#Vatican Council II

[robertbrancatelli]

The Latin Mass Kicker

Super Bowl LVII will be played today in Glendale, Arizona between the Kansas City Chiefs and the Philadelphia Eagles. I should be rooting for the Eagles, since I went to college in the suburbs of Philly and lived and worked there for a year after graduation. I still remember a few things from that time: the Mummers, which is a cross between Mardi Gras and a drag show; Frank Rizzo; Valley Forge;…

[apenitentialprayer]

Pope Urban II preaching at the Council of Clermont, in a 1474 manuscript of the Passages d'outremer. (x)

[A]fter each council, a kind of integralism can be seen developing in one part of the body of the Church, pushing one particular point of doctrine to an extreme and in a unilateral way, falsifying it by this very process, tearing away from it the vital significance it had within the synthesis. After Trent, for example, there is the famous theory of the "two sources" (much less universal than is often reported), disassociating Scripture and tradition; after Vatican I there are the excesses of a curialist "papalism"; after Vatican II, there is now (among other deformations) an integralism of (false) collegiality, pushed in the direction of a democratic collectivism. Each time, the council is betrayed by those who claim to be its only true interpreters and who call themselves the vanguard of the Church.

Henri de Lubac (The Motherhood of the Church, page 165, n. 19), trans. Sr. Sergia Englund, O.C.D.)

[stjohncapistrano67]

A photograph of a pre Vatican II council Catholic nun.

[moosefeels]

anyway zero irony i think the pope should go full scorched earth schism two and excommunicate weirdos who do latin rite

[intrinsicallydisordered]

Wtf is with this “spirit of Vatican 2” bs?! The council literally decreed, in a dogmatic constitution, to get rid of the Latin Mass.

You are not bashing the “spirit of Vatican 2” straw parishioners. You are shitting on the current dogmatic law of the highest order of the Roman Catholic Church.

[pinkiepiebones]

FWIW if anyone wants to know the terminology for Cardi's various vestment layers- a labeled picture with lots of words, my additions in purple

I made this in 2021, and as far as I know the terminology is accurate. Or if it's not, no one's ever told me 😅 I was going to reblog my original post but just reposting mg own work takes less time

So, starting from the top:

-Copia's mitre (pope hat) is covered in jewels, which led me to believe it is a specific type of mitre- the pretiosa mitre. According to Wikipedia "The pretiosa ('precious') is decorated with precious stones and gold and worn on the principal Mass on the most solemn Sundays (except in Lent) and feast days." You can see how big the jewels are in RITE HERE RITE NOW during "Call Me Little Sunshine."

-The black thing I see a lot of you calling a cloak is technically a mantum. Again, from Wikipedia: "The mantum is longer than a cope [the cope or "rain coat" is a shorter garment with a less elaborate clasp], and is fastened in the front by an elaborate morse. In earlier centuries it was red, at the time the papal colour. In the 11th and 12th centuries the immantatio, or bestowal of the mantum on the newly-elected pope, was regarded as specially symbolical of investiture with papal authority. After the Second Vatican Council and the pontificate of Pope Paul VI, the mantum fell out of use."

-The elaborate clasp that holds the mantum on is called, among other things, a morse. According to some Catholic encyclopedia I found, "The brooch or clasp, meant to fasten the cope [or mantum] in front, and variously called morse, pectoral, bottone, etc., was an object often in the highest degree precious and costly. The work which was the foundation of all the fortunes of Benvenuto Cellini was the magnificent morse which he made for Pope Clement VII."

-The blue garment is the chasuble. Every Papa wore a chasuble- except Papa Nihil, oddly. I need to analyse Papa Nihil's fit some day... Anyway, not much to say about Copia's chasuble except, from my reading, blue is typically NOT used for chasubles. Blue is a colour reserved for depictions of the Virgin Mary, traditionally, iirc. Copia's colour is also on the outside of his chasuble, which is opposite of how Papa II and III's chasubles were- Papa II's had a black outside and green lining, Papa III's had a black outside and purple lining. Copia's colour being on the outside had me thinking it was a visual signifier that he was not "of the bloodline." I was wrong obvs. Still an interesting choice!

