot of the fandom, in their hatred for him as a person, tends to mischaracterize him a lot, rather than looking at it objectively. I’ve seen a lot of fics and general fandom takes that portray him as a sadistic person who is cruel simply for the sake of being cruel and does terrible things to others purely for the enjoyment factor, but that is 100% not who Mori is; canonically, Mori does what he does mostly, if not entirely, out of what he feels is necessity as the leader of the organization. Now, I’m not saying there may not be parts of him that enjoy certain things he does — it’s certainly more than possible, and even highly probable — but his actions as godfather are driven by achieving what he feels is the optimal solution, not by personal pleasure and amusement; as a matter of fact, in Fifteen, he even made it clear when speaking to Chuuya that he fully acknowledges a lot of what he does is morally reprehensible — he just feels that it is his duty to commit these atrocities for the ‘greater good’ of the organization, and that the end therefore justifies the means.

The thing is, there is a character in BSD who is exactly the way this portion of the fandom characterizes Mori, and he was even a member of the Port Mafia, so if people really wanted to canonically explore this dynamic of a character who wholly gets off on tormenting people, causing suffering and probing others’ heads rather than doing it as just a business practice, they absolutely could still do it and be true to canon by writing about said other character; it’s just that it’s not a convenient truth that a lot of the fandom wants or likes to face — because that would mean acknowledging that it was everyone’s beloved Dazai and not the oh-so-despised Mori who used to think in such a sick and twisted way during his days in the criminal underworld.

Granted, some people do write both characters very well and very accurately, and I applaud them, but I do find it frustrating when the fandom reduces either Mori to this purely evil, sadistic villain who is bad just for the sake of being bad, because he is so much more interesting as he truly is in canon.

It’s this dichotomy where his dedication to the overall well-being of his people and company is admirable and even understandable, yet at the same time his individual actions when you look at them from a moral perspective are pretty much all morally reprehensible in some way, shape, or form — if not in every way. The same is true of his time in the army; as a general concept, his desire to protect Japan during the Great War was on the whole admirable and understandable, we know that he was well-meaning about it, but at the same time, no matter how desperate the situation was, what he did to Yosano and his entire army was absolutely disgusting and unacceptable — especially because it came so easily to him to do it and he made no apologies for it nor expressed any guilt over the suffering he caused later on.

Do I think Mori is, on the whole, a good person? Absolutely not. Do I think that he sometimes has the best of intentions in mind with his schemes? In the grander scheme of things, yes; it’s just that he mostly doesn’t care who or how many he has to hurt to achieve that so long as it’s slightly less than his net gain from doing it, which in turn cancels out things enough to prevent him from ever being labeled as being or acting as a “good person” at any moment.

I think the best, most objective description of him is to say that he’s pragmatic and ruthless.

…And then obviously there’s the part that everyone in the fandom discusses to death — about the main universe version of him being into little girls. Not a whole lot to say about that; it’s gross, it’s wrong, it’s unforgivable, it’s morally reprehensible, and it’s chilling and disturbing and it definitely completely disqualifies him from being labeled a good person even if he had been able to earn that title from something he did somewhere along the way.

That being said — and I know this is probably going to be controversial to a lot of the fandom, so let me say upfront that I’m not saying that that isn’t 100% a valid and understandable reading of who he is and the way he feels based on all the evidence throughout the series, nor am I trying to convince anyone otherwise — purely because it is fiction and therefore all made up to begin with, at least for my own personal comfort, I typically choose in my own personal readings to just look at him as someone with a particular weakness for little girls because he’s fatherly — although I make no effort to claim that to be the objective truth, nor does such interpretation affect or influence any of my writings in any way; it’s simply the way I prefer to engage with BSD on my own personal time — outside of my writings.

As a matter of fact, in my one fic, Bittersweet Belief, he was intentionally written with the intention of being portrayed as a groomer, and in Cherish, his ‘tastes’ will be portrayed no less nor more suspicious than how they are in canon, and therefore it will never be fully, directly addressed, but may be interpreted however you wish.

I do not need people coming to me providing evidence of why they believe there is no way to look at it differently, as again, I am not arguing that it is objectively untrue in any way that Mori is written to be a pedo in BSD, and when in public spaces among other people talking about it I don’t even try to say otherwise, much less convince anyone of it. I understand fandom etiquette and I am not trying to erase anything about him from others’ perceptions in order to make him more “likable”. I am just engaging with BSD, whenever I am personally reading it and watching it, in the way that is more comfortable for me. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, yeah, Mori’s a super fun character to write and observe in the BSD world! I think there’s a lot of depth to him and he’s very well-written — probably among my top past antagonists purely for the super interesting personality and the purely pragmatic outlook to life and business.

[astaroth1357]

How the Brothers Would Try to Corrupt MC w/ Their Sin

I have a headcanon that it's part of demonic nature to try and corrupt humans. Though I think it would be unlikely that the brothers would try to intentionally corrupt MC post-pact, it's still like second nature to them. That means they may try to unintentionally, uh… infect their soul with sin and drag them down into eternal damnation! They don't mean it, but be careful MCs of the world.

Lucifer

One of the hardest things to do can be to make others take pride in themselves… but Lucifer is always ready for a challenge.

The name of the game is praise. The human mind can be easy to manipulate so with enough praise even the most stubborn human will start to believe a drop of their own hype.

Building up pride is a steady thing... He'll usually pick a strength or talent of the MC to give high praise. Perhaps they sing beautifully or they're rather clever, don't worry. He'd let them know.

Light sprinkles of praise steadily increase their self-esteem, which may seem nice and almost healthy at first, but in truth he's laying a trap… He knows how effective his words can be and he's just waiting for them to go to the MC's head.

You think then he would be done right? Oh no. That's not the fun part. What's fun is to then offend that pride he's spent so long building.

He thinks it's cute, really. A small comment here or a little condensation there and they'll get so mad. It's just so amusing!

Of course, he can't take what he dishes, so they'll need to watch out. But don't worry he loves them, even if they're just a little too fun to play with…

Mammon

Since when does the Avatar of Greed give gifts?

Really, that should be the MC's first red flag. Mammon isn't known for generosity, so when he's spending what little money he can hold onto on them, it's time to raise some eyebrows.

It may seem nice, almost sweet, when he manages to track down a rare vintage of wine for them or take them out to a ritzy restaurant for the night but unfortunately it's all just part of the plan…

Nobody has tastes higher than Mammon. He can't afford them most of the time, which leads to compromises, but given all the Grim in the world he'd be living in the lap of luxury - which is exactly the kind of lifestyle he wants the MC to crave too.

Anyone, no matter how modest, can give into temptation. How easy would it be to taste the sweetest wine or enjoy the most wonderful trip then want to do it again? It may seem innocent at first, but piling on the finer things can soon have the MC craving for them when they pass.

Then all Mammon needs is to make little promises, "If I make it big this time, then we'll go to France!" or, "If I win this next hand then I'll buy ya another glass." 

So how many times will the MC give Mammon a pass, then? Will they stop questioning how he comes up with his cash? Will they let him gamble just that "little bit" longer? Will they even join him...?

If they keep getting that taste of luxury, then maybe it's not so bad… right?

Leviathan 

You think the easiest way to get the MC jealous would be to flirt with other people since that's how most people go about it but, uh… 

This is Levi we're talking about. Casual flirting is pretty much out of the question.

So what is a demon to do to get their hapless human jealous? The answer is, be patient.

No one's perfect, humans especially! They'll slip up eventually… 

Maybe someone from back home just got a new car or they're sending out marriage invites. 

Maybe they have a friend who's better than them at school or sports or there's just someone who has something they want: Money, talent, looks, followers, friends, you name it. When they see it, he can feel that envy creeping in…

From there, all he has to do is feed it. Let the world poke at their little insecurities for him while he plays the supportive boyfriend!

"Did Mammon really get the promotion? I thought it would have been you! That's so unfair..."

"Satan beat your scores again? What is this, the third time? Doesn't that suck?"

Small little comments… but all with a goal to fill the MC with toxicity...

"Are Asmo videos still doing better than yours? I think I know how to drop his numbers... if you want."

And soon enough, anyone can be an enemy. Everyone has it better than them… so they push the world away in order to feel better. And they become so toxic, the world rejects them in turn...

Except, of course, for their loving boyfriend, Levi.

Satan

If you want to keep someone mad, it's best if you're not the actual one doing it.

I know, it sounds counterintuitive, but turning yourself into the enemy risks the target cutting you out. Satan knows this, so he'll never enrage the MC directly...

But indirectly? There's a start.

Everybody has little pet peevs. Tiny things that aren't important, but dig under the skin nonetheless.

Breadcrumbs in the butter, gum-smacking, toe-tapping, tones of voice, or just little annoying inconveniences that can sour one's day...

Satan is well-versed in these tiny annoyances, he'd dare say they're in his domain. And, perspective that he is, he'll know what frustrates the MC soon enough.

Then it's just a matter of execution.

Maybe he jacks with their toothpaste tube or "conveniently" forgets where they put their books... Or they keep mysteriously finding fingerprints on their game disks or seemingly can't keep their room organized to save their life!

It may just seem like the world hates them... but really it's just their demonic lover.

These tiny details and little mishaps will just build and build like cracks in their foundation until it all breaks and comes crashing down… and he'll be right there egging on every moment of it!

Asmodeus 

You would think that Asmo would have the easiest time tempting the MC into his sin, but that's not so.

Sure, most traditional definitions of Lust begin and end at carnal desire, but what about those MCs who maybe aren't so drawn to the sins of the flesh? Fear not! Because the keyword for Asmo is desire.

Really, Asmo is happy if the MC's mind is full of nothing but him. He wants them to desire him, to love him obviously, but to the point of obsession. His heated kisses and sensual whispers are only means to that end, which can change whenever he needs.

The MC will have their life bombarded by their beautiful demon. It's not an unwelcome smothering, he's among the best boyfriends they could ever hope to have, which is exactly why he’s so effective!

He wants them to need him at every moment. Soon it will feel weird to go places alone without their demon… Certain things they could do themselves, like their hair or getting dressed, they'll want him to do instead.

Of course, if he's able then he'll certainly seduce them as well and at every chance he gets! From the House to RAD and even in the throne room - he's shameless!... But that's the fun, isn't it?

Beelzebub 

Oh Beel… He's probably the most dangerous one of them all. Not because he's so demonic, but because he's so sweet!

When Beel makes food for the MC or orders them an extra side, he does so with love. He just wants them to be full! ...or so he thinks.

Beel's demonic instincts creep up on even him, he's just not one to really question what or why he does things sometimes. He'll know he has the urge to see the MC eat or just be indulgent… but he won’t know why.

You could actually say it works to his advantage. Whenever he offers the MC another turkey leg or a few more bites of cake, his tenderhearted insistence is often so sweet that they'll just go along with it and try to keep eating… even if they're already full.

Now, the human body can only take so much food at once, but over time it can adapt to changing habits.

Eventually, the MC will find their appetite expanding to catch up… They'll stop feeling full as easily as they used to and soon the bigger portions that Beel gives them will be all but a necessity!

Of course, the worst case scenario is that this doesn't happen at all and they do serious harm to their health by always pushing past their limits… but there's no guarantee Beel's solution won't just be more food anyway.

Belphegor 

Belphie is the only brother who will knowingly (and gleefully) try to make the MC as sinful as he is!

It's all for selfish reasons. If the MC is slothful, then they'll want to go out less and (probably) spend time with him more. Win-win if you're Belphie.

Since he's well aware of what he's doing, he's pretty damn effective at it. No other brother will be as committed to meddling with the MC as he is.

He'll convince them to cancel plans or sabotage their alarms so they oversleep. He'll suddenly be unable to sleep without them while his naps seemingly get longer and longer… And if they have something to do, he'll be the voice in their ear saying it can wait!

Really, at any opportunity he can get Belphie will try to drag them down or slow their progress with the sweet, sweet promise of relaxation or a good time...

Sure, it may sound nice at the time - great even! - but it won't take long for their promises to break or deadlines to pile up… Sure, the MC could try to catch up but wouldn't that be too much work? Wouldn't they rather rest instead? Why even worry about it?

It's a seductive line of thought and Belphie sells it well, it'd take only the most motivated MC to resist his charms but like that'd stop him. If he wants the MC for himself, he'll happily put their life on hold to do so. Just go with it... yeah?

[alovelyburn]

What do you think the endgame of Berserk would be like if Griffguts became canon? And what do you think would happen to Charlotte and the rest of the Black Swordsman party as a result?

....that's quite a question!

I mean in part it depends on what you mean by "canon" - if it's just explicit confirmation of their feelings then I don't imagine much would really change since the feelings are already present.

If you mean them literally ending up together romantically that's a WHOLE can of worms like you have to ask how they'd arrive in that place to begin with and then extrapolate from there about what the effects of that would be.

So let's see, if we're arriving at "Griffith and Guts get together" in this hypothetical Berserk ending, the first thing we need to do is ask what would make that possible. And since the question is about what the ending would be like under these circumstances (rather than like, what kind of fanfic would you write about this thing) I'm going to try to stick to things that would be tonally appropriate and fulfill the narrative promise as best as I can and not like, send them back in time or whatever.

So the first step to getting them to a place where they'd get together without completely going off the rails would be getting them on the same side. The good thing is they aren't really motivated by the same things and so their drives could theoretically both be achieved simultaneously.

For Guts I think there's only one real thing that could enable him to let go of his grudge and that is getting Griffith to a place where he can give Guts what he needs in order to move on. This basically means making him feel the weight of his actions and regret them or at least feel bad about it. That shouldn't be that difficult though, you'd just have to unfreeze his heart. It would probably also help if Guts were given some kind of understanding of why Griffith made the choices he did - a view of the Eclipse mindfuck sequence for example. I don't think understanding in itself would be enough but it would be a point along that path.

For Griffith as it stands what he wants is obviously to pursue his ambitions until he runs out of sky, more or less. Also to change the world. ...I kind of feel like once you get Guts to let go of the past, getting him on board with this wouldn't be that hard, but the other thing is that getting Guts on board would mean unfreezing Griffith's heart and if you do that then the entire equation changes since then the dream/ambition ceases to be the thing he is most invested in. So I think you could justify either having Griffith remain on the throne and Guts become like his enforcer/general, or having Griffith make the sacrifice of walking away from it.

I think for shippers in particular the second is more satisfying (well not for me necessarily, but I mean as a generality perhaps?). It's also probably the most... balanced outcome? There's poetry in it for sure - Griffith gave up everyone he loved in order to hold onto his dream, so in order to regain favor with the one he loves, he has to give up the thing he sold them out for. It would also get around the issue of Guts having to like, live and cooperate with the Apostles who ate the Hawks and raped Casca.

So I guess at this point in the brainstorming we have "Griffith somehow gets his emotions back and feels the weight of his actions, then gives up his dream in order to regain Guts' trust and affection."

So what would that mean for the RPG group.

Well I think in order to get to the this point Casca would probably have to be dead already. As long as she's alive Guts would have a very difficult time moving on, because she is a walking reminder of that betrayal. The other two things I can think of would be Casca becoming an apostle, thus removing a lot of the moral tug of war for Guts, or Casca just ditching them. I'm not sure the latter is really in character, though. Either way I don't see her still hanging around if Guts and Griffith made up - it's kind of a smack in the face if she has her memories back.

Isidro probably doesn't care about the moral implications of forgiving Griffith so I don't see why he'd necessarily leave.

I think that, aside from Casca, Schierke would have the biggest problem with it since her nature/background means she knows a bit more than the others about what Griffith is, and more importantly than that, he had Flora killed. So my feeling with her is that she'd be incredibly hurt and would leave.

This puts Farnese in a position where she has to choose between her loyalty to Guts and her loyalty to Schierke. Depending on how much she knows about Casca's background at this point, and depending on what happened to Casca, that could also be a major factor. In any case, given that her primary reason for following Guts was to find her way, and her other thing with Guts is that she's in love with him, but in this scenario he's decided to hook up with Griffith, I think she would ultimately leave with Schierke.

And obviously Serpico goes with Farnese, although I imagine he'd be more ambivalent about the choice itself.

Puck just goes where Guts goes, and Ivalera goes with Schierke.

...So I guess the outcome of this path would be Guts and Griffith traveling with Isidro??!?!

Additional thoughts:

-I'd probably have Schierke, Farnese and Serpico either go back to Flora's forest and try to rebuild there, or keep traveling and learning new things and seeking new systems of magic.

-Does that make Isidro Guts and Griffith's adopted kid, IDEK.

-I guess this route leaves Falconia in Charlotte's hands. I think it's be interesting if Casca became an apostle and then remained in falconia to support Charlotte by keeping the demon armies in check, though I'm not sure it actually makes sense for her to be able to do that. ...also a lot of them assaulted her uh let's kill all of the survivors from the eclipse off so there's just some that didn't assault her. Ahem. EDIT: Actually unless you can find a way to de-godhand Griffith he's still the master of the apostles. so maybe he could just give the eclipse apostles another assignment I guess?

-Locus and Zodd would probably defect from Falconia and follow Griffith around. Two out of five morning Griffith would wake up to find Guts in a physical fight with one of them over some completely inconsequential bullshit.

-I have no idea about the tertiary rpg group. Leave them in Falconia maybe.

-EDIT: With Schierke being gone this leaves Griffith in charge of ego-checking the armor, I think?

