#Lirin: not your...

[nevertheless-moving]

Hesina Willshaper AU

Step one canon divergence: Amaram's army doesn't do the kind thing. Kaladin's listed next of kin are sent a letter stiffly informing them that their son is a deserter and, thanks to the highmarshall's mercy, has been sold into slavery.

Step two canon divergence: a light spren has started following Hesina around.

The letter reaches hearthstone.

Hesina cries the bones of the first ideal through labor pangs. Their wretched diamond lamp grows slightly dimmer during childbirth.

Hesina and Lirin discuss if there's anyway they could possibly find their son and pay his slave debt. They're not optimistic.

Hesina talks with her lightspren.

Lirin and Hesina talk again about trying to find their son, now that Oroden is starting to be weaned.

Hesina appears to have grown taller. No one but the two of them seem to be aware but they're worried other future changes might be more noticeable.

Hesina and Lirin realize that she can mold rock as if it was clay with stormlight. A spark of hope for freeing their son emerges.

The two leave town.

They find a slave market in the nearest city. They see other parent's sons, but not their own.

Hesina swears to free those in bondage. Stormlight starts coming easier.

They make a tunnel. Rebellion follows. Lirin is horrified by the violence (the violence is not actually that bad all things considered. a couple guards dead. some bystanders frightened. Fair amount of property damage as they rob the military barracks food supply, steal every sphere that's not nailed down. and also steal the spheres that are nailed down. (Lirin won't admit it but the stealing from lamps part is kindof fun.)).

Many of those they freed flee. Some return to slavery willingly, scared of retribution. Many decide to follow the Radiant woman who has vowed to see others like them freed.

The group proceed to the next town. They find another slave market. They make a tunnel. There is more resistance than last time, clearly they were warned something might happened. Hesina kills a man.

Lirin is terrified by what his wife is becoming.

Hesina swears to shelter those without homes. The lightspren forms an unbreakable hammer, perfect for knocking crem free from buildings. And for knocking down men.

A now larger motley group seeks shelter in a mountain town razed in one of Alethkar's many skirmishes over the last decades. Hesina builds homes. Lirin begs her to stay here, to stop fighting before she goes to far down this path, not to go to war. The slaves they've freed are split, many wanting to stay, hide, some wanting to fight and free more, with a radiant at their head, there's a real chance to change things. Hesina lingers, practicing, spends some time falling in and out of shadesmar.

Lirin and Hesina separate.

Lirin stays with Oroden and the noncombatants. Hesina leads those who want to fight to another city, still trying to find their son, still trying to free everyone's children.

The town settles into a routine. Hesina and Lirin miss one another. This is the first time they've gone longer than two days without seeing each other in the last 25 years, and the two days was only when Lirin had to travel to where someone had overturned a cart on the road nearby and Hesina had to stay and watch the children, too young to travel. besides that, it had been every day. they keep turning to talk to each other.

While the army is gone, the free town is attacked by those trying to reclaim her property.

Hesina swims deliberately through shadesmar for the first time. reaches lirin just in time.

Lirin accepts that not fighting won't stop the violence. (It breaks him just a little bit)

Hesina shouts that one person's freedom ends where another's begins. She vows to fight against powers which would rather see their people in cages then homes. A thousand light spren rise up to grant her strength.

(yes I know she's moving fast through the oaths. but she's always been a thoughtful woman and she raised two children who asked difficult questions and now shes mother to another several hundred. honestly she had already worked through some of these concepts before they became actionable on such a grand scale.)

Lirin vows to support his wife through whatever trials the Almighty seems inclined to put her through.

The lightspren, who has started to get some memories back, remembers Oathgate Spren not terribly far from here by physical realm measurements, guarding a hidden human city

the stone remembers the way the radiants once traveled.

The path to a kingdom in the sky is slow — there are many cages to break on the way.

Kaladin doesn't know it right away, because people weren't exactly telling slaves about the freedom riots, but slave wagons start having harder and harder times reaching the shattered planes after him.

Someone mocks Lirin for having a wife so determined to pursue the masculine art of war. Lirin gets pissy and decides to show them by learning to read and write to help support the administrative side of his wife's kingdom wide asskicking.

The highprinces lead a fairly successful misinformation campaign about the slave riots, lots of accusations of rampant violence, the dregs of society lashing out, you can probably imagine

The ongoing rebellion is large enough that word trickles to the bridge crews, encouraging bridge four's hope for escaping, while also making it substantially more daunting, as the crews are even better guarded than canon.

