#ask to tag c!tommy crit

[blissfali]

Tinyish rant i think my biggest problem with tweeter inniters is like All ive seen about the cwilbur finale is 1. complaining that cwilbur left and 2. “aU wHere CDreAM kIdnAps ToMmy oN tHe IslAnd WhEn wIlBuR LEavEs” and while the idea in and of itself is obviously not awful like yeah thats an interesting idea

but it ABSOLUTELY becomes shitty when its the ONLY thing that they seem to be focusing on out of that entire stream or even the entire arc in general tbh.why are we shifting the spotlight onto cprime when this has virtually nothing to do with cdream. why cant cwilbur do something for himself that isnt even inherently awful and yet still get to be blamed for something that happened subsequently

idk what im saying im just annoyed that the only takeaway they seemed to extract from it is “oh haha whatif cdream shows up because cwilbur left ctommy and that makes him a bitch” “what if ctommy sat and cried for hours and never moved lol” “what if he just collapses and dies” or some BS There is little to no analysis of ANYTHING on twitter except AU on AU on AU to cover up what they think was a shitshow of a ccrime ending, and whether it be true or not, the least you could do Is Not Dogpile On Cwilbur As A Scapegoat For Your Cprime Angst

[ruby-whistler]

Small thing- i did my research and as it turns out c!tommy has never stolen dream's chestplate, the only time he took anything remotely like that from dream was when dream died of fall damage once and tommy briefly picked it up and returned it -curious anon (unless u have a vod or something but idk)

hey! this ask has been sitting at the back of my inbox for a while now - and that is because i actually went back and made an analysis of the original disc conflict which is what i was actually talking about.

this is gonna be very in-detail because that's how i do stuff. word-by-word, frame-by-frame.

this is not quite roleplay yet, but the "war" is in minecraft and it's all completely lighthearted, so, i'm saying this just as a disclaimer.

i started analysing tommy's video "So I Started a Minecraft War VS Dream…", not the stream. if anyone knows that the stream has additional, important information, i'll watch it as well.

so, let's start off.

sapnap had a fight with ponk and alyssa - tommy joined in to help sapnap kill them. "however dream doesn't like when people fight on his server" - he already has the reputation of being a mediator. this is very interesting to note for later.

dream logs on after which ponk and alyssa, who have just been killed, start asking him for help.

dream shows up in iron armor, sapnap and tommy fully decked out.

dream is not an idiot. there are two people with stronger gear coming at him, yelling in a stream he has open "LET'S KILL DREAM" at the top of their lungs, having just killed two server members.

the two are charging at him, so he shoots to knock them back. after this he runs while tommy and sapnap proceed to assault him.

they're killing someone who can't protect themselves for fun. dream is the underdog in this situation - funnily enough, this event gets often cited as dream being tyrannical despite the fact.

dream runs himself into a corner besides the fence. sapnap kills him and tommy is mad that he didn't get the kill.

all of dream's stuff is laying on the ground and they pick it up.

[ Sapnap: NOONE CAN TAKE US ]

we can see gold, iron, gapples, food, spare items and materials, which they pick up - and most importantly, dream's crossbow. since his armor and weapons are decent and best, his crossbow is probably his most important item, and tommy gloats about having it.

[ Dream: give me my stuff back ]

tommy responds to this by saying "watch, no, watch this", insulting dream, and then killing him with his own crossbow.

dream has a track record on the smp, that he keeps throughout the l'manberg war as well, of giving people their stuff back if he kills them - this would usually happen to stop them from assaulting someone else. his one rule he enforces is "don't be a jerk", so don't steal things or ruin things people have worked for. this is seemingly why he "doesn't like" conflict.

he doesn't genuinely want anyone to lose the stuff that they've earned, and he expects this same attitude towards himself.

this is why he comes towards tommy with no armor, seemingly completely trusting he would be given back his stuff. this doesn't happen, as tommy wants a dream kill under his belt. tommy chases dream down as he tries to get away. alyssa, seemingly without any items - it's reasonable to assume they were also taken by tommy and sapnap, or maybe she doesn't have anything for some other reason - gets killed again when she runs by tommy and dream. thanks to this fact, dream gets away, and sapnap and tommy start trying to devise a plan to kill dream again.

dream gets punz and ponk to help him, of which punz is the only person with full armor - all three are wearing armor. by this time, tubbo has joined, who has inferior armor to even dream, but the three have much better gear overall. it's unsurprising then, that during this encounter, sapnap and tommy manage to kill all three - sapnap kills ponk and dream while tommy gets punz.

[ Tubbo_: punz wth? ]

during this encounter, tubbo doesn't engage, but watches from the top of the fence.

[ Sapnap: STOP THIS MADNESS ]

tommy then goes to chase dream down in order to finally get the kill he had wanted. dream combat logs, and tommy boasts about how many diamonds he managed to gain by stealing from the people he killed during the fight.

tubbo comments that he doesn't think anyone's won, because things on the server were destroyed during the battle. tommy kicked him from the call, telling sapnap that he's not on their side.

dream relogs and gets immediately killed by tommy.

[ Sapnap: STOP THIS MADNESS ]

[ Sapnap: WE ALL NEED TO TALK ]

[ Sapnap: you just lost a 3v2 ]

[ Tubbo_: why don't you guys just- (cut off) ]

[ Sapnap: 4v2 actually ]

[ Dream: I had nothing ]

[ Sapnap: we can talk ]

tommy suggests to vc, saying "all war stops now". he tells ponk that they've already won, to which sapnap alerts him to dream's messages that he sent in chat.

[ Dream: I have the music discs ]

[ Dream: and I'm going to burn them ]

[ Dream: unless my stuff is returned ]

here we can see that dream literally only wanted his stuff back - when negotiations failed and he was killed three times over, he decided to retaliate and get his items - which he had, much like tommy with the discs, worked hard for - using another method.

this was not him targeting people's attachments or targeting sentimental value. he knew tommy had worked for hours to get them, which is why he used them as leverage.

tommy is understandably distraught after this.

[ Punz: rekt ]

[ Punz: don't touch dream ]

tubbo and sapnap watch dream walk past them, looking into tommy's chests. they don't do anything besides telling tommy.

dream proceeds to kill tommy as retaliation, probably thinking tommy would have his stuff on him.

sapnap kills ponk and doesn't get the discs back from dream.

[ TommyInnit: Dream ]

[ TommyInnit: Where are the discs ]

tommy then tries to blame sapnap for this happening, despite the fact that he was the one to chase after dream and refuse to return his items. sapnap says that they attacked them, which is also not true.

sapnap and tommy scheme to try kill dream, to which dream kills tommy again to set them back and stop them from doing so.

dream manages to kill sapnap with his bow. he then boasts about winning a 1v2 in chat, seemingly replying to sapnap mocking him earlier for losing a 4v2.

dream joins the call after which tommy begins yelling at him about him killing him and stealing his stuff.

"i was walking down a path when two fully decked out people 2v1'd me and killed me. and then i came back, and i killed both of you, i took all of your stuff."

dream here explains that he was just walking down the path, confirming he wasn't planning to attack them, but they jumped him pretty much out of nowhere and essentially mugged him of the few items he had. he doesn't feel bad for retaliating for this unfair treatment.

he then proceeds to say he was not an idiot; he heard them shouting that they were going to kill him because he had had the stream open.

tommy denies all these accusations, dismissing dream's rightful anger. he refuses to apologize.

dream says that he will return his stuff, but burn his discs as punishment for killing people and not apologizing. he speaks on behalf of not only himself, but also punz and alyssa.

tommy tries to negotiate via tricking dream, but dream says he'll keep the discs specifically so that tommy wouldn't kill him again. sapnap apologizes, saying it was an accident (it really wasn't but dream takes it), tommy simply saying he's on his side now instead of a proper apology. dream steps away from saying he will burn them, returning tommy's gear, specifically his chestplate and his sword.

alyssa comes to ask for items and gets killed by dream, then sapnap. dream asks if anyone has his steak. alyssa complains in chat about having all of her items stolen from her and being killed repeatedly. i really feel bad for her in this because she gets the worst treatment from everyone.

dream says he'll keep the discs safe, but that he doesn't trust tommy.

he leaves the call and leaves the room, seemingly not wanting to engage with the conflict anymore. sapnap gets mellohi from dream and gives it to tommy, who goes to hide it, while he keeps him off.

as the disc war goes, the two are stubborn and continue to battle for the discs. this is however what started it, and it did happen because of tommy's (and to a degree sapnap's) actions. he held the discs as leverage because tommy refused to return the few items he had.

[dreamsclock]

The point you're making isn't that c!Tommy isn't relevant to the plot anymore, just that he and his story aren't a main focus of this part in it while other characters/plot points such as c!Dream and the conditions of Pandora are, and that should be recognized just as much as it has been with other arcs because they offer just as much - why is that such a hard concept for people to understand? 😭

LITERALLY like obviously c!tommy will always be a huge part of the dream smp story in general. in a lot of ways, the story revolves around him, for the whole year — the disks and exile and everything, that was all heavily c!tommy centric.

but including him so heavily in current discussions feels like including him in the egg arc 😭😭 the egg hurt c!tommy and the people he cared about (obv not as much as c!dream) and he is technically involved in the egg lore !! but bringing him up to be like “yeah 🤨 but the egg tried to kill c!tommy so it deserves to be destroyed 🤨” obviously feels weird because that is not a storyline that currently features c!tommy heavily.

the disk wars are over. this is the prison arc. this is c!dream’s story, c!sam’s story, c!q’s and c!techno’s stories. c!tommy is still of vital importance to the plot overall, but currently, at this moment in time, c!tommy is a minor character in the prison arc.

