#also finding out she was bullied for her looks growing up...even that fits with Arya 😭

[fromtheseventhhell]

She is so older Arya-coded

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

the whole “sansa is the most relatable woman” thing is so triggering for me because as an afab person with late diagnosed autism sansa reminds me so much of the girls who used to bully me. i relate so strongly with arya because we both struggle with having conservative femininity imposed on us by society and are demonized for not adhering to “traditional” femininity

Hello @daenerysthevampireslayerr !

Yes, I find Sansa to be an alienating character for me as well, and I know a lot of people who feel this way. Sansa is a rich hetero white girl who abides by the status quo and perfectly fits into the highborn feminine box in her world. She is extremely classist and misogynistic, as well as closed-minded, selfish and vain and disloyal to a family that has done nothing to earn that disloyalty from her. As a mixed race bisexual woman who was born illegitimate and raised by a single mother, we weren't exactly rich either. We lived paycheck to paycheck. I also wasn't conventional looking so I myself grew up being bullied.

And while I was a little girl who loved "feminine"-coded things (playing with dolls and barbies, wearing dresses and make-up and jewelry) and romances and dreaming about happily ever after, I still can't relate to her. And that's because I was raised by a gender non-conforming mother who despised "feminine"-coded things and made me feel lesser for liking those things and for being a creative. I literally was the outcast when it came to me, my older sister, and my mother. I also wasn't blind to the world at large and I relate to Arya's anger at society and the injustices of the world, and how trauma can up that anger and make you lash out. I was also open-minded like her.

I just can't relate to Sansa, and people in this fandom proclaiming that Sansa is "the most relatable" has a very narrow view of what's relatable and what isn't, but from what I can tell, a lot of toxic Stansa's seem to be more conservative and has more of a tradfem/tradwife/tradcath or puritanical mentality. So they think every woman should be able to relate to Sansa, and every man in the audience should be in love with her, or some such nonsense. Of course, this is extremely exclusionary, because of how misogynistic and transphobic these people tend to be. Suffice it to say, I will never relate to Sansa, and if other people don't relate to her that should be accepted as okay. We all have preferences and we didn't all grow up in the same way. Why should I like a character who treated her little sister like crap on her shoe, didn't care she was almost killed by her betrothed, continues to think lowly of her even when she thinks Arya is dead, is disloyal to a family that didn't treat her badly at all and loved and constantly praised her, and is completely unrepentant for any of her bad behavior. She never reflects on any of her past behavior because she never thinks anything she does is wrong. She refuses to acknowledge, feel shame/guilt, take responsibility, and try to be better. If she did this in her arc, I would probably feel different about her as a character (Even though I still wouldn't relate to her), but she's forever the most frustrating POV to read for me where her character and it's development is concerned.

A lot of people in fandom cry about how people can dislike/hate Sansa, but go on to love Jaime, and I'm going to reveal why Jaime is one of my favorite characters. It's because even though he's done horrible shit, he acknowledges it, takes responsibility for it, and wants to do better. Does he do better? I think he does, it's not a lot better, but he's making progress, and he'll make better progress when he stops trying to act like Tywin. But it's the fact that he acknowledges all this and wants to be better (whether he achieves it or not) that makes him more likeable to me than Sansa, who has never taken responsibility for anything in her life and who doesn't want to do better. Yes, Sansa hasn't done as much bad as Jaime, but I really don't care. :P

But also, I think character relatability is overblown. Some of my favorite characters aren't relatable to me, or I only share one or two qualities with. I don't need my favorite character to be my copy. I do tend to relate more with Arya than my average favorite characters, but there is still several things about Arya that isn't relatable for me personally, but that doesn't make me love her less. And Sansa doesn't need to be relatable to be liked or loved by fans. It all has to do with preference. But suffice it to say, if it weren't for the toxic Stansa's I would have been neutral about Sansa in the books post AGOT. However, their toxicity makes it impossible. :/

[jackoshadows]

Sometimes I think ASoIaF/GoT fandom is too hard on J*nsa shippers, like let them ship their ship if it makes them happy, but then I read shit about how Jon/Arya is "bad" incest because they look alike but Jon/Sansa is "good" incest since they look like Ned/Cat, and then I'm like "nah, they deserve to be the laughingstock of the fandom."

IMO, the fandom only has an issue with the 'Jonsa is canon' shippers who spend their time mutating Jon, Dany, Arya and others into unrecognizable side characters in a story called a Song of Sansa and Sansa.

Why do I dislike Jonsa? Because of the shippers.

The way Jonsa is shipped makes it at it’s core an inherently misogynistic and classist ship that undermines Jon Snow as a character and his canon relationships in the books and the TV show IMO. Dany and Arya get a lot of sexist hate because of this ship. Especially Dany. Jonsa stans turned against the character specifically after Jonerys happened on the show.

The ‘Jonsa is canon’ folks posit that:

Jon’s disdain for girls like Sansa is actually about Jon feeling that he is not worthy of beautiful, perfect Sansa because of his bastardy. He therefore settles for girls similar to Arya, who are more to his level - classism and sexism in one concise package! Jon’s issues concerning his bastardy will be resolved once trueborn, beautiful Sansa deigns to love him.

Jon is wrong to like girls like Arya and does not know his own mind. He will therefore grow as a character and acknowledge that his type has always been Sansa.

Jon has actually referred to Arya as being horse-faced and ugly and told Arya that it is right and correct to live within patriarchal rules!

Jon is also very shallow - he develops a romantic crush on his 11 year old sibling who mocked and bullied Arya for being ugly. Who cares if Arya went crying to him afraid that she too was a bastard because of her looks, 11 year old Sansa’s beauty is too hard to resist!