Obviously there are other ways to go with it, and it's not even like what I personally would do, but I do think it's one of the more believable routes one could take toward that outcome.

It's tough though - even though I'm the first to say Guts would forgive Griffith if even a good reason to, I do think the story itself is s designed to prevent them from actually getting anywhere. And in the end I feel like if they ever reconcile it'll be on one or both of their death beds.

Or... death battlefields. As the case may be.

[lokiondisneyplus]

Yes, Loki series director Kate Herron knows about your fan theory about the show, the analysis you posted to social media. No, she won’t tell you what she thinks about it, or whether you were right.

“I follow all the conversations on Twitter,” Herron told Polygon in an interview shortly after Loki’s season 1 finale. “I don’t always weigh in on them, because I made the show, so they don’t want me weighing in like, ‘Actually, guys…’ I think that’s the whole point of art — it should be up for debate and discussion.”

[Ed. note: Spoilers ahead for season 1 of Loki.]

Loki has been a hit for streaming service Disney Plus — episode 6 of the show, the final installment for this season, was reportedly watched by more households than any of the platform’s MCU finales to date. The series has been a popular source of fan conjecture and argument, with one particularly big rolling conversation focusing on whether the budding romantic relationship between trickster Asgardian Loki (Tom Hiddleston) and his alternate-universe counterpart Sylvie (Sophia Di Martino) is a form of incest.

Herron is willing to speak up about that one. “My interpretation of it is that they’re both Lokis, but they aren’t the same person,” she says. “I don’t see them as being like brother and sister. They have completely different backgrounds […] and I think that’s really important to her character. They sort of have the same role in terms of the universe and destiny, but they won’t make the same decisions.”

Herron says thematically, Loki falling for Sylvie is an exploration of “self-love,” but only in the sense that it’s Loki learning to understand his own motives and integrity. “[The show is] looking at the self and asking ‘What makes us us?’” Herron says. “I mean, look at all the Lokis across the show, they’re all completely different. I think there’s something beautiful about his romantic relationship with Sylvie, but they’re not interchangeable.”

Directing the final kiss between the two characters was a complicated process because it had to communicate something about each of them over the course of just a few seconds. Herron says the primary goal was creating a safe, comfortable environment for Hiddleston and Di Martino, and after that, she had to think about how to bring across Loki and Sylvie’s conflicting goals in that moment.

“It’s an interesting one, right?” she says. “Emotionally, from Sylvie’s perspective, I think it’s a goodbye. But it’s still a buildup of all these feelings. They’ve both grown through each other over the last few episodes. It was important to me that it didn’t feel like a trick, like she was deceiving him. She is obviously doing that, on one hand, but I don’t feel the kiss is any less genuine. I think she’s in a bad place, but her feelings are true.”

Herron says directing Hiddleston in the scene mostly came down to discussing the speech Loki gives Sylvie before the kiss. “That was really important, showing this new place for Loki,” Herron says. “In the first episode, he’s like, ‘I want the throne, I want to rule,’ and by episode 6, he isn’t focused on that selfish want. He just wants her to be okay.”

Loki writer and producer Eric Martin recently tweeted that he wished the show had been able to focus more time on two of its secondary characters, Owen Wilson’s Time Variance Authority agent Mobius M. Mobius, and Gugu Mbatha-Raw’s Ravonna Renslayer. “I wanted to explore her more deeply and really see their relationship,” he says, “But covid got in the way and we just didn’t have time.”

Asked if Loki and Sylvie’s relationship suffered from similar necessary edits, Herron says it’s true that the show’s creators and audience still don’t know everything Sylvie went through to make her so different from the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s original version of Loki. “We’ve seen her as a child, but she’s lived for thousands and thousands of years, in apocalypses on the run,” she says. “I think there’s so much more to delve into with Sylvie […] You’re filling in the blanks. You see [her on the planet] Lamentis, and it’s horrific. And you’re like, “Well, what kind of person would she be, growing up in apocalypses? What kind of personality would that give her?”

Herron says Sylvie’s backstory actually reminds her of the 1995 movie Jumanji, where a young boy is sucked into a magical board game in 1969, and emerges 26 years later as a full-grown man, played by with typical manic energy by Robin Williams. “It’s such a weird reference, but…” she says. “He’s a little boy when he ends up captive in that game, and when he comes out, it’s obviously been a life experience. With Sylvie, it’s similar. She was a child when she had to go on the run, so she’s had a very difficult life. I would love to see more of it. As Eric said, she’s a rich character, there’s so much to be explored.”

Herron says, though, that during her time on the show, material about Sylvie was added rather than cut — specifically, those scenes of her as a child, being kidnapped by the TVA. “This was before my time, but I know in the writers’ room, there were lots of avenues exploring Sylvie on the run and what her life was like,” Herron says. “I wouldn’t want to speak more to those, because I wasn’t there when they were being discussed. But something wasn’t in there that was important to me — I felt we should see her [history] in the TVA. Me and the team were talking about how it made complete sense, because episode 4 is all about twisting the idea that the TVA might be good on its head. And so that’s something that came in later, once I joined, was seeing her as a child. I think we needed to see that, not to understand her completely, but to get an idea of her motivations, why she’s so angry at this place.”

Talking more broadly about the series finale, Herron says the last few episodes weren’t as heavily referential as the first episodes, which she intended as “a love letter to sci-fi.” While early images like the TVA’s interrogation rooms had specific visual references from past science fiction, episode 6’s locations were drawn more from collaborations with the crew.

“The idea of the physical timeline being circular, our storyboard artists came up with that,” Herron says. “I had in the scripts, ‘We move through space to the end of time,” and then me and [storyboard artist Darrin Denlinger] discussed how we could play with the idea of time, while also adding MCU nods. He was like, ‘What if the timeline is circular?’ I think that’s such a striking image, like the Citadel at the End of Time is the needle on a record player. I just thought that was such a cool image, but it wasn’t necessarily taken from anything.”

Episode 6 focuses heavily on the mysterious figure He Who Remains and his citadel, a space she says was largely conceived by production designer Kasra Farahani. “I remember he brought in the art of the Citadel, and I thought it was beautiful,” Herron says. “He said, ‘The Citadel has been carved from an actual meteorite,’ which I thought was such an inspired idea. And He Who Remains’ office is the only finished portion of it.”

She says there are only a few direct homages in episode 6, including the zoom shot through space, which directly referenced a similar sequence in Robert Zemeckis’ 1997 film Contact.

“And then I have my Teletubbies reference for episode 5,” Herron says. “I wanted the Void to feel like an overgrown garden, like a kind of forgotten place. And I realized I’d pitched it as the British countryside. I remember trying to explain it to ILM, who did the visual effects, and saying, ‘Oh, you know, it’s like the Teletubbies. It’s just rolling hills, but they go on forever.’ That actually was quite a helpful reference in the end, which is funny.”

Asked for her favorite set memory from shooting the season, Herron says it comes down to Tom Hiddleston starting a mania for physical exertion before takes. “Sometimes he runs around set to get himself in the right mindset before he performs,” she says. “He does pushups. You know, you’re going into an action scene, you want to look like you’ve just been running. And it became infectious across all the cast. We’ve got so much footage of — I think Jack [Veal] ended up doing it, who plays Kid Loki. I’ve got [shots of] him and Sophia doing pushups and squats, just to get ready. It was so funny watching that echo across all the cast. I think all of them ended up doing those exercises with him at some point. It was so funny.”

“That might be my favorite set story, but it’s honestly, not a sweet one,” she adds. “I would say my favorite thing is his enthusiasm. He’s a very kind empathetic person. We were filming this in quite tough circumstances, a lot of people were far from home and isolating, and he brought this warmth and energy and joy to the set every day. And I think that made everyone feel very safe and very bonded. I’m forever grateful to him for doing that.”

[travellingarmy]

║Kaeya║Goodbye Kiss

Gender-neutral.

Angst.

Word count: 1.7k

---

It is time..

He had fulfilled his duties as a spy and so, it was time for the rightful heir to the throne to return to his home, Khaenri'ah. However, he guilts the thought of going back. In the beginning, he only had one reason of lingering around Mondstadt for a while but now that that he was done, there was really nothing left holding him back to return. So, why is he wavering?

His eyes- both visible- stare at the oh so familiar ceiling of your home. He had grown to love the sight of it over the years. His eyes seemed to sparkle in the night, a hand behind his head. Those eyes if his had always been unique and mysterious apropos to others one would meet along the way. It held a secret that makes one so interested in the soon-to-be former Cavalry Captain, but they could never unveil the truth behind them-- not even you.

Not even you who lay beside him bare and snuggled against him, a hand on his chest. Not even you who was most closest to the knight. If you couldn't do that, who could?

You made a sound during your sleep, gaining the attention of the man. His eyes glistened upon landing sight on you. His heart raced at everything you do. He was happy with you, but he also bitterly blames you for being the reason he was hesitating. Why did you go make such a man fall for you? No, what was it about him that made you fall into his arms? Surely, you could see just how scary those eyes of his, right?

Honestly, you were the first to approach him knowing the darkness that he had carried since young. You dare not question what his past was or where he came from. You openly loved him, but he was going to be your heartache.

If only, he thought, if only he didn't fall into the hole you had made, he would leave Mondstadt all behind without looking back. When did he trip? Was it the first glance of you? There was really something about your eyes that intrigued the male.. Yeah, that was probably it. Something in your eyes shone something he had not seen in himself. Your eyes were free of hidden motives and your quick-witted actions proved that.

Maybe, he was interested because he felt jealous of you. Jealous that you didn't have to carry a burden of a task since young. Maybe he had gotten close to you to take that glimmer in your eyes. After all, he was a man with ulterior motives, no?

Ah, that did no good to Kaeya. He tried to convince himself over and over that there was something he wanted to take from you but as you lay bare beside him, he felt himself at a loss.

You mumbled in your sleep, once more making sounds to gain the attention of the male. Whatever you were dreaming about, it obviously was a pleasant one. He chuckles lowly and put his free hand behind the back of your head, moving you closer to his lips so he could place a kiss on the crown of your head.

"I love you."

-

The clacking of hurried heels and boots greet you upon entering the headquarters. It was early in the morning but everyone was jolted awake and masked with a stern look, brows furrowing as they rush past you.

You knew what was happening. Otherwise, you would still be lazily getting out of bed. "Acting Grand Master," you greet the blonde whose back was facing you. The call of her title brought her attention from another knight to you. "(Y/N), I'm so glad you're here. Have you seen Kaeya?"

Indeed, you have seen Kaeya. Hoewever, it was just a glimpse before your tired eyes fluttered shut for another hour. "No, I haven't." Jean sighs but did not dwell on the thought of the captain. "Well, we'll just pray to Barbatos that he comes soon. We need all the hands to protect the city from the Abyss."

Something inside you churned. Something was calling out to you that you failed to listen. What is it? Why was dread washing over you at the thought of Kaeya? Surely, he would be fine to take on a couple Abyss mages and hilichurls, right? Well, it doesn't matter. Even if he can take down a whole army, you should still be by his side, fighting with him.

Not waiting for orders from the Acting Grand Master, you made a bolt towards the gate. Jean shouted your name but you ignored it as that churning feeling grew inside you. "Kaeya.."

The entirety of Mondstadt was surrounded at all fronts. All sorts of Abyss mages and hilichurls attacked like savages, using this chance to take down the city while the rest of the troops were still coming their way.

Your eyes darted around, hoping to see the Cavalry Captain somewhere amongst the many men who were trying to by more time for backup to come.

You bit your lips, drawing out the blood to trickle down. Where in Teyvat is Kaeya when you needed him most? It wasn't the time for him to go drinking in a bar, getting wasted.

Not wanting to waste more time dwelling on the thought, you took the lead, running past the other knights and heading deeper into the battle. "Captain!" A knight had called your title but you dare not turn around. Something was telling you that Kaeya was further in, and you were going tl follow it. Knowing Kaeya, it does sound like him for him to rush before anybody else. "Please, Kaeya.. Please be okay."

Clearing any enemies in your way, you felt your heart become lighter at the sight a his familiar back, but you dare not break into a smile. It would just make you lose your focus on the fight.

"Kaeya!" You called, but that failed to reach his ears amongst the chaos around. You were drawing near, noticing that the army started to grow thin in the back.

You were about to call him a second time but the words got stuck in your throat, seeing that the male was talking to an Abyss mage. It confused you. Why is the Abyss mage bowing to Kaeya? Why isn't it attacking Kaeya?

The mage looks up, eyes looking past Kaeya and onto you. "Your highness, behind you," the mage gestures him to look behind. Wait, did the mage call him 'your highness'?

Kaeya turned around to look at you, revealing you both of his eyes that held no warmth as usual when they laid upon you. You were stoned into the spot, mouth feeling dry. What were you supposed to say at this point? Your head dizzied, wanting to collapse on the ground for support.

When your silence was prolonging further activities, his eyes narrowed coldly and his mouth drew a wider frown of displeasure. "(Y/N), what are you doing here?" His voice was montoned and no longer spoke in a flirtatious manner.

The mystery behind his eyes were revealed to you; the mystery that all of Mondstadt wanted to know yet could not get close enough to know.

You gulped back the lump that grew. Surely, there is some misunderstanding, right? Kaeya just wanted to toy with the mage before he killed it, right? Yeah, that has to be it. "K, Kaeya, Acting Grand Master wants you back and help protect Mondstadt.." Your eyes slightly widen in desperation, searching for the truth.

"Oh? Does she now?" A smirk tug his lips yet his eyes stayed the same. He turns his full body to face you and rested his knuckle on his hip. He was toying with you. "Y, yeah.. You better get back before she gets mad at you."

Kaeya chuckles at the look in your eyes, knowing that look all too well. "Why should I go back? I'm not from here so I have no reason to protect it." He shakes his head, all the while smiling. "(Y/N), I'm sure you already know that I am not from here, yes?"

"Where are you going with this, Kaeya? Please stop playing around and come back," you spoke with a shaky voice.

His smile drops. Were you seriously trying to convince yourself that he was a good man? He sighs and walks close to you, grabbing your chin in his hands. "Oh, (Y/N), you could be so cute at times. It almost makes me want to take you with me," his words were sincere. "But the land of sinners is not a place to call home for someone like you. So, be good and listen to when I say to stay." A flick of sorrow failed to catch your eyes.

Kaeya had not slept that night, waiting for the sun to shine through the curtains to tell him that it was time. As much as he wanted to stay with you, he was a sinner who ruled a land abandoned by the gods. He had no place in Mondstadt- with you- knowing his origins.

A tear slipped from the corner of your eyes, but Kaeya did not dare to wipe it away in fear that his heart would waver.

"Be good.. Protect Mondstadt.." He shows you one last genuine smile that you loved. His eyes allowed itself to show you his true feelings for you once more as well which just made your heart squeeze itself.

He brings your face, your lips, close to his. He was giving you one last kiss. A kiss that you would miss for as long as you lived. A goodbye kiss.

Tears left your eyes as he deepened the cherishing kiss.

He soon pulls away, watching your tears fall silently onto the ground. He smiles and turns on his heels to walk away, the Abyss mage following close behind him.

Your legs gave in and fell onto the ground as you watch the man you loved walk away from you-- never to return to Mondstadt-- to you.

Kaeya dares not to look behind. If he did, he had a feeling that he'll run up and hug you to stop those tears of yours. This was goodbye.

"Forget me and find someone else, lest you will be broken."

---

[algaeguy]

wowee

Alrighty I’m just gonna ramble on about my thoughts on the new quest (and things in general because I talk too much) and pray that at least some of it ends up coherent. Spoilers, by the way.

I’ve had this first theory since the last archon quest but got nervous and didn’t share, so here it is now. Maybe it’s an obvious thing that I’m just in the dark about, but I’m fairly sure that Dainsleif’s “Boughkeeper” title has a large part in explaining why he knows so much about things he really shouldn’t. From the newest quest, we learn that he is actually cursed with immortality, which could explain some it, but the guy still knows too much for it to simply be chalked up to his age. He’s literally the designated narrator for half of the official videos and knows a lot about what and who he talks about.

I suspect that the ley lines serve as an information network of some sort, and that Dainsleif’s position as Boughkeeper allows him access to it in one way or another. The only other places we really see the whole tree/branch thing is with the ley line branches, Irminsul trees, the Frostbearing Tree, and the tree who once had roots that spanned the whole continent (which we know the ley line branches were once directly a part of), all of which are connected in a way that I haven’t quite figured out yet. 

Now, from those screens that come up while the game is loading, we know that supposedly, the intertwined roots of the Irminsul trees far beneath the earth determine the pattern of the ley lines above, and we also know that ley lines are a “mysterious network that links the whole world together” and that they are said to remember everything that happens in the world. From this, I don’t think it’d be that much of a reach to say that Dainsleif can access that somehow.

Next. I do think there’s a pretty good chance that the Archons were involved in the destruction of Khaenri’ah. The Viridescent Venerer set actually tells us how the former Dendro Archon died during the cataclysm while in Khaenri’ah, which. Uh. That’s kind of really incriminating. 

However! Obviously, we’ve only heard this from Dainsleif’s point of view and he’s pretty biased considering his whole thing. We don’t know how much control Celestia has over the Archons’ actions, either, and I’m about 98% sure that some of them weren’t into it, and likely didn't even have a choice. Like, look at the Tsaritsa. Her whole thing is that sometime during the cataclysm, she witnessed something so view-shattering and unjust that her whole thing now is to “burn away the old world” and overthrow Celestia. 

