#anti tamlin

[imnotoverlyobsessive]

Feyre: if you take me from my mate, I’ll destroy your court and everything you hold dear

Tamlin: takes Feyre from her mate

Feyre: destroys his court and everything he holds dear

Tamlin:

[slytherhys]

SJM writes stories about women overcoming their fears and finding other female characters and building a better world - and yet, I see an alarming amount of people being misogynistic and sexist towards the very same characters they read about.

Claiming Feyre is a bad painter when there's literally no evidence for it, calling her boring for choosing motherhood, calling her weak for having a human heart (something she is PRAISED for by everyone else), trying to blame her for everything her abuser did; Discrediting Morrigan and claiming she lied, giving Eris the benefit of the doubt therefore making Mor into the bad guy; Claiming Elain is a wh*re, a b*tch because she has a mate she doesn't care about but for some reason she has to be faithful to him, she has to reject him, ACCEPT him when all we've seen is her discomfort around him. Claiming she isn't good enough for a man because, supposedly, she can't have his babies; calling her useless because she doesn't want to use violence; Unfortunately, there are many other examples I could name.

Please note that the male characters are NEVER the object of such criticism - in fact, people will doubt the women who told showed us men are abusers and do everything in their power to believe them instead, ignoring the very canon content the author wrote herself ("there's definitely more to it!"; "feyre is an unreliable narrator!"; "why should we believe mor?")

And now, with HOFAS nearly out, I keep seeing people wanting Bryce to hate Elain? To be a bitch to Mor and Feyre? Where in the books did you ever get the impression any of these female characters would hate each other?

I genuinely never expected to see so much misoginy when I first joined a book fandom where female characters are literally the focus of everything. What saddens me the most is how much these ideas seem to be growing instead of disappearing.

You all need to grow up.

[lainalit]

The girlies who say they had a relationship with a tamlin and their new relationship is with a rhysand, I hate to break it to you, but you have not broken the cycle of abuse; you just switched to an abuser with different tactics.

[ofbreathandflame]

i often think that a lot of people facillitating the discussion about the 'necessity' of nesta's intervention always seem to fundamentally misunderstand what exactly is wrong with it

anytime someone shifts the conversation to the 'ends justify the means' ideology- a red flag goes off in my head; anytime someone makes any of these statements...red flag:

"the intervention might have been harsh but.."

"even though the inner circle could have done things better...

"the ic don't owe nesta anything..."

"nesta treated feyre badly so she deserves...."

"feyre cares about nesta and her intentions were good..."

"nesta did xyz to feyre, so its only right..."

because...these statements (and those adjacent to them), always seem to misrepresent what the problem is. its one thing for the inner circle to cut nesta off, for mor and rhys to hate rhys, for feyre to want to get revenge; its an entirely different scenario for the inner circle to put themselves personally in charge of nesta's wellbeing. like....they staged an intervention, they locked her in a house and did not allow to leave without an escort, the tore down her home, they locked in a home with a man she verbally and consistently reiterated she wanted nothing with.

one thing people consistently refuse to acknowledge is the fact that there is quite literally a tangible power imbalance between feyre and her sisters. feyre is literally the governing body of the entirety of the night court; her sisters....are her sisters. silver flames confirmed (and proved to me) that feyre does have tangible, official power over sisters. if feyre says, "you have to be locked in this house with this man," her sisters have no choice but to comply. if feyre says "you're banished," then elain would just be banished. nesta would be banished. and this why i've always said that feyre's function as an eternal victim is undermined by her position in the story.

and this is the kind of power imbalance i have often cited between feyre and rhys and feyre/tamlin. its the natural deference that forms between a subordinate and their superior. its not inherently negative (see: mentor/mentee; teacher/student; manager/employee) but it does mean that people in power have to be cognizant because it is often easy to fall into abusive/imbalanced roles. feyre cannot be nesta's sister and high lady through the intervention; she's either a concerned sister, or the high lady. ordering nesta as her high lady and as her sister mean two different things. feyre establishes herself as high lady in that meeting; she establishes to nesta that the intention of the invention was political in nature.

