#marinette critical

[familyagrestefanblog]

You know what's so sad about how badly Ladynoir got nuked that it actually turns around to be funny again?

Not only did Marinette telling Chat Noir that she'll never abandon him loose all meaning in season 5 because she left after being told "no" by him once (and she already wanted to leave before Plagg initiated his plan:

I know, its almost like the show is going out of its way to nuke Ladynoir) and proceeded to not think about making sure it's at least Scarabella again who Chat Noir will be meeting after last episode to try and prevent the same "new Ladybug" disaster she said she was sorry for from happening again. And who has to tell him the bad news that this time Ladybug left for good and that it was him saying "no" that caused it.

So exactly all the problems with Hack-San again just for real and WORSE, and even the fear he was talking about at the end - that one day it wouldn't be her and he'll never see her again.

It is incredibly difficult for me to be upset with Adrien for leaving bc of all this. Even if I want to. Marinette's side is just so much worse again

But, no. That's not it!

Even the one and only tini-tiny thing she actually DID manage to remember him for while she threw the darkest red-alert situation at him in "Hack-San", it still ended up ringing pretty much hollow by the end of season 5.

I swear, not a single Ladynoir excuse for Marinette in "Hack-San" is in any way holding up. It's insane.

Cause not ONCE in all of season 4 and 5 does Marinette as Ladybug laugh at anything Chat Noir says. She straight up acknowledged it towards Alya that it makes him happy and she seriously never once does.

That is... genuinely sad. Not sad as in pathetic, just deeply saddening.

And even the few times when civilian Marinette laughs with Chat Noir, I can't remember it ever being at his jokes. It happens when other civilians are bothered by them in the cinema in "Glaciator 2" and in "Elation" when she's having fun at the date in general and later when Adrien tries to be silly while explaining something and then Marinette laughs at Chat being frustrated at himself for not being able to put what he wants to say into words.

But all of these cases are not her laughing at his jokes the way she literally said she knows makes him happy. So she's still not doing it.

Wait, no. When Marichat get the ice cream in "Elation". At least thats a moment where Marinette actively laughs at a joke Chat made. Although, she revealed in "Hack-San" that she would do so, too, even if she didn't think it's funny at all and that unfortunately does leave a very sour taste in my mouth:

Person B being the only one who genuinely laughs at person A's jokes is such a popular trope for a reason and it stings knowing that even that doesn't truly apply here.

The trope was ironically recycled into Adrien thinking Marinette's behavior is funny which he then in season 5 got shamed for by the narrative when he then found out that he was laughing at her trauma responses and he beats himself up for it (what a weird writing decision, honestly)

But Marinette as Ladybug for some reason just continued to be written to not laugh to make Chat Noir happy (even when she was oh so in love with him in the beginning of season 5) and that puts the genuineness of the rare times she does into question bc Marinette is apparently just willing to fake it every blue moon.

But I guess, credit where credit is due. She did indeed do the thing she said she knows makes Chat Noir happy ONE TIME in 52 episodes. Only as civilian, though. And mind you, she left the next episode and previously said that her laughing doesn't mean she actually thinks he's funny.

But one questionable time is better than non, right ?

[shysublimecoffee]

It's crucial to emphasize that intentions alone are insufficient; actions play a pivotal role. Unfortunately, Marinette in seasons 4 and 5 failed to grasp this lesson. While her noble intentions are commendable, the series illustrates the repercussions of neglecting the importance of one's actions. Despite her professed love for Adrien/Chat Noir, her missteps in her partnership and the finale, particularly her decision to gaslight her love interest about his father being a hero, are significant.

The writers' tendency to downplay her actions and portray her as a white knight savior for Adrien is cute but troubling, considering her lack of control or involvement in his family affairs. The episode "Ephemeral" stands out to me as an irredeemable moment marked by lies. Despite fandom attempts to justify her behavior, the stark reality remains. Marinette, now diverging from her initial likable qualities, falls short when compared to strong female characters from shows like early Winx Club, Totally Spies, and Lolirock. She now mirrors Master Fu's approach closely, but the expectations in the fandom are disappointingly low when it comes to understanding her partner. She's quick to suspect him of hiding something, yet when the tables turn, excuses abound. Despite being a guardian and team leader, there's a tendency among fans to overlook her actions. True feminism and leadership involves inspiring others and supporting those in need, yet she doesn't even try in these aspects.

The recurring theme of Marinette's mistakes, coupled with her lack of evident growth, raises questions about the character's development. The fact that she is 14 intensifies the concern about the lessons being imparted to the show's target demographic. Despite fan theories, the internalized lessons seem questionable, especially for young viewers who are placed in situations like Adrien or Chloe, what do they learn? From what I got from the show... the narrative casting Adrien as the virtuous victim and Chloe as the villainous victim is disgraceful. The notion that personal growth and change are unattainable is a lesson that no one should adopt is messed up. Now looking back critically examining the show, instances where Marinette defends or apologizes for Audrey or Gabriel's abusive actions which are very troubling makes a lot of sense because this show is abuse apologist and because she's our titular character she's the voicebox of the show "messaging" . While some viewers may sympathize and defend her based on their long-term attachment to me the show having the potential negative impact on the younger audience cannot be ignored.