[dyketubbo]

(all /rp obviously)

the misfortune of following v few dsmp people and relying on blog hopping to rb shit is catching up to me. i look at a blog that looks cool, scroll down, see "i want benchtrio to be the ones to release techno from his unjust prisonment", i click off the blog. ranboo sure, because he's apart of the syndicate. but including tommy and tubbo in the group to free techno?? hell no!! that would set back whatever progress they've had by so much!! hell, they're already in positions where they're unsafe and tommy regretting his choices with technoblade is a *setback*

not to mention! tubbo?? huh?? he doesn't have any reason to do that! hell, he's the one hurt the *most* by technoblade's actions, tubbo shouldn't be expected to be the one to reach out to technoblade! at most show remorse for the butcher army, sure, but literally every other conflict between tubbo and technoblade has been *completely on techno*. tubbo's already *been* amicable to technoblade, he doesn't have anything to make up for.

techno is the one that needs to apologize first in both bedrock bros and fireworksduo, because ultimately he's the one who fucking destroyed their goddamn country *twice*, belittled them (saying tommy isn't worthy anymore, agreeing with dream during the public verbal degrading of tubbo, saying him killing tubbo is fine because "well he respawned, didn't he?", beating tommy up in the pit, etc etc), and it's clear that how he's treated tubbo has had lasting effects (TUBBO HAS FUCKING *NUKES* BECAUSE HE BELIEVES ITS THE ONLY WAY TO DEFEND HIMSELF FROM PEOPLE LIKE DREAM AND TECHNOBLADE)

no "tommy and tubbo need to make up for what they've done to technoblade", no "they're equally at fault", no "they should be the ones to save technoblade". no. not only would it also free dream (i don't have to explain why. if you need an explanation, watch exile, the community house confrontation, the final disc war confrontation. three big ass events that shine the brightest lights in the fucking universe that tell you "dream is a danger to tommy and tubbo and if they are within his range he WILL hurt and traumatize them even further and possibly even take tubbo's last life and refuse to revive him so he can control tommy"), but it also puts pressure on tommy and tubbo to forgive technoblade when they have shown remorse and he *hasn't*. technoblade considers himself to have been in the right for every major interaction he's had with clingyduo. neither tommy nor tubbo will ask for remorse from him, because they're traumatized and have been manipulated into mistrusting their own judgements, and technoblade will not offer it.

if tommy and tubbo are included in the plan to free technoblade, they will not benefit. they'll only be traumatized further and it'll have fatal consequences, especially for tubbo. until technoblade shows some self-reflection and remorse for how he's harmed them (and i don't fucking mean saying "sorry tubbo, i'll make it as painless and colorful as possible", that's not proper remorse. that's literally the last words tubbo heard before losing a life), i don't want to see clingyduo near him, especially not for them to be the ones painted as in the wrong. tubbo has nukes for a defense mechanism because of how technoblade has effected him. tommy actively considered himself to be worst than his abuser when he realized the effect technoblade had on him

so no. i don't want them to break him out of prison, and i don't want them to just push their differences aside and say it's all okay, not when technoblade hasn't shown remorse, not when technoblade has undeniably traumatized them, not when the one time post-pogtopia that techno has shown any positivity towards either of them was praising tubbo for "learning his lesson" (of which was taught through violence and abuse of power, even if not political). either techno shows remorse and apologizes first or techno stays way fucking away from both of them (and yknow, considering how techno sees himself as in the right and not needing to reach out in any way to learn the full story or show remorse, im sure that wouldn't be a problem for him)

[considermygenderminecrafted]

Hello, i have a few takes:

Firstly, Phil's advice wasn't coming from a place of trying to emotionally reach out or sooth Tommy, we've seen what that looks like. This wasn't that - should it have been? I dunno I've not finished my degrees yet /lh, but it was coming from trying to give advice about beliefs and ideas because that's what Tommy asked about

Secondly! I don't think it's that Phil doesn't understand that items can be important or hold extreme significance and meaning. We know this isn't the case because a) he's talked to Tommy about the disks last stream and articulated that he knew they symbolized and meant a lot to Tommy b) we've seen him protect the symbols techno holds to be important, c) he has stuff that mean a fucking lot to him (have you Seen his ender-chest). It's that he he gets it and he still believes that you should never value those things above a life. Phil doesn't understand the extent of Tommy's abuse, but he does get why Tommy values things and items AND believes Tommy that he does, he just also thinks that those shouldn't be above people and above material reality. Its not that he doesn't get why they matter so much, its that he thinks they shouldn't matter at the expense of people. Including the self. When Tommy asks what he should do, Phil says take down the walls not because he doesn't get that they made tommy feels safer (he went with it because it's important for tommy to feel safe) its because they made Tommy feel safer but also didn't protect him. They symbolized safety but they weren't actually safe. Dream got in. People about meaning assigned to things in action. Phil was in the mode of talking about like- beliefs and ideas and not emotions, that's imo why he said that.

Third! Phil isn't low empathy he is just bad at emotions and expressing himself and wasn't in emotions mode. There is nothing wrong with low empathy at ALL, it's just my take Phil is high empathy and not good at knowing what to do with that.

Fourth the bit where he yelled was bad :c. I get he was upset but he didn't have to yell. Don't yell at people especially if you know their in a vulnerable place right now. The demonstration bit was also like UH OH, even if phil had no way of knowing what Tommy had gone throuhg

Fifth TOMMY AGREED WITH HIM. Tommy agreed with him. He said he didn't want to care about items as much as he did, when he walked through l'Manburg he talked about missing people. The advice helped and Tommy agreed, the book was useful to him, he went back to Phil when he was scared, he had originally asked phil to elaborate on his ideas. Tommy agreed. Even if you think it was bad advice or wrong, Tommy at least found it useful. He went to Phil to understand his POV, he came away getting what Phil meant more.

Sixth please tag your crit

[cmyknoise]

c!phil critical, fyi 💛

(everyone i talk about is referring to their characters. would never post cc! crit, cause i love them dearly. also this is a long post and will be tagged as such. if something isn’t tagged please tell me and i’ll tag it. also i want to mention before anyone claims as such, i’ve watched each bit of phil’s povs and streams, and i do enjoy his character. it’s well written and he roleplays well and i do like his character, i just also think his character is an utterly horrible person and is a very very bad father. 

also again this is just the characters, and i just simply think his character is an asshole. if you enjoy his character that’s fine, all the power to you! im sure plenty could make essay level things about tommy & wilbur and anyone else. we all have our characters we like/dislike and for me I just don’t like c!phil and i just feel the need to analyze his ability/inability as a father and how it’s negatively affected wilbur)

I think that the way Phil has treated and has been implied to treat c!Wilbur is a direct cause and in correlation to everything Wilbur has done, including the events of November 16th. 

Let me explain. There is a long running pattern of the way Phil addresses and refers to Wilbur, and of how Wilbur refers to Phil that can give us a huge clue on their relationship, views, and other opinions about each other, as well as their past. 

Phil has a pattern of referring and making references to Wilbur as if he were a very young child, despite his age being in his 20′s (and in revived Wilbur’s case, mentally in his 40′s). 

Here’s some examples:

November 16th, he referenced Wilbur’s breakdown to a child throwing their toys out of a pram during a temper tantrum

Gave an example of Wilbur destroying toy/built buildings as a kid, comparing it to the destruction of L’manburg

Threatened to kick Wilbur out of his house if he didn’t ‘go play with the neighbor kid’ Ranboo

Doomsday, ‘You’ll understand when your older’ following Ghostbur’s speech about how Doomsday was unnecessary and hurt innocent people and things

Phil consistently refers to Wilbur as if he were a child. He talks down to him. He addresses him as a young child. He doesn’t take what he says seriously, and scolds him, once again, like a child. 

There could be a plethora of reasons for this, from his immortality, to Wilbur having left as a teen, whatever the reason he is constant and persistent in treating him like a child. To the point where he doesn’t even take what he says seriously, brushing him off with nonsense as one would a kid. 

When he found out that Wilbur had lied to him about the events of early L’manburg, Wilbur admitted to this and compared it to if a parent had sent their child to a camp or school and it cost them a lot of money, but they’re having an awful time, but they lie so their parents feel good about the money they spent. 

Wilbur felt as though Phil would be disappointed in what he did, so he lied and made himself sound great, sound a way he’d be proud, and yet, he got none of that validation. 

Consistently Wilbur does things in hopes of Phil’s validation and support, “Phill will be proud.” “Will Phil be proud?” 

But to our knowledge he never got that. We even somewhat saw that- Wilbur asking if Phil would be proud and Phil in his hardcore world saying ‘why would i be proud?’. Phil’s response is dubiously canon, but what Wilbur states about hoping Phil is proud is. Even so, we do see instances of Phil having a dislike of what Wilbur’s done, even if not outright said. Phil thinks all government is corrupt and that is absolute. Wilbur running one wouldn’t be any different. It wouldn’t skew Phil’s views. 

Also, being Wilbur’s guardian and parent, he’s directly responsible for much of what Wilbur has learned, including his very black and white views of thinking and the world. 

Phil views most things as strictly good or bad. L’manburg was strictly bad in his eyes. Everyone apart of it was bad with only a few exceptions (Ranboo). 

Meanwhile he views everything himself or Techno having done as for the greater good. No matter who they hurt or what is innocently victim, they’re right. 

This translates to Wilbur’s views of the world and himself, where he believes that everyone views him as bad sometime in Pogtopia. In his eyes that means he could be nothing but bad, and so he played the roll of what he thought others saw him as. He’d be bad before they could make assumptions, at least that way he had some control over it. 