feyre isn't deferring to an professional who can properly help nesta; she (and the ic) are quite literally assuming the role of the professional. even if we did argue for the necessity of an intervention, that entails consulting and deferring to what they (the professional) outline is the best measure. its still facillitated...through the professional. and by doing that they are inherently consenting to the fact that that person is (1) a subordinate (2) their responsibility. we can't argue for the necessity of a extreme measure - and then in the same breath deny the resposiblities that entails. we can't justify the intervention by saying its the equivalent of a mental health facility and then say the people responsible somehow don't have a responsibility to the person who is essentially forced into being a patient by their standards. and then also claim they owe that person nothing.

and even then - then we have to think about the validity of the house of wind's equivalecy to a mental health facility. because (1) it's nesta that empowers the home, not feyre. its only welcoming because nesta...made it welcoming. its only caring because nesta made it caring. (2) feyre still makes nesta go on missions in her stead. nesta is sexually assaulted twice on said missions. she literally pimps nesta out to eris during her imprisionment. nesta is not getting paid, and she's only allowed to leave the house of wind during these moments. so even that comparison doesn't justify what feyre makes nesta do. she can't be in the equivalent of psychiatric facility and then be coerced into situations she has verbally expressed she does not want to do and that terrify her. we also have to think about the fact that feyre was absolutely down and allowed her sister to be locked up with another male who everyone knew was her mate; who nesta verbally rejected multiple times.

feyre is making the sister that she deemed was so mentally ill that she could not support herself then complete the tasks of a high lady? like how are justifying that? you can't say "this person has a debilitating addiction, therefore, she needs to be locked into a home, escorted, and policed" and then argue that this is the same person who should complete tasks that should be the high lady's job.

like what made tamlin abusive?

it wasn't being a concerned lover. it was that he assumes (and takes advantage of) the position of a high lord over feyre. we know whar tamlin's "intentions" were; he wanted to protect feyre. but how does he protect feyre....by presiding over her as her high lord not consulting her as her lover. a high lord can lock her in the house, restrict her access to his state, refuse to pay her. and again - the concerned lover and the abuser can absolutely co-exist. the 'good intentioned' sister or lover can still be an abuser.

we can acknowledge feyre's position as high lady, but that also comes with the responsibility of managing how you represent your power. the intervention is abusive. and illegal. and impractical. like even if you argue that "nesta heal" that doesn't change the fact that (1) nesta is fictional - of course she "benefits." writing that a character 'heals' from abuse doesn't negate that it is abuse. (2) if feyre had 'healed' under tamlin...he would have still been abusive.

its just very tiring when these conversation focus on the characters and not the frameworks behind them. nesta could have been the nastiest person to ever walk the earth and the intervention and the the behaviors thereafter are still indicative of abuse. and if the ic did not like nesta or could not tolerate for her she treated then they should have not have the power to enact extreme measures like an intervention and lock up.

[rockyhorrorgal]

Absolutely LOVE the difference between Rhysand and Tamlin when Feyre comes back to them in ACOMAF and ACOWAR. After the first week with Rhys is up and Feyre is back, she runs to Tamlin, they have a wee cuddle and then he speaks to her with such rage at Rhysand for stealing what is his (because Tamlin is a piece of shit and sees Feyre as a possession) and the second she tries to feel physically close to him after being separated, he's demanding information about the night court.

Jump to Rhysand in ACOWAR, once Feyre is back in Velaris and he returns, they are holding each other, sobbing from being apart and the second she even questions if he wants info about the spring court he is reassuring that other things aka HER matter infinitely more. Even when they get to the bedroom, he has no rush to have sex with her but just to hold her and run her a bath because he actually cares about her. There are so many ways in which Rhysand is better than Tamlin, but this is a big one for me.

[motherfeyre-archeron]

Lucien taking out he's anger on Feyre just because Rhys went to the SC ,made me wanna punch him.

He had no right to lecture feyre on how Rhys has to say or not say to the bastard that got the most important people to him murdered.

Rhys was very generous to that ugly rat . I would've misted him right then and there. Consequences be damned.

Oh and the pro- tam*in bashing rhys 🙄. He gave him food be great full.

This scene alone should give you insight on how truly selfless and kind Rhysand is.

Rhys doesn't owe him anything. So he's depressed and sad, he brought this onto himself.