Rumors of a female radiant swirl around. Most people assume it's a woman in shardplate with some sort of tunneling fabrial, which is still pretty crazy, but several major players Take Note

A very large and tired huddled mass of people reach Urithiru. there's just enough squires, and two new willshapers with their own oaths, to make tunnels through the shattered planes and reach the oathgate without being seen by the alethi armies

the parshendi army is another story, but some are willing to take a chance listening to the neshua kadal, and come with them.

The political implications of Dalinar freeing 1000 slaves is slightly more complex, especially considering the rebellions have been impacting Sadeas the hardest

About a week after being freed, Kaladin hires a spanreed intermediary to write home and find out if his hometown is alright (again, a lot of misinformation and rumors about the violence of the riots)

Is informed by Laral that his family left town looking for him shortly before the riots started, were presumed dead

Kaladin is under the impression that 1) his parents are dead because of him 2) the Rebellion is not the righteous fallback plan that he and the men were hoping it was.

Hesina has many reasons to go to the shattered planes. Nearest part of the trade network for food and necessary goods. Many slaves to be freed from there, and a part of her still hopes to find her son, even thought its been so long. Home of Alethkar's political leaders, the source of Alethkar's slavery.

I have spent. A LOT of time imagining many possible reunions between kaladin and his mom in my highly specific high oath hesenia au. She has a couple faces she could wear when visiting the planes. Brightlady. Radiant. Cagebreaker. Queen of Urithiru (not her real title, they're tentatively trying the Listener council model, but they know what the Alethi will understand). Even darkeyed mother, if she and Lirin approach slowly from a different direction. Honestly, pleased as I am with all of the above, a lot is flexible, the key here is kaladin going "MOM??" In some fashion One possible Reunion Here

Thank you @sorchasolas for conversation and the urithiru ideas and for leading me to actually write all this down <3

[spacetimeaccordionfolder]

Sadeas in Words of Radiance hears about Kaladin surviving a second highstorm outside and starts thinking about that one time Dalinar (as a like mid 20 year old) walked outside during a high storm (before riddens) because he couldn't find his favorite knife and then stopped an assassination attempt by stabbing the would be assassin with his own knife, then proceeded to eat food with that knife that still had the assassin's blood on it and all this was during a diplomatic meeting. and Sadeas has a "oh Almighty there's two of them" moment. Oh well at least this one is less bloodthirsty, isn't an alcoholic, and is possibly smarter. wait that's worse.

Someone somewhere proposed a "what if people in WoR thought Kaladin was Dalinar's illegitimate son" and I'm thinking about Sadeas and Ialai debating whether or not to start/ help along/ squelch that idea. That rumor could further discredit Dalinar (he had an affair. with a darkeyed woman. during a war.), possibly cause issues with the Kholin line of succession, insinuate the only reason Kaladin has a job is nepotism or blackmailing Dalinar, or possibly cause a rift between Adolin and Dalinar. But it could also give this weird 20 year old more credit and social standing. and lower class folks already see him as some kind of miracle so that's not great. Dalinar's calling the captain of the guard "son" in front of other highprinces and generals and they both have a certain vibe and bluntness and both have been outside during highstorms (very different contexts though). The two decide to wait and see before they further rumors themselves or fake any records, and then the weeping happens and they hear that all the Kholins but Elhokar are going on a trip to kill the parashendi -assumed death sentence- and realize the captain of the guard stayed behind as he's injured and they realize that if they had confirmed the rumor then there could be some issues if/when every other kholin ends up dead while trying to kill all the parashendi. Ialai and Sadeas silently agree that they're glad they barely pushed the rumors - just enough that some folks kept talking about it but not enough to make them credible, basically a 'no comment' or a 'hmm well a lot of things did happen at war.' and then Urithriu is found and oh hey there aren't line of succession issues here. "Cause line of succession issues/ strife" goes back on their metaphorical conspiracy planning chalk board and then Sadeas dies and Ialai has to erase the chalkboard quickly.

[friendlyghostintheattic]

Imagine, you are checking out a patient but are unable to help because you are a primary care doctor and not a therapist (your son just invented that last week), and then the queen’s boy toy jester comes barging in, tells you to fuck off, kicks you out of your office, starts begging your patient to take part of the weapon that killed God Himself, then your patient disappears into thin air and the jester is violently and literally vaporized, leaving you covered in blood.

POV: your are Lirin Stormblessed

[august-cabin7]

SAY IT LOUDER OP

I don't understand Lirin hate tbh. I feel like if you put yourself in his shoes for a second it all clears up immediately, even if you still don't agree with him.