It’s the same when we look at his conversations with Ranboo, where he doesn’t believe there’s a middle ground. Things don’t exist without sides, he’s adamant on these views. 

So inherently it’s these views which heavily contribute to Wilbur’s own self views and worth, which sure as hell didn’t help his mental spiral in Pogtopia, and the further lack of any sort of acknowledgement from Phil despite his desperate want for it just helped. 

Now something a bit ‘controversial’ for some reason. 

Phil was responsible for Wilbur’s death, no one else.

Wilbur’s death was nothing short but assisted suicide. Someone who commits suicide is not responsible for their own death. 

L’manburg wasn’t responsible. Manberg wasn’t responsible. Tommy, Quackity, etc. etc. They’re not responsible for Wilbur’s death. 

The only person responsible is the man who actually killed him, and that was Phil. 

Phil killed his own son, and no amount of pressure should lead to such an outcome. No amount of hopelessness should lead to that, there’s no excuses. 

Even the excuse of Phil being unaware of Wilbur being on his final life, or being unaware of his mental health, that doesn’t hold up. Someone begging for death is outright a red flag for anyone, but is especially worse being his own son. 

What makes it worse is it isn’t a spur of the moment decision. He hesitate. He weighs other options, such as not killing him, and yet ultimately decides to anyway.

Anyone, given the situation, where you think someone is mentally sound, begs you to kill them? Would you go through with it? No! Especially not someone you know and hold dear. There is no excuse for Phil killing his son. Not one. 

And before anyone tries to throw that Wilbur was killed for the safety of others, or that Phil didn’t know he was on his final life, here’s the rebuttal (because I will not be arguing or discussing in the comments/replies <3). 

What made Wilbur a threat in that moment? He’d already pressed the button. Fun fact: No one died to Wilbur’s explosion. 

Wilbur had no armor on him. He had no more TNT. He had a sword of which he’d promptly given to Phil, it wasn’t even fully enchanted. He was not a danger. Any danger he was was neutralized already. Killing him did absolutely nothing, he was not a threat. Interestingly enough, there was a threat on the field that day. Technoblade. Techno had spawned three withers and started to shoot and fight people. If Philza had been concerned about Wilbur killing civilians and felt the need to kill Wilbur to stop that, how come he’d not felt the same need to kill Technoblade? Techno’s withers caused deaths (including Wilbur when he respawned), as well as further destruction. An argument can not be made that Phil was neutralizing a threat when he left a greater one alive to continue. I mean, you could make that argument, but that’d also make it worse by admitting Phil holds Techno in a higher ‘do not kill’ priority than his own son. 

And to those who might say ‘but he didn’t know Wilbur was on his last life’! Okay, I raise you this, what exactly would’ve been the benefit of Wilbur dying, of Phil killing him there? I want to reiterate that Wilbur wasn’t a threat November 16th, and that if he’d died and respawned, if nothing else being killed would’ve only furthered his deep mental health spiral and would’ve continued to worsen Phil’s relationship with him. 

There’s no way you can twist Phil’s assistance of Wilbur’s suicide in a positive light. He was not forced. There was no threat to neutralize. It wasn’t an accident. He was face to face with a problem, a question and a demand. He was face to face with his son begging him to be killed and he hesitated. He contemplated not killing him but ultimately decided to kill Wilbur. 

Moving on past his death, Phil treated Ghostbur, in the bluntest way possibly, absolutely awfully. 

Phil claimed he was mourning, that Ghostbur was just a shell of his son, but it was no one’s fault for that but himself. But on the same level, he’d never really tried to know Ghostbur, because from other points of views we see how those claims are completely and utterly false. Even from his own perspective, see his speech during Doomsday. 

It’s not an excuse to treat someone how Ghostbur was treated, which was often ignored, brushed off, belittled, etc. He once again suffered from Phil treating him like a child. “You’ll understand when you’re older” type beat. 

He felt burdened by feeling as if he were babysitting, which was never really the case. Phil would hardly listen to Ghostbur, often giving him short and curt responses like ‘yes Ghostbur’, or ‘okay Ghostbur’. He’d ignore him for the most part, disregard his feelings about Friend or his thoughts about other things. 

On Doomsday, he looked down on Ghostbur, spouting that he wouldn’t understand, that all of L’manburg was bad, even when Ghostbur desperately tried to voice otherwise. That innocent people were hurt, asking what he ever did to deserve his home to be destroyed, for Friend to die, and Phil doesn’t address this. He doesn’t address Ghostbur’s points, only brushing him off as misunderstanding. 

He proceeded to tell Techno how mad he was, and laughed with him at the mention of Ghostbur forgetting their argument. Ghostbur did, and Phil spoke with him as if nothing happened.

This is so especially upsetting when you have the perspective of Wilbur, who views Phil in such a positive light on a pedestal. He always spoke well of him. He told Tommy how great he was. He seems to always seek Phil’s approval, and he gets none. 

Here’s some more instances of Phil treating Wilbur as if he were a child:

Comparing Friend to a pet goldfish that he has to 'lie about' dying or replacing

Comparing the burger van to another on of Wilbur's projects he'll grow bored of

Here’s a bonus of how Wilbur felt like a child:

Comparing the lies in his letters to a lie a child would tell their parent about how well summer camp is going to make them feel better about their decision or money spent to send the kid to summer camp

This is a pattern, it’s not a good one. It shows us one big thing, and that is that Phil doesn’t view Wilbur like an adult. He constantly and consistently views him as a child which needs reprimanding or can’t do things on his own, can’t be trusted. It’s belittling. 

Time and time again he’s not given respect for his accomplishments, for his decisions. His opinions and thoughts, his concerns, anything he does is treated as if it’s worthless babble from a child. That’s how Phil treats him. 

There could be many reasons why, we’ve never been outright told much of their past. 

Maybe Phil sees him as a child because he’s immortal and he just is stuck thinking that his 24 year old son is a child. 

Maybe it’s because Wilbur left as a teen so Phil never got to see him grow into an adult so he treats him how he remembers him. 

I mean, we do know Wilbur left home some time ago. There was enough time for him to meet Tommy while Tommy was relatively young. He ‘named’ him. (Tommy said he’d spent a while finding on his own before he met Wilbur, but they’ve also known each other for at least a few years to have the relationship that they do). 

We don’t know why Wilbur left or how early/young, just that he did years before the events of the DSMP. Enough time to meet Sally and have all the stories he does, enough to have had Fundy and known Tommy longer than he did Sally.

 We don’t know exactly how Wilbur’s childhood was like. We don’t know how Phil initially raised him, but we know Wilbur respects him. We know Wilbur spoke very highly of him to people like Tommy. We also know that he was gone long enough to develop some differing opinions, such as his views on government.

We know Wilbur desperately wants Phil’s approval and doesn’t receive it. Almost everything he’s done, he’s mentioned Phil and Phil’s approval and his opinion. He has most of his deep-rooted opinions of morality learned from Phil. 

It’s a combination of these things which has deeply contributed to Wilbur’s spiraling mental health. It’s those deep-rooted opinions of morality that he attributed to himself, which furthered his negative views on himself and what he did, all the while hoping what he did manage to do, would impress Phil. 

Then you have his death, which was undeniably Phil’s fault. 

Then being revived, one of the first people Wilbur went out to speak with. He moved in, spoke with him. He was very confronted with the letters and the lies which Wilbur answered, and we learn that again he just wanted Phil to be proud of him. 

But then, he has an idea, to build a burger van. Something he seemed proud to do, excited to do. He asked Phil to help him, but Phil told him to go make friends with Ranboo, threatening to ground or kick him out if he didn’t (once again, treating him like a child, but also not even helping Wilbur with a new project, brushing it off). 

Phil had been guilt over Wilbur’s death, he’d stated that multiple times. He felt guilt over murdering his son, assisting his suicide, and yet given the opportunity to spend time with him, build with him, help him, he denies it. He doesn’t want to help him with the burger van, not even help Wilbur collect supplies, and he tells him to go do it with Ranboo. 

Every time Wilbur wants validation, respect, help from his father, he gets none in return. He’s left respecting and clinging to the chance of validation from a man who doesn’t respect him in the slightest nor view him as worthy of being validated or proud of. 

TLDR: Philza is a horrendous father. He’s only made Wilbur’s situation worse and if anything could be attributed as an underlying cause to most of Wilbur’s problems and sufferings. Phil’s biggest shortcoming, aside from assisting Wilbur with his suicide, boils down to his complete and utter lack of respect for Wilbur. He views Wilbur as a child and doesn’t respect his ability to do things on his own or his views and opinions. What he’s taught Wilbur along with his treatment of him has contributed a lot to Wilbur’s views on himself and the world which has had devastating effects on his life.

[kiuda]

Some people: 'Oh I feel so sad when I see c!Tommy/c!Tubbo/c!Ranboo/c!whatever critical posts :(( I don't see them, because they are tagged, but it sucks that they exist!'

c!Dream apologists a lot of the time: 'Oh I get sad when I see posts with c!Dream crit or neg because they are never tagged and when I ask the op to add a tag I get told 'BUT I'M JUST TELLING THE TRUTH!''

we are not the same

[angeloncewas]

mcytblr red flags, according to mcytblr themselves (mainly dsmpblr)

(Disclaimer that this A) is not reflective of my personal opinions and B) doesn't cover all responses; I tried to focus most on trends !)