I love lucien, i really do but , he pissed me off in this scene 😒. He's a grown ass man why should feysand baby him cause " he's a broken man🥺" Shut up foxy.

[kayla-2]

We rightfully laugh at the high lord meeting because it was hilarious but Tamlin slut-shaming and outing Feyre because of his own abusive actions will never not make me feel sick. That’s why I’m happy that he is facing the physical consequences of his actions. Feyre might not talk down on him like I want and I wish she would drag him through that table for every time he physically abused her but he has absolutely nothing and she has a beautiful family and court.. and that’s fine with me

[lettheskyfallletitcrumble]

FYI Rhysand doesn't owe Tamlin shit for bringing him back to life, Rhysand literally died for Tamlin and all of Prythian just as Feyre did in the first book. They're even.

Also Rysand doesn't deserve to die for "stealing" someone's bride when said bride willingly left.

[stargirlfeyre]

What I am about to say most definitely will piss people off but I don’t care.

I don’t care about Tamlin’s depression or mental state. I don’t care that he’s suicidal, I don’t care that he’s alone, I don’t care that his mental health is at an all time low, I don’t care about his trauma, I don’t care about everyone abandoning him.

Domestic abusers do not deserve sympathy, healing, or forgiveness and seeing as Sjm hates Tamlin as much as we do, he’s not going to get any of these things.

I’m tired of people saying he deserves a healing/redemption arc because he’s “depressed”. He deserves shit. His current state is a result of his own actions. I’m tired of people bringing up his depression to us as if that’s supposed to be an “end all” in arguments. Hate to be the one to break this to you but most abusers do have problems with their mental health and trauma. That doesn’t mean they deserve empathy in any sort of way and that’s why in the real world they don’t get it.

[bookishfeylin]

Y’all for the last time. Tamlin and Rhysand have the exact same red flags and almost the exact same abusive behavior.

They are both significantly older men preying on a much younger woman.

They are both violently possessive and protective of her.

They both keep life changing/life endangering secrets from her if they think it’s best.

They both leave her in dangerous situations to prove herself.

They are the same. You cannot point this out for one of them and then get surprised when it’s done right back to the other. You cannot talk about the abuse and domestic violence one of them displays and then turn around and get upset when discussions of domestic violence and abuse are used to critique the other. Be consistent. Either this is a fantasy series or it’s not. Either we’re using real world standards to judge the relationships these characters have with Feyre or we’re not. You cannot pick and choose when to care about Feyre’s abuse, actually.

[decadentpostnachos-evil-twin]

REDEMPTION ARCS AND SJM

I'm still under the impression that Tamlin doesn't need a redemption arc. Because he did nothing that was so gravely wrong that it would justify one. Anyway, if you are under the impression that he did need one after what he did in maf, then be aware that he HAD IT already.

This right here is the definition of a redemption arc. And would you look at that, Tamlin's actions in acowar outweigh that little wrong he did in maf by FAR.

He locked Feyre in the house because he was worried for her safety and wasn't able to properly communicate his feelings to her due to the obvious trauma the whole Amarantha affair left him with. I can't really remember, but maybe he said a few bad words at the HLM, which compared to the Ic's behaviour is just ridiculous.

This is contrasted by him scheming against Hybern and providing insider information for Prythian, playing a not insignificant role in saving Elain and Feyre from Hybern's camp and lastly resurrecting Rhysand while not expecting anything in return.

Do tell, what did he do that wasn't redeemable? I'm waiting. And because I feel petty today, I will tag this so the Tamlin antis can see it too, because I'd honestly like to have a discussion about it.

[thecatsaesthetics]

But Rhys took Feyre's choice away in ACOSF and is as bad as Tamlin

Disclaimer - I am going to state up front SJM shouldn't have told this story through Nesta's POV. It is an incredibly complex storyline in it's own right and deserved to be told through Feyre's POV.

However, fans tend to make several claims about the story that I want to either debunk or combat. You can still hate the storyline (I hate how it was told as well) but twisting canon to suit your own narrative isn’t right.

(I am using this timeline for the series, which is the most in-depth timeline I have ever found.)

Let's begin

What actually happened in canon:

Rhys and Feyre were actively attempting to have a baby since the end of ACOFAS (December 21st). Feyre announces her pregnancy to the group 16 days into the start of ACOSF. She says she is "two months along". ACOSF is canonically 10 months after ACOFAS. Meaning Feyre and Rhys conceive Nyx in August.