The disappointment of those deeply invested in the series is understandable, but for those with a more detached perspective you might feel fortunate like I do to have a more detached perspective on this front.

[miraculous-ladybug-confessions]

Marinette is so creepy/obsessive over Adrien. Please, get a hobby. It’s so uncomfortable to watch.

[western-magical-girl-confessions]

“I feel like Marinette should've been stripped of the Ladybug miraculous tbh (Or at least have someone reel her in and give her a dose of reality).”

[ninafelina]

Is Marinette an angel or an imp in a skirt? Or maybe Lila was right? The imperfect protagonist and why this makes it even more interesting. As a rule, when creating the main character, the author makes him an ideal and role model.

In the case of our favorite show, everything is completely different. The author creates a heroine with many flaws, and her behavior is not always an example to follow. At first glance, Marinette really gives the impression of a sweet and fragile girl in need of protection and help. So, Marinette, having set herself the goal of getting Adrien, was even ready to make peace with Chloe and leave Lila alone. But Adrian idealizes everyone too much and later comes face to face with the bitter truth.

In episode (516 “Protection”), Lila opens Kagami’s eyes, hinting to her that Marinette is not as innocent as she wants everyone to think and that she is taking advantage of her weakness to force everyone around her to help her. Is Lila really that wrong?

Literally right away in this episode, if you noticed, Marinette makes puppy dog ​​eyes and pretends to be fragile and defenseless.

And in episode (518 “Emotion”), she not only showed up to the event uninvited under someone else’s name, but also took the first dance with the king of the evening, knowing that Kagami still has feelings for Adrien. She had a sarcastic conversation with Chloe and pushed the guests away.

There are three characters in this series with similar personalities. In the next season, these three characters will not find out which of them is stronger, it will be a battle of wits!

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Keep hearing people say maribug keep asking adricat if he's ok and he keep saying he's ok instead of telling her his problem but I don't remember it happened more than once in s4 in Rockettear but even then the circumstances of that episode did warrant the "nothing" answer he gave her unless he want to tell her that "nino tell me you let nino and alya know each other identity" which will reveal adricat identity. So when else did she ask? about the thing in hack-san, I think another credit goes to alya since she's the one who bring the topic to maribug who seems to be blissfully unaware that her leaving without telling adeicat that she send subtitute would be a problem.

I didn't get into this side of things in my other post because it was long and I wanted to focus on why Chat Noir's behavior was so frustrating, but this ask brings up the other big reason why the season four conflict was such a frustrating and terribly written plot line. Specifically, the part of your ask where you point out that Maribug seems blissfully unaware that her actions are having a negative impact on Chat Noir until someone points it out to her.

Yes, she is presented as blissfully unaware of this and every other interpersonal conflict we're given in season four. Your ask treats this as a failing on Maribug's part as if she should have obviously realized that she was in the wrong, but that's the whole problem. Telling kids - telling anyone really - that they should just magically know what others need is a frankly terrible life lesson as that's just not how the world works. You cannot just assume that everyone will have the same view of the world as you do and instantly pick up on the same issues as you do. That is the path to easily avoidable frustration and conflict. It also teaches people to assume that their view of the world is inherently correct when that is rarely the case. We often don't know the whole story and the other person's point of view may end up being equally or even more valid. This issue is extremely present in season four as Marinette has legitimate reasons to behave the way she does, which I'll get into in a bit.

If Marinette were written as feeling guilty about how she was treating Chat Noir, then this would be a different story. She'd be way more in the wrong and would shoulder a much greater portion of the blame. But as is? She has no idea that she's doing anything wrong. And until someone takes the time to tell her that her actions are causing harm, she is going to continue causing harm because she has no idea that she's causing harm.

In fact, I'd argue that the Alya thing in Hack San is a point in Maribug's favor. Throughout the episode, we see Marinette sending Alya messages on ways to be a good partner to Chat Noir, proving that she does in fact care about him. And then, as soon as Alya says, "You need to talk to Chat Noir," what does Maribug do?

She goes and talks to Chat Noir, giving him a pretty good apology for the problem she now knows she caused. Because, shockingly, Maribug doesn't actually want to hurt her partner. She also clearly cares about his feelings, making me want to take the season four conflict and tear it into itty bitty pieces because what is the conflict even supposed to be when you write shit like this?

I want to briefly step away from Miraculous and talk about this issue in a broader context via this YouTube short:

This short is from a Vietnamese woman who moved to Germany. Her YouTube channel is about her experiences there, including things like the short above which goes into the differences between what it means to be a dinner guest in Vietnam and what it means to be a dinner guest in Germany. In Vietnam, it's apparently standard for the guests to cook dinner with you where as, in Germany, you're expected to have the meal ready when the guests arrive, making this a situation where it's super easy to come across as rude just by doing what you think is normal.

