#anti rhaelya

[catofoldstones]

Idk which 16 year old needs to hear this but that 24 year old with a family is not into you. He’s just convinced that his child is the prince that was promised in an ancient, carried-down prophecy and only wants this child through you.

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

We all have the cognitive abilities to understand that Daenerys at 13/14 is a grooming victim and a childbride but for some reason that goes out the window for Lyanna Stark being signaled out by a grown man at 14, sexually groomed at 15 and dead by 16. How unfortunate.

Trying to frame Lyanna Stark as the other woman will never stop her from being what she is, a child victim of a powerful man.

[sunspearesque]

i can't even begin to understand the thought process of rhaegar and his utterly absurd decision to take the most powerful kingsguards with him to either fight or to guard his 15-year-old mistress/abductee (?) and their babe with questionable legitimacy while leaving behind his wife and his two children (one of them is his fucking heir) to be guarded by who exactly? 16-year-old jaime lannister? (who was “guarding” the king that kept him “hostage”)

rhaegar knew damn well his father is going even more insane after a war he started by his utter stupidity and selfishness and they won’t be safe yet he didn’t bother to ensure their safety before he fucks off… the only explanation is that he didn’t give a flying fuck about anyone but himself and his delulu which makes him complicit in their tragic death as much as his mad daddy who kept them hostages and the lannisters who slaughtered them

[atopcat]

I don't know what Rhaegar said to convince Lyanna to run away with him but I really don't think it was "wanna be my side chick/baby machine?".

This is Lyanna Stark, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the girl who didn't want to marry Robert because he'll be unfaithful, who wanted a sword in her hand but was denied because of her gender.

Do you know what would convince an impressionable young girl to defy her father? The opportunity to become a KNIGHT.

I honestly think Rhaegar deceived her with promises of a knighthood, to become the new Jonquil Darke, a woman in the Kingsguard who wouldn’t be forced into an unwanted marriage because she's not allowed to marry.

Lyanna wanted freedom and a chance to create her own destiny, what she didn't was to be trapped and pregnant in Dorne.

[martellspear]

We don't know the entire story yet, so it's impossible to make a judgement like you're doing.

I'd argue that Elia was in fact in on all of Rhaegar's schemes to bring about prophecy. They both knew she couldn't have anymore kids, and so she allowed him to seek out a woman who could...Lyanna.

A crown prince must have more than 2 kids, Elia failed her only purpose. No wonder Rhaegar turned to Lyanna.

I mean, Dorne seems OK with anything so long as there's an agreement between all parties involved.

Robert didn't love any of the women he slept with. His vows meant nothing.

Rhaegar meant everything. He cared for Elia and his children, but also seemed to be in love with Lyanna. His vows had meaning, even if they were interpreted differently.

Hi, anon. I'll assume you've read "tolerate it" and that's what made you come here.

We don't know much about them but I highly doubt Elia was 100% on board with everything. I think he shared some aspects of the prophecy but can you, honestly, tell me that she would take part in the most humiliating moment of her life? Willingly?

"Jon Arryn and Robert and Lord Hunter joking a moment before what was happening dawned on them, Ned watching as Rhaegar was about to stop in front of his sister, mad Aerys glowering in the distance, Elia stiff-backed and trying to act as if nothing was wrong, Jon Connington probably looking vaguely sad, and so on." — source

That's what Paolo Puggioni, an artist George hired, said the author himself told him.

One of my darling moots put in words, better than I would ever be able to, thoughts about Elia and the polyamory relationship some people like to insert her into, you can read it here.

Yes, Elia could be accepting and supportive of others who do it, it's their life. But she's the Crown Prince's wife and future queen. Why would she even consider adding one more person to their relationship? Especially knowing the consequences of those? And not only for her personal life and her children; think about Dorne, the Stormlands and the North's reaction to such insult and pair it up with everything the war cost (Brandon and Rickard died before it even truly started). "But with Rhaegar being king-" George has made clear how fragile monarchy in Westeros actually is.

Elia would put her children in a dangerous position if she not only fully agreed to Rhaegar's plans but also welcomed Lyanna and his bastard. Additionally, I'd love it if you could point it out for me where it says a crown prince can't have only two children (seriously, I'd like to know). Elia gave him two healthy kids and it almost cost her her life, she didn't fail anything.

(consider this to be about book!rhaegar and lyanna; my thoughts on their show version couldn't be more different)

I don't think Rhaegar loved Lyanna at all. And sometimes it honestly felt like he'd rather if she died after giving birth. She was a means to an end. Personally, I believe he manipulated her and then either kept information from her (she wouldn't stay if she knew what happened to her brother and father) or kept her there against her will; two disgusting scenarios. Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy, he changed his entire lifestyle for it. If it was love, he could've abandoned his crown and gone to Essos 🤷🏻‍♀️.

