rampagingthoughtsofhope

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

You know what really REALLY pisses me off about how casual the show is about Marinette just risking to kill Adrien in Werepapas despite the akuma literally being a non-threat to the city and wasn't even a mortal threat whatsoever to the two victimized civilians either?

That even Felix fucking Fathom was held to a higher moral standard regarding Adrien's survival than Marinette Dupain-Cheng is now.

For as much of a victim-blaming hypocrite of a backstabber (who took no accountability for that) as Felix was to Adrien, part of Felix' initial resentment towards Adrien came from Adrien not being in danger of being snapped out of existence by Gabriel like Felix was / felt like.

This factor is even highlighted at the end of Strike Back when Gabriel asks him how he can know that he can trust him with the Peacock and Felix replied that if he truly wanted to hurt Gabriel like that™ then he would have already done so.

This can only refer to Adrien's life (especially since they were talking about him the line berfore this, too). Felix had one of Adrien's amoks for a whole season, so if he wanted to kill Adrien, he would have done so already (and this was the one factor that actually made Gabriel pause from taking all the other Miraculous, so even GABRIEL here was held to a higher moral standard than Marinette is)

And then later in Emotion, Felix' whole deal is that, yes, he's going on a genocide rampage, but the power of the Red Moon made it so that he himself has the power to 100% bring everyone back safely. That's why he freaked out when he thought he couldn't bring Marinette back and why Red Moon itself was the one kill he cried over. Red Moon by design was a Sentimonster that isn't safe to be brought back the way it was, so it's not a "temporary kill" as with every other of his Sentimonsters. Killing Red Moon in the end meant that it won't ever return because HE created it to be too dangerous and unfit for the world for that to be possible.

And logically, this whole temporary kill logic also included him taking Adrien out of existence for a while. The only reason for why he did that is because Felix was 100% certain that he has the power to bring Adrien back safe and sound:

Felix did not take a risk regarding Adrien's life, no matter how downright awfully Felix' has been treating Adrien.

That's, like, the lowest fucking bar one can be given credit for regarding taking someone out of existence

And yet that's still a bar Marinette Dupain-Cheng is not asked to fucking REACH NOW!

Felix fucking Fathom has the moral high ground here! Do you have any idea how upset that makes me?

And not just that! The one and only reason why Felix spared Marinette and declared her "the one good human who can be trusted to live amongst the Sentikids" is because he was certain that she can be credited with the same pathetically low bar of "Adrien's Senti existence isn't threatened by this person" as he even gave Gabriel Agreste credit for (again, this isn't a compliment towards Gabriel, that's the most pathetically low bar there is):

And yet 5 EPISODES INTO SEASON 6 and Felix was already proven clear-cut WRONG about Marinette! WHY?? He just doesn't get to know about it - same as everyone else - so the show can sweep Marinette's willingness to have actively human sacrificed Adrien for her self-prioritization under the rug.

Do you have any idea how upset, no, how ANGRY I am that Felix toxic-backstabber Fathom has the moral high ground here?? And that in the case of him finding out about this i couldnt blame him for turning on Marinette and loosing the fragile grace and good faith he just developed for her in season 5 to instead give her hell for her disregard of Sentibeing's lives? Since if Marinette doesn't even respect and value ADRIEN'S Senti-life then how can he trust her with any other Sentibeing? Especially Kagami and himself?

Jfc, I couldn't BLAME this asshole for turning on Marinette! I hate that! And I couldn't blame Kagami either for being fucking FELIX' number 1 supporter in this because Marinette literally preferred for Adrien to be her DEAD boyfriend over setting a possible outcome into motion where he wouldn't want to be with her anymore!

I couldn't blame ANYONE for turning on Marinette after that! Cause if shes willing to disregard ADRIEN like that for her self-prioritization, then there is NO ONE she can be trusted to put first!

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

Hey 👋 I've come here for another question and since this is a safe place for Critical part of the mlb I've come to this ask to ask something

All I've seen from the Fandom that apparently mari stopped her stalking or is growing away from it, i find that hard to believe as an old fan and now a rewatcher

I generally don't believe they'll just trying to her self reflect and grow from her stalking considering the show track record of showing in a positive light even if she did grow past it I still don't think she should be in a relationship with the person who she stalked (Adrian) and have them not be a couple

But I'll get to the point does she grow from this or was it the opposite? It just stopped showing up on screen?

---

There is one scene where Kagami compares Marinette ro Adrien's groupies and Marinette very grudgingly concedes the point before insisting she's “a lot better about it now” and “did it out of love”. She's still broken into his house twice to find out what's going on with him, never mind all the stuff she did to Sublime, a girl Adrien befriended without her supervision. All in all it just seems like the only reason she cut back on the stalking is that, now that Adrien is dating her, she has less reasons to do so.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

Remember how Adrien initially was supposed to be disability rep, but the show writers/ Astruc admitted that they scraped that inclusion because they didn't know how to handle writing the disability aspect respectfully enough?

Yeah, looking at how they wrote Marinette as a main character and the narratives around Lila's disability lies, Rose being a "good disabled person" for explicitly saying she doesn't want any consideration (so the show can instead give it to Marinette), and now seeing how Sublime was treated with the ending having her be yet another one of Marinette's care takers and do all the work because the show wants you to believe Marinette feeling uncomfortable and anxious is the greatest torture known to mankind?

