starstruck-sillies

[starstruck-sillies]

[ * ...That's genuinely so evil what the fuck. Stop trying to punish children for their parent's actions asshat. ]

[ * Are you really suggesting that, instead of I don't know, shutting down those idiotic marches or whatever they do touting the Confederacy as "Southern culture" so they don't spread their nonsense, we literally kidnap children and traumatize them the same way that colonizers did to natives? That's genuinely vile. ]

[ * Also, funny you call it "not bloody", if I remember correctly native children were occasionally snatched from their families violently, and it also ignores the countless children that died in those god awful places. Did you forget about the bodies of native children found at one in Canada? Do you want that to happen with this too? Because you do know if you go with this genocide bullshit, it's pretty much impossible to keep things non-violent. Doing that would hurt thousands of innocent children, all for the sake of punishing people you don't like. ]

[ * You're a colonizer, through and through. Even if it's not against the typical people this rhetoric is used against, it's still the exact same things that colonizers did, and here you are, glorifying the use of it against your enemy. ]

[ * There are ways of limiting the spread of that horrid idea of a so-called "culture" that don't involve harming children just to hurt their parents. You can stand up to the enemy without resorting to genocide. Don't fucking insist that the best way of fixing things is to repeat the worst of history. ]

-Splotch

I generally think genocide is wrong... But people who claim the Confederacy, a short-lived rebellion founded solely to defend the institution of slavery and uphold white supremacy, as their "culture" are making the strongest argument that there might be exactly one instance where a cultural genocide would be acceptable.

There were only two things of value the Confederacy ever contributed. One was eroding America's sympathy for the South so much that Lincoln could get away with freeing their slaves with a pen stroke. The other was sending more than 200000 Confederate traitors to be removed from the gene pool.

[starstruck-sillies]

[ * There's a difference between being against the Confederates and condemning the idea that it's "Southern culture" and wanting to actually commit genocide. ]

[ * No good statement ever starts with "Genocide bad, but-" ]

-Splotch

I generally think genocide is wrong... But people who claim the Confederacy, a short-lived rebellion founded solely to defend the institution of slavery and uphold white supremacy, as their "culture" are making the strongest argument that there might be exactly one instance where a cultural genocide would be acceptable.

There were only two things of value the Confederacy ever contributed. One was eroding America's sympathy for the South so much that Lincoln could get away with freeing their slaves with a pen stroke. The other was sending more than 200000 Confederate traitors to be removed from the gene pool.

[starstruck-sillies]

[ * It annoys me when people say "This syscourse topic is pointless! We settled this already can we move on!" even if it hasn't really been settled and is just one side shutting it down. It's hard to find syscourse topics that truly are pointless in all honesty. ]

[ * Littlescourse brings up the topic of ethical ways for littles to engage with sexual things, as well as how the wider plural community should approach interaction with other's littles. Terms discourse can help both sides understand the importance of certain terms to the other side, as well as finding better ways to use terms, and coming up with new ones that work better. (Yes, discourse around the term "system" can still be helpful and productive, I've had two different, great talks on this topic with others, including a pro endo recently!) Talking about introjects and ethical ways to engage and talk about their sources is important to do. Talking about separation in spaces is important. ]

[ * It can all be helpful if people engage in good faith, and people on all sides can learn a lot from these so-called "pointless" conversations. Brushing these topics off as "resolved" even though that isn't the case isn't stopping unnecessary drama, it's just preventing helpful conversations from happening. Yes, there are sometimes topics that are focused on too much for too long, but that doesn't make them entirely useless either. ]

-Splotch

[starstruck-sillies]

[ * Have you forgotten that this is a family of immigrants, meaning it's entirely possible for them to not have access to the same resources your mom did as a natural citizen? Immigrants are very commonly locked out of getting educational resources, so they wouldn't be able to homeschool effectively. ]

