#can someone find me a moment in the books where Theoden's love for Eowyn feels like something substantial

[torchwood-99]

Ok, been sitting on this for a while, been trying to talk myself out of it, but here goes.

The book doesn't sell me on the love Theoden had for Eowyn.

I tried to read it and find something in his actions towards her that tell me he has proper regard, proper respect for her, that gives any weight or meaning to his love for her, but I can't find anything. He dismisses her before the entire court, doesn't consider her an heir or a proper part of his house, and has to have her virtues called out to him by other people, when she has been serving him for years.

Return Of The King sees him spout platitudes and declare her "dearer than daughter", but none of this is backed up by his general actions to her.

He loves Eowyn, fine. But he doesn't love her the way he loves Eomer, or probably loved Theodred. He doesn't love her as a fully realised being. Nor as someone to take pride in and carry on his legacy. He loves her a crutch, a tool, and something between pet and person.

He has affection for Eowyn, but his love feels more like a trivial thing, than something with any real worth or regard to it.

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

for the characters ask - what about eowyn? :)

oooooh, yessss I love me Eowyn-Dernhelm

First impression

You know, I initially didn't like her. At least in the movies. She came off a little too much of "I'm not like other girls~~~" for my tastes.

In the books, though, I always loved her because she was a stone cold bitch for 90% of the time until her personality transplant at the end.

Impression now

I still prefer book Eowyn to movie Eowyn (I personally find move Eowyn too 2D for my tastes).

I like book Eowyn for her flintiness. Strike her at the right (wrong?) angle and you'll start a forest fire. She would walk on you in a sexy way but it would also absolutely hurt. And that would be the point.

I also like book Eowyn's selfishness that runs equal to her brazenness, her fearlessness, her rage, her love. She's just as impulsive as her brother, it's simply masked more. I also really love her as a foil/mirroring to Grima - especially the mutual selfish Oath Breaking aspects of their characters. She's also just as likely to burn the world down, if for radically different reasons and done through a radically different way. I think that's a very nice, subtle touch on Tolkien's part.

The ambiguity of her gender subversion is also fun. It doesn't feel like the "~~I want to be a knight UWU I'm not like other girls UWU~~~" that a lot of characters can fall into who follow the same trope line as Eowyn. I'm so glad she escapes that and it feels more nuanced and complex.

I just love, love, love Book Eowyn's anger and recklessness and yeah. All her faults. She, like her uncle, is deeply human in a way that I appreciate.

Favorite moment

In the books - absolutely her argument/heated discussion with Aragorn before he leaves for the Paths of the Dead. Where she says that line about how when the men have died in battle and honour, women have leave to be burned in the houses the men left behind. And also that if someone tells her do her duty one more time she's going to shank a bitch (perhaps not exactly what she said, but the essence is there).

I also love the scene in the books when Theoden is like "but who will take care of Edoras while we're at Helm's Deep? My son is dead and Eomer won't listen to me if I told him to stay put. No one is left" and Hama is like, "???? Eowyn???? wtf how are you overlooking her???" And then she takes her vow/oath to stay and defend Edoras and she gets the great like about how there will be a Return of the King (to Edoras, she just means her uncle).

In the movies - I'm not sure. I suppose the scene with Grima at Theodred's deathbed is an interesting one.

Idea for a story

Same one as I did for Boromir: What if Boromir lives and Eowyn gets to shack up with him and Aragorn as the ultimate power couple? Let the woman be queen of Gondor!!

Unpopular opinion

I think movie Eowyn is a bit boring/too sad/needs way more rage in her. Be uglier! Be more insane! You're from the House of Eorl - no one in that family is normal!

In both book and movies, I don't think her relationship with Faramir is earned. And I know it's because Tolkien initially intended her for Aragorn then made a last minute change-up so there's really no building up of why they're good for each other and how it is she could possibly be happy settling for something we have been told over the course of last two books isn't what she wants.

Yeah, yeah, "she healed" or whatever and found a happier way to be after the war but it just reads as weak. Like, to me it just seems clearly shoehorned in as Tolkien absolutely pulled his punch so far as Eowyn's ending is concerned. He could have done better.

(Honestly, Aragorn has always made waaaay more sense as a partner for Eowyn than Faramir. It was such a let down to me as a kid watching the movies that they didn't end up together. I was like "whatever, Arwen has 2 minutes of screen time. Don't care. Let Aragorn get with this woman who sword fights and makes him laugh.")

