#and now he has no (male) heir and HE wants to make aerea his heir bc aegon is the chad of this family. also visenya got to him young

[novococain]

🦴

[moonlitgleek]

I would love to hear your thoughts about Fire and Blood when you finish it! (Or not even when you finish it, just whenever, cuz you're amazing!) 💕

I have the best friends in the world! Love and hugs, lady.

I am halfway through and I intend to go back and reread each chapter once I finish since I keep blowing through pages because I want to know all the things, which is not very good for proper processing. But a few of the things that jumped at me so far:

(spoilers for Fire and Blood volume 1 under the cut)

1. Gyldayn seems more rambly and prone to ponder sexual scandals than Yandel. He spent waaaay too much time talking about that, and while sexuality is at the heart of some conflicts, the way he went on about the story of Coryanne Wylde and the sordid details of how she was “examined” really undermines his position as a historian and makes me overly iffy on him. Also, there are private conversations between Jaehaerys and Alysanne that I’d really like to know his source on.

2. Speaking of authors, what the actual fuck George? You’d think that in a book that goes so into detail about unconfirmed scandals he’d have the room to expand on someone like, idk, Argella Durrandon? He had the chance to make her story a bit better but he not only did he uphold her forceful loss of voice being the last we hear of her, he compounded the matter by also having Marla Sunderland’s tongue removed before she was packed off to the Silent Sisters. Literal stripping of women’s voices for defiance, by their own men no less, when it’s so unnecessary and so singular in its gendered use in the plot infuriates me. There is a lot of overlap between gender and silencing of voice in this (Argella, Marla, Ceryse Hightower, Rhaena Targaryen). UGH.

3. On the topic of women, Torrhen Stark’s daughter not only does not have a name, she is completely unmentioned in Jonos Arryn’s rebellion, nor by her nephew (?) Alaric with either Alysanne or Jaehaerys. Looks a bit peculiar since Alaric obviously brooded on the consequences of Targaryen decision for his family in the case of Jaehaerys and those he sent to the Wall, so is there any particular reason Torrhen’s daughter goes completely unmentioned even when the topic of marriage was raised and southern matches brought up, George?

4. Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys are outright referred to as the three heads of the dragon. It’s no longer symbolic or understood but an explicit connection. That’s way too obvious for me to buy that Rhaegar’s Aegon and Rhaenys don’t point straight to a recreation of the Conquest Trio.

5. The war of escalating atrocities between Dorne and the Targaryens is terrible but I feel like there is a conscious effort to make the Targaryens seem better somewhat? The mention of them trying to negotiate at this point before actually utilizing dragonflame is weird because it is not consistent with anything in the Conquest. I don’t know what to do with that part.

6. The First Dornish War makes Daeron I’s folly in the conquest more obvious. Dornish terrain is as much an element to conquer as Dornish people and it costs a lot to manage it. Keeping conquered Dornish ground is bloody hard even with dragons. Daeron even leaves a Tyrell in charge just like Aegon.

7. Is it just me or does the Targaryen succession look weird in early days? Jaehaerys is referred to as the rightful heir by all rights then a few pages later it’s nope, Aerea is then suddenly we’re talking about Rhaena’s claim even though every reference to Targaryen succession before that points to a male-preference primogeniture. Alysanne takes issue with Jaehaerys treating Aemon as his heir over Daenerys even though Jaehaerys’ accession is tarnished based on that principle. There is a distinct vibe of seeing the son of Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was as the expected heir of Aemon rather than Rhaenys herself (though this could partly because Princess Rhaenys and Lord Corlys wanted to put forward a potential male heir to offset Baelon being seen as the natural successor - since when was Baelon seen as the natural successor though? That apparently wasn’t only Jaehaerys’ sentiment so was that a popular view while Aemon lived or a reaction to Baelon avenging Aemon? Was Aemon aware and that’s why he made a comment to Rhaenys about liking a grandson, or was that regular era preference of male heirs?). Main takeaway though is that Jaehaerys passing over Rhaenys had nothing with extant competing claims but was about regarding Baelon as a natural successor for his gender, age and prowess. Jaehaerys pretty much didn’t even consider Rhaenys. Headdesk. You’re killing me, man.

8. I feel like the characters of Rhaena Targaryen and Alyssa Velaryon are being walked back. The point where apparently Septon Barth comments that Alyssa undoubtedly wanted to do the right thing but didn’t know what that was flies in the face of her previously established actions. I don’t like how she was taken down from an active and conscious political player, to a confused and almost secondary player next to Rogar (much preferred him when he was Robar, both the name and the person) till their final tiff, to  a womb and another casualty of childbirth with the emphasis being on her children. Rhaena may have called out the latter but the whole thing feels like a punishment for Alyssa for first opposing Jaehaerys and Alysanne then opposing Rogar. As for Rhaena, she swings between political sacrifice for the greater good to treating Jaehaerys and Alysanne with contempt for it. Resentment is perfectly normal and understandable but Rhaena surpasses that. She is purposely cast in an unfavorable light and her sexuality is strongly used to frame it.

