#anti rhaegar

[rise-my-angel]

So I was fan casting Lyanna Stark, and when I workshopped it to my friend he was like "dude why did you make her look so young thats kinda creepy compared to Rhaegar"

So I had take the time to be like, "Well you see Lyanna was 15 when she was taken and 16 when she died so I chose a fancast where the actress in this specific movie was 16 at the time of filming." And he had to kinda be silent there for a moment because he clearly forgot how young actual 16 year old girls look compared to adult men.

All the while I'm sitting there feeling like:

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

Honestly the timeline around the pregnancies of Elia of Dorne is reason enough to hate on Rhaegar Targaryen.

[katshuya]

Rhaegar's wife, who had delicate health, gave him two children. One caused her to be bedridden for half a year and another that he impregnated her with during her recovery or, immediately after and almost killed her, deserved that crown.

Yes she deserved it more than Lyanna Stark who braverly defended her father's bannerman yet impulsively and naively when there was a well known mad king watching and entered as a mystery knight that grabbed everyone's curiosity for being unknown.

Elia Martell, who endured Rhaegar, his prophecy, racist people, and their opinion about how unworthy she was for him AND his racist, mad cruel father desrved respect as well as that crown.

Yet she was gifted with humiliation one after another after all that she sacrificed.

This will trigger many. But that crown was Elia's right after all the hell this strong woman had been through. Not Lyanna's. Yet, in the narrative, it is all about Lyanna and the winter rose.

Rhaegar only endangered Lyanna, and even if Aerys and Lyanna's family and betrothed weren't there, it was still Elia's right.

Honoring Lyanna could have been done more respectfully and wiser, yet it was extremely dumb and cruel.

Yet the audacity to put Elia in such a humiliating situation

She deserves more respect and attention from GRRM, which I doubt he will grant her any true respect.

Elia was killed for the sake of the narrative. So the promised one can happen. She was used and then killed in an unnecessary way for it.

What even happened to Elia's body along with her children's? Definitely weren't sent to Dorne. While we know Rhaegar's was burnt and Lyanna's in winterfell.

If George wanted us to like the Rhaegar x lyanna thing, then he failed miserably. For sane people, of course.

This will always be where he failed the writing.

We hear of Lyanna's suffering in the books, and how she was killed to bring important child for the future of the realm and its safety yet we barely hear of Elia's, who gave and suffered much, much more.

I like the Starks, but this is where George crossed the line with his favoursim.

She is barely there in the narrative, yet her story and the things she had been through and everything associated with her upbringing make her more interesting character than Rhaegar or Lyanna to me and many people.

I believe George unintentionally made her more interesting to many of us when he wanted us to care for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Edit: I'm talking about the crown, not the winter rose itself. Since some Rx L shippers entered the asks and were acting so unruly like usual.

[ichooseviolence]

"The Red Keep was the safest place for Elia during the battle!" Except it wasn't. It should have been, but it wasn't. Tywin wasn't the only threat to Elia's life. Aerys held her and her children as hostages and was 100% willing to execute any of them if he felt that her family stepped out of line.

Elia was surrounded by enemies while her husband was away, and Dorne would have been the safest place for her. But if Elia went to Dorne with her children, then that means her family is free to take up arms against the T@rgaryens. So, who decided Elia should remain in Dragonstone? Was it Elia or Rh@egar? No way Elia would feel comfortable being so close to Aerys without her husband there. The more I think about this, the more ominous and disgusting I find it to be.

[thenoteofdeath]

Poor Rhaenys she loved him so much and her last thoughts were about him. I wonder when exactly she realised that he wouldn’t come to save her .

pc: @starry-asterin

[asharaxofstarfall]

"Well, Jon Arryn married Lysa when she was fourteen and we don't hate him for that or call him a pedo" um, who is we???