Society is relatively aware that these types of culture clashes are a thing, but you don't have to be from different cultures to have these types of situations. Every person has their own unique needs and ideas of what "normal" is. The culture they were raised in will affect this, but so will their family, their personal needs, and many other factors. Two people can be raised on the same street and wind up with wildly different world views even though they supposedly share a culture. This is extra true when you add in compounding factors like neurodiversity, which is why it's an exercise in futility to say, "But Maribug should have realized..."

Well, she clearly didn't. And you can't change that she didn't realize whatever you're mad about. All you can do is have someone tell her what she's doing wrong. If she then continues the behavior, go ahead and judge away. But if she immediately corrects it like she did in Hack San? Doesn't that just prove that she truly didn't know that Chat Noir was hurting and would have probably fixed all of his problems if someone just pointed them out to her?

This is only exacerbated by the fact that Marinette's behavior in season four is largely unchanged from her behavior in previous seasons. The only major change is that she revealed her identity to Alya, but as soon as that's pointed out as a problem, she course corrects with an apology. After that, she thinks that everything is okay because why wouldn't she? Chat Noir said it was fine and everything else has been business as usual.

Bringing temp heroes into help as needed? That's been going on since season two. Having these additional members has been vital in multiple battles and there have been plenty of times where Chat Noir took a background role to the temp hero of the day like in Sapotis, Rena Rouge's season two debut. So why would Maribug suddenly think that this dynamic is a problem when it's been working fine for so long? We even had a whole episode about how Chat Noir was still needed in spite of the new heroes back in season three! Or, at least, I think that was Desperada's message? This show is shockingly bad at giving clear lessons.

Keeping guardian knowledge from Chat Noir? That's also been going on since season two and was even treated as a conflict that supposedly got resolved in the episode Syren which was the episode that ended with Master Fu coming to the mansion to talk to Adrien after everything was over.

When I watched that episode, I assumed this meant that Chat Noir was going to be more involved in things like picking the temp heroes. I actually thought this was how we were going to get Queen Bee because I knew she was going to be a thing, but it made no sense for Marinette to pick Chloe for a miraculous. Of course, I was wrong. Nothing changed after Syren. Chat Noir remained nothing more than the comic relief while Ladybug got all the insider info.

To be clear, I think that was a terrible move writing wise, but it doesn't change the fact that this is what they went with. This is the established dynamic. I can't even say that Alya learning Marinette's secret led to something new. She's just taken Marinette's old role while Marinette has taken on Master Fu's old role. This show loves it's status quo and Chat Noir has been at least tolerant of that status quo since Syren, so it's not surprising that Maribug doesn't register that this is a thing that should change and no one bothers to point it out to her even though she has a mentor in Tikki (and Su Han, I guess?) and a confidant in Alya and a whole slew of Kwamis who could also provide insight if they were allowed to do that sort of thing. (Sass and Wayzz were robbed of mentor roles.) Additional blame goes to Plagg because he should absolutely have told Adrien to talk to Ladybug. What is the point of giving these characters mentors who never mentor? It's aggravating in the extreme.

To circle back to the first part of your ask, outside of Hack San and Rocketear, I don't think there are any times when Ladybug invites feedback from Chat Noir unless you want to give credit to the end of Kuro Neko:

Cat Noir: (lands next to her) I've been a really temperamental kitty, m'lady. I didn't realize how much trouble I'd make for you by giving back my Miraculous. Ladybug: (sits closer to him) Just because I don't need you all the time doesn't mean that I don't need you at all, Cat Noir. No one could ever replace you.

Which isn't Maribug inviting him to tell her what's up, but she is clearly willing to listen to him and reassure him, further backing up my point about this conflict being some of the worst writing I've ever had to suffer through. If Maribug always fixes the issue as soon as she learns about it, you are not writing a situation where she's clearly in the wrong. You are writing an easily solved communication issue where she gets blamed for something she clearly doesn't realize she's doing wrong and it is so frustrating!!! I feel so bad for her. The next episode is Penalteam, btw, which starts the battle with this gem:

Ladybug: (laughs) Nice scare tactics, but it's not gonna work. Cat Noir and I are the best at soccer! Cat Noir: (Whispers to Ladybug) I don't know a thing about soccer M'lady. Maybe it's time to call the real team?

And basically just spends the whole episode making Chat Noir seems like a worthless partner while Maribug tries her best to make him - and everyone else - feel special.

Oh, and the episode before Kuro Neko? Well, it's technically Ephemeral, but that got magically overwritten so let's go one further back and we get to Dearest Family, which ends with this:

Cat Noir: (grabs a golden paper crown on the coffee table) Since I'm the king, (wears the crown on his head) would you be my queen, Ladybug? Ladybug: With pleasure, kitty cat! Tradition is tradition!

Oh yes, these two are in such conflict and Maribug does nothing to validate Chat Noir. He's in pain every episode and she's just totally oblivious to it.

