#I like ralsei but kris and ralsei relationships is interesting to say the least | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

raining-anonymously · 2 years

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Hi hello can I hear your deltarune swap au it sounds very interesting! (also kitten seam is something I didn't know I needed in life)

anon i am [insert phrase with the same sentiment as “kissing you on the mouth” but without the weird connotations]. also everyone needs kitten seam

all right so here’s the basis for those of you who didn’t see the first post:

this is yet another deltarune swap au. i’ve decided to call it “mage from the dark” since the first characters i sketched out in it were seam and ralsei (who are swapped).

seam is a young plush cat (kitten) who lives a lonely life of wishing to be loved like plushies are supposed to be. sure, seam finds ways to pass the time—knitting, sewing, crocheting, collecting things, making tea, practicing magic, failing to learn how to grill—but it’s a dull life. then, finally, the other heroes of light arrive in ruintown: a warrior and a boss monster.

undyne, the warrior, was once eager to prove herself, but has spent her whole life unintentionally intimidating the people she was trying to impress. as a result, she’s embraced this persona, getting into fights and trouble, and often assuming a hostile front. coming face to face with the same childhood friend who abandoned her when something better came along doesn’t help matters, especially since she’s living the comfortable life undyne secretly wishes for. but a part of her still longs to be a hero like in the comic books of deceased writer w.d. gaster…

toriel, the boss monster, is the daughter of schoolteacher mx. kris dreemurr. she’s faced a lot of scorn for being raised by a human (since everyone’s too scared to say that stuff to mx. dreemurr’s face). she found solace in puns, and in her uncle asriel, who she was very close with from their unique shared circumstance of being a boss monster with a human family member. however, kris and asriel had a falling out a couple years back, and he moved out of their house, now working and living in his videogame shop. at least she still has her partner, asgore—but ever since he left for college, toriel’s started to wonder if it’s meant to be. isolated from her peers and doubting her relationships, toriel wished there was someone to tell her what to do, and, well...

it didn’t go as planned.

that’s the main trio, plus hints at some of the others! here’s some other swaps:

the rest of the class is alphys (noelle), mettaton (berdly), papyrus (jockington), carol (mk), sans (catti), maddy (snowy), and napstablook (temmie). there are actual reasons for these decisions, which i will share if pressed.

rudy is swapped with chara, alphys’s godparent and azzy’s best friend, who’s currently in the hospital after a childhood sickness came back.

dess is swapped with goner kid. they’re alphys’s auncle, who disappeared when she was a kid. (this is reminding me how messed up canon noelle’s life is.)

the castle kingdom was once ruled by ralsei, benevolent prince, but after the lightners abandoned the world, he felt he had failed his subjects and stepped down, instead working as an advisor to the new rulers. these were clover, starwalker, mr. society, and jigsaw joe, so as to represent four of the main residents of the kingdom: cards, stickers, chess pieces, and puzzles. (the other groups wisely chose to stay out of the politics.) the starwalker later adopted a ward, after no one wanted to claim a suitless card, who was a young jester named jevil. at first, starwalker attempted to bond with the boy, but its grumpy nature and general lack of motivation made it a somewhat neglectful parent, often handing jevil off to tutorial-maker queen. queen knew what it was to not fit in; although she’d formed an alliance with cards from the spades suit, she never truly belonged among the toys, considering she was a laptop (albeit with child restrictions set on her). as a result, queen tried to be a good mother figure to jevil, and the fact that it got her in the starwalker’s good graces didn’t hurt either—she was always eager to please others.

ralsei didn’t particularly mind his new role—he had a new friend now, after all. lancer, the jack of spades, was hired by clover to be the court party planner, and was known for his salsa, beanies, and hole-digging skills. but after a strange old turtle appeared on the horizon, lancer and ralsei began to drift apart. lancer stopped pestering ralsei to come on motorcycle rides, and to his surprise, ralsei missed those days, terrifying as they had been. and then lancer began to change. his humor got darker yet darker, his pranks became less harmless, his magic grew stronger. then, suddenly, he was back in ralsei’s life like he’d never left—telling him about a new "evil plan.” but unlike previous such plans, this one was frightening and unsettling. lancer spoke of a plan to create a world without a purpose, where everything was meaningless, and then, one day, to suddenly end it all. at first, ralsei laughed it off, but the more lancer spoke of this plan, the more ralsei’s anxiety grew, and the more he suspected his friend wasn’t joking.

and then it got worse.

it really shouldn’t have come as a surprise when the rulers of the land ordered ralsei to lock lancer away... but it was the first time the former prince had truly regretted giving up his power. ralsei won the battle, but was devastated, and not just physically. unable to bear living at the castle any longer, he turned in his resignation and set up a small, peaceful shop, as far away as he could manage. but even so, he could never forget lancer’s words, nor the undeniable truth he had felt in them. and so, quietly, he waited for the world to end.

oh yeah, and then one day a strange knight appeared and the starwalker locked the other rulers in the dungeon and hired queen as the duchess of puzzles, despite her insistence she had no puzzlemaking programs.

meanwhile in the cybere city...

after a lightner accidentally took him away from his home, rouxls kaard has lived a vastly different life. he somehow managed to instate himself as the rouxler of the cybere worlde, because really, what is code but rules? he hired a cd player named k_k as his head butler, and speaker system sweet as his head of security, because the two of them were among the first to treat him with reverence—and to think, back home they’d never even respected him! yeah, he’d show that god damn(it) starwalker what he was made of. for a while, he was a fairly decent ruler—but after the knight came to visit, rouxls’s perspective began to change.

of course, people had problems with this. mainly, a trio of artists: tasque manager, spamton g. spamton, and swatch, or as they liked to call themselves, tasque spam’n swatch. the three of them attempted to start a rebellion. it has decidedly not been working, but heck, they’re dedicated!

(yes, cap’n is spamton. i’m still working out the details with that—and trying to figure out what berdly’s version of neo would be.)

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starlitskvader · 1 year

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susie deltarune for the character meme 🥺

First impression

curiosity mainly! Like, I had my doubts there'd be an Evil character, but I was wondering where it was going.

Impression now

OKAY SO I did have my concerns. I have mixed feelings about the Sympathetic Bully trend we've been having; done poorly it very easily devolves into 'the bully is Sad™️and that matters more than the suffering of their victims' - that is, their role in the cycle tends to be glossed over, like any problems they have is an excuse that negates any wrongdoing. Susie, though, is an example of this done right; we get hints of why she is how she is without papering over wrongdoing, and her struggles with anger and lashing out are taken quite seriously even as her friends take steps to work with her and help! It's really interesting, and I can't wait to see how she grows as we go.

Favorite moment

hell yeah girl

Idea for a story

I want her to get REALLY CONFIDENT about baking after hanging around with Tori a little, and leave a trail of destruction through various Light and Dark World kitchens as she bakes for her friends.

Unpopular opinion

I don't know if it'd be unpopular! But I think at least some of her resentment that the delinquency springs from is jealousy over how easily people like Berdly at least SEEM to move through life.

Favorite relationship

Oh this is HARD. She's really good with Kris - I like their nonjudgmental camaraderie and shared weirdness. She's really good with Ralsei when they get some quality time in Chapter Two - I love their weird friendship and how they relate to each other. And of course the whole deal with Noelle is cute. But... I have to say Lancer. The way just hanging around with him opens her up, and their sibling bond that grows out of that, is delightful.

Favorite headcanon

She loves those chalky grocery store cookies. They're just a little soft for her tastes.

#ask meme #thanks for asking!

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lancerious · 1 year

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I know your not big on shipping, so I wanted to ask,

What are your favorite strictly platonic relationships in UTDR?(besides Lancer and Susie obvs)

Ooooh, this is an interesting question! I haven't thought too much about it, but there are some platonic relationships I do like. These aren't in any particular order :P.

First is Susie and Kris! I really like seeing Kris and Susie slowly bond together over time. At the beginning of the game, Susie bullied Kris to no end, but they're honestly legitimate friends by now, and I'm sure their friendship will only increase the more the game progresses.

Next is a bit of a controversial one, but I really do like the relationship between Kris and Spamton. Sure, Spamton tries to kill Kris and their friends by the end, but for some time, Spamton was a silly little man. Did Spamton have malevolent intentions? Yes. But Spamton doesn't try to outright harm Kris until he turns into NEO, at least from what I remember. For a while, Kris is just interacting with a desperate and corrupted salesman.

Another platonic relationship I like is Noelle and Berdly, and by extension Noelle and Kris. Noelle is honestly a character who gets along with everybody, and I really respect that. Berdly seems like the type who doesn't have many friends, so being buddies with a kind and patient person like Noelle is definitely positive. And Noelle and Kris have known each other for quite some time! They used to hang out a lot from what we know. Some more background on their friendship would be cool to see!

This next relationship isn't really positive lol, but I LOVE how Swatch and Rouxls Kaard get along, or should I say DON'T get along. Most of it is due to Rouxls Kaard's arrogance and silly nature. I don't think we've seen those two characters interact directly--again, at least from what I remember--but boy, I would REALLY like to see that.

Another controversial platonic relationship is Jevil and Kris, Susie, and Ralsei. Jevil was definitely dangerous and certainly could have killed those three--I for one had to spend hours to get through his boss fight--but I don't really believe it was of purely malevolent intent. I think Jevil was trying to show them the truth, was trying to help them be free. Jevil had long since been insane, and his perception of right and wrong was twisted. And in the end, if you battle him the right way, he warns you about Queen before any other character. Nice!

Sticking with Jevil, I REALLY like his backstory with Seam. I can't say for certain if Jevil and Seam were legitimately IN a relationship--hello, Seavil fans--but for the sake of this post, I'm going to assume they were just friends. Close friends maybe, but friends. The pain of having to lock Jevil away must have been soul-crushing for Seam. Those two worked together, and knew each other really well. It's a shame their friendship had to end in such a somber way.

Rouxls Kaard. Rouxls Kaard and literally everyone. No, I will not elaborate.

This is more of a "hoping they become buddies later on" platonic relationship, but man, I really like the dynamic of Spade King and Susie. I really think Spade King is similar to Susie personality-wise, and they could genuinely get along if not for the current...issues put in place (Spade King despises Lightners, Susie despises Spade King, etc). But even now, seeing those two go back and forth is still refreshing with every playthrough.

This is definitely another controversial one: I really enjoy the dynamic amongst Spade King and his citizens in Chapter 1. The Darkner citizens fear Spade King to no end, and most are forced to attack your party. Well, all of them are forced, but not every Darkner outright attacks you. We even see a Rudinn who refused to fight get imprisoned later that same chapter. It's super sad, but incredibly interesting at the same time.

And for the final few platonic relationships, we have the one and only Lancer! I won't mention Lancer and Susie again, but I will mention other platonic relationships.

Since I've already mentioned this before in my Lancer document, I'll simply state it here: Lancer and the Darkner citizens in Chapter 1 has got to be one of the saddest dynamics ever. It's even making me sad thinking about it :(.

Lancer and Kris/Ralsei. Lancer may like Susie the most, but he gets along with Kris and Ralsei too! Both Kris and Ralsei do their best to treat Lancer well and be as kind and friendly to him as possible, and I really like that. Lancer deserves those three, for sure.

Lancer and Queen! What interests me most about this particular one is the fact that Queen...doesn't really know how to be a parent. Queen's a computer, while Lancer's not. They're both very different characters. It'll be interesting to see how they get along as the game progresses!