I suspect my other unpopular opinion is that I don't think she and Eomer were ever very close. They do not give off vibes of siblings who confide in one another. It's clearly the sort of relationship where Eowyn is like "yeah that's my brother...I know absolutely nothing about him and vice versa. Despite his absence from my life he is still somehow overbearing and over-protective."

I mean we get that scene in the books where Eomer basically admits he doesn't know his sister at all and was always too busy to make time for her (and he regrets this).

But I know fandom likes to write them as besties.

Favorite relationship

Theoden, of course! I love her relationship with her uncle who is her veritable dad. I think it's so sweet and probably one of the most important relationships in her life. I can't imagine what she felt when he died in front of her. Like, the heart shattering and the anger and the grief and so on. It must have been a red-hot knife to the chest.

I also like her and Aragorn in the book. They have great conversations and clearly are able to push against one another yet still clearly respect and care for each other.

Favorite headcanon

(Power couple with Boromir and Aragorn)

She cut her hair when she became Dernhelm. None of this flowing locks down to her ass somehow hidden under her helmet. Do you know how much hair she would have? Absolutely not. She chopped that shit off Mulan-style. It was somewhere between chin and shoulders in the style of Rohirrim men.

----

Thank you so much for the ask! :D :D

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

What do you think Grima and Eomer are most scared of? Apart from being left alone with each other, of course :) I think Eomer is terrified of spiders - he has to ask Eowyn to remove them. Grima's fears are probably grander and more philosophical e.g. non-existence, failure, imperfection. But I bet he's terrified of weird stuff as well - exposed knees, clowns, steep stairs...

Oooooooh I love this question!! (granted I love any and all questions about these two)

[Oh god this got so long, I’m sorry but also not sorry.]

So I mean, it would depend what kind of fear we’re talking about. 

In terms of day-to-day fears/things that spook you or creep you out. I think Eomer has a REAL problem with house (mead hall?) centipedes. 

‘Too many legs, Grima. They have too many legs. I did not sign up for this.’ 

Once. when Eomer was like 10, he woke up with a house centipede on his chest and he’s never recovered. 

Grima just shoos the critter outside. Eowyn lectures her brother about their importance in the grand ecosystem. Eomer doesn’t care. 

Like when Eomer sees a house centipede all the hair on his body stands on end and he feels that cold wash of terror. I mean, if he had to, he could deal with it himself. But he’d be internally screaming the entire time. Stoic externally, of course. He is a brave rider of Rohan! But inside? Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

-

I think Grima gets creeped out by uncanny valley things. Mostly dolls. I think he assumes 90% of all dolls are cursed. One time his niece left her doll behind and Grima had to lock it in a box and hide it in a storage room and he was still a little convinced that it was going to escape and murder them all. Chucky style. 

Eomer: I want to get my sister a doll for the baby she and Faramir are about to have. How about this one? 

Grima: W h y would you traumatize a baby like that Eomer? Are you a monster? 

Eomer: This .... this is a cute doll. It’s not going to haunt them. 

Grima: You don’t know that for certain. Look at those beady eyes. Always watching. 

Eomer: Ghosts and draugr are fine but not dolls?

Grima: My undead brother might be a pain in the arse but at least I know what to expect from him. Mostly his trying to eat people. But it’s within the bounds of reason. That fucking doll on the other hand? Who knows what it thinks in the dark hours of the night. Who knows what secrets it holds in its heart. 

Eomer: . . .I think I’ll just get the kid a stuffed animal horse. 

Grima: Much better. 

I also think Grima gets easily spooked by flying insects. Like once he ascertains that the sudden movement within his line of vision isn’t going to hurt him, he’s fine. But his initial reaction is to get up and leave very quickly and let Eomer deal with it. Grima has a strong association between sudden movements and getting punched. Reasonable, really. 

Shared thing? I think Eomer and Grima both find teeth to be really creepy. 

Eowyn: They’re just bones in your mouth. It’s fine. 

Grima: MOUTH BONES??? DON’T CALL THEM THAT. 

Eowyn: Mouth! Bones! Mouth! Bones!

Eomer: I hate all of this. 

Eowyn: Mouth bonessssss! 

Eomer shows up in Osgiliath, hasn’t seen Eowyn in like two years, she gives him a hug and whispers ‘mouth bones’ into his ear just to freak him out. Because they’re loving and caring siblings like that. 

Eowyn: My daughter is just starting to get her mouth bones in.

Grima: I refuse to engage with this.