I also can’t see Venti and Zhongli going along with the destruction of an entire nation with no hesitation. Like, obviously, again, Dainsleif is going to be biased, but from what we’ve been told Khaenri’ah didn’t even do anything divine-retribution-worthy. Celestia just seems be into dropping skyscraper-sized pillars and other things onto nations who get too good at being independent, for whatever reason. The new quest is definitely supposed to make us question the current systems of this world but I don’t think we’re meant to hate Venti or Zhongli, at least yet. I think they’re even kind of meant to be seen as the “best” out of the Archons, so to speak. (Not that I think they’re perfect, by any means.)

Like, just look at the way they’ve been presented to us, versus how some of the other Archons have been introduced (Storyline Trailer, my beloved). 

Raiden Shogun is made out to be some self-absorbed divine ass-kisser who doesn’t have humanity’s best interests at heart (which we know is supposed to be a thing you do as an Archon). She’s doing her whole confiscating visions and oppressive rule thing in an effort to be seen as more divine, but, as Dainsleif puts it, “what do mortals see of the eternity chased after by their god?”

The Dendro Archon/God of Wisdom is implied to not actually be as smart as somebody with that title is supposed to be, one way or another, and either has turned a blind eye to or blatantly encourages the “push for folly” in Sumeru. Can’t tell exactly what that would mean or entail (thanks, Dainsleif), but obviously. Doesn’t sound good.

Dainsleif says of the Hydro Archon that she “lives for the spectacle of the courtroom, seeking to judge all other gods. But even she knows not to make an enemy of the divine.” While the not making an enemy of the divine thing I get (I guess, coward), the whole “seeking to judge all other gods” bit seems very “remove the log from your own eye”-y. Like, you’re an Archon, too, what are you trying to prove here?

The Tsaritsa is- well, the Tsaritsa, as we know. While I do think we are meant to sympathize and agree with at least part of her core ideals and motives, she still is the one behind the Fatui and is, by extension, a war criminal. She also apparently has “no love left for her people”. It’s a bit of a complicated relationship that we have with her.

The only ones who Dainsleif does not directly slander in the trailer are Venti, Zhongli, and Murata. While I don’t think we have enough on her to come to any conclusions about her character yet, Venti does say of her that she is a “wayward, war-mongering wretch”. Now, he does also jab at Rex Lapis during this voiceline, but unlike with Murata we know that those two are buddy-buddy and it was very likely that it was “buffoon (affectionate)”.

Venti and Zhongli are also the first two Archons we encounter, which is important for multiple reasons.

Gonna derail for a bit because I don’t know where to start. But. The game very likely will (or at least should) end with no Archons.

Obviously, especially in light of the new quest (although this stuff has been floating around since the Dragonspine update and even before that), Celestia Bad. Like, cataclysmically bad (lmao). In fact, I’m highly certain that you could trace basically every problem in this game back to them, some way or another.

Even our main “villain” groups all seem to be gunning for Celestia. The Fatui obviously work for the Tsaritsa, who’s made it very clear that she plans to rebel against the divine. The Abyss Order, too, has their Deeply Upsetting plan of creating a mechanized god with the power to “topple the divine thrones of Celestia”.

Evidence points to an overthrow of Celestia at some point in the game, and considering how being an Archon or even a god is directly tied to Celestia, yeah. No more Celestia means no more Archons.

But even besides that, there’s a lot there to suggest that that’s where things are going.

I find it interesting how Mondstadt’s our prologue chapter, or that there’s even a prologue chapter of the game at all. Prologues are meant to set up ideas that will be present throughout the rest of the story, and Mondstadt does exactly that. Venti’s let the people of Mondstadt govern themselves and has almost completely been out of the equation for millennia, even if that means he is significantly weaker than his godly peers. When asked why he chose to do that instead of remain in charge and just give them freedom, Venti responds that “freedom, if demanded of you by an archon, is really no freedom at all.” This sentiment is also brought up in the Mondstadt portion of the storyline trailer, and the traveler even has a whole voiceline debating what Venti really meant when he said that.

This idea of freedom and that humanity is capable on its own is further reinforced in Chapter 1, in which Liyue learns to move on from the death of its Archon. Zhongli set up his plan with the intention of testing if his people could stand on their own legs without him there to guide them, and they do. He even expresses how pleasantly surprised he is that the Qixing were able to take advantage of the situation and seize control like they did. Keqing gives us this whole speech when we first meet her about how the adepti and gods underestimate humanity’s capability and how Liyue’s future is meant to be a godless one. This, in a way, extends to the rest of the continent as well.

In the storyline trailer (which I quote too often, I’m sorry. My favorite and only party trick is that I got bored one day and memorized the whole thing), Dainsleif spends the entire Khaenri’ah section musing about something similar. 

“In the perpetual meantime of a sheltered eternity, most are content to live and not to dream. But in the hidden corner where the gods’ gaze does not fall, there are those who dream of dreaming,” is obviously about the people of Teyvat vs. those in Khaenri’ah. While a future under the care of the Archons is a safe and reliable one, is it one that allows humanity to chase its potential to the fullest? Khaenri’ah was destroyed for flourishing like it did without gods, both as a punishment and a warning to everybody else.

“Some say a few are chosen and the rest are dregs, but I say we humans have our humanity.” This is in reference to visions. Throughout the game, this idea that, at least in the eyes of the gods, vision holders are more important than those without them, is constantly brought up.

In the commission “Leaves on the Wind”, Dr. Edith expresses how it often seems as if vision holders are the main characters of this world. From the notebooks we receive during the “Time and Wind” world quest, we learn that the Sumeru Academia actually discourages non-vision holders from conducting outdoor surveys, and how “these days... trying to be an academic when you don't have a Vision, it's really restricting...” Dainsleif even just straight up asks us what we think the gods think of vision holders and people in general during question time in that one quest.

In Lisa’s stories, we learn that the reason for her laziness is that a part of her is afraid of learning or doing too much, after witnessing what “uninhibited erudition” can do to people during her time in Sumeru. She also senses that something beneath the surface is happening regarding the distribution of visions. “For whatever reasons, the gods gave humans the key to changing everything, but they did not explain the cost involved. Lisa grew fearful of the truth.”

I forgot exactly where I was going with that last paragraph, but yeah. There’s definitely sketchy shit going on behind the scenes in regards to visions, possibly to keep people either quiet or complacent. I suspect it may even be to restrict access to certain knowledges or even the elements themselves. Anyways.

I lose track of my thoughts too often. Fuck. Right. Mondstadt and Liyue served as good examples of society under the rule of the Archons, and in Chapter 2 we will encounter our first bad example, showing us the pros and cons of the current situation. However, despite Zhongli and Venti seeming to genuinely care for their people, humanity’s wellbeing shouldn’t be reliant on how their god is feeling that day, and they shouldn’t have to look to the gods for a chance to become something greater than themselves, either.

Um. All that’s to say I’m just very excited to see where the story will go, and if Zhongli’s contract with the Tsaritsa is any indication then it’s gonna go somewhere good. Celestia bad, Archons bad but also not bad but also bad, I don’t know if what I just wrote actually even counts as understandable, thank you and good night.

[lovebecomeshim]

hello! your zutara posting today has finally motivated me to ask this question because I came to atla very late(last year, to be specific) and I Love It Very Much but am 1000% out of the loop as far as why what remains of fandom (at least that I've seen among my friends) is so very strongly zutara. I'm not opposed to it per se I just don't really know what has driven it to apparently be such a popular ship? can you help me understand and maybe convert me a little bit?

Hey!! Your ICON! :D I can try but I’m not sure how coherent I’ll be; however I AM sure someone a lot more competent will be willing to add to this. Either way, I’m glad you asked because my plan was to drag down as many people as possible with me.

*smacks the hood of zutara* this baby can fit so much mutual love and support!

This got so long, I’m so sorry. I don’t know how to put it under a cut on mobile and it already got deleted once so I’m scared to mess with it lol. Moving on.

I’m gonna start this with a disclaimer that im on mobile so formatting is tricky and I’m also really new to atla in that I only completed my first watch through in like 2019??? So some of my info is all just based on what I’ve picked up from Discourse 👀 so anyway the sparknotes version: zutara was wildly popular from the beginning. To the point where the atla crew internally disagreed on which ship should be endgame. (Ex. Bryke [showrunners] asked the writers to rewrite The Southern Raiders to make Zuko seem less ideal for Katara than Aang [which failed, depending on who you ask]; the animation team purposefully created a visual parrallel between Oma and Shu in the Cave of Two Lovers and Zuko and Katara in the catacombs under Ba Sing Se in the Crossroads of Destiny; etc.)

The ship was popular enough that Bryke actually chose to display zk fanart at a con for the sole purpose of mocking the fans, but that’s neither here nor there. The entire episode Ember Island Players, while a love letter to/parody of the whole show, was an opportunity to address zutara’s viability as a canon pairing (while, again, mocking zutaras for romanticizing that catacombs scene). Point is! It’s always been popular but with it not being endgame, there’s got to be something that’s given it staying power.

And that’s honestly got to do with three things: their dynamic, thematic cohesion, and potential.

(You know what... you know what, it’s four things. The fourth is they’re so aesthetically pleasing together and individually. Like, they’re just good looking people [specifically when they’re grown but they’re also cute kids] and that absolutely doesn’t hurt) (but it’s not the Point, it’s just nice to point out sometimes)

The dynamic is hard to get into without also looking at the canon pairings, but I think I can do that without unnecessary bashing. It’s just that part of the magic of zutara is really highlighted by what they give to each other that their other relationships don’t.

First off, it’s classic enemies to (would be) lovers. The absolute truest form of it. It’s not too different from how CS started out: a rogue antagonist with a job to do—but no personal vendetta against the future love interest—who is deeply and emotionally invested in his personal storyline (revenge/redemption) with little regard for how it effects other people after his entire life and genuine good nature are marred by suffering, and a fierce warrior girl with a strong moral compass and her own personal investment in stopping him (protect her family and save the world doing it). Obviously frustration and animosity grew between them by the nature of them being on opposing sides, but that just lends itself to the sweetness of their later reconciliation.

The thing is that while they’re wildly different on the surface (he’s a hot-headed prince of a fascist regime who is trying to capture the Avatar to please his father; she’s a nurturing daughter of the chief who is trying to protect and train the Avatar in order to topple his father’s throne) they find out that they have so much more in common both in their experiences and their personalities.

(What follows is an excessive use of the word “both” and I’m sorry about that)(I can edit it. I can do that. That IS an option............)

They both have an innate sense of justice that they are determined to see done (zuko, at the war meeting, sticking up for the Earth Kingdom kid when the guards torment his family, choosing not to steal from the pregnant couple despite his circumstances, abiding by his word to leave the SWT should Aang come willingly, etc.; katara, literally.... at any point). They both have pretty one-track minds at accomplishing certain goals once they’ve put their mind to it, regardless of a lack of support in that endeavor (it goes without saying I guess, but zuko’s entire hunt; katara’s determination to get the earth benders to fight back, her determination to absolutely destroy Pakku until he agrees to teach her, etc.). They both lost their mothers at young ages. Their worlds are war-torn and traumatizing to them both, if in different ways, but that ultimately forces them to grow up too quickly to be wholly independent individuals. They both have issues with their fathers (for WILDLY different reasons, but). They both hold extreme prejudices that they need to learn to overcome (which ties into thematic cohesion)(bit like Lizzie and Darcy in that way but magnified by a million). They’re both extremely emotional and empathetic—which can and often does result in loud outbursts. Katara’s a bit better adjusted and can temper her anger for longer than S1 Zuko can, but they both feel that anger deeply and have no compunctions expressing it (Katara is, usually, more justified, particularly in S1. Again, S1 Zuko is severely maladjusted but at the point when they could’ve feasibly become a couple, he’s so much better off with the way he carries himself). They both struggle with feelings of inferiority in their bending abilities when confronted with prodigal benders like Aang and Azula, but have the work ethic required to double down and become two of the most powerful benders in the three remaining nations. This is a little more minor but it is a parrallel that appeals to some shippers that they both have these alter egos in the Painted Lady (notably fire nation coded) and the Blue Spirit (water tribe coded) that are pretty different from who they are day-to-day and are useful in accomplishing a purpose that they as themselves cannot.

(I’m.... I just realized that this could potentially get very long. Should I have made a slide show with bullet points??????)

Anyway, similar. I know there’s more but there’s literally so much to love about zutara that I’ll drive myself a little crazy trying to compile all the ways they’re similar. (Just gonna say that at this exact moment I went back to add more similarities.... so okay then)

Once they’ve reconciled, we see how all of these things only lend themselves to a deeper intimacy together than they share with literally anyone else. There’s a steady partnership that positions them as the mom/dad of the gaang, while also providing the support necessary to allow the other to not have to carry so much responsibility. A lot of zutaras will point out how zuko is actually depicted doing the more domestic chores that are normally relegated to Katara once he joins the gaang, since the others in the group are two 12-year-olds and sokka. The one that sticks out the most is how he makes tea for the group and then serves them, while Katara is able to just relax with her friends around the fire. Fanon expands upon this a lot to Zuko helping with the laundry or the cooking or whatever else needs doing since he, as a once-refugee, is used to doing his own domestic tasks. Before Zuko joined, Katara was the one mothering everyone, sewing for them, cooking for them, etc. She’s always tending to the needs of the group, and that includes emotionally. She does the emotional labor for the gaang 99% of the time, but when she’s the one falling apart, she’s usually doing it alone and without the comfort that she normally provides for others. Until Zuko. And that’s before they’re even friends.

Which is WHY people romanticize the catacombs of Ba Sing Se so much. Katara is verbally attacking Zuko out of her own righteous anger but also her own prejudice when Zuko, surprisingly, chooses to be vulnerable with her. He’s been on a journey that’s opened his eyes a bit, but he’s never actively chosen to expose the rawest parts of his past to anyone. But for some reason he chooses to do that with Katara of all people. While she’s yelling at him. He sees her humanity, and for once can look past his prejudice and empathize with her. And this time, when she breaks down, she gets to be comforted. Katara normally talks about her mother when she’s trying to explain to someone else that she sees and understands they’re pain, as a form of comfort to them. Here, Zuko uses the exact same tactic. He sees her and he understands. And for zuko? He’s not being shut down. He’s allowed to articulate his pain regarding his mother without being ignored and made to internalize it, and he’s allowed to process how he feels about his scar out loud without being told that he deserved it. And then he lets her touch his scar, something we’ve seen him actively avoid before. He’s completely open to her and she’s completely open to him and all it took was one five minute conversation. She was about to use the little bit of Spirit water that she had, that she was saving for something Important, to heal the scar that still daily causes him pain just because they had, somehow, connected.

Plus there’s the whole parallel to the star-crossed lovers forbidden from one another, a war divides their people—

And then zuko messes up, he regresses, he gets what he wants and he HATES it. And the sense of justice he had as a child has been restored to him against his will and he can’t think of anything he wants to do more than the Right Thing, so he joins team avatar. Before he does that though, we get to see his relationship with Mai, which is where comparison really comes in. And what we see is Zuko, fresh off of his encounter with Katara in the catacombs, trying to be emotionally honest with Mai... and getting shut down and dismissed. Which is just how Mai is and it’s fine, but not for Zuko. Still, he keeps trying, and he keeps getting ignored or scoffed at or yelled at. Which is really a larger symbol for how he doesn’t fit in his old life anymore, but again that’s about thematic cohesion. He tries to articulate his anxieties about returning home, he tries to make romantic gestures, he tries to explain how morally conflicted he’s feeling—and Mai diverts to some kind of physical affection to shut him up and a parting comment that is pretty much always, in essence, “I don’t wanna talk about this.” So they don’t. On the other hand, once zuko and Katara are friends, we see him again emotionally distraught and caught up in his anxieties about facing Iroh, and it’s Katara who comes to him and listens to him and comforts and encourages him.

Similarly, we have Aang clamming up and getting uncomfortable whenever Katara shows any negative emotion, usually resulting in him making excuses or running away. Or, in the case of the Southern Raiders, lecturing her on how she needs to just let go of her anger about her mother’s murder. People have talked this episode to death and usually better than I ever could, so imma... keep it brief. There’s a serious disconnect between Aang and Katara in his ability to empathize with Katara and her needs that has her tamping down her vulnerability and amping up her anger. He tells her that he was able to forgive his people’s genocide and appa’s kidnapping (petnapping? Theft??), which is blatantly not true but also not an entirely equal parrallel to Katara’s situation, and continues making these little remarks throughout the episode. But it’s Zuko that Katara opens up to. It’s with him that she’s able to talk about the most traumatic day of her life, and it’s with him that she’s able to get the closure she needs, cementing their bond as friends and partners. This disagreement between Aang and Katara is then... never resolved. They just never bring it up and hear what the other is saying.

There’s a fic called The Portraits of Ember Island that has a line that so completely sums up the heart of the matter for why people love their dynamic. For context, zuko has woken up early to help Katara with the cooking and they spend the whole time just letting one another talk, and zuko stops to ask why she always just lets him talk. And so she stops to ask why he’s always helping, and it goes as follows:

There’s just... so much mutual support! Trust! Intimacy!! And it just continues like that from the Southern Raiders on, listening to each other, advising each other, watching each other’s backs! And then! Literally saving each other’s lives!! I will never be over the last Agni kai. Not ever. Zuko may have been willing to jump in front of lightning for anyone, but he actually did it for Katara. And in a show, that’s the thing that really matters. It’s a fulfilled trope usually exclusively applied to romantic pairings, and it ended up applying to Zuko and Katara. And then she ran out into the middle of a fight with tunnel vision just to get to him.