Okay, I know I already mentioned Rouxls Kaard, but I need to mention this specific relationship. Rouxls Kaard may be the king of goofing up, sure, but he does legitimately try to be a good father to Lancer. He might complain about Lancer from time to time, but he does care and wants to do his best. Part of it may be because of Spade King looming behind the scenes, but honestly, I think that's a minor reason. Rouxls Kaard seems to be a character with a lot of heart, even if he messes up a lot.

And finally, last but certainly not least, Lancer and Spade King. What can I say about this father/son relationship that I haven't said already? Spade King may be a...questionable parent, at least from what we know, but he does care about Lancer. He wants what is best for his son, even if his methods for showing it are highly controversial. And seeing Lancer care for his dad after everything he's done is so heart-warming. I really want these two to establish a proper, genuine, healthy father/son relationship by the time the game ends.

Well, that's everyone I can think of! This list ended up being longer than intended lol. I guess I had a lot to say.

Thanks for the question! I enjoyed answering it :)!

#ask #deltarune #tdl

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you-dont-count · 3 years

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do you have to do this in front of sans’ store

#sans #sans undertale #sans deltarune #susie #susie deltarune #kris #kris deltarune #deltarune #I love susie kris friendship #I feel like unlike ralsei kris actually enjoys being friends w susie #I like ralsei but kris and ralsei relationships is interesting to say the least #and seems kind of forced! by the player. sorry kris 😭#I hope no one tags this as susie kris ship because I don’t like that ship lol

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kindestegg · 3 years

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Deltarune: On tea, relationships, and why people probably need to stop exaggerating

Alright, so ever since the introduction of the “character flavored” teas in chapter 2, there has been a lot of discussion about them. If you haven’t heard of it yet, in Deltarune Chapter 2, there’s an item that’s a tea that you can buy from an NPC and choose the flavor of, giving you a flavor that is named after a party member. So, Kris tea, Noelle Tea, Susie Tea, and Ralsei Tea.

The fun thing about this item is that it can more or less be used to “track” the relationships between the characters, so to speak. For example, if Noelle has the Susie tea, even if she’s not supposed to drink it due to normally leaving the party, she’ll still have a reaction to it, wondering if they would sell this in gallons and recovering an absurd amount of HP, 400 to be precise.

(this is long as hell, so please continue reading under the cut)

These teas are also actually a reference to a book series Toby is a fan of, Sideways Stories from Wayside School, which does have a chapter about students having ice cream flavored after their classmates. This is most evident when the characters drink their own tea, which tastes like nothing to them and recovers the least amount of HP: 10. In the books, the students also could not perceive the taste of their own flavor of ice cream.

So, the fandom gets ahold of this information and starts testing out the teas and how characters react to them, right? The thing is, I’ve seen people kind of exaggerate the importance of these items and even the meanings of them, and while I think everyone’s entitled to harmless headcanons speculating on the relationship of characters, the problem is people are using these teas as immutable proof and part of their theories.

One of such exaggerations comes mostly in the form of the infamous Ralsei Tea, as to which Kris apparently does not show much reaction, though curiously Ralsei is still happy to see Kris drinking it, and it only recovers 60 HP. For reference, the teas usually cap at a good 120 HP, which is when a character loves the flavor, Noelle being the outlier because she really is just that in love with Susie. For the most part the Fun Gang has pretty positive reactions to each other’s flavor of teas, recovering 120 HP… with the exception of Kris’ reaction towards Ralsei tea.

And the problem starts now: Due to this, people started using this little tidbit in their theories, claiming this was proof that Kris actually dislikes or even hates Ralsei, that we should be ashamed of ourselves for making Kris hug Ralsei, that it is torture for them that we choose nice dialogue options towards Ralsei, some going as far as to claim this is somehow tied to the infamous “Ralsei is secretly evil” theories.

But does this speculation hold any actual weight when analyzed more deeply?

… No. I’m sorry, it just does not, I’m not going to entertain this. In this post, I’m going to deconstruct how the teas really work, and exactly why claiming that this is good enough proof that Kris would dislike Ralsei is an exaggeration at best and downright false at worse.

To truly make a precise conclusion, we must first look at the full picture. We know that 10 HP means “tastes like nothing”, and we know that 120 HP means “tastes amazing”, but are there any other reactions that aren’t either 10 or 120, aside from the 60 HP we already know from Ralsei tea?

Pictured: Noelle reacting to Kris tea.

Pictured: Kris reacting to Noelle tea.

Pictured: Ralsei reacting to Noelle tea.

Pictured: Noelle reacting to Ralsei tea.

I think what people forget here is that you don’t have to really adore someone or outright hate them. Sometimes you’re more neutral on people. And I think that’s what happens here. As you can see here, Ralsei recovers 10 less HP for Noelle than Kris does for him, and still calls her flavor “soft and sweet”. Meanwhile, Noelle claims his tea has “nothing in it”, even though she still recovers 50 hp.

Does this somehow mean Ralsei hates Noelle, or she hates him, for that matter? … No, that wouldn’t make sense, they just met, they know nothing about each other. We do learn here one important thing though, flavor is not tied to HP recovery, as in, the flavor of each character’s tea will taste different to a different person based on what they perceive of them.

As a comparative example, while Kris tea tastes like apple juice to Susie due to her always smelling the apple shampoo they use, Kris tea tastes like blueberries, which is a reference to Kris’ appearance in the Dark World. So while Ralsei tea tastes like nothing to Noelle as she can’t perceive him well enough yet, it still heals 50 HP due to it not being her own tea, and Ralsei heals for the same amount, but he seems to perceive others based on appearance and wants to find something good to say, so he ends up tasting it as something “soft and sweet” because that’s what Noelle appears like.

We can also gain a new “base” HP recovery that is accounted for when characters drink tea that is not their own: 50 HP. And we know 50 HP means “I was literally just made aware of your existence and can’t comment much on you yet”. Now, if you look at Kris and Noelle, they recover 70 HP from each other’s tea. In Noelle’s words, they have been neighbors their entire lives, yet they still find it hard to call each other friends, necessarily. Although you can choose the prompt “we’re friends”, the reasoning still stands: Kris and Noelle just don’t have that much to say about each other. If you remember, when you visit Rudy at the hospital in chapter 1, then Noelle afterwards, they’ll comment on how Kris usually isn’t as involved or interested in their neighbor’s business, suggesting they really don’t hang out as much as you’d think.

So, 50 HP, 70 HP. Where does that leave us for Ralsei’s 60 HP? Does it actually reveal evidence of hatred or at least dislike?

… The answer, if you’ve been paying any attention, is no, of course not. If 50 HP means “literally just learned the other exists” while 70 HP means “not exactly great friends but have known each other for a long time and shared memories”, then that puts Ralsei at a pretty advantageous spot all things considered. Even with him acting somewhat suspicious, even with him being a creature from an entirely new magical world Kris was made aware of literally a day ago, even with Ralsei’s clingy behavior, Kris considers him more than just some random person they just met, and almost a good acquaintance to the level of Noelle.

And sure, you could still bring up comparisons to the higher HP recoveries, like Susie recovering 120 HP from everyone despite also not really being exactly friends with any of these people for too long, and for that I will say…

That girl will eat anything and considering they are all flavors she enjoys she’ll obviously down it in a second, and

Susie is just… a more open person. Once you get her guard down and let her know you truly want to be her friend and think she is cool, she’ll immediately consider you a friend and part of her team. (It’s also kind of sad in a way because it shows she may be desperate for the feeling of belonging but let’s not get into that right now).

Kris, however, is a much more reserved person. Once again I must remind you how everyone in Hometown comments about Kris not usually being very outgoing or talkative. Hell, even when they drink Noelle tea, no one can tell whether they like it or not. Susie may be an exception to this rule, simply because they do have a lot in common, particularly to the fact she was also always an awkward quiet person that their classmates could never place and would often get in trouble. Even if she was mean to them and a downright bully in chapter 1, teens can still have some pretty weird appreciations, and you can tell they must have been wanting to befriend her from the start. It simply just is a better relationship to them. Otherwise, people they haven’t invested in knowing well will probably not cause the same reaction.

Bottom line is… why are we having this debate again? In the end, it feels rather silly. Yes, Kris doesn’t recover 120 HP from Ralsei tea. Big deal? That doesn’t mean they hate or even dislike him, that there’s a deep turmoil and conflict going on between the two already. Ralsei is just a new friend they are still getting used to, that’s it. Can’t blame the kid for having boundaries.

For further proof, if you learn more about the content that is being referenced here, you’ll learn that in the same chapter of the book, there is actually a way for one’s flavor to taste “horrible” due to a person being perceived that way, but at no point in these reactions it’s suggested anyone’s flavor tastes bad, that any of them are disgusted, so I doubt any of these reactions can be seen as dislike.

Dang… this got a little long… but I just felt like I had to make this post because, reiterating, I find myself a little irritated at the fact people will use the tea’s reactions as part of their theories, claiming it as actual proof, when it is far from proving anything.

And before someone brings it up, yes, Kris has been shown to prefer Susie over Ralsei, do I have to point out the flaw in that logic? Preferring someone doesn’t mean you outright dislike the other person.

Moral of the story is: Don’t take conclusions for your theories without good backing in canon, feel free to make your headcanons but don’t state it as proof, byeee.

#deltarune #deltarune spoilers #Commander's orders

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lipstickchainsaw · 3 years

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Kris...?

I finished Deltarune chapter 2 a couple of days ago, and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it since, so now you all get to share in some of those musings!

Spoilers for Deltarune chapter 2, naturally.

The situation surrounding Kris is a little complicated, because we, as the player, as explicitly possessing them against their will, which means most of the actions they take are not theirs, they are ours.

This dichotomy is present in each of the protagonists of this series, but Kris is most clearly unhappy with our presence. Frisk seems to have very little of an opinion on our actions (to the point where them not being us is a reveal), and Chara’s relationship with the player is too complicated to really delve into here, but there’s some mutual egging on happening in that relationship. (I doubt I will be able to avoid Chara as a subject entirely, given the similarities between them and Kris, but this isn’t primarily about them.)

But our control over Kris is not absolute. Kris is able to assert themselves in various ways, most prominently by literally ripping the player out of themselves, by ripping out the SOUL, but this is where the interesting things start:

For one, the battered birdcage suggests that Kris has ripped their SOUL many times already, which means they’ve done so before the player turned up to take possession of them. This would imply that someone else has take possession of Kris before. The first save we override when playing Chapter 1 is Kris’, which means that they resisted that possession and took control over themselves back before we showed up.

Secondly, Kris willingly puts the SOUL back in in chapter 2. This is either because Kris recognises that they need that SOUL, even if it comes with possession, or because it offers some other advantages that make the possession worth it in some sense, but we’ll get into that later.

Who is Kris?

So, we know Kris does not like the possession (his response to the Spamton fight makes this exceedingly clear), but beyond that, there are a lot of details we can fill in about who they are.

For one, Kris has really grown to like Susie. They protect her entirely of their own volition when fighting the King, and the Susie Tea heals Kris the most (Ralsei Tea notably does not, but we’ll get to that). Maybe it’s because Susie gets to be as rebellious as she wants, and Kris appreciates having someone around to call out the bullshit they see around them that our control doesn’t let them comment on, maybe it’s something else. It’s hard to tell, because Kris’ relationship is filtered almost entirely through us, but their other relationships aren’t.