[esther-dot]

I was reading your comments about Jon's chivalry and protecting the vulnerable. This all brought to mind Jon's TV ending of stabbing Dany in the heart while kissing her. While we don't know whether or not this version of Dany's end is close to what will be the written version, it seems as though it's possible in part because of the Nissa Nissa legend. Jon doing that in the books (or something like it) would align with the Azor Ahai story, but in a warped sort of way, leaving events open to interpretation (as is usual with the prophecies and legends). But in any case, Jon killing a woman will be an act that is antithetical to so many of his values that it seems like it would come close to destroying him even if justified within Jon's universe. I wonder if Martin really plans to bring Jon this low, but also how it will be received. The optics of portraying such an ending for Dany given today's sensibilities could be viewed even more dimly than it would have been when Martin started writing the series?

(about this ask)

I'm so sorry that it's taken me this long to respond! I have finally reread some pertinent chapters to situate my thoughts.

First, I just want to acknowledge how upsetting this spec is to some, and remind everyone, no one wants this ending. We all think it's gross, we're just discussing the possibility, not merely because of the show, because it's an old theory. I looked around and saw posts about this starting in 2013 by Dany fans. So, the presence of this myth is substantial enough, even BNFs/Jonerys shippers felt like it had a strong chance of manifesting (although they believe Dany would willingly sacrifice herself) well before D&D committed their fuckery. I suppose all that answers your question. Man killing his lover is a gross trope, being forced to kill a loved one to save the world is overused, so now, I can't imagine anyone reading it and being happy about it.

In trying to look at the context in-canon Martin has created, he's taken it out of the strict man kills lover idea of the AA/NN myth, and is discussing the idea of sacrificing an innocent child to a god which fans have already compared to myth, Stannis & Shireen = Agamemnon & Iphigeneia. This sacrifice hasn't happened yet, but it's been confirmed as a Martin plot point. Stannis is already burning people alive, justifying kid killing, and Davos has already planted the Stannis=AA, kid=NN idea:

Davos was remembering a tale Salladhor Saan had told him, of how Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer by thrusting it through the heart of the wife he loved. He slew his wife to fight the dark. If Stannis is Azor Ahai come again, does that mean Edric Storm must play the part of Nissa Nissa? (ASOS, Davos V)

Although, rather than this being a justified death, the fans will be horrified as we're meant to be. Davos' thoughts call into question the idea of killing another for your "magic sword":

A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost . . . When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good-natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided. If that was the price of a magic sword, it was more than he cared to pay. (ACOK, Davos I)

and Martin impresses upon us the value of each life:

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ." "I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly. (ASOS, Davos V)

The talk of greater good/killing kids reminds me of AGOT in which Ned's story is inundated with the topic of child murder/protecting kids. We have Mycah, his memories of Aegon and Rhaenys, his promise to protect Jon, his guilt over his lies and treason bubbling up repeatedly, his fight against the assassination of Dany, his attempt to save Cersei's children from Robert...we all know, kid killing is wrong according to Martin, so we've already been told that this wannabe AA's actions are contemptible. The myth in which the sacrifice is happy to die, that sacrificing someone is heroic, it's being contradicted by what we're being shown in the Stannis storyline.

Now, while Stannis is being declared Azor Ahai, we're constantly being told he isn't. Jon calls the act a mummer's farce and comments on his cold sword and that is right before a Dany chapter, so the idea is, Dany is actually AA. @trinuviel is the first person I saw lay out the argument for that and contend that being AA is a bad thing (meta parts 1, 2, 3). People have said that Drogo kinda becomes her Nissa Nissa in that scenario. She burns him to get the dragons, and what are the dragons called?

"When I went to the Hall of a Thousand Thrones to beg the Pureborn for your life, I said that you were no more than a child," Xaro went on, "but Egon Emeros the Exquisite rose and said, 'She is a foolish child, mad and heedless and too dangerous to live.' When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." He wiped away the tears. "I should have slain you in Qarth." (ADWD, Daenerys III)

That kinda makes us think, oh, the myth already has a canon counterpart, don't need to worry about it anymore. Only, we've also said Rhaegar impregnating a young Lyanna could be read as a play on Nissa Nissa, with him risking her life to get the prophecy baby, otherwise known as the third head of the dragon. And Jon is not only a kind of dragon, he repeatedly intones that fun little phrase about being a sword, and sometimes, that happens within an interesting context (for speculation purposes):

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. (ADWD, Jon VIII)

