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ladystoneboobs · 2 years

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Family, Duty, (Dis)Honor

so, something i've put way too much thought into is the parallels between two of my fave westerosi fams, houses tully and lannister. it's to the point that i wonder how much was even intentional. like catelyn/cersei are definitely meant as foils and probably jaime/brynden too in their interactions. but was it intentional that every single tully-named* member of the present main line can be considered a foil/mirror with one of the main lannisters? because imho they all can be.

consider:

hoster tully/tywin lannister

both are great lords whose eldest grandsons are rival teenage kings in the war of 5 kings. king robb saved hoster and his castle through his first victories in battle and hoster expressed pride in his most lucid scene on his sickbed. meanwhile king joffrey frustrated his grandfather and tywin felt he was winning joff's war for him.

[Catelyn, to Hoster:] [...] “Riverrun is free again, Father."

Lord Hoster smiled. "I saw. Last night, when it began, I told them … had to see. They carried me to the gatehouse … watched from the battlements. Ah, that was beautiful … the torches came in a wave, I could hear the cries floating across the river … sweet cries … when that siege tower went up, gods … would have died then, and glad, if only I could have seen you children first. Was it your boy who did it? Was it your Robb?"

"Yes," Catelyn said, fiercely proud. -Catelyn XI, aGoT

[Tywin, to Joffrey:] “Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. [...] And any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. When I’ve won your war for you, we will restore the king’s peace and the king’s justice.” -Tyrion VI, aSoS

both lords are compared to kings on the day of their funerals. (although in hoster’s case it’s flattery from a near-stranger newly married into the family, while tywin’s praise came from a close and longtime lannister toady after he had served as power behind the throne to multiple kings.)

[Queen Jeyne, to Cat:]"Lord Hoster looked as noble as a king, my lady," murmured Jeyne. -Catelyn IV, aSoS

[Pycelle, to Jaime:]"I have served six kings, but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king should be." -Jaime I, aFfC

both lords lost their wives in chirdbirth and chose never to remarry, despite having only one surviving son and only one able-bodied son, respectively. hoster's lack of a second marriage to try for another son was likely just as much due to acceptance of catelyn as heiress presumptive after edmure as due to his love for his wife. while tywin's prolonged unmarried status even after his least favorite child became his legal heir could only have been due to his love for joanna and his stubborn refusal to accept jaime's status in the kingsguard.

both lords had brothers who recalled their love for their dead wives and it’s believed they were never the same after losing their ladies.

[Catelyn:]"[...]Once he called me by Mother's name."

"He misses her still," Ser Brynden answered.

.... Lady Minisa Tully had died in childbed, trying to give Lord Hoster a second son. The baby had perished with her, and afterward some of the life had gone out of Father. -Catelyn I & IV, aCoK

[....]Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. [...] “He was not the same man after she[Joanna] died, Imp." his Uncle Gery told him once. "The best part of him died with her." -Tyrion V, aSoS

both lords had brothers they had contentious relationships with. though hoster only had the one sibling, while tywin had 4 total and 2 of them remained loyal admirers. gerion left home and disappeared and we know tywin once froze out genna for half a year when she told him a truth he couldn’t handle, but that’s not as long as hoster and brynden’s voluntary estrangement (while still in the same country) of around ~15 years when the series starts. (perhaps this is down to tywin’s control freak tendencies making it impossible for him to let go of any close kin.)

[Catelyn, thinking about Brynden:] He was Lord Hoster's brother, younger by five years, but the two of them had been at war as far back as Catelyn could remember.

[...]The war had not ended until the day she and Lysa had been wed. It was at their wedding feast that Brynden told his brother he was leaving Riverrun to serve Lysa and her new husband, the Lord of the Eyrie. Lord Hoster had not spoken his brother's name since, from what Edmure told her in his infrequent letters. -Catelyn VI, aGoT

[Genna, to Jaime:]That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. -Jaime V, aFfC

[Tywin’s] relations with his brothers Tygett and Gerion were notoriously stormy. -The World of Ice and Fire: The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

both lords conducted themselves as widowers such that the daughters who idolized them could not believe they ever had a mistress after becoming widowed, despite the evidence of a dead sexual partner right before her eyes in cersei's case.

She could not believe it. Her brother Edmure, yes; it would not have surprised her to learn that Edmure had a dozen natural children. But not her father, not Lord Hoster Tully, never. -Catelyn I, aSoS

My lord father had no use for whores, she thought. After our mother died he never touched a woman. -Cersei I, aFfC

both lords were very ambitious regarding dynastic marriage matches for their offspring, especially their daughters, which led to an attempted match between jaime/lysa.

in both cases their matchmaking ambitions could trump their children's personal feelings or any chance of their happiness: tywin meant to re-marry cersei against her will after she was a widowed mother of 3 and dowager queen in her 30s, while pressuring tyrion--a grown man whose dwarfism made tywin feel he could still treat him like a child--to marry sansa, daughter of an enemy house bound to hate the lannisters, to steal her claim to winterfell, as a replacement for tyrion's rightful claim to casterly rock. after the jaime/lysa match fell through and lysa revealed her pregnancy by petyr baelish, hoster responded by wedding her to jon arryn, a man older than hoster himself.