Well, I sure understand why Adrien wasn't allowed to be important and needed disability rep for a new generation of children. The love square and moral standards of the writing is already in irreparable shambles and non stop sends bad messages to children due to the insane Marinette bias. Thank God they were smart enough to not bring harmful ableism into every single episode, particularly because Ladybug treating Chat Noir like a stupid pet, punching bag, and canon fodder to sacrifice for her strategies was declared the greatest display of leadership and professionalism ever. Couldn't do that to a disabled character because then the "abuse is fine when its a girl doing it to a boy", Marinette's writing relies on, wouldn't fly anymore.

Sure is pathetic though that they didn't just decide to NOT write Marinette like that anymore once they figured that her writing makes major disability rep pretty much impossible, but I guess Marinette getting free passes and validation for being the only one that matters, so everyone else owes her to be "save to hurt", was more important than giving disabled children a well-treated main hero character they can see themselves in with Adrichat.

Good to see that the show always had the wrong prioritise.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

Daddycop analysis: How Marinette viewed Adrinette when it came to FATE

I don't get around to make a better structured post, but the one thing that actually intrigues me in it's 'bothersomeness' about Marinette's drama in "Daddycop" (and one for which I'm very curious if it'll be the same in the French original cause it might just be a case of English Dub dialogue changes) is the way the episode just leaves it pretty much unresolved that Marinette, while sobbing about how her happiness is forever ruined, was out here blaming all of that on Adrien not changing his mind on having the date TOMORROW (so its not like she was denied anything, the point literally was that she gets both her date and her girls night fully instead of half-assing both at the same time. So Adrien rescheduled the date to the next day. This happened for HER benefit) while acting like SHE had nothing to do with the date not having happened.

"You all agreed to it [Adrien coming, though they didn't actually know cause she tiptoed around saying anything useful cause she didn't wanted to be told "no"], but it looks like it didn't change his mind, and now everything is ruined [puts her head on the table]"

Like, girl, that's a crazy victim-complex on display right here. Omfg.

In a situation where Marinette thinks having the 100th kiss this evening is the only way that'll cosmically seal their happiness, and not having it will cosmically doom everything and she'll apparently never know happiness again,

Girl sure showed NO self-awareness that the reason why Adrien explicitly said "no" several times was because SHE forgot the plans she already made with her friends, as well as not realizing that she nuked any normal chance for him to change his mind by keeping on insisting on him attending without listening to what he's saying (which she continued doing):

But for Marinette, that didn't matter. In her eyes, there was nothing SHE could have possibly done that could result in her being anything but innocent in their relationship ending up being cosmically doomed. Only ADRIEN can be wrong in the case of this specific evening deciding their fate as couple. Not her. Not even for a single SECOND, her.

And on a VERY important note:

She also doesn't think that withholding the knowledge of this cosmic event from Adrien is unfair or a factor in itself that could POSSIBLY be what's upsetting fate. Only SHE deserves information and is unquestionably MEANT to have it, while ADRIEN has to unrealistically bend over backwards and submit to her will to prove that he will bring her eternal happiness and without getting to know the context either.

Funny how that is perfectly in line with the constant conflict now going on even after the season 5 finale. ADRIEN (or everyone else) has to prove that Marinette will be given eternal happiness, care, consideration, and will be catered to almost no matter what because that's still pretty much all her anxiety is canonically about, like in s4 and 5.

And that's the thing that gets me in this. That Marinette, until the akuma battle, fully blamed everyone else BUT herself for everything, with the sobbing on the table scene summarizing it:

"You all agreed to it [Adrien coming, though they didn't actually know cause she tiptoed around saying anything useful cause she didn't wanted to be told "no"], but it looks like it didn't change his mind, and now everything is ruined [puts her head on the table]"

If Marinette's anxiety and trauma actually were manifesting the way her fans/ stans make it out to be, then Marinette's instinctive reaction here would have been crying about and damning her own forgetfulness and lack of focus for ruining her chance of happiness.

But that's not what's happening in Daddycop. Marinette only ever blames ADRIEN and SHE is only the victim. In her eyes, this cosmic event was at its core about HER and no one else.

She doesn't desperately try to let Adrien know that there is an important cosmic event going on - that she's aware of and he isn't -and that it could doom their future if they don't save their love TOGETHER.

And she doesn't try any plan like calling him during girls night because she "forgot" to buy something important, but knows HE has it at home, too, so could he please come over at a certain time and bring it along? Where she then could kiss him at the right time.

Still questionable in method, but I'd get the vision due to her acknowledging that SHE is the reason the date didn't happen in the first place. There would be something here to hold onto.

But Marinette in the actual episode does NON of that.

Marinette is sobbing on the table about how ADRIEN not changing his mind, for no reason in his eyes, ruined everything and SHE is nothing but the blameless and broken victim due to HIS actions.

She fully judged Adrien in his worth as her true love and their whole relationship and future on whether she's getting everything she wants without having to communicate what's important, what's going on, and WHY. And, again, it says so much about her in this that she only judges HIM for not magically making up for HER lack of focus, inflexibility, and forgetfulness getting in between fate's plans for them. She's never once judging herself, ONLY HIM.

And I need you to not write that off for a second because PLEASE put into perspective how Marinette would have treated Adrien the next day in school if it hadn't been for the akuma battle having cleared her mind.

I don't care if you don't wanna hear it, but Marinette wrote off their entire relationship and Adrien as the right partner for her because "he didn't prove it by changing his mind to magically only exist in the perfect way to validate her spiraling that she never communicates".

If it hadn't been for the akuma battle and the other girls going after Sabrina, Marinette not only would have mentally already broken up with Adrien, but she (based on her more than consistent characterization) also would have at first kept her distance from Adrien in silence the next day, only to eventually reveal that she's blaming him for breaking her heart by neglecting and dismissing her efforts to spend time with him and how that showed her that they are not meant to be and there is no hope for them.