Berdly acknowledges that Kris is the third-smartest person in class (which means Kris is the second-smartest, depending on how much help they’ve received from Toriel), and we know from basically everyone that Kris has been a little creepy, unsettling and quiet for a good long while now. They used to do a lot of mean pranks (especially targeting Noelle). One could argue that these pranks went a little too far, but Noelle doesn’t seem to be that upset about those pranks anymore.

This is made more interesting when looking at that moment in chapter 2, where you, as the player, can prank Noelle on the forcefield puzzle, but then, when Noelle pranks Kris back, Kris looks very upset about this. This either means that Kris has gotten over their pranking days, or it’s the unfairness involved that makes this specific instance unpleasant.

We also know that Kris really, really loves Asriel, and wanted to hang out with Asriel and his friends a lot as a kid, even if that meant people like Catty and Bratty taking advantage of them, and we know Kris studied the occult with Catti at some point. Kris also likes to play the piano, and is very frustrated that we don’t know how to.

Oh, and there’s that weird (bomb?) shelter to the south of town that Kris apparently has a history with.

What’s up with that?

The sound coming from that shelter is plenty ominous already, but Monster Kid and Snowy’s conversation in chapter 2 makes it very clear that Kris has gone in there, and the minor interaction with Susie afterwards indicates that this is not something that Kris likes to talk about.

Now, that shelter is pretty clearly associated with Gaster, and Gaster has been known to experiment with souls, so I do not think it’s much of a stretch to suggest that this is where Kris was first possessed, and things turned for the worse for them.

Kris and Noelle have also gone through something pretty traumatic, possibly involving Noelle’s sister Dess (likely short for December), and the location mentioned for this event makes it very likely that these are the same thing.

So Kris explored that shelter (with Noelle and December, perhaps), stumbled across something bad, and likely got possessed, which they struggled with for a while (turning quiet and strange in the meantime, and alienating the people around them), before fighting the possession off and being left depressed and exhausted, almost perpetually.

But then, there’s another side to Kris.

The Knight

In chapter 2, we learn that Kris is the Knight, who has created at least two dark worlds, and creates a third at the end of chapter 2. Kris either cannot do this, or does not want to do this, while we’re possessing them, but what’s left of Kris after they rip their SOUL out is a shambling mess of a person, which goes some way to explaining why they accept the SOUL back after they’ve done their thing.

Now, we don’t know Kris also created the original dark world in the supply closet (and we know that one existed before the one in the abandoned classroom), since Ralsei never mentions the Knight creating that one, but, well, Ralsei has been keeping his information close to his chest.

It is interesting, however, that Kris created the dark world in the abandoned classroom before we showed up to possess them, so clearly we are not the (only) reason they’re doing this, but if we aren’t, then what is?

Ralsei

Ralsei is always incredibly supportive of Kris, to the point of seemingly crushing on them over the course of the games, but Kris does not seem to quite return those affections (given the lukewarm response to the Ralsei Tea compared to the Susie Tea), regardless of whether we do.

Ralsei is also very mysterious, and has, so far, not shared everything he knows about what’s going on. There’s also some hints in the Snowgrave route that Ralsei knows the player and Kris are not the same person, and that he’s using our ability to switch perspectives to actually talk to Kris, which means he isn’t necessarily hiding things from Kris as he is hiding things from us. Just look at how quickly he tells Kris not to think about the Spamton fight, after Kris has their outburst (if you choose to let them say ‘no’).

So, I think Ralsei may be making plans with Kris behind our backs, which makes it very possible that Ralsei knows Kris is the Knight, and is creating these new dark worlds, which would seemingly contradict his desire not to blanket the world in darkness, but, well, there could be a lot he’s hiding from us still.

Does that mean we’re the bad guys? Does it mean Kris and Ralsei are the bad guys? Either is possible, I suppose, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable of Kris and Ralsei to keep information hidden from the powerful entity possessing Kris. We could be nice, sure, but at any point we have the power to do something awful (a fear the Snowgrave route proves to be very real), so I can hardly blame the two of them for not telling us everything immediately.

So maybe Ralsei’s relentless encouragement and pushing for pacifism is meant for us? To make sure our possession of Kris is as easy on them as possible? And on those occasions where our possession gets to be too much for Kris, they can rip their SOUL out and deal with all the bubbling anger and frustration by unleashing it on some tires, and creating a dark world, before putting the SOUL back and go on with whatever plan Kris and Ralsei have going on?

Do their choices matter, in the end? Do ours?

I have another thing I want to write about that theme, but it’s not entirely related to this one, and this is long and rambling enough already, so let me know if that’s something you’re interested in and I might put it together.

#deltarune #deltarune spoilers #undertale #kris #kris dreemurr #ralsei #character analysis

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inbarfink · 3 years

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So... Kris has created a new Dark Fountain, even if they’re NOT the Knight, they did create at least one Dark Fountain. And if we assume that they ARE the Knight, they have created at least two more Fountains before. The question now is why would Kris do this.

So, I have three guesses, depending on what level of Sinisterness we wanna assign No SOUL Kris\Real Kris:

1. They ARE just straight-up trying to destroy the world, like Ralsei says will happen.

2. They think Ralsei's whole “Roaring" thing isn’t real for whatever reason - or they think that they can make sure that the Fountains won’t overflow to the point where the Roaring might happen for whatever reason. As Chapter 2 made clear, a lot of Lightners would be pretty happy living in a world ruled by the Dark. Maybe Kris thinks they’ve found a way to make it happen and “Roaring”-be-dammed.

But the main issues with Theories 1 and 2 is, well, if No SOUL Kris REALLY wanted to overflow the world with Dark - they are being really counterproductive about it. Kris does seem to be aware of what’s going on around them while the Player is in control - so surely they know that we make them seal every Fountain they create, right? Isn’t that frustrating for them? And if we fail in sealing the Fountain that means Kris dies, right? Would their own plan rely on them dying trying to foil it?

It’s possible that No SOUL Kris has some Secret Plan hiding in their striped sleeve. Maybe the Fountains we’ve been sealing are just a distraction from their REAL flood-the-world-in-Dark plan, maybe they’ve got a way to up the ante for next time... but also, that made me think of Motivation Idea Number 3:

3. Everything that has happened for the last two chapters has been All According to Plan for No Soul Kris.

Imagine if you will, you’re a moody socially-isolated teenager from a tiny nowhere town. Your closest friend was your older brother and now he’s in college and barely ever comes back home. You’re also the only Human in a world full of Monsters, and that doesn’t just mean you always feel different from everyone - but you’re also the only person you know that has no magical ability.

While researching Magic, you come across knowledge of the Dark World, how you can create one with just enough Determination, how it’s a World full of magic and wonders and wonderful dreams, how it’s inhabitants exist to make the “Lightners” happy, about how the one thing needed to seal the Fountains back... is a Human with a Human SOUL.

So what the hell, you decide to try it out. You sneak into your school at night with a knife and make a Dark Fountain in the old unused classroom. And it... goes better than you ever expected. Not only did you get to have a fun adventure where you were the most important hero in the universe - the Mean Violent Bully you got stuck doing a group project with is now your friend! And you’ve got what seems like a ‘replacement’ for your older brother! I mean, there is that little problem of your SOUL being controlled by an outside source, but it also seems to respond positively to the adventure so maybe if you keep doing it... the Outside Force will screw off from your life?

You go for it again the next night, sneak up with a knife to the library and create a brand new Fountain. (and then stop at your kitchen to sneak off some pie). And it goes even better than the previous one. It’s not just you got more fun adventure and a chance to bond with your new friends, you’ve got a chance to repair your estranged relationship with your other close friend who has drifted apart from you! And you’ve watched her become strong enough to stand up to her overbearing mother! And you even got to dunk on that annoying jerk student you don’t like and watch him learn some humility! And everyone seems to basically agree with you, that the Dark World is a better place to live and that having all of these Fountains around just makes life so much more fun and interesting. Sure there’s the “Roaring” problem, but like... As long as you keep sealing every Fountains you create, it’s gonna be fine, right? What’s the harm?

In fact, you’re itching to do it again and to share it with more of your loved ones. You slash your mom’s tires just to make sure you and your new best friend can have a sleepover - and then you open another Fountain, for you and your best friend and your mom. And again, what’s the harm? The Roaring can’t come as long as that pesky possessing SOUL seals up every Fountain you opened, right?

That is... unless the powers of Dark start being too hard for you to control, or if that SOUL reveals itself to be so much more screwed up and immoral than you could ever be and uses the Dark World as a way to manipulate and emotionally torment your friends in horrible ways.

But what are the odds of that, right?

#deltarune #deltarune spoilers #deltarune meta #kris #kris deltarune #kris dreemurr

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willidleaway · 3 years

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OK, let’s talk about Deltarune Chapter 2. Right off the bat two things:

Toby Fox could have been charging 20 USD for this or asked people to pre-purchase the remaining chapters to play Chapter 2, and I’m frankly very surprised (if delighted) that he didn’t.

Soundtrack’s bopping. If you don’t feel like playing two free chapters of a game, which by themselves will give you nine hours of a brilliant time in an absolutely insane world filled with mad characters that all still manages to hold together somehow, I can still recommend giving the OST a listen and then a buy if you are so inclined.

And with that and the spoiler-free lead image out of the way, let’s actually (largely incoherently) talk about Deltarune Chapter 2 below the Read More line. Spoilers galore, including for a bonus enemy ...

OK, so this guy is still a card:

But some non-positive observations to begin with: the Castle Town is nice to look at but maybe a bit uninteresting for the moment, since it’s a completely separate Dark World from the main underworld of Chapter 2. It seems perhaps like a decent hub world for people who haven’t replayed the previous chapter and need some refreshers, especially with the dojo challenges. But some of the other mechanics associated with the Castle Town like recruiting, fusing items, and so forth are as yet unclear. But perhaps it hints at more interaction between chapters through the Castle Town.

And that’s all the non-positive observations I have about Deltarune Chapter 2. It’s not even a negative observation, just taking note of potential seeds being planted for the remainder of the game.

Now. Now now now now now.

I don’t know how Toby Fox manages to continue coming up with such a diverse array of antagonists all so ridiculous and insane in their own special way, but he continues to outdo himself. And not only is Queen insane but so is literally everything that happens in Cyber City and then in Queen’s Mansion, like the layers of truces across Queen and her quasi-willing peons:

and indeed, ye Triumphant Returne of Rouxls Kaard, absolute card:

But the madcap side of things doesn’t mean there isn’t real attention to fleshing out everything introduced in Chapter 1, in tandem on both the narrative side and the gameplay side. As far as the latter, we can (finally) get party members other than Kris to undertake at least basic standard non-magical actions on their own that don’t cost Tension Points, which is very much welcome. But at the same time managing TP well is even more important than before. A lot of careful grazing makes certain fights a great deal easier, in a way that I didn’t really notice for most of Chapter 1 (with the possible exception of Jevil, who I still haven’t successfully pacified). The attacks are correspondingly far denser and often don’t leave too much margin for error, but as someone with minimal hand-eye coordination I still had a reasonable time completing Chapter 2.

Well, except for one particular enemy.

oh god this fight used up every single recovery item I had

Spamton NEO is an interesting enemy, arguably more so than Jevil, and I’m not just saying that because I managed to spare Spamton but still haven’t had any success with Jevil. For one, finding the pieces of the key for Jevil’s cell is straightforward, whereas finding the Empty Disk for Spamton is itself a nightmarish dodge-fest. But more importantly, you actively have to seek Jevil out in Chapter 1, whereas your first encounter with Spamton is actually mandatory as part of the main story and then you optionally follow up on Spamton’s lead later to be able to face off against his NEO form.