[Cersei:]"Three children is quite sufficient. I am Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not a brood mare! The Queen Regent!" [Tywin:]"You are my daughter, and will do as I command." [....]You are the queen, Tyrion wanted to tell her. He ought to be begging leave of you.[....]"Since you stand no taller than a boy, I have found it easy to forget that you are in truth a man grown, with all of a man's baser needs. It is past time you were wed." [....]"You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have." -Tyrion III, aSoS

[Catelyn, about Lysa:]Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. -Catelyn I, aSoS

(cont. from above point) their matchmaking ambitions also trumped courtesy to other great houses. tywin was deliberately rude to the unnamed princess of dorne regarding the prospect of a jaime/elia or cersei/oberyn match. and according to tywin, when jaime ruined their plans for a jaime/lysa match, tywin offered tyrion as a replacement and hoster rudely refused. later, hoster basically extorted jon arryn into marrying lysa by threatening to withhold his military forces, even though the ned/cat match should have already tied him to the rebellion, not to mention that one of his own bannermen had been murdered with rickard and brandon stark. (a situation not too unlike walder frey--tywin’s red wedding ally--extorting 2 betrothals from catelyn/robb when he already owed support to his tully overlords or show!tywin forcing a cersei/loras match by threatening to name loras to the kingsguard.)

[Catelyn, to Hoster on his deathbed:]"You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully." Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. -Catelyn I, aSoS

[Tywin, to Tyrion:]"I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter."

So he wed her to Jon Arryn, who was old enough to be her grandfather. Tyrion was more inclined to be thankful than angry, considering what Lysa Arryn had become.

[Oberyn, to Tyrion, about their parents:]"Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you [at a time when Tyrion was not only a dwarf but a dwarf baby expected to die in infancy] instead." -Tyrion III & X, aSoS

both lords committed violations against their children relating to control over their sex lives. hoster effectively poisoned lysa to abort her pregnancy by petyr baelish without her knowledge, partly to facillitate marrying her to a husband old enough to be her grandfather. this may have been the cause of her later reproductive troubles, resulting in multiple miscarriages and stillbirths. as stated, after giving cersei to a husband who physically and sexually abused her, tywin planned to marry her off again, despite her protests. and tywin also organized a gangrape of tyrion's first wife, tysha, for her crime of being a peasant who dared to consort with a lannister, and ordered tyrion to participate. hoster's response to lysa's first pregnancy was sadly but likely typical of what some other lords would do in his place. and at the least, he felt genuine regret about what he did to lysa on his deathbed, especially because of the (perhaps unexpected) amount of bleeding. otoh, tywin's interest in tyrion's sex life was pathological. he never expressed any regrets and likely went to hell still thinking he was right in all his abuses of his children.

[Tyrion to Bronn:]"[....]Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. [....] He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she . . . " The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more." -Tyrion VI, aGoT

[Hoster on his deathbed, to Cat, thinking she was Lysa:] "That stripling . . . wretched boy . . . not speak that name to me, your duty . . . your mother, she would . . . " Lord Hoster cried as a spasm of pain washed over him. "Oh, gods forgive me, forgive me, forgive me.” [....]

"Forgive me . . . the blood . . . oh, please . . . [...] His hand groped for hers. "You'll have others . . . Sweet babes, and trueborn. [...] Forgive me," he said, so softly she could scarcely hear the words . "Tansy . . . blood . . . the blood . . . gods be kind . . . " -Catelyn V, aCoK, & I, aSoS

both lords punished disobedient vassals with a massacre which killed innocents. however, tywin's destruction of the reynes and tarbecks was on a larger and more unprecedented scale than hoster's destruction of villages in the rebellion. the survival of the freys with their continued oath-wavering is proof enough that hoster was never feared nearly as much as tywin was.

Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. -Tyrion III, aSoS

[Notch, a member of the brotherhood without banners and native riverlander:]"This was Lord Goodbrook's village. When Riverrun declared for Robert, Goodbrook stayed loyal to the king, so Lord Tully came down on him with fire and sword. After the Trident, Goodbrook's son made his peace with Robert and Lord Hoster, but that didn't help the dead none." -Arya VIII, aSoS

and both lords had overmighty vassals who resented them and attempted to replace them, though as above noted, those attempts ended very differently, mostly because the freys had tywin’s backing.

[Jaime:] "Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place. My father had the Reynes and the Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey." -Jaime VII, aSoS

brynden tully/jaime lannister

both knights were widely known by a sobriquet, to the point that they are addressed that way more often than by their first names alone. the difference is that the blackfish was able to embrace an epithet originally meant as pejorative, while "kingslayer" is almost always meant as an insult and jaime never stopped being hurt when he was called that instead of jaime.

During one of their louder quarrels, when Catelyn was eight, Lord Hoster had called Brynden "the black goat of the Tully flock." Laughing, Brynden had pointed out that the sigil of their house was a leaping trout, so he ought to be a black fish rather than a black goat, and from that day forward he had taken it as his personal emblem. -Catelyn VI, aGoT

He drew up a yard from Ser Brynden, and inclined his head to the older man. "Kingslayer," said Tully.

That he would make that name the first word from his mouth spoke volumes, but Jaime was resolved to keep his temper. "Blackfish," he responded. -Jaime VI, aFfC

both characters are known for their way with words, brynden's on full display in parley with jaime. both men can also be very stubborn about what they want and believe. the blackfish is known for a give-no-fucks attitude and saying what's on his mind, and though jaime tries to affect a similar attitude he actually has a hellava lot of fucks to give, and often his spoken words hide his true feelings, sometimes even lying to himself.

brynden was very close to the 3 tully siblings growing up, practically another parent more than an uncle. jaime did not have the same relationship with cersei's 3 kids, though he is their bio father as well as uncle. (i've always thought not coming out of the incest closet was the one area where cersei was the more rational twin, but it is a bit hypocritical to fuck jaime right next to her passed-out drunk husband, and yet think an uncle taking an interest in his twin's children when they all live in the same household would be too dangerous.)