31 days into ACOSF Rhys and Feyre find out via Madja Nyx has wings. Feyre would be heading into her second trimester. Rhys knows the baby wings pose a problem (as does Madja). Madja informed Feyre the birth would be "more difficult" but does not state the baby will kill her. Rhys sets out on finding a way to save Feyre and the baby.

33 days into ACOSF Rhys goes to Drakon and Miryam to ask about the wings. They give him nothing but sad looks.

40 days into ACOSF Helion visits and is asked by Rhys about the wings and says he will look into it.

43 days into ACOSF Nesta, in a fit of rage, tells Feyre her baby is going to die and kill her.

So canonically Feyre does not know for 12 days. So, around two weeks, Feyre is unaware the chances she will die in labor are incredibly heightened.

That is really important, it is not months they are keeping this from Feyre. It also doesn't seem likely Rhys or any of the IC would have let Feyre give birth without knowing what was happening. It also seems likely Rhys was pending more information from Helion who had 3 days to look into things before Nesta had her outburst.

While again it's not explicitly said I believe SJMs implication is that Rhys was exhausting all efforts prior to telling Feyre. Which is something Feyre would have done herself, since we know she wanted Nyx, and rather then let Feyre's pregnancy be ruined by fear (especially if an answer was out there) Rhys decides to take the burden on himself.

Is it necessarily right? I don't think so, but is it done to specifically control Feyre? (Like Tamlin's actions were) No. It's done because Rhys cannot bring himself to take Feyre's happiness away from her. Feyre is described as being so happy in ACOSF, she finally has everything she's ever wanted. She has her mate, her family, her home, security, and is awaiting the arrival of her baby. Feyre has her gotten her "happy ending" and who would want to take that from someone? This is something Rhys was struggling with in ACOFAS, the idea that he does not deserve to be happy with Feyre.

I hate that we get it told through Nesta and Cassian's POV, because honestly this would have been a good Feysand plotline and would have dealt with the remaining issues that were hinted at in ACOFAS.

Commonly incorrect statements by the fandom

"Rhysand forced Feyre to stay pregnant because he valued the baby's life over hers" -

This is canonically not true. Feyre is the one who wanted to get pregnant. Ignoring this is missing the point entirely, Feyre wanted to start her family.

Second, while Rhys clearly loves Nyx it seems his concern was for her and not for Nyx:

Cassian squeezed Rhys’s shoulder. “Why won’t you tell her?” Rhys’s throat worked. “Because I can’t bring myself to give her that fear. To take away one bit of the joy in her eyes every time she puts a hand on her belly.” His voice shook. “It is fucking eating me alive, this terror. I keep myself busy, but … there is no one to bargain with for her life, no amount of wealth to buy it, nothing that I can do to save her.”

His concern is for Feyre and the fact that she is going to die while in labor. He doesn't even mention Nyx dying, and it's said Nyx will die in the labor as well.

"Rhys prevented Feyre from getting an abortion" -

So first we need to ask ourself, are abortions a thing in Pyrthian? We don't get any mentions of them and fae children are rare. I would suspect in Pyrthian they aren't a thing, but maybe in the human lands.

Second, by the time Rhys and Feyre find out about the wings it's been 31 days into ACOSF and when the baby was announced she was two months pregnant, which is frustrating because we don't know if she means two months on the dot or two months and a few days. It's then 15 more days till the wings are discovered she is anywhere between 11/12 weeks pregnant.

It's important to remember pregnancies are not defined by months, they are defined by weeks. If you are 11/12 weeks pregnant the abortion you get is more complicated then at 8 or 9 weeks. So it seems even if she could have an abortion (if that's a thing in Prythian) that she would have had to pass the fetal tissue.

Remember the problem isn't that the baby is sick or causing Feyre to be sick. Feyre is described as being healthy and radiant all throughout ACOSF. The pregnancy isn't the issue, it's the birth. The wings will supposably get caught and not be able to pass through the birthing canal. So even if she had an abortion those wings are getting caught and preventing the tissue from passing. We later see the size of the wings don't matter, because Feyre gives birth preterm and it still kills her.

