#LOL. totally did not impact me at all. totally is not a wound that informs every breath i take and every thought i have. not at all | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

darrowsrising · 5 years

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Hi! Hope you don’t mind that I wanted to respond. I think I have an addiction to literary criticism. Ugh, why am I like this? PS I can rant/talk about other stuff! Anything in the series you wish you saw discussed more?

I don’t agree with this:“a character doesn’t have flaws/their flaws aren’t significant if they don’t impact their narrative” — Interesting. I mean this in a completely sincere way: it did not occur to me that a reader wouldn’t be bothered by a lack of results stemming from flaws on the page. But we all want different things from our reading experience, right? And knowing you feel this way I understand where you’re coming from better.

For me, the measure of how important something is is directly linked to how it impacts the story (or how it impacts a character’s personality/development). Having a flaw that doesn’t impact the character or the story in any way is underwhelming for me. It’s setup with no payoff. It’s a Chekhov’s Gun that doesn’t go off in the third act.

I agree with you that not every flaw needs to impact the character in some huge negative way. Like, if a character is clumsy, I don’t need them to trip and fall to their death to have a satisfying character arc. But I want to see them run into a sofa or something. If you aren’t going to address a character’s flaws in any way, why even bother including those flaws? I think it’s great that we as readers can dissect plot points and come up with our own interpretations and analysis of characters, but with something as important as character development it feels cheap if none of it is actually on the page.

she chose to play by her father’s rules (manipulate, win at all costs etc.) and she intetionally put herself through the ringer I consider that a mistake on her part. - I consider what she did a mistake too. And I’ll give it to you, I believe it did cause her pain. I just wish this had informed some of her actions or impacted her relationship with her allies.

I wish there was more exploration of her reformist views, — I agree! It’s clear as early as RR that she has sympathy for low colors, but what was her vision for a more fair system? Virginia is a planner so there’s no way she didn’t have some idea of how she would have changed things. However, given her reaction to finding out Darrow was a red her views weren’t always aligned with the rising. It’s disappointing to me that we don’t get more or her opinions on this.

She sacrificed herself. She did what Adrius or Nero would have done and it was painful for her. She bend her own morals to protect her family and she is the kind of person who has a lot of respect and love for her moral compass. - I didn’t see it as bending her morals, actually. Her morals tell her she needs to protect family and she does, even if it makes her miserable. I see this more as sticking to her moral code than bending it. Honestly I’m more mad at Pierce Brown than Virginia about this (I know that sounds crazy lol). She’s so smart he couldn’t have given her something better/more interesting to do than sleep with Cassius?

You think Virginia manipulates everyone in the same way - lol ouch. Honestly I do think Virginia manipulates people, intentionally and unintentionally. Virginia says herself she’s always been able to manipulate people. And I don’t mind! I think it’s really interesting. I just wanted to know more. She’s someone who wants to Do The Right Thing, so how does she view this ability of hers? Does it bother her that she can manipulate people? Does it scare her? Does it remind her of her brother? When she brings it up in that conversation with Darrow in GS I thought oh cool, is she going to be questioning her relationships with friends now? will she hesitate to reach out to new people because she thinks she’ll accidentally manipulate somebody? But it never goes anywhere. And I think this does a disservice to her. Alternatively, if Virginia isn’t supposed to be someone who manipulates people, why even have that line in the book?

I do think she felt bad about using Cassius, but it wasn’t as impactful to her as it was to be something she wasn’t. - agreed (and it makes me feel bad for Cassius, because I think this whole relationship really messed him up and she was able to more or less shrug it off)

In Morning Star there is a big emphasis on the fact that she chose to save Orion and the rest of the fleet and even let Orion have the fleet. It was because she chose to do the right thing. — Okay but to be fair, she didn’t have much of a choice but to save the rest of the fleet, right? I mean at the end of Golden Son her options are: fight the sovereign (who just killed her father and who she thinks has killed Darrow) or give in. To fight she needs a fleet. Orion has been in charge so why mess up a good thing? It’s not exactly a hard choice.

I do feel that her trust in her family was a flaw too: she was really willing to trust Nero that he’ll give the Reformers a chance - he was going to kill them and let Darrow lick her wounds. That was really naive of her. — I agree her trust in her father was naive. But she never has to confront that. How much more impactful would it have been if she had to choose between her father and the rising in golden son? What happens at the Triumph forces her hand. Instead of choosing between her father and the rising she’s choosing between the sovereign and the rising. That’s an easy chose. Because of that her decision to “save the fleet” just didn’t have the same impact for me.