Nonetheless, during all those years of Catelyn's girlhood, it had been Brynden the Blackfish to whom Lord Hoster's children had run with their tears and their tales, when Father was too busy and Mother too ill. Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure … and yes, even Petyr Baelish, their father's ward … he had listened to them all patiently, as he listened now, laughing at their triumphs and sympathizing with their childish misfortunes. -Catlelyn VI, aGoT

[Jaime, to Cersei:]"He[Tommen] is my seed. He's never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them." -Jaime IX, aSoS

both men refused the dynastic matches made for them by their lords (elder brother and father, respectively) and still refused to marry anyone else years later. however, while jaime's reasoning in this matter is clear, we are given no specific reason for the blackfish's chosen bachelorhood.

[Hoster, to Cat:]"I told him . . . commanded him. Marry! I was his lord. He knows. My right, to make his match. A good match. A Redwyne. Old House. Sweet girl, pretty . . . freckles . . . Bethany, yes. .... [...] Spit on the girl. The Redwynes. Spit on me. His lord, his brother . . . that Blackfish. I had other offers. Lord Bracken's girl. Walder Frey . . . any of three, he said . . . Has he wed? Anyone? Anyone?" -Catelyn XI, aGoT

Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always.

[Tywin, to Jaime:][...]”You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. .... And it is past time you were wed. [....]"

"NO!" Jaime had heard all that he could stand. -Jaime II & VII, aSoS

both knights made their reputations in rebellions which ended in the death of kings. jaime is infamous for his murder of the mad king during robert's rebellion, while the blackfish is famed for his feats in the war of the ninepenny kings, the last blackfyre rebellion, which saw the death of the last blackfyre pretender. though the would-be king maelys the monstrous was killed by another of jaime's foils, barristan selmy, not brynden. both men are known as formidable fighters and jaime thought that single combat between them would have been quite a fight, if he still had both hands.

.... at that age, no girl interested Jaime half so much as Hoster's famous brother, who had won renown fighting the Ninepenny Kings upon the Stepstones. -Jaime V, aFfC

jaime's served in the kingsguard for over half his life (which strained his relationship with his father), though he broke his oath to aerys through kingslaying and later committed treason against robert with cersei, fully willing to kill him too if the need arose. brynden served his kin in house arryn loyally for ~15 years as knight of the bloody gate, guarding the border of the vale (which put further distance in his relationship with hoster), until he left the post to do his duty to house tully defending riverrun. jaime refused to quit the kingsguard when his maiming gave him an out, and tywin demanded he do his "duty" to house lannister. but he was in effect still serving his most immediate family as the king is his own nephew-son and the queen mother is his twin sister.

both knights serve royal nephews, as grand-uncle and uncle-father, respectively. when they meet at the 2nd siege of riverrun, jaime is under orders from the queen and acting in the name of his 2nd kingly nephew-son, while brynden is still acting in the name of his dead kingly grandnephew under orders to protect his queen. both of them recently lost a teenage royal nephew when each of their kings was murdered at a wedding, and each knightly uncle was miles away during the fatal feast.

neither knight was ever head of their house, but they were both very important war commanders in the riverlands campaigns. brynden was made warden of the southern marches (of the northern kingdom) by robb before the red wedding, holding the tully domains in the place of his liege edmure and in the name of his king, in which capacity he held riverrun under siege until jaime forced edmure to surrender. jaime was twice sent to conquer the riverlands, in the name of his king(s), and on the orders of his liege(s), tywin and cersei.

related to the above, brynden tells jaime that the boredom of the siege was the only reason he met him in their failed parley, with siege-based boredom being the same factor brynden counted on to lure jaime into the trap he planned with robb. despite the dullness of sieges and the fact that brynden would be more likely to defeat one-handed jaime, jaime cannot bait him into a fight the way he himself was tricked during the first siege. even after the surrender, when jaime may have thought he’d avenged his own prior defeat there, he finds out instead that brynden has escaped and will not be captured like jaime was.

both knights used harshly pragmatic tactics in the 2nd siege of riverrun. brynden expelled all “useless mouths” from riverrun and picked the land bare for miles around. jaime achieved a bloodless surrender of riverrun only by making horrific threats to edmure. the difference is jaime’s tactics were more unconventional by the “rules” of war and also more melodramatic. (shooting a baby from a trebuchet has to be one of the most needlessly ott ideas for infanticide possible and could only come from a drama queen like jaime.)

jaime claimed to brynden that it should not matter how robb stark died, yet it seemed he shared brynden's opinion on royally-sanctioned murders when describing the details of rickard’s and brandon's deaths to cat.