Arya cannot have a romance arc, is not pretty, will not marry or have children. Jon will be repulsed by her when they meet again. Jon will grow to dislike Arya, Val, Dany etc. for their masculine characteristics and for killing people. Instead he will find Sansa’s feminine courage more appealing and fall in love with her beauty, purity, innocence, singing, dancing, lady like ways.

Slut-shaming. Dany has many partners unlike pure, innocent Sansa. (They have rather puritanical opinions on sex and morality and project these notions onto Sansa. I don't know if it's because of their obsession with fairy tales and disney princesses)

Jon will turn into a Littlefinger like character who sexually manipulates Daenerys - a rape victim - in order to help his true love Sansa get the North. This is okay because Dany deserves it and it’s about helping Sansa.

Dany and Jon's child will be born deformed, monstrous. Dany will turn mad because of genes. Jon will reject her because she’s barren. The Starks are superior to everyone.

Actual defense of slavery and classism. Dany is wrong to free the slaves in Meereen, Arya is wrong to step in to help Mycah, the classism and feudal structures in Westeros is fine as long as the Starks/Sansa are the ones perpetuating it.

Jon is oversensitive and whiny about Catelyn Stark and she was right to abuse him because bastards are a threat to her children.

Jaime Lannister will become Hand of the King, for Queen Sansa and King Jon, while evil Tyrion will die.

The hard power of characters like Daenerys and the violence of characters like Arya is evil and wrong while the violence of male characters is righteous and justified. Jon, who regularly kills people, will be put off by Arya and Dany killing people.

Daenerys and Arya should be repudiated because they have masculine characteristics, masculine courage, a masculine narrative arc and people only enjoy their story because they stand in for male characters.

‘People like Dany more than Sansa because Emilia Clarke showed her tits’ - actual words written by a popular Jonsa shipper.

The scorned women trope. This is a core premise of many of their theories like political Jon and fAegon being real. Dany will be rejected by men, go mad and burn down KL.

There is only one real female character in the story - that’s Sansa. And the only reason - the ONLY REASON, people criticize or dislike the character is because of their internalized misogyny against the only real female character in the books. Only Sansa gets the fairy tale romance because she’s a real woman.

Being written as a divisive, xenophobic, isolationist, backstabbing traitor on the show is good writing that portrays Sansa as a good leader.

And so on and so forth. I am pretty sure I have only covered like half of their nonsense.

Ultimately the problem for Jonsa is that it's nonexistent in the books and both characters had an antagonistic relationship on the show. There's nothing there. So the 'Jonsa is canon' folks take away from Arya, the Jon-Arya relationship, erase Arya from her story and relationships and demonize Dany to make Jonsa happen.

Jonerys and Jonrya shippers don't have that problem. Both ships have material from the books and show and even extras like GRRM's leaked original outline to make the case for these ships. Jon, Dany and Arya are central characters in the series.

Jonerys and Jonrya shippers are not writing essays taking away from Jon and Sansa's relationship - because that relationship is nonexistent. There's nothing to take away from! Other shippers don't have to make up things out of thin air or hate on Sansa for having a relationship with Jon. She doesn’t have one!

There's actual little clues in the books that could point to either Jonerys and Jonarya instead of shippers being excited that Jon's book chapter followed Sansa’s or snow fell on her face lol.

Jonsas literally erase Arya from her story in the books and her relationship with Jon to insert Sansa in there. Jonrya shippers don’t need to do that - Arya has a central story in the North and Jon Snow literally died for her in the last book!

And that's why all these anti posts from people like Daensa shippers grouping Jonerys/Jonrya together with a crackship like Jonsa makes no sense. If anything, considering how these shippers have now started becoming obnoxious as well with their 'Oh look at us, we are so edgy and superior!' shit, Jonsa will fit right in with them.

[chispas-and-broken-bindings]

When I was new to fandom I was bored by Dany and Jon story. Dany for me was typical fantasy heroine who was winning and getting everything and Jon has basically underdog story which wasn't that new. When I saw the so hyped boatsex I was like eh? I found Arya more interesting and Sansa started to grow on me. It's through jonsa I started admiring Jon and loving Sansa. Also through Sansa and jonsa fandom I realised Dany is a villain which is better than savior of world.

Hi nonny, well you were not alone in seeing Dany as a fantasy heroine (lots and lots and lots of people saw her this way). I suppose I’d disagree with the idea that she is typical...mainly because she isn’t the heroine, and her story is one fantastic inversion of the hero’s journey. I love Dany’s storyline for what it’s doing. Unfortunately, many people don’t see it. I also love Jon’s story, especially as this wonderful parallel to Dany’s, except where Dany’s experiences only heighten her sense of “specialness”, Jon’s experiences are constantly forcing him to see and even “live in” other people’s perspectives. Dany’s arc is about hubris and upholding this idea that she alone deserves unbridled power, while Jon’s is about humility and seeing the inherent value in other people’s lives. He pays dearly for his mistakes, especially when he tries to push his friends away and take on the burden of leadership alone (but that’s getting way ahead of what I want to talk about today). 

Almost immediately, Dany’s chapters are infused with the language of “specialness”. She is the “blood of the dragon”, she is the khaleesi, a princess, a queen...and almost immediately, Jon Snow is disabused about any such notions he may have had, even as a bastard. 

Jon stared sullenly at the smoke rising from the brazier, until Noye took him under the chin, thick fingers twisting his head around. "Look at me when I'm talking to you, boy."