Also!! Also Zuko pushing Katara out of the way of the falling rocks at the Western Air Temple!! And Katara catching him as he fell from the war balloon that he fought Azula on!! Before they’re even getting along, they’re the ones reaching for each other. They come to this place of equal ground, as partners, who watch each other’s backs, call each other out but still listen attentively and understand, and provide the support that the other has been sorely lacking up until they knew each other (whether that be from lack of effort or lack of understanding from others, or an unwillingness to accept it for themselves).

Then, trailing along under the surface of this, we see the themes of the show totally embodied by Zuko and Katara as individuals and in their relationship to one another. There’s a YouTuber, sneezyreviews, who has a, like, 2-hour explanation on why she not only loves zutara but also believes that their endgame would’ve actually elevated the writing of atla to new levels particularly because of thematic cohesion and resolved character arcs. It’s the zutara dissertation I never knew I needed, and it’s funny and eloquent and effective, so I’m just going to sum up her section on thematic cohesion to the best of my abilities and then link it for whenever you have the time. And I HIGHLY recommend it, especially if you want a full understanding of what makes zutara so great and gives it such longevity.

Guru pathik has a line that goes something like this: separation is an illusion; things that seem different are just two parts of the same whole. Iroh also tells Zuko something similar: balance and strength are achieved when the different nations come together and influence one another and celebrate what makes them each unique. And this lesson is a massive central arc that both Zuko and Katara go through, moving past a black-and-white, good guys-vs-bad guys, us-vs-them mentality and into a greyer, more nuanced view of the world. Zuko sees the fire nation from an entirely new perspective and while he still loves and hopes for his nations future, he surrenders his blind loyalty to them in exchange for an unflinching loyalty to peace and love. Katara too had to come to terms with the fact that cruel people exist in the earth kingdom and water tribes, while some fire nation citizens are just regular, kind people who also need and deserve to have someone speak on their behalf. And this is honed in directly on how they view each other. They grow in their individual journeys to be open to the humanity in the other and then, once they’ve found that, they’re able to grow more in compassion for others in a beautiful feedback loop. And this is all matched in the symbolism repeatedly and intentionally associated with them in canon: sun and moon, fire and water, yin and yang, Oma and Shu who found love despite their warring nations. Their individual arcs are completed in each other and complement the themes of atla beautifully.

The canon pairs... just don’t. Which, again, is fine. But the very things that give atla longevity and popularity are anchored in zutara. Kat@ang doesn’t accomplish this. They’re... nice. Sweet. Especially when you erase a good portion of their interactions in S3. It could’ve been just a sweet love story. (Personally, the dynamic between toph and aang accomplish the same thing that zutara does, with complementary personalities that fulfill the theme of opposites blending in harmony) M@iko, on the other hand, is less sweet but I think wasn’t even supposed to last. Zuko’s relationship with Mai seems to represent his relationship with his old life as a whole. He can’t be emotionally vulnerable, he’s goaded into abusing his privileges, his agency and opinions aren’t respected. They just don’t have common ground with which to discuss anything that matters, so they don’t. As far as themes, the relationship doesn’t fit with atla. It’s zuko returning to and sticking with what is (on the surface) like him, what’s expected. Fire nation with fire nation. Fluid water bender with the flexible air bender. Like with like, separated from what is different and challenging and complementary.

And all of these things combined of course lead to the potential for the ship. I don’t know how familiar you are with the post-atla canon but... well, miss “I will never turn my back on people who need me”, miss “I don’t want to heal! I want to fight!” ends up living quietly in the SWT as a designated healer who turns a blind eye to the water tribe civil war happening right outside her front door. Which can be fine! People change! Some people just wanna stay inside. I just wanna stay inside! But the potential future for zutara is so much more satisfying, with Katara becoming the most unconventional Fire Lady the uppity old cads who are stuck on the old ways have ever seen. Fanon has her serving as a voice for the other nations within a kingdom at the point of its biggest political upheaval, as a confidante to Zuko who can actually help him while he’s trying to figure out how to move forward and make reparations. They have the opportunity, together, to accomplish what they both have set on their hearts to fight for: positive change that lends itself to harmony and balance. And the steambabies! A popular headcanon is that their firstborn daughter, the crown princess, is actually a waterbender, which causes such an uproar among the people who are adamantly clinging to the old ways. It’s just a future full of potential to be forces for good together, full of trust, intimacy, joy. The exact era of peace and love and balance that zuko announces that he intends to ring in with the start of his reign as Fire Lord is, again, magnified by the very personal zutara relationship. And we love to see it.

tl;dr zutara isn’t for everyone. Some people just don’t vibe with it. Some are nostalgic. Some love the canon they grew up with. Some have been disappointed for years. Some just see themselves in other characters and want their happiness instead. Whatever the reason, that’s fine. But for me, I love the way these two, from the moment they give each other a fair chance, are able to lower their walls and prejudices to see the other for the kindred spirits they are. They see each other’s humanity, and their response is to pour out love and support and compassion. I love that they’re a power couple in battle. I love the symbolism and, honestly, soulmatism that colors their every interaction. I love that they embody the whole storyline of atla in their relationship and how it develops, which is notably why their seasonal arcs always culminate in each finale with how they relate to one another. I love that zuko adopting a waterbending move is what actually saves his life and then katara’s. I love the chemistry! And I love the future they could’ve had, instead of the ones they were given.

So, in conclusion: I just think they’re neat and I hope you do too, at least a little bit. Even if it’s just respectfully from a disinterested distance cause you do you. And now here is the video I mentioned. I’m sorry this post got so long and then I gave you an even longer homework assignment, but I can’t recommend it enough. She says it all better than I can.

[the-ferocious-kittyrose]

Rewriting Haggar/Honerva’s redemption arc

One of the many things that bothered me about VLD S8 is Honerva’s redemption arc. While I was never fully against the idea of Honerva getting a redemption arc, I just didn’t want VLD to do it because I knew that they would fuck it up if they tried. And low and behold, I was right!

But yeah, I wasn’t against the idea of her being redeemed. And I don’t mean “redeemed” as in “all is forgiven and she’s just a good guy now,” but more like a Darth Vader, “the things she did were inexcusable and she would never be able to right all her wrongs but she goes out on one good act to show that there was still good in her deep down and she at least had the potential to change.”

I know a lot of people don’t like the whole, “redemption=death” thing, which I understand, but I personally never had a problem with it.

Ok, so why didn’t Honerva’s redemption work? Well there are a few reasons but the one that baffles me the most is that, instead of trying to make her more sympathetic, season 8 seemed to go out of its way to show her being more evil and vile than ever.

And because I have nothing better to do, I’m gonna go through Honerva’s story in VLD and explain what I would change to make her redemption more believable.

(Keep in mind I am not a writer, this is just me ranting about my favorite character and how I personally would’ve written her.)

1. Realizing she’s Altean

I always thought it’s was weird that when Allura said “you’re...Altean!?” In the S2 finale, Haggar didn’t seem to react at all, she just kept attacking. It’s as if she didn’t care or already knew, which doesn’t make sense considering in the S3 finale and S8E2 it’s established that Haggar has no memory of who she was before she died. And in S4E3 she seems shocked by her Altean face (which also doesn’t make sense because her blue skin isn’t camouflage that’s just how she looks after the rift) so it seems like she didn’t know.

Wouldn’t it have made more sence if after Allura said “you’re...Altean!?” Honerva looked confused/shocked? If she became defensive and said Allura was lying/trying to insult her? There’s def anti-Altean propaganda in the empire so it would be considered an insult.

After that she starts questioning Zarkon. And when she looks into his mind, it’s out of genuine curiosity and desire to know the truth, not because, “the empire needs him” or whatever that meant.

And isn’t it a bit odd that she doesn’t seem betrayed at all when she finds out Zarkon has been keeping all this from her? She’s just like, “oh, you’re my husband? Cool.” Wtf???

2. Her past relationship with Zarkon

Okay, I love Zonerva, but if we’re being honest, Zarkon was not the best husband. He enabled the shit out of Honerva, even when it was obvious that the rift was doing serious damage to her physical and mental health. To me, it seems like Zarkon was so blinded by the power the rift gave him that he didn’t realize/ignored the negative effect it was having on Honerva. In the same way he downplayed the negative impact the rift had on the planet.

I think that should’ve been explored more. Maybe Honerva notices that she’s been acting differently and is worried somethings wrong (think S5 Kuron). And Honerva tries to tell Zarkon that she feels strange and Zarkon just brushes it off.

And later, when Alfor visits Diaibazaal years later. Things are pretty much the same except when we sees Honerva, she is very obviously pregnant and Alfor’s there when Honerva falls and goes into labor (instead of a random quintessence seizure). Alfor and many Galran doctors try their best to save her and the baby but she dies in childbirth.

Zarkon goes ballistic. He’s yelling, throwing doctors across the room, and Alfor turns to the doctor holding Lotor and tells them to get the baby to safely, fearing Zarkon will take his grief out on the baby.

Zarkon turns on Alfor, blaming him for Honerva’s death and accusing him of letting her die so that he could get his way and close the rift. He lunges Alfor and roars at him to leave.

He spends the rest of the night grieving at Honerva’s bedside, when Kova jumps on the bed and starts gnawing on her finger trying to wake her up. This is what gives him the idea to bring her back with quintessence.

3. Her current relationship with Zarkon

I think it’s pretty safe to say that they’re relationship didn’t get better after the war began. Zarkon hid her identity and her child from her for 10,000 years and essentially used her as a tool of war. It’s pretty fucked up.

I know it’s pretty well established that Zarkon treats Haggar with more respect than his other underlings, but I feel like it would be interesting to see that change overtime. We see that after Voltron comes back, Zarkon becomes very obsessed with Voltron/Black, and he and Haggar start disagreeing more and more.

Remember the moment where one of Haggar’s druids told Zarkon Haggar said he needed to rest and Zarkon hit them with his bayard and told them, “remember who your master is”? What if, instead of a random druid, it was Haggar who he hit?

I feel like that would be a good way to show Haggar and the audience just how much Zarkon’s obsession with Voltron is affecting him, and make the audience feel a tiny bit bad for her.

Then later in season 4, when Zarkon wakes up from his coma and finds out Haggar brought Lotor back to take his place he gets pissed. He puts a price on Lotor’s head and has Haggar arrested for treason. She steals a ship, escapes, and later on meets up with Lotor’s generals.

Her and Zarkon are officially broken up and her quest to reclaim her identity and get her son back begins.

4. Oriande

I never liked the concept of chosen/sacred Alteans. The idea that some Alteans are just born more powerful than others just feels iffy. My idea of Oriande is that it’s an Altean holly land, any Altean can enter it just depends on whether or not you can pass the White Lion’s trial. Passing the trial proves that your intentions are pure and and the White Lion will bless you with power.

I didn’t like how Honerva seemed to force her way into Oriande, I think it would be more effective if she had gone through normally because, at this point, her intentions were pure. She was going there to purge herself of the dark magic corrupting her and reclaim her memories so she could go get her son back.

I also like the idea that Oriande is a sorta link to the Altean after life, and you can speak with people you’ve lost. Allura gets to speak with Alfor, and Honerva speaks with her mother.

You could also have her be confronted by the spirits of the Alteans she helped destroy. Have the weight of her past actions bear down on her. An important part of any redemption arc is acknowledging the terrible shit you’ve done in the past, and that was severely lacking in Honerva’s arc.

Another interesting thing you could do is have Honerva talk to her younger self. The one that died 10,000 years ago. This kinda thing actually happened in 80s Voltron, young Haggar appearing in Haggar’s head trying to convince her to be good again.

5. Her relationship with Lotor

Now this is where the redemption arc really falls apart. I forget who, but one of the writers said after S5 that Haggar/Honerva was motivated purely by love for her son, but man did they do a bad job of showing that.

And it would’ve been so easy to fix that problem, just have her not be horrible to him. Have them have actual civil conversations, have her protect and defend him. Don’t have her reject him as a fucking baby!

Imagine if, after Zarkon destroys Lotor’s planet, instead of immediately deciding to

exile him, Zarkon says that this is the final straw and he’s going to have Lotor executed. But Haggar speaks up to defend Him. There’s actually a scene in DOTU where Zarkon tries to kill Lotor and Haggar gets on her knees and begs for him to be spared. (Though the scene was mostly played for laughs.)

she asks for mercy and justifies it by saying it would be unwise to kill his only heir. It’s a weak argument, Lotor’s a half breed and couldn’t realistically take the throne, but Zarkon does concede, he still loves her after all, and has Lotor exiled.

And Haggar isn’t spying on him because she doesn’t trust him, but because she’s concerned for him. When Lotor confronts Haggar about sending her cronies after him, she says she knows he’s hiding something. Lotor asks if she’s threatening him, thinking she’s going to rat him out, but she says no, she’s not threatening him, she’s just trying to warn him against doing anything stupid because, with Zarkon seemingly on his death bed, the empire needs Lotor’s leadership.

At this point in the story, Haggar is questioning her loyalty to Zarkon, so I feel like it would make sense for her to be silently supporting Lotor from the shadows.

Then at the Kral Zera in season 5, It was weird to me how she was helping Lotor through Kuron while also telling him he couldn’t be emperor and trying to put Sendak on the throne. I feel like it would’ve made more sense for Sendak to just show up on his own without Haggar.

Haggar wouldn’t even be at the Kral Zera, she would just watch through Kuron.

And then we get to S6 when she actually reveals to Lotor that she’s his mom. This scene was just so poorly done. She never actually apologizes to him, she’s just like “yeah I forgot you were my kid and I never loved you, but were cool now right?” I remember when I saw S8E2 and it shows her after Lotor rejects her and she looks like she’s about to cry, I was just thinking, “this would be very emotional and sad IF she had actually apologized and made it clear that she genuinely loved him.” But she didn’t and I don’t know why!

And then we get to season 8, and of course everything in S8 is bad but Honerva’s story is particularly bad. She’s supposed to be motivated by love for Lotor yet she doesn’t act like she actually cares about him at all.

She manipulates his corpse and when she sees his gross melted body, she doesn’t even react that much. When a mother sees her child’s mutilated corpse, how do you think she reacts? Screaming? Crying?? Hurling??? But no. She’s just like, “...”

And then when she goes to the alternate reality and meets baby Lotor and he rejects her, her reaction isn’t disappointment or sadness, it’s anger and entitlement. She immediately decides, “ok, fuck this kid. Let’s destroy this reality.”

It just doesn’t make sense! This is the season you’re trying to REDEEM her! Why are you going out of your way to make her so vile?

6. Her S7-S8 plan

(Keep in mind I haven’t watched S7/S8 since they came out and barely even watched S8 to begin with, so I don’t remember some things and I can’t be bothered to rewatch them.)

Okay, starting with S7, she’s not in this season at all but in “The Ruins” the druid dude says that her final order was to hunt and destroy the Blade of Marmora. I guess it makes a certain amount of sense because she saw that it was Keith who brought Lotor’s actions to light, but that whole plot was really pointless in my opinion. (Was anybody really hoping for a rematch between Keith and that one random druid?)

If you want us to forgive Honerva for her crimes, you really shouldn’t keep adding more unnecessary crimes. It’s established that there were a lot of Galra war lords vying for power and pirates looking for money, just have it be that Kolivan got kidnapped by one of them.

Then you have her season 8 plan and I’m gonna be real with y’all, I have no idea how to fix this mess.

I feel like the basics of her plan could work. She tries to get Lotor and Sincline out of the rift but when she gets him he’s a melted corpse so the plan then becomes to use sincline to go to another reality to find a living Lotor, but opening all these rifts causes problems and the paladins have to stop her.

But all the shit with manipulating the colony Alteans, killing the White Lion, desecrating Oriande, and destroying Olkarion and entire realities, it was all so unnecessary.

Personally I would cut the colony Alteans from the story all together, there are other ways for Lotor to betray the team. It was a lazy way of making Lotor 100% evil and having Honerva manipulate them is unnecessarily cruel, especially in the season you’re trying to redeem her.

Here’s a very basic outline of how I would do this plot.

If we’re going by season 8’s logic that she needs a sacrifice to bring back Sincline, I would’ve had the Galra she killed at the Kral Zera be the sacrifice, not the White Lion. She stands on the pyramid and talks about how the empire stole her life from her and she wants revenge as she absorbs their quintessence into herself and then uses that to bring back Sincline.

Then when she finds Lotor dead she takes Sincline and uses it to go to another reality where she can be with her family.

The danger comes when she opens rifts to the other realities and rift creatures start coming out and causing damage. The paladins fight them and follow her into the rift to stop whatever evil plan she may have. Because the paladins don’t know that Haggar is now Honerva and all this is just to get Lotor back. They think this is all some plan for multiverse domination or some shit.

Meanwhile Honerva has just been rejected by little Lotor and seeing Voltron show up pushes her over the edge and they fight.