"I would have slain Robb Stark in the Whispering Wood, if I could have reached him. Some fools got in my way. Does it matter how the boy perished? He's no less dead, and his kingdom died when he did." -Jaime VI, aFfC

[Jaime:]"[...]Answer me this, Lady Stark-did your Ned ever tell you the manner of his father's death? Or his brother's? [....] After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' "

[....]Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. -Catelyn VII, aCoK

catelyn tully/cersei lannister

lysa tully/cersei lannister

both ladies had secret forbidden loves from childhood who were their first kiss, first sexual experience, and impregnated them. lysa's love was her foster brother, petyr baelish (an inappropriate match because of his lower noble status), who sired her first pregnancy, which was aborted by her father. cersei's lover is an actual blood brother, her twin, jaime, who fathered all three of her children when their affair continued into her marriage.

[Catelyn, about her own and Lysa’s first kisses with Petyr:]How young they all had been—she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager. The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. [....] "He tried to put his tongue in my mouth," Catelyn had confessed to her sister afterward, when they were alone. "He did with me too," Lysa had whispered, shy and breathless. "I liked it." -Catelyn XI, aGoT

[Jaime, about Cersei:]"I can't remember when we first began to kiss. It was innocent at first. Until it wasn't." -Jaime VII, aFfC

both ladies had early sexual experiences where their partner used the name of the woman he actually wanted to be with. for lysa this was her first time with petyr (when he was too drunk to know what was going on), who preferred her sister, catelyn. for cersei, it was her wedding night with robert (who was also drunk but could have at least been aware he'd just been married), who she did not love and who never got over his dead betrothed, lyanna stark.

[Lysa, to Sansa:]"That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep." -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Cersei, to Ned:]"The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." -Eddard XII, aGoT

both ladies were originally intended by their fathers for betrothals which fell through, lysa for handsome knight jaime and cersei for handsome prince rhaegar. instead, they were given as wives to other men as a result of events in robert's rebellion, stuck in unhappy and loveless marriages. lysa was disgusted by her husband, jon arryn, because he was old and missing half his teeth. cersei was disgusted by her husband, king robert, because he was fat and persistently drunk.

[Lysa, to Sansa:]"Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. .... Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . " -Sansa VI, aSoS

[Cersei, recalling sex with Robert:]The wrong man came back from the Trident, the queen would sometimes think as he was plowing her. In the first few years, when he mounted her more often, she would close her eyes and pretend that he was Rhaegar. She could not pretend that he was Jaime; he was too different, too unfamiliar. Even the smell of him was wrong. -Cersei VII, aFfC

both ladies eventually killed their unwanted husbands using wine, for reasons relating to their lovers and their children. lysa poisoned her husband on petyr's advice, motivated by a wish to stop him from sending their son to dragonstone, with a cover story blaming the lannisters for his murder. cersei had her cousin give robert strengthened wine during a hunt so he would be mortally injured in his fight with a boar. she wanted to stop him being told that her children were really jaime's, and the crime was covered up as a hunting accident.

[Lysa, to Petyr:]"[....] You told me to put the tears in Jon's wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said." -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Varys, to Ned:]"Oh, indeed. Cersei gave him[Lancel] the wineskins, and told him it was Robert's favorite vintage." The eunuch shrugged. "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray . . . the forest is the abattoir of the gods. ...." -Eddard XV, aGoT

both ladies then donned performative mourning dress for their murdered husbands. though lysa made use of her dead husband’s own sigil, and cersei used the colors and gemstone associated with rhaegar targaryen, robert’s enemy. (in contrast, mourning dress is never mentioned regarding catelyn, genuinely mourning the husband she loved and did not murder.)

The Lady Lysa wore black silk, with the moon-and-falcon sewn on her breast in pearls. Since she did not look the sort to join the Night's Watch, Tyrion could only imagine that she had decided mourning clothes were appropriate garb for a confession. -Tyrion V, aGoT

All of them were clad in black, she realized with a feeling of dread. Mourning clothes ...

The queen wore a high-collared black silk gown, with a hundred dark red rubies sewn into her bodice, covering her from neck to bosom. They were cut in the shape of teardrops, as if the queen were weeping blood. -Sansa IV, aGoT

both ladies could be quite possessive about their secret lovers, refusing to believe the men could have their attentions turned on another woman (or girl, in sansa's case), despite any evidence to the contrary.

[Lysa, to Sansa:]"[....]You think you can have any man you want because you're young and beautiful. [.... ]But you are mistaken if you think big eyes and strumpet's smiles will win you Petyr. He is mine." She rose to her feet. "They all tried to take him from me. My lord father, my husband, your mother . . . Catelyn most of all...." -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Melara, to Maggy the Frog, in Cersei's memory:]"Will I marry Jaime?" she blurted out. You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now.

[Kevan, to Cersei, about Jaime:]"[....]on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman."

[.... ]Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man's mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. -Cersei VIII, aFfC & I, aDwD

both ladies arranged positions at court for their childhood lovers, so that they could no longer be separated.

[Lysa, to Petyr:]"[....]It was me who got you your first post, who made Jon bring you to court so we could be close to one another." -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Jaime, remembering when Cersei seduced him to join the Kingsguard:]By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest. -Jaime II, aSoS

both ladies disliked their lovers’ facial hair.

Littlefinger stroked his chin, where his beard had been before Lysa had asked him to shave it off. -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Cersei, to Jaime:]”I had hoped that by now you would have grown tired of that wretched beard.” -Jaime III, aFfC

both ladies have young sons who inherit their titles before the age of 10. both act as regents for the boys, but each has an uncle who doubts their fitness to rule.