-The scarf thing is a stole. Not much to say about it. From the Catholic encyclopedia: "A liturgical vestment composed of a strip of material from two to four inches wide and about eighty inches long. It has either a uniform width throughout, or is somewhat narrower towards the middle, widening at the ends in the shape of a trapezium or spade." Early concept art from one of the designers showed the stole read (something) DIVINI DRACONE or something to that effect, translating to THE DIVINE DRAGON. Maybe Papa V will use that...

I have forgotten who did this art and I hope it's not considered in bad taste to post it. You can see the idea of the mantum here, too. In RITE HERE RITE NOW you can see the jewels that run down the back.

[eternal-echoes]

In the coming weeks there will be quotes from the Vatican II document Gaudium et Spes being posted in this blog. It may or may not be a good idea because I'm worried that the quotes will be taken in isolation (which have been the reason why people think it contradicts past teachings of the Church) rather than encourage people to read the whole document. I'm hoping it's the latter because it has a lot of interesting commentary on the secular world and politics.

And because I'm just a layperson with a philosophy degree, not theology degree, I'm also worried that I didn't provide enough context in the section of passages I decided to enclose in quotations. Whenever you see something that seems to be in contradiction to what you have been accustomed to understand as authentic Catholicism, please remember this passage from Pope Benedict XVI's letter to the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre:

"The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 – this must be quite clear to the Society. But some of those who put themselves forward as great defenders of the Council also need to be reminded that Vatican II embraces the entire doctrinal history of the Church. Anyone who wishes to be obedient to the Council has to accept the faith professed over the centuries, and cannot sever the roots from which the tree draws its life."

We must avoid both traditionally heretical and liberally heretical interpretation and application of Vatican II.

Because as Aristotle says, "every virtue is a state that lies between two vices"

[portraitsofsaints]

Pope St. John XXIII

1881-1963

Feast Day: October 11

Patronage: Papal Delegates, Patriachary of Venice, Second Vatican CouncilCanonized 2014

Pope John XXIII, affectionally called “The Good Pope”, was born to a large poor sharecropping family. He graduated from college with a doctorate in theology and was ordained a priest in 1904. In 1914 he was drafted into the Italian army and served as a chaplain and stretcher-bearer. Throughout his career, he worked in many church programs including the Society for the Propagation of the Faith, saved thousands of Jews during WWII, was named “Righteous Gentile”, nuncio in France, and Apostolic delegate to Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey. In 1958 he was unexpectedly elected Pope and in 1962, he called an ecumenical council (Vatican II). He died of stomach cancer in 1963.

Prints, plaques & holy cards available for purchase here: (website)

[dandelion-de-deus]

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists, it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence.

- Vatican Council II, GS 19 § 1

[azspot]

But then their momentum seemed to falter. In mid-2021, when conservative members of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) tried to pass a measure denying communion to pro-choice Catholic politicians—effectively excommunicating Biden—the Vatican blocked their plans. Pope Francis began speaking more openly, and derisively, about his American critics, calling them rigid, reactionary, backward, suicidal. He issued new restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass, the dominant form of liturgy before the mid-1960s Second Vatican Council (Vatican II) introduced various modernizing reforms. And the Church hierarchy neutralized some of the loudest voices of clerical dissent. The Wisconsin priest behind a viral video claiming Catholic Democrats would go to hell was removed from his church. Another priest, who’d once delivered a pro-Trump speech with an aborted fetus on his altar, was defrocked. Leading Pope Francis opponent Cardinal Raymond Burke was stripped of his monthly stipend and lavish Vatican City apartment. Strickland, who’d begun claiming that the pope supported an “attack on the sacred,” lost his diocese. In July, the Vatican excommunicated Viganò for fomenting schism by refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and Vatican II.