To be honest, everyone’s flaws in the Red Rising Trilogy (ok, maybe almost everyone…) are a thing of interpretation. not everyone has to suffer for them. Not everyone’s flaws impact them on page./The focus is Darrow and we don’t see other characters dealing with their flaws on page either - look a Victra: her narrative isn’t directly impacted - it’s more implied than anything and there is nothing wrong with that. /The most on-page development in the trilogy is Darrow’s and that is totally valid - it’s his pov, his story, his views. All the other characters that get any development get on and off-page development - Sevro being the most proeminent, but we can also include Ragnar. Cassius’ development is mostly done off-page. - I agree that in this trilogy about Darrow there isn’t enough time to fully flesh out other characters. But one of the things I love about this series is its ability to make characters come alive with just a few scenes.

I love Victra so let’s look at her. Her narrative is directly impacted by her flaws. She has a super complicated relationship with her sister and it messes with her head. Victra says she has poison in her veins — we as readers can interpret that a bit but however you see it you know Victra is upset. She says she’ll just ruin everything and breaks up with Sevro. That’s a direct impact on her narrative because of her flaws. And it’s all on the page (Sevro tells us the whole story).

I also want to bring up my favorite Victra scene here. When Darrow and his council are all clamoring to torture Cassius in MS it’s Victra who stops them when she shows them the scars from her own torture. It’s a beautiful moment and it really highlights how complex Victra is. Victra is as tough as they come but she can be vulnerable too. I think it’s interesting that Darrow observes at this moment “I don’t think Mustang would ever let her guard down in public like this.”

Sevro, Ragnar, and Cassius all get enough on page development that I can connect the dots in their character arcs. Sevro has always been an outcast, and so when he sympathizes with other outcasts it makes a lot of sense. We see interactions between him and his father and we get a sense of their strange but ultimately loving relationship, so we can see how the death of his father would impact him. We also see how vicious he is so it’s no surprise when he leads the rising down a path they probably shouldn’t go. We see him fail on the page, and we see him grow when he ultimately decides he wants to stop the cycle of violence and save Cassius’s life.

In RR Cassius’s moral code is set up. He doesn’t want to hurt innocent people, but he’s got a lot of dumb ideas about honor and he’s under a lot of pressure from his family. In that way he’s a lot like Virginia (struggling with loyalty to his family vs what he thinks is right). His flaw is his loyalty to the system and because of that loyalty everything he loves is stripped away from him. And we see it all on the page. And we see little scenes with him (he covers Darrow with his cape, tells Darrow about the nukes, and has whiskey with Darrow). Every time you see him he’s a little changed. I think you can trace his arc very well.

Some others: Tactius can’t choose a side (flaw) and pays for it with his life. Roque is so proud of his color (flaw) that he takes his own life.

All this is not to say that Virginia had to be more like Victra. Sevro, Cassius, or anybody else to have a good character arc. My only point here is that PB is really good at writing flaws/character arcs/character development in minor characters. I just wanted more from what he did with Virginia.

Virginia’s hatred for showing vulnerability affects her relationship with Darrow in Morning Star. - how? I’m genuinely asking. She keeps her distance but Darrow sees that all as his fault. Her inability to be vulnerable never makes Darrow question whether he loves her. She never has to be vulnerable to achieve anything.

The Rising isn’t too pleased with having her as an ally - see Dancer. — this conflict lasts for one scene so it never felt super impactful (in MS anyway. in Iron Gold I think it’s explored better).

Her relationship with Victra doesn’t go smoothly - Victra was the first to insinuate that Virginia only joined them for power, because she couldn’t explain it otherwise. — Ok, this is an example of how Victra was mean to Virginia. That’s not really illustrating any of Virginia’s flaws. Sorry, that was nit picky. The main thing for me here is that again, this conflict lasts for all of one scene. However, I’m glad PB didn’t press this point because (as mentioned later) there aren’t a ton of female friendships in the original trilogy and it would have been a bummer to have these two fighting.

Deanna doesn’t shy away from calling out bullshite when she sees it. So I highly doubt that Mustang would have (manipulated) her. — I agree. Deanna genuinely likes Virginia. And…fine. It’s kind of boring but whatever. I guess this is supposed to show us that Deanna can tell that Virginia really loves Darrow. But then, Deanna doesn’t like Victra and I firmly believe that Victra loves Darrow (as a friend) too. IDK, I think PB just liked to contrast Virginia and Victra.