"A woman can rule as wisely as a man," Catelyn said. [about Lysa]

"The right woman can," her uncle [Brynden] said with a sideways glance. "Make no mistake, Cat. Lysa is not you." -Catelyn VI, aGoT

[Kevan, to Cersei:]"[....] and from what I saw of Joffrey, you are as unfit a mother as you are a ruler." -Cersei II, aFfC

both of the said uncles deserted the ladies, so they could return to the family home, refusing to serve their nieces because of choices they disapproved of.

[Brynden, to Cat, about Lysa:]"[....] I asked your sister for leave to take a thousand seasoned men and ride for Riverrun with all haste. Do you know what she told me? The Vale cannot spare a thousand swords, nor even one, Uncle, she said. [....] Well, I told her she could bloody well find herself a new Knight of the Gate. Black fish or no, I am still a Tully. I shall leave for Riverrun by evenfall." -Catelyn VII, aGoT

[Kevan, to Cersei:]"[....]I will remain and serve His Grace . . .

[ . . .] so long as you name me regent as well as Hand and take yourself back to Casterly Rock.

[....]If you will not yield the regency to me, name me your castellan for Casterly Rock and make either Mathis Rowan or Randyll Tarly the Hand of the King. [...] You may make Moon Boy your Hand for all I care. My brother is dead, woman. I am going to take him home.” -Cersei II, aFfC

related to the above two points, both ladies were seen as unfit mothers and had men close to them who wanted to separate them from their sons, as well as a disapproving sibling. in lysa’s case, this was jon arryn, her husband and father of her only living child who was himself old enough to be her (grand)father. later, her sister catelyn expressed a similar sentiment about the boy’s need for fostering. for cersei it was first her own father, tywin, then later even her brother jaime had the same wish. jaime, who is her children’s true father, and thought of cersei as if they were husband and wife. (uncle kevan also shared tywin’s desire to get cersei away from tommen.) the difference is in the boys themselves and how their mothers influenced them. lysa’s smothering and coddling of sweetrobin left him immature for his age and sharing his mother’s fear of outsiders but he is not vicious or sadistic like joffrey was. (and while cersei encouraged joffrey’s arrogance and cruelty, raising him to rule as a tyrant, tommen is little like his brother. cersei is abusive to tommen but to think the only problem with that is an inevitable joffrey 2.0 result ignores all other factors of influence and the children’s own inclinations.)

She[Cat] glanced at her nephew and sighed. "The boy is utterly without discipline. He will never be strong enough to rule unless he is taken away from his mother for a time."

"His lord father agreed with you," said a voice at her elbow. She turned to behold Maester Colemon, a cup of wine in his hand. "He was planning to send the boy to Dragonstone for fostering, you know … oh, but I'm speaking out of turn." -Catelyn VII, aGoT

[Tywin, to Jaime:]”[...] and I want him[Tommen] away from his mother.”

My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. -Jaime VII, aSoS & VII, aFfC

both ladies were resistant to remarriage, relishing the chance to rule on their own. lysa would only agree to marry petyr, the only man she really wanted to be with, who was finally seen as a fit match for her once he was lord of harrenhal. cersei is determined never to re-marry, as jaime is the only man she really wants, but she knows they'd never be allowed to be together publicly. (and unlike lysa, who willingly gave power to petyr once they married, cersei has no wish to relinquish her power to anyone, including jaime.)

[Brynden, to Cat, about Lysa:]"[....] She swears that this time she will choose her lord husband. [....] it seems to me Lysa is only playing at courtship. She enjoys the sport, but I believe your sister intends to rule herself until her boy is old enough to be Lord of the Eyrie in truth as well as name." -Catelyn VI, aGoT

[Cersei, to Jaime:]"[....] I will not have another husband. You are the only man I want in my bed, ever again. [....] I want to be your wife, we belong to each other, but it can never be, Jaime. We are brother and sister." -Jaime IX, aSoS

both ladies' lovers thought they drank too much, and they also gained weight reflected in their gowns, though cersei is in denial about that.

Her aunt's breath smelled of wine. [....]

[Petyr, to Lysa, as she threatened Sansa and spilled his secrets:]"Have you been at the wine again?" -Sansa VII, aSoS

Petyr had given her his late wife's wardrobe, [....] though the great bulk of it was far too large for her; Lady Lysa had grown very stout during her long succession of pregnancies, stillbirths, and miscarriages. -(Sansa II/)Alayne I, aFfC

[Jaime, watching Cersei:]The queen was in her cups, Jaime realized. Of late, Cersei always seemed to have a flagon of wine to hand.[...] -Jaime II, aFfC

[Cersei:][....] her wretched washerwomen had shrunk several of her old gowns so they no longer fit. -Cersei V, aFfC

both ladies are protective of their young sons to the point of paranoia. lysa, because she lost all her other babies and sweetrobin has always been weak and sickly. cersei, because of a witch's prophecy, which supported her prejudice against tyrion, feelings which increased after her firstborn son was killed right in front of her. both mothers are driven by their paranoia to make threats against their own siblings.