Jon looked. The armorer had a chest like a keg of ale and a gut to match. His nose was flat and broad, and he always seemed in need of a shave. The left sleeve of his black wool tunic was fastened at the shoulder with a silver pin in the shape of a longsword. "Words won't make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores."

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

"You think you had it hard, being a high lord's bastard?" the armorer went on. "That boy Jeren is a septon's get, and Cotter Pyke is the baseborn son of a tavern wench. Now he commands Eastwatch by the Sea."

"I don't care," Jon said. "I don't care about them and I don't care about you or Thorne or Benjen Stark or any of it. I hate it here. It's too … it's cold."

"Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it. Not like the stories your wet nurse told you. Well, piss on the stories and piss on your wet nurse. This is the way it is, and you're here for life, same as the rest of us." 

A Game of Thrones - Jon III

As soon as Jon arrives at the Wall, his uncle gives him the cold shoulder and goes so far as to verbally reprimand Jon for believing he’d get special favor for being Ned Stark’s son, and then Donal Noye also knocks him down a few more pegs, calling him boy and reminding him that he is no better than anyone else at the Wall. 

"Yes, life," Noye said. "A long life or a short one, it's up to you, Snow. The road you're walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night."

"They're not my brothers," Jon snapped. "They hate me because I'm better than they are."

"No. They hate you because you act like you're better than they are. They look at you and see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he's a lordling." The armorer leaned close. “You're no lordling. Remember that. You're a Snow, not a Stark. You're a bastard and a bully."

A Game of Thrones - Jon III

Two chapters later, Dany is a married woman and riding in Khal Drogo’s khalasar. While she is miserable at the start (and rightly so. She is sold and raped. I’m in no way pretending that Dany’s life doesn’t start out horrible. It’s far more horrible than Jon’s start to life), she is in a position of power for the first time ever, and lets just say she takes to it just fine. 

Jorah tells her about ghost grass (that passage deserves its own meta - the writing was on the wall from book one, people), and Dany doesn’t want to hear it: 

"I don't want to talk about that now," she said. "It's so beautiful here, I don't want to think about everything dying."

"As you will, Khaleesi," Ser Jorah said respectfully.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Jon doesn’t want to hear people calling his mother a whore = Tough luck kid, your mother was who she was. Face reality. 

Dany doesn’t want to hear about ghost grass murdering all life = conversation ends and Dany gets to enjoy the beautiful day without others spoiling it. 

"Wait here," Dany told Ser Jorah. "Tell them all to stay. Tell them I command it."

The knight smiled. Ser Jorah was not a handsome man. He had a neck and shoulders like a bull, and coarse black hair covered his arms and chest so thickly that there was none left for his head. Yet his smiles gave Dany comfort. "You are learning to talk like a queen, Daenerys."

"Not a queen," said Dany. "A khaleesi." She wheeled her horse about and galloped down the ridge alone.

The descent was steep and rocky, but Dany rode fearlessly, and the joy and the danger of it were a song in her heart. All her life Viserys had told her she was a princess, but not until she rode her silver had Daenerys Targaryen ever felt like one.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Their stories are inversions of each other from their very first pages in AGOT and it culminates in ADWD which is this wonderful deep dive into how these divergent viewpoints color their leadership styles. 

I don’t have time to go on and on about this, but I find Dany and Jon’s stories fascinating and I love them as foils. They just don’t make any sense from a shipping perspective. 

That being said, for the show, I totally bought into the pol!jon theory. That was the only thing that made season 7 fit any kind of narrative sense, and with that lens I didn’t mind the season or the boat sex scene, because I thought the lack of chemistry was the point. LOL. I’m a clown. 

However you came to Jonsa, I’m glad you did! I agree. Dany makes a much more interesting villain than she does a heroine. We don’t need any more white savior stories. Blech. 

[dwellordream]

Maybe this is too much of a risky question, so feel free to not answer if you don’t want to, but how do you think Sansa actually viewed or felt about Arya, and how do you think she will react when they meet again?