As for Virginia testing Darrow? It was a trust test. — I just — this isn’t how trust works. When you trust someone you’re honest with them. You don’t “test” them.

Because they lost that trust they had. - This is so interesting. I’ve been listening to the Howler Pod podcast (it’s really good) and they’ve been re-capping Golden Son. And one thing I forgot about that book was how many times Virginia confronted Darrow about letting her in. She’s no dummy, and she knew he was keeping something back from her. She begs him time and again to let her in and tell her the truth. There’s that great scene where she’s hitting him with the practice razor to try to get him to open up to her.

And in the end of GS, he does.

Darrow tells Virginia the truth about himself even though it’s really dangerous for him and all the people relying on him. He tells her the truth even though they are finally back together and he doesn’t really have to tell her.

He takes a leap of faith. He trusts her with this secret. With his life’s purpose. He trusts her.

And…she leaves him. She doesn’t kill him sure but she does let him twist in the wind. I completely understand that she was shocked but he thinks she might turn him in to the sovereign. It seems like she could have at least gotten a message to him to say “hey I’m not going to rat you out but I need a minute to process this.”

So when this whole trust thing comes up in morning star I’m left wondering if I read a different book lol. Darrow trusted Virginia with his whole life and with the whole rising. She knew he was keeping something back from her. She’s logical and she’s a genius. It seems wrong to me that Darrow is the one who gets all the blame for breaking the “trust” between them. He did trust her.

I was just re-reading MS to try to find a quote to use, and in that scene between Darrow and Cassius, Cassius says, “I never thought about the weight on you. All that time among us. You could never talk to anyone.” And I kind of think — shouldn’t Virginia be saying that to him? It’s presented in the book like she feels betrayed and its up to Darrow to make things right. Where’s her compassion for him? If you say she saved the fleet, that benefitted her as much as it did Darrow.

And it needed rebuilding. It was rebuilt on the ice. - Darrow says “I felt like I proved myself on the ice, but it hasn’t gone away.” Implying that even after the ice Virginia is still testing him.

But what she really wanted to see was - what kind of world does Darrow want for the Colors? Can this world include their son? Is Darrow just warlord? Because that is what the Sons of Ares are considered - especally after what Harmony did. Mustang knew Darrow au Andromedus: a highly skilled Peerless Scarred, so skilled he was saw almost as an Iron Gold, an orphan with many ambitions and a quest for glory, she saw a good friend to his mates, she saw someone who broke paradigms to suit himself or his moral compass, she saw someone who never used Pinks, never abused Browns and respected other Colors, she saw someone who murmured an off-Color name in his feverish sleep, she saw much of Darrow. But she never expected him to be a Red. SHe felt as if she never knew him at all. And it’s not a great thing, but it is understandable. - Yes, I understand how she felt all this. But it’s not really fair to Darrow, is it? I feel like MS reduces their relationship to something so one sided. It’s all about how Darrow has to prove himself to Virginia. I’ll admit my criticism is subjective here, but if you want to build trust with someone and get to know the real them, isn’t the first step by being honest with them? Virginia never voices any of the concerns you mentioned above until the very end of the book. I don’t really connect with their relationship because of this lack of communication.

In Iron Gold, we see the consequences of her actions more than the consequences of her flaws: — I agree! But I think her actions are her flaws

I am pretty sure every POV character minus Darrow has something against her. - Lysander seemed ambivalent to her, Ephraim hates everybody, and Lyria…I tracked down Lyria’s reaction to seeing Virginia: “years of anger, resentment, now compromised by the subtle beauty of her, by the rolling power of her calm voice…she was tall, beautiful. But that’s not the impression she left on me No, the Sovereign is tried. What would it be like, to be responsible for so many lives?” I left out a few things but the passage stresses how Virginia is “brilliant, perfect, beautiful” a lot. And Lyria’s anger fades. IDK, it reads to me like Lyria sees her and is like, oh she’s so pretty I sympathize with her now. Little underwhelming to me when I think about all the reasons Lyria had to be angry with Virginia.