But when they find out the real reason she’s doing all this they start trying to appeal to her and convince her to give up and close the rift peacefully. And similarly to how the paladins had to sacrifice the castle to close the rifts created by the fight with Lotor, Honerva has to sacrifice herself to close the rifts.

In the end, I feel like a Honerva redemption arc could’ve worked if the writers were actually competent and actually made an effort to have her be sympathetic, but In canon, her reasoning, “If I can’t indulge in the simple joys of life, why should anybody else?” just doesn’t cut it.

It’s disappointing. VLD had so much potential. I’m thinking of just rewriting the entire series from the beginning. Hopefully putting all my thoughts out into the universe will help me move on.

[amuelia]

How do you think Roose will meet his demise? Or will he survive? What's your best Roose end game predictions?

Thank you for the question! This will be a long post under the readmore, going into my thoughts on the show ending and exploring what the books may have set up in regards to themes and characterization, as well as a bit of general analysis of Roose' story arc in a Dance with Dragons (and some speculation about Ramsay as well).

If you click on the readmore i will have divided the post into sections with bolded Headers, if you want to only read my specific endgame ideas you can skip ahead to the "His Endgame?" section.

In The Show

The show had him get killed by Ramsay in s6, which informs a lot of the fandom speculation about this storyline.

I am not a fan of the show's scenario as it was both similar to tywin and tyrion as well as a mirror of robb's death; it would also be offscreen in the books since neither of the characters are PoVs and Ramsay would need to do the act in secret. This would ultimately undercut Roose' role and impact, being a death scene that is not very unique and also isn't shown to the reader directly. Since no PoV is even in Winterfell currently, we would just hear of it from afar and not witness the consequences.

The show also has a different dynamic in the Bolton storyline, emphasizing Ramsay as the "main character" of this arc, and elevating him to the main villain for s5-6 to fill Joffrey's shoes as an evil character played by a very charismatic actor. Ramsay's show writing is informed by the needs of a TV setting that wants shocking moments and capitalizes on "fan favourite" actors; his rising importance in the show thus is not necessarily an indicator of his book importance. The show was also missing many central characters like the northern lords and the Frey men in Winterfell.

The show had a tendency to kill off characters early when they wanted to cull storylines or had no plans to adapt more of the character's story (like Stannis, Barristan, possibly the Tyrells...); In Mance Rayder we have the most obvious example, where they killed him off for real in a scene that in the book was a misdirection. We also have characters like Jorah where it appears the showrunners had their own choice of how they want his storyline to end, even if Grrm has his own ending in mind.

"For a long time we wanted Ser Jorah to be there at The Wall in the end," writer Dave Hill says. "The three coming out of the tunnel would be Jon and Jorah and Tormund. But [...] Jorah should have the noble death he craves defending the woman he loves." - Dave Hill for Entertainment Weekly

So a death in the show does not need to be an indicator that the books will feature an equivalent scene, even if it gives a hint as to what may happen. By s5 the show has become its own beast, and the butterfly effects from radical changes they made as well as the different characterizations results in the show having to cater to its own needs in many cases when it gets to resolving a plotline.

"We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents." - Benioff and Weiss for the s5 DVD commentary, on Indira Varma's casting as Ellaria

In The Books

(Since this post was getting out of hand in length a lot of these arguments are a little shortened/not as in-depth as i'd like! Feel free to inquire more via ask if something is unclear or you disagree)

In the books i find it hard to make a concrete guess as to how it will end. Occam's razor would be to assume the show sort of got it right and that it will vaguely end the same, which could very well happen and i will not discount the possibility; Ramsay is cruel, desires the Dreadfort rule, and is a suspected kinslayer and has no qualms to commit immoral violence.

"Ramsay killed [his brother]. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison." - Reek III, aDwD

Reek saw the way Ramsay's mouth twisted, the spittle glistening between his lips. He feared he might leap the table with his dagger in his hand [to attack his father]. - Reek III, aDwD

Arguments against this or for a different endgame come down to interpretations of the themes in the story arc and opinions on dramatic structure/grrm's writing, and are thus very subjective.

The way the story currently is going, Ramsay killing Roose treats Roose almost as a plot device; his death brings no change or development to Ramsay's character as we already know his motivations and cruelty align with such an act, and we can assume that he would feel no remorse about it either. The results of such a scene would be firmly on a story level, as it brings political changes and moves the plot along into a specific direction. Roose himself cannot have any relevant character development about it as he does not have a PoV and we would not be able to witness his reaction from the outside.

“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” - William Faulkner, often quoted by Grrm

Further, killing his father is very difficult to pull off in secret (Roose is frequently described as very cautious, and employs many guardsmen). And even if Ramsay pulls it off (people often interpret Ramsay as Roose' blind spot, assuming he might be caught by surprise, not expecting Ramsay would bite the hand that feeds him), Roose is the one that holds his entire alliance together; The Freys would be alienated by Ramsay who would antagonize Walda and her son as his rivals, The Ryswell bloc appears to dislike Ramsay (especially Barbrey), and the other northmen are implied to not even like Roose himself. Killing Roose would quickly combust the entire northern faction, and hinder Ramsay's further plans (another reason why I am not convinced of a book version of the "Battle of Bastards"). Though this might of course, if we look at it from the other side, be grrm's plan to quickly dissolve this plot and move the northern story forwards.

"Ramsay will kill [Walda's children], of course. [...] [She] will grieve to see them die, though." - Reek III, aDwD

"How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots." - Reek III, aDwD

"Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. Even here in Barrowton the crows are circling, waiting to feast upon our flesh. The Cerwyns and the Tallharts are not to be relied on, my fat friend Lord Wyman plots betrayal, and Whoresbane … the Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning. Ramsay should fear them all, as I do." - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' death at Ramsay's hand also removes him thematically from the Red Wedding, as we can assume such a death might have happened regardless of his participation in the event (seeing as Ramsay is getting provoked by Roose constantly in normal dialogue, and has a general violent disposition). Roose already took Ramsay in before aGoT started, and married Walda very early in the war, which is already most of the buildup that the show's scenario had. It also has little to do with the The North Remembers plot except set dressing, since the northmen are presumably neither collaborating with/egging on Ramsay nor would they appreciate the development.

Themes: Ned Stark and the rule over the North

Roose is treated as a foil to Eddard; They are often contrasted in morals and ruling styles, while also having many superficial similarities that further connect them (they are seen as cold by people, grey eyed, patriarchs of rivalling northern houses, etc...).

Pale as morning mist, his eyes concealed more than they told. Jaime misliked those eyes. They reminded him of the day at King's Landing when Ned Stark had found him seated on the Iron Throne. - Jaime IV, aSoS

They both have a "bastard son" that they handle very differently; Roose treating Ramsay in the way that is seen as common in their society. Ramsay and Jon as a comparison are meant to show that Catelyn had a reason to see a bastard as a threat (since Domeric was antagonized by his bastard brother), but also shows that her suggested plan for Jon would not have stopped any danger either (as Ramsay being raised away from the castle didn't help).

And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. - Catelyn II, aGoT

"Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." - Reek III, aDwD

It appears to me that Roose' story functions in some ways as an inversion to Ned. He makes an attempt to grab a power he was not destined to (becoming warden of the north), where Ned did not want the responsiblity thrust upon him ("It was all meant for Brandon. [...] I never asked for this cup to pass to me." - Cat II, aGoT). Where Ned rules successfully and his northmen honor his legacy ("What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl." - The Turncloak, aDwD), the Boltons are largely hated and there are several plots conspiring against them ("Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die." - The King's Prize, aDwD).

It seems possible to me that in terms of their family and legacy, Roose might also live through an inverted version of Ned's story; where Ned died first, leaving his family behind, Roose already lived to see the death of his wives and trueborn heir, and might thus also live to see Ramsay's death. Ned leaves behind well raised children and a North who still respects his name, and even though he dies it will presumably all be "in good hands" in the end (in broad strokes, obviously this is all much more morally complex). Roose however built up a bad and toxic legacy, and also built his way of life around evading consequences; it makes sense to me that he would be forced by the story to finally endure all the consequences of his actions and witness the fall of his house firsthand. After all we already have Tywin who fulfils the purpose of dying before his children while his legacy falls to ruins, and a Feast for Crows explores this aspect thoroughly.

Roose' arc in A Dance With Dragons

The story repeatedly builds up the situation unravelling around Roose, and him slowly losing a grip on it and becoming more stressed and anxious.

Reek wondered if Roose Bolton ever cried. If so, do the tears feel cold upon his cheeks? - Reek II, aDwD

Roose Bolton said nothing at all. But Theon Greyjoy saw a look in his pale eyes that he had never seen before—an uneasiness, even a hint of fear. [...] That night the new stable collapsed beneath the weight of the snow that had buried it. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

Lady Walda gave a shriek and clutched at her lord husband's arm. "Stop," Roose Bolton shouted. "Stop this madness." His own men rushed forward as the Manderlys vaulted over the benches to get at the Freys. - Theon I, aDwD

It also directly presents him as a parallel to Theon's rule in aCoK, who similarly experienced a very unpopular rule and his subjects slowly turning against him. Presumably, the point of this comparison will not just be "Ramsay comes in at the end and unexpectedly whacks them on the head". Both Theon and Roose invited Ramsay into their lives, giving him more power than he deserves, and causing Ramsay to make choices that increasingly alienate others from them (the death of the miller's boys for example has repercussions for both Theon and Roose). Grrm is likely steering this towards a difference in how they will deal with this situation.

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again." - The elder Bolton sighed. "Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak's work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known?" - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' arc is deeply connected to the relations he shares to the other northern lords, which has been heavily impacted by the Red Wedding. It stands to reason that they are going to be an important part of his downfall, and we see many hints of them plotting to betray him.

The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home." - Davos IV, aDwD

Themes: Stannis and kinslaying

The books set up Roose and Stannis as foils as well; Both lack charisma and have trouble winnning the people's support, Stannis and Roose both parallel and contrast Ned, Stannis appears as a "lesser Robert" where Roose is a "lesser Ned", Stannis represents the fire where Roose represents the ice, both struggle over dominion in a land that doesnt particularly want either of them, etc... What i find interesting is how they are contrasted over kinslaying:

"Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach." - Davos II, aCoK

"I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes." [...] "Now [Domeric's] bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" - Reek III, aCoK

Stannis is set up as someone who is very thorough and strict in following his own code and his "duty", even if he does not like what it forces him to do.

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady." - Davos IV, aSoS

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." - Jon I, aCoK

Roose however is frequently characterized as someone who tries to get as much as he can while avoiding negative consequences, and who does not have a consistent moral code and instead bends rules to his benefit to be the most comfortable to him.

It is often theorized that Stannis will end up burning his daughter Shireen; the Ramsay issue might then serve to contrast the two men. If Grrm intends it to be compared by the reader, I can see it going two ways: Either Roose will be forced to finally act in a drastic way after avoiding his responsibility in regards to Ramsay and he will be forced to get rid of his son, making him break the only moral hurdle he has presented adhering to during the story (though analyzing his character, the kinslaying taboo is probably less a sign of moral fortitude and more him using the guise of morals to explain a selfish motivation). Or he might not act against Ramsay and suffer the consequences, presenting an interesting moral situation where some readers might consider his action "better" or more relatable than Stannis', breaking up the otherwise very black and white moral comparison between the two men. It serves as an interesting conflict of the morality of kinslaying compared to what readers might see as a moral obligation of getting rid of a monster such as Ramsay; contrasting Shireen whose death would not be seen as worth it by most. Ramsay as a bastard (who was almost killed at birth if he hadnt been able to prove his paternity) also makes for an interesting verbal parallel with the bastard Edric Storm, and might be used for a look at the utilitarian principle of killing a child (baby ramsay/edric) to save countless people from suffering that underpinned Edric's story.

"As Faulkner says, all of us have the capacity in us for great good and for great evil, for love but also for hate. I wanted to write those kinds of complex character in a fantasy, and not just have all the good people get together to fight the bad guy." - Grrm

"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?" - Eddard VIII, aGoT

"If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" - "Everything," said Davos, softly. - Davos V, aSoS

However Grrm decides to present these conflicts or which actions the characters will take in the end, it will result in interesting discussion and analysis for the readers.

His Endgame?

Looking at the trends of the past books, it is probably going to be hard to predict any specific outcome; every book introduces new characters and plot elements that were impossible to predict from the last book even if their thematic importance or setup was aptly foreshadowed.

Roose has a lot of plot importance and characterization that has, in my opinion, not yet been properly resolved in a way that would be unique and poignant to the specific purpose his character appears to fulfil. However I also have a bias in that i did not like the show's writing of that scene which makes me averse to see a version of it in the books, and i really like Roose as a character and want to see him have more scenes in the next book(s). This leads me to discount plot speculation that cuts his character arc short offscreen early. Roose is only a side character; however, i have trust in grrm's writing abilities and that he would give him a proper sendoff that feels satisfying to a fan of the character.

"…even the [characters] who are complete bastards, nasty, twisted, deeply flawed human beings with serious psychological problems… When I get inside their skin and look out through their eyes, I have to feel a certain — if not sympathy, certainly empathy for them. I have to try to perceive the world as they do, and that creates a certain amount of affection." — George Martin

Considering my earlier analyis, there is a case to be made for Roose killing Ramsay; however it appears grrm might have a different endgame in mind for Ramsay, foreshadowed in Chett's prologue:

There'd be no lord's life for the leechman's son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns. Only a wildling's sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. The snow's taken it all from me . . . the bloody snow . . . - Chett, aSoS

I tend to think something might happen to Roose/the Bolton bloc later in the book that would cause Ramsay to attempt to flee the scene again like he did back in aCoK fleeing Rodrik's justice; perhaps Ramsay is sent out to battle but then flees it like a coward, or he sees his cause as lost. This time, the fleeing and potentially disguised Ramsay would not make it out to safety though, and get killed without being recognized as Ramsay, dying forgotten. This would serve as dramatic irony since Ramsay so strongly desired to be recognized and respected as a Lord of Bolton, without being too on the nose.

As for Roose, i could see him getting captured and somehow brought to justice (either when someone takes Winterfell or in some sort of battle). I see it unlikely that he will be backstabbed like Robb was, because it seems very "eye for an eye" and ultimately doesn't teach much of a lesson except "he had it coming"; But the various people conspiring against him could lead to his capture by betraying him (giving a payoff to the northern conspiracies and the red wedding). I would find a scene of him standing trial interesting since i believe we didn't have one of these for a true non-pov villain yet, and it would be an interesting confrontation that he cannot escape from (he also loves to talk so it would be a good read to see him make a case for himself).

I assume Roose will be out of the picture when the Other plot finally properly kicks into gear (whether dead or "in prison"). With Stannis as a false Azor Ahai and Roose as a false Other (with his pale, cold features), their struggle in the north seems to be a representation of the false "Game of Thrones" that distracts people from the "real threat" of the Others.

As always this is just my opinion, and it could all go very differently in the books! There could always be something that completely uproots my analysis and goes into a direction i did not expect from the material we had; But i have fate that Grrm as a writer will deliver and give me something i can be satisfied with.

[scrawnytreedemon]

Can’t sleep, mind going precisely 56 miles an hour, so I think I’ll finally get around to writing this.

Couples days back, I went ahead and finally psyched myself up to do the Zant bossfight.

Because I’d picked up where I’d left off yesterday, which was just before the boss room, obviously I was taken back to the beginning of the area. This gave the whole ordeal a trek, if a short one, what with the Palace of Twilight’s laughable length, and me more time to think.

I didn’t want to do this.

It sounds stupid, but I really didn’t want to do this. I’d cried the day before trying to psych myself up and failing, and I’d cried then, before the boss door, stalling by sweeping away the crystal-fog as best I could-- A meagre attempt at housekeeping, and a futile one. Of course I couldn’t. This isn’t that sort of game. This isn’t a game for failed attempts at kindness, at least trying to clean this awful, awful place for an awful, awful man going through awful, awful things. I was supposed to be a hero.

Heroes don’t make beds.

They don’t wash dishes, or hang laundry, or hold a rival’s hand,

They kill.

The trek didn’t stop past the door, either.

We still had to walk up the stairs. To the throne.

To him.

And I was there, laugh-crying, wishing I didn’t have to. That I could skip this pathetic ordeal.

I tried to turn around and leave.

Despite it only looking like a larger one of the many, many doors we’ve passed through this awful, nonsensical, poorly-designed excuse for a palace that no one could ever live in, it didn’t budge. There wasn’t any turning back. I had to go forward, because this is an action game, and violence is key.

The game takes the reigns. Link walks up to the throne, sword drawn, despite my deliberate decision to sheathe it. The narrative begins again. Midna sneers, and throws a taunt at him.

Zant sits, and smiles. Smiles like he thinks he still has some form of control, or knows full well he’s lost it.

You know, when I was working through the Palace of Twilight, I’d come to the realisation that... Zant locked himself in the throneroom. From the outside. Logistically, despite the good laugh I had over this guy locking himself in from the fucking outside, where his opponents can grab the key, he could get out easily-- teleportation and all. But even that aside, it still spoke to a level of hasty panic, that he would even keep the key outside, behind a waterfall of yet more shitty fog-crytals in the hopes that would deter them. Deter us.

How long had the guy been here, alone in that room?

We all know what happens next. Despite this being my first playthrough, I’ve probably seen this cutscene a dozen times. Zant has what amounts to an overly-dramatised autistic meltdown expositing himself and his motivations. That he was upset and felt like everything he’d worked for had been taken away from him. That he was angry, angry and fed up of being relegated to a half-existence. Midna retorts, Zant wails some more.