Which, btw, sure would have put Adrien seeing THIS face, after not letting her have her way ONE TIME, in an even nastier context because it was already a red flag he handled with alot of patience and consideration for her anxiety and "squirks" (which makes it even worse that she proceeds to blame him for everything):

Worst case scenario, Adrien would have had every single friend turned against him. But even in the best case scenario, Adrien would need to practically beg on his knees for Marinette to PLEASE believe him that telling her "no, we'll date tomorrow" doesn't mean she isn't the love of his life and he will do ANYTHING to prove to her that he will make up for the pain she experienced because he didn't "consider her anxiety enough".

Quite realistically speaking, Marinette would have not been fully convinced by that and Alya and the girls might have even have to eventually figure out that Marinette's bs is rooted in some cosmic fate thing her mother told her about, so they would need to involve Sabine who would then need to hold her daughter's hand, explain to her that fate isnt real, and beg Marinette to let her abused and orphaned boyfriend take care of her and worship her again.

Like, THAT was the set-up situation we fortunately dodged like a bullet. But for way too long, THAT was where the situation was leading to as the full narrative scale of Marinette blaming Adrien and only viewing herself as the victim.

But the worst thing about this is that her blaming Adrien is the one thing the message of the episode kinda sweeps under the rug again and gives no satisfying ending to. For the whole girls squad plot, the episode at least has her properly acknowledge that she sidelined her friends for her boyfriend and didn't pay attention to anything or anyone else in front of her again:

"[...] and I, too, want to apologize. Ive been focusing so much on my relationship with Adrien that... I forgot to give my attention to the ones that really need it (Sabrina). I promise, I'll be more attentive from now on *hugs Sabrina*"

(Let's ignore for a sec that the show had Marinette say that her freshly orphaned and abused boyfriend apparently DOESN'T actually need more of her special attention. What a 'charming' lesson after Illustrhater and Sublimation that only came to be now because Marinette was told "no" one time. As if Adrien not wanting to date ONE EVENING, when he didnt wanted to because he knew she would ignore her friends for it so he wants to date tomorrow, somehow means he doesn't need special consideration anymore the way she gets because thats normal in a relationship. No wonder she almost killed him one episode later lol Trying not to do that would have required more special attention and consideration than the whole custody situation already asked of her. I guess that's the lesson here, huh? lol)

But the lesson in the end also explicitly states that Marinette learned that her focusing so much on Adrien was the thing she did wrong. Meaning, what was "wrong" is still entirely Adrien-associated in Marinette's head.

"I forgot something! *kisses Adrien* 100! I wanted to save it for our special evening, but.. in the end.. I realized that we don't need a conjunction or fireworks to love each other"

And towards Adrien she says that she learned that they don't need these special things she planned to love each other (side note: would he even know what she randomly means by conjunction? WE and Marinette know what this refers to, but Adrien has no context for it)

Only that all of that doesn't acknowledge how Marinette unfairly put all blame on Adrien when she thought fate was real and you just have to hope in good faith that Marinette truly got her mind out of the gutter somewhere off-screen since yesterday.

Cause her just saying "but.. in the end.. I realized that we don't need a conjunction or fireworks to love each other"" isn't actually clarifying that, when contextually all she may as well be saying here is "I'm so glad I realized that you aren't the bad guy who's all alone to blame for ruining our relationship and my happiness forever🥹"

Like, you get what I'm saying, right?

She stopped blaming Adrien in the end and didn't act like him saying "no, please wait one day", one time, equaled him breaking her heart and breaking up with her, because she cleared her head during an akuma fight and a friend crisis which made her realized that the whole cosmic thing wasn't happening in the first place.

And not because she realized that even IF the cosmic fate event had been real, then ADRIEN wouldn't have been the one in the wrong anyway because SHE was the whole reason, in numerous ways, for why he said "no".

There is a difference here that the episode was not willing to actually clarify because the end scene would play out exactly the same even if it were only "Marinette letting Adrien 'off the hook' because she realized that the cosmic event not being real now makes HER the guilty one. Hence why she looks sheepish and apologetic".

But that tells us nothing about how this would have ended if she still were convinced fate was real. The episode, seemingly, just suddenly had her drop that belief during or after the akuma battle. Definitely nowhere near on-screen and explained. So the end scene, contextually, does not correspond to all the Adrinette set up we saw. Those are two very different circumstances.

During the set up, she thought fate is real. During the end scene, she already let go of that belief since yesterday. And that's a pretty significant thing to sweep under the rug again regarding Marinette's consistent characterizations. Cause this IS fully in character for her to do and it's only made worse by Miraculous often implying, or sometimes even outright SAYING, that fate, destiny and even LUCK are real cosmic forces that run their universe. You know, for example the way Tikki herself made a lucky charm specifically for a renounced MARIBUG in the second half of "Kwamis Choice" and the universe fucking maneuvered that Lucky Charm right into Marinette's arms all by itself? Yeah. That counts. And its only one of countless of times they do stuff like this and it's always consistent writing wise.

So what does it say about our main character that they just dropped this point without clarifying whether she actually got her head out of the gutter? Cause that's all they did: they dropped it in favor of making it all about the girls squad message. The end scene doesn't prove shit and the writing went out of its way to leave it like that.

I dont wanna say that I'm having faith in the long-term writing, but I am saying that I'm sick of not treating this show like the well-planned product the writers demand it to be. Not my fault or problem when the product doesnt hold up what we're being told. In that case, I just have more proof that they COULD be telling a cohesive and interesting story, they just refuse to.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

I would like to know how much of the total run time of almost every episode is dedicated to Marinette screaming, whining, and stressing about the same things she then never learns rlly from?