And it will be challenging enough during a birth when the baby is alive but if they preform an abortion you're talking dead tissue being stuck in Feyre as they attempt to pull it out of her piece by piece.

That could kill her as well.

So when Rhys says "nothing I can do to save her life" he means it. As long as Feyre gives birth/passes those wings in her fae body she's dead.

The only in universe solution is for Feyre to transform back into an Illyrian form (I'll get into that later). That's it, nothing else could save her and in fact what happens is Nesta bargains for Feyre's life and then permanently changes her body to be Illyrian. So the solution was to shapeshift.

"Nesta told Feyre because she thought it was wrong"

That's not true, in fact Nesta agreed to say nothing and was later sorry for even telling Feyre. So no she did not tell Feyre because she thought it was an injustice.

Nesta was bitter and hurt by other things that happened (I am not going into it) and decided to hurt her sister back. She told her in the most brutal and awful way possible.

She easily could have caused Feyre to go into preterm labor and didn't care if that happened. If Feyre had gone into preterm labor with no solution to get the baby out then she would have died.

"Feyre's choice was taken from her"

So if we rule out abortion, and go with shapeshifting I don't see how anyone concludes that the 12 days Feyre does not know takes that choice from her. Even for the 12 days with the abortion idea, she still could have done it. She makes a choice not to, Feyre does not go into labor unaware of the risks.

Going back to shapeshifting, Rhys says this:

“So let her change back into an Illyrian to bear the babe.” Rhys’s face was stark. “Madja has put a ban on any more shape-shifting. She says that to alter Feyre’s body in any way right now could put the baby at risk. On the chance that it could be bad for the baby, Feyre is forbidden to so much as change the color of her hair until after the birth.”

So originally it's Madja who says shape-shifting is banned but sorry I do not see how Madja is going to control Feyre. During the announcement scene we get this from Feyre:

Nesta angled her head at her sister. “So you can’t do magic while pregnant?” Feyre winced. “I can, but given my unusual set of gifts, I’m not sure how it might impact the baby. Winnowing is fine, but some other powers, when we’re still so early in the pregnancy, could strain my body dangerously.”

Feyre is given the medical opinion of Madja on her doing magic and chooses to follow it.

And the nail in the coffin that it wasn't Feyre's choice is the birth scene itself:

“There is nothing we can do,” Madja said. “Cutting the babe out of her will kill her.” “Cutting it out?” Nesta demanded, earning a sharp glare from Rhys. Madja ignored her tone. “An incision along her abdomen, even one carefully made, is an enormous risk. It’s never been successful. And even with Feyre’s healing abilities, the blood loss has weakened her—” “Do it,” Feyre managed to say, the words weighted with pain. “Feyre,” Rhys objected. “The babe likely won’t survive,” Madja said, voice gentle but no-nonsense. “It’s too small yet. We risk both of you.” “All of you,” Cassian breathed, eyes on Rhys. “Do it,” Feyre said, and her voice was that of the High Lady. No fear. Only determination for the life of the babe within her. Feyre looked up at Rhys. “We have to.”

While it isn't explicitly mentioned, the scene prior is discussions about saving Nyx not about saving Feyre. Madja says "we risk both of you" implying their is a way to just save Feyre. That way would be shapeshifting, something Feyre is refusing to do in this moment. Rhys is the one who is objecting to the c-section and Feyre insists that "We have to". Feyre chooses to have the c-section and attempt to save her son.

Conclusion:

I don't think we can conclude Feyre's choice was taken from her, in fact it seems she made a choice not to shapeshift and save herself. That might feel like pro life propaganda and maybe it is (I don't know SJMs stance on this) but a mother choosing to go through with a risky pregnancy and delivery is still her making that choice. Just because it's not the choice you would make or like, doesn't make it any less of a choice.

It's really odd how people twist this storyline to fit a narrative of "Rhys is just as bad as Tamlin" and while I can understand the similarities, (both being born out of fear and trauma) it just isn't the same. Tamlin watched as Feyre became sicker and sicker, and ignored her. Tamlin forced Feyre back to the Spring Court after she told him she didn't want to be taken from Rhys and the IC. Tamlin slut shamed her during the HL meeting. Tamlin was actively attempting to control Feyre's behavior and get her to fit what he wanted for her.

