#also would give deniability to ooc moments

[thankstothe]

[elizabethrobertajones]

How after the mixtape are Dean and Cas' romantic feelings not considered canon? That shit was not subtext and even if you disregard the Mary and John Led Zepplin connection, mixtapes are almost exclusively romantic in fiction not to mention the whole returning one as a break up and framing of the scene. I just don't understand how even to the GA that was ambiguous. Honestly these moving goalposts are very confusing to me. Aside from PR not mentioning it I don't get what more the show needs (1/2)

to do, to establish that yes it’s written as romantic but that they are not in the being together stage. We don’t know what will happen in the future but to me 12x19 pretty clearly showed that at least at that point in their relationship, that’s where they were at. I wondered if you had any thoughts on it because it’s been nagging at me for a while? (2/2)

I mean, yeah, I have a LOT of thoughts about it because it was a sea change in the way Destiel presented, for me. There’s been MULTIPLE moments which took it up another notch, at pretty regularly spaced intervals through the show. I know my personal limit, when bingewatching 4-6 for the first time after an unintentional break from the show, was 6x20. Everyone who got into the ship without being prompted has a a moment along the way, whether it was considering all the ship teasing seriously, or thinking something about the narrative, or whatever, got to that moment where they actually hit the goalposts and started taking it seriously. 

I think several of the past moments that I find really important are also statements of intent - 9x18 for me was when I went from casual viewer and while I believed in Destiel I also saw it entirely as a subtextual creation that was not sort of… for serious consideration as a narrative tool/character endgame the show would ever even nod towards at the end of the day… to definitely thinking they were at the very least intentionally building their story with these blocks, and that it was worth investigating and exploring… That was Metatron asking us to consider the subtext and how it was a part of the story. That it wasn’t something that passes by like that but that there is an awareness and that it can and will give the story meaning. The episode being so full of strong Destiel subtext, it put me firmly where I am now in meta fandom with an overnight transformation >.> 

And 10x05 was the other one where there was a serious goalpost, where “Destiel” was said in text and a pseudo Destiel depiction happened on screen… To whatever degree it was jokey or wish fulfilment or could be interpreted this way and that as a statement to how Destiel stood in the text, it gave it a weight and presence it hadn’t had before. Even though fans had had a name for it all along, there’s something very important about naming the thing within the story and even having Sam sound out different versions of the name with pedantic detail. Between that and “I’ll just wait here then” it really established Destiel in the subtextual building blocks of the show in a fascinatingly meta way. 

Then for all the random canon events of maybe extreme shippiness, it was 12x19 that for me was a real SHIFT when it came to perceptions and presentation in the story, because of course even on the surface level it’s an extremely romantic trope to give a mixtape, and ignoring all the other analysis of the scene which only makes it worse, it betrays an enormous amount of emotion and care between Dean and Cas, in a way that’s coded strongly to our cultural perceptions as a romantic gesture having passed between them. Which means it’s another goal scored when it comes to… upping the ante of not-quite-canon-ness? 

I sort of feel like Cas’s death and return and all the connected stuff from the moment he’s stabbed through Dean saying “I do” and hugging him under the romeo+juliet glowing neon cross was either a further upping of the ante, or just showing us how to play in the rules which now exist post-mixtape, where this is the level of implied canon it’s at now… 

I mean I honestly keep saying and I mean it that pretty much since the mixtape or 12x23 I’ve been quite lost about how to handle Destiel in the sense that these were goalposts I didn’t even know I would expect the show to meet, or that if they did it would be the implied canon ending of the show where it gives us an equivalent gesture and leaves us to wonder what it was about. Instead it happens at this point and we’ve got over a season of Dean n Cas portrayed as exasperated husbands and all my interest and expertise in lawyering subtext to prove how gay it is has been left behind in its wake, so I’m just here to enjoy myself and see how it pans out now, because I set my own personal goalposts of what I assumed the show would do much lower than what Dabb set? Like, the reverse problem of people who keep moving them rather than examine the subtext and see what it says fairly without trying to lawyer their way out of what all these implications are instead. :P

But at least the mixtape made it very clear to me that you can now sort out the people who will NEVER accept something as good enough proof that the show even has romantic subtext for Dean n Cas and refuse to understand why people see it or ship it. To discount that entire conversation and the clearly expressed feelings of concern for each other, regardless of shipping, in order to claim that they don’t mean that much to each other and it’s ooc to suggest otherwise, means they’re doing the harder work when it comes to interpretation and THAT is a flipping of the stances from pre-mixtape where plausible deniability and doubt and stuff all mixed together to make it at least an awkward sell to people who hadn’t thought of it that way yet, and empowered people who wilfully didn’t want to see it. 

The Cas death arc just gave us more fodder for where shippers do less work than people who actively want to deny that Dean cares. 

But for general audiences, I think it’s quite easy to get stuck at the stage where I was pre-9x18 where Dean n Cas might even seem to be somewhat a ~confirmed couple~ except that people will lend it no credit to intent or their importance to each other in the emotional endgame, just for reasons of it not being done, or not thinking it’s possible, or in general not putting in the attention and time to piece together the relationship that a definitive canon statement would cause them to do a double take on. And that even if they then say they knew it all along, because many of these goalposts are unmissable in some senses, the credibility lent to the ship is fully missable without knowing to give it. Which is the whole problem, really. 