If Elia was aware, why wasn't she in Dorne and completely safe? Why didn't Oberyn know of this? "No, but he goes after the Lannisters-" he wanted justice. Even if the person who set them up was Rhaegar, the one who gave the order was Tywin and the one who did it was his beast. Aerys and Rhaegar were not people he could go after, maybe in his afterlife.

More importantly, and I'll be repeating myself here, it doesn't matter if she loved Rhaegar or not or how deeply she did it. Rhaegar's bastard is a direct threat to her children and their future and I doubt Elia - or anyone who hasn't lost their wits - would happily comply with that.

I have done nothing but gathering information and filling voids, what most do in this fandom tbh. There's little we know of how it was like but Rhaegar did hurt Elia again and again; and I do believe he was fond of her, which only makes things worse.

I don't have to know his thoughts to know that some of his actions were disrespectful, hurtful and disgusting; Elia doesn't have to agree or be aware of his plans for crowing another woman QoL&B (and later run away with her) to be humiliating.

Rhaegar, and Rhaegar alone, handled everything with all the sensitive and grace of a reversing dump truck.

[rise-my-angel]

Rhaegar stans are weak. They refuse to beleive they love a character who is a monster. Try being a Euron Greyjoy stan. I wanna kill Euron with my bare hands because he's never done a good thing in his life. Still one of my favorite characters though.

Have never defended him once in my entire existence.

Be brave enough to admit you stan an asshole, don't be a coward. Be proud you love an immoral monster.

[phntmeii]

people will fight in wars to protect their white girlboss faves until it comes to poc women. ignoring elia and laena who were fucked over by their connection to a targ man is batshit imo.

[saltywinteradult]

i still can’t believe that ”a 15 year old girl is not capable of consenting to a relationship with an adult man especially if that adult man is the king or a prince” is considered a controversial opinion in this godforsaken fandom

[fvckinaphrodite]

everytime i see rhaegar and rhaelya worshippers making up takes and theories i just wanna gauge their eyes out. you bitches are the vilest delulus when it comes to elia and her children. gtfo and kys already❗❗❗

[katshuya]

If Elia and lyanna's positions were reversed

If Rhaegar left his willful, tomboyish, and not like other girl wife for assumingly more feminine, Elia, would the reaction be the same?

Would R x L shippers say it's not their fault and we shouldn't blame R or E because R's marriage was forced to Lyanna?

That we just hate Elia being a girl who chooses who she wants to be with?

Or was it going to be a man who can't bear a woman being independent and strong and feeling challenged because Lyanna has a strong personality?

Would they say that Lyanna wouldn't mind as long as her child is heir and she gets to be queen and get rid of her jerk husband? or would it be humiliating for her?

Or maybe they would say Lyanna wouldn't mind because she is Brandon's sister as Elia is Oberyn's sister, and she is too independent her rough northern self doesn't care if her husband left her ? since she absolutely doesn't love him and because complicated relationships mean zero attraction/love and zero attempts to love each other

Would they say that it is alright because Rhaegar and Elia can be together? or are they going to blame Elia's Dornish nature for thinking she can be with a married man because she sees nothing is wrong with having bastards nor being with a married man? Are they not going to slut shame Elia?

Would they blame Lyanna's impulsive and more tough self for Rhaegar leaving her? like how it's justified that since Elia isn't as fiery or healthy as Lyanna for Rhaegar to leave her? or would they blame Elia for seducing Rhaegar with her more feminine and more allegedly submissive AND her seductive Dornish nature?

Would they write fanfiction about how Rhaegar prefers more feminine delicate desert flower than willful impulsive winter rose like how they do with Elia? Or maybe in their fanfictions, Elia's thrones would represent the stings she caused for Lyanna?

Would they accept the North not being angry and hateful with the Targaryens like how the Dornish shouldn't because the Dornish understand true love and don't mind mistresses or second wives at all in all scenarios?

Would people think Elia was kidnapped and raped? or are they going to be sure that it was consensual since Elia was adult and the sterotypical seductive Dornish, who doesn't mind mistresses and taking married man as lover?

Would they be it's fine because True Love! ? Or would they be furious for Lyanna because she helped and gave Rhaegar everything only to end up overshadowed by Elia?

Would they accept it if George's made it thay Lyanna was fine with Rhaegar having Elia because Lyanna was forced to marry Rhaegar and she and him have a very understanding paltonic love to the point Lyanna care not for her dignity nor all that she gave because she only cares for her child to be king and herself to be queen? Maybe Arthur Dayne, the knight who took his vows seriously, would break them to be Lyanna's lover in this scenario, so everything is ok?