[Cat, recalling her parting with Lysa:]She had offered to take Lord Robert with her, to foster him at Winterfell for a few years. The company of other boys would do him good, she had dared to suggest. Lysa's rage had been frightening to behold. "Sister or no," she had replied, "if you try to steal my son, you will leave by the Moon Door." -Catelyn VIII, aGoT

[Cersei, to Tyrion, after capturing Alayaya:]".... You've been scheming against me since the day you came to King's Landing. You sold Myrcella, stole Tommen, and now you plot to have Joff killed. You want him dead so you can rule through Tommen. [....] If Joff should be killed, however, or if Tommen should fall into the hands of our enemies, your little cunt will die more painfully than you can possibly imagine." -Tyrion XII, aCoK

both ladies had an abortion, the only named characters i can think of who did. (as opposed to the more common moon tea, which appears to be more like a fantasy plan b potion) but lysa's was a forced abortion without her knowledge after she told her father she was pregnant by petyr baelish, the boy she loved (who she also raped). cersei chose to abort a pregnancy by her hated husband, robert (who raped her repeatedly), and the man she wanted to be with, jaime, helped her do so.

[Lysa to Petyr:]"I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me . . ." -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Cersei, to Ned:] "Your Robert got me with child once," she said, her voice thick with contempt. "My brother found a woman to cleanse me." -Eddard XII, aGoT

both mothers used a whipping boy for their young sons, a practice which doesn't seem to be common in westeros.

[Lysa, to Sansa:]"[....] We keep a whipping boy for Robert, as is the custom in the Free Cities." -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Cersei, to Tommen:]"If you lie to me, I will have no choice but to send for Pate and have him beaten till he bleeds." Pate was Tommen's whipping boy, as he had been Joffrey's. -Cersei V, aFfC

both ladies threatened sansa's life when she was in their care and was a prospective daughter-in-law. lysa did so after she saw petyr kiss sansa, and cersei did so during the battle of the blackwater, purely out of spite, so that sansa could not outlive joffrey if he were defeated. (and by the time of lysa’s threats, sansa was outwardly living a bastard’s life as petyr’s natural daughter, alayne stone, without the public protection of her true noble name. years earlier, cersei had made an implied threat against her husband’s actual daughter and actual vale bastard, mya stone.)

[Sansa, to Cersei:]"And if the castle should fall?"

"You'd like that, wouldn't you?" Cersei did not wait for a denial.

[...Cersei, to Sansa:]"I do not mean for him[Stannis] to have us alive. [....] So perhaps you had best pray again, Sansa, and for a different outcome. The Starks will have no joy from the fall of House Lannister, I promise you." -Sansa VI, aCoK

Lysa Arryn was frightening her[Sansa] as much as Queen Cersei ever had.

[.... with Lysa at the moon door:]She tried to wrench free, but her aunt's fingers were digging into her arm like claws. Lysa gave her another shove, and Sansa shrieked. Her left foot broke through a crust of snow and knocked it loose. There was nothing in front of her but empty air, and a waycastle six hundred feet below clinging to the side of the mountain.

[...] As they[Lysa and Littlefinger] hugged, Sansa crawled from the Moon Door on hands and knees and wrapped her arms around the nearest pillar. She could feel her heart pounding. There was snow in her hair and her right shoe was missing. It must have fallen. She shuddered, and hugged the pillar tighter. -Sansa VII, aSoS

both ladies are prone to blaming innocents, while denying the faults of the evildoers they love (2nd husband petyr, and elder son joffrey, respectively). lysa blamed sansa and cat for enticing petyr (yet also blamed cat for rejecting him), while denying petyr's forced kissing of sansa. cersei blames tyrion for their mother's death and blames arya for joff's abuse of sansa, while minimizing joffrey's abuses whenever she can.

[Cersei, to Sansa:]"Joffrey will show you no such devotion, I fear. You could thank your sister for that, if she weren't dead. He's never been able to forget that day on the Trident when you saw her shame him, so he shames you in turn." -Sansa IV, aCoK

[Lysa, to Sansa, after Petyr kissed her:]"It was you, just as I thought. You are as wanton as your mother." -Sansa VII, aSoS

both ladies were victims of patriarchal violations against their bodies but also sexually abused others. lysa first had sex with petyr when he was too drunk to consent and thought she was cat, and she refused to realize the truth of what she'd done. cersei hurt her victims intentionally. she twisted tyrion's penis when he was a baby, and years later tried to re-enact her own marital rapes when having sex with her friend taena.

[Lysa, to Sansa, recalling her first night with Petyr:]"[....] he drank until he passed out at the table. Uncle Brynden carried him up to bed before my father could find him like that." -Sansa VII, aSoS

[Cersei, recalling her marital rapes, then later having sex with Taena:]She wondered what it would feel like to suckle on those breasts, to lay the Myrish woman on her back and push her legs apart and use her as a man would use her, the way Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with hand or mouth. Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. [....] Cersei pinched the nipple now, pulling on it hard, twisting it between her fingers. The Myrish woman gave a gasp of pain. "You're hurting me." [....] She twisted Taena's other nipple too, pulling until the other woman gasped. "I am the queen. I mean to claim my rights.” -Cersei VII, aFfC

both ladies accused tyrion of murder and tried (and failed) to have him executed. lysa had no previous grudge against tyrion and knew he was innocent of killing her husband because she herself was the murderer. cersei wanted tyrion dead for years, and in her prejudice and paranoia, she genuinely believed he murdered joffrey.

lysa was murdered by her lover, petyr, and cersei's lover, jaime, is a possible murderer of her according to a prophecy. cersei would never expect this of the brother she loves, but lysa never saw petyr's betrayal coming either. unlike petyr, who never actually loved lysa, jaime was devoted to cersei for most of their lives. however, his feelings about her have recently changed, at one point dreaming of knocking out her teeth and at another shooting down ilyn payne’s suggestion of murdering cersei only because of tommen. (which would not be an issue if tommen and myrcella predeceased cersei as prophesied.)