I’ve known the show long enough to feel its old school bones pretty deeply so I feel like that affects my personal perspective on… owedness of canon or where I started to take it seriously, and how much of the old gods of TV vs new gods possibility I would casually see in its genetic makeup. So 12x19 - being written by the new gods of TV - took the show a step further as Dabb seems to be the first showrunner of that generation of TV writers vs the ones who would play the subtext game forever - and that’s really unsettling to me. In the sense that there’s some sort of storytelling subversion thing going on here and my understanding is still kinda maybe rooted in an older postmodern take than what might end up being labelled something entirely new by future scholars… And a lot of that to me is in expectations and tropes no longer being what they were and I end up thinking of all the factors from the mass-saturation of media vs everything having to be new and individual to be considered worthy, to the effect of the internet, and the political climate in America, and the world the younger millennial writers grew up in (and we can see that literally warring with Buckleming’s old school writing in the show), and not just storytelling but representation of all walks of marginalised life coming into it, and it’s all a bunch of stuff that probably soon there’ll be a bunch of interesting scholarship on, but in the mean time we’re all riding the wave and in my personal experience I feel like we don’t even know what our surfboards are any more. 

I mean 12x23 seriously knocked me into orbit when it came to my understanding of the show, and I haven’t recovered yet. And since I spend a lot of time over-thinking as a matter of course, this is a tiny percentage of the ridiculous musings I have on it all and why I can’t just get mad at it for goalpost issues, and why I feel people lag behind and stuff. I feel like WE are lagging behind, even the people who claim to know everything about the show and analyse it all the time, and the best we can do is take it as it comes and see… But this is very much an utter fascination with watching Dabb era shed Carver era’s subtext cocoon and start testing its bizarre, mirrored, fractal wings.

[ask-the-yugoslavbunch]

Howzabout som serbcro angst ?? ;))

//I’m not the best at angst, and have no idea how to draw it, so I went with writing instead. This might seem slightly ooc I guess, but it’s only because this ended up being a very introspective piece, so you don’t get any of the front Serb puts up (and also 200 years worth of crap hasn’t hit him yet to make him even more gruff and stubborn).

I’m never entirely sure that the deeper layers of the characters, the parts they would kep to themselves, are visible to people just through the asking of questions on this blog, but I try aha.

anyways is this good angst? it’s pining but is it angst idk let me just stick to humor and fluff i can do those haa

Also historical note: It’s sort of mentioned in the story, but after the Treaty of Passarowitz from 1718-1739, most of the northern lands of modern Serbia were under Austrian rule as the Kingdom Of Serbia. In 1738-39 during the end of the Austro-Russo–Turkish War, the Austrian’s began to retreat from the area which caused the second Great Serb Migration as the Christian Serbs preferred being in a Christian empire to a Muslim one.

(also love to @qwertynerd97 for beta-ing this, and giving me the title which is a lyric from a musical about Huckleberry Finn (-shrug-))

FF.net (I’ve put my stories here too now)// Ao3

1718

Serbia stood in the foyer, and considered dropping his bag on theground, but then remembered that he was in Austria’s house now, and decided notto make a mess. Austria was a clean freak or something, wasn’t he? And Serbianeeded to be grateful to him, since he wasn’t with Turkey anymore.

As he glanced around the foyer, the differences between his oldhouse and his new one were becoming readily apparent. Turkey’s house had alwayslooked lived in. Very lived in. Possibly too lived in. There were so manychildren running about who had a vendetta against Turkey, and since he wasn’thome enough for them to take it out against him, his house took the brunt of theiranger.

Austria’s housewas the exact opposite of Turkey’s. It was immaculate, and practically shining,its polished floors andhanging paintings a far cry from the burnt walls and mud tracks back inIstanbul.

There was the sound of running feet, and Serbia turned to looktowards the hallway it was coming from just in time to see Vojvodina run throughand tackle his legs in a hug. She was still so small that, even running at fullspeed, their collision barely made him budge, and he laughed.

“Voj!” He exclaimed, not caring now whether he dropped his bagsin his excitement to see his sister.

Picking his little sister up, he grinned as she babbled about howhappy she was that he was here. He may have had to leave Kosovo behind, but atleast he saw his youngest sister now. She pushed her head against hiscollarbone, and he looked over her head to see Croatia standing at the entranceof the hallway.

“Austria sent me to help you get settled in. The little onetagged along,” Croatia grinned slightly.

And really, when it came to his feelings, that grin was thebeginning of the end.

-x-x-x-

Croatia had a sort of crooked grin, the kind you would associatewith a troublemaker. To be fair, Croatia kind of was a troublemaker. He had ashort temper, and a very strong belief system, and when cornered he couldbecome almost terrifying in his fierceness. Those were all quite useful backwhen he was independent and fighting wars; but now that he was a servant, allit got him was punishment for speaking out against Austria.