Faramir: Babe, why are you like this??

Eomer: I brought this doll for her. 

Eowyn: That is so cursed, I’m surprised Grima let you buy it. 

Eomer: I don’t know, I think it’s kind of cute. 

Eowyn: hmmmm yeah well you’re sleeping with that thing over there so I don’t know that your judgement can be trusted. 

Grima: h e y.

Faramir: What kind of family did I marry into??

/

Now, for deeper fears. 

Eomer is the one who has a deep seated fear of failure. Of not living up to the expectations set on him from a very young age. Both as son of Eomund, who is like local hero 101, and as nephew to the king. Being orphaned at a young age, I suspect he had a lot of pressure placed on him to Be the Man in the Family. To Take Care Of Everyone etc.  

And it’s hard being the son of someone who has a bit of a legend around them when they’re alive, let alone when they’re dead and so they become an impossible standard to live up to. 

This isn’t to say Eomer is a stick in the mud and doesn’t get up to mischief. This is the man who drops sick burns for a living and can be described as “compulsively truculent”. Like, Eomer at 18 was absolutely a bit of a mad lad. But, there was always this fear and anxiety hanging over him of having to live up to great expectations - most of which he’s placed on himself but he’s not aware of that. 

Later, I’ve always headcanon-ed that he does a bit of that daft thing of comparing himself to Aragorn and is like “I’m not living up to the story book legend who rules the neighbouring kingdom” and despairs. 

Eowyn: You’re doing fine. And really, Boromir and Arwen run 80% of everything. Aragorn disappears into the mountains at any given moment. 

Eomer: But what if I’m somehow failing everything at all times? Have you thought about that? That I’m failing our parents and ruining our father’s legacy and destroying our uncle’s trust in me??

Eowyn: .  . . yeah that’s not happening. You’re fine. 

Eomer: BUT AM I???

Eowyn awkwardly pats his hand, ‘You’re fine.’ Eomer despairs. 

Grima: Can’t do worse than me. 

Eowyn: Yeah! You can’t do worse than Grima. 

Eomer: That bar is so low it’s underground. 

Additional to this, I think Eomer is scared of letting things go - like giving up control in situations. Because he’s got it into his head that so long as he is in control he can keep everyone safe and no one will die (i.e. his sister). And he’s terrified of things heading down the Road of Chaos. 

Which like, Eomer, good luck with that. You live in Middle Earth and Grima’s still around being the agent of chaos that he is. 

Grima: I’ve had a thought. 

Eomer: Oh no. Put it back where you found it. 

Grima: Too late, I’ve told Eothain and he thinks it’s great. 

Eomer: Gods preserve me. 

Eothain: Ok but hear us out -- 

-

For Grima - he’s got a long of weird, existential fears. The World Ending being the biggest of them. He’s got a bit of a nihilistic, hopeless streak in him that can get quite philosophical in terms of dread. 

But for more personal, grounded fears, I think the main one is that he’s terrified of being seen. Of being vulnerable. Because if people see him/know him, surely they’ll hate him and leave him and that would hurt so, so much. Therefore, if he’s mean to everyone, including himself, then people can’t hurt him because he’s already doing their work for them to himself. 

Yet, he’s also afraid of being alone and so desperately wants to love and be loved but doesn’t know how to go about making that happen in a healthy, normal manner. So he self-sabotages. Tells himself things like, “I was not a lovable child, and I’d grown into a deeply unlovable adult. Draw a picture of my soul and it’d be a scribble with fangs.” - Gillian Flynn 

This just creates a fucked up freeze/thaw cycle of “I want to fit in and belong somewhere, but if people know me they’ll see what an ugly thing I am, better that they don’t know me, so let me shut them out/be mean to them etc., no one cares for me because I am unworthy of it, this hurts a lot, and I think fitting in and belonging would probably stop it hurting, but if people know me they’ll see what an ugly thing I am, better they don’t ... so on and so forth.” 

So yeah. His deep seated fears of being vulnerable + being along make for some twisted thinking and lots of self-sabotaging. 

Grima; What is emotional vulnerability?? Never heard of it. 

Theoden: You could give it a try, you know. 

Grima: No. I refuse. 

Grima does that thing that Carrie Fisher talks about: “Of all the violence I have known in my life, I have not known violence like the way I talk to myself.” 

/

Thank you so much for the ask! This was an absolute blast to answer. I loved every minute of it. 

I love all Grima and Eomer questions. 

<3 <3