Same as the dedicated run time to Marinette getting comforted, praised to high heaven, absolved of most all accountability and blame, and getting her lies and inconsidered actions validated by people she hurt because they give her the benefit of the doubt but dont get to have the full picture because that's not important for her validation.

It feels like it should be making up over half the run time of almost any given episode. If not more at times. It's nonstop all this show ever does. It's obnoxious, honestly.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

...The london special could've been completely avoided if Marinette just told Plagg to go home 🙄

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

It's funny how the same people who will give Catrien all the shit for sacrificing himself in a fight to save Ladybug's ass or for having ANY feelings that arent to her liking in any moment (despite her rarely ever thinking of him in ANYTHING and calling it "being professional") are now REAL quiet about her fr turning around in Sublimation to let herself get hit by the akuma just to proof to her ego that she is nothing short of her best self

Apparently, she couldn't live without having that cosmically proven to herself, no matter what the price may be.

Let that sink in. The LADYBUG was fully willing to risk any possible negative outcome of letting herself get hit because her ego was more important. But Cat Noir is "selfish", right? And what was that comment about MODESTY, Marinette? I couldn't understand it over you letting yourself get hit for your ego.

But lemme guess, that's Cat Noir's fault because he "put the idea into her pretty little head", right? Good thing no standards ever apply to our local goddess, or else that sure would look ugly now after all the shit she gave Cat Noir.

Can't wait for the weak ass excuses in the notes that reek of hypocrisy and a Marinette biase so strong even Plagg would run from that smell.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

Ladybug: we're volunteering, Bob!

Also Ladybug: overwrites Cat Noir's right to renounce twice, in Kuro Neko and Kwamis Choice, by deciding over his head that he MUST return because SHE says so and doesn't care both times if he even wants to, if he CAN, or what the problem was in the first place because "leaders owe you nothing, but I'm owed everything"

Also Also Ladybug: teaches Cat Noir that he's a selfish piece of shit for not having showed up a few times to "volunteer" and that he owes her to always be there no matter how badly he's off in her leadership so she doesn't have to care about the Black Cat Miraculous

Marinette, I don't believe you know how to SPELL the word "volunteering". You made it clear in every way there is that Cat Noir has NO choice in this and that you won't respect him renouncing or not showing up.

So how is that "volunteering", mademoiselle? What are you giving yourself credit for?

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

I feel so mean for saying that, but you know what I think would be ironically funny about the foreshadowing now that Marinette will loose her memories at one point, so Alya will obviously have to somehow restore it again (cuz no way is that gonna be more than a 2 parter thing. There are no stakes in this)?

If its not some outside force that forces Marinette to do it or some situation that actually requires for Marinette as guardian to give up her memories to keep the Miraculous save

It would be so funny atp if it happens because Marinette is stressed(tm) again and can't handle it when her giant web of lies are revealed by Lila, and because people are having some kind of a negative reaction and don't immediately prioritise her, she thinks that's the worst possible thing that ever happened and gives up her guardianship and memories of the last year to escape that and go back to being normal girl with a normal life Marinette.

I know it's so mean, but I can see it happening so easily that this is what the temporary memory loss will be. And then Alya has to talk to memory Marinette to find out why she gave up her memories, is told by her in pretty words that it's yet again her avoiding any long overdue consequences of her inactions (and bad choices), so Alya has to clue in memory-less Marinette on what happened until Marinette eventually make the decision to use whatever random way they'll come up with to restore her memories and face the reality "for the greater good"

But of course only AFTER everyone learned to not be mad at her for anything and view her as the true victim bc "don't you see how much she suffered? Everyone was so unreasonable and mean and bullying her that she felt the need to give up her memories! Grrrrrr, don't be mean to Marinette! It's not her fault she never said anything!"

Everybody in the fandom is angsty as shit about this, but I think this is way more likely to happen. The ultimate way out of facing consequences when the lies are out that doubles as perfect way to make everyone priorities her feelings again

---

Damn, anon, you cooked with this. I have nothing more to add other than this is perfectly in character and matches how the show has repeatedly handled Marinette’s “consequences”. Marinette’s consequences for her behavior are always self-inflicted punishments. She makes herself feel bad, she calls herself bad things, she convinces herself she’ll never find love and doesn’t deserve it. Even her Lucky Charm had now been a part of her self-flagellation. Taking away her own memories because she doesn’t “deserve” to be a hero anymore is 100% in character as a reaction to her web of lies coming undone.

It even comes with the follow-up that Adrien’s justified anger at her no longer has a target. Adrien is no longer “justified” in being mad at Marinette, because Marinette can’t remember doing that, so holding her responsible would be unfair and mean. Adrien has to, once again, be the bigger person and let his hurt go to help Marinette.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

I can vent here, right?

Even when I love canon love square I always thought they kinda toxic in season 1-3. I thought they would be healthier after they know each other identity.

Now after season 4-5, I haven't watched season 6 yet only seeing people talk about it in YouTube and Tumblr, I couldn't help but dreading the reveal because it more than likely Maribug end up treating Adrichat worse than she is now in and outside of mask.

Like what if she knew Chat is sentimonster and start justify herself to used his amok to control him in battle. Adrien would be none wiser because he didn't know.

Or what if she take Adrien miraculous away and justify it because he kept let himself hurt he couldn't be trusted with it. It for both his wellbeing and greater good she told herself. Nevermind that it was Gabriel fault and she's the one make it worse. Nevermind that it would make him even more isolated. Nevermind that she, as his girlfriend, should have help him realized his self worth instead taking a few agency he had away. Nah, it's too much to ask for her to do bare minimum.

