#and jin rusong

[admirableadmiranda]

I've seen it said that NHS had no right to do what he did, as JGY did killed his brother but left his sect and reputation intact, whereas NHS went too far to destroy every bit of JGY's life. But I have always thought it was perfectly fair. JGY used NMJ's worst nightmare against him, driving him to the death he feared most of all. Which, when you look at it, is just what NMJ's loving brother did to his murderer. I'm not saying NHS didn't do wrong to get there, but his revenge was really more than apt. Would you agree?

Jin Guangyao assassinated Nie Mingjue because Nie Mingjue was standing against his father and getting in the way of his buddy-buddy evil friendship with Xue Yang by declaring that he needed to die for wiping out the Chang clan. He also murdered a hell of a lot of other people and destroyed plenty of other people's reputations in the process, or both at the same time in Wei Wuxian's case.

Nie Huaisang might have gone farther than Jin Guangyao personally hurt him in his desire to take him down, but Jin Guangyao deserved it really. Where Nie Huaisang's wrongs are is in not looking out for the people on the sidelines, especially for people like Qin Su, or the juniors in Yi City.

His revenge is apt and he is certainly willing to stop once Jin Guangyao goes down, so he's still a much better man than Jin Guangyao ever was. Jin Guangyao did a million shitty, awful, murderous things and deserves to lie in his rage coffin forever.

[raine-hearts-art]

@qin-su-week Day 7: Monsters and Demons

Never mess with a mother.

[travalerray]

so I was reading the character profiles at the end of the book:

"only brain in the room" fair. Very fair

"raw fury" crying

don't do her like this

....don't do me like this

[lgbtlunaverse]

I have been thinking on the nature of mdzs as a deliberately vague text that leaves many things up to interpretation, and how i've slowly come to understand "up for interpretation" less as "there is One True version of this story i must find" and not even as " Everyone has a different One True Version of this story inside their head be based on their interpretations and the differences don't make one wrong and the other right" but as "There is no One True Version. Even in my own subjective interpretation of the text multiple things can be true at once" specifically, in regard to Jin Guangyao and the many things which are left up in the air as to whether he did them or not, most notably killing his son.

There's evidence for this, but it's non conclusuve (jgy saying he killed him while also saying he killed Qin Su, who very much killed herself. The speculations on how he'd have killed him being sect leader yao just saying shit. ) it is, esentially, just up in the air enough that if you decisively fall on one side of the debate is probably says more about you and your general opinion of jgy than it does about the "true" events of canon.

I have, as a proud apologist, always fallen on the "he didn't kill him but felt in some way responsible for his death." Side but recently have become more okay with the interpretation that maybe he DID kill him, and that at the very least, that when he tells Qin Su their son "needed to die" he is being genuine. Which, once you look at it beyond. "Is jgy a poor lil meow meow who it is Okay to Like or an irredeemable baby murderer" becomes both INCREDIBLY tragic and deeply interesting. Because here is a man condemned for who his parents were and who wants nothing more than to live, saying that it is possible to be so cursed by your heritage that you need to die. There is no existence for you. The exact same thing that has been said to him.

Of course being born out of wedlock to a sex worker and being a product of incest are different things, but that begs the question: where is the line? What crimes of the father can mean death for the son? How cursed can you be until your existence is so incompatible with society it is you who needs to give? And if there is... where is it? Qin su clearly thought she was past it. Was his son really past it? Is he?

[frodo-of-the-nine-fingers]

this is what i picture when y'all talk about jin guangyao and public infrastructure works

[kettledemon]

If Mo Xuanyu and Jin Rusong both lived to find out the truth….would Rusong call Xuanyu “JiuJiu” or “ShuShu”……..cause he’s both technically-

[poorlittleyaoyao]

oh my gosh and what if JIANG CHENG was the one who found A-Yuan in the tree so A-Yuan grew up in Lotus Pier as an adopted Jiang and alongside Jin Ling, so eventually we not only have Jin Ling processing that he doesn’t hate the two guys who killed his father, but also have A-Yuan processing that his childhood friend’s family annihilated his? and also now Jiang Cheng has TWO children.

[rejectedfables]

I think often about Jin Guangyao’s “[I murdered] my father, my (older) brother, my wife, my son, my teacher, my friend” quote. I think about how Jin Guangyao, a man known for self effacing politeness to the point of taking blame and shame onto himself to alleviate the tempers of others, in this moment takes complete responsibility for "murders” that he absolutely did not commit. And I think about how the audience both in the story and outside it, take his words at face value.  

I think there are multiple ways of interpreting who this quote is about. Obviously Father = Jin Guangshan, Wife = Qin Su, Son = Jin Rusong, those are clear. I think (older) Brother could either be Nie Mingjue or Jin Zixuan. I think "teacher” could be Wen Rouhan or Nie Mingjue. Friend could be Nie Mingjue, Su Minshan, or Xue Yang.