General -

Twitter users (x6)

Having a superiority complex about your blog (x5)

Taking stuff too seriously (x5)

People who add mcyt stuff to posts not about mcyt (x4)

Mcytblr superiority (x4)

People who don't rb art (x4)

Trying to apply irl concepts to mcyt (x3)

Having an mcytblr blog (x2)

Hermitblr (x2)

Not tagging triggers (x2)

People who insult ND traits (x2)

Dsmpblr

Not disclosing if you're white or poc

People who call mcyt haters "antis"

People with that "mcytblr supremacists dni" banner in their pinned

People who refuse to tag/untag things

Intense kinners

Excessive complaining

People who act as though headcanons are canon

If you're under 14

People who understand MCC

People who break their own DNIs

Blog content -

X-reader writers (x8)

Truthers (x7)

People that got mad at mcc15 (x5)

Blogs that are too into the darker parts of the lore (x4)

DNF shippers (x3)

Shipping blogs (x2)

People who only post lore (x2)

Real people analyzers (x2)

People who only post analysis (x2)

People who post Michael angst (x2)

Making more callout posts than actual content

Blog structure -

"c!dream apologist" in bio (x2)

"[character] apologist" in pinned/bio (x2)

Has any dsmp member's fanbase in their DNI

-

Gogy pfps (x18)

Irl cc pics as pfps (x4)

Dream pfps (x2)

Sad-ist pfps with no credit (x2)

Inniter pfps

Ranboo pfps

Karl pfps

Irl Dream pfps

Picrew pfps

People with Pintrest edits of ccs as pfps

-

Header is an irl pic/gif

Uncredited art as an icon/header

Icon unrelated to a blog's content

Essay-length pinned post

People with too much info in their bio

Carrds

-

Canon urls (x2)

"Fandom" urls (x2)

Soot urls

Innit urls

DNF urls

Dream urls

Techno urls

Phil urls

"Trash" "nerd" urls

"Gogy"/"notfound" urls

[sexuality][minor creator] urls

[sexuality][creator] urls

Based on enjoyment -

Beeduo mains (x5)

George mains (x5)

Dteam mains (x3)

BBH mains (x2)

Ranboo mains (x2)

Eggpire mains

Emerald duo mains

Rivalsduo mains

Allium duo mains

Benchtrio mains

-

George-only blogs (x5)

SBI-only blogs (x3)

Benchtrio-only blogs

-

Emerald duo fans (x3)

Inniters (x2)

Beeduo fans

Ranboo fans

Based on negatives -

Karl haters (x9)

Constantly disclaiming that you like the dsmp but hate Dream/the Dteam (x5)

Dream haters (x3)

People who dislike Puffy (x3)

Being mad at Scott for Ace Race (x3)

Being mad at H for MCC (x2)

Getting mad over MCC (x2)

People who love George, but hate Dream and Sapnap (x2)

People who don't like Sapnap (x2)

Calling Karl "annoying" (x2)

Tommy haters (x2)

SBI stans who hate the Feral Boys

People who think Wibur is a control freak

If you don't like Sneeg

Mcytblr people who hate the dsmp

Dream SMP -

c!Dream apologists (x14)

People who hate c!Tommy (x5)

Supporters of doomsday (x3)

"c!Niki is a girlboss" (x2)

"c!Wilbur is insane" (x2)

Calling L'manberg "colonizers" (x2)

c!Techno haters (x2)

People who call c!Slimecicle a child (x2)

Ignoring the exile arc (x2)

Calling c!Niki and c!Puffy lesbians

People who act like c!Tommy's done nothing wrong

Ghostbur infantalizers

People who call c!Phil a bad dad

People who think c!Dream is pure evil

People who say that c!Sam is a cop

People who think c!Sam has done nothing wrong

Calling c!Ranboo and c!Tubbo bad dads

Ranking c!Ranboo as a better dad than c!Tubbo

People who insist c!beeduo are romantic

Only talking about c!Puffy as a mother/therapist

Blaming c!Tommy for what he's been through

c!Techno + c!Phil apologists

People who hate c!Phil

People who call them "manipulated minors"

People who say the enderwalk is evil

Oddly specific -

If they talk like they swallowed a dictionary

Unironicly relates to Your New Boyfriend

Creating kinnie accounts to flirt with ccs on Tumblr

Sending asks about piss to imposter blogs

Georgeburs who hate Dream

People with strong feelings about Karl

If you tagged the "red flags" post with "c!dream apologists"

People who say "icb"

Tickle fetishists

Anyone who's made a post that got over 834 notes

Benchtrio fans who post unprompted George neg

If you have the username whoregnf

Maining punz but misspelling bttv emotes

"Resse"

"Steph"

They follow @/off-and-odd-again or are @/hearty-an0n, @/sally-salmon, @/sajdd, or @/thesmpisonfire (all self-nominated)

Regarding discourse -

Posts too much discourse (x7)

Crits non-villain characters too much (x2)

Posts neg a lot (x2)

Doesn't tag crit (x2)

Karl-crit blogs (x2)

"I don't do discourse"

"I do discourse"

People who post too much twt neg

Puts c!crit in the main tags

People who crit anarchism when criticizing c!Techno and c!Phil

People who deflect crit as ableism

People who post ableist crit

Regarding content creators -

People who post random cc neg (x3)

People who make hating ccs a personality trait (x2)

People who're too defensive about their fave cc (x2)

People who like one cc but hate their friends (x2)

Trying to boss around ccs

People too invested in ccs' sexualities

People overly invested in ccs' hair

People who break cc boundaries

People who call ccs republicans

People who rank ccs' attractiveness

Community -

People who dono about alt pronouns (x3)

People who cant separate lore from real life (x3)

Interacts with the big inniter blogs a lot

Rb-ing posts from too many inniters

If you only read recaps and still make analysis posts

People who complain about the fandom making tommy too soft

People who send hate to big blogs

Enthusiastblr

If you take apologist labels too seriously

If you call yourself an apologist

"I'm never listening to Dream's music"

People too into crimeboys

Art -

Drawing anime Techno

Drawing Ponk with straight hair

Drawing cc!Ranboo without a mask

Zombie Wilbur fanartists

People who draw fat people skinny

People who draw c!Tubbo completely blonde

Having a Steven Universe art style

Artists who refuse to stop drawing with MD with the Mexican flag

[0xeyedaisy]

Heyo! Can I ask about the context of whatever the c!phil neg was? I'm not like upset or anything i just wasnt there for the stream lol

He was trying to teach c!Tommy to "value ppl other items" which is just annoying at this point and he also put all the blame on c!Tubbo for exiling c!Tommy and maybe some other stuff that I don't remember anymore, check the CPhil neg/crit tags ppl there prolly have some things to say abt him

[dreamslesbian]

i am an abuse survivor and i luv c!dream ! like i couldn’t watch exile because of how scarily familiar it was but even now i like. still am a c!dream apologist. like. abusers can change. they can get better. its very complex and like my fave discduo dynamic in fics is where tommy like. doesnt forgive him but he still wants to help dream heal bc they were friends once and it makes me so :( /pos but yeah its just? ok exile was fucked up We Know. we know. you know what else is fucked up? calling abuse survivors abuse apologists over the internet for liking a character

agreed, i really wish people remembered we are real people with real lives and experiences, regardless of what character we like and sympathize/empathize with.

and it's not like i don't understand where they are coming from ? before the dsmp i was deep in the bnha fandom and hated endeavor, for personal reasons as i assume is the case for a lot of people with c!dream. i even wrote crit/neg of his character on main tags (which i regret and wouldn't do again tbh), but the thing is it never crossed my mind to call his fans abuse apologists, or harass them on their inbox/replies/etc. like my distaste was with his character and narrative, and even if i was critical of both i also didn't think the author himself was an abuse apologist. because both fans and author are real people who i know nothing about and cannot judge based on their general opinion of one fictional character. and im not going to lie and say some positive fan content of his character didn't make me uncomfortable bc it did, it made me feel like people were making light of the things his character did but. that's just how i felt, it wasn't an actual objective assessment and was heavily biased by my own experiences. i knew nothing of the people making that content, why they did it or what their own experiences were like. im not going to go accuse them of anything especially bc really, they were doing nothing wrong despite how i felt.

sorry this turned into a rant anon but basically my point is that im not unsympathetic to people who are uncomfortable with c!dream and positive content of him, but i still think that at the very least not harassing us and calling us abuse apologists is just the bare minimum of decency to ask for.

[tobi-smp]

Also since I'm still here, and this one is ok to post If you want, can you please tag your posts next time? I have the crits and negs tags filtered but it's hard when people don't put them and just post it on a cc main tag :/

I know it's your interpretation of cannon and that is totally fine, but taging is important courtesy

context: [Link 1, Link 2, Link 3]

I'm not going to touch your other ask anon, because it's frankly full of Interesting interpretations of what I had to say, but I Do think this is worth addressing on it's own.

tagging for "[character] crit" Is a courtesy yes, and one that I usually try to remember. However. it's become increasingly apparent to me that "crit" and "neg" are very often shorthand for "meta that I do not agree with," especially when it comes to people asking for posts to be removed from the main tags entirely (which to your credit, you didn't do).

the situation with c!dream is that people who sympathize with his character take plainly stated facts about the things that he Objectively Did as criticism because it makes him look bad. my posts were not about criticizing dream as a character, they were about how I personally think it's obvious that tommy was the intended target for the prison. it's not my fault if dream's canon actions read poorly.

you can call it "[my] interpretation" but the fact is dream Did kidnap tommy, he Did destroy l'manberg, he Did try to kill tubbo, and he Did try to imprison tommy. those things happened. if I can't state that fact Without you reading criticism into that statement then maybe you need to reevaluate your opinion on the character.