Rhys found out horrible information (on top of all the other shit that was going on in ACOSF) about the life of his mate and child. His mate who was currently overjoyed at the idea of being pregnant and having a baby. And he wanted to find a way to save her before giving her the fear, anxiety, and distress he was suffering. It wasn't about controlling her, and it wasn't about having some super baby. It wasn't the right thing to do but he didn't do it out wanting to control Feyre. That's important information and something that shouldn't be twisted.

You can dislike it (as I've stated I hate it being told in Nessian POV) but you shouldn't twist things to fit your narrative.

[fourteentrout]

acotar hot take

there seems to be this really intense polarization with anti-tamlin readers and pro-tamlin readers where most (but not all) antis will be like haha tampons the worst and deserved everything he got, fuck that guy, what a creep, and most pros (but not all) are like he did nothing wrong!!! there are so many double standards!!! look at all the hypocrisy!!!

and like i feel like not only is it more nuanced than that, but the narrative is more interesting because of that nuance. "Tamlin ONLY did wrong things" is untrue, but "Tamlin didn't do anything wrong!" is also untrue. He did a lot of things wrong, he put his mate in danger, he didn't foster any kind of proper communication with her, he was controlling and paranoid and just because he was traumatized doesn't mean his actions were justified. But he also did a lot of things that weren't necessarily bad that were later construed as bad following his shift in character, sometimes even by the characters in the books themselves, which...doesnt really make sense to me. Just because someone starts doing bad things, it doesn't negate the good things they've done in the past, or change their reasoning for their actions at the time. But just because someone may be misunderstood or taken at face value doesn't mean they were actually innocent the whole time, too.

To deny the parts of his character that are written to invoke sympathy in the reader is sort of closeminded, but to deny that he was abusive is an equally blind narrative to follow. That said, sympathizing with him doesn't make you an abuser by proxy. You know, its okay to feel more than just "this guy good" or "this guy bad" about a dimensional, multifaceted character. Like, thats kind of the whole point of morally gray characters.

Ive said it before, but Rhys always being toted as the exemplary morally gray character feels so weird when tamlin is an equally good example of a morally gray character, if not more, but is often completely shunted to the side as this irredeemable, heartless asshole.

i hope this doesnt hurt anyones feelings, but am i making any sense?

[ofbreathandflame]

guys…i need you all to walk with me for a second…

i need rhys stans to understand there is no ‘context’ to sexual assault. sexual assault remains sexual assault — regardless of the intention. and this is why i literally said people should really know when to separate fiction from reality. there is no adequate analysis that should include “context matters” in regards to justifying sexual assault.

there is no context in which absolves rhysand of his status as a sexual perpetrator. rhysand is not removed from that label; it does not stop existing bc rhysand apologizes or had ‘good intention.’ nor does the label stop existing bc it’s fantasy. it’s still sexual assault.

a rapist remains a rapist even after the deed is done. you don’t ‘apologize’ or ‘explain’ yourself out of such label. i need us to continue with this same rhetoric.

any analysis that refuses to call a spade a spade is not an analysis. nor is it valid.

complex characters can just be…complex. again - you DO NOT have to agree with everything a character does to like them as a character. to ‘defend’ a character by undermining the severity and the damage caused is nothing less than abuse apologism. and a bit disgusting. arguing that tamlin is abusive does NOT mean that you undermine the SAME qualities in rhys. to argue that rhys is not abusive bc tam is a dogshit argument and is literally disgusting. arguing that what rhys did is NOT sa or abuse bc ‘context’ is an insane hill to die on. i really need people to really break out those critical thinking skills. if you are going to defend rhys’s EVERY abuse…you are just as bad as the tamlin stans who you claim do the same. what’s not clicking here!??! you can’t say stanning tamlin is wrong and thennnnnnn turn around and defend rhys utm…that’s not how that works…

[elrielmoments]

Imagine being anti Inner Cirle, anti Rhysand, anti Feysand anti Nessian and pro Tamlin.

That shit’s embarrassing.

[highladyofterrasen7]

If your reason for hating feysand is something like

“They were mean to nesta”

“They were mean to tam/in”

I’m 100% not gonna take you seriously