So I think the ONLY options for [brother, teacher, friend] (in that order) are: 

NMJ, WRH, and SMS

NMJ, WRH, and XY

JZX, NMJ, and SMS

JZX, NMJ, and XY

JZX, WRH, and NMJ

JZX, WRH, and SMS

JZX, WRH, and XY

I also saw a translation where he said “friends” plural, which would reduce the list to:

NMJ, WRH, XY and SMS

JZX, NMJ, XY and SMS

JZX, WRH, SMS and NMJ

JZX, WRH, XY and NMJ

JZX, WRH, XY and SMS

However, given the importance of his relationship with NMJ, I feel like we can safely eliminate any that exclude NMJ entirely. Similarly, there cannot be characters mentioned here who are unnamed or unknown to the reader, as that wouldn’t make any Doylist sense. We are left with a list that consists of Nie Mingjue, either WRH or JZX or both, and possibly XY and/or SMS. 

Regardless of which of those combinations you use, he did not directly OR EVEN DELIBERATELY murder everyone on that list. Let’s go through them:

Jin Guangshan: Yes, he deliberately ordered and orchestrated his father’s death. Outstanding, earned, poetic, no notes. (Okay maybe SOME notes, but like, listen. Listen.) 

Qin Su: Qin Su killed herself. In the animation, Jin Guangyao used the skull-piercing nails to force her suicide, but this is not canon to the novel. Bicao claims that Jin Guangyao must have killed her to silence her, despite her suicide having many witnesses (including us! the readers!), but Wei Wuxian (who WAS THERE) speculates that she couldn’t handle the reality of her marriage, as illuminated to her BY Bicao, or the prospect of societal shame if it got out. However, even IF “your actions drove her to suicide” were the rubric here, that’s still not quite the same as “you murdered her”, nor does it seem to be the outcome he was hoping or planning for. “JGY murdered her” is factually inaccurate, and a blatant propaganda tactic being used against him-- but perhaps it felt emotionally true to HIM because he’s grieving his DEAD WIFE and he FEELS responsible.

Nie Mingjue: JGY spent something like 5+ years suffering physical and verbal abuse and explicit threats of death by Nie Mingjue, then was tasked with killing Nie Mingjue by his father. He did so in a sneaky way, so as to not endanger himself further or get punished for (or perhaps cause an inter-sect conflict/war by) killing the leader of a rival sect.

Wen Rouhan: JGY stabbed him in all adaptations, A+, war hero.

Jin Zixuan: JGY, on his father’s orders, orchestrated a situation that led to Jin Zixuan’s death. We cannot know for SURE that JGY wasn’t aiming for his death but we CAN say that “Wei Wuxian accidentally compelling Wen Ning to kill the ONE GUY PRESENT Wei Wuxian did NOT want to kill” (OR “WN killing JZX of his own accord against WWX’s orders”) would have been a weird bet to make. This seems highly unlikely to have been JGY’s goal, but it was certainly caused by a situation he created. He also did not actually literally kill the guy.

Su Minshan: Su She died to protect Jin Guangyao from Nie Mingjue’s fierce corpse. Jin Guangyao is only “responsible” for this in the vaguest or terms and worst faith of interpretations. Technically Su She wouldn’t have died there if not for JGY on multiple levels (wouldn’t have had to protect him, NMJ’s fierce corpse being JGY’s fault, wouldn’t have been present at all if JGY hadn’t summoned him there, etc.), but if Jin Guangyao describes this as “I murdered him” that’s... a stretch. Again, like with Qin Su, this feels like something he might say because he FEELS responsible, rather than because he actually is.

Xue Yang: JGY ordered Xue Yang’s execution (or possibly ordered a fake execution, but this seems less likely) directly before he fled, injured, to Yi City. He did not die here. Later, after reconnecting and while still following Jin Guangyao’s orders, Xue Yang was killed by other people in opposition to Jin Guangyao’s wishes and plans. Again, TECHNICALLY Xue Yang would not have died when he did were it not for Jin Guangyao, but describing it as “Jin Guangyao murdered him” is QUITE a stretch. Due to the title of the “Villainous Friends” extra, which is about JGY and XY specifically, XY seems the most likely candidate to me for “Friend” in this quote, which is bizarre because I think his death is actually the LEAST connected to Jin Guangyao. Jin Guangyao wasn’t even present, nor did Xue Yang die FOR Jin Guangyao-- just on his payroll. BUT perhaps he still felt guilty for ORDERING his execution, and simply his willingness to HAVE Xue Yang killed counted enough to make the list.