[irrealisms]

so THREE DAYS AGO i told @simplepotatofarmer​​​ that i would write up my opinions on the bedrock bros teamup “later today”

this was derailed in part because i’m bad at things but in PART because i wanted to make sure that my memory was right and rewatch VODs and get transcripts and so on. this, uh, got long. 

cw for both c!techno crit and c!tommy crit, as well as both c!tommy and c!techno apologetics; that said, i tend to be significantly more critical of techno and less critical of tommy, which is why i haven’t tagged the c!tommy crit.

tl;dr my viewpoint is that they both behaved quite badly, their communication was Shit, and they both treated each other in ways that were cruel, given each other’s existing issues. the way they acted was understandable and sympathetic to me, and in some cases they genuinely didn’t have better options, but it was still a wildly unhealthy situation. i think that you can argue either way on whether tommy betrayed techno, and i think it is inarguable that he hurt techno, but i still think that his decision to leave was correct. i also defend my decision to hold techno to a higher standard than tommy due to age, circumstances, etc. 

yes, i realize this is all a rehash of things that have been debated to death. in my defense, i’m relatively new to the fandom, and also the lore drought is slowly killing us all.

so the first thing i want to address is that the teamup began because tommy broke into techno’s house, started living there, and stole his stuff. this was right before the butcher army, which techno only survived due to dream’s help; if tommy living with techno had caused dream to rescind that help in the future, that puts techno in an extremely vulnerable position. not only that, but techno did not know what had happened in exile. it would be (and was) kind of techno to shelter him, but it was not a moral obligation. this is especially true when you keep in mind that--unlike irl--it is normal in minecraft to start your life with nothing in the wilderness. tommy having to be in that position months after joining the server sucks, but it’s not something that might be life-threatening the way it would be irl.

the second thing i want to address is that... yeah, it can be argued that tommy wanted to just use technoblade. in the video where he moves in, he reacts to the idea of asking technoblade to stay by saying “Are you insane? Why would I want to do that? I hate him. I could just stay, and then, every now and then I go up.” While obviously this changed, it’s important to note that he originally wanted to stay with technoblade, not because of his affection for technoblade as a person, but because staying with technoblade makes him less vulnerable.

but i don’t think this was wrong of him. from tommy’s perspective, he can’t return to l’manberg without being returned to his abuser. he can’t return to the greater dream smp without being returned to his abuser. as far as the broader wilderness goes-- dream is good at pvp and has a specialty (cf his skill at parkour tag in mcc, as well as broadly transferrable skills from his manhunts) of finding, chasing down, and defeating another player; i know i called the wilderness not life-threatening earlier, and that’s true to the extent that tommy’s not going to get hypothermia from a snow biome, but it’s not true to the extent that dream very much wants him back. not only that, but in the wilderness he would be totally alone, and the dream smp has not shied away from the effects of isolation, either in exile or during the current prison arc. sure, he’s “using” technoblade--but not as a weapon, as a shield from his abuser. does this suck from technoblade’s perspective and exacerbate his issues around people only wanting him around for his items and pvp abilities? sure. but was it wrong of tommy? i don’t think so.

okay. now it is time for TRANSCRIPTS and ADDRESSING THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, which is “who betrayed who”. the first transcript is from “Nothing goes wrong”, and concerns how they first teamed up:

Techno: You see, Tommy, I know a lot about putting trust in other people, and having them, having them betray that trust, using me, as a weapon, and then casting me aside when it's most convenient for them. "Oh, just a little threat from Dream, and oh we gotta exile TommyInnit, oh, 'cause Dream will get mad at us," what's the point? What's the point of a government if it sells out its own citizens? It doesn't even work! ...That's why we have to take down the government, Tommy. You wanna be friends with Tubbo? You wanna know what's driven you apart? Why you don't have your discs? It's because of the government! If there was no government, you and Tubbo could be friends, you could have your discs back, there'd be nothing to threaten! ...Join me. Let's destroy L'Manberg. [long pause while Tommy thinks and Techno has an unrelated whisper conversation with Ghostbur] Tommy: You promise if I... if I join you, we don't have to be pals-- Techno: We don't have to be pals. Believe me! Tommy (overlapping): You, you-- hey, listen, listen, you'll help with-- Techno (overlapping): In fact, we, it's not even an option! Alright, just give up on that. Tommy: You-- you'll help me get back my discs. Techno: I'll help you get back your discs, Tommy. Tommy: I won't help you but you'll help me. Techno: You'll help me just destroy the government. Tommy (overlapping): I will not destroy L'Manberg. I won't help you destroy the government. But you'll-- you'll let me-- Techno: Well, tell you what, we'll do some minor terrorism, from which the government can-- eh, you know what, Tommy? We'll get the details on the way. We'll get the details on the way, Tommy, alright? Tommy: Technoblade, I am a huge fan of minor terrorism. Techno: That's just what I wanna hear. Tommy, truthfully-- Tommy: Not major terrorism though-- Techno: Yeah, just, just-- Tommy (overlapping): I don't wanna take down no governments, I'm just, all I'm saying is just-- Techno (overlapping): Just follow me, follow me, Tommy. Tommy (overlapping): Listen, listen! I don't wanna be pals with you. I-- if you promise, promise me, hey, pinkie promise, eh? Techno: Yes, yes, pinkie promise. Tommy: To get me my discs back. If you help me to get my discs back, 'cause, uh, my options are looking real slim, I'll be honest-- Techno: Yeah, your options are pretty terrible now, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie, it's not looking great for you.

Their original agreement was clear: Tommy has a hard limit around helping to destroy L’Manberg, and does not want it taken down; he is, however, willing to do minor terrorism. In return for the minor terrorism, he wants Technoblade’s help in getting his discs back. (That said, Technoblade is not exactly quiet about his preferred goal being to destroy L’Manberg.) They also both acknowledge that Tommy’s in a bad situation and doesn’t have many choices.

The second transcript is from “Tommy Is Betraying Tubbo”, and it covers their conversation in the community house, which includes their renegotiation. I’ll be splitting it into parts, because there are a few things I want to address with it, and it’s really long.

Techno: Tommy, let's take things one at a time, let's destroy L'Manberg, and then we can worry about the other discs, alright? Tommy: Why would we destroy L'Man-- L'Manberg's where I-- why, no no no no no, I'm just getting back my discs, we're not destroying it-- Techno: Right, right, I, uh. [pause] Y'know, Tommy, I think it-- I think it's time I came clean to you, Tommy. You know, when I first found you in my house, you were, uh, you were just like living in the floorboards like a raccoon, and I'm gonna be honest, Tommy, I didn't really respect you back then. You were kinda useless, loud, annoying, British, you know, it's like the worst combination. [laughs] I just thought of that, I thought, "that's gonna be funny, wow." [digression about viewership. PSA: subscribe to technoblade] Tommy: What were you saying though? Techno: Anyway, so, I'm gonna be real-- y'know, I'm thinking, at first I thought you were kinda useless, Tommy, I was just kinda, just kinda bringing you along to achieve my own ends. But, uh... now that we've committed all this terrorism together, I'm starting to think you might not be completely useless! I mean not-- maybe not like above average, but at least average, you know, on the usefulness scale? What I'm saying is, Tommy, I think it's about time I told you that my real plan, Tommy. I am going to destroy L'Manberg, alright? I am going to leave it a chunk error. That country is gone. I am not going to rest until that entire country has been completely obliterated for what it did to me and Phil, Tommy, alright? [pause, Tommy looks out at L'Manberg] And I think you should join me, Tommy. I'm telling you this because I actually- I actually have the slightest trace of respect for you, alright? Maybe not as equals, but, y'know, I think you're worth being honest with, Tommy, because L'Manberg? They've screwed you over as well, Tommy, alright? They exiled you, they abandoned you, L'Manberg is the source of all of your problems. And that's why we need to get rid of it, Tommy.

some of the relevant things I want to highlight here is that Technoblade admits that he has been hiding (...again, not very well) his plans to destroy L’Manberg from Tommy because he did not respect Tommy and was just using him to achieve his own ends. He notes that he does not see Tommy as an equal. they converse more (I have a transcript of the rest of it as well but this is already wayyyyy too long), and then:

Tommy: I don't really... why, why-- Techno (overlapping): You don't have to decide now, Tommy. Tommy: Why have you only just gained respect for me now? Techno: Oh, because y'know, you've actually stood up to Dream, you've actually like done some terrorism, I'm gonna be honest, Tommy, you were kinda useless and annoying when I first met you. But now, you've actually been doing things. The violence, the terrorism, you might go a little bit too far sometimes, Tommy, but you could actually be useful. Tommy: Techno? Techno: You could actually be... dare I say it? ... A friend. Tommy: You know that's all I've ever wanted from you. Techno (overlapping): The choice. The choice is yours, Tommy. Tommy (overlapping): I mean, you remember Hypixel Skyblock, when I'd stand, trying to-- Techno (overlapping): Hypixel Skyblock is now canon-- Tommy: I mean this is-- Techno: It's now canon! Tommy: You remember how that's all I've ever want-- [cuts himself off abruptly] [pause] Techno: The choice is yours, Tommy. But I'm just being upfront with you, that I'm going to destroy L'Manberg, all right? No lies, no deception. Tommy (quietly): ... 'kay. Techno: And I'll understand, if you don't wanna join me. But I'll do it myself. Alright? Tommy: I-- Techno: That country is going to be gone. Techno: You don't have to help me, but I'm telling you it's in your best interest, but it's up to you. Alright? Tommy: Techno, okay-- Techno: That country, it cast you aside, it's made your own friends turn against you... that country caused all your problems. [pause] Tommy (very quietly): Technoblade, I will join you. Techno: Aw, yes! Aw, yes, it's gonna be a red Christmas, weeks after Christmas, actually-- Tommy (overlapping): I, uh, listen to me, listen to me, I'm not-- I, you didn't hear me out, I'm, you didn't hear me out. You didn't hear me out! Techno: Oh. Sorry, was there like a conditional statement? Tommy (overlapping): I'm getting back the discs. Techno: Ooh, discs, yeah. Tommy (overlapping): I'm getting back the discs, yeah, that's, you know that's my thing, but then. It's Tubbo's home, it's my home, it's not finished, it's not ready-- Techno (overlapping): This seems like the opposite of destroying. Tommy (overlapping): It's not ready to go. Well I'll- you said "do you wanna join me?", I'll join you, but I can't-- I mean, you know I need my discs. Techno: Well yeah, we can get you your discs, but that country's blowing up is kind of a separate, a separate condition here. Tommy: But the discs first, alright? Promise me that. Techno: Um. No. Tommy (overlapping): Please. Techno: I mean, I can help you get back your discs, but that country, that country's going, it's going up in smoke, first opportunity. But I will help you get back your discs. So, who has it? Like, Dream, Tubbo... Tommy (overlapping): Just Dream, just Dream, I knew, I was saying it to Fundy, I already knew, I just wanted to know-- Techno (overlapping): Doesn't Tubbo have discs? Tommy: Tubbo? Oh, yeah, Tubbo, and Dre... Tubbo. and Dream. Techno: Yeah, so, Tubbo. Tommy: Yeah, but we don't have to -- as soon as we get the one off Dream, then the one from Tubbo is fine, I'll-- we just need to take away Dream's power-- Techno (overlapping): Nah, I'm not-- I'm taking the first opportunity I get of blowing up L’Manberg, man-- Tommy (overlapping): We need to take away Dream's power. Technoblade! We should totally, dude, we, dude listen to me, we should totally blow up the community house! Like, that would take away his power, that would be the thing that makes him unstable, we get the fucking-- Techno (overlapping): I, I really-- are you saying that the community house is Dream's home, so if we blow it up, he'll be homeless. He'll be homeless for real. Tommy (overlapping): Yeah, he built that, he built that! We blow it up, well, we can't blow it up, oh we could just literally do it off stream, man, that would be so-- would just record it, make a highlight-- Techno (overlapping): I-- I don't know if that's a great idea, Tommy, I'm mostly-- Tommy (overlapping): Five million views, let's do it, let's do it! Techno: I'm mostly just trying to blow up L’Manberg, here, I'm not-- Tommy: Well-- Techno: That's a separate issue-- Tommy: Okay. ... We didn't check on our dogs. [conversation ends.]

In this, Tommy does agree to join Technoblade, who is making it clear that his goal is to blow up L’Manberg. However, this is conditional on Technoblade promising to get the discs first, which Technoblade flatly refuses. Throughout the conversation, Technoblade emphasizes what he is going to do no matter what, which is “destroy L’Manberg ASAP”. He is willing to help Tommy get his discs back, but not to prioritize this over destroying L’Manberg, and focuses on Tubbo and Tubbo’s power over Dream and Dream’s power. Tommy says he is willing to join Technoblade in response to Tecnoblade talking about destroying L’Manberg, but Tommy’s very unclear throughout the rest of the conversation what he thinks he is agreeing to--he talks about L’Manberg being his home, asks for a promise to get the discs first, and focuses on Dream and Dream’s power over Tubbo and Tubbo’s power. The conversation ends without them resolving this.

Also of note is Tommy’s outro to the video:

Tommy: Between us, chat, I really don't the whole, you know, him being all like, "We should just obliterate L'Manberg."  Uh, I actually know that I don't want that at all. Shit, boys. Shit. Well!!! Thank you all SO much for watching[...]

I include these conversations mostly because I want to be clear that this teamup was always doomed. In both conversations, both parties are relatively upfront about their goals and desires. Tommy does not and has never wanted to blow up L’Manberg; he is, in fact, consistently opposed to this. Technoblade does want to blow up L’Manberg; he’s willing to help Tommy only insofar as it aids him in this goal. These are incompatible goals. Both characters were upfront about this from the beginning and teamed up anyway out of convenience to achieve their own ends. Both characters have moments of being unclear or even lying--Technoblade in the first conversation when he emphasizes minor terrorism and says that they can work out the details later, Tommy in the second conversation when he agrees to join Technoblade while Techno is discussing destroying L’Manberg. They also both tend to talk over each other constantly. This is not a situation where I would consider either “Technoblade wants to destroy L’Manberg” or “Tommy does not want to destroy L’Manberg” a betrayal; again, they have both been very clear about this from the beginning. Admittedly, Tommy has not been clear about what he will do if Technoblade destroys it anyway, which is (in my opinion) largely because... he cannot do anything about it. Again, Technoblade’s house and in the presence of Technoblade is quite plausibly the only place on the SMP where he will not be returned to his abuser. It does not surprise me, reading these conversations, that he would help Tubbo try to stop Technoblade from destroying L’Manberg as soon as this was a thing he could safely do without being returned to exile with Dream, because he does not and has never wanted L’Manberg to be destroyed. is it a betrayal? well, maybe. if the situation is that Tommy and Technoblade are on a team together against L’Manberg, then yes, it’s a betrayal, the same way that defecting to an opposing army during a war is defecting. if the situation is that Tommy and Technoblade have an agreement where [Tommy helps with terrorism against L’Manberg] in exchange for [Technoblade helps Tommy get the discs], then--given that Techno was not, as far as I can tell, particularly prioritizing the discs, and certainly did not actually get any--it’s not particularly a betrayal for Tommy to call the deal off entirely. (If he did take actions specifically towards getting the discs back, let me know--I know he says a couple times that the L’Manberg terrorism will help Tommy get his discs back, but this was before he was being particularly honest with Tommy, and most of the terrorism was leveraged into getting Techno items or information in order to destroy L’Manberg. That said, it’s definitely possible I missed something, there are a lot of VODs, and it would definitely be a betrayal to try and get out of an agreement without doing your part after you’ve benefited from it!) Personally, I do see it more as a team-up situation, especially given how much their friendship grew during this time period, so I do think Tommy betrayed Techno, but.. mostly I think that they suffered from extremely poor communication. 

speaking of their friendship: it’s also a betrayal of their friendship, which I think hurts them both worse by the end of it, but... that was inevitable from the start. they were both clear on what they wanted; neither of them compromised or had any real willingness to compromise. they had incompatible goals and values. this is broadly fine in the first conversation, when them being ‘pals’ is out of the question! but by the time of the second conversation? when they’re friends? it hurts a lot worse. this sucks! but… neither of them are particularly at fault in that situation.

and here’s where i put my tommy apologist hat on: while i’m putting aside the question of whose values are right (...because this post is already Too Goddamn Long), I do think that it was the right choice to betray their friendship. their relationship was unhealthy and unsustainable. they didn’t see each other as equals. they used each other. they didn’t listen to each other. I’m very unclear about the canonicity of the streams and the morality of torturing someone if it’s for a bit and played for laughs--obviously, say, taking Antfrost as a “slav” in pogtopia doesn’t say much about anyone’s principles--but most of the “minor terrorism” involved hurting, non-canonically killing, or torturing people. and i think tommy realized this. at the green festival, when tommy said:

Tommy: What am I-- what am I doing?  Tubbo: I- I don't-- Tommy (whispered): What am I doing? [frustrated noise?] [Dream laughs?] Techno: Tommy. Tommy. Dream: Thank you, Tubbo. I really appreciate it. Techno (overlapping): Tommy, what are you doing? Tommy (also overlapping): I'm not-- Techno-- I'm so- I'm-- Tommy: This isn't me, this isn't... I mean, I look around, and I'm-- I'm not the person I wanna be. [incomprehensible] Techno: Tommy, what are you saying? Tommy: [Tries to start words a few times] I'm--[sigh] [Tommy turns away from Technoblade to Tubbo] Tommy: I'm so sorry. Techno: Tommy, we could get out of here, we could pearl out, I'd cover your escape, Tommy. We can still get out of here, Tommy, we can regroup! We can plan for another day, Tommy! Tommy: Techno, Techno, if this is what I've become-- Techno (overlapping): (Oh, we're surrounded) Tommy: Then I don't wanna be me anymore. I-- I'm-- Techno: Tommy, what are you saying? Tommy: I'm sorry. Techno: What do you mean, Tommy? Tommy: I'm with Tubbo. Techno: Heh?? Tommy, when I said-- perhaps I wasn't clear yesterday, Tommy, when I said that I'm going to destroy L’Manberg, and that you don't have to help me, when I said you don't have to help me, Tommy, I meant that you could sit it out, not SWITCH SIDES AND FIGHT AGAINST ME! Tommy: I'm not-- Tech-- well, what am I doing? Well what am I-- we've-- Techno: YOU'RE BETRAYING ME IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING, TOMMY! Tommy (overlapping): You wanna know [? hard to hear] but Technoblade, the discs are-- just-- they-- I [distressed noise?] Techno (overlapping): You just told him to give the disc to Dream! Tommy: I'm worse than everyone I didn't wanna be! [pause] Tommy: I-- You know that-- you know, you know-- Techno: Tommy, think hard, think hard about this-- Tommy: I'm-- Techno: Before you make this decision, Tommy, 'cause you can't undo this, you can't undo this decision, Tommy. Tommy: [sigh] Technoblade, I know what I've done, and I hate me for it. I'm sorry.