The same with house husband Adrien. I used to think it fun because I thought it would free him from obnoxious schedule and he could do housework on his own pace and better rested but nowadays he probably still overworked and blame himself everytime Marinette doing something stupid.

---

Yeah, it's kinda wild that we’re now at the point where Cat Noir's identity being a secret is actually protecting him from his supposedly loving girlfriend. Because, like, Marinette disassociates between her two lives a lot, and her views on Adrien and Cat Noir are very different.

Adrien: helpless, perfect damsel who must be kept safe and untainted

Cat Noir: useful pet who can be sacrificed with no thought or consequence

This feels like a nightmare, a horror story. If Marinette found out the truth now that she’s gotten into the habit of controlling Adrien, how would she react? Would she take Adrien’s ring away to “protect” him? Would she let him keep it but not let him take part in fights, being little more than the mascot?

So many of her plans rely on sacrificing Cat Noir, or at least his safety, in some shape of form. Would she freeze in the middle of a battle, realizing she can’t use her go-to strategy anymore? Or could she actually dissociate between the different identities her boyfriend has to still treat Cat Noir as Cat Noir and what would that look like to Adrien? Would he be able to see the love leave her girlfriend’s eyes when he transforms, when she suddenly starts looking at him like a sacrifice waiting to be put on the chopping block?

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

Hot take: the special can say however it wants that Marinette is only going anti hero for Adrien's sake, but at this point that reads like such an excuse.

Whatever true good intentions she has are overshadowed by her avoidance tendency looking exactly the same. You can't tell me that 90 percent of this isn't just Marinette doing it for herself again to shield herself from whatever uncomfortable conversation or consequences she might have to face that she can't get out of otherwise.

Marinette didnt even try to find a different solution. Whoever said something against it had to go along with it anyway. She claims that she should have used the wish herself, but clearly nothing was stopping her while she's still Bug Noire. She could have still done it if she actually meant it the way she said it.

Not that i think she should have done it, it's just interesting that she makes it out to be an option of the PAST, when she dead ass has both needed Miraculous on her. Her claiming she should and WOULD have done the noble and pure hearted self sacrifice of herself for Adrien's sake rings weirdly hollow when you realize that she could have easily still done it. So it was merely for show and sympathy-milking. Nathalie didn't had to stop her from making the wish, Marinette just claimed that she should and WOULD have. But there is no proof for it at all. More the opposite.

She didn't ask for an alternate to the global web of lies now either. She didn't ask for assistance for telling Adrien the truth. She didn't even give the Gorilla a heads up that Gabriel is dead so he can comfort Adrien while she breaks the news to him.

Marinette's lies doesn't read like her doing it for ADRIEN, it reads like her slowly stepping into Gabriel's footsteps of claiming he's doing it for Emilie, but in reality he lived out everything else self-serving through that excuse.

This is the thing about the "good intentions", it shouldn't be used as an excuse. At most it should only be used to soften the blow. It's rather bleak to think about, people giving more sympathy to the one who messed up because they had good intentions but giving little to no thought to the one they hurt with their good intentions. It doesn't change what they did. It doesn't unhurt the victim. If the truth ever comes out it would still be hard to trust that person again.

All they deserve for having good intentions is to not be labeled as pure evil. What they did still deserve to be criticized.

This isn't even getting into how often abusers IRL use that same excuse to keep their victims in and how uncomfortable it is to me to see people keep excusing Marinette for the same shit with the same good intentions as a shield. It's concerning to see the parallels, bad enough it's canon she's paralleled with Gabriel and has yet to show where she's gonna break the pattern.

People are not wrong to criticize Marinette, excuses like "good intentions" don't change what she did. And with her guilt gnawing at her, that's proof she knows on some level what she did was wrong. This ain't even her first offense for doing something along the same bad lines either so I can't say any more if she'd do different under different lighter circumstances. Hell, her going straight to lying her ass off to avoid uncomfortable confrontations with Adrien and/or Chat Noir... It's becoming a bad habit she keeps doing. In a lot of those incidents... I have to agree with you she doesn't pause to consider doing something else. Remember, Ephemeral.

Like yeah, you do have a point about her swearing she would've sacrificed herself for a wish yet proceeds not to even try to do it. Yeah, it's not the answer but was there even at least one scene where she's shown to contemplate it? It feels like lip service TBH. Like the many times she supposedly apologized for her shortcomings in S4 but nothing really changed. She just reassured Chat Noir with empty things like "you're still my favorite". For Ladynoir to keep functioning, Chat Noir had to invalidate himself and never expect anything from Ladybug ever again. And she still asks for more consideration for her feelings it's just...

Adrien, dear, I've been friends with someone like that. It sucked the life out of me is how I'd summarize it. Get out while you can. Or maybe you can't anymore. Sigh. I'm gonna cut myself off before this goes too deep into projecting territory. Just saying, if someone did what Marinette does to Adrien to you IRL, you'd understand why people being mad at Marinette aren't hating her for shallow reasons. It's fucked up and some of us can't ignore it.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

Unlike Marinette who actually dined and dashed 😉 sure don't see anyone point that out, instead people just blatantly lie about what Adrien did as a "joke" to distract from Marinette's shitty behaviour

I've never seen a face that said "poor bastard" so loudly

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

Gotta say, shout-out to Marinette stans for pretending as if Lila wasn't right there at the cafe to watch Marinette ditching Adrien and seeing how much that hurt him.