I’ll get to the last one, but I’m pausing here to say: What all of this means is that no matter who is or isn’t on that list, it is NOT an objective list of factual murders. It is a list of people who’s deaths Jin Guangyao FEELS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Even before we get to who counts as teacher, brother, or friend, even JUST his wife solidifies this. But it isn’t JUST her either-- even if we cut SMS and XY (the other two BIG stretch candidates) from the equation, that leaves us ONLY with NMJ(friend), WRH(teacher), and JZX(brother). And Jin Zixuan is the other one that really should not make the list of people JGY “murdered”.

This is a list of people who’s deaths Jin Guangyao FEELS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Which brings us to the last one:

Jin Rusong: The quote (I believe this is a fan translation, but not sure) "One of the opposing sect leaders lost the arguments [about the watchtowers], and went into a murderous rage, killing Jin Guangyao and Qin Su’s only son. The boy had always been a good child and the couple had loved him dearly. Under resentment, Jin Guangyao tore down the entire sect in revenge” is, to my knowledge/memory, the only real account we’re given of what happened. “Lost the arguments and went into a murderous rage” doesn’t sound like the child was found dead some time later, and they had to investigate. It sounds like it happened in public, with witnesses, immediately. 

In the same scene where Bicao convinces an audience that Qin Su, who famously killed herself on screen in a room full of people with a (now) known motive for suicide, “must have” been murdered by Jin Guangyao-- in that same scene others speculate that Jin Rusong, who was famously killed by a political opponent in a “murderous rage” most likely DURING A CONFERENCE, “must have” been murdered by Jin Guangyao. 

I think "I angered an opposing sect leader so much that he killed my son" being translated by JGY into "I killed my son" is EXACTLY IN LINE with the rest of his list. How is that different than "I ordered Xue Yang's assassination, and later put him in a situation that caused others to kill him" being translated to "I killed my friend"? Or “Su She died to protect me” being translated to “I killed my friend”? Or “I didn’t anticipate my brother’s unwitting involvement in a covert operation would get him accidentally killed, which no one wanted, not even the guy who did it” being translated to “I killed my brother”? Or “I tried to protect my pregnant fiancé/wife from a horrible secret I only just learned, which would ruin her life, and when someone confronted her with it TO HARM ME she couldn’t live with it and killed herself” being translated to “I killed my wife”? It’s the same!

I do not believe that Jin Guangyao killed Jin Rusong. I believe “I murdered my son” is an example of the way that Jin Guangyao speaks about himself-- always taking the maximum responsibility onto his own shoulders. If he was in any way responsible, than he was completely responsible. If he FEELS responsible, then he MAY AS WELL have murdered them.

The context of when he says this quote also matters towards how we interpret it’s meaning. He was already attempting to flee the country, aware that the cultivation world was actively turning on him for crimes that he did AND DIDN’T commit. He was surrounded by people he thought cared about him, all of whom seemed determined to stop him from achieving a safe exit. He had had all the horrible things he felt responsible for (regardless of how directly or deliberately he was involved in those events) thrown in his face by said loved ones, while they looked at him with horror. Su Minshan had just been killed trying to PROTECT HIM, and now it looked like it had been for nothing anyway. Huaisang, who he is shown as doting upon throughout their decades long relationship, has just manipulated Lan Xichen (do I even have to go into how important Lan Xichen is to him? Please say no, please say this much at LEAST is universally understood) into BEING THE ONE to STAB HIM. 

In this moment, he believes that he’s going to die, and be reviled in death by society and his loved ones alike. He knows there’s nothing left he can say or do, he hasn’t had time to process Su She’s death, and Lan Xichen has JUST (accidentally) betrayed him (which he also hasn’t had time to process). 

And also, notably, he had very recently been IN POSSESSION of the TIGER TALLY. 

AND HE’S BEEN STABBED! To my memory this scene happens while he’s missing an arm and LAN XICHEN’S sword is still INSIDE HIS GUTS. His emotions and reasoning are probably NOT the most calm or rational right now (blood loss, pain, fear, grief, influence of the tiger tally, etc.), and this “confession” should be taken with that in mind. 

I just think a lot about how “I murdered [everyone I’ve loved except for you]” is such a raw and telling line, given the context. Even if it’s more like “I murdered [everyone I’ve owed devotion to except for you]”, that’s still so painful. He blames himself for all of it. All of it! The world celebrated Wen Rouhan’s death, but Jin Guangyao added it to his personal list. Jin Guangshan is arguably the most reprehensible character in the entire story, and ruined every part of Jin Guangyao’s entire life, but he’s on the list. He did everything in his power to protect Qin Su, and when she found out the truth he continued offering her ways he could protect her, but she chose to kill herself, and she’s on the list. He tried to improve the world with the watchtowers, and someone retaliated by murdering his son, and he claimed responsibility for that too.