[ * Also, I'd like to note that while homeschooling can work out great, it can also be a way of perpetuating an echo chamber. Parents who can really only trust their own families, particularly if said immigrants have had hard lives and grew up not being able to trust people outside their own families are very much a thing, and can lead to them perpetuating incorrect information and being none the wiser. And before you pull the "But they're choosing to be ignorant" card; that completely ignores how much that kind of thing affects people. How you were raised as a kid has a huge impact on people, and is far from easy to break out of, especially if trauma is involved. You can't just abandon that, especially if you're in a situation where you aren't safe to work on that. ]

[ * This kind of nonsense completely ignores very real, very powerful social pressures, and doing that does nothing but make it harder for us to actually change people's minds. ]

-Splotch

Imagine supporting free education and then ignoring the reasons and opinions of uneducated Trump supporters and hoping they get deported and killed.

My family isn't educated, we couldn't afford it. I hope you're able to look past your privilege of education to see that.

[starstruck-sillies]

[ * I didn't even know there was a heat wave, but that certainly does explain why it's agonizingly hot outside ]

-Splotch

Losers be like

And I'm like

[starstruck-sillies]

[ * Our last post reminded me of a pretty big gripe I have about pro endos that irritates us, and it's the constant "what if"s. ]

[ * Every time, without fail, there's always someone going "but what about this" whenever anyone tries to suggest something in regards to how things should be in system spaces. Constantly bringing up some random, niche gray area, one specific experience that complicates things, one person who wouldn't fit in. And it's so damn exhausting. ]

[ * "But human experiences are complicated" Yes, I know, believe me, I do know that very well. But here's the thing; at a certain point, we kinda have to simplify things. People are so diverse, we can't possibly accommodate everyone. Try as we might, there will always be people who fall through the cracks, people who don't fit in, and people who feel left out. That's just the way things are, and we can't really fix that. So, there comes a point where worrying about every single "what if" causes more problems than it solves. We have to dumb things down sometimes. ]

[ * If we spent all the time worrying about every little thing, about every singular experience, it gets to a point where it's just too complicated to do anything about. There's a point where we're making things way more complicated than they should be, and we end up going "well what's the point of even trying, nothing will ever work out anyway" At some point, everything ends up entirely too complicated for specifics, and too broad to be helpful. We have to simplify things, because if we don't, we end up in an endless loop of making things more and more complicated and nothing gets done. ]

[ * Honestly, at this point it seems less like people trying to make things more accepting, and more like wanting to have a "gotcha" moment. It really feels like people are being intentionally obtuse to excuse certain things and water things down until they mean nothing anymore. It's like some people are trying to make others give up on bothering with it at all. There's a point where pointing out every gray area is just making things complicated for no good reason, and sabotaging things. ]

[ * We need to keep things at least somewhat simple, or nothing will ever get done. Humans are too complex to be able to be accurate with everything. Can we please work on productive changes in system communities instead of shooting down every idea with "what if"s. ]

[ * Edit because I had another thought relating to this and I worded the second to last paragraph poorly. I think a big issue is the fact that pro endos tend to prioritize the more deviant, atypical plural experiences, to the point of neglecting those with more stereotypical and medicalized experiences. Often times, our thoughts are ignored in favor of others with less medicalized experiences. Our input, our ideas, our everything really, is pushed aside to try and make those who have more identity based and "weird" experiences feel more comfortable. In an effort to be more inclusive, we're often pushed out. I've seen this a ton, with people saying that tulpamancers know more about the brain than other types of plurals do. Most of these "what if"s are these more atypical experiences, and mostly talked about in relation to CDD systems being uncomfortable with certain things. Hell, lots of endos, and even singlets, refuse to listen to a word any anti endo CDD system says because they think we're not worth listening to. It really does feel like our experiences aren't nearly as valued, or that people think that we have it "good enough" already and that they can just shove us to the side for someone else. It's frustrating. ]

-Splotch

[starstruck-sillies]

[ * We had a really interesting conversation with someone about this, and it really made us want to talk about it more because it put a big part of our discomfort with endogenics and how they treat CDD systems into words. ]

