#(not. don't. unless it to look gay on camera. that's valid)

[thankstothe]

I'm looking...

[storkmuffin]

Do you believe hwa is the only queer member of ateez? i’d love to know your opinion on who + why anyone else is/isnt!

I hope this won't disappoint you too much, but I am going to use this ask to put together thoughts that have been percolating in my head from all the reading I've been doing about Kpop. I may or may not answer the actual question, but we'll see how this goes as I write it out.

Gay people in America and Europe have the right to marriage and explicit laws protecting them against discrimination. Gay people in Korea have none of those things and as a consequence, nobody is out unless they're professionally gay, and these people are TINY in number.

There is a LOT of 4th Gen Kpop Idols' content that is queerbaiting, gay-for-pay, or maybe actually queer, whatever, but if you recall, my thoughts on why I think Hwa in particular is walking the line between being out and not out, but reads to me as queer was based on a bunch of different things he has said and done that seem to me far beyond the usual 'fan service.'

There's something specifically Korean about my reticence to speculate about whether someone is gay or not when they don't seem to be putting it out there above and beyond Fan Service. It has to be cultural, based on what I could find in the nine books I've read to date about Kpop, all written by Koreans from a Korean POV.

Femidology, a compilation of Korean feminist analyses about kpop content, had a whole section about how the overseas audiences definitely reads Boy Idol content as "queer." They use the English term, Queer, 퀴어, to describe this, but explain the reason for why Kpop Boy Idol content in fact is subject to Queer Hegemony like this: KPop is under pressure to prioritize 'new' and 'interesting' types of performance and content, and much of this 'freshness' can be easily mined by breaking free of Regulation Standard masculinity.

These Korean feminist scholars also state, categorically, that Fan Service involving queer-looking performances are de rigueur for Kpop Boy Idols because this is what overseas audiences demand. BoyLove stuff is effective at gathering overseas fans and helping the groups become well known overseas, they write. In short, the unspoken (by the scholars) assumption is very blatantly that BoyLove behavior by Kpop Boy Band members is simply and fully a form of marketing activity, exactly like how they used to have beautiful models in bikinis making come-hither faces at the camera to sell stuff to men. Nobody actually thought that the model was actually getting sexually turned on in real time in those ads, right?

The feminist scholars were ABSOLUTELY SILENT as to whether these Boy Idols engaging in creating BL content as marketing strategies were themselves actually queer, or could be representation for actually queer people in Korea. No comment whatsoever. Zero.

I suspect that to point out actual people who haven't outed themselves to be gay may in fact be prosecutable defamation but I am not in the mood to suddenly do legal research about Korean law right now, so if you care about this, please feel free.

The ethnomusicologist who wrote another book (음악인류학자의 케이팝하기), outlining in agonizing and precise detail about her engagement in fandom of a boyband called AB6IX, wrote a whole section on how she took to buying the same clothes as her Ult in that group because she wanted to break the 'gender norms' of being a woman in Korean society. She even goes so far as to copy out the entire lyrics of a song, "Rose Scent Kiss," that she says foreign sexual minorities have taken to be a 'Pride" song (the word 'gay' and 'queer' are omitted) and stays ENTIRELY SILENT on whether she thinks her Ult is queer, gay, gender-non-conforming, or if she thinks he meant to sing a queer pride song or anything like that. She just reports that foreigners have engaged this way with this song and NO COMMENT AT ALL otherwise, not even to say whether she thinks reading the lyrics that way is valid or if she disagrees.

The scholars who wrote Femidology pointed out that while Kpop has become a political and politicized entity overseas as being on the side of minorities of all types, the Kpop idol culture inside Korea is completely apolitical. They say that this is a source of conflict and friction between 'domestic' and 'overseas' audiences of Kpop, and maybe I'm straddling the borders of that divide right this minute.

Moving away from explicitly or implicitly feminist scholars 'reading' cultural texts, the Kpop industry survey book I read, 케이팝 씬의 순간들, said that Korean fandoms have a tendency to forbear tying controversial or sensitive issues to their fandoms, whereas overseas fans politicized and politically engaged with Kpop from the start. That book said that Kpop companies have never been swift or explicit or clear in addressing any controversies or debates, no matter which type of fan demands it. The survey book about the Kpop industry said that Kpop is a high-context society, and its culture is not to make its positions on anything concrete and obvious. The unspoken reason? Because being rigidly locked into a position makes you less marketable.

Going to tumblr to engage with Ateez fandom, because overseas fandom is much bigger for this group than domestically has been curious with regards to this issue. What I, a Korean woman receiving the content in my native language, see as just a type of dance that Boy Idols do because the overwhelmingly majority straight girl Korean fans want to see them be lovey dovey with someone but not have actual girlfriends, many Western fans seem to read (more than read - insist, and if you don't agree, attack you) as being literal (but covert?) expressions of actual gayness.

What none of the academics do is wonder WHY overseas audiences all want BL performances from Korean Boy popstars. I would ask the question this way - Have Western audience ever accepted and WOULD they ever accept Korean men as hard rock musicians, punk musicians, heavy metal musicians - ultra masculine, way-macho, very loud, high testosterone etc?

I have to ask this because there is a very long history of seeing East Asian men as simply not being as manly, as dominant, as masculine, as heterosexually virile or viable, and as sexual in general as other races of men - black, white, middle eastern, southwest asian. Throwing caution to the wind, I would say that people who want to feminize someone like Wooyoung, and deny his obvious manliness, are uncritically giving into this received racist impulse, and I find them very distasteful for that reason. ... Oh great. I just accused a whole lot of potentially innocent people of perpetuating Orientalist and Colonialist emasculation of East Asian men, OH boy WHAT A PEACEFUL WAY TO START MY WEEKEND.