What gets me is that, when Ganondorf visits him, engulfs him in this flaming ball of fucked-magical-fuckery, he just. Stares. He doesn’t say anything, doesn’t do anything. Ganondorf speaks as though he’s already decided that, yes, you will do, we will make a pact and rule Everything together; I will live on through you.

Did Zant even agree to this?

I think, subconsciously or not, he accepted it, but it begs the question of whether or not Zant was capable enough to partake in it.

Whatever the answer, he’s clearly not capable enough to partake in this. This fight.

It’s laughable, that I’m expected to find victory in this.

The fight was a fucking slog, 90% of the time. Some of these boss-battles I hadn’t played in nearly two years thanks to the impromptu hiatuses I’m so fond of taking, so I didn’t know what the fuck I was meant to be doing half the time-- And when I did, it lagged to shit everytime this poor bastard fired projectiles, because I was playing on the gamepad, because why on earth would I play this on the goddamn TV? It was a sad, pitiful encounter that I had to laugh my way through and also mumble “what the fuck“ on several occasions because I guess somebody at Nintendo ate cheese before bed and the dev team were so desperate to patch something together for this guy’s sudden crisis that they threw it in-- I’m obviously having a good laugh, but What The Fuck.

I knock the guy down in the last phase of the battle, the only one where he isn’t mimicking something else and dizzies himself spinning like a hyperactive child, and the game takes the reigns again. Midna prepares her hair. I look away-- I’ve seen it before, many times before, and it’s cartoonishly grotesque for a game that relies heavily on somber semi-realism. Midna has her own crisis-- And yeah, yeah bossbabe, I feel it.

It cuts back, and there’s a Heart Container on the guy’s throne.

I.

I killed a guy, and now I’m collecting his lifeforce. I stormed into the bunged-up attempt of a fortress conjured up as a last defense by a man who’s fallen head-first into insanity, tore through any meagre security measure like butter, murder the guy when he’s having an episode, he dies a fucked up death, and then I collect his lifeforce.

Is that fucked up or what?

For all of Zelda’s endless violence, rarely do you actually kill “people.“ It’s the kind of stuff reserved for the end, for Ganondorf, or some other corrupted nigh-demigod on the brink of losing their humanity, or never having possessed it.

We kill Zant.

Zant barely puts up a fight, and we kill him. Zant gets summoned from the netherworld by Ganondorf in Hyrule Warriors; we put him there in the first place.

If we were to view this from a literal, like this shit actually happened and these characters are to be held accountable standpoint, then what we did was justified-- If not wholly, then mostly. Zant got power-hungry, committed what amounts to a bio-terroristic coup on the government, disfigured his rival, a woman notorious for her beauty, then proceeded to attempt the same thing with Hyrule, leading to the indirect death of at least the people who got transfigured into Shadow-Beasts in Kakariko, and attacks you first, then yeah, no biggie?

But I’ll be fucking real with you chief, I don’t find it... I don’t know, persuasive? Effective? Compelling, would be the best word, to think of it that way?

What Zant is, is a narrative tool. One that was set up to be this big, bad interloper who you need to Take Down and Save Everything, as per usual Zelda format. The justification for why we should hate him, if I’m going to be honest, feels contrived, most of the time. He does some bad thing off-screen, Midna gets pissed, Midna and everyone within a 12-mile radius explains why we should be pissed in a way that often feels borderline developer-hand-y-- And that’s. Well that’s how Zelda usually is.

It’s justification to commit violence.

--To be clear, I don’t say this in a political sense. I mean it in the very literal “hit/kill a guy“ sense. And in all honesty, that’s kinda inherent to the ethos of action games. We enjoy catharsis-- We enjoy taking down big things, it’s satisfying! I’ve played a little Hyrule Warriors-- Loved the feel of it. Violence is inherent to even the most benign of action games, and it is what it is.

Where it falls short for me, is that with Zant, I don’t feel like I’m taking down some great foe that I should justifiably hate.

I feel like I’m a clearly more equipped person breaking into a room, and bludgeoning a mentally ill person.

I’m autistic. I may slot in easier to NT society than most, but I am autistic, and it makes me deeply uncomfortable to see something I’ve fucking gone through be used carelessly as flavour for a prelude to violence. I have meltdowns. They’re relatively rare, and mostly in my room, alone, but I’ve also experienced one out in public. It was only sobbing, but there’s a special kind of horror, of humilation in knowing other people, strangers, family, what have you, are seeing it, and all you can think is how much you failed.

I can’t fully articulate why I cried so much during this, quite frankly, menial ordeal. I’m half-embarrassed to even talk about it-- Because then that means caring too much, and I can’t care too much over a poorly-justified character that wasn’t even intended to be sympathised with and that most of the fandom laughs at. And I can’t say I blame them.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the ever-present pity; some strange, childish commiseration I’d indulged in ever since I was six and cooing over Bowser and how awful everything was for him, that despite my continuous efforts, I can’t ever seem to explain.

I didn’t like the Zant fight. It felt empty,

And all did was sweep cobwebs and try to turn back.

[dontbipanicjonsa]

Did I just create another Tumblr account so I could write one (1) meta about GoT years after the show has ended? Yes. Yes, I did.

I just saw episode 7x04 and first of all, I would like to say a most heartfelt-

Yikes.

Yea no the Field of Fire scene is....many things, but a scene of triumph it is not. I'm going to say a lot of things now, all of which have already been said before I'm sure but oh well-

It's interesting that the show decided to have a scene humanising the Lannister army (especially Dickon Tarly) right before the invasion comes (I'm calling it an invasion coz that's what it is). Note that Dickon has appeared before, in season 6 and there he had next to no lines.

The first thing that strikes me about the Dothraki army approaching is that, yes, it is an invasion.

It comes out of seemingly nowhere. The Lannister army is caught completely unprepared, smack in the middle of a (morbidly) playful scene. The Dothraki look like invaders (because they are). They look terrifying and foreign (no one @ me about this- tell me if you won't shit your pants and wish they'd never crossed that damn sea if you had a Dothraki horde running at you full tilt). The Lannister army is shown literally quivering, and yet they stand their ground and fight bravely. We are meant to admire their grit.

Next, the scene very very clearly depicts the horrors of being burnt alive (for good reason- people watching the show seem to forget). This is shown repeatedly. The wagons are burning and the horses are running, trying to escape the fire. Soldiers are crawling into the water. Soldiers ripping off their helmets, their newly acquired burns visible.

I could go on, but the point is that the scene is filmed like a massacre, not a battle. The Lannister army never stood a chance. They put up the best fight they could, but they are essentially being butchered with their pants down. Is that meant to make me side with Dany? Yell in victory? Be like "Fuck yea, burn those Lannister fuckers, khaleesi". Uh

No.

Through it all, Danaerys and for most of the part, the Dothraki have the higher ground (coz dragons and horses). It creates an image, a story that is both familiar and unfamiliar. Dany setting her dragons and her Dothraki on people isn't new, but this is the first time we have sympathy for the people being burnt. The image created makes me think of...off the top of head? Uhhh bullies, strong crushing the weak, corporation (:/), murdered puppies, etc.

What did GMMR say? The villian is the hero of the other side? Hmm....

Danaerys is seemingly untouchable in this scene, but rather than making us feel awe, or making us feel powerful, triumphant, victorious whatever (through her)....we only feel dread, and a mounting horror.

Basically what I'm trying to find the right words to say is-

It's very hard to watch that scene and say "Yeah, you go girl".

Very hard. I can't. My reaction was more like-

"wtf have you unleashed on this continent? As if they didn't have enough shit to deal with already. You're burning the food?????? Gtfo this continent and take your lizards with you, invader".

Can you tell I really fucking hate conquering invaders? I do. The Targs and I do not get on.

On a seperate note, it's interesting to me that this is the same episode that has discourse about chosen kings/queens, why people follow Dany, and why Jon should bend the knee to her.

Let's examine-

Dany says the North chose Jon as their king because they believed he would do what's best for them, and since he himself believes that the North cannot beat the WW without Dany, he should let go of his pride (be a true king) and bend the knee, thus winning Dany's help in the fight against the WW. (Yes it wasn't exactly in those words but that's the crux of it, is it not?)

Now, the first thought that springs to mind is, what about her? This very argument can be turned against her. If she wants to be Queen of all seven kingdoms, and she believes Jon enough to promise to help him, should she not let go of her pride (be a true queen) and fight for the kingdom she wants to rule anyway? She is obviously somewhat shook by the cave paintings. The only concession I can give her here is that she doesn't have much reason to trust Jon here. It's a flimsy argument though- she does have reason to want the well-being of "her" kingdom. That's what monarchs do. That's what she expects Jon to do.

Still, I'm not entirely sure. The problem is that she's right. If his first priority is to protect his people, then giving up his crown should be a price that he's willing to pay. We can see Jon thinking about her words at the end of that scene, and I think that's because they struck a chord with him too.

I know that Jon does give up his crown to Dany sometime this season (I know the entire fucking story, I'm just watching it now for the first time for the first hand experience). So, can we say that Jon giving up his crown is his act of being a true king (someone who protects his people)? Yes, if his reason for bending the knee is to protect his people. Reasons matter. Context matters. Motivations matter. But we're not talking about that right now.

Let's look at the flip side. Would Dany give up her throne? This very same episode had Missandie talk poetic about Dany. It establishes that both Jon and Dany are monarchs chosen by their people. Jon is clearly skeptical of this. His questioning Missandie, and all his squinting (is the sun in his eyes or what????) all point to him not being sold on the Danaerys Experience.

I'm not sure how to articulate this...but Dany is a conquerer. The people who follow her (mostly) uncritically are either in love with her, or people like Missandie and Grey Worm, who were slaves that she freed. These people are not only subjects, and they do not have any authority of their own. They are followers. That is important. Danaerys collects and surrounds herself with followers. It's also important that almost right after Missandie gives a glowing review of Dany's greatness, we have a scene that is very clearly meant to shake our faith in her.

Or maybe I see this scene this way because I already despise the idea of a Targ Restoration? That's possible. I won't deny that I'm biased. I'll prefer anyone over Targs.

In conclusion, I would like to say that this is something to think about. Would Dany give up her crown for her people? I sincerely doubt it. I mean she prioritises Jon bending the knee over her helping people in the same conversation where she tells Jon he should prioritise helping people over.....not bending the knee. Then she burns food. Mind fucked.

Bless Missandie tho, she really believes what she's saying.

[mc-critical]

I really don’t understand the amount of people who apparently dislike Mihrimah for not giving Rüstem a chance/not having Rüstem grow on her. I don’t know entirely how I feel about Mihrimah as a character but I feel like if you were to dislike her that’d be a silly reason. It was a opportunistic marriage, one she never wanted and to a man she never loved. Not to mention he was also borderline pedophilic (when he said to her on her wedding night that he had been “waiting for this moment for years” when she was 17..okay) and then coercing her into consumating the marriage through the threat of suicide. Sure, the circumstances of Rüstem’s life were sad, but I don’t understand how that entails him being *entitled* to Mihrimah’s love or affection. And if anything I found Rüstem to be misogynistic and possibly even abusive, which likely made marriage to him all the worse. Mihrimah’s definitely not perfect or above criticism, but that doesn’t mean she owed any man love, sex or affection, royal borne woman or not.

I don't understand them, either. Because this is the last thing Mihrimah should be disliked for.

Rüstem is a very odious character with minimal redeeming qualities. His supposed love for Mihrimah is established disturbingly early on and while that may have fled over the audience's heads (it sure did fly over my head when I first watched the show!) because their marriage is a historical fact and as such, is automatically considered the normal course of things - the questionable pedophilic implications are definitely there and send off the alarming signs of utterly problematic behavior. Sure, he's done his duty by saving her after she fell off a horse and (little!) Mihrimah thanked him for it, but it is clearly seen in his eyes by the second episode he's on-screen that there's something more and something baffling when the girl is so young. And it only escalated from there.

Obviously, most of his fanbase ignores or flat out misses this aspect of his character, but I also find people that think that his attitude to Mihrimah is the only bad thing about Rüstem when I find most of his negative traits to be present outside of Mihrimah, but with her witnessing them. I feel the connection to Iskender Çelebi and the way he bacame the stable-man of the castle are his most important character establishing moments: they shine a light into his sneakiness and ability to play dirty, but also reveal his immediate prejudice against Ibrahim. The ambition, similar to Hürrem's, but not for the same reasons, is set up from the get-go. He's seemingly following Iskender, just like he comes to seemigly follow Hürrem, but he always forges his own path for his own gain. His alleged "loyalty" is the thing that Rüstem usually gets the most credit for, but while he begins to look like Hürrem's loyal companion that shall fulfill her every order, this whole facade is deconstructed and ultimately, totally broken apart in S04. His character establishing moments recontextualize all the decisions he makes in that season and show the true nature of his ambition: he followed Hürrem when she prevailed over everyone, he followed her when she seemingly gave him the world and all the desired power and when she and the one she wanted for the throne were put into a disadvantaged position and Selim got the upper hand, he ran straight for the opportunity, despite of him making an oath in front of the Quran not to do that. He turns out to be simply an opportunist hyena who works only for his own gain. Nothing more. Just like he saw the opportunity to get rid of the stable-man before him in the past, now he sees the opportunity to be on the winning side again with Selim. He doesn't care who is he in front of and who he promised what, as long as they're of no use to him, he bails. His "loyalty" immediately disappears from his positive traits, because it turns out he never had it in the first place. People praise him for his loyalty for Mihrimah, but that "loyalty" also lasted so long - when he found out that she wouldn't ever come to love him, he began to bang with Gracia Mendez, in conjunction with the betrayal of what Hürrem stood up for. Now, tell me, how can Mihrimah love such a guy? That was one of the only reasons she tolerated him and when even that was lost, how can she still keep her ties with him?

[His backstory is sad indeed, but the only thing it does is put his actions into perspective, not justify them or make him likeable somehow. Especially when what that "character lore dump" specifically explains is his refusal to tell Nigar where her daughter is - the backstory makes that action logical for his character, but it's still framed as nothing short of spiteful. That said, he still does have some soft sides and the arc with his brother is where I found him the most sympathetic - this is the time Rüstem actually showed vulnerability without false alarms or disguise and his brother was probably the only thing that was precious to him and stayed precious after all these years, consistently throughout his screentime. What helps even more, is the brother's role as a moral compass and the last bridge between the past/his loyalties and the future/the victories he would achieve through opportunism. That was the last gasp of what was left of his possible humanity and after his brother was killed, he let it go almost instantly, because... well, after he willingly chose his own life in the saray, he might as well continue to live it, right? Him saving a boy in S03 without any hesitation whatsoever, was also respectable. But these demonstrations of a softer side of his being are also taking place outside of Mihrimah, but with her not witnessing them altogether. And they do little in changing the general impression of Rüstem's character and his relationship with Mihrimah.]

We have to keep in mind that Mihrimah's whole S03 arc was finding purpose in her life and finding true love. She had many love stories throughout the series with different people, different personalities and different motives to try to make it work with them. No matter what they've went through together and despite of them all having the same outcomes due to different outside (and inside) factors, there is a reason she fell for these people in the first place. Okay, while for Bali Bey it was a bizarre, puppy, immature, childish love, for Taşlicalı something truly genuine began to flourish with all the glances, poems, dedication (Mahidevran succeeded to break them up, but it's not to be denied that Taşlicalı was very hard to convince and he was still thinking of her afterwards) and sweet words. She got a call for a new adventure with him. Bali Bey, on the other hand, was adored by her mostly for his handsomeness, I feel, but even when he tore all her dreams apart, he showed tact and respect. What I mean to say is, if Rüstem has qualities that are "worthy of Mihrimah", wouldn't she see them? Wouldn't she see all these virtues? Because all she sees before the marriage are his words that she will marry him, that she will be his and that's it. The best she sees of him is his good manners when he asks her whether she wants something or stuff, but he could do that with everyone else, knowing his post, and the previous implications make even that alone head scratching. Why would she want a man like that? I agree with all your points. Are you, people, denying Mihrimah her feelings? She realized the potential advantages of this marriage and agreed to do it regardless, why does she have to come to love him when he truly gives her no real reasons to, even before she married him?

I believe Rüstem cares about Mihrimah, albeit in his own distorted, toxic way, but in reality, he didn't do her any good. His relationship with Mihrimah revels in manipulation and facades for her to keep, because she has to "protect" her brothers. Rüstem never actually took account of her own feelings or opinions on matters, especially when what she proposed wasn't an opportunistic enough option for him to afford. Their interactions are mostly focused on the survival of the game and the actions that have to be taken to achieve that. He often puts an unbelievable amount of pressure on her, which while given because of the system they live in, hurt more than it helped. Their relationship was never allowed to flourish in a healthy manner and Mihrimah could never be truly herself in it, not even for a moment. The castle she lived in, her home, was merely full of tension every day, not a source of comfort. His stoic, serious cunning contrasts with her own spirit. Not to mention that it always seemed he considered his marriage to Mihrimah as a price, a goal he had finally achieved and I doubt that she wasn't aware of it to some extent. The root of the marriage is only political opportunism and no matter how hard you try, you simply cannot force a person to love someone they're with only out of sheer necessity, only for a purpose for "the greater good". Rüstem never did anything to earn Mihrimah's love and she shouldn't be hated for not loving him. This is what MC Rüstem is as a character, whether we like it or not, and he isn't a healthy person for Mihrimah. If she couldn't warm up to him when she fully got to know him in their alone time, that means something is missing. That means he just isn't for her and. that's. OKAY.