[ * The question that started this whole thing was "why are people insisting that system is a medical term and should be CDD exclusive?" So we explained our personal view, that while it isn't medical and has a muddied history, the community as a whole started with CDD systems to begin with, and we want at least a few terms related to plurality to be CDD exclusive, with system being one of them. This lead to a super interesting conversation about how endos tend to be a bit obsessed with using all the same terms CDD systems do. ]

[ * One thing we see a lot in pro endo spaces is the insistence that anything CDD systems have, endos should to. Every term, every space, every discussion, all of it, we see a lot of (pro) endos insisting that endos should be involved too. ]

[ * When we made posts talking about our bad experiences with pro endo spaces, we immediately were told we need to include the fact that (pro) endos have bad experiences with anti endo spaces too and that anti endo spaces aren't perfect either, despite that it was one single post on this topic we made that didn't include it. The one time we don't, the point we were trying to get at was ignored because we didn't include (pro) endos in it. An anti endo makes a term specifically for CDD systems only? Endos immediately complain that they aren't included with this. Someone makes a post about CDD experiences? Chances are, an endo ends up making it about them. Someone mentions there needing to be more research into CDDs? Someone else says "Don't forget endos too!!" Someone makes a space for CDD systems only? People complain that endos aren't included. Even people we see saying that it's fine for there to be separate terms and spaces for CDD systems, they later say that they're only okay with spaces being separated by this and such, not CDD and non-CDD. Every time CDD systems do, make, or say something involving their systems, endos tend to insert themselves into the conversation. ]

[ * It's an odd obsession that I've noticed, and it's nice that I'm not the only one that notices it. It really does feel like endos want to seem involved with CDD systems in everything, like they want to seem similar to us in everything. I remember one time we got anons saying that system is "just a word" and that it's "not a problem if endos use it too" which is something I see a lot of (pro) endos saying. Which begs the question, why is it only "just a word" when we want it to be exclusive? If it's "just a word" why are you so obsessed with wanting to use it? ]

[ * They compared it to the situation with cripplepunk. For those that don't know, cripplepunk, also called cpunk (since "cripple" is a slur for the physically disabled) is exclusively for physically disabled people. Meaning that able-bodied ND/mentally disabled people aren't welcomed into cripplepunk spaces, as it's focused on specifically physical disability and the discrimination they face in particular. However, despite there being alternative terms/spaces made specifically for able-bodied ND people to use, eg. neuropunk, madpunk, and autipunk, many still try to get into cripplepunk spaces anyway, insisting it's for them too. While they are disabled too, and deserve spaces to talk about their disability and the ableism they face as a result of it, the ableism that people face does vary depending on whether they're physically or mentally disabled. There are similarities into the abeism both face, like being deemed "broken" or "useless", but there's still differences between them that are important to talk about and acknowledge, and there should be separation of language and spaces for it, while still having plenty of shared language and spaces. ]

[ * This comparison really stuck out to me, and I love it really. It perfectly describes how I feel about this, seeing endos so obsessed with sharing everything with CDD systems, and inserting themselves in everything involving us. It really helped us put into words why we think this obsession is so odd, and I feel like it's not only a very interesting conversation to have, but also an important one. ]

-Splotch

[starstruck-sillies]

Hello!

I'm doing linguistic research about syscourse on tumblr, and I saw a recent post of yours in the syscourse tag mentioning BIID. If you don't mind, could you explain what that is? I'm doing my best to understand all the terms being used so I don't misunderstand anything!

BIID is Body Integrity Identity Disorder, and basically it causes people to believe that they should be missing one more more limbs, or that they should be paralyzed. It causes extreme dysphoria around having functional limbs, and will sometimes drive people to try and amputate their own limbs, though this is rare.

Essentially, it's a disorder around atypical dysphoria, but specifically about physical disability.

-Milkyway

[starstruck-sillies]

do you have any thoughts about the lack of anti endo syscoursers that stick around for more than one post? it feels like there used to be a lot more. speaking of which, what syscourse stance do you think is the most popular and why do you think that it's popular?

