#crowley is not lucifer

[avelera]

All meta is good meta because everyone is just here having fun, but there are obituaries for some headcanons that I read with great pleasure.

[the-meta-tron]

Crowley ISN'T Lucifer, But...

So today, Neil Gaiman basically killed The Crowley-was-Lucifer theory, which is fine. I thought the theory was fun, but to be honest, it never completely satisfied me.

The most compelling evidence (for me) regarding the theory were two things 1) we see Crowley before the fall, creating the stars and Lucifer was the Lightbringer, and 2) a lot of what Satan/Lucifer is attributed are things we see Crowley doing in the show's flashbacks.

I don't think it was wrong to recognize that the mythology of Lucifer/Satan has connections to what we see in Crowley's character. I just think it's missing some important context.

For example, Crowley is The Snake from the Garden of Eden. We know that for a fact. The Snake tempts Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and humanity falls (aka Original Sin). Satan is never mentioned in Genesis. But over time, the snake is attributed to being Satan.

That doesn't mean Crowley is Lucifer/Satan. It just means humans in the GOmens verse tend to attribute the demonic things Crowley does to Satan over time because they simplify their own history. The same can be true for enacting wrath on Job or showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world (tempter of the Gospels). Those things happen, a demon does them, and later down the line, they are conflated as being done by Satan.

Originally, the word satan just meant "adversary" or "opposer." It was a word that described any adversary to God, sometimes even humans. Over time the concept of satan evolved to Ha-Satan, aka The Adversary, the personification of all evil whom Lucifer and The Devil are often attributed to. So there's actual real-world evidence of these translations of any adversary becoming The Adversary, and anything anyone does that opposes God's plan eventually becomes attributed to Satan over time.

And since Crowley is the one on Earth doing things for most of human history, I'm sure most of the things he does get attributed to Satan in the telephone of human mistranslations and simplifications.

Basically, Crowley is the overworked employee who does all the work, and his boss gets all the credit.

But Lucifer, the angel Satan was before he fell, was Not Crowley, and I think that's important. A lot of people were pointing out that Lucifer questioned God, and Crowley asked questions so badda-bing badda-boom Crowley=Lucifer, but I think that's ignoring or simplifying a lot about Lucifer.

Lucifer didn't just question God or rebel against God. Lucifer wanted to be Above God. (Originally, the concept of Lucifer was a king of Babylon, and the concept came strongly from Sumerian mythology, but he was eventually conflated as the Devil/Satan in theology over time). The Book of Isaiah basically describes the main motivations of Lucifer:

Isaiah 14:14: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High"

The Cave of Treasures was responsible for the first and most popular proto-orthodox Christian explanation for why the angels fell. Basically, the concept of fallen angels in the Bible is dubious at best. In a lot of rabbinic Jewish literature, Satan and his satans are still angels and servants of God; they just accuse humanity of wrongdoing and punish them for sins. Christianity really developed the idea that Satan was the enemy of God, and the two of them were the figureheads of Good vs. Evil. And with Satan being conflated as Lucifer and Lucifer being conflated as a fallen angel in the Book of the Watchers and that concept of fallen angels (which in the Book of Watchers notably happened after the fall of man, the angels fell because they had sex with humans) Christianity suddenly needed to explain why all these angels became fallen in the first place BEFORE the temptation of Eve, so the Fall of Man and Original Sin was retroactively preceded by the Fall of Angels, and then they had to come up with Why They Fell.

The two biggest Sins that became popular explanations for why the Angels fell were Pride and Envy. Pride, as taken from Isaiah and attributed to Lucifer The Angel instead of Lucifer The Babylonian King, where Lucifer wanted to be above God and have divinity for himself. Envy came from the Cave of Treasures, where Satan was jealous of mankind and refused to prostrate himself before Adam. Basically, God told all the Angels that Humans were going to be the next big important thing and Most Loved by God. Lucifer got jealous because He was Most Loved by God, so he decided to overthrow God out of envy, and the reason why he tortured humans is that he still is envious of them.

So I think fundamentally, if we look at these proto-orthodox explanations of The Fall, Crowley obviously isn't Lucifer. Crowley never wanted to be God. Crowley never hated or envied humanity. He protects them. He pranks them and tempts them, sure, but without malice.