So, although there is one character that seems to be Azor Ahai (Dany), I am definitely open to the myth manifesting, or rather, being examined from multiple angles. IMO, that's what Martin is doing and we can use each variation to reassess what he's saying with it. We have Dany and Drogo (the official one/successful one), Rhaegar and Lyanna (not AA, but Jon is born), Stannis and Edric (denied), Stannis and Shireen (he will kill Shireen, but we don't know if he'll get what he wants and we do know he isn't AA)... lots of pics of a similar idea. To emphasize Stannis not being the dude and Dany being the "real" AA, we have that Jon passage and chapter transition:

Even though we have lots of contenders and commentary about this myth with the canon characters, none of it romanticizes human sacrifice, and all works towards the twist that what is said to be a hero/the weapon that will save people brings destruction. If we look back at it critically, Dany has a habit of accepting, or even causing, the suffering of others for her greater good, including sacrificing Mirri to get her dragons. We might even argue that Mirri is a Nissa Nissa for her, as Dany had taken Mirri under her protection before killing her to get dragons.

That being said, even though we're getting told this shit is bad in canon, the indictment of killing innocents and people who depend on you to protect them, it wouldn’t apply if someone were to kill Stannis or Dany. It isn’t on the same moral level as killing a child, or a spouse who loves and trusts you. It isn't the same as invading and then killing people who won't worship your god or accept you as a leader. It isn't the same as killing a slave, simply because, when their times come, Dany and Stannis will be guilty. After their actions, it would be justice for them to die. I think why other parts of the fandom entertain the idea of Dany as NN while also condemning us for entertaining it, is that Dany's vision does have her being grasped at by hands of her "children" and fans have this idea that she is sacrificing herself/her happiness for the greater good already, and in the AA/Nissa Nissa story, it does sound like she offers herself willingly for the tempering of the sword. So to them, it’s part of Dany’s heroism. Dany's death is inevitable to some, at the hands of Jon is ok, but her not dying a hero, that's unacceptable.

But thinking about how it's been discussed thus far, I can't imagine we're gonna get a romanticized version of the AA/NN myth in canon when so far, it's pretty dark/condemned. None of that precludes Jon killing Dany in what you described as a:

warped sort of way, leaving events open to interpretation (as is usual with the prophecies and legends).

which really sticks out to me as the important part of all this.

The idea that Jon might do it and characters recognize it as a tragic love story a la the myth, that fascinates me because of how Martin has written wild rumors into the story (rumors about Dany, Robb, and Sansa spring to mind), and some of us have written reality and what the public thinks into fic as two distinct things because it feels like a potential way the story might go. What is widely known to be true, like say, Jon being Ned's bastard, may not be the truth that we the readers come to know. There's no guarantee that Westeros will know what the readers know about past or future events. We may get a take on AA/NN, the characters in-world may not understand it the same way.

Jon is undeniably a hero, in a world where institutional corruption is rampant and ideals abandoned, he’s a standout in his values. We would expect, and we find, contrasts between him and these other characters (Dany, Rhaegar, Stannis), primarily, his practical actions that are about saving life/protecting life, even from Stannis, so the idea that he would abandon certain values, it's a tough one. The difference is, while Stannis, Rhaegar, and Dany were acting on these prophecies or visions or dreams, things we're repeatedly warned against trusting in the text, Jon would be taking action based on the fact that Dany is a mass-murderer, a threat to all of Westeros. It isn't a sacrifice to an unknown god for some promised mystical good, it's justice. The religious fanaticism wouldn't be a factor, the killing of an innocent wouldn't be a factor, killing a child wouldn't be a factor, killing to achieve a self-serving end wouldn't be a factor. All the things that have been criticized thus far aren't at play.