It's definitely a bit disheartening to see so few other antis, and it especially sucks to see so many of those few end up being shitty. It's a bit isolating feeling like there's so few like me. It does help that we see many more antis in places outside Tumblr, but it still feels pretty bad seeing so few here on Tumblr that engage with it in good faith.

Honestly I don't really think there is a more popular stance, as far as I can tell, the amount of people in each syscourse stance is about equal over all. sure, there's more pro endos on Tumblr, but there's also lots of antis on Tiktok. It's hard to see if there's any majority in any stance.

-Milkyway

[starstruck-sillies]

Syscourse hasn't had much sillyness lately, so have our stupid orange son that we love very much

The face of a man that doesn't understand how cat doors work and made us tape the door of his new litterbox open because he's dumb. He is the sweetest and most polite little man ever tho so it's fine, I can forgive him for his place in the orange hivemind.

-Milkyway and Xero

[starstruck-sillies]

Trauma isn't an excuse to be shitty to people

You can't just say/do something awful about or to someone and then say it's fine because of your trauma

It's still shitty to do to people

-Xero

[starstruck-sillies]

Would highly recommend drawing your alters, it really helps you get closer with them!!

-Milkyway

not active much here rn due to offline situations + making sure the syscourse discord server runs okay, but let me propose something really important to recovery to syscourse

creative projects. do them together as a system. make it fun. it can be anything. what matters is that art and creation is about sharing and communicating more than it being perfect or looking/sounding good. make it genuine more than perfect.

a lot of recovery advice is "don't do xyz"/"do abc only" and that is often really clinical advice. recovery isn't all something only medication and therapy can manage- you gotta contribute some form of outlets and collaboration. art can be anything and good for that. if your art is chewing up gum and sticking it to a dedicated wooden board when someone new fronts for the first time, or more like drawing them a pfp, go for it

weaponized-div

[starstruck-sillies]

On the topic of BIID;

Yes, BIID and how it can influence systems and plurals alike is important to talk about, as well as atypical dysphoria of all kinds. And I do think the idea of people trying to make headmates to ease this dysphoria should be talked about. But it's also pretty damn obvious that atypical dysphoria isn't the main reason people try it, and also can we maybe not throw atypical dysphoria/BIID under the bus to disprove created plurals?? That's just odd and helps no one.

-Milkyway and Xero

[starstruck-sillies]

EXACTLY, like it's one thing to tell adults all about it, but kids shouldn't be pushed towards something like that, especially as a "replacement for religion". As someone else said, groomer behavior.

-Xero

I really feel uncomfortable with SIW talking about spreading tulpamancy or whatever method of creating systems to little kids, because even without knowing it was possible to do, I intentionally (but unconciously, as is an important distinction with a seven year old who didn't know what dissociation is and wouldn't learn until they were eighteen) dissociated a part of my personality and sense of self from me until it created another entity, and still have to deal with it (and the resulting unknown dissociative disorder) to this day.

It's not something I hate, entirely, but it is notable that even without information on such a thing being possible, I did it, and it did affect my life in a notable way.

I don't think spreading the knowledge of it being a thing you can do as a way to cope with your issues is... great, especially with little kids, and considering the actual harm it has caused me and my relationships... yeah I'm not in favor of the information being spread so a kid can do it on purpose.

Exactly what I'm talking about here.

I have my doubts about created plurals in general, but even if I suspend my disbelief here, it's an awful idea to teach a kid to do that when they have no clue what the long term effects are. Kids can't really make informed choices on something that's going to affect them for the rest of their life.

Regardless of whether it's real or not, teaching tulpamancy, or created plurality as a while, to a kid who has no idea what it truly means and what it can do to you, is a horrible idea that's gonna hurt so many kids who didn't know any better.

-Xero

[starstruck-sillies]

Um. Hi! Strange question. I’m a system (recently confirmed by therapist (symptoms were occurring WAY longer beforehand though) + I’m seeking a dx) and I’d like to go about interacting with system spaces on tumblr, but… my alters & I all have different syscourse stances. I want to respect everyone’s DNI equally, but I’m not entirely sure how to do that (especially since some people say syscourse-neutral DNI as well…)

There probably isn’t a perfect answer to this question, but I trust your judgment quite a bit from lurking on your blog for a while, so I’d appreciate any advice!