But he had a nice laugh, and he laughed often. When he wasn’tangry and raging, he always seemed so calm and welcoming, and he always hadtime to flash a cheeky grin or stifle a laugh. His laugh was one that rang fromdeep inside the person, and you could probably feel the vibrations of it, ifyou were touching his chest.

Sometimes, when Serbia heard Croatia laughing, it took all hiscontrol to not to reach out and try to feel the vibrations. Now, thatwould send the wrong impression, randomly trying to touch his chest.

Although he did really have a nice chest. Croatia only lookedaround sixteen, but he was firmly muscled from years of hard work and battles.His arms especially looked nice, from the work he had done the past few yearsas Austria’s landscaper.

Croatia also liked working shirtless, which Serbia tried hisdamnedest to ignore when they worked together in the same area.

It was in one of those moments, when Serbia was taking a break,staring at Croatia, and pretending that he wasn’t, that Serbia was hit by therevelation of how utterly fucked he was.

-x-x-x-

“Hey, Voj?”

His little sister looked up, eyes all wide and adorable.

“Yeah?”

“Do you think anyone around here likes anyone else? In alike-like sense, not just that they’re friends.”

No reason to make vague statements, Voj probably wouldn’t havegotten them anyways. And Serbia was interested in what she had to say, from themouth of babes and all that.

Voj scrunched up her nose as she considered his question. Serbiatried not to laugh as he patiently waited for her response. His littlest sisterreally was too cute.

“I think Mr. Austria likes Ms. Hungary. He’s very nice to her.”

Serbia stored that away to see if it was true, but it wasn’texactly what he was looking for.

“What about the others?”

Another long pause as she thought.

“Ms. Czech likes to stare at Mr. Croatia when he’s workingoutside, I think she might like him.”

There was a pang in his gut. That was the exact opposite of whathe wanted to hear.

“Do you think he likes her back?”

“He’s nice to her.” Voj shrugged and leaned against him yawning.

Serbia picked her up and carried his tired sister to her room,before going back to his own. That terrible feeling in his gut had grown.

Croatia was a nice person (most of the time), so of course he wouldbe nice to Czech. But Croatia and Czech had both been under Austria for a whilenow. Serbia and Croatia had probably known each other longer, but they hadnever lived together like that, had only seen each other sparingly beforeSerbia moved in. Serbia knew that he and Croatia were friends, but it seemed likeCroatia and Czech were closer than mere friends.

He just couldn’t stop thinking about it. It was an observationmade by a girl who was mentally only around four years old, but some part ofhim took ahold and made him believe it had to be true.

He didn’t get much sleep that night.

-x-x-x-

He never mentioned his feelings to Croatia.

He wasn’t sure if Croatia was into Czech, although Voj had beenon the mark on Czech’s staring habit, but he didn’t want to know. Plausibledeniability. If he didn’t know, then it wasn’t true. Simple as that. He couldjust stay as he was, watching from afar. He was fine with leaving it that way.

He had to be fine with leaving it that way.

-x-x-x-

Years went by, and Serbia began to get used to living inAustria’s house. There was more work now than he had while at Turkey’s, but hegot to drink and hang out with Croatia, see his youngest sister daily. He justhad to focus on the little things.

But his body began to ache as battles were fought on his land,and, as his people began to flee, Serbia knew his time with Austria was almostover.

He was becoming weaker from the migrations; even Austria seemedto take pity on him, and switched his chores from outside work to looking afterthe younger nations. Some part of him wanted to scoff at the women’s work, buthe couldn’t bring himself to. He really was too exhausted.  

One day, while the younger ones were napping, Serbia finallyacknowledged he wasn’t fine just staring after Croatia.

He was staring out the window and watching Croatia and Czechlaughing together outside, and something snapped. He didn’t like the hollowfeeling in his chest whenever Croatia made some comment on a human. He didn’tlike the irrational jealousy he felt whenever Croatia talked to Czech. Hewanted to be nearer to him, to be able to touch his chest, to kiss him, toactually say any of that out loud without fear he’d get rejected. His bodyached from the effects of war and his heart ached from keeping this in fortwenty years.

When Croatia came in for a break from work, Serbia was also inthe kitchen getting some food for when the kids woke, and his body moved beforehis mind did.

He lurched forward and grabbed Croatia’s face with both of hishands. Their teeth knocked together as Serbia leaned in too fast to kissCroatia. The kiss was brief and messy, more Serbia desperately trying to getall those feelings out in one action than anything else.

He pulled away as abruptly as he started the kiss, and he couldvaguely hear and feel himself panting. All he could focus on was Croatia’sshocked expression as the other man gaped wordlessly at him.

Serbia fled the kitchen.

-x-x-x-

He never did get any resolution to that moment.

Serbia was never alone with Croatia for very long after thatbefore he had to move back to Turkey’s house, as his own land had been retakenby the Turks. There had been one brief moment where they had been in thekitchen alone, like before. Croatia had opened his mouth to say something, butHungary walked in, interrupting him.

It’s whatever. Shit happens, things don’t always work out.

Or at least that’s what he tries to tell himself.