I support tommy in that conversation. whether or not that is a betrayal, I support that. I support people taking the actions that let them live with themselves, I support people in staying true to their principles and not doing things that make them hate themselves, I support people in going “I hate myself and this is what I need to do to stop”. I am a tommy apologist, but… I try very hard to support this across the board. I think Technoblade made the right decision for himself on November 16th. I think it was wrong of Pogtopia to expect someone to stand aside and let people do something that he thinks is wrong because they’re on the same team. Are Tommy’s values and boundaries less clear than Techno’s were? Probably. Tommy is also 16 and coming directly out of a severely abusive situation. Quite frankly, I think he was remarkably clear about being opposed to destroying L’Manberg, given the situation he was in, where supporting Technoblade’s actions is the primary thing keeping him safe from his abuser. obviously, technoblade is valid to be upset and angry about this! he just got abandoned to a 1v30! he specifically confided in Tommy earlier that he has trauma around being used as a weapon and then discarded when no longer convenient! but… I can’t condemn someone recognizing that a relationship is bad for them and leaving. I just can’t.

this brings up my final and last point, which is that… Tommy is not in a healthy mindspace coming off of exile. Tommy regularly gets confused about what he wants and who his friends are--I didn’t grab transcripts because, again, this post is already too damn long, but I also don’t think there’s substantial debate on this point. While Technoblade also has a lot of trauma, I think this is not immediately obvious to Tommy, especially because Technoblade’s arguments tend to be calm and principled; meanwhile, I think that Tommy’s trauma probably is obvious to Technoblade, given that Technoblade talks him down from at least two panic attacks that I can remember off the top of my head without checking VODs. While Technoblade’s canonical age is unknown, including to Technoblade himself (implying that he’s quite old, although it’s also possible that he’s young and just bad at counting or keeping track), he’s certainly more mature than Tommy, and in a significantly better mental place. There’s also a serious power differential between them: even if he doesn’t use it, Technoblade has the power to give Tommy back to his abuser; if there was a fight between them, Technoblade would almost certainly win, and might even take Tommy’s last canon life. The worst Tommy has the power to do to Technoblade is steal or destroy his chests of items--which would be bad, certainly, but not really... comparable. This dynamic absolutely informs their relationship, especially given that Technoblade makes it clear that he would in some circumstances be willing to return Tommy to Dream (the infamous “Well that’s going to be a bit of a problem, Dream, because this guy’s with me. […] Unless, of course, you want to call in that favor?” conversation). So while, yes, they both used each other and treated each other badly, IMO, Technoblade had more of a responsibility in this position to do right by Tommy than the reverse, and I judge him more for his failures at it. This is especially true because I believe Techno recognizes this differential to some degree, although he may not realize the extent of the power he has over Tommy due to not being aware of the extent of exile: he says things like “your options are pretty terrible now”, and he was dishonest with Tommy because he didn’t respect him as an equal, which changed when Tommy was able to e.g. commit acts of terrorism and stand up to Dream. I believe that if someone is in an extremely vulnerable position, this gives others more responsibility to do right by them, and makes me more inclined to forgive them for behaving poorly.

[dreamsclock]

I used to be super into sad-ist animations, because it's beautiful art, but it gets genuinely exhausting to deal with the fallout in the comments and across social media platforms, as someone who likes c!Dream. -Minotaur

hey minotaur anon :D so i get this completely LMAO being a c!dream fan and liking any popular animatics / animators usually leads to exhausting takes being rehashed again and again across social media which can be pretty tiring for c!dream fans — especially people who are only c!dream fans ! i find it easier because i’m a huge c!tommy and c!tubbo fan too GDKDBDK, so i can understand how tiring it must be for solo c!dream fans. but because the new animatic looks epic and i want to try and help, here’s some advice !!

how to enjoy c!dream neg stuff as a c!dream apologist

on twitter if you have it: use the mass-block website. it blocks everyone who has liked a tweet you dislike if you use it, and has saved me a lot of stress in the past !! use it as often as you need because it’s your online experience and you should do what it takes to make you comfy :)

on the same lines: on ANY socials, block users reblogging / posting content you don’t like. don’t get involved in discourse if you can help it — just block and move on because it’s the best thing to do. unless anyone brings criticism / neg to my asks / replies / etc, i just ignore it all as best i can ! it can be hard but is much better for my fandom enjoyment.

block tags like c!dream crit, c!dream criticism, c!dream neg, c!dream negative, c!dream negativity, etc. those are some of the best, and you can also block other tags if you need to ^_^

instead, rb / post c!dream positive stuff !! loads of c!dream fans are in the same position when it comes to fan content / takes being negative towards c!dream, so rbing positive c!dream stuff is always helpful for you and others :D

remember that c!dream is getting more and more sympathetic in current lore and soon enjoy people will be animating / creating fan content around that !!!! the current sad-ist animatic seems to be centred around the finale of the disk war, so there probably will be a lot of c!dream neg on socials because he was The Villain TM of that arc and was doing ,, a lot of shitty things honestly, but soon enough people will be (and have been) creating sympathetic c!dream stuff :]

remember this (link leads to twt -> sad-ist’s c!dream design):

and know that sad-ist’s c!dream is my little meow meow <3 no matter what happens we will get to see him !! and maybe prison version of him too !! :DDD

[wichitalk]

My dsmp faves are Wilbur, ghostbur, and exile arc tommy! I’m a certified Jschlatt stan and chuckle sandwich enjoyer. Follow me and my friends pintrest @wichitalk and @itrainsinnyc respectively

I love bendy and the ink machine and regularly post about it. I also like oxenfree and assorted horror. Yes I’m a minor(under 16) Yes I’m in college. I’m a double major in Criminology and Psychology, minor in wildlife biology. It’s not that complicated.

I post criminology/true crime content frequently, filter “criminology posting” if it triggers you

I post c!phil and c!techno crit often but it will never not be tagged properly. Mutuals tag hermitcraft.

If you send me an ask about dream/any Minecraft YouTuber I like being racist and ur fucking white u owe me 20$ usd.

I follow from a diff blog. If I reblog more then like two of your posts I’m probably following you

[ruby-whistler]

Your c!dream post came on my dash and while I can definitely agree with the main point (torture is wrong no matter who it happens to) some of the contents of that post were a bit bothering to me.

the fact that you implied that your concerned for people who really hate c!dream and therefore see the torture as payback is really crossing a line. I really hope I misinterpreted that because it sounds like your implying that you think those people would dehumanize people in real life. That is a big assumption to make my friend, not something you can just throw around because you see someone talking bad about a character you emphasize with.

And like I said, I’m saying that while agreeing with your main point. I can say that your right about that being something we shouldn’t do while also knowing that this is about a Minecraft roleplay revolving around a character who canonically abused a 17 year old. The accusation your making is not something you should throw around. Just like people shouldn’t accuse Dream apologists who say bad stuff about c!tommy of being real life abuse apologists. There’s a huge difference about being attached to a character and saying something dumb and doing these things irl.

Also I thought we were past referring to lmanburg as colonization? I’m not sure if that’s what you were doing but That’s a real thing that effects people and not something you can just pin on a couple of white streamer men roleplaying. Someone more equipped then me can explain why they are very much not comparable at all, and why it’s bad to compare it, ill probably butcher it. I saw a good post about it somewhere.

And then onto the stuff that’s more story based and doesn’t matter as much:

- dream very much did plan to keep tommy in the prison cell for life, like I’m pretty sure he flat out said it or at least very heavily implied it during the confrontation, someone probably has a clip.

- I can agree that Sam wasn’t manipulated by dream, but he does have trauma from him, in fact it’s a big part of his arc. Dream would brag about what he did to tommy in exile, laughed in his face after killing tommy, and often screamed at him threatening to kill him as well. It affected sam greatly and is what started his spiral.

- There are other things in your post that I disagree with to some extent but honestly debating lore things isn’t what I’m here for. So we can agree to disagree. I’m not really to concerned about the lore stuff.

just like you were talking about being careful about what you are saying about c!dream because it can hurt people, I will also say to be careful in what you say about c!dream in his favor because it can also hurt people. Please do not forget he very canonically abused, murdered, and threatened to murder teenagers. That’s a touchy subject, especially because it was displayed in such a raw manner. Is he deserveing of abuse because of it? Of course not. Is he unworthy of growth or change? Of course not. Does that mean people have to forgive him or like him or sympathize with him? No. No one is morally required to sympathize with a character, as long as your not saying gross things about them. ( like claiming that they deserve torture! )

Someone saying something in the heat of the moment about a character who reminds them of their abuser does not justify calling them real life dehumanizers, or claiming they are prone to it. It’s not cool. And, I and feel like In liking c!dream (or any character who has done something really morally wrong) you have to make sure to be respectful towards people who have been in those situations. You can like a character without excusing their actions. Not saying your doing that, just a blanket statement.

Also, please take care of yourself. If seeing people criticize or say bad things about a character you like is causing you genuine distress, please take a break. I tend to hyperfixate and project and I know that sometimes it can be a really harmful thing. It helps a lot to take a deep breathe and step away for a few minutes. This is a reminder to everyone else as well to always tag crit. And to clarify, I’m not trying to like drag you through the mud for anything I disagree with in your post. Like trust me I get heat of the moment reactions and not completely thinking through everything you write down. And just blatantly not knowing that something isn’t cool to say. I just want to make sure it’s known that hey, maybe people shouldn’t say _.

If there’s anything in my post that’s wrong I apologize, I’m open to respectful criticism. And also just to finish this off, I know getting critical asks can be upsetting, so if you are genuinely made upset, angry, or anxious by this ask, please just leave it be. Don’t respond, or take a breather before you do. I’m saying this because like I said I just came across this post, I don’t know you or how you tend to react to things so I don’t want to start a huge thing. Just giving my thoughts and crit.