Well, our introduction to how Sansa views Arya is through her very first POV chapter: Sansa comes down for breakfast at the inn, Septa Mordane asks where Arya is, Sansa knows Arya has snuck off somewhere but claims Arya wasn’t hungry. At this point I would not say Sansa is covering for Arya out of the kindness of her heart, I would say that, in typical sibling fashion, she really just does not want to be in the middle of a Mordane versus Arya conflict. She is not so hostile towards Arya that she is willing to throw Arya under the bus at a moment’s notice, but she isn’t going to concern herself much with what Arya is off doing. This, of course, is immediately foiled with Mordane tells Sansa that Cersei has invited her and Arya into the wheelhouse for the day, and that Sansa needs to go find Arya and tell her to make sure she looks presentable for their time with the queen. From the way Mordane says, “Do remind her to dress nicely today. The grey velvet, perhaps.” I get the impression that Mordane giving instructions or warnings to Arya via Sansa is not at all uncommon, and that this probably does not at all help the relationship between sisters, if Sansa is often being asked to act as Mordane’s mouthpiece when she’s fed up and doesn’t want to deal with Arya. We then get this: The only thing that scared her about today was Arya. Arya had a way of ruining everything. You never knew what she would do. "I'll tell her," Sansa said uncertainly, "but she'll dress the way she always does." She hoped it wouldn't be too embarrassing. "May I be excused?" Sansa views Arya as unpredictable, her first POV suggests. She’s never sure what Arya is going to do, but she knows it’s probably not going to be met with approval from the people around them. “Arya had a way of ruining everything.” is point blank not a nice thing to think about your sister, obviously. Why does Sansa feel Arya ruins everything, that Arya is embarrassing to her? Well, we’re about to find out: "You better put on something pretty," Sansa told her. "Septa Mordane said so. We're traveling in the queen's wheelhouse with Princess Myrcella today." "I'm not," Arya said, trying to brush a tangle out of Nymeria's matted grey fur. "Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford." "Rubies," Sansa said, lost. "What rubies?" Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. "Rhaegar's rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown." Sansa regarded her scrawny little sister in disbelief. "You can't look for rubies, the princess is expecting us. The queen invited us both." "I don't care," Arya said. "The wheelhouse doesn't even have windows, you can't see a thing." "What could you want to see?" Sansa said, annoyed. She had been thrilled by the invitation, and her stupid sister was going to ruin everything, just as she'd feared. "It's all just fields and farms and holdfasts." "It is not," Arya said stubbornly. "If you came with us sometimes, you'd see." The scene is both fairly comedic, in that they are such different pages they might as not even be in the same book, and pretty much sets up what we know to expect from their dynamic. Sansa doesn’t hate Arya, but she feels that if there is one thing in her personal life (as narrow a personal life as any 11 year old has) that does not fit, that does not work the way it should, it is Arya. Arya doesn’t think like Sansa. Arya doesn’t share the same interests as Sansa. Arya doesn’t seem to care (in Sansa’s perspective) what Sansa thinks or what anyone thinks. We know Arya, does, in fact, care quite a lot about what Sansa and other people think of her, but this is not apparent to Sansa.  Sansa is thrilled at the thought of spending the day with Cersei and Myrcella, viewing this invitation as the very tip of the iceberg- she’s been betrothed to the crown prince, this is going to be her life now, idyllic rides through the countryside, court gossip, spending time in the presence of the queen herself, renowned for her beauty. Traveling in a wheelhouse is a big deal for someone raised at the isolated Winterfell. Sansa doesn’t care about the outside world, she can’t stand the thought of missing out on all the excitement going on inside. In her mind, she is verging on the precipice of grownup life. Grownup ladies sit in the wheelhouse and chat and do needlework and read to one another. They do not go tearing off into the countryside looking for rubies. But it’s not just that Arya acts ‘childish’ that annoys Sansa. It’s that Arya’s behavior does not fit the standard Sansa has been raised to uphold and to see as right and proper. Arya does not nod and go, “Sure, Sansa, let me put on my grey velvet and I’ll be right there!” Arya argues with her. The big sister! The gall. Arya refuses to put on her nice grey dress. Arya plays with the butcher’s boy, someone Sansa has been taught is not a suitable companion for a highborn girl. Arya wanders off, talking to all sorts of people, regardless of class. Sansa sees herself as well on her way to becoming a woman, but not only, in her view, does her sister act like a child in comparison, it’s that she does not even act ‘like a proper little girl’. Arya disregards the gender norms Sansa has been told must be upheld. Arya is defiant, Arya is stubborn, Arya says what’s on her mind. To Sansa, this means any social situation with Arya is a ticking timebomb. She is constantly annoyed and aggravated, afraid Arya will offend Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, etc. Little does Sansa know, Arya is also often on edge in these situations, feeling like she can’t do anything right, that Sansa doesn’t like her and is ashamed of her.  However, what I do not read into this initial scene, though it ends with both sisters annoyed and frustrated with one another, is genuine hatred. Arya refuses to come along, Sansa pulls the classic older sibling ‘fine, I’ll go by myself, and it’ll be lots of fun!’ hoping to use some reverse psychology, and Arya gets one last jab in as Sansa stalks off. Sansa is tearful, not because she’s going to miss Arya oh so much, but because now she’s going to have to explain where Arya ran off to, and she’s afraid it will make her look bad or that Cersei and company will think less of her for having an ‘unruly sister’. All of this is pretty realistic to the behavior of some bickering 11 and 9 year olds. Both girls are sensitive, but in different ways, which again, makes sense. Even in the midst of their fierce argument, Sansa is still giggling at Arya trying to brush Nymeria’s fur, and Arya still offers to let Sansa come along with her and Mycah. We know from Arya’s POV, moving forward, that she feels genuinely hurt by Sansa’s disapproval, that she feels the absence of a close sisterly bond, that Sansa and Jeyne’s comments of ‘horse face’ whether teasingly meant or deliberately provocative, make her feel insecure and small, unworthy and unwanted. But neither Arya nor Sansa have the skills to communicate their true feelings or exactly why they aggravate one another so much. More so, why Arya aggravates Sansa so much, as Arya is not nearly as upset by Sansa’s more ‘ladylike’ behavior as Sansa is by Arya’s ‘rebellious’ behavior. Again, I think this is fairly reasonable. They’re 11 and 9 and Septa Mordane is not at all one to be promoting conflict resolution. Ned doesn’t spend much time parenting either of them on a day to day basis as they travel south. They’ve been separated from their mother, which is a pretty big deal for two little girls who’ve never traveled before, nevermind traveled without the rest of the family. They don’t have their brothers as buffers; Sansa can’t confide in Robb, Arya can’t confide in Jon. They don’t have a ton of privacy; they’re sharing a tent or an inn bed together at night, they can’t just run off to opposite ends of the keep to get away from each other, because they’re on the road. The mundane stressors are exacerbating an already rocky relationship.  But none of this is all that out of the ordinary or odd. Neither of them has flung any major insults at the other in either’s POV so far, they haven’t had any big conflicts. What really goes on to totally change the dynamic is the Trident incident, and all the emotions tied up in that. That is not a ‘normal’ situation. That is a situation none of the kids present (including Joffrey and Mycah) should ever have been in. That is four kids wandering off into the woods, miles away from any adult supervision, two of them at least tipsy, one of them carrying a weapon. Neither Sansa nor Arya woke up that day expecting things to go that way. It is so beyond the pale that what follows is the equivalent of a nuclear bomb in the relationship dynamic. There is no way either comes out of that with anything close to positive feelings, in the direct aftermath, about the other sister. It is written that way by design. It’s not a nasty spat where some cruel things or said. It’s not a shoving match over who gets to watch TV or shower first. It taints the entire relationship for the rest of the book, and it guarantees that things ‘end’ on a bad note for the sisters, because neither has any forewarning to realize that there will be no chance for a reconciliation a few months down the line. Before that, what we see is, in my current reading, a more or less ‘normal’ sibling relationship. It doesn’t excuse the bullying Arya’s experienced growing up at Winterfell (which Sansa certainly does not recognize as bullying at the time of the first book) but it is not traumatizing and earth-shattering to the level that the Trident incident becomes. This really didn’t answer how I feel Sansa will react when she and Arya meet again, but to cut things short before I go on all night: Sansa currently believes Arya is dead. She’s not thinking of reconciling with Arya or thinking of her last months with Arya because it’s painful and what is the point? Arya is dead and she’s never coming back, in Sansa’s mind. She will never have a sister again. This seems doubly true to her, no doubt, after the Tyrell scheme falls through and she is married to Tyrion.  However, we do see her, as of Winds, befriending Mya Stone and Myranda Royce, neither of whom are people the Sansa we see in AGoT would have ever thought of spending time with. And before that, we see her doing the sort of things with Margaery (such as going hawking and racing horses) that Arya might have, had the opportunity arose, offered to do with Sansa. Sansa thinks of Arya as she’s warning Margaery about Joffrey. Sansa dreams about children with Willas, sometimes a daughter who looks Arya. That does not suggest contempt or disdain or lingering loathing, in my opinion. So I would say that Sansa’s initial reaction to meeting Arya again will be shock and disbelief, then overwhelming joy that not all her family is dead (assuming Arya is the first sibling she reunites with). I do not think it will be a cold stand-off between sisters. Arya has been thinking of Sansa too, frequently in A Storm of Swords, even. I truly hope that past the initial thrill of being reunited and the awkwardness of both of them being a few years older, they are able to speak openly and honestly about their childhood, that Sansa is able to apologize, that Arya is able to express herself, that both are able to agree to move forward together as sisters who love each other and who want to support one another.