He knew he was being blamed for their deaths, knew it was propaganda and slander and bad faith, but he blamed himself too. So he just... accepted it. I did it. It was me, I murdered them.

And so, so, so many people, in his world and in ours, were so, so eager to agree

[thatswhatsushesaid]

hi, what do u you think, if rusong lived, would anything change regarding who is to inherit the sect leader position? like jl's dad just would have been sect leader while rusong's is. or would it be about who has a bigger supporting/is mote popoular within the sect when the its time for one of them to take over?

hi hello 👋 i believe @fincalinde wrote a detailed post about what life probably would have been like for both jin rusong and jin ling, if jrs had lived! i can’t find it for some reason, but i would recommend checking their blog out and giving it a search for anything related to jin rusong.

the tl;dr version of my opinion, tho, is that i don’t think anything would have changed in the order of succession. his personal feelings aside, i think jgy knows that supplanting jzx’s son with his own as heir is nothing but a good way to confirm all of the jianghu’s worst beliefs about who he is, which would inevitably lead to conflict and potentially the loss of everything he’s worked hard to achieve.

i do think it is interesting to contemplate the possibility of jrs and jl as adults trying to navigate the dangers of secular politics together; what would happen if, inexplicably, jrs was more popular than jl at the time of jgy's death or abdication? 😬 someone (who isn't me) should write that fic.

[nebulathunderwave-art]

Jin Rusong and Qin Su requested by @achilleasfury ! A-Song demanded to be carried around by mom and made himself VERY clear 😤

[raine-hearts-art]

@qin-su-week Day 3: Peony

Jin Ling giving his auntie and the baby a bouquet.

[stardust-falling]

The golden hour comes before dusk falls.

~~~

Little Jin Ling and Jin Rusong were rather fond of Xuanyu-shushu, once.

[lanlanayang]

[ikarosapollo]

thinking about Jin Ling who only ever had one cousin he got along with, Jin Rusong.

thinking about little Jin Rusong following his big cousin around a lot and looking up to him so so much.

thinking about Jin Ling considering A-Song his little brother and being fiercely protective of him.

thinking about Jin Rusong who cries when Ling-gege leaves for Yunmeng in the summer and Jin Ling, five years old, who bullies his uncles into letting A-Song come too.

thinking about Jin Ling being six or seven years old when he loses his only friend.

thinking about Jin Ling spending the next decade with no friends his own age, with cousins who dislike him and pick on him for things Jin Ling had no control over.

thinking about Jin Ling befriending Lan Sizhui, Lan Jingyi and Ouyang Zizhen and not really considering them his friends for a long time simply because he hasn’t had a friend in so long.

thinking about Lan Sizhui who always makes sure Jin Ling feels included even if he’s being a bit bratty about it.

thinking about Jin Ling 15-16 years old, once again having a cousin he gets along with and considers his friend, Lan Sizhui.

[hannigramislife]

Me: *reads a lot of Nie Mingjue or Nie Huaisang fics because I am in a phase, consequently, reads a lot of Meng Yao fics, all centered in Qinghe Nie, and the relationships between those three and Lan Xichen*

Me: *constantly notices references to cold weather and forests and pine trees as Qinghe Nie's geography*

Me, one day, on a random mdzs wiki research:

Jin Rusong: Jin = "gold", Ru = "to be like" —

...

Song = "pine tree"

Me:

[jaimebluesq]

MDZS/CQL thought of the day:

Okay, love or hate me for this, but I JUST thought of this...

We all know how contentious the idea of Jin RuSong's death can be because some people think JGY engineered the kidnapping and murder for political reasons and others that he would never sacrifice his own son. And my brain just thought of a scenario where these two facts co-exist.

What if Jin RuSong had not been the intended target? What if the plan was for the kidnappers to take Jin Ling, and they grabbed the wrong child, and they didn't realize their mistake until it was too late?

It would be politically advantageous for JGY and his family to have Jin Ling out of the way - the boy is the last remnant of JGS's legitimate bloodline, and once he's old enough, it was expected that he would take over as sect leader from JGY - and there would be significant political pressure to support this, both from JGS's and Madame Jin's supporters even after their deaths, but also from JC who would fight for his nephew's inheritance tooth and nail. But if Jin Ling were to die, it would be a terrible tragedy - that would solidify JGY's family's position in the Jin, and give him an excuse to take out the sect challenging his authority - hell, it would no longer have been just the Jin vs the Chang because JC would go WILD and go murder them all single-handedly for touching his nephew. And with Jin Ling being a nephew JGY shares custody of with another sect leader far away, and having a son of his own to raise, his own attachment to the boy would be much less than that of him and his own son - making Jin Ling potentially expendable, because JGY's family always comes first.

So yeah, we don't know what the real story is, so much is conjecture, but this popped into my head, and now I want to scream and write fic to cheer myself up.