Would they doubt that Rhaella ever cared deeply for Lyanna and Ashara was actully never close to her and just one of many handmaidens, as they do with Elia? Would they say it is because Lyanna is so minor and just a plot device for the North to hate the Lannisters, like how they did this with Elia and Dorne?

Or perhaps Lyanna would be fine because she wants Elia too?

Would the fandom be as apologic with Elia as they are with Lyanna in case she eloped willingly and say that she was totally faultless? and shouldn't be held accountable because of "girl's girl" and "don't put woman against woman," so no accountability? Or that Elia was manipulated by Rhaegar?

And Rhaegar, would the fandom see him as blameless/not that guilty as they see him when he left Elia? Would they also sympathize with the melancholic prince and say: let the poor man have a break and be with his true love! ?

is it a work of art and star-crossed lovers between Rhaegar and Elia in their eyes now? And as someone said, a progressiveness?

Or Would they criticize George for doing this to the cool willful not like other girls Lyanna?

Anyone associated with polygamous culture knows how unrealistic it is for Elia to accept a second wife without being upset about it and has no other choice. And we all know that most will not just be unbothered by it. Women in polygamous/polymorous culture do/would not simply accept it, and when they do, they aren't happy and ok with it. We are humans, and the Dornish are humans, too.

That's just in George's head.

[eliamartel]

The loudest lyanna stans really think she'd run to a married father of two to joyously have his kids 😂

[elegantwoes]

@katysenju Do you honestly believe a 15 year old girl could ever have a normal healthy relationship with a 23 year old man? Especially a 15 year old who hates fuckboy behavior? That 15 year old would be okay having an affair with a man who’s married and has two children? You Rhaelya shippers do like to shit on what little characterization that Lyanna has. Based on her personality Lyanna would never ever have eloped with Rhaegar. Miss. Love won’t change a man’s nature just wouldn’t.

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

Posts like these are why I fear for Nettles ^ & posts like these prove to me how misogynistic and racist TB is while pretending to have “moral” superiority.

[yourlocalnetizen]

Nothing makes me dislike RxL like RxL shippers, just truly some of the most sociopathic misogynists in the ASOIAF fandom and that's really saying something considering how awful this fandom is. They need to keep Elia's name out of their mouths ISTG.

For real!!!

I like both Rhaegar & Lyanna as characters and what they bring to the story but their shippers are gross.

Like yes Ratgar is an interesting character, yes Lyanna is an interesting character, but NO that ship isn’t cute and Elia absolutely deserved better.

[martellspear]

idk but "he found her hiding under her father's bed, as rhaegar could still protect her" is enough for me to loathe r/l

all mentions of rhaenys are so heartbreaking not to mention literally every other fucked up thing this disgusting ship is built on

and i know some say "but it was the lannisters!!" tell me WHY did tywin got the opportunity to do that?

[rise-my-angel]

It is much easier for me to believe that Lyanna was manipulated by Rhaegar in some way, if not outright kidnapped. You won't believe me but I have seen people argue that since we know her personality was like Arya's so how could she "allow" herself to be kidnapped 🤦🤦 as if Arya doesn't get kidnapped so many times. The biggest evidences though for Rhaegar being a sinister figure are found all over Sansa's story. Bael-ish kidnaps Sansa, Joffrey sings a song for her and Marillion offers to make a song for her, calling her a rose, and all these men sexually assaulted her. Tyrion on their wedding, wears rubies and he forcibly married her.

My best guess for what actually happened is that the only way in which Lyanna "allowed" herself to get kidnapped, was by not pulling out a sword she didn't have/was not trained to even use, and fight back against grown men trained in combat.

So, here's my theory:

What likely happened, (in my opinion just to cover my ass), is that Rhaegar at the tourney at Harrenhal gifts the crown of love and beauty to the already betrothed 14 year old Lyanna, since he likely knows that Elia will not be able to have more children after Aegon is born, considering she known to be prone to illness and was in medical distress for some months after giving birth to Rhaenys. And at this point he is obsessed with this prophecy and he thinks he needs three heads of a dragon, i.e three children born of his line. And he will need a third child from someone after Elia can't give him more. So, he chooses Lyanna and has to bide his time.

It isn't an unreasonable guess to say that it probably was becoming more well known that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert due to his irresponsible appetite for bedding many women. It makes sense people could put that together, Lyanna is dedicated to her family and Robert would undoubtedly be unfaithful their entire marriage. If Rhaegar has developed an obsession with her being the one to provide him that third child, it makes sense he learns she is unhappy in her betrothal.