[aiyassalt]

Honestly, I greatly dislike Sansa (both her book and show counterparts), but there are times when I read pro-Sansa posts and theories, I feel pity for her.

No, not because I think the show “butchered” her. As mega-ringsandthings-world pointed out, it’s not out of the realm of possibility for Sansa to become what she is in S8. GRRM created her to be the black sheep of the family who clashes and causes trouble for other family members. This is the same girl who snitched on her dad to the woman who ordered her wolf killed so that she can get Joffrey’s dick hand in marriage and become Queen. This is the same girl who dismissed Jory’s death because his replacement is much more handsome. This is the same girl who is currently in on the plan to slowly poison her epileptic and orphaned cousin and covers up the truth about his mother’s death so that she can get the Vale. So, it’s totally possible for Sansa grow from an extremely spoiled, self-centered snobby brat who throws family members and allies under a bus for power and prestige to a manipulative yet gullible, traumatized, bitter, self-centered woman who screws over family members and allies for power.

No, I feel pity for Sansa because, out of her own universe, in fandom, she has few people in her corner. The only people who seem to appreciate her for what she is are only a handful of Sansa stans and Sansa haters/critics like me. Like many fans have brilliantly pointed out, many Sansa stans’ investment in Sansa has less to do with them genuinely finding her character and/or storyline interesting, but more so that she serves as a self-insert and they project traits and storylines they find desirable for her.  For all her fans’ claims of how they love her so much because she’s so feminine, non-magical, and not a physical badass (of course, annoying “subtle” digs at Jon, Arya, and Dany), the posts that incorrectly summarize Sansa’s traits, fanfics that have Sansa wielding a sword, bows and arrows, the posts theorizing that she will receive/warg Nymeria or Dany’s dragons, raise Arya’s or Dany’s kids, become the YMBQ and posts by Sansa stans getting pouty that not everyone think Sansa’s destined to become the next ruler of the North, Queen of the 7K, and/or YMBQ prove opposite. I would dare to say that Sansa stans dislike, nay, hate canon!Sansa and her actual storyline. And quite frankly, I don’t blame them.