Perhaps relevant to the forced nature of Spamton’s introduction is his relevance to Deltarune as a whole despite his bonus boss status. Compared to Jevil’s dialogue, Spamton’s babblings seem far more directly tied to the central themes of Deltarune around choice or agency, or rather a lack thereof (in stark contrast to Undertale’s general ethos). Jevil mostly just wants to wreak mischief and chaos; Spamton is fuelled by a need for freedom, to no longer be a puppet of ... something. And facing him in this way obviously clearly affects Kris, whose own free will is in real question ...

Oh yes, it seems now we’re really getting into the real core of Deltarune’s story, with all of the lore about the Roaring and more talk of the Knight leading up to this ending. But are Kris and the Knight one and the same? Or is Kris a puppet of the Knight? Or ... is it even the other way around? (No idea if that makes any sense but it sounds like a cool thing to throw out there.)

And another thing: this staticky smile ...

I would guess that’s Chapter 3′s boss once we actually go through this new Dark World, but why does this static remind me of the static you see behind Spamton’s glasses in some of his creepier shop dialogue? Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but there’s certainly an embarrassment of riches to over-analyse, even around Chapter 2′s bonus boss.

And I haven’t even talked about every other character being amazing. Susie of course continues to undergo really positive development, but Noelle seems to get the bulk of the attention honestly—we not only get her to finally interact with Susie, but we also learn more about her past as well her family, both about her lost sister (strongly implied to be named December) and her mother. The latter we get not only through more dialogue with her father Rudy but also in an implicit sense through her interactions with Queen, which may well mirror her fractious relationship with an overbearing mother.

Ralsei’s characterisation doesn’t try to expand as much, instead continuing to detail what’s already been planted throughout Chapter 1—his rule of the Castle Town, his awareness of the danger posed by the potential dark/light imbalance, and so forth—but nothing quite as revelatory as with Noelle. It doesn’t mean I can’t try my best to ship Kris with Ralsei though ...

Anyway, fluffy boys and mean girls aside, it’s also nice to see characters like Berdly—who seemed like a completely incidental one-note gag character in Chapter 1—get fleshed out with reasonably compelling (although obviously insane) motivation and backstory, and one wonders which other characters may get this sort of treatment in future.

Speaking of other characters as well, how cute and/or cool are all of the new enemies and enemy-adjacent characters???

Part of me suspects Tasque Manager in particular is actually carefully engineered to break the Internet. But my favourite is Swatch, who gives off weirdly Tuxedo Mask-esque vibes to me:

And an additional bit of speculation: I strongly suspect we’ll see some persistent things across the chapters that aren’t necessarily linear in progression. When I brought Spamton’s shadow crystal to Seam, they basically chided me for not having Jevil’s crystal (for god’s sake Seam it’s not for lack of trying), but then said this:

Is it possible that the game’s keeping track of certain global things outside of any of your individual saves, and some of these certain global things might not just have to do with optional bonuses ... ? Is it possible that some of these certain global things may enable cross-chapter nonlinear gameplay to accompany all of the other Castle Town mechanics introduced in Chapter 2?

Or do I just not want to replay all of Chapter 2 if I manage to pacify Jevil?

Time will tell. How much time?

Only time will tell on that front too, I guess.

Overall: Chapter 2 of Deltarune is another spectacular episode in Toby Fox fleshing out this unbelievable yet somehow credible world in his madcap way, and you can bet I will be watching for future chapters with great interest.

PS: I finished Chapter 2 of Deltarune to have a good time and I’m honestly feeling so attacked right now—

look expiration dates are important okay

#undertale #deltarune

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flare-dragon · 3 years

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Deltarune Thoughts (feat. Chapter 2)

A few assorted thoughts/notes:

-Save points don’t exist in the light world, only in the dark world -Ralsei could be based on Kris’ memories/impressions of Asriel

More complex thoughts:

What if Kris did create the dark fountain of Chapter 2? The usual evidence against it is “When could they have done it? They had no time to disappear and make it during gameplay” but I propose one other possible time: Between Chapter 1 and 2. We see the knife at the end of Ch. 1 and think “Oh no! What’s Kris gonna do?” and then it’s revealed we were baited, with Toriel showing us that Kris ate the whole pie and left the knife in the tin. Our thoughts are pretty much “Oh, that Toby Fox! Baiting us with the knife!”, but what if...it wasn’t a bait, and it connects to Ch. 2′s ending, of Kris using the knife to create a new fountain?

The only major points against it would be: -Kris would have to break and enter the Librarby without leaving a trace -No monster would have to have noticed the weirdness coming from the Computer Lab door for most of the day/raised no fuss over seeing it The second one’s not a big issue; the door’s closed when Susie and Kris find it and we only know of Noelle and Berdly going there, who both wind up in the dark world The first one’s a little less easy, but considering Kris was willing to slash Toriel’s tires (likely to keep Susie at home, but that’s just thoughts), I could see them at being willing to try.

I guess the next thought would be “Why? Are they actually The Knight?”, but that’s a different thought~

What if, like how Ch. 1′s dark world seemed tailored to Susie and the playroom, and Ch. 2′s dark world tailored to Noelle and the computer lab, the secret bosses are based off of Kris?

Admittedly a thought I’m still working on, but there were points on how Queen seemed to almost represent Noelle’s image of her mother, overbearing and a little domineering but trying to do what she believes is best for her daughter (and even trying to make sure all the personalised rooms were personalised to what the characters wanted).

Some of that would be related to how social media sites these days really try to show you stuff based on what they know of your searches and such (spooky), but the points on Queen and Noelle’s relationship to her mother leads to thoughts of Susie and her relationship with friendships. It’s unknown what kind of friendships she could have had in the past, but Kris and Lancer were her first friends that we know of. This world ler her be scary and frightening, and “the bad guy”, but she eventually started to veer towards kindness and good, things she really did want.

But one thing that differs so differently from the tales of either chapter are their secret bosses (or, I guess, ‘chaos bosses’?). They speak of darkness and freedom/lack thereof, Jevil believing himself free on his side of the door, and Spamton being willing to go as far as exploit Kris and try to steal their soul just to be free of his ‘strings’. Jevil is effectively playing and being played with, and Spamton wants so badly to be free and absolutely laments that the strings still tie him down to the darkness, with cutting them only leading to shutting down.

If there’s one thing shared between them and Kris, it’s freedom/lack thereof. We, the player/soul, seem to control their actions and life (at least, with the choices we ourselves are given), and Kris seems to resent it (though it’s...hard to say?), having times where they throw out their soul/us just to have their own agency. It’s...unknown if that’s an outside force or is Kris themself though.

Each of the bosses are still rooted in the worlds they come in, hence their theming (Jevil as a Joker card, Spamton as...well, spam), but it makes me wonder~

What if Kris, Asriel, Noelle, and Dess/December used to go to the dark world?

This one’s still half-baked and more crack than genuine theory, but we know that the four of them used to hang out when they were younger, when both Asriel and Dess were around. We’re told Asriel’s gone to college, but we’re given very little information on Dess, aside from the fact that she’s not at home with Noelle and their mum. It could be that Dess is just with Asriel at college or out travelling the world, but it’s also often theorised that something happened to her.

It’s often thought that the hill below town has something to do with it (there was one or two posts connecting it to Mt. Ebott, which was interesting), though there’s not a lot of connection yet (there’s bound to be. The idea there isn’t would be...strange). It could be that the four of them wandered here at one point, but only three returned (you could say Asgore was supposed to be watching them if you wanna use it as the reason he was kicked off of/left the police force)

Makes me wonder if their adventures were actually adventures into the dark world, which would even tie in to the previous point, the idea that the worlds are tailored to those experiencing it. The idea that the darkners had been abandoned by the lightners until The Knight came and gave them a new purpose. It could be the ‘lightners’ were just the four of them having adventures in the dark worlds until Dess disappeared, then they stopped.

Doesn’t explain why now, of all times, the fountains are being opened up again (though one thought is maybe Kris is trying to find Dess before Asriel comes back, but that’s even more out-there), but it’s an interesting thought~

#deltarune #kris #susie #ralsei #noelle #asriel #december #dess #Mostly just assorted thoughts I had and wanted to share~#I had one thought that said 'What if it wasn't Gaster talking to Jevil and Spamton but the original Knight?'#But '...was there an original knight?' and 'unlike the King and Queen these two are referred to talking to one individual #after the darkners were abandoned by the lightners'. It didn't quite track yet #That said the idea that it is the Knight or an old Knight that caused their insanities is still interesting~#Fun fact: The idea that Dess might be fine and with Asriel at college/exploring the world only came to mind while writing this #I /might/ be missing some info though. /Anyways/

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stainedglassthreads · 2 years

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So, who is, and isn’t, the Knight? Speculation below cut.

For the few curious, my theory is generally as follows--

It’s more impactful if the Knight is someone we already know and care about. Hence why in Undertale the Queen turned out to be Toriel, and Asriel turned out to be Flowey. If Asgore had turned out to be, say, a giraffe monster with a completely different queen whose son was never resurrected, if Chara had turned out to be the playable character’s name all along, if New Home’s design was wildly different from Toriel’s house, perhaps it still would have created an emotional and excellent story, but the impact would have been nowhere near as great. Familiarity, bookends, callbacks, and nostalgia can be dangerous weapons, assuming they’re wielded correctly.

So let’s assume the Knight is someone we’ve already met, and not someone who gets introduced in a later chapter. Who are the most popular candidates?

Gaster, Asriel, Chara, and Kris.

Kris because we’ve seen them open up a Dark Fountain in Chapter 2. I don’t think Kris is the Knight, and I’ve seen a lot of people already illustrate why. If you’re curious, I recommend Dorked’s videos on the subject as they’re pretty short but detailed.

Chara because it’s a popular theory that they’re the one who disrupted the Goner Quiz. I think them disrupting the Goner Quiz has a little merit, if you look at the Japanese translation... but I don’t have enough information to make a call on this either way, so for now let’s assume it’s not them.

Asriel, because he bears a striking resemblance to Ralsei, he’s built up a lot around Hometown, and he was the main antagonist of Undertale. I don’t think he’s all that likely to be the Knight tho? It seems like Kris and Toriel can’t easily drive up to Asriel’s college to visit, which implies it’d be just as difficult for him to pop down to Hometown overnight to create Dark Fountains. So unless there’s a way for him to create Dark Fountains from a distance, or Dark Worlds have a special magic that allow him to teleport to Hometown somehow... I think it unlikely? There DOES seem to be a way to move from one Dark World to another, which Ralsei demonstrates, but requires for at least one Dark World to have been open in Hometown for an extended period of time, since we’re not sure when Asriel’s last visit was. For now, I’m assuming he does have some knowledge of Dark Worlds, but is not the Knight.

Gaster is the final popular guess, and he’s the one I find most likely.

Gaster is heavily implied to be the one contacting us just before Deltarune was initially released, the one running the Goner Quiz, and the one who Jevil and Spamton talked to who drove them to their present states. However, considering how little information we have on the Knight, it’s not impossible that the Knight, and whoever the secret bosses talked to, are two different people-- King and Queen are pretty vocal about what they know about the Knight, but Jevil and Spamton never specifically say the person they spoke to was the Knight, which is an easily missed, but very very interesting, contrast.