But there may be reasons why some people could dislike Mihrimah because of it. I offer my experience with cases I've encountered in forums: these people are usually very invested in Hürrem's character to the point they view everything she does as excusable, at the least, so of course they would want to justify Hürrem marrying Mihrimah to Rüstem. But plainly selfish political gain is no justification and that may leave cracks in their view of Hürrem and it all may disturb them to a great amount. That's why they channel this ire on Mihrimah and perhaps demand for her to warm up to Rüstem, so they get the justification Hürrem supposedly deserves, especially paralleled with Valide and Mahidevran's previous attempt to marry Aybige and Mustafa, who.. surprise, surprise (but not really), didn't love each other. There's another facet to this, with people seeing or wanting to see Mihri only as "her mother's daughter" and not wanting to marry, not loving Rüstem destroys that picture, because there's a "crack in the system", she doesn't listen to her mother, who obviously knows better and that could be disappointing or demotivating, given the expectations she has set when she defended her in E84. Or maybe they dislike Mihrimah for not loving Rüstem, because they do find something in him. They love "bad boys" and genuinely don't know why Mihrimah doesn't, either and that could make them see her as an annoyance. Or maybe they just anticipate more juicy scenes between her and Rüstem because of the probable chemistry between the two actors and if they watch it only for the spectacle (believe me, such people really exist!), they may insist that Mihrimah is only spoiled and ruined everything for them. Or maybe, again, people may find this insulting to the historical facts or whatnot and if Mihrimah didn't not stand him, this "mess" of writing could be fixed a little. The writers have ruined her character along with the history, according to them. It's absurd, I know and I don't get it, either, but the reasons are there, as far as I'm concerned. That still doesn't take away from the fact that this is the weirdest accusation you could throw at Mihrimah, with how Rüstem himself is.

You're right that Mihrimah has many other, vastly more offputting traits that she could be disliked for. Little Mihrimah is very brash and spoiled and entitled, to the point she gave her own mother a run for her money. That was gone when she grew up, but it would be understandable if some didn't actually believe the change, especially when she shows this side of hers again every now and then. She could be perceptive, but could also be prone to influence at the same time, sometimes to an annoying degree. There have been times where she has let her own bias lead her and that clouded her judgement in several occasions. She came to idealize her mother too much sometimes, as well. She was terribly insistent on her infatuation with Bali Bey and letting go of it took her very long. She didn't want to listen much to the enemies of her own mother. Her huge love for Bayezid prevented her from viewing Selim as objectively. She could be vengeful. She could be bossy. She couldn't fully face someone calling her out on her mistakes. (the confrontation with Selim in E139) She became so engrained to her castle life that when she was offered a way out, she didn't follow it. All these are very interesting character flaws for me, but I get why they might be a dealbreaker. But disliking or hating her for not loving Rüstem? Heck, hating her for her contribution to Mustafa's death alone is more valid than that! Disliking her for all these flaws piling up together is perfectly reasonable. But for this? It's strange.

[istumpysk]

FIND SANSA’S HUSBAND™

After Daenerys Targaryen died, and Game of Thrones wrapped up about 5 minutes later (a time for wolves…?), many viewers were left with so many unanswered questions, and I’m going to argue that no bigger plot point was left unresolved than the Stark line of succession. As in, who will Sansa marry and/or father her children.

Now I noticed almost immediately something hilarious emerge through all that uncertainty, and that’s this almost canon-like widespread belief that Sansa will in fact marry...

Some Guy. Some Noble. Some Highborn. Some Northerner. Some Lord. Some Heir.

“Sansa will obviously marry some Northern son of high nobility to unify the kingdom.”

“Sansa will probably marry some 2nd or 3rd son of a major house in the South, to strengthen Southern alliances and trade opportunities.”

I know you’ve seen it, and it’s amazing, isn’t it? Oh, you know, Sansa is going to marry some man of high nobility, probably Northern but maybe not, potentially an heir but maybe a 3rd or 4th son as they’ll have to abandon their titles. It’s just that simple guys.

Listen, I’m not going to sit here and pretend this mystery holds the same weight as who ends up on the Iron Throne, but Sansa’s eventual marriage and her potential suitors is a colossal moving plot throughout the entirety of the series. It’s the foundation of some of the biggest storylines, linking the biggest characters and houses. It’s not a minor detail. To suggest Some Noble Guy is just going to show up behind door number two in the final act or epilogue, and that will be the end of that, is asinine. And it’s lazy.

And I promise you their primary motivation, whether they even realize it or not, is to dismiss and downgrade the importance of her and her storyline. Sansa is going to marry Some Noble Guy. It’s not really necessary information, you can move on now.

Besides being complete bullshit, it of course also begs the question -

Whom, exactly, are they speaking of?

Here’s the thing, we already know the major houses, we already know the major players, we already know the noteworthy fathers and sons across the entire continent, and their status within the story. Meaning, we already know Sansa’s husband. He has a name. He’s out there, sitting on one of the pages, just waiting to win the lottery.

So compelled by this mystery, motivated by being so annoyed, and suddenly having all the time in the world while in quarantine, I decided I wanted to find him.  

So, join me on this journey as I play the game of,

Before we get started, I think it would be wise to examine George R. R. Martin’s own words regarding Sansa, marriage, and nobility, then try to apply his logic to our search parameters.

Credit to @kellyvela​ / @butterflies-dragons​ for quotes:

Pretty obvious stuff here, but a good reminder as to why suggesting Sansa will marry Some Noble Guy is so profoundly stupid. Regardless of whether you believe Sansa will finish the story as Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North, it’s important to note, she’s a big fucking deal. She’s the product of two great houses and kingdoms aligning. She wouldn’t marry just any noble.

So far Sansa Stark (not including bastard Alayne Stone) has been betrothed to, planned to marry, or married the following:

Prince Joffrey Baratheon, future King of the Seven Kingdoms

Willas Tyrell, future Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, and Warden of the South

Tyrion Lannister, son of Tywin Lannister (Hand of the King, Lord of Casterly Rock, and Warden of the West)

Robert Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, and Warden of the East

Are you noticing a pattern here? I got to say, these names feel a bit more significant than Some Noble Guy.

Let me be clear, I’m not fangirling over here and suggesting Sansa is the most important person in the story and can only end up with the bestest most special guy. These matches are standard across all great houses.

Lyanna Stark? Betrothed to Robert Baratheon, then ran away with Rhaegar Targaryen. Catelyn and Lysa Tully? They married the heads of House Stark and House Arryn. Cersei Lannister? Only future King Rhaegar Targaryen and crowned King Robert Baratheon were good enough. Margaery Tyrell? On her 3rd “Baratheon” King. Arianne Martell? Was secretly betrothed to potential King Viserys Targaryen, courted by Edmure Tully, wished to marry Willas Tyrell, and is now sniffing around Aegon VI Targaryen. Myrcella Baratheon? Trystane Martell. Asha Greyjoy? Outlier. It’s a long story involving a seal.

And this isn’t just a set standard we can assume from George R. R. Martin’s interviews on the subject, or an inference we can make from other highborn matches made within the book. It’s explicitly acknowledged within the text.

Here’s Cersei’s thoughts on Sansa marrying Petyr Baelish, at the time the former Master of Coin on the King’s small council, and current Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident.

(Thank you @kellyvela​ for bringing it to my attention)

The Lord Paramount of the Trident is too lowborn for Sansa! It’s simply impossible, she thinks. Coming from the family that didn’t spare Sansa any amount of insult.

So I ask you, as we examine all potential candidates, keep that all in mind. There is a certain caliber of man that must be met.

Now regardless of everything I just said, I do agree with the logic of Sansa marrying a Northern man, even if he’s slightly below her status. If she is to be Queen, it makes the most sense she would marry someone from within her own kingdom.

So what I did was comb through every single noble house (38 of them!) in the North to find potential matches, while prioritizing the larger houses.

Here we go.

Oomf. Pretty poor selection. Seriously, I’m not fucking with you, that’s the entirety of what’s known and available from every single house. All 38 of them. It’s that bad.

So the next time some asoiaf-know-it-all tells you Sansa is going to marry a Northern son of high nobility, I desperately need you to show them that and beg them to tell you who. Because... wow. Also worth mentioning, there are still many wars to come.

Nevertheless, there’s still some names here that have potential, and I plan to do my due diligence and investigate them all.

Before that though, real quick, I’ve established an easy to follow system that ranks the probability of Sansa marrying any of these characters. We’ll call it Odds of the Crown.

From lowest to highest probability:

👑 LOL, stop.

👑 👑  There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

👑 👑 👑  It’s not impossible?

👑 👑 👑 👑  Maybe. There’s definitely a chance.

👑 👑 👑 👑 👑  Okay, you have mine and Sansa’s attention.

Let’s begin.

HARRION KARSTARK

Why this will happen:

The Karstarks are a principle noble house in the North, with ancient relations to the Starks.

After Robb executed Rickard Karstark, Sansa marrying Harrion might repair this once strong alliance.

Why this won’t happen:

Sansa’s brother chopped his father’s head off. Kind of awkward.

Harrion is the only son of Rickard Karstark, he would have to abandon his titles, and leave Karhold to Alys/Sigorn.

Harrion is currently being held captive by the Lannisters, with his great uncle Arnolf plotting with the Boltons to get him executed.

On the show the Karstarks sided with the Boltons in the war, and Sansa notably opposed granting Alys Karstark the rights back to Karhold for their disloyalty. By the end of the show the house was presumed extinct.

Chance of this happening:  👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

JOJEN REED

Why this will happen:

He’s the right age.

House Reed is one of the more prominent houses in the North, and remains incredibly loyal to House Stark.

It would be super cute if the friendship between Howland and Eddard produced a marriage between their children.

Why this won’t happen:

Jojen paste. The kid knows his fate, and it’s not a good prognosis.  

Jojen is the only male heir of House Reed. He’d have to abandon his titles, leaving Meera Reed as the heir to Greywater Watch. 

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

UNNAMED UMBER SONS

Why this will happen:

The Umbers are one of the larger noble houses in the North.

Given there’s apparently more than one, should Sansa marry an Umber, the house would still have a male heir to continue its lineage.

Why this won’t happen:

They don’t have names? Ranking very low on the relevancy scale here.

The show chose to depict the Umbers as siding with the Boltons in the war, had Sansa oppose giving them back the rights to Last Hearth, and then killed the last remaining member. Very curious decision from the writers if they were aware of any potential marriage.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible? 

ROGER RYSWELL, RICKARD RYSWELL, ROOSE RYSWELL

Why this will happen:

Because Sansa is desperate at this point.

Lord Rodrik Ryswell was once keen on marrying his daughter to Brandon or Eddard Stark, perhaps this social climber gets his wish for a Stark union with one of his sons. 

Why this won’t happen:

Very strong alliance with House Bolton: The Ryswells were the first to declare for House Bolton, Roose Ryswell is Lord Bolton’s namesake, and the first daughter of the family was Roose Bolton’s second wife.

While I haven’t been able to confirm their ages, I’m under the impression they’re all too old.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

BRANDON TALLHART, BEREN TALLHART

Why this will happen:

They’re the proper age and from a noble house previously sworn to House Stark, and that’s about it.

Why this won’t happen:

This is offensively below her status. Brandon and Beren are from a secondary branch of House Tallhart.

Super irrelevant. Beren is briefly mentioned in ACOF, but otherwise both get the appendix treatment throughout the entire series.

They’re currently being held captive by ironmen.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

LARENCE SNOW (of House Hornwood)

Why this will happen: 

He’s the proper age, and has been described as smart and courageous. 

Given House Hornwood is now extinct, legitimizing Larence and marrying him wouldn’t really muck up that line of succession.

There is a lot of bastard/snow foreshadowing and symbolism in Sansa’s story.

Why this won’t happen:

Who? Larence is briefly mentioned in ACOK, and is never brought up again. He gets the appendix treatment in both ASOS and AFFC. 

He’s a bastard, and even if he was legitimized, he’s still way way below her status.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

And...

Yeah, that’s it. For real.

If Sansa is to marry a Northern man of nobility, there’s your options. I expected it to be bad, but not laughably so.

I don’t sense any real contenders there, but you tell me. Do any of those men seem likely? Will one of those men marry Sansa Stark, become Prince Consort to the Queen or Lord of Winterfell, and father the heir to House Stark? I feel like we’re probably on the same page here.

So now what? Well we carry on with our search, and it looks like Sansa is going to have to travel South to find someone worthy.

Now I can envision Sansa making certain concessions with regards to nobility to marry a man from the North, but I absolutely can not see that happening should she marry a man from the South. He will have to be from a family of the highest nobility, with any union greatly benefiting the North in some capacity.

So I’ve gathered a list of the 4-6 biggest houses from each kingdom (In retrospect I was way too generous) to try to find our man, placing higher priority towards the Vale and Riverlands, where Sansa has strong familial bonds and established military alliances.

Houses that were disqualified? House Lannister and anybody that serves them, House Greyjoy and anybody that serves them, and House Frey. Common sense guys, her family and people died fighting these antagonists. There’s no way anybody would approve of her marrying someone from that group, nor would she want to.  

Now let’s take a look.

There it is, 31 of the most powerful, wealthy, and noteworthy houses in all of Westeros (minus the North), and who is available for Sansa to marry.

You might disagree with my selection of say, the 5th strongest house in the Riverlands, and that’s fine, but just realize the likelihood of Sansa’s husband coming from the 5th or 6th biggest house in a kingdom is astronomically low. I went way above and beyond to make a point. The biggest players are here, and they’re all that matters.

Now there’s certainly more to sink our teeth into here as opposed to the North, but admit it, you’re a bit shocked at how bare this cupboard looks as well, aren’t you? And let me remind you once more, there are still many wars to come.

I’m not going to go through every single candidate here, it goes without saying, some of these are so far-fetched and irrelevant it’s not worth the time, but I do plan on scrutinizing the majority, so grab a seat.

ROBERT ARRYN

Why this will happen:

He is the appropriate level of status and rank.

Sweetrobin is enamored with Sansa, and his mother planned to marry them.

He is her cousin, and there’s a certain unspoken security that comes with that which can’t be understated. Her safety as Queen/Lady will be paramount.

While definitely too young now, he’s much closer to her age than many other suitors.

The show had the Vale playing a role in the battle for the North and against the dead, which could easily happen in the books. Sansa might have to pay that debt with marriage.

Why this won’t happen:

Lord Robert Arryn is the last remaining member of House Arryn, an ancient great house. If we are to assume Sansa will remain in the North, it is pretty unrealistic to believe he’ll abandon his seat, effectively killing his house.

Closer to her age, but still really young.

While Robert is smitten with Sansa, she’s hardly in love with him.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

HARROLD HARDYNG

Why this will happen:

Currently plotted to marry SanAlayne Stone, and he might just cross the finish line.

Proper age, handsome. 

The cocky, brash antagonist turned decent, humbled man is a popular trope. Sansa might just fall in love with him after a fumbling start to their relationship.

Why this won’t happen:

While Harrold Hardyng might be the heir to the Vale, until he actually takes that seat, he is of very very low nobility. This is not a match that in any way benefits the North, and it’s borderline insulting.

If the plan is to marry a Southern Lord to strengthen alliances with other kingdoms, she should probably pick somebody from the Vale that Robert Arryn actually likes and approves of.

Harry’s got some bastards. Not a deal-breaker, but it’s definitely something to be concerned over. It poses a threat to her children.

The show creators knew the ending and still chose to cut this character.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 👑 Maybe. There’s definitely a chance. (I know I know, but they’re planned to marry, how can I go lower)

ANDAR ROYCE

Why this will happen:

The Royces are the second most powerful house in the Vale, and one of the oldest most powerful houses in all of Westeros. Proper high nobility.

Yohn Royce is a notable foe to Petyr Baelish, and was Sansa’s perpetual shadow on Game of Thrones, suggesting there might be more to this relationship than they let on.

Sansa notably had a crush on Andar’s younger brother, Waymar. In GRRM’s world of genetics, they’ll likely look very similar.

Why this won’t happen:

Yohn Royce has no other sons left, leaving nobody to carry on this proud family lineage.

He’s been getting the appendix treatment the past 3 books, despite SanAlayne being in close proximity.

It would have been very easy for the show to have Lord Royce’s son present and around Sansa, if it was meant to be a significant relationship. 

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

DONNEL WAYNWOOD, WALLACE WAYNWOOD, ROLAND WAYNWOOD

Why this will happen:

One of the larger noble houses in the Vale. 

All three are close to an appropriate age. 

The Waynwoods supported Lord Yohn Royce pressuring Lysa Arryn to enter the War of the Five Kings, presumably against the Lannisters. Lady Waynwood is also no friend of Petyr Baelish. They have the correct enemies.

Wallace dances with Alayne Stone in TWOW, putting them in close proximity. One point for being semi-relevant.

Why this won’t happen:

Barely any text dedicated to any of the three.

We’re in lower nobility territory.