He's always been a pacifist, with a pretty straightforward train of thought behind it. (Violence will always net more harm than good.) Despite this he spends all of his energy in the book 1 flashbacks fighting. Stealing the spheres, speaking up to Roshone, going to the dinner party, it'is all a means of resistance for him. Where does it land him? Both sons (plus rillir) dead, and him and Roshone both left shadows of themselves. He's left to sit with this for years before Kaladin comes back to correct the idea, and in the time, his worldview shifts from violence will always net more harm than good to conflict will always net more harm than good. I don't agree, but I totally get it!

Finally, Kaladin's back, and he has his son back to cherish and keep safe but wuh oh! Kaladin is actually conflict generator supreme for a myriad of reasons inside and outside his own control. And Lirin recognizes his words of pacifism carry no weight or obligation to anyone else, a big part of Vorinism is freedom (supposedly.)¹ but Kaladin is his son, who he shaped and had expectations for, and who ultimately listened to his teachings up to following Tien to the army for his protection.

I absolutely get why he pushed Kaladin so hard to follow his pacifism in RoW. He was so scared of losing him again, and the constant fighting wasn't helping Kal! He was freezing up on the battlefield! He was barely able to hold the scalpel after the fight with the Regal and the Stormform! From Lirin's perspective Kaladin is tearing himself apart throwing himself into the fight so of course he yells at him for diving headfirst straight back into the war blender and attacking the singers in the surgery room.

Most importantly, the story addresses this-Lirin is changed by the end of RoW, but everyone likes to kick him for how his trauma manifested still :(

1. I wanna do a little write up on this bc it's not stated explicitly but something I got from heavy subtext

[jennydolfen]

“Your son is a soldier, Lirin. A soldier who inherited his father’s determination, skill, and compassion. You tell me honestly. Who would you rather have out there fighting? Some crazed killer who enjoys it, or the boy you trained to care?”

(Rhythm of War)

He had promised to help Azir. But why? Because his mother had trained him to care. As Dalinar had worked to make Adolin into a weapon, Evi had worked to make Adolin into one that had meaning.

(Wind and Truth)

I loved how those two passages rhymed. Kaladin and Adolin - the boys that care. I love them so much.

Alternate eye colour for Kaladin, and alternative state of awakening for Adolin's armour. 😂

[lizardson]

I understand people who hate lirin (he is a very frustrating character) but I also think they tend to ignore that he spent years believing he killed both his sons because he refused to give in to roshone. The way he treats kaladin is awful, but it comes from a place of intense shame and regret, not a place of judgement. When he tells kal that he should've obeyed and proven himself to his masters instead of fighting against them, he says it because that's what he wished he had done. Lirin in RoW is not the same person from the WoK flashbacks and his extreme and irrational moral rigidity is the result of trauma and grief, not just "he's a surgeon so he thinks killing is bad."

TLDR lirin is more complex than people give him credit for and also your son miraculously returning from the dead doesn't negate believing for years that you killed him by having the audacity to fight against your oppressors. thank you for coming to my ted talk

[venomatemychocolate]

Been thinking about Kaladin's "death"; more so, about his absence, and the impact it will have on other people's lives.

I imagine it will take a while for word to get around: the world did just kind of end, mobility is greatly reduced and the only witnesses are stuck in Shinovar with no stormlight, so i imagine they would all learn it in different moments. Lirin and Hesina would probably be the first, since we can assume that Szeth will head for Urithiru.

Imagine losing your son, just after having found out he's alive after believing him long gone; there would be grief, and regret, but they've already grieved him, and those few weeks would soon seem no more than a dream.

All the people that have known him first as a man, as the unkillable Kaladin Stormblessed, wouldn't believe at first; then, after hearing Szeth's story, it would start to sink in.

Adolin would be next; communications with Azish would be the one of the first priorities. Another friend lost. Those would be difficult years for Adolin, apart from his wife, brother, aunt, and cousin. It'd probably take him some time to process it amidst everything else. Maybe he never would.

Shallan would know from Adolin; it would take her unprepared, and leave her feeling numb. It would be a hard decade for her too, almost completely alone without ever seeing the sun or her loved ones; she and Adolin i think would believe only after a long time.

Then, of course, there would be the whole of bridge four, Vyre included. They wouldn't believe, not even for a second. They'd laugh, tell the story of the highstorm, delight at the thought of people's expressions at Kaladin's newest impossible escape.

Then they'd hear Szeth say that he buried him.

They'd falter. But they would still wait for him.

That's the worst of it. In all of them there would be hope; with the passing of years, ever faintest, ever smaller.

Until only a handful remained.

And that's when he would come back. Herald, brown-eyed, hope incarnate.

I think he'd be horrified to learn how he made them all suffer...but touched beyond words that some STILL believed.