If that was what they wrote, then I'd probably agree that we needed more instances of her asking if Chat Noir was okay. But it's not what they wrote. If you look through the list of season four episodes, you'll find that less than half of them deal with the supposed conflict of the season (by my count, only 8 of the 24 episodes before the final actually showcase the conflict and they are not in a logical order in terms of escalation as I tried to demonstrate above). The rest of the episodes flat out ignore it or even straight up work against the conflict like when Ladybug says this to Chat Noir in Guilttrip: "I probably don't tell you this enough, but I couldn't do this without you. And it'd be a lot less fun too."

Seriously, what even is this season? What is the conflict supposed to be? Because it sure as shit isn't Maribug undervaluing Chat Noir, if memory servers, season four sees her validate him more times than any other season. And it isn't her guiltily hiding things from him like so many fanfics claim because we have multiple points of evidence that prove that she's completely oblivious that there even is a conflict. So what conflict are the writers actually trying to write?

What's even more baffling is that none of this logically leads to the loss at the end of the season:

Maribug's new secrets didn't lead to her downfall. The only reason she lost was because of the secret that's always been there - a fact that's never revealed to her - and a freaking evil twin! So why did it matter that Maribug was keeping secrets? This is made even worse by season five maintaining all of the secrets, once again begging the question of what lesson were we trying to teach here???

Chat Noir wasn't needed for the final fight of the season, Maribug only needed the powers of a few of the temp heroes to win, a baffling ending to a season whose focus was Chat Noir feeling unimportant. You could scrap that conflict entirely and the ending would not change. In fact....

Adrien quitting to be nothing more than a good little boy who obeys his father would have actually saved the world from eventually being rewritten. If you think about it, the season four final actually punishes Adrien for being defiant. So does season five as, if Chat Noir had quit, his father would still be alive. I thought this show was supposed to be a romcom, not a tragedy. Why is Adrien being punished for being a hero? Is this supposed to be karma for lying to Ladybug with the whole Catwalker thing?

This shit is why I say I'm a writing salt, character sugar blog. I can't get mad at the characters when they're in such a nonsense story where things never logically tie together. They all deserve so much better.

None of this is meant to imply that ignorance is a blanket excuse for hurting others. Nor is it meant to imply that you have to forgive someone who hurt you just because they didn't mean to. There's a ton of nuance around these topics. But season four acknowledges none of that nuance while creating a situation that desperately needed nuance because there was no clear right and wrong here. Should Maribug work to be more aware of others feelings? Sure, but that journey can only start after she's made aware of her faults and no one ever points them out to her. Does Chat Noir need to work on clearly communicating his needs? Desperately, but no one is teaching him that lesson so he remains a terrible communicator who suffers in silence. What impressively bad writing.

[unfortunately-a-miraculous-fan]

Chloe's sudden shift in character because Thomas realized they were making her a little too redeemable is SO funny to me. Like:

Season 1: Chloe is a regular, one-dimensional high school bully.

Season 2: Chloe is actually a bit more of a complex person than that, because nobody is pure evil. But she's still definitely an asshole.

Season 3: Chloe is a child who was neglected by her mother and spoiled by her father, making her into the brat she is today. Marinette as Ladybug shows Chloe a bit of kindness that she might not have fully deserved, and Chloe takes those words to heart, working to be a bit better over time. Progress is slow, but not impossible.

Season 4: Chloe is a cartoonishly evil villain who never gave even half a shit about anybody.

Season 5: Chloe just about ruined Marinette's entire life years before the show even started, and is the reason that Marinette stalks Adrien (See? It wasn't creepy after all. Stalking is justified sometimes!). Just trust me, this was definitely the plan from the very beginning.

[nixthelapin]

I think the writers totally missed out on using Alya and Lila as foils for both being foxes, but using the power of illusion and misdirection in very different ways.

Lila: using emotions and threats to set a trap for LB (and CN, but she’s got that personal grudge)

Vs. Alya: using her intelligence/cunning to get out of a trap (and get LB out too)

And just in general being very different people:

Lila’s entire character is that she’s a liar who will do anything to avoid the truth, while Alya is the investigative reporter who uncovers truth.

Lila as someone who hates and is out to get both Marinette and LB vs. Alya who loves and supports both

I just think they could’ve done a lot more with this, especially since they made both girls a fox character, specifically surrounding the Fox Miraculous (I know Lila never had the real one, but she did pretend to for her akumatization)- that’s not nothing!

But nah, instead Alya just becomes brain dead around Lila, believes all her lies without question (no matter how stupid or nonsensical), and doubts everything her best friend tells her when it comes to said lies. Wasted potential.

[stanlunter]

"Adrian and Kagami broke up bc Kagami didn't like silly Adrian, his real personality!"

Litterally Kagami with Adrian:

They really had to turn Kagami into ooc and destroy all her development only to make Adrinette canon, while ladybug/marinette was litterally the one who hated Chat Noire being silly and unserious

[red-balloon12]

I will never stop thinking about how Zoe has a crush on Marinette but she’s also supposed to be Chloe’s replacement.

I don’t think this just meant as the bee holder. I think this meant for a lot of things.