Sansa describes Roland as horsefaced and homely, and Catelyn describes Donnel as stocky and homely. In GRRM’s world of genetics, Wallace will also be unattractive. Queen Sansa likes pretty things.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

GILWOOD HUNTER, EUSTACE HUNTER, HARLAN HUNTER

Why this will happen:

Principle house in the Vale, and I’ve got nothing else.

Why this won’t happen:

Gilwood is close to 50, and it’s safe to assume his brothers are not too far behind.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

PATREK MALLISTER

Why this will happen:

House Mallister is one of the most prominent houses in the Riverlands.

Patrek is good friends with Edmure Tully, and was a member of Robb Stark’s personal guards.

Catelyn describes Patrek’s father as handsome, making it a high probability Patrek is also handsome.

Why this won’t happen:

I can’t nail down an age, but I’m pretty confident he’s close to Edmure’s age (30ish). Much older.

He apparently enjoys drinking and women, which doesn’t please Queen Sansa.

He’s still being held captive after the Red Wedding.

He’s the sole heir of House Mallister.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen. 

BRYNDEN BLACKWOOD, HOSTER BLACKWOOD, EDMUND BLACKWOOD, ALYN BLACKWOOD

Why this will happen:

There sure is enough of them to go around! And they’re all around Sansa’s age.

One of the main families sworn to House Tully.

Ties to the North. Descendants of the First Men, used to rule most of the Wolfswood before being driven South. Their banner is a flock of ravens surrounding a dead weirwood.

Members of the house spend a lot of the story in close proximity to Catelyn and Robb.

Historically there exists a marriage between a Blackwood and Lord Cregan Stark.

Why this won’t happen:

There is almost no text dedicated to any of the four boys. All four get brief mentions in ADWD, with one minor appearance. Pretty low on the relevancy scale. 

We’re definitely venturing close to not high enough nobility.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

WILLAS TYRELL

Why this will happen:

Seems like a decent guy, and high points for narrative relevancy as he’s already been romantically linked with Sansa.

The Tyrells are one of the richest, most powerful families in all of Westeros. This alliance would serve the North incredibly well.

They do have sons to spare in case Willas decides to give up everything.

Kind of has a circular “happy ending” feel to it.

Why this won’t happen:

It would be absolutely insane for the heir to Highgarden to abandon everything and go play husband to Sansa Stark in the North. There’s been nothing to suggest he‘s stupid in love with her enough to do that.

Politically it’s kind of messy. The Tyrells supported Renly and then Joffrey in the War of the Five Kings. They’re known opportunists. 

It’s hard to imagine a scenario where they’ll be in close proximity to one another ever again.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

LORAS TYRELL

Why this will happen:

Sansa is weak in the knees.

Why this won’t happen:

Gay, in the Kingsguard, and apparently in the midst of dying at Dragonstone.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

GARTH HIGHTOWER, HUMFREY HIGHTOWER

Why this will happen:

Not including the 9 principle families Game of Thrones focused on, the Hightowers are likely the richest, most powerful family in all of Westeros. 

Garth is a 2nd son, and Humfrey a 4th. They would not be sacrificing the heir to House Hightower.

Why this won’t happen:

It’s hard to pinpoint their ages, but Garth is simply too old. Humfrey is anywhere between 15-28, with the high end being more likely.

They have absolutely no ties to Sansa or House Stark. This marriage would come out of nowhere.

Chance of this happening:  👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

HORAS REDWYNE, HOBBER REDWYNE

Why this will happen:

The right age, and prominent house.

They get a few mentions in Sansa chapters, so not totally irrelevant.

Twins, so House Redwyne could spare one.

Why this won’t happen:

Hobber is called as a witness in the trial of Joffrey Baratheon’s death, implicating Tyrion and by extension Sansa.

Sansa and Jeyne used to call them Ser Horror and Ser Slobber, and laugh whenever they appeared. They’re ugly. What? Don’t pretend this isn’t important.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

EDRIC DAYNE

Why this will happen:

Proper age, and described as a nice boy.

Comes in close proximity to Sansa in King’s Landing, and then attempts to befriend Arya in ASOS. He believes his wet nurse is Jon Snow’s mother, making them milk brothers. He’s not entirely irrelevant.

He goes by Ned, which is kind of poetic I guess.

Why this won’t happen:

His family fought against the Starks in the rebellion, it’s believed Ned Stark killed his uncle.

He apparently abandoned his station as Lord of Starfall, and pledged service to the Brotherhood without Banners. Now he’s unaccounted for, getting the appendix treatment the last two books.

Simply put, not high enough nobility.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

DONNEL SWANN, BALON SWANN

Why this will happen:

I have no idea.

Why this won’t happen:

Because obviously it won’t.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

GENDRY, EDRIC STORM

Why this will happen:

Sansa and bastards are like peanut butter and jelly.

Some people believe the story is destined to finish with a Stark and Baratheon marriage, and Sansa finishing her arc married to a legitimized Baratheon bastard is really funny.

They’re the proper age, nice boys, and attractive.

Gendry lived as a lowborn, and while Edric lived comfortably at Storm’s End and was acknowledged by his father, it’s easy to envision both abandoning their titles for love/marriage.

Gendry spends a lot of time near Starks.

Why this won’t happen:

I can’t even begin to understand the rationale of having Gendry and Arya have sex, if the writers knew him or Edric (it’s a merged character on the show) end up with Sansa in the books.

Edric is in Essos, and Gendry is at the inn at the crossroads, still unaware of his parentage. It’s hard to picture how these storylines merge, or how either is placed in a position to romantically pursue Sansa.

Even if legitimized Gendry is way too lowborn for Sansa.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

AEGON VI TARGARYEN (Young Griff)

Why this will happen:

He is an appropriate age, and seems like a decent enough guy.

If he’s truly Rhaegar’s son, he is the proper level of nobility.

A lot of people believe this is foreshadowed in the books.

A lot of people believe the story will end with a Stark and Targaryen marriage.

Why this won’t happen:

He might not be Rhaegar’s son.

How in the world in his story ever going to merge with Sansa’s?

If he is Aegon Targaryen, it’s hard to imagine him abandoning the throne to be Sansa’s husband, unless they have an opportunity to fall madly in love. How? Where?

If he isn’t Aegon Targaryen, why is Sansa marrying him?

Arianne Martell, another very single very highborn lady from another great house, is probably going to meet him first.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

And...

Yeah, that’s it. (Well... kinda. Ahem.)

So we just went through the 31 most powerful houses in the rest of Westeros, and I can’t say I feel confident with any of those names. Harry wins by default? Sweetrobin gets the girl? Willas makes a comeback? Aegon VI for the win? Admit it, for everyone it really feels like the reasons it won’t happen far outweigh the reasons it will.

So is that it then? Not exactly. There’s a few left, we’ll call them The Leftovers. Prominent characters that for whatever reason have been disqualified, or never considered, but have strong associations to Sansa’s story or the North.

Let’s take a look.

TYRION LANNISTER

Why this will happen:

Well, they’re already married, so that certainly helps in meeting the necessary criteria.

The marriage might never be annulled.

GRRM has a hard on for Tyrion.

It wouldn’t be a stretch for them to be married, and have him stationed in King’s Landing with Bran, while Sansa remains at Winterfell.

Why this won’t happen:

It’s taken a year, but I feel we’ve all come to terms with the fact that he will in fact be Hand of the King to Bran Stark. Meaning, he’s not in the North. Difficult to produce an heir that way. 

With his father dead, it’s hard to understand why Tyrion would want to remain married to Sansa without her returning his affection.

Petyr Baelish will choke before he allows this to continue.

Let’s be real, if Tyrion actually wins the girl in the end, that’s his equivalent to winning the Game of Thrones. They 100% would have written and filmed this ending for Peter Dinklage if it actually happened.

Instead they had her reject his ass one more time, in case Tyrion didn’t get the message.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 👑 Maybe. There’s definitely a chance. (I’m only saying this because he’s already her husband!)

JAIME LANNISTER

Why this will happen:

"I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor." 

Why this won’t happen:

Age? Lannister? Kingsguard? Pretty committed to his sister?

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

PODRICK PAYNE

Why this will happen:

He’s the correct age, and he spends a lot of time near Sansa or people associated with Sansa.

Why this won’t happen:

His house serves House Lannister.

His cousin cut off her father’s head.

His house is lower nobility, and he’s of an even lower branch within that house.

He’s not a Sex God in the books, he’s a scared little boy who never speaks.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

JORAH MORMONT

We are absolutely not discussing this.

Chance of this happening: 👑 LOL, stop.

PETYR BAELISH

Why this will happen:

Petyr Baelish is very good at getting what he wants, and he has no greater ambition than marrying CatSansa Stark and taking the Iron Throne.

Why this won’t happen:

She’s going to destroy him.

Chance of this happening: 👑 LOL, stop.

RAMSAY BOLTON

Why this will happen:

I mean there’s absolutely no way Sansa will ever willingly marry Ramsay Bolton as Lady or Queen, but he could certainly capture her before that, rape her, and father her bastard, which she could later legitimize.

Why this won’t happen:

The show would have just done that? It’s not like they spare her any amount of horror.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 It’s not impossible?

THEON GREYJOY

Why this will happen:

He’s from a great house, I guess.

Because Theon Greyjoy is an asshole, who likes to fantasize about bedding Sansa Stark.

The show liked to tease this potential for some completely bizarre reason.

Why this won’t happen:

Greyjoy. Bad.

It’s very important to me that you understand book!Theon and show!Theon are very different people.

Um, he’s a pretty big reason why her family and people are dead.

Not to be an ableist on main, but I don’t see how taking on a husband who can’t produce heirs is of any benefit to the crown.

If you think show!Theon is a shell of a human, wait until you get a load of this guy.

Chance of this happening: 👑 👑 There’s virtually no reason to believe this will happen.

SANDOR CLEGANE

Ohhh, boy.

I’ve been waiting for this one, if I’m being honest. Remember at the beginning of all of this I shared two quotes from GRRM regarding Sansa and nobility? I have one more thing for you to read. Here’s an interview he did with Time magazine in 2011:

Buckle up.

Why this won’t happen:

HE’S TOO OLD. George R. R. Martin has told you he’s too old, and then in case you didn’t get the message, played an integral role in hiring a 40 year old Rory McCann to play opposite a 13 year old Sophie Turner. Does that happen if he knows they’ll eventually be romantically involved? No, of course not, you dunce.

His house is pledged to House Lannister! Are you stupid? Are you dumb? Why is Sansa marrying anyone from a house that stood in opposition to Robb? Why would anyone in the North approve of that?

Oh but you want to tell me he’s disavowed the Lannisters, House Clegane and the Kingsguard? Yeah, that’s great, that means he’s LESS THAN A NOBODY now. No titles, no lands, no power, no money. This is the equivalent of the princess running away with the stable boy. IT DOESN’T FUCKING HAPPEN. Even as a Clegane serving as a knight to the King, he is so far below her nobility it’s absurd. House Clegane doesn’t even own a god damn castle.

You know Beauty and the Beast? Yeah, he’s a prince with a castle and staff. Spot the difference.

He’s a piece of shit, who terrifies her.

Hopefully he’s dead.

The author is legitimately shocked you ship this. Why would the author be surprised you’re shipping something he’s trying to signal? You ninny.

The show went out of their way to have her reject his ass ONE MORE TIME for the slow ones.

Are you looking for the reasons why this will happen? They don’t exist.

Chance of this happening: 👑 LOL, stop.

Woo, glad I got that off my chest. I apologize if you ship Sandor and Sansa and I’ve offended you (not really, it’s gross).

Anyway, what do you think? Any of those men work for you? Probably not. I mean Tyrion has a leg up on everyone else, simply because he’s already married to her, but it’s hard to envision that marriage surviving given what we know about the finale.

This sucks. We’ve gone through everybody!

38 Northern houses, 31 non-Northern Westerosi houses, random characters, and all we’ve turned up with is some pretty shoddy candidates.

Poor Sansa. I guess that single, perfectly aged, high nobility, Northern son just doesn’t exist.

...

Unless....?

JON SNOW

Why this will happen:

He’s a Northerner.

He is an appropriate age.

Assuming he’s a legitimized son of Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Targaryen, he is of the highest nobility.

Unlike almost every other candidate, Jon Snow can and will easily abandon all titles and his family’s name to marry Sansa and/or produce an heir for House Stark.

Given how the show played out, there’s a high probability their storylines are on a collision course.

There’s a certain safety and security with Sansa marrying a family member she grew up with, which will be paramount if she is Queen.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, a lot of people believe this is heavily foreshadowed in the books. A lot of people believe this saga will finish with a Stark and Targaryen union.

In the books exists a prophecy that Daenerys Targaryen will be betrayed for love, and the show seemed to confirm Jon as that betrayer, and positioned Sansa as the reason for that betrayal. Things that make you go hmm.

The original outline, etc. etc.

Why this won’t happen:

He’s apparently exiled by the end of the books, calling into question the timeline in which this could possibly happen.

Being a bastard Targaryen or a legitimized Targaryen is not remotely ideal. The Targaryens have a history of butchering Starks, and another one is about to napalm King’s Landing.

While cousins marrying is not considered incestuous in Westeros, Sansa and Jon grew up as brother and sister, which complicates this. Sansa is nothing if not extremely proper, conservative and moralistic. Marrying her half-brother might be too hard for her to overcome, even if they weren’t close.

This is never discussed, but I feel required to point out that Arya (and to a much lesser extent Bran and Rickon) might not be comfortable or approve of this union, which would weigh heavily on both of them.

He’s kind of dead, and we don’t know what kind of weirdo is coming back.

Chances of this happening: 👑 👑 👑 👑 👑 Okay, you have mine and Sansa’s attention.

WELL THEN.

Sure, personal biases exists, but I feel strongly anyone being impartial can admit one of these men makes a lot more sense than the rest. I won’t hold my breath though.

So is that it then? Are we declaring Jon Snow the winner? Not quite, there exists a few other possibilities I shouldn’t just ignore. Let’s argue them.  

Sansa ends the story single.

You know I used to think this was complete bollocks, but after completing this, it truly feels like it’s either this or Jon Snow.

I’ll tell you why I don’t think it will happen though. If George ever finishes the series, that will likely be the end of it. At his age and health, it’s hard to envision a sequel in which we could learn how or if the Stark lineage continued. Leaving Sansa single, and never answering how House Stark lives on -- the central house of the entire series -- is like leaving a hole the size of an asteroid.

Sansa will choose to never marry or have children.

Boy do you not understand Sansa Stark. Missed by a lot of people who suggest this, is the cause for most of the conflict in the series: disputed lines of succession. More than perhaps any other character, Sansa understands her role within society as a Lady and future Queen, and the responsibility that comes with that. She is extremely dutiful by nature, most especially when it comes to marriage. If you believe Sansa will ever purposely choose to bury her house, never produce an heir, and allow the North to disintegrate into civil unrest and war, you’re not good at reading.

George R. R. Martin is also kind of a traditionalist (and pig). If you believe he’s building Sansa to eventually become some ra-ra feminist who don’t need no man or child, you might need a reality check.

I think there’s also something to be said about people conflating show!Sansa and book!Sansa. One still very much dreams of love, marriage and children. But even if you do believe book!Sansa will slowly evolve to mirror her show counterpart, who was the first person to highlight the issue of Bran not being able to have children? Sansa.

Sansa’s arc is about self-empowerment, not marriage/love.

Why not both?

Sansa ends up in another kingdom, married to a Lord.

I guess my question would be, who exactly is running Winterfell then? Five year old Rickon and a wildling? I wish you the best of luck with that theory.

Sansa dies.

Keep dreaming. 

Sansa’s husband has yet to be introduced or made relevant.

I mean, sure? That possibility exists. Sansa could eventually meet and fall in love with unnamed Umber son #2, and have a happy ending. It feels extremely unlikely at this point in time though, and I would question why the show wouldn’t at the very least allude to it. GRRM is also a man who likes foreshadowing, and burying clues for almost every major event that takes place. I’m not sure why he would be stalling on this.

Bran, Rickon or Arya will continue the line of succession.

Well the first one most definitely can’t, the next is 5 years old, and the last one doesn’t seem thrilled with the idea. But admittedly, she’s very young and has a lot of life to live. Sure, this could happen. In the middle of the ocean.

Sansa is actually gay.

That’s an interesting interpretation of the character. Have fun on ao3. 

Sansa will legitimize and mother an orphan/bastard.

Sure? I don’t hate this at all? Though, I would wonder why the show just didn’t take 2 minutes to show her fostering children who lost their parents in the war with the dead, allowing us to draw that conclusion.

This also has the potential to be devastating to the North, and Sansa would definitely not be able to have her own children should she make this decision. Disputed lines of succession are a recipe for disaster throughout the series and side books.

There also seems to be a great importance put on the magic of Stark blood and Starks being in Winterfell, but maybe GRRM is trying to tell us through Daenerys Targaryen that blood purity propaganda is stupid as shit. Who knows.  

***

I think that’s it?

So what is the conclusion?

I’m tired, the conclusion is that she’s marrying Jon Snow or he’s providing her with an heir. There’s nobody else.

Actually no, the real point of this was to point out the absurdity of diminishing this storyline and the fanbase essentially asking you to reconsider every single thing you know about ASOIAF. The conclusion of Sansa’s story, and the prosperity of House Stark through her, is extremely important. It’s not a minor detail.

Some Noble Guy? Complete bullshit. I know them all, and now you do too.

tl;dr

Found him. His name is Jon.