To answer the actual question asked, if you're still here:

I haven't seen anything beyond what just looks like BL Fan Service by straight boys to me from any other member of Ateez. And I will also say - Seonghwa doesn't engage in this kind of content very much.

There have been instances where the guys (Seonghwa inclusive!) seem to be protesting straightness, but then, as the whole discussion above shows, they can't be out so does it count? Most overseas fans would say no, right?

For example, in their "Fridge" reality content, Yeosang tells a story about being gifted a little drink by an early fan and female classmate in high school. The ones who went to all boys' schools look wistfully jealous and say that they don't have experiences like that. Then Wooyoung says to Seonghwa, But I mean, a boy could've given you one! to which Seonghwa yells, I DON'T WANT THAT!

I have seen San loudly object, once in English and another time in Korean, to gay speculation about him. There's one where a girl told him her boyfriend thinks he's hot, and he gives her a stern look, confirms that it's her boyfriend who says this, and says, Sorry Bro! The Korean content is where Woosan visit an ex Idol or something, an older man, and tell him about the friendship tattoo they got. The man goes, "Wait, the two of you got matching tattoos? Just the two of you?? Uh, that's... strange, you guys!" and makes a face and an uncomfortable mouth sound. San, who has been respectful to the point of mutism so far, turns and yells IT'S NOT ANYTHING LIKE THAT! The caption they put in under him goes WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU IMAGINING?! (the indignation and implied outrage is very clear).

I did wonder what to make of Mingi answering the "Will you marry Yunho oppa?" question once asked of him on a live with, "Marriage between men is not legally possible in Korea," but in the highly specific context of how he speaks to his fans, it's more valid to me to read this as I am straight, and I find your imposing your sexual fantasies about me fucking my best friend who I grew up with disgusting but I can't yell at you because there are 10,000 people on this call that are all recording it and I'm aware as a savvy show biz old hand that this speculation sells tickets and albums rather than a confession that he's going to marry Yunho if gay marriage ever gets legalized in S. Korea.

As I have been saying from the start - I think it's cute and fun for people to think Matz and Woosan are actually in love and dating and being young superstars together on world tour and romancing each other on stage. Do that as much as you want. Lots of Korean girls do it too, as visible in the internet chatter. But as you (hopefully) see, there are a lot of racial and historically informed aspects of this, as well as the strange quirks of Korean popular culture and fan demands, that give me a lot of qualms if I think about it too much.

[jmtorres]

*bangs on pots and pans* marry your friends

the united states (and i think many other countries) as well as lotsa companies incentivize marriage. we get significant tax breaks. we get added to a spouse's health insurance plan at low or no cost. I knew someone who got married to a flight attendant to be able to get free flights.

TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM.

if you have a friend you would live with and would trust to get legally entangled with, and neither of you have any plans to get married for romantic love, then make an appointment at the courthouse (iirc it was like $30?) and get married for assorted financial benefits.

signed, I was gonna marry my spouse eventually anyway but I did it on a week's notice so I could get on their health insurance and keep seeing the same therapist when we moved one county over.

(folks on disability, I see you and acknowledge the system does not benefit your marriages. I'm so sorry)

FAQ

What if we need to get divorced? Check that no-fault divorce is available in your area (it's currently standard in the US, but under attack from Republicans). You can also look into annulment if you never screwed (or are both willing to state you didn't). Fill out the paperwork properly and don't misspell anyone's name and it should be pretty easy in most jurisdictions. If you live somewhere without no-fault divorce, one of you commit adultery on camera and that'll usually do it.

Divorce continued: But what about alimony or community property? ok A) I said someone you trust to get legally entangled with B) idk, write a prenup. you technically don't even need a lawyer for this just a notary. C) community property is like. real estate. not furniture. unless and until you're buying property don't worry about that

Won't people question the validity of the marriage? In my experience, no. Insurance might want to see a copy of the marriage license but no one's going to investigate if you're married the "right way" unless this is like a green card situation which A) I'm not qualified to speak on but B) completely falls under the umbrella of my advice to marry your friends for the systemic benefits imo, it's just more complicated, do your own research

What will my parents think? Do you care? I mean. Look, if they're good parents they'll recognize you're doing what's best for you. And you might be surprised at the family stories that come out about who married who for what (I was certainly surprised about the flights one! That was a cousin). If they're shitty parents who weren't accepting your disinterest in romantic marriage in the first place, fuck 'em. Hey, one of the benefits of marriage is your spouse becomes your closest next of kin if you don't want your parents making decisions first you if say, you get in a car accident! This is one of the reasons we fought so hard for same-sex marriage.

I'm polyamorous I can't marry them all! Yeah nope sorry that's rough. Hopefully you're an even-numbered polycule so you can at least all pair off for the tax breaks.

I'm not gay what if people think I'm gay for marrying my same-sex best friend? Who cares? No homo in 2024 really my guy? But also you don't actually have to tell people if you don't want to, you can just say you're roommates. If someone finds out, you can literally just say "we got married for health insurance" you will be amazed how much people are like "oh. huh. that's really smart actually"

Marriage is a sacred rite! I am fully talking about filing government paperwork and if you are unable to separate that from the rituals of your religion, this advice may not be for you.

What if I actually wanted a fancy ceremony though? I mean, no one's stopping you. Send out invitations and a registry. Get those housewares.

Thanks, Anon!

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