So, knowing all we know about them... what do we know about the Knight?

Very little. We know they have DT, and can access parts of Hometown.

Kris matches this, but as I said, I don’t think they’re the Knight.

Chara has DT... but I’m still not even sure they’re in this game.

Asriel has DT and is a Hometown resident... but isn’t there right now.

Gaster... was NOT the Royal Scientist who discovered DT, never mentioned it in his infamous lab entry, and has a tenuous relationship with the concept of existence. We’ve encountered entities that MIGHT be him in both Card Kingdom and the Light World... but it’s unsure if one, both, or neither really IS him.

So... with all of them likely to not be the Knight, who remains that could be the Knight?

Literally any Lightner in Hometown who knows anything about Dark Worlds or Dark Fountains. Special attention is given to Kris’ classmates, so I think they’re the most likely, and Undyne brushes off Kris’ concerns so it’s probably not her, despite her massive amounts of Determination in normal Undertale... but there’s one candidate i think gets overlooked.

Dess Holiday.

Now, Dess Holiday is a bit of mystery, too. We know she was Noelle’s older sister, who Noelle had a good relationship with, and that she’s no longer present. We can also easily guess her full name is likely December. Why she’s no longer here isn’t so clear.

One popular theory is that Kris, Noelle, or Asgore accidentally killed her. Another theory is that she ran away or got trapped in the bunker. A theory that ties into her being missing, not dead, is how she may be the character trapped in the code. This analysis of the lines in Japanese points out the speaker may be her, though we don’t have enough to say for sure.

Whether it is or not though, and even if we do have very little information on her... we know she’s a Lightner, and ergo can have DT. If she is trapped in a Dark World somehow, and has been for a prolonged period of time, then it’s not impossible she’s learned how Dark Worlds work and are created. Perhaps she’s trying to create new Dark Worlds in an effort to escape-- or, like Queen, to try and cheer up her sad sister and give her a fun adventure. Since the two Dark Worlds so far have appeared in School(a place Noelle regularly goes) and in the Library, which Noelle actually did fall into.

Or perhaps a prolonged period of time in the Dark World has warped Dess’ personality somehow, as Toby states exposure to the Dark Fountain corrupted Spade Kings’ personality. Maybe the code text is from when Dess was initially trapped, but after being stuck for a prolonged period of time, her isolation combined with Darkness caused her to believe she’d been abandoned, and she came to sympathize with other abandoned things, similar to how Spades King rages at the Lightners for abandoning him, and delights in the newfound purpose the Knight gave him.

...Then again, this is just a LOT of speculation. Dess might not be the person in the Code, and the person in the Code might not be the Knight. I do think it something very interesting to consider tho-- especially with how in Undertale, at the center of it all was still a pair of traumatized siblings... one who wanted to treat their home as their toybox, one who felt immense responsibility and pressure who can be corrupted into a weapon who comes when their name is called.

#deltarune #deltarune theory #deltarune knight #dess #dess holiday #gaster #kris dreemurr #kris #asriel #asriel dreemurr #chara #chara dreemurr #if dess turns out to be the knight then i reserve the right to tell you all 'i called it' :P

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mrfandomgage · 3 years

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Ralsei: Do you have any stories?

Me: yeah, a few. As my name may apply, most are to things I enjoy

Ralsei: Oh? Can y-

Susie: Hey, we're back!

Lancer: I'm here too!

Me: Do you wish to hear a story?

Susie: A story? Can it at least have blood?

Kris: Susie, not everything needs blood. What does your story have?

Me: Death, violence, blood

Kris: ...

Susie: Yeah!

Ralsei: uh, how bad is it?

Me: I probably can't describe it as well as normal, but it's of my favorite creation. I'll tell the origins, the original story, and revisions.

Lancer: ...

Me: yes Lancer?

Lancer: Can I have some popcorn?

Me: yes

*One popcorn break later*

Me: thanks for the microwave Jevil. Is everyone ready for the story?

All, plus Jevil: Yeah!

Me: The origin of Night Terror. Originally, she was only meant to be a Roleplay character. A character to be nothing but a puppet, for evil actions and tom foolery. However, she needed a backstory, and concept. I took from dreams and nightmares, and my little understanding of Freddy Krueger as a "Dream Demon" to kill in people's sleep.

Me: Her original story was bad. "Oh whoah is me. I've been killed to an uncountable number, and now I'm a being of pure vengeance that killed everyone in the world". So instead of dropping this character like others, I gave the ideas flesh and bone. Instead of being uncountable, it's uncounted and exaggerated. Instead of nonsense violence, I gave the violence flesh, abuse, to a point that'd break bones for one off action. Instead of being the sole reason her world died, it died around her as she got used to killing. I left the blood on her slit throat to let others know, she's already dead.

Susie: that sounds cool and all, but are you going to tell a story?

Kris, Whispering: Susie! Rude!

Me: No, I find that fair. Now one last stage to let you know her life being alive. Her true name is Frisk. She was a girl who was very, tired, in her world. I designed it to beat her down, just so she'd be willing to kill anything. Of course, it was hard for her, she was naturally a pacifist. She is a dream, a soul of positive energy. In a world of nightmares, they hated the energy she put off. Her own parents murdered her as a baby, but all they knew is that she put off less energy, when she woke up. So they devised to keep her energy low. They'd give her old hard as coal beds to keep her restless, if she was happy with a day, they'd shout at her for any tiny mistake or fault even when it wasn't hers. Those parents hated her favorite things, like vibrant yellows, and gave her only greys and traditional purples for special occasions, not that they wouldn't make those purple items irritable. Best of all for the parents, all they knew was that if they had really wanted to beat down their little girl til she bled on the carpet, not fully knowing they already have, she would be in misery for weeks. They never gave her bruises, she never had evidence when waking up again. She was bullied at school for sleeping at her desk, and when it got physical, it was something her parents could taunt her for. She had a friend, but he'd demean everything she said of herself. She tried to hang herself once, but when she woke up, all she could do was cry. One day, one the rare occasion she was forced to be out on the schoolyard, kids were talking of a legend. The kids taunted Frisk, stating what she believed herself. "Nobody wants you, you should climb into Mount Ebott, so you'll never return". That day, she confided in her friend, of her "nightmares" and the thought of Mount Ebott may ending her for good. Her friend tried to sew doubt into her mind of this plan, in the end, only making her cry, and giving her more reason to see to it that she could die. In the dead of night, she only took a flashlight and her purple clothes up with her to that mountain. She entered a cave and found a deep hole. She stepped to it, stood with her back facing the drop, and plunged herself into the underground. It took her a while, but she woke up. She woke up. She woke up. She was upset, but her friend was right. She met a giggling flower. "Ah, another human. You seem different, but does that matter? Have fun in your grave!" Frisk smiled at the thought of dying. She walked the tunnels and carved out cave to find a floor of spikes. She tried to drop herself onto them, only for them to retract from underneath her. While getting up, she notice that only sets of retracting spikes are sharp, while the ones that were out were as dull as rocks. She marched on, growing tired, and falling asleep in the halls. When she woke, she was in an old used bed, it was remarkable compared to home. Getting out of bed, she left the room, and tried to leave the house. Approaching the downstairs door, she caught flame. Her nerves screamed from end to end in torent pain, her lungs prayed for oxygen only taking in the smoke and ash of her own body, blood and flesh. She tried and tried and burned to ash, she finally found the monster burning her flesh, admitted she wished to leave. Learning that the monster didn't want her to leave. The monster ran to the exit with Frisk hot on their tail. Screaming and crying, the monster attacked her, I shouldn't have to say, but she had died multiple times. She became exhausted, and moved without thought, with her only thoughts to be to improve her movements, before falling to the cold. The snow was biting her senses, even though she just got some sleep, she was exhausted. As if she was walking for days. A loud snap reminded Frisk of her bones. She dropped to her knees in the freezing snow, and drops thinking something broken. In the first time in a while, the girl had a real friend. The friend talked to her, he convinced her that she was ok, and knew a place where she could rest... sorry, my throats getting dry

Susie: Awww... It was just a little interesting

Kris: could be better if you extended it

Me: I literally don't have enough text space or patience to do that yet. Trust me, I've wanted to make this story whole for a while.

Lancer: Can she at least be a little more happy? I mean, she is a dream and-

Me: no, she's constantly weakened by negative influences, mainly her own thoughts after what her parents did to her. Her only friendly relationship with other humans is still one that undermines her own thoughts and feelings. Her only dream, her only hope, is to not be useless.

Ralsei: it's good... but I have a question. Why was she born a dream?

Me: Dreams and Nightmares used to share a universe, and even though they started to hate eachother doesn't mean they didn't mix. After a rift of magic, the worlds split, and Dreams became a recessive trait to Nightmares and vice versa. It became extremely unlikely, but there's still a chance in one in a billion.

Kris: Why are monsters separated from humans?

Me: the amount of magical power to create that rift was only created by the power of monsters. Humans feared if war were to break, they too could be thrown into oblivion. Seven mages forfeited their souls to bind monsters and whoever entered. Monsters realized that they couldn't break the spell, due to the power of the seven souls, even with their collective power... can I please stop talking?

Jevil: How does she come back after dying?

Susie: When does she murder people?

Me: After blending her soul, Susie. She comes back because dreams were extremely persistent, practically a bunch of immortals. Nightmares knew this when they shared a universe, but as I said, they had a few generations and forgot. The only thing that can truly kill a dream is when they have no dream for themselves.

#undertale #ralsei deltarune #lancer deltarune #lancer #ralsei #deltarune jevil #jevil #susie deltarune #susie #kris #kris deltarune #night terror

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agentravensong · 5 years

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Why Frisk, Chara, & Kris Being Non-Binary Is More Than Just a Headcanon

An UnderTale/DeltaRune Analysis

Since DeltaRune came out, I’ve been sucked right back into the Undertale fandom. Unfortunately, while I’ve seen tons of great fanart and interesting theories relating to the game, it seems the introduction of a third playable human character who isn’t explicitly male or female has also somewhat re-sparked the debate about whether the genders of Frisk, Chara, and now Kris are up to the player’s interpretation.

On one side, you have people saying to just respect everyone’s headcanons about these characters, down to deciding their pronouns. On the other, you have people saying the three characters being non-binary is part of their thematic purpose in the games, on top of being positive canon representation for a rarely recognized group.

I fall into the latter camp, and this post will explain why. (WARNING: long and text-heavy post)

NOTE: This post was written in late 2018. Since then, I have made an updated version with additional points in Google Docs, which I then used as the script for a YouTube video. As such, this post should be considered an incomplete, though still sound, version of my argument. If you have the time, rather than continuing to read this post, please click the above link(s) to read the Google Doc and/or watch the video for a full understanding of the topic.

If you find yourself repeatedly coming back to this post for whatever reason, remember that my ask box is always open! I’d be more than happy to clarify my position :D

A quick definition to start us off: if a person is “non-binary”, it means that a person doesn’t see their gender as being exclusively male or female. Many non-binary people prefer to be referred to by the pronouns “they/them/theirs” instead of “he/him/his” or “she/her/hers”, since “they” is already a gender neutral pronoun.

Also, just in case someone doesn’t understand this, a person’s gender identity is not necessarily related to who they are romantically or sexually interested in.

This post will be split into six sections of unequal length, with the focus progressing from literally interpreting the text to Toby’s intentions and the outside impact of having these characters be non-binary.

1. The basics: All 3 characters are referred to exclusively by gender-neutral pronouns in the games.

Let’s go character by character, shall we?