Ahhh, it's hard to say honestly. The best way might be to make separate blogs for alters/groups of alters with separate stances, or if possible decide on a collective stance.

Personally we don't have this issue, all of us consider ourselves anti endo, though personal attitude and openness varies between alters, so we don't really know entirely what the best course of action would be. But like I said, you could all decide to consider yourselves collectively unaligned/neutral, or you could make blogs for individual alters, or even have different blogs with certain stances for all alters with that stance!

Just some things I came up with. Good luck anon!

-Milkyway

[starstruck-sillies]

I really feel uncomfortable with SIW talking about spreading tulpamancy or whatever method of creating systems to little kids, because even without knowing it was possible to do, I intentionally (but unconciously, as is an important distinction with a seven year old who didn't know what dissociation is and wouldn't learn until they were eighteen) dissociated a part of my personality and sense of self from me until it created another entity, and still have to deal with it (and the resulting unknown dissociative disorder) to this day.

It's not something I hate, entirely, but it is notable that even without information on such a thing being possible, I did it, and it did affect my life in a notable way.

I don't think spreading the knowledge of it being a thing you can do as a way to cope with your issues is... great, especially with little kids, and considering the actual harm it has caused me and my relationships... yeah I'm not in favor of the information being spread so a kid can do it on purpose.

Exactly what I'm talking about here.

I have my doubts about created plurals in general, but even if I suspend my disbelief here, it's an awful idea to teach a kid to do that when they have no clue what the long term effects are. Kids can't really make informed choices on something that's going to affect them for the rest of their life.

Regardless of whether it's real or not, teaching tulpamancy, or created plurality as a while, to a kid who has no idea what it truly means and what it can do to you, is a horrible idea that's gonna hurt so many kids who didn't know any better.

-Xero

[starstruck-sillies]

Sophie, it's colonialism when you insist that the only way for a religion to stick around is to be aggressive in how it spreads it's beliefs. That is the exact rhetoric that resulted in so called "Christians" forcing their religion on the people they colonized. That rhetoric excuses the erasure of marginalized religions because they "didn't fight back hard enough", which I'd also like to note you refuse to address.

Also, as another stated, telling all this to small children isn't a good idea. I'm not exactly a believer in tulpamancy, I have a lot of doubts about it, but I'll pretend I believe it for a second to make this point because it's a much more useful and tangible concern than "tulpamancy not real don't tell kids it's real"

From what I've heard from created plurals of all kinds, including tulpamancers, this is a very permanent decision. Deciding to create these beings isn't just something you try to see if you like it, which to me makes a lot of sense. If it is possible, it would definitely make the most sense for it to be something you can't just easily leave behind if you get bored or things go poorly. So that really means that it likely wouldn't be a good idea to encourage kids who aren't developed enough to make a big choice like that to give it a shot when they don't fully understand what the consequences are. Kids are impulsive and haven't fully developed reasoning skills yet, so it's best to wait until they're older before introducing the concept to them.

And I agree with the other thing that same person said, saying you hope that kids with (as you implied) abusive families come home from therapy plural is unbelievably shitty. That's like saying you hope a kid in a homophobic household comes out as gay. Not only are you literally wanting to use this plurality you supposedly say is good as a punishment for families that hate that stuff, but ALSO are hoping these kids end up in a much more dangerous situation.

You say tulpamancy should be wide-spread and accepted, while also trying to weaponize it. Make up your mind. Also it's hilarious to watch you completely ignore what part of the shit you said was colonizer rhetoric, and claim it was just something completely fine and normal. As per usual, you never take accountability for the shitty things you say.

-Xero

Some people on this site will really just act like spreading around a healthy psychological practice is colonialism and wanting to pull people away from bigoted far-right religions is fascism, huh?