Another mistake I think she made was severing so much of her power - she’s partly at fault for the rise of the Red Hand and the Syndicate. And she’s partly responsible for the fact that the Republic is divived so much: her string of pardons pissed a lot of people off and rightly so, but on the other hand it isn’t like she had much choice — i agree in Iron Gold we see real fallout from her decisions, and I’m hoping we get even more in Dark Age

I do wish there were more interactions between her and other females, in Golden Son, especially. I wish there was more exploration of her pregnancy, her relationship with Niobe, Thraxa, Xana, the Arcos women (who remained her allies). - Agreed. I do chalk this up to the fact that the books are only so long and you can’t fit everything in, but hopefully we get more in DA

So if you’re willing to really give Virginia a chance, I do believe you won’t be dissapointed. But if you’re not…well, we can always agree to disagree. — It’s not even that I want to “give her a chance” it’s that I see how she could be a more interesting character (to me anyway). I don’t hate her now. I just wanted more.

Astrea:

Ok, so, I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. But it's ok. It's not like we aren't respectful about it.

I can understand where you are comming from and I respect the fact that you don't like Virginia. And I never, at any point, tried to change your mind. I'm sorry if it ever came out that way. I'm not here to change opinions, I'm here to give my take on thing, my interpretation of these books. I'm not big on saying I critique books, I just give my honest opinion on them. Me saying that I'm a critic would make it seem like what I say has much more value than the average person and that's not true. I'm no George Călinescu.

I won't delve into comparing Virginia's journey with Cassius's or Victra's, but I do stand by the fact that all of them were dealt mostly off-page and all are valid. It's just a matter of interpretation which will end with a never-ending back and forth I refuse to engage in.

From what you said in your response I really want to adress some things. I'll just say what I think, of course, you can disagree, what I say is not absolute truth, it's just my take.

Virginia's journey in the books was mostly off page and I think that it can be traced well enough to make for an interesting character. That is my opinion. That's how I interpret her story. You obviously disagree with that and that's your right.

I think that in Morning Star, her relationship with Darrow suffers the consequences of both their actions. They reconcile bit by bit on the ice (between the attack at the Peace Treaty and the siege on the Gold Gods, they have some rocky steps to deal with and they still have their moments when they shut the other out and there are a lot of fade to black scenes where anything can happen - including disscussing feelings and stuff, although Darrow states that 'there are a lot of things between them' yet they kinda choose to be together inspite of them, because life is short and they can die at any time...which is a trope I find easy to make annoying, but I feel it works in the Red Rising series, because it is so focused on action). A lot of their reconnection takes place during the time they spend on the poles of Mars to get the Obsidians and it's not something instant, but I get that it can be considered unsatisfactory. But Darrow isn't instantly trustful of her - he himself tells Victra that he will sacrifice Mustang if necessary.

Trust is not always black and white, sometimes you need some reasons to trust. And Virginia needed some reasons: with Darrow believed to be dead, Virginia continued to live for her son and she wanted to know (after she found out he is still alive) if there could be a future for her son in the world Darrow tries to build or does he want to just turn the pyramid upside down. Now, I don't know if this is a right or wrong reason, but I think it is understandable. When Pierce Brown came to Romania he talked a little bit about the fact that Virginia as a mother needed to be assure her son's future, because he is half Gold and half Red.

I think that motherhood changed her a lot, not having Darrow near her during pregnancy might have played a part too - she states that she dreads being left alone again by him. But I can accept it and I get it that other people don't.

Another reason was the fact that Darrow had all the right to be angry at Golds and want vengeance. He lied to her about his identity for many years and he hid a lot of things from her, so she wasn't sure about some important things when it came to him. Plus, it's easy to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that Darrow planned to assassinate Nero to obtain power and change the Society. She wanted to kbow what he wanted to do with that power.

I don't know if it was fair to Darrow or not, but her reasoning was valid to me.

What she actually wanted to know about him after the ice was how he is with his family - that's when she was absolutely sure he just wanted a prosperous future for his family. Afterwards I think it was just about Pax, how would he feel about Pax, if she should tell him. Because immediately after Darrow says that about the 'trust test', she tries to tell him about Pax and ends up just showing him.

I think that, while Pierce had to create some tension between them, he didn't insist on it or on explaining their relationship that much, because he simply doesn't write too much about romance. He focuses more on action and that's valid. I don't complain, I love what we got until now as far as romance goes, although I'd admit that Victra and Sevro coming back together because of a life-threatening situation was a bit boring as a trope, but in the end it was pretty well-executed. I've read pretty bad ones and this one (and those between Darrow and Mustang) wasn't bad at all compared to those.

In Iron Gold they have a huge fallout due to miscommunication and lack of proper communication and that's a good thing for them, because they are not telepaths. As much as they know each other, that doesn't compensate for communication in their relationship.