9. There is a bit of exoneration after the fact to Jaehaerys sentencing most of Maegor’s Kingsguard to the Wall on contradicting arguments. I get his point about oathbreaking but punishing those who deserted Maegor because they didn’t uphold their vows to protect hum while also punishing those who didn’t desert him for defending and enabling a murderous usurper is extremely contradictory. That the two knights who deserted Maegor then deserted the Night’s Watch and a caused a conflict that claimed the life of Walton Stark neatly brushes this quandary off because it demonstrates that Jaehaerys was right.

10. I love how Septon Barth and Alysanne often work as a team in pushing Jaehaerys towards one policy or another. On more than one occasion, one of them makes the argument and the other comes with the definitive final strike. I love the women’s court and Alysanne’s Laws though I think there is a certain vagueness in the way Jaehaerys codified inheritance in the Widow’s Law. I’m still midway through Viserys I’s tenure though so I don’t know if this will be raised in any sort of legal argument for the Dance but it’s a non-issue so far.

11. I hate how Daella Targaryen was written. I hate how we keep adding names to the “death by childbirth” list. I hate how the child brides keep getting ignored. This is too conspicuous in the case of Daella and her daughter Aemma Arryn. Queen Alysanne held herself and especially Jaehaerys to blame for Daella’s death because she felt that, at 16-17, they wed her too early and that contributed to her death in childbed. But it’s treated like a non-issue that Aemma married Viserys at 11 and was bedded at 13.

12. I’m indescribably charmed by how Baelon the Brave got his epithet by booping a dragon on the nose. Also, the relationship between Aemon and Baelon, and Baelon and Alyssa. Too bad we can’t have nice things.

13. I already lost my shit over this in DMs with you but still, Aerea Targaryen! Aerea Targaryen! Oh my god. I was equally horrified and fascinated. A speculated trip to Valyria that resulted in the princess’ body being inhabited by “worms with faces” or “snakes with hands” made of fire and heat that cooked her body from the inside. This surpasses Valyria being a thin place or geophysically unstable. This means there is a Lovecraftian horror capable of using human bodies (and non-human bodies, Balerion was wounded as well but dragons are fire made flesh so that probably protected him) as vessels to… spread? Take over? Turn people into dragonic/fire abominations? Also, also, is that take over possible for anyone or is whatever is dormant in Targaryen DNA that tends to emerge with the use of magic in the form of babies with dragon-like qualities (though it appeared in non-magical cases) makes them more susceptible?

COMPARE TO THE OTHERS. A Lovecraftian horror made of ice and another made of fire. Blood magic probably behind the creation (calling?) of both. We still don’t know how the Others came to be and there has been legitimate rebuttals to the show’s version of their creations BUT I think what could be taken from the show is the suggestion that this is blood magic gone wrong.Both take over human bodies though differently (is this linked to living bodies being warm and dead ones growing cold? Is that why the fire-based monstrosity manifests in living creatures while the Others trades in dead bodies? The things beneath Aerea’s skin burst out either when they felt the cold of the ice bath the maesters put her in or when she suffered cardiac arrest and died. Either way it’s connected to cold)  The cosmic balance between ice and fire has deeper roots….. now I’m really curious as to the nature of the magic of the Wall that keeps ice and fire firmly separated.

14. We are slowly building a succession history for the Starks: Torrhen Stark -> son (?) Brandon -> son Walton -> brother Alaric -> grandson Edric -> Ellard of undetermined relation. That’s how as far as I got in the book but that’s too far from the Benjen Stark that starts the Stark family tree in TWOIAF. Cregan Stark was already Lord of Winterfell by 129 so that’s a period of 28 years between that and the Great Council that also fits the aforementioned Benjen and his son Rickon, Cregan’s father and grandfather.

15. I’m so not a fan of the art in this book. It ranges from blatantly inaccurate (Aemond and Luke during the Dance, SIGH), to exaggerated (Elinor Costayne is weird in that art with Maegor. Also, did she wait to react till she climbed the entire Iron Throne? And Jaehaerys was cool and measured in his response to Maegor’s supporters after landing in the Red Keep. WHY does he look like he is yelling in the art?) to weird (Which of the Black Brides is dressed like a septa and why? Why does Jaehaerys look like all of 8 at his coronation when he was actually 14?). Perhaps that’s a bit nitpicky but I’m not impressed tbh.

16. GRRM overdid it with Jaehaerys’ reign imo. There is writing conflict because peace and prosperity is dull to write, and there is cramming every possible conflict under the sun in the story. Was there anything missing? I count family drama, political intrigues, succession questions, plague, policy changes, financial crisis, winter, and mini-rebellions. He reigned for a long time so I get it but at one point it was one conflict after another that I’m having trouble reconciling what I read with previous descriptions of Jaehaerys’ reign.

17. There is a lot to talk about with Jaehaerys and Alysanne but I want to get the timeline straight and give it some more thought. But I will say that as delighted as I am with all the women in Alysanne’s story and with Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s relationship reflected in policy, it’s monumentally disappointing to read about his relationship with his daughters. There was an underlining gentleness in how he treated his mother Alyssa and Rhaena that was sorely missing with some of his daughters. I came out of this part feeling really off and unsettled. And sad. So very sad. WTF, Jaehaerys. Just WTF.