That having been the main purpose of Lila stalking Adrinette should have been obvious - while akumatizing the little girl was a good opportunity to take advantage of - but yall are so busy yelling about how nothing bad and hurtful Marinette does should ever get to matter that you're just ignoring the main villain's involvement right in front of your eyes

Rlly, I gotta give it to yall. You would be such amazing heros. Such morally sound and rationally-thinking priorities. Bravo 👏 no villain could ever get YOU

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

It's interesting, isn't it? Marinette treats Chat Noir like lot of things:

an incompetent random child she's owed to have as mindless minion but whom she doesn't owe to ever actually consider, think about, or help to get better under her 'lead', so she always feels entitled to ask for more and more and to get angry, use, humiliate and disregard him whenever she feels like it or his existence isn't ideally to her convenience in some way (aka 'she's not his nanny but his martyr leader he could never make up for how selfishly he abused')

a pet she's entitled to own for her personal emotional benefit and under whatever bad conditions she prefers for him to be in in her favor, whether he likes it or not, since he's just an animal for her before season 5 and she outright forbids him from running away. Like a pet owner. And she always forces him back with her power over him and then never caring what the problem was because she doesn't like thinking about herself having a flaw that can't be blamed on him not taking care enough of her (Kuro Neko and Kwamis choice).

A pet she can just give to someone else without thinking twice about the pet's perspective cause it's only about the owner's feelings and comfort anyway (100% Hack-San, Marinette just send Alya to Chat as his new owner which is also how Alya initially viewed it. Thankfully, Alya learned within the episode, so in she was to able to tell Marinette in the end that Chat's not a dumb street pet but a person. A revelation Marinette was legitimately caught too off guard by which I'll never get over)

her personal care taker who only exists in this reality for her needs and she doesn't have to give any real emotional support or any other help back when it makes her uncomfortable (which is as good as always). It's an entire unbalanced relationship where she gets showered in emotional labor but she never goes beyond some pretty but empty words that ultimately mean nothing the next time they actually have to mean something (Hack-San, Penalteam). He's even the one who does HER JOB as guardian in their dynamic by being the one to help HER for the 500th time to learn to control her powers (and Alya as Scarabella) while she never once lifted a single finger to support HIM with his powers. Not even when he obviously needed it in season 5.

and her scapegoat she can and will do to whatever she wants to. And she will do so without fail whenever there is a benefit to gain from it and she will excuse it with any blatant lie, weak explanation, toxic double standards, or deceiving action and behavior she can get away with. Then she the puts her need to be understood, validated, and taken care of in front of her actually working on herself as long as he continues never being angry with her ever again for anything ever while always putting HER first which seems to be her main priority by now. Not to be fair, but to just not ever having to face the most basic consequences and work on herself like she constantly demands of him.

Chat Noir is alot, but never a friend and partner because that would require of her to treat him fairly and as an equal. Marinette is COUNTING in their dynamic on the fact that he has "learned his lesson" and he'll never ask of her again to treat him fairly and like an equal. It seems to be her favorite aspect of their entire dynamic at this point. What brings her so much comfort.

That she gets to treat him as anything BUT a real friend and partner and will get rewarded and hailed anyway as the greatest person ever for merely claiming that that's what she treats him as. Or "wishes" she could treat him as despite nothing stopping her at this point besides herself.

Looking at Ladynoir, Marinette has no idea how to be a friend and a partner. Which, in fact, is supported by the rest of her support system, especially Adrien and Luka, but also including Alya.

Alya is the closest person she treats as being her equal and even that bond only really goes one way with Alya doing all the emotional labor and exploration of the Guardians lore, picking up Marinette's slack around everything, dealing with her problems (again, Hack-San and Mr Pigeon 72), and having everything sprung onto her in a moment's notice whenever Marinette needs something while only getting told about the sacrifices she has to do for helping Marinette LATER when it's too late.

Alyanette too is not a healthy dynamic and that's the healthiest relationship Marinette has by FAR.

---

How much Marinette cares about you seems to show in how much she dumps her problems on you, which explains how both Luka and Adrien end up playing therapist for her. The good faith interpretation here is that Marinette trusts Alya, Luka and Adrien more than others, so she can be vulnerable and show her weaknesses to them. The actual reality is that, in addition, she doesn't have to do much, if anything, in return. All three of these people are willing to just give, give and give, and Marinette is free to just take, take and take with maybe a little "thanks" thrown in to show her appreciation. Even Marinette's appreciation is rarely granted to people, considering her response to Cat Noir's help and attempts to help is often to brush it off as unneeded or downright be insulted at the insinuation that she's falling apart when she's falling apart in front of his eyes.

Yeah, for all I said that Alya gets special privileges no one else gets from Marinette, we need to also look at what these privileges mean for Alya. She gets to know Ladybug’s secret identity = she has to provide Marinette with even more emotional support. She gets to see the Miracle Box = She has to help Marinette with her Guardian duties. She gets to be a permanent holder = she has to lie to her boyfriend on Marinette's orders. Alya being let in on the secret led to her life becoming increasingly all about Marinette and helping her with all her burdens.

In the early seasons, you really got the impression that Alya was doing things even when she wasn't hanging out with Marinette. She had her blog and a boyfriend and she saw her other friends on the regular. Now all we see or hear her do is help Marinette with her various problems, mostly her love life, and then get yelled at when Marinette changes her mind about what kind of help she wants, aka, when Alya justifiably didn't buy her “new feelings” for Cat Noir when she obviously just wanted a Luka 2.0 to pamper her for a bit.