Secondly, the whole manipulation thing...just because it comes easy to do, doesn't mean she does it all the time. I say that because it comes easy to me too. Everytime I want something from someone I get it through sweet, kind words, friendliness, not too much, not too little, just enough, some interest taht is at least half true and you get what you want from people (I got lots of favours from teachers this way and lots of good quality courses from fellow students...and lots of bonus points at annoyingly hard classes). It's easy to do, but honestly, if you want genuine relationships with people, you don't do this. It's not like it's some uncontrollable behavior. It's always a clear delimitation between manipulating people to gain something (or to make them like you for a higher purpose) and trying to make yourself pleasant for the purpose to build a relationship. Deanna is the kind of person who sees through bullshite and doesn't shy away from saying it like it is. And honestly, I don't see a reason why Mustang wouldn't want a genuine relationship with Deanna. Her mother died when she was young and she obviously respects Deanna because she asks her for what to do about Pax and Darrow. Plus, Deanna watched the interactions between Darrow and Mustang and I think she made up her mind about her through Virginia's action, not by just pretty words. That is my opinion, though. That's how I saw it

Lastly, I think Lyria hated Virginia for so long and once face to face with her she was at a loss for words. She blamed her for a lot of the bad things in her life, but when she looked at her she couldn't find what to say to her because what she saw didn't match her perception of her. Like when you spend time hating on a person, but face to face you just can't justify your feelings. Now, that combined with the fact that she was the only one willing to listen to her and not torture her or just kill her, I'd bet she was willing to chnage her mind about hating her.

As for Lysander, he may have named her Conqueror, but that doesn't mean he likes the fact that he's not on the throne or what Virginia did with grandma's Empire. Not to mention that Lysander insinuates his support for his godfather a lot - he's quick to point out what the Republican forces destroyed with savagery on Mars, but it's Cassius who reminds him that Magnus is not a slagging saint either.

Plus, Julia au Bellona, Dancer, Sefi...they all have to certain degrees a lot of resentment towards her. Julia because she's...Julia. And Dancer and Sefi...well, mostly because she is Gold and then, because her policies aren't vegenful enough for their tastes. Though, I agree that for a Gold is hard to understand other Colors (being married to a Red and having a son it's not going to make her perfect in understanding all Colors), it was the only way the Rising could win without having to destroy the entire Gold Color. Because as Darrow said it and as Roque showed it - Gold won't bend for Red. They'll bend for one of their own.

Well, that's my take on it. I'm not claiming absolute truth about it. I just felt like I should say what I thought about some stuff.

To me, Virginia au Augustus is an amazing character and I think she'll be even more amazing once we get into her head more.To you, she just has/had the potential to be one. I doubt we'll ever come to a consensus, but that's not a bad thing.

Anyway, I'm not going to insist about this subject anymore than necessary, because I feel satisfied with where it came to. I understand that my interpretation and yours are different and I respect that. If you want to add your take on what I said above, be my guest, I'll read it, post it, respect it. No problem!

It'd be awesome to talk about something else regarding Red Rising. You stated something similar when we talked long ago about the GS plot, but we never got around to talking about something else and that was too bad.

Hope you'll pop more often in my inbox, honestly. If you did, I'm sorry, I didn't know it was you and the previous statement has no use.

Here are some stuff I'd like to see more talked about:

Lilath and Antonia

The Valii-Raths

How Darrow's superhuman abilities are balanced out through out the books

How Darrow ends up inspiring characters in the books and how it affects their lives (and his)

Capitalism and the Solar Republic - why Sun Industries prospers, but the working class doesn't (add speculations, we have little stuff about it to make concrete arguments)

Reds and the Vox Populi

Martial arts, individual fighting styles and warfare in Red Rising

Traditions in various parts of the galaxy

Weaponary, tools, guns, ships etc.

Apollonius liking the Sauds might play a part in solving the issues with the Rim Dominion? How the hell will peace be restored when the Republic is being attacked on all fronts: the remains of Octavia's empire, the Rim and from the inside.

If you guys have any other ideas, please add in a reblog. 🤗

Howl on!

Later edit: I'm sorry, I made some grammar mistakes and a pleonasm. I tried to fix as much as I could. Promise I'm not dumb, I just think too much and try to write all the ideas at once...that's dumb, but that'a how my brain works. Again, sorry!

#red rising trilogy #iron gold trilogy #virginia au augustus #mustang #sovereign #lionheart #darrow of lykos #darrow au andromedus #reaper #submission

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