Being Andre’s new daughter, being the star for that movie.

The only thing Zoe hasn’t completely replaced Chloe in is being Adrien’s childhood bf.

So….with all of this being said…

DOES THIS IMPLY THAT CHLOE ACTUALLY MIGHT HAVE HAD A CRUSH ON MARINETTE AND IF CHLOE GOT HER REDEMPTION, WE COULD HAVE SEEN A CONFESSION FROM HER??? I-

This means that Thomas knew about the popular headcanon that Chloe was sapphic and was secretly in love with Marinette/Ladybug. HE TOOK THAT ISH AWAY FROM CHLOE AND GAVE IT TO ZOE-

[familyagrestefanblog]

Clarification I definitely should have done ever since season 4 and the Ladynoir conflict started escalating, but hey, let's just get it out:

There are reasons why I'm harping down so badly on Miraculous' Girlboss feminism and defend Adrien as much as I do.

To get the feminist (in-universe) explaination out of the way first:

I would be lying if I said that I like the direction the show has taken Marinette's character and the story in general. But regarding her specifically I simply have to say that most of my problems with her are how she is written as Ladybug, Guardian, and especially leader & partner. Not in her civilian self. Hence why you won't find that alot on my blog, only when it contributes to the overarching double standards problem from s4 I take issue with.

I simply cant deny it, Ladybug is a kind of leader I just came to not be able to respect alot anymore in how she operates most things bc she doesn't really ever look passed how things look & stand for herself, and what SHE needs & wants. Marinette is a very low empathy person in the sense that she struggles putting herself in other people's positions, or remembers considering that at all.

But that's not the reason why I can't respect her as leader. I have ADD, that would be really hypocritical of me.

What leaves me unable to respect her as leader though (& honestly kinda even wanting Alya to take her position) is the fact that the show doesn't see much wrong with Maribug doing that.

They don't properly depict this as flawed leadership she actually NEEDS to grow out of by making up for her shortcomings by, for example, making other people her official co-leaders. Instead the show since s4 (& kinda s3) will proceed to put it's feminist foot down if Maribug isn't actually in the end 100% correct and "totally girlboss justified" in any given case - with CN & authorities specifically - no matter the context. Ergo she's barely ever truly improving her weakpoints in partnership skills for example & continues doing the same mistakes over n over.

like she genuinely would benefit from having Chat Noir as her co-leader too, not just Rena Rouge. But no. The neurodivergend low-empathy girl can't have a high-empathy boy co-leader bc apparently thats misogynistic now, huh ?

Again, I have ADD and I'm also a woman. In fact, I actually have alot in common with Maribug (hence why it hurt so much once s4 took her away from me), so forgive me when I still say: I am NOT going to lower my standards of my believe that neither of those aspects get to be an excuse on everyone else's expense regarding LEADERSHIP (which I do also am in the position of in my life).

And I repeat: LEADERSHIP. Not Marinette herself as a person necessarily & esp not her civilian life.

People always say that her critics wouldn't be so hard on her if she were a man, but I strongly disagree. In my experience, if Marinette were a boy people would actually draw a line nowadays and call out that Mariano is too stuck in his own head to be a good leader (& partner). And maybe even demand that he shouldn't be in that position anymore either at all or until he's in a better head space.

Bc with male characters people are actually drawing lines now in important factors when it comes to power & the accountability coming with it, bc in the end being in change means it ain't about you

Hence why e. g. Steve Rogers (Captain America) was then a fucking fugitive from the law when shit got real in the MCU. They had to do that bc of his leadership morality not being able to exist well within a corrupted & complex law system under fire and attack. My man's an amazing battle leader, but the MCU did VERY well leaving taking care of all kinds of social & political matters to Tony Stark. This kind of nuance ain't Steve's strength. Marinette & Steve are actually a EXTREMELY similar type of leader and it's interesting that I don't exactly vibe with him too much either in that regard, but like him as person the way I did Marinette. So for me it's definitely an issue with their type of leadership.

But the mainstream female leader characters are often still "too female" to get held to the same regular standards bc telling a female leader character in a complicated and not entirely beneficial situation & position 'yeah, it's sucks but you're not the center of the universe'' is now more often than not still "too mean/ sexist"

again, Steve was made an outlaw for a reason and you can bet if he had been a Stephanie people would have made all her struggles about sexism & called the 'outlaw leader' route after Civil War misogyny, merely bc "society doesnt respect women". This is whats happening with Maribug & it clashes with her leadership style.

Hence why there AREN'T ALOT of mainstream female leader characters. And if we get some, most of them are narratively defined by how powerful & in control they are for THEIR OWN BENEFIT and it being depicted as 100% right & just in general (like with Marinette) which goes against what a normal leader should be, so alot of people don't like them (ignoring the actual sexist people for a sec)

The first Wonder Woman movie for example was so well-received for a reason. They did it RIGHT (& may I please also recommend Wakanda Forever? Fuck, that movie was GOOD)

--

But yes, it's notably how Maribug treats Chat, who is supposed to be her partner and friend, that I take alot of issues with.