When was the last time Alya talked about her blog in a positive way? I remember when Marinette kept telling her she couldn't post about this or that. Did she have to suspend the blog to reach Marinette's standard of commitment? The writers have all the cast only care about whether or not Marinette gets to kiss Adrien, so it feels like it's been mostly forgotten.

All of Marinette’s relationships are written with Marinette’s comfort as the writers’ primary objective. All interactions are made to be as easy for Marinette as possible when she herself isn't making things harder, with her being instantly forgiven when she does something wrong even when she shows no sign of improving on her behavior because she never intends to hurt anyone, and that’s all that matters. The writers’ number one priority is to make it very clear to the audience that Marinette is the one who feels bad here, and we should really look at things from her perspective.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

It's never been not funny for me whenever people said "Alya now know Ladybug is Marinette, why don't she call out Lila for her lie to be Ladybug's best friends? She should investigate her further!"

The thing is, that lies was harmless. People lie about knowing celebrities everyday, so Lila lying about being Ladybug's best friend isn't as big deal as the fandom want it to be and maybe this is unpopular opinion but I don't think Alya owe Marinette an apology for that and further investigation on Lila just because of one lie is wild. Also, Alya's blog wouldn't lose its credibility just because one false interview. It's a just for fun blog, not an official news report anyway.

Alya believing Lila over Marinette's also make senses because Marinette is someone who most often than not, act based on her own assumption and imagination rather than fact and I don't think people remember that Marinette never tell Alya that she was threatened by Lila in the bathroom, it never shown in canon that she did, at least. So Alya brushed off Marinette' remark about Lila is not because she's a bad friends, it's because she /knows/ what kind of person her best friend is that she doesn't believe in Marinette.

When your best friend is someone who's super possessive of her crush, don't have qualm to take down anyone if they get on her way of her crush, super imaginative and prone to exaggeration, it makes more senses to give benefit of the doubt to a new kid who has done nothing wrong and absent from the class for most of the time, as far as Alya know.

Think again, most of the lies that Lila tell are harmless initially. Helping Jagged cat? Going all around the world with Prince for charity or whatever she said? It's all harmless. Lila's lies starts to be harmful when Marinette pressed her button in the wrong way, she humiliates her both in and out her hero persona. It's not an exaggeration when people said "Lila is the enemies that Marinette create" because it's true. I'm not saying Lila never has any malice in her, she probably is, it just locked inside the Pandora box. One that Marinette pried open.

I mean, no one's like to be humiliated for no apparent reason (as far as she knows) by a superhero in public place nonetheless. and to be honest if I were to be in the same situation as Lila, I would do the same. To get revenge, I mean. Having a crush on a cute boy who happened to be famous isn't a crime, unless you see it from Marinette's POV then yes it's a crime and that person deserve to be humiliated. (They're not)

I'm not saying Lila's is right for lying, there's other method to get attention and affection. But is that worth or make the humiliation justified? None at the slightest. Also harmless lie >>> humiliation.

I could kinda agree with most of this. Its how I interpret Alya's actions around Lila. Why she doesn't denounce her or avoid her despite ONE lie being blatantly disproven (and its among the most harmless ones of the mountain of lies Lila has spouted). Alya not unfriending Lila should not make Alya come off as a bad friend. Especially when Alya knows how Marinette gets around her rivals (Alya was there for the sessions where Marinette actively schemes against Kagami) and how much of a jerk Marinette can come off as in her efforts to disprove Lila (trying to disprove a person's disability and failing makes anyone look like an ablelist jerk tbh). And like, yeah, people sure downplayed how bad the initial humiliation Maribug caused Lila is, gurl literalky went out of her way (Derision rears its ugly head to make this scene worse lmao even if its Lila, this is like inflicting your trauma onto other girls). The retroactive justifications by making Lila turn out to be this evil mean girl horrible eldritch being that has multiple IDs is totally working.

Let us all keep in mind we KNOW Lila is not just a liar but a malicious and unhinged one at that and everyone instory does NOT know that.

The most everyone knows is that Lila "has no control of what she says", word for word, this is how she described her "vague disability" in the episode with sentibug. It isn't the same as admitting to be a pathological liar like almost everyone in the fandom seems to think it is. A generous interpretation is the person will say whatever comes to mind, no filter, right or wrong. They may believe Lila isn't intentionally lying snd is merely telling people what is true to herself. Another interpretation is Alya and the class thinking Lila simply wanted attention and there's no harm giving the mentally disadvantaged girl that. So yeah, I can see why Alya can get defensive of what she sees as a mentally disabled new girl who wants attention. Friendly reminder that Alya was a transferry herself, so it may play into why she was sympathetic towards Lila...

But now I must cut myself off cause I am treading into fanon teritory.

The part that I disagree with is how canon portrays Alya as still BELIEVING wholeheartedly everything Lila says instead of merely going along with it cause she sees Lila as "harmless". Its the vibe I'm getting, that Alya and the others are legit completely duped. No nuances. This is how I think canon is meant to be read as.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

It's never been not funny for me whenever people said "Alya now know Ladybug is Marinette, why don't she call out Lila for her lie to be Ladybug's best friends? She should investigate her further!"

The thing is, that lies was harmless. People lie about knowing celebrities everyday, so Lila lying about being Ladybug's best friend isn't as big deal as the fandom want it to be and maybe this is unpopular opinion but I don't think Alya owe Marinette an apology for that and further investigation on Lila just because of one lie is wild. Also, Alya's blog wouldn't lose its credibility just because one false interview. It's a just for fun blog, not an official news report anyway.