Behind the Catholic Right’s Celebrity-Conversion Industrial Complex

[paula-of-christ]

Hottake for my Catholic circle: I don't think everything wrong in the world is because of the Novus Ordo. Sure, certain things in the Mass are a problem because of it, but I remember someone saying on here one time that if the Church (body of christ) was so "traditional" before Vatican II council, why were they leaving the Church and those who remained trying to change it? Obviously not everyone did try changing it, but clearly the people who weren't were in the minority.

Like, c'mon guys, scripture tells us over and over again it's going to get worse. Schism with orthodoxy, schism into protestantism, schism with traditionalists. This is the same old song and dance over and over and over. It isn't the doing of any one human person. It's just the devil trying to divide God's Holy One's.

It is both more and less deep than everyone tries to say it is. Because this isn't natural, this is genuine supernatural disturbances. And that's why we ought to pray, that Satan be bound to the foot of the Cross. That all the evil spirits be cast back to hell. Invoke the names of the Holy Men and Women that we might win the race ourselves.

[stjohncapistrano67]

A post renaissance Catholic religious painting of first communicants. Artist unknown.

[punisheddonjuan]

Hmmm this is further confirmation of the theory I have that American conservative Catholics aren't really Catholics so much as they are evangelicals with embroidered robes and incense. Sorry dudes, Vatican II happened, it was a legitimate ecumenical council, and frankly it didn't go far enough; it should have repudiated the Humani Generis encyclical and fully embraced the more radical possibilities of nouvelle théologie.

Fuck the church though.

[rlyehtaxidermist]

making a new heresy called reverse sedevacantism claiming there was no legitimate pope from the council of trent until vatican ii

[thepastisalreadywritten]

The title “Mother of God” goes back to the third or fourth century, but the Greek term Theotokos (“The God-bearer”) was officially consecrated as Catholic doctrine at the Council of Ephesus in 431, thus becoming the first Marian dogma.

At the end of the Council of Ephesus, crowds of people marched through the streets shouting:

“Praised be the Theotokos!”

This Catholic doctrine is based on the doctrine of Incarnation, as expressed by St. Paul:

“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Galatians 4:4).

In its chapter on Mary’s role in the Church, Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution “Lumen Gentium” (“Light of the People”) calls Mary “Mother of God” 12 times.

On this day, the Catholic Church also celebrates World Day of Peace, a tradition established by Pope Paul VI and confirmed by Pope John Paul II.

[spiritualdirections]

No, in confession you aren't talking directly to Jesus, nor is He to you

A friend asked me to comment on the following sentence that she had come across:

"When the priest declares our sins are forgiven, it is Jesus speaking his words of love through the priest."

I fgured I would share my response:

"St. Thomas Aquinas is the source of the distinction that in confession and other sacraments, the words said by the priest are the priest's, but in the mass at the consecration the words of the priest are Jesus'.  

"Aquinas' distinction is: At the consecration, the priest acts in persona Christi. In all other sacraments, the priest acts ex persona ministri (see Summa Theologia III.78.1). Vatican II introduced the phrase "in persona Christi capitis" to refer to the priest or bishop insofar as he is exercising his Holy Orders (see Presbyterorum Ordinis 2).

"St. Thomas never expected that his choice of terms would later become canonical, and used by people who otherwise would not read the Summa Theologiae. But since they did, and because the two expressions are so similar, people are sometimes confused about the teaching regarding the other sacraments, particularly confession.

"You can tell that the words in confession come from the priest, since in the formula of absolution, the priest says, "I absolve you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." If the words came from Jesus, he wouldn't be acting "in the name of" anybody else. 

"So the text above is incorrect. The priest is not possessed by Jesus when he talks to the penitent, nor is the priest prophesying, nor must he use Jesus' words in Scripture. Those are pretty much the ways for Jesus to put his words in the priest's mouth as the text suggests, and none of them happen regularly. What happens is that the priest uses his intellect and judgment. Hopefully, he's open to any promptings from the Holy Spirit, but the action is fully his. Some Protestants tried to deny this before the Council of Trent, but Trent condemned anyone who thought the priest was not acting as a judge using his own prudence."