Sansa’s not one of the Main Five; she’s just a main character. She’s also supposed to be the female equivalent of the Everyman character who serves as a window for the readers into how the courtly culture of this medieval fantasy-esque setting is rife with corruption and cruelty hiding beneath the thin and glittery veneer of courtly values and luxury. Her arc has nothing to do with rulership and leadership. Her beginning chapters cement her as a thoughtless, self-centered, vain, classist brat with low pockets of empathy for anyone who isn’t attractive and/or highborn and disturbingly parallels with young!Cersei’s beginnings. She isn’t super intelligent, observant, kind, or clever, especially compared to other characters. She’s easily one of the most conformist and classist characters in the series and doesn’t give much thought as to how she will improve her life and the lives of others. She’s incredibly passive and her passiveness becomes more apparent compared to other characters. Her accomplishments are unremarkable and look even more so compared to what other characters (especially to the Main Five) achieve. Romance-wise, her love life looks rather dismal and far from the stuff of wish-fulfillment for many Sansa stans who think like AGOT!Sansa. None of the male characters she interacts with (Joffery, Sandor, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Sweetrobin, Harry, etc) exactly fit the mold of the Prince Charming trope in terms of looks and/or personality meanwhile other female characters seem to get “better pickings” of potential male love interests. Hell, even in the sphere of beauty standards, Sansa’s good looks don’t make her exactly unique. Also, the books clearly and frequently subvert the Beauty Is Never Tarnished trope and have many formerly beautiful women temporarily or permanently lose their looks. So, there might be chance that Sansa might undergo an event that slightly or greatly disfigures her. Finally, regarding acquisition of power, again, what Sansa gets, and how she acquires it will pale in comparison to what other characters. Contrary to the show, Sansa is not going to become Queen of the North. If Sansa does acquire a title, it will most likely be Lady of the Vale and it will be through killing/endangering her epileptic cousin. Jon, Dany and/or Arya, on the other hand, will likely play integral roles in the War for the Dawn, contenders for Kingship/Queenship of the North or the Iron Throne, and will gain their power through charisma, dedication, sheer will and determination, compassion, and hard work.

So yeah, I can see how and why many Sansa stans go out of their way to take anything and everything from other characters to give to their so-called “favorite”. I can see why they insist on pro-Sansa revisionist spins that erase Sansa’s flaws as well as any responsibility, agency, and blame she owns for any wrongs she commits. Sansa is not at all an easy or likable character to root for.

And yet, despite all that I said…it’s completely fine that she is all those things. Yes, I, someone who greatly dislikes Sansa, is saying this. There’s nothing wrong with Sansa starting off as a passive, classist, and snobby bully with little empathy and not much intelligence and she becomes…well, less of a bully at least.  It’s completely fine her arc has nothing to do with ruling or leading and is all about her just learning to be less shallow and appreciate what she initially had. It’s completely fine she doesn’t end up as Queen of the North or the Seven Kingdoms, doesn’t take Cersei down, doesn’t end up with fAegon, etc. There’s nothing wrong (other than the child poisoning deal…) with Sansa acquiring the Vale. It’s a rich region and its culture is more suitable to Sansa’s personality, tastes, and arc.

What I find frustrating and saddening is that Sansa fans have no problem finger-wagging at Dany, Arya, and Jon fans how it’s fine and even “beautiful” if our faves don’t get happy endings or enjoy perks typical of their fairy tale archetypes. Yet these same Sansa fans seem to empathically refuse to apply the same thinking to their own fave and (again, based on their actions) seem to desperately wish Sansa was something more than a snobby and classist rich mean girl with no magical abilities, charisma, or a big heart full of empathy and compassion. This might be just my thinking, but if you truly like and appreciate a character, then you would not feel the need to bash other characters to prop her/him/they up only to turn around blatantly steal other traits and storylines from the characters you bash because truthfully, you find fave’s personality traits and their arc grating and unsatisfactory.

So, that’s what I mean when I say I feel occasional pity for Sansa: because she has very few fans who genuinely like and appreciate her. Hell, I even feel more pity for Sansa when I think about her fans because I suspect a lot of her so-called “fans” will turn on her if none of their theories and headcanons are validated. I can only imagine what will happen if Sansa dies and never takes Cersei and/or Dany down or is never crowned QiTN or simply becomes Lady of the Vale. Or she ends up with the “wrong” guy or ends up single or with a random noble who isn’t as high-ranking and/or handsome as they would like.

[apiratecalledav]

 Reasons to be Hopeful for Gendrya season 8:

“I have a son. You have a daughter. We’ll join our houses.”

They have tried to marry a Stark girl with a Baratheon twice now. Robert and Lyanna. Joffrey and Sansa. Third time’s the charm!

Robert and Lyanna are a lot like Gendry and Arya, both in looks and some of their major personality traits.   And we see they have similar relationships to Ned and Jon respectively. See how much Robert and Ned’s first scene parallels Gendry and Jon’s meeting- these first serious and solemn-looking exchanges end in smiles and good natured ribbing. Jon and Arya are especially close, just like Ned and Lyanna were. Also, Lyanna’s introduction— showing off her horseback riding in front of her brothers— feels similar to Arya shooting an arrow into Bran’s target in the pilot episode.  But Robert and Lyanna didn’t know each other very well, unlike Arya and Gendry who were friends and companions for a long time. Not to mention that Gendry and Arya are much better people than Robert and Lyanna. Gendry is not a drunken philanderer and Arya isn’t as thoughtless (and selfish?) as Lyanna.

Compare Arya’s first meeting with Hot Pie in season 1 to their final goodbye in season 7. In season 1, they met just after Arya lost her family. She was already devastated when Hot Pie insulted her and tried to intimidate her. Arya threatened him and it was one of the first times we see the depths of her fierceness. In season 7, Arya finds Hot Pie just after she avenged her family. She’s already feeling pretty happy(ish) when Hot Pie tells her that Jon has Winterfell, that she’s pretty and calls her his friend. It is the first time in awhile we see her heart and emotions absolutely unguarded.  Hot Pie and Arya’s reunion highlights how he went from her bully to her friend, from kicking her while she was already down to giving her the best news she had heard in years when she was as happy as she ever expected to be again. So Arya and Gendry reuniting ought to show us how much their relationship has changed too; from friends to something more.