The moral quandary presented to the audience in AGOT is killing someone who might be a threat, but is a child at the moment, and Martin presents the sneaky assassination / child killing as abhorrent:

Grand Maester Pycelle cleared his throat, a process that seemed to take some minutes. "My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now, so I bear this girl child of his no ill will. Yet I ask you this—should war come again, how many soldiers will die? How many towns will burn? How many children will be ripped from their mothers to perish on the end of a spear?" He stroked his luxuriant white beard, infinitely sad, infinitely weary. "Is it not wiser, even kinder, that Daenerys Targaryen should die now so that tens of thousands might live?" "Kinder," Varys said. "Oh, well and truly spoken, Grand Maester. It is so true. Should the gods in their caprice grant Daenerys Targaryen a son, the realm must bleed." Littlefinger was the last. As Ned looked to him, Lord Petyr stifled a yawn. "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it." "Kiss her?" Ser Barristan repeated, aghast. "A steel kiss," said Littlefinger. (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

which is all interesting context for Dany later being assassinated, especially because the first lesson Martin gives us on justice is one that Jon is there for, and then is reiterated in relation to Dany:

Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" He pushed back his chair and stood. "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least." (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

The convo about killing Dany with LF is about a bedding and before that it was presented in terms of a wedding gift, which makes me squint now knowing the AA/NN stuff:

Yes, it's awful, and I do understand, almost agree with you here:

But in any case, Jon killing a woman will be an act that is antithetical to so many of his values that it seems like it would come close to destroying him even if justified within Jon's universe.

but the way it might tie together the initial discussion of killing Dany and the eventual act weighs heavily with me when determining what Martin might do and why/why not.

The other suggestion is that Arya kills Dany. If having dragons is Chechov's gun for KL burning then Arya being a trained assassin feels like a Chechov's gun for killing Dany. But in that scenario, there is no conflict. No inner struggle. We spent so much of AGOT weighing the morals of killing Dany, it's hard for me to believe when the time comes, it's presented without any moral complexity. Arya is already able and willing to take a life, even when it isn't justified. It doesn't feel right to me that killing Dany would be a presented without an inner struggle, that it would be done easily, as easily as Arya now kills. TBH, it removes the drama if someone other than Jon does it because it will be so highly necessary and just when the time comes. Jon is really the only character who can make it squeamish because of the guy killing a woman thing and because it will be kinslaying.

There is a lot of talk about poison, so I think it's totally possible Arya tries to kill Dany with poison first, but I think Jon is more likely to be the one to successfully kill her, and in a way that calls to mind Ned's opinion on it, See her tears, hear her last words. That would allow Martin to make sure we see it as just/moral, bring home the Targ v Targ issue, and it shades Ned's decisions and values in a very interesting way.

After s8 fans said Ned was wrong to fight against killing Dany in s1, but Martin thinks he was right to object to killing children, so for the two Targ children he was protecting in AGOT (Dany and Jon) to come face to face and one kill the other prevents the conclusion that Ned was wrong. It was the same mercy, the same refusal to see the child of an enemy as an enemy, that saved the boy who will in turn save Westeros. IMO, it's a way to uphold the belief in mercy. I tend to think it’s also Martin’s way of addressing one his questions about his beloved LOTR (what about orc babies etc).

If another person ends Dany, we still get dead Dany, but it doesn't say anything interesting? Killing her wouldn't be a sacrifice on anyone else's part, she won’t be loved and she has to go. But, Jon, who so desperately wants to have honor, if he kills her, it's right as well as an egregious "sin." Ned dishonors himself to protect Sansa (and obvy was committing treason to protect Jon), it feels like coming full circle for Jon, who so wants to be worthy of being a son to Ned to follow his path there too. Also, one thing I expect we’ll keep tracking is kinslaying. Kinslaying comes up with the AA/Nissa Nissa issue in the Stannis storyline, so I do expect that to be addressed in Jon chapters:

We have the whole baby switch to assure us, Jon values human life a great deal. All the same, that involves a moment of cruelty on Jon's side, so Martin isn't interested in keeping him perfectly pure. He likes those moments where doing the right thing is very difficult, even compromising in some way. It's why, while we say Ned committing treason for Jon is a no brainer, Martin writes Ned tortured by it. He likes the inner turmoil over decisions, placing a societal good (honor) against another obligation or ideal and asking what is right.

I wonder if Martin really plans to bring Jon this low, but also how it will be received. The optics of portraying such an ending for Dany given today's sensibilities could be viewed even more dimly than it would have been when Martin started writing the series?