And yes, I would say the same if LB were male and CN female. Ladynoir is so rooted in toxic femininity that this "partnership" (or just the entire LS) the way it is could NOT exist today in gender bend. S4 and the s5 finale in particular are unthinkable in gender bend and they sold it as "justified female empowerment" & "unparalleled loving treatment" from Ladybug's side Chat Noir needed to learn to be GRATEFUL for.

All while, and I will never stop stressing this: the show has never stopped writing Marinette to treat Chat Noir as if he basically just spawns into existence once he puts on the mask. He's HALF a human being. Even once she falls in love with him in s5.

This is the fundamental and deep seeded problem of where my issues come from here. It never stands in question if Adrien views Marinette and Ladybug as full human beings, but the other way around that very much is the case. In whatever way it's depicted. Yes this is a line I draw, especially because of the whole Sentihuman thing.

I personally am alot more like Adrien regarding Friendship and partnership (or what his character initially started out). They are heavy & meaningful topics for me. So seeing Marinette being utilized to girlboss all that into the ground with Chat Noir, esp in s4, while she apparently barely ever even noticed anything wrong with how she treats him in the first place as she literally replaced him with Alya/ Rena in everything but name

cause buring him under a wall of secrets & lies meant she can still 100% benefit from his eternal devotion by letting him believe she's too alone to be a partner anymore AT ALL. (Kuro Neko onwards and then NEVER stopped letting him think she's just as alone as he is. NEVER. She's still doing it in s5 while leaving him 100% isolated which was then his demise in the s5 finale.)

and gives Alya the deluxe partnership entirely on his expense, while barely ever sparing him even the most basic thought in anything; & by "Risk" then literally having them switch status. Rena is her actual partner she fully treats that way and he's merely her favorite temp hero with no rights, which Rena was previously.

And the only reason why Chat was treated with something resembling to fairness or dignity again in season 5 (& finally wasn't a rag doll for her every little mood anymore...) was because Maribug plainly had no other choice and had her team & position of power taken away by force while Alya renounced for her own safety. And yet she's still treating him as half a human being even by the end of S5. AFTER her character development. He's Chat Noir and that's where his existence ends in her leadership & friendship. CN and Alya in s5 are literally 2 halves of ONE PARTNER.

All that was painful to watch to say the least. Bc it's imo honestly a disgrace to friendship and partnership. I can't put into words how ashamed I would be of myself if I treated someone the way Marinette treats Chat Noir (again, HALF A HUMAN BEING).

Much less a friend I claim to love dearly and don't want to loose (another thing the MCU did better regarding Steve's fall-out with Tony over Bucky... I should really make that comparison post why Steve works for me & Marinette doesnt)

Just the mere fact that Marinette in "Elation" even told Chat "It doesn't matter who's underneath your mask" is honestly outrageous.

Because thats simply what it is for me. If s4 & 5 Marinette were portrayed from a similar morality angle to Emonette in the Paris special I would have much less issues with her. Cause thats ironically an angle female characters barely get & is mostly used to redeem the broken bad boys with a hidden heart of gold™.

Double irony: s1-s3 actually DID put civilian Marinette often into that angle, hence why I really liked her, but then s4 suddenly said "well, her methods & actions really dont matter. She's wrong, but actually not really; ergo she should get rewarded in the end. Always. But with a few exceptions. Here n there she loses to claim otherwise. But actually the world just needs to learn how right & amazing she is."

She makes countless mistakes but often either doesn't really learn from them anymore or they just don't "count" bc that's 'what makes her quirky & loveable', so having any issues with her now means you hate women. And she's a very flawed leader but actually never did anything wrong. Ever. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I will be VERY blunt now: The moment you put a female character into the leader role the FEMALE aspect is supposed to be of secondary importance. And a leader, by the nature of the position, ALWAYS has to be questioned morally wise in my opinion bc of the fatal blindspots that will automatically occur in every leadership.

And it happened here too: Chat Noir's treatment. But they demanded that her being the (female) leader means she's OWED to treat him badly & gets to keep him as blindspot on HIS expense bc she doesn't like thinking about him existing as civilian person.

A leader is ALWAYS somebody who is NOT going to sit well with everybody regarding their approach. That's a normal instinct, and in fact it would be highly dangerous if that wouldnt happen at all. So if I, or other people, don't respect her as one that simply means she has an opposition the way every leader has & is being held to normal standards a leader should be held to, regardless of gender.

Sorry if you think thats sexist, but in my opinion that's a YOU problem. I personally respect female leaders too much to not acknowledge them as anything else but the potential threats they are. The same way I do with male leaders.

You're leader first, woman second. If you can't handle that get out of the leadership position (yes, oc that also applies the other way around). Feminism was about making sure that women cant be excluded from e. g. position of power just bc we're female. The goal wasn't to have yet another group of people stomp their foots, now claiming that they are OWED power once they wanna have it to feel powerful. But that's what Marinette was used to teach an entire generation of children, especially girls.