[tintagliat]

Yes, Lirin, what a wonderful thing to say to your very much suicidal son! I'm sure this will have no horrible consequences 🙂

[spacetimeaccordionfolder]

Did Raboniel "I want to find a way to help the Fused who are unstable" NoLastName ever find out about the whole Battle Shock therapy thing because. I. I feel like she should have? Post ROW au where Raboniel lives and Dalinar's like "hey we need a way to help these 7000 year old soldiers Let's send this 21 and a half year old." and Raboniel's eye twitches. This 21 and a half year old who has figured out a new way to treat mental illness? The one who they've all been looking for during the occupation? Whose notes she could have totally had access to this whole time? I mean she didn't try that on the Fused so why not try that on the Heralds? Navani has a type and it's leaders who are war criminals who are mildly scared of Navani's intelligence and want to help unstable 7000 year old people

[the-overanalyzer]

Imagine being Lirin at the end of WaT, having Wit kick you out of your own operating room so he can talk to your patient, and then when you go back in because there are people with treatable injuries waiting, not only are both of them gone, but at least one of them seems to have fucking exploded.

[supreme-leader-stoat]

Absolutely phenomenal that like 90% of the circumstances that ultimately led to Kaladin becoming a Herald were set up, directly or indirectly, by Moash/Vyre.

Moash tries to assassinate Elhokar, giving Kaladin a crisis of conscience that lets him swear the Third Ideal.

Moash assassinates/imprisons Jezrien for Odium, leaving the Oathpact with an empty space and in need of repair.

Vyre successfully pushes Kal over the edge in Hearthstone, forcing Dalinar's hand to take him off of active duty and forcing him to find a new role in becoming a therapist, which directly sets up his role in treating Szeth and the Heralds.

Vyre kills Teft and tries to get Lirin killed, forcing Kal past his breaking point entirely and forcing Dalinar to intervene to save his life, which also gives Kal the realization he needs to swear the fourth ideal.

About the only things that he didn't have any role in the lead up to were Szeth's past and Taravangian's ascension freeing up Wind to choose Kaladin as her champion.

Storming incredible work there, Voideyes. You were willing to kill a friend to get your revenge, then tried to get him to kill himself to prove that you were right to take the path you did, and the whole thing ended with him becoming immortal. Don't think I could've done a worse job if I tried.

[rhythm-of-lesbianism]

one of the things Stormlight does really well is the complexities of the parent/child relationship and I'm just thinking a lot about that. Like the obvious example is Dalinar and Evi and Adolin and Renarin. First time I've ever read a book where a father killed his wife and the resulting fallout felt... real? Emotionally? Adolin and Renarin both cope with that information in very different ways (anger vs. denial). Even before that reveal, we still see Adolin's complicated feelings towards his father, idolizing him but wondering if he's going crazy.

Kaladin and Lirin is another one that is so, so good, because of how realistic it is. I've seen a lot of joke comments about their relationship saying that Lirin is like everyone's asian parent who wants them to become a doctor and is disappointed no matter what they do and that's like a funny joke but also kinda nails it where other interpretations of their relationship don't. How do you deal with a parent who just does not understand your life choices? How do you keep loving someone through disagreement? Their relationship felt so real and relatable to me.

Another one I wanted to touch on, a less prominent one in fan spaces, is Venli and Jaxlim. Watching a parent or relative deteriorate is heartbreaking. Venli's feelings in that situation felt so realistic to me. She wanted to do anything to heal her mother. She was resentful towards Eshonai for leaving her to care for their mother much of the time.

Even Shallan's parents, who fall more into the 'very bad inexcusable parenting' camp, have a lot of complexity. I'm still rereading Wind and Truth, but I think her relationship with her mother is so interesting and juicy and real despite her mother being a Herald. Even when a parent does something despicable it's a lot more realistic for their child to mourn and become broken by killing them rather than like. walking away from the encounter intact.

I don't know what my point is just that i think this is a really good element of the Stormlight Archives that I appreciate a lot. Parentage, as in the identity of one's parents, is often important in fantasy, but the complexities of familial relationships are not as common of a theme. Stormlight doesn't really have any Mysterious Orphans or Bastard Sons of the King. That makes the characters feel more real

[stormlight-archive]

Hi it’s me from earlier! As I type this out I realize I’m just adding criticism rather than asking a question but…I’ve seen so many good points made about the way the darkeyes’ oppression was neglected in Kaladin’s later arc, and to extend on that, I feel it was discarded in Moash’s as well. After Elhokar, nearly all the people he kills/tries to kill are darkeyed and were victimized similar to him (Kal, Teft, Sig, Lirin, Leyten, the prisoners), the exceptions being Roshone & Navani. Which could be such an interesting angle to his character if intentional, but as far as I can tell it doesn’t seem like an intentional critique by BS. Which sucks because he’s a great character!