FRISK

It’s admittedly hard to find examples for this, since most of the time people are talking about Frisk in-game, they’ll be talking directly to them in second person. However, while looking through screenshots provided by the UnderTale Text Project, I found these:

Thank you, Alphys!

EDIT: Hey look, a more obvious example I somehow forgot about!

CHARA

All of the following quotes come from the character Chara was supposedly closest to in the entire Underground, Asriel. As you read, think about this: if Chara’s preferred pronouns were anything other than they/them, why would Asriel not use their correct pronouns here?

“Chara hated humanity. Why they did, they never talked about it. But they felt very strongly about that.”

“When Chara and I combined our souls together, the control over our body was actually split between us. They were the one who picked up their own empty body. And then, when we got to the village, they were the one who wanted... to use our full power.”

I’ve seen some people take Flowey’s mentions of Toriel in his New Home Genocide monologue to be confirmation that Chara goes by “she/her”, since he doesn’t refer to Toriel by name... even though Chara wouldn’t have been awake at that time, and when Flowey DOES talk about Chara in this monologue, it’s in second person, since he believes YOU are his old best friend. This misconception isn’t common, especially these days, but I figured it was worth addressing.

KRIS

Out of the three humans, I think Kris is the one who people are most likely to associate with a specific gender based on their name. But despite the theory videos and such you may have seen where people referred to Kris as “he”, this is not reflected anywhere in-game.

(Got these screenshots of DeltaRune’s code from this tumblr post)

The lines in the first photo are what Susie says when she’s trying to break Kris and Ralsei out of prison, and you have the option to suggest to her which way to go. The second example. according to Kris’ page on the DeltaRune fandom wiki, is said by Ralsei earlier in the game, if you do not run to complete the clock puzzle to open the door right after reuniting with Susie. Unlike the first example, it is clear in this case that Kris is the only one being referred to.

I remember seeing someone somewhere argue that Susie and Ralsei don’t know Kris well enough to know their “proper” pronouns. When it comes to Ralsei, I can see that argument... but did you notice that he knows both Kris and Susie’s names without asking? It seems he knows more than he lets on... and while Susie certainly wasn’t friends with Kris before this, the fact that they’re in the same class is enough for me to think she would have heard Kris be referred to by their preferred pronouns at least in passing by this point.

And that’s it. Frisk, Chara, and Kris are never referred to by other pronouns... with, admittedly, one exception:

Why does Chara use “it” for themself here? If I had to guess, it’s likely a combination of them being a ghost of their former self without a soul of their own (Flowey’s shown us how much your personality and sense of self is tied to having a SOUL) and the corruption from the Genocide run (remember that gaining LOVE affects a person’s mentality). They see themself as a demon, no longer a person. Whether that’s literally true to any extent or just how they feel after everything they’ve been through doesn’t really matter, I just wanted to cover this point before anyone else could bring it up. It’s not like it makes them not non-binary or anything.

To be clear, not all non-binary people go exclusively by they/them pronouns. Some prefer to go by masculine or feminine pronouns for their own reasons; some go by “neo-pronouns”, ones invented specifically for those who identify as non-binary; and some people go by more than one set of pronouns. However, in the case of Frisk, Chara, and Kris specifically, the fact that they only go by they/them pronouns makes them non-binary, and using any other pronouns for them would be incorrect (even if you have them go by they/them AND he/him or she/her).

Really, that should be enough to prove that the three humans being non-binary is canon. After all, you never have any of the other major characters in Undertale or DeltaRune explicitly state “I’m a girl” or “I’m a boy”. We know their genders because of the pronouns everyone refers to them by. Sure you’ll see gender-bends of those characters, but no one ever claims that those are on the same level of validity when it comes to canon as the actual canon.

But I know that isn’t enough for the people who came into this post disagreeing with the premise, so let’s actually get to countering some of their arguments, shall we? The main argument, of course, is that the humans’ are all meant for the Player to at least partially craft identifies for, including deciding which pronouns they use. But first...

2. Small Fish First: Other characters who are obviously not meant to be self-inserts use gender neutral pronouns.

...I want to cover the easier to counter idea that they/them pronouns are meant to just be, for lack of a better term, “placeholders”; the pronouns you use when you don’t know a person’s gender, rather than being valid permanent pronouns on their own.

If this were true in the case of Undertale and DeltaRune, you’d expect the humans to be the only ones referred to by these pronouns. They’re the ones whose identities are left ambiguous so the Player can project onto them, right?

But that couldn’t be father from the truth. In fact, the majority of the monsters you encounter in both games are referred to with gender-neutral pronouns (they/them and/or it), if any pronouns at all.

Now one might say, “But none of those monsters are really meant to be individual characters.” I get why you’d think that. But you’re forgetting at least one person...

Yup, Napstablook, despite what many fans have assumed from what I’ve seen, does not go by he/him pronouns, but they/them. And it’s not just in the narration either. Undyne does too in certain phone calls with Papyrus. ...Then again, she barely knows Napsta, and we see in DeltaRune that she defaults to they/them when talking about people whose gender she doesn’t know (specifically in that game, Alphys).

But that isn’t my last example. One of the few people who was ever close to Napsta was Mettaton (before he became a celebrity). And what does Mettaton say after Blooky calls in to his final show?

What this proves is that Toby recognizes they/them pronouns as valid for an individual in his work, which I hope makes buying that he purposefully made all three humans canonically non-binary easier for skeptics to swallow (we’ll get back to whether he DID purposefully do that later).

But I’ll acknowledge that there IS a difference between the three humans and the other characters in the games who use they/them, due to their relationship with you as the Player. So with that tangent out of the way, time to diffuse the “everyone can have their own headcanons about the kids’ genders” argument.

3. Thematic Context: All 3 humans have moments of asserting their agency, and part of the game’s subtext is how they each relate to the Player, rather than them all being blank slates.

Again, we’ll go character by character.

FRISK

This section is, admittedly, the one with the least evidence compared to the rest. But here’s what we have, and it’s pretty obvious:

After this moment, as was shown earlier, the other monsters know Frisk’s name and will refer to Frisk in the third person with they/them pronouns. Now, consider this: If Frisk used other pronouns, wouldn’t they have corrected the monsters here? Sure Frisk don’t talk without being prompting much throughout most of the game, but considering how they just shared their name, something equally as personal as their pronouns, I don’t think it would feel too out of place here.

Alternatively, if Frisk’s gender was up to the Player’s interpretation, the Player could have been given a prompt to correct the other characters with the “proper” pronouns for Frisk. You could argue it would be pointless this late into the game, but couldn’t that logic apply to the reveal of Frisk’s name as well? In this case, the lack of such a moment speaks more to me than having such a moment would.

Now, I totally get why people would project onto Frisk up to this point in the narrative, including assigning them different pronouns. It wouldn’t be a plot twist otherwise. Even their design seems to lend to that, with the unrealistic bright yellow skin Legos and emojis have to make them more race-neutral, and their emotionless, unchanging facial expression (though it’s worth considering that most of the other character’s overworld sprites don’t change expression much either; I’m pretty sure Alphys’ overworld sprite keeps her dopey smile even when she’s talking about the depths of her depression and failure at the end of the True Lab section). And this actually works to UnderTale’s benefit through most of the game, making the connections you forge with the monsters feel more personal.

The significance of this moment is that it asks the Player to be willing to change their perspective. Throughout the True Pacifist run, you help Frisk to change the mindsets of the characters you come across; this is most obvious with Undyne, who has been raised to see all humans as the enemy, but comes to admit that at least “some humans are OK, I guess” after befriending you. Along the way, you learn that there’s more to these monsters than first impressions may suggest (again, Undyne being a great example). Now, the game is asking you to look deeper one more time, and presenting you with the challenge you’ve posed to all the other major characters: are you willing to recognize Frisk’s autonomy; to understand there is more to this person than you first saw?

EDIT: Hey, remember that screenshot from earlier where Flowey asks you to “let Frisk live their life”? He’s literally asking you to let Frisk be free and truly themself, rather than resetting and taking control of them again. So there’s some more food for thought.

CHARA

While you are the one who names Chara (the reason for which will be considered in the fourth section of this post), consider these points:

1. If the purpose of Chara’s entire character was meant to be just a reflection of you as the Player, then why give them a “true name” at all?

2. Chara’s backstory is integral to the setup of UnderTale’s plot, and provides a good amount of hints at their original personality, easily making them less of a “blank slate” for the Player to project onto than Frisk.

3. Chara makes a clear distinction between the Player and themself in their monologues at the end of the Genocide route. In case you forgot, here are some reminders.

First meeting:

“Your power awakened me from death.”

“My ‘human soul’, my ‘Determination’; they were not mine, but YOURS.”

“With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation.”

“Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong.”

If you agree to ERASE the world: “You are a great partner.”

In the abyss:

“Interesting. You want to go back.”

“You want to go back to the world you destroyed.”

“It was you who pushed everything to its edge. It was you who lead the world to its destruction.”

“But you cannot accept that. You think you are above consequences.”

“Perhaps, we can reach a compromise. You still have something I want.”

“Then, it is agreed. You will give me your SOUL.”

Second meeting:

“You and I are not the same, are we?”

“This SOUL resonates with a strange feeling... You are wracked with a perverted sentimentality. ...I cannot understand these feelings any longer.”

“I feel obligated to suggest: should you choose to create this world once more, another path would be better suited.”

To say there is no connection between Chara and the Player would be unfair. I mean, if they hated humans their whole life, why do they end up taking out that rage on the monsters, the ones who were actually kind to them, in the Genocide run? Like Chara says themself, you guide them, teaching them definitively that “in this world, it’s kill or be killed”; and the influence you have on them is much more obvious if you subscribe to the Narrator Chara theory (but that’s a whole other can of worms).

Like with Frisk, Chara presents the Player a challenge, but in a more subtle way: can you recognize that YOU are at fault, rather than blaming your actions on a damaged kid who learns from your example and never got the chance to grow beyond their mistakes? And part of meeting that challenge is recognizing that Chara is, or at least used to be, their own whole person.

KRIS

Now we get to the really fun part. DeltaRune as a whole seems to be delving even deeper and more explicitly into the relationship between the playable character as an unwilling vessel and the actual Player than Undertale did. Outside of the prevalent message that “Your choices don’t matter” (which I’m guessing will end up more like the “kill or be killed” of this game rather than DR’s intended final moral), the main evidence towards this is how the game starts.

1. A red soul appears on screen when the unknown speaker (presumably Gaster) asks you if they’ve successfully connected with you. The soul is what you control throughout this sequence. The implication? The SOUL in this game is a manifestation of you as the Player. In fact, considering some of the Chara quotes I mentioned earlier, this could be true of UnderTale as well.

2. You spend time making a vessel, only for it to be discarded, because “No one can choose who they are in this world.” This lack of choice is actually foreshadowed when you choose which legs you prefer, since all but the last choice are the same. The game is pointing out right away how superficial these choices are.

3. The speakers says “Your name is...” and Toriel seemingly finishes the statement by calling out “KRIS!”

The message of points 2 and 3 combined is pretty obvious to me: we don’t get an empty vessel to put ourself and our ideas into in DeltaRune. Kris is NOT an empty vessel; they have an already established backstory and personality, which we get multiple hints at (mostly when going around town at the end of the demo).

The fact that you have to go through this creation process on every new file, even after beating the game, suggests it’s more than just a framing device, but directly tied to the game’s narrative and/or themes in some way. So, let’s keep this scene in mind as we look at Kris’ defining moment at the end of Chapter 1.