And also because having people yell/be really rude at me makes me very genuinely anxious! Even if it’s anon. Please keep that in mind if you respond (you don’t have to, it’s up to you) You can respond and disagree however much you like, just please don’t be a jerk about it cause I’ll probably cry lol (seriously tho like I said I’m sensitive)

Alright, so first as a quick disclaimer, I’m going to out a summary of the original post’s points, just to ensure that we’re on the same page;

The post does say:

- don’t dehumanize c!Dream because it continuously hurts people who relate to and/or sympathize with him, also dehumanization in general is an inherently wrong mindset

- don’t attack people who sympathize with him because he’s a victim of abuse besides other things

The post never says:

- you cannot hate c!Dream and not sympathizing with him is wrong

- the things c!Dream has done are to any degree excused

- don’t dehumanize c!Dream because he’s a good person

- people who dehumanize c!Dream are real life abuse apologists

If you read the post and didn’t get these points from it, i advise you to reread it as I made pretty much all of these abundantly clear.

I absolutely never said anything about real life abuse apologism. I continuously put (fictional) in front of things to make that point. I don’t know how you got that from the post.

Dehumanization is wrong. Dehumanization of fictional characters on a large scale to the point where people will excuse his abuse is wrong and it hurts people and I will speak out about it. It doesn’t mean people will dehumanize people irl or that they are prone to it, but it’s still wrong.

I never said L’manberg was colonization. I said some people who have had their country colonized relate to him because he had his home torn apart and is desperate to return it back to its original state. This is a completely valid reason to relate to him as it is a pretty big part of the character.

He said he would “put him in the prison”. I don’t remember him saying it would be forever, but he could’ve said that, however I’d like a clip first. He never said he would be stored in the inhumane, main cell, and it makes a lot more sense that he wouldn’t be in there 1) because Dream said it was only a security measure 2) the prisoner was supposed to be able to move around the prison.

I don’t care that the abuser was “traumatized” by the abuse victim telling him of his actions. If I was being tortured mentally and mistreated and neglected physically by a person who hates my guts for weeks I too would probably threaten him. It didn’t start his spiral. His spiral was caused by corruption and possibly hatred, not being “hurt” by c!Dream. c!Dream didn’t cause himself to be abused, that was fully c!Sam’s decision, and saying otherwise is victim blaming (not saying you did that, just putting this point out here).

I do not forget the bad things he’s done. I was there. I saw it. I hated him for it. I still sympathize with him. I still believe he deserves better. I still believe he deserves to get better. I 100% agree with the point that it’s wrong to say someone is required to feel sympathy, as long as they don’t dehumanize him and harass people who do. That was the literal point of the post.

I am one of the many c!Dream fans who get constantly triggered because of how overwhelming the dehumanization is in the community. It’s not being hypersensitive, and I really hope you’re not implying that. It’s a very real issue that should be solved so that people don’t have to “take breaks” because of it.

I don’t care if people hate him or criticize him. I genuinely couldn’t care less. He did disgusting things. I’m used to it. But it is normalized in the community to say stuff about the character that is genuinely triggering, and would be to anyone if people were saying it on a large scale about their favorite character.

Hope this didn’t come off as too aggressive, I have anxiety and I didn’t want to let my feelings bleed into this because that wouldn’t be good for me. Wish you a nice day.

[smp-live]

Was scrolling through c!Wilbur crit blogs again and it got me thinking about why exactly I argue in favour of him so much so here’s a random ramble (that got long) about it:

Most c!Wilbur critics (at least, in the tag, not directly post-lore stream. The ones that do actual analysis on him) are like... really reasonable about it, actually, lmao. Like it’s mostly just calling him a bad person because of power hunger/manipulation/being a bad dad/whatever else. (Not talking about antis. I mean people who are really critical of him, but recognize that he’s a well-crafted character with nuance.)

Which I agree with! I consider myself an apologist, my writing and analysis leans really sympathetic, and I still agree that he’s a shitty rat bastard that I would run far away from irl. Even at the beginning of the story, he’s very morally grey, sometimes using underhanded persuasion tactics, doing ehh things like stealing, and it only gets worse from there.

But on the other hand, he’s... not that bad. Like I saw one person say about c!Dream, “My reaction to most critique of him is... so what?” and that’s how I feel about c!Wilbur, I suppose. Yeah, he tried to rig an election - but it was a last-ditch effort at not going full dictator, he didn’t follow through, and later on he - in part - decided to blow it up because they couldn’t get it back while being democratic. And yeah, he manipulated people - all in all, it wasn’t really really bad things, mostly to paint himself in a better light because of his insecurities, and people sometimes fall into manipulative language without even outwardly realizing that it’s a shitty thing to do. Of course, that shows a bigger underlying problem in their mindset and the way they interpret relationships and possession, but then that’s a different discussion - and definitely one that applies to c!Wilbur.

(Not saying he doesn’t ever intentionally manipulate people. I think that a. sometimes it might be accidental, (”If you wanna be President you’re gonna have to get on my good side,” mans was Not thinking straight,) and b. other times he falls into old habits/coping mechanisms that happen to be manipulation, (Tommy at Las Nevadas.) Other than the election and maybe some times in the early founding of L’Manberg, I can’t think of any moments where I’m like, “Yeah, he is Purposefully Manipulating here.” And even then, it just doesn’t strike me as a terrible thing. People manipulate, it’s a thing they do. That’s it. A morally grey action.)

And I think the majority of the reason I make more posts painting him in a positive light and don’t really discuss my critique of him is because it feels like the fandom has an overwhelming bias of hatred/crit, even if a lot of that isn’t, y’know, proper analysis of his character. I instinctively want to balance it out for this character I love/relate to, because a lot of what I see straight-up ignores the lighter side of his moral-greyness.

Like, a while back, I posted a couple clips from late-election arc, of Wilbur talking about how he feels about Fundy siding with Quackity and against him. And the way I initially saw it while watching was, “Okay. He feels betrayed by his son who disagrees with his politics - and thus, him as a person, because your politics are a reflection of your identity, especially in Wilbur’s mind - and it’s perfectly understandable that he’d want to vent about that in private to a close friend. On the other hand, he should be able to recognize that Fundy’s allowed to be his own person and shouldn’t be babied. Fundy is in the right, here, but Wilbur’s feelings shouldn’t be dismissed.”

But then 90% of the tags were just straight-up hate for c!Wilbur, going as far as to say that he should die again. (And this was after we found out how bad the afterlife was for him.) That fucking floored me. I just couldn’t understand how they took this nuanced character aching for ‘the son he knew’ back (hm. very similar to c!Phil, actually) and turned it into ‘wow. This suicidal man sucks and should maybe die.’ I was so close to making a post defending him before realizing - I was letting fandom bias against a character push me further onto the sympathetic side.

And that’s such a fuckin’ weird thing to have happen, because you’d think that exposure to negativity about a character would make you feel more negative about them? But without fail, every time I scroll through the crit tag, or read a critical post about c!Wilbur/L’Manberg, I maybe lean a bit more towards that side for a few hours before swinging back hard onto the apologist side. Because a lot of the critique, to me, is really just, “so what?” after I let it stew a bit.

Then there’s the whole mental health issue. Obviously it doesn’t excuse the shit he did - I know people who have been in the middle of breakdowns and the stuff they say still fucking hurts, even if they didn’t truly mean it. But recognizing that he needs help? That for pretty much all his time on-screen, he was depressed and paranoid, which obviously affects the way he acts? That’s obvious. And were he in the position to get professional help - which he deserves - everything would be much better off. That’s the root of my apologism, I think: He deserves to get better. He’s not inherently evil, or bad, just a fucked up little man who’s ruined his own life and needs help. I want to see him, specifically him, get better.

Narratively, his punishment has been extreme and disproportionate. Every mistake, every choice - good or bad - has led to suffering, on his part. Start a fun little rebellion, maybe to gain some power? War and betrayal. Declare an election to consolidate said power? Lose, and get exiled. Blow up a nation? Die, and even in the afterlife, he can't catch a break. Purely as a sympathetic human, it feels like he deserves to rest. Deserves to heal.

But even medicated and less anxious, or going to therapy for his neuroticism and depression, or whatever, he still would be quite morally grey. A lot of his manipulation, his power hunger, comes from this neuroticism; from needing to feel safe and needed, (just like Quackity.) Not all of it, though. He’d still have his unhealthy ideals about relationships and possession, for example. Less prominent, sure, but still there. Some people, I feel, discount how tied up with his mental illness it is, while others don’t really recognize that it’s also a personality problem. Like, changing those beliefs is changing part of who he fundamentally is, as a person.

Actually, I think the c!Wilbur apologist community, in general, tends to scapegoat his mental illness a little too much? Not in that we explain his actions with it or ask people not to villainize it, (although sometimes I feel that what we call villainizing mental illness is a bit excessive, but it’s not my place to talk about that as someone who doesn’t really relate to Pogtopia!Wilbur,) but in that we use it in discussions a lot. Which is fair, because it permeates every single aspect of his character, but even without it he’d have toxic traits? Like his possessiveness is not purely a byproduct of his mental illness, imo. Nor is his treatment of Fundy. It’s amplified by it, surely, but that little seed of it is there in the first place. Just as c!Dream’s abuse needs to be addressed as a central part of his character, c!Wilbur’s possessiveness does too - and also outside of the context of their mental health, because they’re both brought on by an internal personality flaw, some fucked-up belief, if that makes sense.

As I said before: c!Wilbur is a mess of a human being that I would hate if I actually met. (irl I would’ve been a SWAG supporter, based on policies, but since this is fiction, I was POG.) But because he’s a character, that flies out the window, and I can love him - not even just as a character, in the sense that I appreciate he’s well-crafted, but in terms of personality and all that shit, while recognizing he’s a kinda crappy guy. Because he’s a character. That’s the fun of it.