That’s my preliminary thoughts on the first half of the book. It’s mostly feelings with a side of unsubstantiated and unresearched spiraling. Politics, worldbuilding and themes tend to appear on later reads.

(Edit: part two is here)

[moonlitgleek]

Could Alicent Hightower pull off her takeover if she birthed only daughters or only had young dragons? I asked other BNFs this and they ignore the fact of adult dragon riders on the black side.

Could she? Yes, though her game plan would have to change a little bit.

If she only has daughters, you’ll have an Alicent who is keenly aware that she will have no outside support to her daughters’ claim aside from her own family and those she can promise benefits to. Her daughters do not have a legal claim over Rhaenyra and the realm is not going to back the claim of a younger daughter against an older one, so she needs some pretext to get Rhaenyra out of the line of succession. Alicent would increase her efforts to publicly and legally discredit and disinherit Rhaenyra who certainly makes it easy for Alicent who only has to persist in her pursuit of the case of “the Strong bastards” to cast doubt on Rhaenyra’s character and legitimacy as a future monarch. In ordinary cases, a queen committing adultery is high treason since it compromises the integrity of the line of succession jeopardizing the whole thing. But kings are known to have extramarital affairs and produce bastards with no problem, you say. Yes, but you don’t see kings getting around to claiming bastard offspring as trueborn or trying to put them on the throne, do you? Even Aegon the Unworthy knew better. Rhaenyra is already at a disadvantage due to her being a woman, meaning she’d have people arguing for Daemon’s claim ahead of hears and that she’d be held to a different standard from a male monarch. Trying to pass Jace, Luke and Joffrey as legitimate heirs is claiming more privilege that even the men are allowed in Westeros. That stunt jeopardizes succession and has the making of a future war even without the Dance happening. All Alicent needs to do here is stoke the fire and find someone to “testify” about Rhaenyra’s adultery, and she’d weaken Rhaenyra significantly if not completely oust her, royal prerogative or not. You can count on Alicent doubling down on the case of Rhaenyra’s bastards and not letting it go for one moment.

However, this just steers the realm towards Daemon the Rogue Prince. Alicent knows that Daemon would be the rightful heir in the eyes of many in the absence of a trueborn son of Viserys’ body. The precedent of the Great Council of 101 favors Daemon, supported by Jaehaerys’ ascension to the throne ahead of his niece Aerea and Baelon being made Prince of Dragonstone ahead of his niece Rhaenys. Daemon is much more dangerous in this scenario that he is in OTL, especially if his marriage to Laena Velaryon still happens and he adds the power of the Sea Snake to his own. Daemon would be a much harder problem to handle if Alicent has no sons to trump his claim. She could very well try to get Viserys to exile him but it’s not like Daemon’s exile stopped him in OTL. Moreover, Daemon would have no need to persistently pursue Rhaenyra as he did in OTL since he would not need her claim to get to the throne. His own claim would be the strongest.

Honestly, the best way to neutralize Daemon is to get him on the Greens’ side. Laena Verlayon died in 120 AC so if Alicent could manage to secure a betrothal between the newly widowed Daemon and female!Aegon (if Viserys allows it), she’d have one hell of a power block on her side and pretty much guarantees her daughter’s queenship. Daemon can even aid in ousting Rhaenyra.

And thus the face of the Dance changes completely.

Now in the case of the dragons. I’m afraid I’m not good with strategy to give you a definitive answer (you might want to try @warsofasoiaf or @racefortheironthrone for that). I can take a shot at this but it won’t be anything too elaborate.

The adult dragonriders don’t have any bearing on the measure of the Greens’ success. The Blacks had those and more dragons in OTL and the Greens still had their king coronated and recognized in the annals of the Seven Kingdoms as a legitimate monarch, so I don’t see why the riders are considered a factor in your scenario. Additionally, bar Vhagar, the two other dragons used in the conflict by the Greens were young. Both Sunfyre and Tessarion are described as young in the text. Dreamfyre was a mature mount but it was never used in battle.

The drive for the war in that scenario is still the same, and so brother and sister are coronated by their respective factions and the ravens fly. The first blood drawn also remains unchanged since Aemond possessing a younger dragon would not change Lucerys’s murder, followed by Blood and Cheese killing Jaehaerys on Daemon’s orders and poor Helaena descending into suicidal depression. It’s at the Battle of Rook’s Nest that the absence of Vhagar could change the outcome. The Queen Who Never Was was an experienced dragonrider with an advantage in the fearsome and used-to-battle Meleys who is said to might have had a chance in OTL in a one-on-one against the formidable Vhagar. Against two younger dragons, Rhaenys could very well survive albeit injured and even kill at least one of the brothers. However, Rook’s Nest was a trap laid by Criston Cole and the Targaryen brothers with the full expectation of dragons coming. There is always the chance that they would adjust their plans if they don’t have the might of Vhagar at their back or take extra measures to make up for the difference in draconic power. How things play out is highly speculative at best, and a different outcome to this battle would butterfly a lot of subsequent events away. There are simply too many possibilities, all of which can change the course of the Dance entirely.