Despite all the ways I think it makes sense, yes, I def think this is one of those areas that if he had finished the series as quickly as he'd hoped, would have gone over better. Dany has dragons, therefore, she will be an overwhelming threat to Westeros, so it isn't like Jon will just randomly kill a woman, yet it's distasteful all the same. Martin is looking at things from the context of his story and the ideas he’s already introduced/talking about though which is why I can wince but kinda understand it. There are other issues where my sensibilities diverge from his, so didn’t like it on the show, I don’t like it for the books, still think it’s probably gonna happen. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[catofoldstones]

“there must be another…”

brother the only another you need is a war hammer to the chest cavity

[forestcat222]

So I've seen AU concepts where Rhaegar becomes king and stays married to Elua, or gets married to Lyanna, or gets married to Cersei, or (my favorite) him marrying all of them

Now I hate Rhaegar. I despise that man, and the idea of him marrying all these women who are too good for him doesn't exactly please me buuuut.....

Think of the kids, imagine you keep all the Canon kids (Aegon, Rhaenys, Jon, Joffrey, Myrcella, tommen) that means they're all siblings.

Joffrey has three older siblings fighting with him constantly. Tommen has two sweet older brothers and two sweet big sisters who will protect him. Jon and Joffrey are both the middle children. Myrcella has an awesome big sister who she can spend time with. Aegon is the oldest brother and gets to tease all his little brothers. Joffrey teases Jon about being shorter than him.

The sibling interaction potential give me life!!!

I think I might need to write an AU for this. I love the idea of this giant absurd dysfunctional family!

[rise-my-angel]

You know how the Northerners fully understood Sansa was a hostage in Kings Landing and didn't want to be there, but she had to play along and pretend everything was fine and so does everyone else in the city? Like everyone close near her just ignores that shes a prisoner because they are forcing her to play along?

That's what I think of every time of you chuckle fucks say Lyanna willingly ran away or Lyanna went with or to Rhaegar willingly.

Y'all just pushing the "Kings Landing Sansa loves Joffery" propaganda that the series explicitly goes into detail to prove is a false narrative, but onto Lyanna.

Because she's dead and can't tell you that you're a fucking idiot for thinking she'd ever run away from her brothers.

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

Targ stans need to stay out of the Martell tags. The brain rot is real. Dorne being pro Targaryen restoration doesn't mean the Martells are Targaryen lap dogs. It means they want to avenge Elia and her children and putting Viserys/Dany on the Iron Throne gets them that. It doesn't mean Dorne was alright with Rhaegar humiliating their princess, Aerys holding her hostage, and Dornishmen dying because Rhaegar needed his third head of the dragon

Lol that argument comes up like every other month and I do not understand it 😭

“House Martell is pro Daenerys” - Should they not be? Is Daenerys guilty by association for the crimes of her r*pist daddy and pedo brother? Why wouldn’t they aim for an alliance with the girl who is being revered as a powerful Queen and their blood since the time of the 2nd Daenerys?

“House Martell is pro Aegon VI” - So they’re pro the guy who is pretending to or is Elia Martell’s son? Also their blood?

“House Martell wanted to marry Arianne to Viserys” - Once again? Is Viserys supposed to be held responsible for the crimes of Aerys and Rhaegar?

“House Martell were desperate for Targaryen approval” - So much so that they let Daenerys & Viserys live a life of untold horrors without ever extending a hand to them. So much so that despite creating a marriage alliance between Viserys & Arianne - they were happy to keep it a secret until Viserys proved himself.

“House Martell is pro Targaryen restoration! So ha they’re pro Rhaegar!”

- As opposed to what? Being pro House Baratheon/Stark/Arryn/Tully who provided no justice for the murders of Elia & her children? Or House Lannister which sanctioned said murders?

Which house should they have allied with since apparently siding with two innocent children ( Daenerys & Viserys ) means supporting their r*pist daddy and brother?

“They’re still pro House Targaryen so ha! They clearly weren’t upset with Rhaegar”

About being upset with Rhaegar - GRRM himself cleared that up on his blog.

Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. - GRRM

R&L Stans love to center their self inserts however House Martell and all it’s major plots revolve around Elia Martell, not Rhaegar or Lyanna.

As a Daenerys Targaryen fan myself, I don’t know why it needs to be said but she is not responsible for her family’s actions.

Y’all know I’m a House Martell fan first but as Daenerys fan as well I find it incredibly disingenuous to pretend House Martell did anything to help her.

I find that House Martell has been incredibly self serving in their quest for justice for Elia and that has affected their family deeply. It’s a tragedy.

However back to the question on hand I don’t know why it needs to be pointed out but House Martell had also been seeking marriage alliances from Daenerys/Viserys meaning in either circumstance - They intend to get a Martell Queen or King. They are perfectly fine using House Targaryen in their quest for power and as a vehicle for justice against the Lannisters.

Said Lannisters who btw are the only ones left alive to have hurt Elia of Dorne seeing as Aerys & Rhaegar have been dead for years and all 😛

[katshuya]

No matter what George does. No matter if he twisted it into "Elia was ok and never felt humiliated nor used, and the Martells didn't mind what Rhaegar did" or if George decided never to talk about Elia. R x L will always be disgusting and not a tragic love story.

Any sane human being can see that.

Even in a creepy scenario where she was ok with it OR one where she didn't love Rhaegar, he will always be to blame, and he still used her.

That's why the R x L stans always try to either ignore her existence or reduce it into nothing and her into some kind of supernatural alien human that is ok with everything dirty done to her.

Because they know their oh so tragic, self insert true love story will always seem disgusting because of Elia's existence in the story.

No amount of excuses or fanarts will ever change this truth. No matter which characters George will make accepting and supporting of them (Ned, Arthur, Oberyn, Doran, Ashara, Lewyn and even Elia herself....ect). Why? Because it's unrealistic.

Even if R and L's were running away from Aerys, then suddenly *accidentally* saw a prophecy or fell in love.

OR Even if George made it that Rhaegar wouldn't have left her if she had been able to give him another child. It doesn't change that he abandoned her and their children in the worst way possible with no protection against Aerys and his loyal kingsguard. And even then, it's hard to believe she'd accept just because he told her : Hey, I see in my dreams that I have to have 3 children or we all die. Like, what is this? She almost died for that, no thanks to you and your one after another impregnation.

It's disgusting and not well-written at all.

That's just the plain truth.

That's why a huge part of the fandom dislikes it. Not because they "didn't read the books" or "they lack critical thinking".

It's actually because they know how to think instead of inserting themselves as not like other girls girl and shipping themselves with terrible husband and father, charismatic depressed prince charming.

Poor Rhaegar had a sense of doom following him and knew he'd die soon so Elia let him be? That's very idiotic.

No. Elia being fine with annulment or polygamy isn't normal unless she is forced to. And you know it.

[thescriptofsharkboyandlavagirl3d]

i don’t think i’ve seen anyone address this but it is so fucking disrespectful to aegon targaryen (son of elia) to name jon snow aegon. if aegon did die then his death was a direct consequence of rhaegar’s actions that resulted in jon’s birth. if young griff isn’t actually aegon, then this poor boy had his head smashed against the wall because his father abandoned his family to fulfill some prophecy and they think it’s a good idea to name another one of his son’s aegon.

and you know for a fact that if rhaegar did win, he would have completely overlooked aegon for jon.

[jennyofoldflowers]

no because i always drag oberyn for getting too 'cocky' in his duel with the mountain, right, but everytime i think about what the lannisters did to elia and her children i literally seethe with rage. i honestly would have been worse than oberyn. imagine holding that anger within you for over a decade; imagine having to live with the knowledge that your sister, her children and your uncle are all dead and that they received no justice. imagine just having to go on with your life with this insurmountable grief and rage in a world where no one else seems to care. in truth? i'm suprised oberyn only killed the mountain and didn't try to gut tywin on sight.

[martellspear]

— power went out and I ran out of things to think this afternoon;

— this is a anti targaryen restoration post, be warned :)

One of the most surprising things in the entire ASOIAF books is simply HOW did that family manage to be around for over 300 years. I’ve never seen so many individuals being so dense – of course, we have exceptions – but ?? Perhaps that’s what you get for the inbreed, the stupidity gene remains and grows strong and turns into a parasite that eats brains.