Likely somewhere around the Vale is where this happened, considering the timeline of where all of the Starks currently were at the time she disappeared. So when she is in the south, Rhaegar has a lot more resources to do this. So he waits for a time Lyanna is alone and approaches her. Now she's just a 15 year old girl now suddenly alone with the Crown Prince, likely as intimidated as she is a little star struck considering who he is. Rhaegar needs to lure her away far enough that she won't just run for help. So he promises that as the prince, he can help legally break Lyannas unhappy betrothal for her but does not tell her how.

Offer her something she wants without details and get her to come with him. By the time Lyanna likely put together this isn't what she thought it was and that she's too far away from her family to be safe, is when the actual kidnapping occurs. She goes with him willingly thinking he wants to just help her with something in her life, with no way of knowing he was about to separate her from her family.

By the time Lyanna realizes she is in a bad situation, she's too far away from anywhere she knows to get help and has no choice but to go with him. She is 15 years old, she's just a girl now fearing for her life if she tried to run or fight now. And by the time he takes her to Dorne, he keeps her in a tower with three of the best Kingsguard to ensure she does not escape and no one comes to get her out. He then stays there until he knows shes pregnant, a situation she also likely did not fight back on because of how isolated and powerless she already is here. She is all alone, fighting back could mean her life.

Then of course, word gets out of what Rhaegar has done, Brandon Stark, who has no way of knowing he's taken her to Dorne, goes to Kings Landing to try and demand his sisters return, accompanied along with their father to help and the rest is history.

Make no mistake. They never spoke before that day.

Rhaegar was the Prince and heir to the Iron Throne, who is married to a Dornish Princess and now has 2 children of his own including his own son and heir. Lyanna is a 14-15 year old girl, and the firstborn daughter of a major Northern house who live a thousand miles apart in completely different regions of the country. They would NEVER have been able to share any correspondence together and no one knew or would have found out long before that day.

Ravens dont just fly to the person the letter is for, it goes through a system of people, usually a Maester who facilitates the incoming and outgoing letters, who then either himself or a squire, hand delivers the letter to the correct person. Note most times especially in the first season, when important letters are delivered to the Starks its by either Maester Luwin or Grand Maester Pycelle, and the letters seals have already been opened, hence why they know who to deliver the letter to. Example: How would Luwin have known the letter at the start of the series was from Lysa or how would he have known it specifically was for Catelyn if he did not have to open it first to read its contents to find out.

SOMEONE in the Stark household would have realized that the 14-15 year old Lyanna was receiving letters from the Prince, if not just someone important from Kings Landing, and stepped in then and there. And if he wrote her out of the blue, the first thing Lyanna would have done was tell her family that the PRINCE had sent her a letter. We know the Starks are all very honest with each other, if he wrote her out of the blue, she would've told her brothers.

Also, there are spies everywhere in Kings Landing. If Rhaegar was sending secret letters, someone would've found that out and to whom. Note Catelyn had said she doesn't trust a raven to carry the words to Ned about the attempt on Brans life, or her saying Lysa's head would be on a spike if the wrong person read her letter about the Lannisters. Meaning even she well knows that it is very easy for letters to get into the wrong hands.

Someone (lets be real, probably Varys) would have learned Rhaegar was sending letters to Lyanna. Which in the well over a decade after her death, would have said something to SOMEONE that they were sharing correspondence. Davos line in season 2 of "Lord Varys knows what you had for breakfast three days ago. There are no secrets here." Is clear cut enough to imply that even a man who grew up in Flea Bottom, knows that if you live in Kings Landing, Lord Varys knows you and your secrets already.

Rhaegar was not sending secret letters to Lyanna and no one knew or no one said anything in the conflict that followed or in the decades since.

Lyanna did not run away nor go to him willingly, she would have no way to even communicate with the Crown Prince and heir to the Iron Throne without a single soul learning that information. Her family would have found out and the Starks would have done something about it then and there.

Lyanna likely went with him thinking that he was taking her somewhere reasonable to help her legally end a betrothal she didn't want, not knowing it meant he was taking her away from her family and by the time she realized, she was likely too powerless and in lands she's never been in before to try and run.

Also Lyanna deeply cares about her brothers. The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is all the evidence needed to show that she is deeply loving and loyal to her family and the people of the North. She would not run from them just beacuse of a betrothal she didn't like, she loved her brothers dearly.

She was taken from them. She was tricked into walking into a kidnapping under false pretenses. Rhaegar was a fully grown man in a position of great power who used Lyanna's young naivety and venerability to his advantage.

Lyanna did not need to be carried away kicking and screaming for it to still be a kidnapping.

Also the idea that Lyanna did not want to marry Robert because he already had bastards and slept around, would leave her entire life and family behind to run away with a man who is married with 2 children is braindead.

And if I even hear the word annulment, I will explode into rage like I'm Oberyn Martell's fucking head.