His actions make ok sense when he’s Vyre, but after getting emotions back, it seems ooc for him to be reminded of his vision of equality and decide the way to achieve it is…killing exclusively the group of freed Bridgemen? Not attempting to sway them, just butchering, as opposed to, idk, trying to go after actual, continuing perpetuators of the systems. And they don’t seem to be using him as a regular soldier even, just a Bridge 4 assassin

It feels like such waste of opportunity for others to either call out this irony, or for the books to use it to differentiate btwn Moash and Vyre & it felt anticlimactic that, getting emotions back, he just kept doing the same thing. I want to hope that this just setting up for a comeback later, but it irks me. And the criticism I see of him is always betraying his friends, but not betraying the values he was willing to die for, which is just as tragic/interesting.

Sorry this is SOOO long, and maybe my read is incomplete (it has been a while since I reread) but I really like your dissections of the series and am curious if you had thoughts on this as well. I think current villain Moash who had his original dreams from the first two books & was grappling with what he was willing to give up to achieve them would be infinitely more interesting than whatever is going on now :/ or at least, I would have loved to see others call out how he’s lost sight of his goals/is working furthering the goals of another tyrannical noble/is hurting almost exclusively his own community. The vision Todium gave him of an equal future in WaT felt, to me, like a cheap reminder to the audience of Moash’s og arc rather than a continuation/reminder that the systemic problems he fought continue to exist, kind of to the point you both made earlier

God I've written out paragraphs in response to this message but I feel like I sound insane. So I'll scrap it for now.

I'll just say that yes you are so right and it makes me so mad. Ive never been more disappointed with how moash has been written than i am with book 5, which says a fucking lot.

Such a nothing character. What the fuck happened to him

[tousleheadedpoet]

ok so obviously there are 4 opinions you can have about Moash and Lirin.

Like or at least appreciate both of them and the nuances of their narratives (smart, sexy)

Hate them both (protagonist centered morality. fine tbh but not as interesting)

Like Moash and dislike Lirin

Like Lirin and dislike Moash

and I feel like 3 and 4 aren't as common but they almost always indicate the opinion-haver's philosophy.

Lirin and Moash are interesting opposites bc they stand on either side of Kaladin, (important loved ones who failed or betrayed him in some way) trying to convince him that their way is the right way to face injustice. Lirin with pacifism, Moash with violence. And I'm willing to bet that if you have a strong preference, it's for the character that agrees with your philosophy.

[swagspren]

This is not gonna be eloquent, but do you guys ever think about how much Lirin simply existing in the narrative changes the whole perspective of the story?? Like we can assume that there are people Roshar who hold the same beliefs as Lirin (closest main character I can think of is maybe Rlain??? And Hesina obv), but he’s not just some guy in the world; he is one of our main protagonist’s father!!! And- when he is not around- the main characters (though certainly not the narrative itself) have pretty much all normalized the war and their culture of violence. It especially hits for me bc Kaladin is so entrenched in it when we meet him and then we meet Lirin LATER and it changes everything!!! It changes your expectations for both Kaladin and characters in the world (specifically alethkar, but also much of the world we are primarily introduced to) in general.

Like the whole story repeatedly lands at the conclusion of ‘this culture is destroying the individual and it is destroying everything around it’ and yet every (human) in the story you are rooting for is fighting to uphold it (no time for more nuance on this sorry) except for this one guy who is adamantly not. I’m not saying he is correct, but ​I am thinking about how as a reader you adjust your expectations of character’s morals and ideas based on the context you are given and he changes the context!!!! And he’s Kaladins Dad!!! Idk idk I wish I was articulate

[adolins-heart]

I find it baffling that people are still upset at Lirin after Rhythm of War.

"I'm sorry, Father," Kaladin said.

"sorry? For... For what?"

"I thought your way might be correct," Kaladin said. "And that I'd been wrong. But I don't think it's that simple. I think we're both correct. For us."

"I think perhaps I can accept that." Lirin said.

-

A painted shash glyph on Lirin's forehead.

"I figured," Lirin said, "That if an entire tower was going to show faith in my son, I could maybe try to do the same. I'm sorry, son. For my part "

-

"Come on. We need to protect the people in that tower. You in your way. Me in mine."

Like. They're family! They just want the other to understand and love them. And it takes time and learning and being open to the other to find that connection but they do!!