Alya believing Lila over Marinette's also make senses because Marinette is someone who most often than not, act based on her own assumption and imagination rather than fact and I don't think people remember that Marinette never tell Alya that she was threatened by Lila in the bathroom, it never shown in canon that she did, at least. So Alya brushed off Marinette' remark about Lila is not because she's a bad friends, it's because she /knows/ what kind of person her best friend is that she doesn't believe in Marinette.

When your best friend is someone who's super possessive of her crush, don't have qualm to take down anyone if they get on her way of her crush, super imaginative and prone to exaggeration, it makes more senses to give benefit of the doubt to a new kid who has done nothing wrong and absent from the class for most of the time, as far as Alya know.

Think again, most of the lies that Lila tell are harmless initially. Helping Jagged cat? Going all around the world with Prince for charity or whatever she said? It's all harmless. Lila's lies starts to be harmful when Marinette pressed her button in the wrong way, she humiliates her both in and out her hero persona. It's not an exaggeration when people said "Lila is the enemies that Marinette create" because it's true. I'm not saying Lila never has any malice in her, she probably is, it just locked inside the Pandora box. One that Marinette pried open.

I mean, no one's like to be humiliated for no apparent reason (as far as she knows) by a superhero in public place nonetheless. and to be honest if I were to be in the same situation as Lila, I would do the same. To get revenge, I mean. Having a crush on a cute boy who happened to be famous isn't a crime, unless you see it from Marinette's POV then yes it's a crime and that person deserve to be humiliated. (They're not)

I'm not saying Lila's is right for lying, there's other method to get attention and affection. But is that worth or make the humiliation justified? None at the slightest. Also harmless lie >>> humiliation.

I could kinda agree with most of this. Its how I interpret Alya's actions around Lila. Why she doesn't denounce her or avoid her despite ONE lie being blatantly disproven (and its among the most harmless ones of the mountain of lies Lila has spouted). Alya not unfriending Lila should not make Alya come off as a bad friend. Especially when Alya knows how Marinette gets around her rivals (Alya was there for the sessions where Marinette actively schemes against Kagami) and how much of a jerk Marinette can come off as in her efforts to disprove Lila (trying to disprove a person's disability and failing makes anyone look like an ablelist jerk tbh). And like, yeah, people sure downplayed how bad the initial humiliation Maribug caused Lila is, gurl literalky went out of her way (Derision rears its ugly head to make this scene worse lmao even if its Lila, this is like inflicting your trauma onto other girls). The retroactive justifications by making Lila turn out to be this evil mean girl horrible eldritch being that has multiple IDs is totally working.

Let us all keep in mind we KNOW Lila is not just a liar but a malicious and unhinged one at that and everyone instory does NOT know that.

The most everyone knows is that Lila "has no control of what she says", word for word, this is how she described her "vague disability" in the episode with sentibug. It isn't the same as admitting to be a pathological liar like almost everyone in the fandom seems to think it is. A generous interpretation is the person will say whatever comes to mind, no filter, right or wrong. They may believe Lila isn't intentionally lying snd is merely telling people what is true to herself. Another interpretation is Alya and the class thinking Lila simply wanted attention and there's no harm giving the mentally disadvantaged girl that. So yeah, I can see why Alya can get defensive of what she sees as a mentally disabled new girl who wants attention. Friendly reminder that Alya was a transferry herself, so it may play into why she was sympathetic towards Lila...

But now I must cut myself off cause I am treading into fanon teritory.

The part that I disagree with is how canon portrays Alya as still BELIEVING wholeheartedly everything Lila says instead of merely going along with it cause she sees Lila as "harmless". Its the vibe I'm getting, that Alya and the others are legit completely duped. No nuances. This is how I think canon is meant to be read as.

[rampagingthoughtsofhope]

I saw someone refer to the fics that came out where Chat finds out about Ladybug telling Alya her identity in Gang of Secrets and gets upset about it as "saltfics" and... I guess? You could consider any of the "Adrien finds out that Ladybug lied about how Gabriel died and/or that he's a sentimonster and she didn't tell him and gets upset about it" fics to be saltfics as well, if you're defining saltfics to mean "any fic that criticizes a character's actions." Which WAS what it was taken to mean when it first started being used.

Thing is, when I use it, that's not what I mean? Just to be clear, criticizing and analyzing a character's actions, and even being negative towards them as a result, is generally okay in my book. When I say that I hate saltfics, I'm more talking about Ron the Death Eater stuff.

Like for me, what I have a problem with is more fics that

A. Criticize characters for shit they never did. Like having Alya ostracize Marinette, outright try to bully her, fics that make Adrien tell Marinette not to make a scene even when Lila's clearly maliciously, intentionally hurting Marinette right in front of him (as opposed to that possibly being just collateral damage of a non-malicious lie), stuff that didn't canonically happen, you know?

B. Inflict disproportionate retribution for things the characters did, whether it's canonical or not. A fic may only be criticizing Alya for asking for evidence that Lila's a liar or is at fault for something before jumping to conclusions, but if Marinette's response to that reasonable request is to cut off her friendship and revoke her miraculous, then that's still very salty.

But yeah. The vast majority of "Adrien gets upset with Ladybug for hiding things from him" fics don't qualify as saltfics by my own personal metric, because most of them are only faulting Ladybug for things she actually canonically did, and usually have a pretty proportionate response - especially for season 5 aftermath fics. Lying about to your boyfriend about how his father died, what kind of person he was, and not telling him he's a sentimonster IS fair reason to be angry.

I generally like fics to still have them make up, but I don't like putting those fics on the same level as the "Alya leads the class in beating up Marinette and yelling insults at her while Adrien just ignores her cries for help even while she's being physically hurt" fics, they're on such WILDLY different levels that it's comical.