In the middle of the night, Kris is wrestling with themself in bed until they fall out. Their walk is very stilted and jerkish, reminiscent of a zombie, or someone possessed.

Kris opens and closes their hand a few times before digging into their body and pulling out their soul, their eyes blank. (Notice how this doesn’t seem to actually leave a hole in their chest or anything? Almost as if the soul was never a part of them in the first place...)

They go to the wagon and harshly YEET the soul into the cage (the flavor text for which mentions it has already seen a few crashes... has something like this happened to Kris before?).

Kris walks back to the middle of the room, as if to purposefully stand in the center of the DeltaRune symbol on the floor, then pulls out a knife from seemingly nowhere, and turns to the camera with a red glow in their eyes.

Now, I totally get why most people will immediately assume that Kris has been possessed by a post-Genocide Chara here. I’m pretty sure the visual similarities between this scene and the one that plays if you choose to stay with Toriel in a soulless pacifist run in UT are intentional.

But remember how we mentioned the red SOUL, at least in DeltaRune, is a manifestation of the Player? This is actually reinforced in this scene, because you’re able to move the SOUL back and forth within the cage.

We’ve been controlling Kris via that SOUL the whole way through the game, and now? Kris is done with us. THIS is their prime moment of agency in Chapter 1 - reclaiming ownership of their own body - and I doubt that it will be their last.

There’s a ton of other stuff I could mention about Kris, like how:

* they had their own save file, which you overwrite at the first save point

* multiple NPCs in the town will comment on Kris seeming more talkative or looking off today, because YOU’RE making them interact with people

* Kris’ ability to play the piano is worse than normal with you controlling them, according to the hospital receptionist

* the narration says Kris feels bitter if you throw away the one possession in their inventory, the Ball of Junk (”bitter” isn’t the emotion one would feel if they did this of their own free will)

or all the hints at Kris’ true personality as an introverted, codependent prankster. But that could be a post in itself. My point is that, if Frisk and Chara’s individualism from the Player was subtle in UnderTale, this is pretty straightforward, if you know where to look.

And if these three humans are all their own characters, then shouldn’t we consider what seemingly little we DO know for sure about them as canon? We all take their names to be canon, so why not their pronouns?

That’s the bulk of the argument done. But when discussing canon, there is one thing that always has to be considered:

4. Can We Know The Creator (Toby Fox)’s Intentions?

Well, not really.

Some may bring up the one tweet where Toby suggested to name the fallen human (Chara) “your own name” as evidence that you ARE meant to project yourself into these characters.

However, I think you could just as easily argue that doing this ADDS to the impact of when Frisk, the character you physically control, confirms themself to be their own person with their own name, rather than a mold for you to pour yourself into.

And though Chara does make it clear that they themself as a character are separate from you, the whole Genocide ending monologue does hit harder when the person reprimanding you for their sins, who describes themself as “the feeling you get when your stats increase”, shares your name.

While putting this post together, I came across this interview Toby did about Undertale back in September 2015, and took particular note of this section:

While this technically doesn’t confirm or deny anything either way, how hard would it have been for Toby to say, “Well the protagonist is meant to have their gender be up to the player’s interpretation”? I doubt he would have gotten more backlash for that then he would have for definitively saying that Frisk is MEANT to be non-binary (though I doubt that would have stopped people from making them male or female anyway).

Then again, the article does start with the interviewer saying this:

“I told Toby Fox to skip questions he didn’t find interesting, and boy did he take me at my word.”

So maybe he just didn’t have anything worthwhile to mention.

I can’t say with certainty that Frisk and Chara’s genders were never meant to be up to the Player’s choice, even after what I mentioned in section 2 (and I doubt Toby would want to make a statement on it at this point). Same with Kris, for now.

However, if the rest of DeltaRune ends up going in the direction I suggested in the previous section, I honestly would not be surprised if there’s a moment where Kris confirms they are nonbinary, as a show of agency and individualism akin to Frisk telling Asriel their real name. I wouldn’t really call it a “theory”, and it’s hard to speculate what the other chapters of the game will at all be like based on what relatively little we have... but I wouldn’t have mentioned it here if I didn’t think it had any validity.

5. Why Does This Matter?

Outside of the previously mentioned stuff relating to the games’ themes/messages about choice, agency, and individualism, there’s one big reason: representation.

How many games can you think of where there are any explicitly non-binary characters? How many where that character is a major one, who doesn’t get treated as particularity different from the others just on the basis of the pronouns they use? And how many of those games are even close to the popularity of Undertale in its hayday? Even expanding these questions to media other than just video games won’t net many more results.

For people who are striving for representation, seeing posts like “Just let people have their headcanons :)” can come across as the OP not understanding how much that representation means. Even worse, coming back to the point I made in section 2 of this post, it could be seen as the OP denying that being non-binary is just as real and concrete as being male or female (a problem which more mainstream representation of non-binary people would help solve!).

But don’t just take it from me. After all, as a binary cis girl myself (”cis” meaning not trans), I can’t speak generally for all the trans and non-binary Undertale and Deltarune fans out there. So allow me to link some posts which provide their perspectives:

This first post is from before DeltaRune was released, and mainly focuses on Frisk, but goes in-depth on the topic (and the OP provided me some feedback on my post, so if they see this, thanks!)

I came across this post just while scrolling through the DeltaRune tag about why this stuff matters to non-binary fans.

This post is specifically about how using they/them pronouns for the kids is preferable whether or not it’s literally canon.

Here’s another post from the same person covering some common counter-arguments.

And if the other posts are too long for you to bother reading after going through mine, this one sums up the point in one sentence.

I know some people flinch at the mere mention of the word “representation”. I know that some will argue you shouldn’t need to see representation of a group you belong to in a piece of media in order to be able to relate to the characters and/or feel validated yourself - because I’ve seen people make this argument. But, I mean, I certainly find it easier to relate to characters that I share traits with; that’s just how humans work. It’s probably the main reason why people assign different genders to Frisk, Chara, and Kris in the first place! Besides, who does it hurt to include more diverse characters?

Oh right, there’s the idea that “forcing” creators to include representation is bad for creativity or whatever. Well good thing that’s not what this is about! As far as I know, no one is telling Toby he has to ADD new characters to fulfill a quota; the characters in question (Frisk, Chara, & Kris) already exist in his work. The point of this post is to show that the three of them were MEANT to be non-binary from the start (assuming I provided enough proof to convince you), so people won’t continue to erase that representation. By making them binary cis boys or girls, you’re only taking away from the original text (and giving people more to “complain” about).

Honestly, what does one even have to gain story-wise from assigning different genders to the human kids? I can’t remember a time I saw where making them strictly boys or girls added anything to their characterization or opened up different story possibilities (I’m sure you could could up with a theoretical example, but compared to the endless fanworks that DON’T do that, they hardly make a dent). Speaking beyond just Frisk, Chara, and Kris, characters being non-binary shouldn't affect how you ship them. You can give such characters more overtly masculine or feminine designs/appearances, but still have them be non-binary and go by they/them pronouns (most people don’t naturally look androgynous after all). In a work with voice acting, casting someone with a more masculine or feminine voice to play a non-binary character shouldn’t stop you from portraying the character as non-binary either - just refer to them with the right pronouns!

And if people who find your work continuously misgender your non-binary characters or ask what their “real” gender is, don’t let them get to you. You don’t need to respond to every such comment, but when you DO respond, clearly state that these characters are non-binary, politely correct the people who refer to those characters by the wrong pronouns, and, if worst comes to worst, block the people who won’t respect that. Before you (using “you” for the rest of this paragraph to refer specifically to my fellow binary cis peeps) can even think to argue “that sounds like too much work” or “it’s not worth the potential controversy”, remember that non-binary people in real life have to deal with this crap far more often than we do, and for them, it’s personal. If they can handle it, why can’t you?

Yes, Frisk, Chara, and Kris are fictional characters, not real people. But more representation of non-binary people in media helps others learn to understand and respect them, both in fiction and in real life. Honestly, it’s beyond time for people to accept that “they/them” aren’t “placeholder pronouns”, and the genders of people who use them aren’t up for others to judge. It’s just who they are, and really, how hard is that to respect?

If nothing else will convince you, think of it this way: if you’re not in the group being affected by a discussion like this, and you don’t care about the people in that group, keeping yourself out of the conversation saves everyone time and energy, without hurting anyone.

6. Conclusion

So, to briefly summarize this essay-length post’s main points:

1. Frisk, Chara, and Kris all go solely by “they/them” in their respective games, so having them go by any other pronouns is technically diverting from canon to the same extent that gender-bending any other character would be, NOT a valid interpretation of the original text.

2. There are other individual characters in these two games, such as Napstablook, who are referred to by they/them pronouns, even by those who were close to them.

3. The three humans are all shown to be more than just blank slates for the Player to project themself onto, making the stuff which IS definitively said about them (specifically, their names and pronouns) canon parts of their characterization unless directly proven otherwise.

4. We can’t assume Toby’s intentions, but even if he didn’t initially make Frisk, Chara, and Kris gender neutral for the sake of giving non-binary people representation, many people have taken it as that. Thus, seeing others say that the humans’ genders are up for interpretation is interpreted as those people not respecting non-binary identities as valid on their own.

The one other point I can think people might bring up would be the idea that kids as young as Chara or Frisk wouldn’t identify as non-binary because they wouldn’t understand the concept. To that argument, I’d suggest looking up videos about people who realized they were transgender as kids. In general, if there are concepts in this post you didn’t quite get or agree with, research is your friend!

Speaking of which, as this post I came across in the DeltaRune tag yesterday pointed out, fun fact: “non-binary” is an umbrella term that still leaves some slight room for personal interpretation when it comes to the humans’ genders! To use myself as an example, I personally headcanon Chara as firmly agender, Kris as a a demi-boy (someone who only partially sees themself as male), and Frisk as genderfluid (meaning that their sense of gender regularly changes). However, despite the nuances in their gender identities, I only have them go by they/them pronouns, their canon ones, in my fanworks. Doing otherwise not only goes against canon, but can be considered misgendering, and thus should be avoided.

This doesn’t mean that you can’t make up ANYTHING about what Chara, Frisk, and Kris are like either. People have plenty of headcanons about the backstories and other quirks of characters like Sans, Undyne, Mettaton - basically the whole cast of both games - and there’s nothing stopping you from doing that for the human kids. I certainly have my own ideas of what Chara and Frisk’s lives were like before they fell into the Underground. The difference is that those are speculating on things not outright said in canon. But Frisk, Chara, and Kris going by they/them pronouns IS canon, and should be respected as such.

At the end of the day, neither I nor anyone else (not even Toby) can outright stop people from having their opinions about these fictional characters. But since I had some free time this weekend, I figured I could take a stand for something I care about relating to a fandom I’ve emerged myself in for the past few years. My main hope in making this post is that you’ll understand why certain people disagree with the seemingly righteous stance of “It’s all up to interpretation, just let people do what they want!”. And if you knew nothing about non-binary identities before, hopefully this was educational for you!

If you have any remaining questions or suggestions relating to this post, feel free to reblog with your feedback or send me an ask. Until then, this is Agent Raven, signing off.