Let’s start with the C trio; A united the Seven Kingdoms because he thought unity was the right path to defeat the Long Night, which is great, but then he did NOTHING to actually prepare for it ?? The Wall was built by the Starks. In F&B we see that, Targ after Targ, the prophecy has little impact on how they conduct things; I’d love to say something like: fine, let’s blame it on time and wars (which, they caused) but ?? your ancestors' most important words about saving the place you, and your descendants will, live just do not carry enough crucial significance for them to be carefully passed down to the next generation?

Then, we have R. I will admit that when I first read the books I liked him - and although I still find him an interesting character, I cannot let go of the idea of how obtuse he is (it’s deeper than that in his case but I’m annoyed) -. Since I’m venting, let me just say that it completely baffles me how some still view RL as a love story; that man was OBSESSED with the prophecy, he drastically changed his lifestyle for it, but he’d abandon everything for love? And then… proceed to – likely – hide from his lOvE that her loved ones are dead (his dad killed them) while keeping said person in a place that, regarding both climate and social aspects, is detrimental for her. Furthermore, to defy and insult three powerful Houses because he fell in love with someone he saw a few times?

Yes, love can make people take routes they wouldn’t normally take, but the cost was too high for it not to be “means to an end”.

Coming back to my original thoughts: I believe that Targs are unfit to rule – if you want evidence, you can literally just open F&B, any page will do – and the couple good monarchs that family produced doesn’t make up for all the damage they caused since they sat foot in Westeros. They feel entitled to a land that doesn’t belong to them and are saviors because the Gods said they are ??

It's a funny concept when you contrast it with how the series ended: Cersei on the Throne, Arya defeating the Night King and the two last Targs with awful endings (that’s martelldoo): one dead and the other exiled.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent because the thought of a Targ restoration pissed me off this afternoon – it validates every horrendous thing that happened to those considered “casualties” and puts these people in that obnoxious concept we see in succession: no real person involved. But since “we” have the power to save the world, it was worth it and everything it valid, RIGHT?–

[infinitestalia]

That GRRM quote about Elia at the Harrenhal tourney stiffening her back and trying to act strong like everything was ok. Yea, Bobby B caving Ratgar's chest in and Jon Snow taking Lyanna out when she popped him out isn't enough, I need both Ratgar and his white trash sub 70 IQ teenage mistress/incubator resurrected so the entirety of Dorne can beat their asses. The uwu support all women Stark stans deluding themselves that Lyanna wasn't complicit can ignore this ask btw! and cope!

God, I remember when I found that quote on the artist's website, me and the 7 other Elia fans on here were fighting for our lives against the absurdly popular narrative that she would have been okay with the most humiliating moment of her life. That diseased rat disgraced her in front of every damn house in Westeros, while she was likely pregnant with Aegon- Robert cracking his chest open like a Christmas walnut isn't even enough for that insult, let alone everything that followed.

The show versions of those two dickheads need to be resurrected every three business days and get their asses beat by the whole realm, Dorne ain't enough. They were the most evil mfs I have ever seen (cause the deaths of thousands, Elia & her kids slaughtered like animals and then taking Aegon's NAME for their love child, before his brains had dried off the walls??) and the show didn't even care. The only good they ever did was finally opening people's eyes to how awful their shitty "love" story was and casting a Rhaegar that wasn't even good enough to pass for a peasant in Fleabottom.

With the books, it's fuck Rhaegar to kingdom come, there's no narrative that can absolve him. Lyanna won't be reprehensible like she was in the show, but isn't it funny how the same crowd who blamed Sansa for everything at 11 and consider Robb a man grown who should have known better at 14, absolve her of any responsibility because she was 15? Robb did far, far less and is universally considered at fault, even by those who like him. She's praised as so mature for knowing Robert will cheat on her and won't tolerate his bastards, so she decides she'll help inflict even worse on another woman, where she suddenly doesn't know better? Dfkm. It's on Rhaegar but nobody's ever gonna force me to pretend I care about either of them.