just as cat/cersei both had a son murdered at a wedding, lysa/cersei both have a beloved son who was/is victim of a poisoning plot involving petyr baelish. lysa’s death left her son vulnerable to his stepfather’s plan to slowly kill him through the same drugs used to treat his illness, because petyr is now the boy’s regent through his marriage to lysa. meanwhile joffrey’s death left cersei vulnerable to a downward spiral which could end in her own murder after all her children are dead, if the prophecy comes true. unbeknownst to cersei, the poison used to kill joff was provided by petyr and administered by the tyrells, the boy’s kin through his own short-lived marriage.

edmure tully/jaime lannister

both knights are uncle to their boy-kings through their sister. edmure's kingly nephew robb was a better general than he is and is even seen as a military prodigy, like king robert or daeron the young dragon. edmure tried to respect his much younger king even though he also envied robb's glory. jaime had no respect and little, if any, affection for joffrey, despite joff being his own son as well as his nephew. joffrey was better compared to the mad king than his putative father robert or bio dad-uncle jaime, and even though jaime was captured by robb, he was still considered joff's most valuable warrior.

both knights suffered embarrassing early defeats in the war between their families, partly due to their own rashness and glory-seeking--both men are thought to be emotional and shortsighted. jaime caught edmure before his army was fully gathered to defend riverrun, defeating edmure and holding him hostage. then jaime was defeated and captured by robb after ignoring the loss of his scouts and heedlessly chasing after the blackfish, falling into a trap. in jaime's 2nd riverlands campaign he was more careful with scouting, determined never to be caught offguard again. while edmure's victory at the fords may have been a pyrrhic one, the fact that he won suggests he also learned a lesson and made better use of defensive tactics.

[Ned, learning how Edmure had spread his men to defend all the riverlands]And that may be precisely what Lord Tywin wants, Ned thought to himself, to bleed off strength from Riverrun, goad the boy into scattering his swords. His wife's brother was young, and more gallant than wise. -Eddard XI, aGoT

[...]Jaime Lannister, the gilded knight who men said had never learned to wait at all. "The Kingslayer is restless, and quick to anger," her uncle Brynden had told Robb. And he had wagered their lives and their best hope of victory on the truth of what he said. -Catelyn X, aGoT

related to the above point, both knights unwittingly fucked up a plan of their overlord (robb and tywin) by going off on their own without thinking things through, attacking an enemy whom their commanders hoped to lure into the west instead. edmure wasn’t told of robb’s intent to lure lannister forces back into the westerlands until it was too late (and imho there was no need to keep it secret from him), but he should have realized that keeping tywin away from riverrun and harrenhal would either keep him in the rest of the riverlands indefinitely or send him to king’s landing to defend joffrey instead, either of which would just lead to more problems. edmure was likely blinded by his need to avenge his earlier defeat by jaime and a desire to not be outshined by robb. jaime was blinded by anger over tyrion’s capture when he confronted ned in the street, which left ned too injured to go after gregor clegane himself, which is what beric dondarrion surmised tywin expected and wanted as a way to take ned hostage in return (or kill him). jaime was motivated by his love for tyrion, one of his redeeming qualities, but his fuck-up was both more cruel than edmure’s and more stupid because even with no idea of tywin’s plan, it should have been obvious killing ned could endanger tyrion and killing ned’s men just to punish ned didn’t help the lannister side at all. (show!jaime/show!tywin’s first scene with jaime being lectured about his attack on ned gives me similar vibes to edmure getting chewed out for his “folly of the fords”.)

[Brynden, to Edmure:]"When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork," said the Blackfish, "you delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear." -Catelyn II, aSoS

[Harwin, to Arya:]"It was a trap, milady. Lord Tywin sent his Mountain across the Red Fork with fire and sword, hoping to draw your lord father. He planned for Lord Eddard to come west himself to deal with Gregor Clegane. If he had he would have been killed, or taken prisoner and traded for the Imp, who was your lady mother’s captive at the time. Only the Kingslayer never knew Lord Tywin’s plan, and when he heard about his brother’s capture he attacked your father in the streets of King’s Landing. [....] He[Jaime] killed Jory," Harwin agreed, "and your father's leg was broken when his horse fell on him. So Lord Eddard couldn't go west. He sent Lord Beric instead, with twenty of his own men and twenty from Winterfell, me among them. There were others besides. [...] But Gregor was waiting for us at the Mummer's Ford, with men concealed on both banks. [...]” -Arya III, aSoS

edmure tried to defend all his lands and protect all his people, out of a sense of chivalric duty and family honor. when he's not trying to kill children, jaime too tries to protect innocents, also acting from a mix of chivalry and pride.

[Ser Rodrik to Cat, reading Edmure's message:]"[....] He vows to you that he will yield no foot of Tully land without first watering it with Lannister blood."

Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens.

[Catelyn:]"Who are all these folk?"