#deltarune #delta rune #undertale #frisk #chara #kris

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captainextremis · 5 years

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‘k so everyone who follows me knows I’ve been on a huge Undertale kick lately, but I’ve also been thinkin abt deltarune and I had a theory that was consuming my brain every waking minute last night and that is the fact that this motherfucker right here

is the most confusing character we’ve ever met. It’s not because we know next to nothing about them, but instead, it’s because we don’t have enough information, though I imagine that goes without saying. I mean, for Chara, we at least know they loved their adopted family enough, and hated humans. Frisk is meant to be a kind of blank slate for the player to mold so they can be either the nicest angel you will ever meet or a fully psychotic, bloodthirsty motherfucker. But Kris here...Kris is having a crisis of conscience, of sorts.

I imagine someone’s already been thinking about this theory, if you can call my rambling a “theory,” but the reason Kris is such a confusing character is because of the three forces fighting for dominance over their body. “Three? Why three?” I hear you ask. “There’s only two forces living inside Kris...us, and whatever took them over in the final cutscene!” Well, my friend, that’s fucking wrong, because I would like to remind you that during the playable epilogue in Hometown, we’re clued in to what Kris is like by talking to other people.

Before that, there are three things trying to control Kris: Kris’ original personality, us, the Player, and what I will be referring to as the “Outside Force.” I hesitate to call this Chara, because while we do know Chara offers to erase the Undertale world so they and Frisk can “move on to the next one,” we don’t know if their reach extends further than the multiple timelines of Undertale, and I personally find that to be implausible, unless Toby confirms it when the full game comes out.

I also hesitate to call the Outside Force Gaster, as Gaster, if he truly did create deltarune as the fandom posits, seems to be more like a deist God that has created deltarune and seems more interested in letting it “run” than getting directly involved. The Outside Force’s true identity is currently unknown, and is malign at best and outright omnicidal at worst. But the reason this is all so confusing is that we don’t know how many facets of these three forces overlap.

For example, we know that Kris is a big eater. It’s stated by Toriel when she tells us not to touch the pie she’s been baking before the ending scene, and by the minister claiming Kris once tried to drink all of Father Alvin’s church wine (exact quote unavailable). However, in the Dark World, during the fight with Spade King, we see Kris move to defend Susie without the player’s input. This is most likely their original personality taking over, as the Outside Force, if destruction is what it’s after, would instead just stand around and let Susie die; so we know Kris cares about the ones he’s befriended at least somewhat, and they definitely care a hell of a lot about Asriel, if the hot chocolate scene can be taken at face value.

What confuses me comes mostly from the ending scene: after Kris rips out the SOUL and locks it in the cage, we can move it around, indicating it belongs to us. For me, this raises several questions, namely if Kris does care about other people in Hometown, how far does it extend? Do they actually care about Susie, Ralsei, Lancer, and the other students at school? Or if they go on a rampage, will he only spare Toriel and Asgore (and/or Asriel), since they’re their immediate family? Or will no one be spared?

In short, where does Kris’ personality end and the Player’s/Outside Force’s begin?

I can’t claim to know the answer, and I doubt this wall of text makes much sense, but I also noticed something from Undertale that may explain things eventually, and it lies in the relationship between Chara and Frisk.

Specifically, let’s get into the ultra-meta aspect of it. Chara is a human, and we know by the history told of them in Undertale that they were fully autonomous: they could bake, draw, knit, scheme, and think on their own. Frisk falls into the Underground, and we, the player, control them directly, and mold them from a blank slate into a reflection of ourselves, or our mindset for a particular run. Frisk is like a vessel, but...we only take control of them after they fall. When they land on Chara’s grave.

...Sounds to me like Frisk is actually a Vessel. Just like the one we made at the beginning of deltarune. And that would make Chara, for lack of a better term, the Controller. Enough of their consciousness was still lingering to latch onto Frisk and guide at least some of their actions (narration in Pacifist/Neutral, direct action in Genocide).

But since we know that, what does that make Kris? If I had to guess, Kris is also a Vessel, like Frisk (it’s in the name, practically). However, due to their mysterious past, I’d imagine enough time has passed that Kris is slowly, very slowly, developing autonomy and a personality of their own, but is still susceptible to outside influence. But that said, who is acting as the Controller to Kris’ Vessel? Short answer: we don’t know yet. Could be any number of people. Could be the Vessel we made in the opening sequence of the game. My hypothesis is that it might actually be Asriel, since Kris looks up to them, and it’s also stated somewhere in the game that Asriel used to carry them to school when they were younger, but that guess is on shaky ground anyway.

So, yeah. That’s all I got. Not so much of a “theory” as it is me rambling and trying to connect dots separated by several continents. If you got any holes to poke in this thing, lemme know.

#the captain speaks #deltarune #kris (deltarune)#kris #deltarune theory #the captain rambles on and on and OH MY GOD SHUT UP

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afterthelastreset · 5 years

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I didn't think Azzy looked enough like Kris or Susie so I changed his color scheme. I'll upload info on Merry later. (I promised to upload Merry's bio. Please know it does contain my own headcannons for Deltarune.) Name: Princess Merry Holiday Dreemur Personality: easily flustered, shy, self conscious, pretty nice once you know her, somewhat antisocial but willing to be helpful Species: Darkner that's a mixture of monster, human, deer, and goat Age: 5 Family: Kris: Father, Ralsei: Other father, Susie: Mother, Noelle: Other mother, Asriel: Uncle, Toriel: Grandmother, Asgore: Grandfather, Kristy: Older half sister, Azzy: Older half brother, Noelle's Dad: Other grandfather Appearance: pink fur with white ear insides, pink cheeks, goat horns, red eyes, brown hair with blue ends, green shirt, red bow, blank pants, white skirt, black hooves Powers/Abilities: Very weak magic skills, and can sometimes be able to summon a sword like Kris Bonus: ( this contains my own headcannons may be updated later) After the events in Deltarune, after Susie suggested that they should go back, they did. Over time the three became closer as friends (much to Kris's family's delight) and they end up going back to visit their darkner friends during and after school through the closet. Over time the fun gang become closer and the three develop more feelings. When Kris and Susie prepare to graduate and leave school, it becomes more apparent that they may visit less. It was Ralsei who was the first to admit his feelings towards the other two, and was honestly surprised to say the least when they shared his feelings. The two eventually moved into the dark world, but do go back to the world of light to visit family. Mostly Kris. Susie is very secretive when it comes to her past. About two years after the twins were born, Kris and Susie reconnected with an old friend of there's through the local cafe. Noelle had been in a tough spot since after school. Her father had survived the illness he had, but had permanently weakened making it hard for him to move around for long periods of time, she struggled to help take care of him with her minimum wage jobs as a teacher's assistant and a part time job as a waitress at the local diner. On top of that, she had been in a once unhappy relationship with Berdly for sometime before meeting old faces. She was delighted to see her old friends with their two children, but was surprised to see a third partner with them. The four spent time catching up like old times but eventually parted ways. During the next year, the four (or usually just Noelle and Kris and Sometimes Susie) would have small greetings and meet ups in the diner and start to be come close friends again. But Noelle was having a harder time keeping her life together. Her father had to be moved to live with a few distant relatives because of the strain her financial situation was. The strain of working two jobs had taken a toll on her and she was about ready to just quit. When she got an unexpected visit from an old friend, Kris. The two talked for a while and decided to help her find a job elsewhere. It helps for a little bit when she starts working at the library full time, but overdue bills catch up to her and she was forced to foreclose her home and temporary move in with a friend.Noelle had always been a timid push over, so this was just was the end result of it. Now being homeless and a minimum wage job, there wasn't much hope for her. But things did look up when Kris offered her a special job at his home. Reluctantly she agreed, and Kris led them to the school and through the closet door. Noelle was pretty shocked when they were basically teleported to a whole different world, but Kris was quick to reassure her and take her to the palace where she was met his partners and children. It as....strange being in a darkland with strange creatures and such, but she shouldn't complain with her new position. Right? During her time there, she reconnected with her old classmates and was surprised to find out her feelings for Susie hadn't gone away. But she already had two husbands and children. There was no way she could be interested in her, right? Well, when Susie did find out, she was surprisingly ok with it. She was in a polygamy relationship after all, but she had to get the ok with her other two partners. Ralsei was a little confused at first but did agree with Kris to let them work it out. After trying to get to know Ralsei and Kris a little better, they all become closer slowly but surely. Ralsei she found out is very similar to her personality wise and morals, and Kris is still the goof ball kid that used to hide under her bed to scare her. The four eventually start to go on outings together and spending more time as a family. Merry was born the same way the twins were. By Ralsei weaving a soul from magic using their DNA but was birthed by Mother Noelle. Her name is a pun on the term Merry Christmas from Noelle's side of the family and has both Noelle's and Kris's last names. Merry is the youngest of the royal children of the two Darkland kingdoms, and the most skittish of the three siblings. Merry refers to Noelle as Mother, Susie as Mama, Kris as Daddy, and Ralsei as Papa. While she takes after Noelle figure wise, her personality is mostly Ralsei's with a sense of justice. She's a soft spoken child as Kris was and usually won't speak unless spoken too. At five years old, she's pretty smart for her age but usually keeps to herself. Like her siblings, she can summon a weapon but it's a sword like Kris. Relatonships: Azzy: She's closer to her brother than her sister because they're similar personality wise and both have similar struggles with magic. They often study together and help each other out with their magic lessons. Kristy: Quiet just like her, she's her protector often following around her and Azzy and keeping them from trouble. Her temper does scare her from time to time though and she wishes she'd be less forceful. Kris: Best Human ever. Like the twins, Merry has no idea Kris was adopted by the Dreemur family and as she's part goat, doesn't know why he doesn't look like the rest of his family. He's soft spoken like her and often takes him to visit their grandparents and Uncle Asriel in the lightner world. Susie: She's Mama to Merry and the most protective of her other than Kristy. She likes to try to teach her how to fight to protect herself but usually there practices turn into playfights. When on the surface, Susie will often steer her and her siblings clear of certain parts of the town for 'reasons'. Noelle: Mother dearest. Best mother she could ask for. She makes the best holiday cookies and often baby's the children and spoils them much to Susie's protest. Though she will sometimes cry when she takes her to visit her grandpa on her side for some reason. Ralsei: Floof Dad. She loves to snuggle up to her fluffy daddy when tired and listen to his stories of the old Darkner history and eat all the baked goods he and Noelle made together. He's the closest to her out of her four parents and the one to share her values of Mercy and kindness. Toriel: Her grandmother is an older more motherly/fluffy version of Papa Ralsei. She loves it when Kris or Susie takes them to visit her grandparents for Thanksgiving or Christmas. (Though As gore is her favorite grandparent.) Asgore: Best grandpa in the world. He's a bit of a push over and she wishes he'd sometimes grow more of a backbone, but he gives the best hugs and she loves to see all the pretty flowers in his big garden. Mr. Hoiday: Merry doesn't get to see her sick grandpa much, but when she does he likes to tell embarrassing stories about her mother and is cheerful. J.K.: The strange Imp boy loves to make her smile and is a blast to be around. His energy and tricks always manage to make her smile. Pearlescent: The deer monster was the one who made her and her siblings crowns. She doesn't see her often but when she does, she likes to hang out with her as they are both deer monsters and Pearlie makes very beautiful objects. King Lancer: since Lancer is good friends with her parents, they sometimes see each other when they visit his kingdom. The giant spade can come off as intimidating, but is actually very down to earth with kids. He often gives them kindly advice on magic and their kingdom, but sometimes he can get a little too into his splat noises.

#Merry #Azzy #Deltarune

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