So far, very few reunion scenes have featured both characters being taken by surprise. Sansa went looking for Jon. Bran knew when he’d see his siblings. Arya probably hoped to see Hot Pie at that inn. Davos tracked down Gendry. The guards told Arya that Sansa was at Winterfell and they told Sansa that Arya was there. Arya learned from Sansa that Bran was home. Jon knows that Bran and Arya are at Winterfell. Sandor knows that Arya survived. So I think it’s very interesting that at this point, both Arya and Gendry are completely unaware that the other is still alive. I think it’s intentional so that it can be one of the few reunions where it’s a complete surprise to both of them.

Just generally speaking, they were as heavy-handed with shippiness as they could get away with in seasons 1- 3 considering the age difference.They had a hard line to walk between “planting the seeds” of a future relationship and not making Gendry look creepy and I think they handled well:

Their first meeting is a classic “meet cute,” especially among kids and/or in adventure stories, where A defends B from danger or harassment. 

Gendry realized Arya was a girl pretty quickly or maybe even immediately. In the books, it’s only after their little group is on their own for awhile that he notices she goes far away to pee. I know a factor might be simplifying things because of time constraints. But I think it’s worth noting that in these situations, the love interest will often see through the disguise. It also gets bonus points because even with long hair, Arya had been frequently mistaken for a boy.

“As my lady commands” can be seen as having a similar vibe as Robb and Theon laughing hysterically after Arya throws some food at Sansa. But it definitely can be seen a flirting-- if in a “kids in the school yard” kind of way.

She ogles him blatantly while he is shirtless. Growing up with lots of brothers and their friends and swimming with them and stuff.... it’s not like male anatomy is a mystery to her. It’s basically a big flashing sign telling the audience that Arya does not see Gendry as some kind of big brother replacement.

When they leave Harrenhal, it’s clear that Gendry doesn’t think it’s safe to do so. But Arya goes and he follows rather quickly. Either he really trusts her judgement or he’s willing to die with her. 

We often see them exchanging meaningful looks and/or practically reading each other’s minds. When they hear that lady talk about how they’re all slowly being tortured and killed in Harrenhal. When the Mountain picks Gendry to be rat food. How Gendry checks with her before he tells Thoros the blacksmith he used to train with. When they say goodbye to Hot Pie and he gives them that misshapen wolf bread. Or when Arya tries to stab the Hound, Gendry stops her when the rest of the Brotherhood is still dumbstruck. I almost always only see that kind of non-verbal communication in characters that are siblings (twins more specifically) or a couple. 

They get a pretty long one-on-one farewell. This show is not big on goodbye scenes. Most are off screen and if not, tend to be rather brief and the characters have to have a stiff upper lip because there are other people around or because they can’t/won’t open up. But the scene where Gendry tells Arya that he wants to stay with the Brotherhood is very emotional and both of them get a bit teary-eyed. It’s not their literal goodbye scene, but it figuratively is. The audience learns that they will soon be parting ways and it is the last time they really speak to each other on screen. Obviously, since their actual separation would be caused by Mel dragging him away, they wouldn’t get an actual, proper goodbye. I think the writers really wanted to show the audience that these two care about each other a lot and would miss each other terribly.   

The only other goodbyes I can think of that matches the intensity, music, and dialogue of this scene are Dany saying goodbye to Jorah and Bran saying goodbye to Rickon and Osha. Jorah declares his love and Dany cries tells him that he has to get better because she needs him. And those two were one of the longest running relationships on the show and a popular BroTP/OTP for six seasons. Bran and Rickon, of course, were the last Stark siblings to separate and Osha had been Bran’s last proper guardian figure. 

And of course there’s “You wouldn’t be my family. You’d be m’lady.” Yes, this is mainly Gendry highlighting the differences in their stations. But... I do think the use of “m’lady” was deliberate as hell. “M’lady” is loaded with romantic connotations and has long been associated with dashing knights in love with noble maidens fair. Even today, there’s a stereotype of cringe-y guys trying too hard to get girls to swoon by calling them “m’lady.” Heck, even Joffrey trying to woo Sansa made a big deal about calling her “my lady” every time he spoke to her or about her.  Not to mention, seeing as Arya was Robb’s sister, wouldn’t it have been more likely she’d have to be referred to as “Princess”?  So you can accuse me of shipper goggles, but I don’t think it was a coincidence that a sentence that’s supposed to mean “I won’t be part of your family because I’m a dirty peasant” could also easily be interpreted as “I won’t be like a brother to you, you’ll be my wife.” 

Also, we already know that Arya does not have sisterly feelings towards Gendry. So her offering to be his family is especially selfless and sweet. Hey, while I’m being trash, I’d like to point out that family can mean brother and sister and it can also refer to a married couple. Maybe this is foreshadowing that Arya is the one to propose. Heh. 

Finally, Arya is not going to be happy staying in Winterfell for the rest of her life. We learn in season 6 that Arya wants to travel the world and see what’s west of Westeros. In season 7, we see that Nymeria has formed her own pack and is forging her own, unconventional path. Clearly, Arya is heading to a similar lifestyle. She is not a lone wolf, however, and she’s going to want someone to go with her. Jon, Sansa, and Bran couldn’t accompany her even if they wanted to. Hot Pie is happy where he is. Sandor is probably going to be 100% done with road trips. If Brienne isn’t too busy with Jaime (let me have my delusions dreams), she’ll probably feel more obligated to stay with Sansa. That pretty much leaves Gendry. And if you recall how quickly he dropped everything to go off with Davos, he has no reason to hang around, either

Bonus shipper trash reason-- the story technically kinda starts with Lyanna dumping Robert and eloping with Ragdoll Tergiversation so it’s only fitting that it ends with Lyanna’s niece eloping with Robert’s son. :) 

[steeledstark-blog]

some meta on sansa and arya and the evolution of their relationship through sansa's eyes?