The last thing you will EVER get me to do is accept that I should be holding women - specifically for equality, female empowerment and leadership - to LOWER (moral) standards as I would the men in her position.

Buddy, I am NOT gonna fucking do that. Just the thought is pissing me tf off, and has ever since s4, cause it directly plays into the misogynistic thinking of:

"Women can't be given power, status or even too much focus as human beings because they're too irrational and immature to be able to then lay proper priorities & take rightful accountability for their shit like a man in power could; and not just scream and cry while playing the oppressed victim card the moment things don't work out & they aren't being given the special female treatment to let them mostly off the hook consequences wise.

Leading to everyone around them, especially the MEN, having to step up, do the work & basically babysit the women like children - while still having to give her the credit as person in charge - turning the women more or less into toddlers wearing a queen's crown"

Which, by all means, Adrichat in every dynamic of the love square by season 5, Gabriel at the end of "Recreation" and even Luka & Félix (& "thankfully" Alya too since s4) had to do for Maribug in alot of ways.

Pick up all of her slack in several major areas & catering to her while simultaneously having to still give most of the credit to HER or else they would be "mean to the female lead" (it's also telling that Alya is treated the best here, & goodness dont get me started on Su-Han...).

And with that out of the way, a few more meta reasons:

1) I'm NOT watching a damn documentary. Marinette is NOT a 14 year old, she doesnt exist & isnt based on a real person or story. She's a fictional main character and narrative tool, so forgive me for approaching this differently than a real life case.

and 2) in everything I watch I automatically look out for the narrative's blind spots and victims of the writings' favorites. I take it this seriously because this is career related for me.

Hence why I have barely ever liked a main character and ironically Marinette/ Ladybug was once one of the few exceptions (alongside Korra from Legend of Korra and Blitz from Helluva Boss)

Look, when I for example watch Helluva Boss or a Yugioh show I will automatically pay extra attention to how the female characters are being treated bc they are obviously treated worse by the writing and much more neglected and scapegoated than the male characters.

Meanwhile when I watch Miraculous and She-Ra, I do the opposite and pay attention to how the male characters are treated bc now they have the gender-biase against them.

And when I for example watch Avatar the last Airbender or Legend of Korra [and She-Ra, that show is great], then I actually get to be mostly fucking happy for once in my life jfc

I'm not going to elaborate too much more on this because I already named by my main point in the beginning: Chat Noir's - not even Adrien's, I mean CHAT NOIR - sometimes honestly awful treatment being the biggest moral and narrative blind spot of the entire show, and honestly where most of Maribug's problems then are also rooted in. Hence why I started focusing so much on Chat Noir since season 4. I look at the overall narrative and circumstances and look for the blind spots that needs to be solved to get to the core of the problem of this whole mess, to get effective results.

And that was and even by the end remained the fact that Adrichat is treated so badly, scapegoated in every possible way in the name of "feminism" and kicked out of the story where HE is at the core of most everything going on, just so the show can force Maribug into everything, make things about her that have no business being about her

Just so she can then be made to constandly turn around and scream, cry and stress about problems - and go about them in the least effective way - that wouldnt be there in the first place if she wasnt the main character of a story that isnt hers.

Mate, I dont know what to tell you here, but the fact that we are following Marinette Dupain-Cheng ,who has nothing to do with anything besides being the cool action girl, is and will always remain of the of core problems of this show. I WISHED that wasnt the case. But for the love of everything, Kagami would have made so much more sense as the female lead, but no.

Anyway, I will leave it at that now cause I already elaborate much further than I initially wanted to, I just wanted to finally have all this stated.

This Blog is not a full representation of how I lay priorities in (feminist) media in general, my view adjusts to the piece of media I'm watching.

And unfortunately, ever since season 4 Miraculous turned into a full blown extreme case and has only gotten better somewhat recently. So I will continue doing what I always do: focus on the fucking VICTIM whose bad treatment pulls down the whole show's quality, and here that's plain obviously Adrien Agreste/ Chat Noir.

And with all due respect: Die mad about it.

[shysublimecoffee]

I used to have a strong liking for Marinette/Ladybug, as she was my favorite among the cast. Despite some moments in Season 3 that made me question her behavior, I still found enjoyment in the character. The whole stalking aspect, like sniffing Adrien's pillow, reminded me of shows from the 2000s (such as Ed, Edd n Eddy, Chowder, and Total Drama World Tour) that portrayed girls with obsessive tendencies for humor. I understood it was fiction, and it didn't bother me.

While Miraculous Ladybug may be more grounded, I never let Chat Noir's constant flirting or Marinette's stalking behavior bother me because it was part of the show's setup — fiction, after all. However, what did start to bother me was the excessive pandering to Marinette in later seasons. Even when the show hinted she was wrong, it would backtrack a bit and say, "Well, actually, she isn't," which became frustrating.

Seasons 4 and 5 further deepened my dissatisfaction with the direction the writers took Marinette's character arc. The expectation for her to confess was overshadowed by a preference for giving that moment to Adrien. The show seemed to mistreat her character, and now, with the focus heavily on Marinette, it feels like she's always portrayed as right, which has made me indifferent towards her. The balance in character development seems to have shifted, and it's disappointing to see her become increasingly one-dimensional.