"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid." -Catelyn VII, aGoT & V, aCoK

[Tyrion, about Tysha:]"Jaime and I were riding back from Lannisport when we heard a scream, and she came running out into the road with two men dogging her heels, shouting threats. My brother unsheathed his sword and went after them [....] Jaime was all in a lather to hunt down the men. It was not often outlaws dared prey on travelers so near to Casterly Rock, and he took it as an insult." -Tyrion VI, aGoT

[Jaime, about Pia:]One of the Mountain's men had tried to rape the girl at Harrenhal, and had seemed honestly perplexed when Jaime commanded Ilyn Payne to take his head off. .... When Ser Ilyn presented Pia with his head, she had smiled through her ruined teeth. -Jaime IV, aFfC

though jaime is outwardly more confident, both knights are insecure about their reputations (edmure as a “floppy fish” and jaime as both a kingslayer and later a disabled knight) and their father's views of them (especially edmure). however, jaime has the more cold-hearted father while he is still known as tywin’s favorite, and edmure is right in thinking his father favored cat.

[Edmure, to Cat:]"Tell Father I have gone to make him proud. [....] I mean to give him better reason than mere birth." -Catelyn VI, aCoK

Jaime wondered whether Lord Tywin had received the goat's demand for ransom, with or without his rotted hand. What is a swordsman worth without his sword hand? Half the gold in Casterly Rock? Three hundred dragons? Or nothing? His father had never been unduly swayed by sentiment. -Jaime VI, aSoS

both knights had a sister and a sibling of their father's (uncle brynden and aunt genna, respectively) who doubted their abilities to act in their father's place.

Catelyn knew that Edmure had a soft heart; sometimes she thought his head was even softer. She loved him for it, yet still . . .

[Brynden, to Edmure, about his pyrrhic victory at the Stone Mill]"Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords." -Catelyn V, aCoK & II, aSoS

[Cersei, to Kevan:]"[....] Jaime is gallant, but a bit of a fool, let us be frank." -Cersei II, aFfC

[Genna, to Jaime:]"You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you." -Jaime V, aFfC

both knights had important ceremonial roles at their father's funerals, which left them uncomfortable. edmure had to light his father's funerary boat but was too emotional to shoot the arrow true, dealing with grief and guilt for not visiting hoster more when he was dying. jaime stood guard over tywin's corpse, attempting to keep vigil for a whole week. he felt no grief but more guilt for his role in tywin's death through freeing tyrion. both men didn't want to accept aid with their tasks, though edmure ended up letting brynden shoot the last arrow to light the boat, and jaime left his vigil to comfort tommen.

both men were admirers of (known hot-headed fool) brandon stark, from what they knew of him in their boyhood. edmure served as brandon's squire in his duel with petyr baelish, and jaime wanted catelyn to know that he liked brandon better than ned.

Her brother had acted as Brandon's squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. -Catelyn VII, aGoT

[Jaime, to Cat:]"Brandon was different from his brother, wasn't he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me." -Catelyn VII, aCoK

both knights were unmarried at the start of the series, and were resistant to the marriages that were arranged for them. however, edmure just wanted to choose his own bride to avoid an ugly wife and did eventually agree to marry a frey for the sake of robb's war effort, while jaime was motivated by his incest with cersei and still remains unwed.

both men were absent from the wedding receptions where their royal nephews were murdered. jaime wondered how edmure could consummate his marriage while robb and cat were being killed, just as cersei tried to guilt-trip jaime by asking why he couldn’t return home in time to help protect joffrey at his wedding.

"You should have come sooner," she[Cersei, to Jaime] murmured, when he took her in his arms. "Why couldn't you have come sooner, to keep him safe? My boy . . .“

[Jaime, to Edmure]"I am told your wife is pretty. She'd have to be, for you to bed her while your sister and your king were being murdered." -Jaime VII, aSoS & VI, aFfC

both men had important emotional scenes while taking a bath. jaime was sharing a bath with brienne when he revealed the full truth about his kingslaying, a bath which ended in embarrassment when jaime passed out and heard brienne calling him kingslayer. edmure was in a bathtub when jaime threatened him into surrendering riverrun, choosing to play up his reputation for villainy as opposed to the more sympathetic side he displayed in his own bath scene. this traumatic bath also ended with humiliation when jaime called in a singer who happened to be the same man to make a song about edmure's "floppy fish".

the conflict between their families is bookended with each man making choices concerning their children which had major consequences. the first overt act was jaime pushing bran stark from a tower, to stop him revealing jaime's incestuous relationship and endangering cersei and all their children. later, edmure surrendered riverrun to save his unborn child (among others), after jaime threatened to fling the baby from a trebuchet as soon as it was born--an upward arc which is the opposite trajectory from the straight downward path edmure's nephew bran took when jaime defenestrated him. this surrender can be said to mark the end of the war between the lannisters and stark-tullys, or so jaime hopes.

*(i say tully-named because cat and lysa’s kids are still half-tully as much as they are, but only robb really has a clear, direct lannister foil in joffrey to the same extent as their mothers do with each other.) the outcast of the lannisters, tyrion, does not have a tully counterpart because other than he and lysa both being abused related to their sex lives, i don’t really see any specific comparison points regarding personality and life circumstances as with his siblings and father. anyways, the point is that the golden twins may project all over the tyrell siblings but i see way more parallels between the tully trout and the lannister lions.

#asoiaf meta #house lannister #house tully #tywin lannister #jaime lannister #brynden tully #hoster tully #cersei lannister #catelyn tully #catelyn stark #edmure tully #lysa tully #this one is super long #longer than i thought #tho i guess i shouldn't be surprised by the length of the lysa/cersei list #Pride of Lions #one fish two fish red fish blue fish #i started this behemoth before posting cat/cersei separately so that's why some quotes are repeated #(c)lsb

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