@ofwintcrfell​ || send me stuff to meta || always accepting

Hi omg thank you so much for sending this in because look, Sansa & Arya is one dynamic I can just go on about for ages. I’ve been meaning to write this up and ew this is so long shjsgfjsf I am sorry.

 I would like to start this essay ( it literally is omfg ) with a quote, probably one MOST associated with them:

“You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you.”

& this always seemed to be applied to Arya’s end … but Sansa needed it just as much. She needed to realize that she needed her sister for strength, support, needed to RESPECT that Arya was not the perfect lady, that it didn’t mean that Arya just didn’t FIT into the narrative Sansa created for them. But I am getting ahead of myself, doing mini headers here to help organize myself better bc least organized hoe ever. see it under the cut bc fuck im getting this all out ok. 

CHILDHOOD

Look, Sansa was very much a perfectionist, so much of her childhood built on the assumptions she made on how life was supposed to be, everything fitting together nicely like in a song. Everything in her life, she tried to fit into songs and the social standards provided to her. She and Arya are very much Foils and so much tension from youth originates from Sansa, a lack of understanding that anyone wouldn’t devote their life to being liked, to making things easy for others. For being the perfect lady.

I don’t think things were really harsh between them back then though. Arya was annoying in her eyes, she was a pain and she was embarrassed by her, caring so much about what others think ( which really heightened in the pre-teen years ), but this quote, this one quote, really reflects how I think they had their moments. Moments which stuck with Sansa years later.

Things were simpler, they laughed and joked around, 

“She remembered a summer’s snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They’d each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she’d had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she’d slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn’t, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing.“ 

AND LOOK OK this is such a sisterly thing. To tease, to chase, but when things seem serious, make sure the other is okay and uninjured. When you are sure they are fine, fuckin attack them with snow, 

This pushes Sansa into embracing more of the fire which always seemed timid, meeting arya’s boldness, pulling her down, playfighting. Pulling out wolfish movements. They are laughing, this is a game to them,

This is the first instance of Arya bringing out the Stark in Sansa. And at the basis of Sansa needing her, it’s for the strength, for feeling like she can be brave too, that she can be Northern despite how people always says the South suits her. 

But then comes growing up more, and here I NEED to address something. Sansa bullied Arya. She said hurtful things, sometimes downright cruel, and it is constantly repeated in Arya’s POV chapters, clearly sticking with her. I love Sansa with all my heart but this treatment was NOT okay and it needs to be recognized. 

Why? Growing up, hormones, no adults really stopping her, Arya didn’t let it show how much the words cut. ( PSA not excusing Sansa here, she acted like most middle school girls act, my sister and I did the exact same to each other growing up at that age, we both regret it, and we both cannot tell you why, it’s that age - i know this may be a lazy excuse for it, but I really am stumped here ) 

But also after talking it out with people about sisters in general, is it a sister thing? bc i’ve heard from so many about sisters who did tease each other and it can get to that really hurtful point and yeah going to cut my ramble off here . . .

And then comes the direwolf situation, and its easiest for Sansa to place blame and frustrations on Arya, more than on the one she is convinced she can find love with and marry, more than the Queen who she admires, and most of all, it’s easier than the guilt of BLAMING HERSELF. Arya, is an unfair outlet to that, but still where she takes it out for a while.

KING’S LANDING

But you don’t realize what you have until it’s gone. Sansa didn’t. And over her time in King’s landing, she finds herself missing Arya. Finds herself constantly looking to see her. It’s not mentioned much in the books, I mean their associations has always been more mentioned in Arya’s POV chapters, but it’s here distance makes the heart stronger.

Sometimes, Sansa tries to meet eyes with the girl who is no longer there, meet eyes to be fed strength. She misses the rebellion, misses the free spirit. She believes Arya is dead and mourns her along with the rest of her household and her father.

But she can’t dwell too much, she needs to focus on survival. But this time she comes to appreciate her heritage more, regret the past, so much that she digs up what to regret and regrets it as well.

She dreams of her future, daydreams of it and when thinking of her children,

“sometimes there was even a girl who looked like arya.” perhaps showing an openness to who Arya was, an openness in her heart to try again, coming with maturing and realizing what is important. 

She dreams of seeing her family again, dreams of what she would change, and of course Arya is there. Arya, who had never deserved her blame or anger. Arya, who was different but that did not necessarily make her a bad bit in Sansa’s life. Arya, whose honest and true to self nature she much preferred to those around her.

Someone who would fight for her.

Someone, who she realized despite the cruel words exchanged, she would fight for now. 

But with Alayne Stone as a storyline as well, more of ‘ Sansa ’ is pushed down, and that includes her family, but still, Arya keeps surfacing, she cannot stop thinking about her sister.

And later on, moving into the show timeline beyond the books …

“summer is the time for squabbles” 

winter comes and the wolves come together

So upon a reunion, I imagine immediate warmth, lots of crying bc thought she was dead . .  

but a lot of uncertainty too because they are now different people, but there’s a chance actually getting to know each other? And it is something Sansa would look forward to, Approaching with an open heart.

There will be an appreciation for who she became, ( a show quote I stand by, calling Arya the strongest person she’s met, and not just by physical ability, but also emotionally and mentally ) Sansa would feel guilt for a child under appreciated and the pain she caused. And through the years she won’t stop apologizing even when told she was forgiven.

Actions would be taken to make things right between them. 

apologies, admiration, and solidarity. it is all I ask for with the future between them, and it is certain on Sansa’s end. She is never going to turn her back on family again.

And she will love Arya for all she is, and seek out the best ending for who they can become, together.