[eddo-tensei]

This will never not make me laugh

In case you don't know what this is, this is all the sightings of Socqueline Wang in Season 5. Aside from her debut, she only had like two cameos before her big moment in Derision's flashback where she turned out to be this super important figure in Marinette's life...and then she just disappears from the season altogether after the flashback is over. Right after we find out how she got suspended, she just stops showing up for the rest of the season. She doesn't even appear in the present of the same episode or even cameo in the background in episodes afterwards. She's just gone. It's like after they showed her getting suspended and this epic farewell scene between her and Marinette where she rips off the Majesta speech from Alya (Because why not steal one more thing from Alya?), they just treat it as though she isn't in Paris anymore even though we saw her two episodes ago still helping her friends. All this does is serve to prove that Socqueline's entire character is just to provide tragedy for Marinette's backstory and nothing else. I can't even say this is salt for Socqueline because this feels like the writers throwing her out as soon as she apparently fulfilled her purpose in showing Marinette having a big sad because of mean old Chloe. She doesn't even appear in the background of Revolution in protest of Chloe, which you think she would considering how much she hated Chloe. It's an instance of them just creating a disposable character purely just to prove a point and instead of keeping her in the cast, they just throw her into the bin because she doesn't serve a purpose anymore. More people hate Chloe now and that's all that matters to the writers. Screw actually developing this character who's supposedly a great figure in one of our main character's lives. As far as the writers are concerned, she already fulfilled her purpose in the narrative and that's infuriating to me because of how utterly manipulative it all comes across as.

Is this irrational? Am I too upset at the treatment of what's basically a minor character in this show? You be the judge.

[almacambiondaughterofsaleos]

Vivziepop Is The Female Thomas Astruc

Seriously, these two have so much in common and it's obvious that Vivziepop has gone down the same road as him which is a creator who is overtly sensitive to criticism and reveals themselves to be an immature manchild who snipes back at critics in the worst way possible.

One big thing I noticed is they have hate sink characters who had great potential to be more interesting, but refused to do anything with them because they want to hammer in a theme with them some people are just plain bad but as a result they become really bland villains who come off as just causing misery for the sake of it.

Another thing I noticed both have had dip in qualities after their promising first season. They were given praise in their first season but fans noticed by second season the flaws of the shows, especially when it came to the romance and characterization. Plot premises are repeated to an obnoxious degree and characters get more and more flanderized to the point they almost seem a parody of their first season characterization.

Also the biggest thing that seems to really be an issue is the romance. With Ladybug, romance was always the focus but it's the fact that it strangles the plot makes it a problem. In Helluvaboss, it wasn't originally going to be about romance but just running a business to assassinating people in the living world. Never or less, both romances have shown to get more toxic as they strangle the show from being interesting or bringing any good characterization.

I also think the biggest things against these shows is the fact that they both feel like they have no direction due the poor writing qualities that their creators have. I also think it ties back to them not listening to anything that could improve themselves, but instead double down on trying to look right and as a result looking foolish for their efforts.

[richter10]

[a-flaming-idiot]

My argument for why Marinette should be taller than Adrien and Astruc is a coward!

Marinette being taller just fits her vibe. Like she's meant to be a weird, awkward, clumsy girl. So her being tall and a bit lanky and awkward-looking would fit.

Marinette being tall would make her look a bit more like her parents. She has her mother's general body proportions but has suddenly gained a lot more height like her father.

Another thing for Mari to be bullied for. Middle to Early-High School kids are ruthless and would 100% bully Marinette and ostracize her for being taller than average. At least season 1 and before Chloe would.

Having Marinette bulk up and fill out a bit as Ladybug would both give her a bit more of a disguise, but also make her more imposing as a superhero.

Astruc makes a big thing of female empowerment in this show, so subverting the trope of a small girl and larger boy is a good way to do that.

The target audience of middle school kids, especially girls, will be hitting early puberty and probably getting growth spurts of their own. Which tends to make some girls become notably taller than their peers, even the boys around them. So showing your MC as someone who looks like these girls and showing that Marinette is still lovable and admirable not in spite of her body but because of it, along with very clearly showing being bullied for your body is not right is a good message to send to these kids.

Adrien being smaller than average both makes him less of a typical protagonist, and also can be a subtle reference to the real-life issue of child stars being forcefully underfed to keep the same consistent youthful look even as puberty hits. So even if they don't wanna call it out, it would just be an interesting touch and make Gabriel seem all the more evil.

Chat Noir being the tiny acrobat with Ladybug as the larger and stronger fighter is also similarly subverting tropes and just makes them more distinct rather than them both fighting very similarly besides weapons.

I don't really know. It's just an idea. I don't personally care for heavily subverting tropes just for the pride of subverting them. But I know Astruc does. I just think he wasted the chance for tall Marinette and pocket-sized Adrien.