He just had questions. He was Just Some Guy Angel who wanted to make the stars and didn't understand why it had to all go kablooey in six thousand years. Heaven's institution refused to give him answers (or even let him ask his questions, based on his awe at Job conversing with God), so he went and talked to the other angels who were also disgruntled with management in Heaven but for maybe more selfish reasons (Hey Look, It's Lucifer and The Guys). And because he was unsatisfied with Heaven's system, he ended up hanging out with the wrong people, getting involved in the war, and sauntering vaguely downward. And fundamentally, Heaven is going to punish anyone who challenges the status quo. It doesn't matter why or if they had good intentions.

I kind of don't want to know what angel Crowley was before he fell. Maybe he was high-ranking, and maybe he lost his memories, but ultimately the angel he was doesn't matter anymore. The trauma of the war and the fall stripped the angel Crowley used to be and transformed him into the demon we know now. The demon he is now is the only character we need to know. It is fun to theorize, and the angel he used to be might inform the demon we see now (although I think we have most of the information we need to understand that). But the war, the fall, and his time on earth, I think, inform his character far, far more.

[enbymurderhusbands]

dear people who think crowley is lucifer,

???????????

lucifer fell and was the first to fall because he actively went against god

he did not care for her divine plan and started a war bc he wanted to be in power

crowley sauntered vaguely downwards… all he did was ask some questions… hang out with the wrong people… how tf did you get to that fucking conclusion?????????

not to undermine anyones theories (yes actually to that) but crowley Is Not lucifer and i’m 90% sure lucifer is satan? so.

[queenofthearchipelago]

I feel like generally this fandom tends to forget that Christian mythology and angelology is this massive thing that isn't cohesive when literally all belief systems are put together. Good Omens needs to be viewable and understandable to your everyday viewer. Like of course Crowley wasn't going to be Lucifer, the public generally knows (as is in the bible) that Lucifer was Satan's angel name. Honestly, if you go too deep into the lore, the higher the odds are of the theory not working out. And don't even get me started on the other half of the fandom that doesn't look into the lore at all and seems to think the book of life is some sort of storybook of everyone's life that you can edit

[iamyourdensityy]

ok what is this "Crowley is Lucifer" theory? Lucifer was literally in s1 and so was Crowley? like I'm not trying to judge I'm just.... where are some of you getting that idea?

[hg-aneh]

how embarrassing

[cillacantstudysosheshere]

If I had a nickel for all the times I have been adoring a character from a show on prime who is a depressed fallen angel obsessed with ducks I would have 2 nickels which isn't a lot but wtf how did that happen twice

[levionok]

Neil-verse goes brrrr

[vroomvroomwee]

Crowley is Lucifer

(Ok I know some of you don't believe this theory but I highly suggest you give this a quick read anyway. I tried to make it short and easy and I'll be going chronologically, from s1 all through s2)

- First, let's get this out of the way, Lucifer and Satan aren't neccesarilly the same person. Even in the show the devil that appeared in s1 has only ever been reffered to as Satan, not even once as Lucifer.

- In the bible Lucifer was the one to tempt Eve with the apple, and who do we know that does that in the show. Crowley is literally THE snake from Eden.

- An obvious one perhaps, but the red hair is also a giveaway

- In the bible Jesus was tempted by the devil for 30 days, in the show Crowley says "I showed him all the kingdoms of the world", so that's another role Lucifer has that Crowley had in the show

- It's well known (even mentioned in the Sandman) that Lucifer was the most beautiful of all angels, and our demon is played by no other than David Tennant

Now on to season 2 because there's a LOT to unpack here

- He litterally started the engine of the universe which was one of Lucifers roles

- He's the first to say "let there be light", which is pretty fucking huge since that is Gods line

- "I worked closely with upstairs on it" even in the first scene they're telling us Crowley is an angel of very very high rank

- He fell for asking questions, which is litterally what Lucifer fell for, for questioning God. This in and of itself should be a pretty big indicator. "I only ever asked questions"

- Shax: "a miracle of enourmous power only the mightiest of archangels can perform"

Crowley: "How do you know I didn't do it"

And Shax just... doesn't counter that. She looks even skeptical, as if it COULD be a possibility, unlike Uriel who says to Aziraphale don't excpect us to believe you did it. Shax litterally doesn't shut the option down which confirms Crowley has the power not only of an archangel but of the mightiest kind

- In the bookshop with Gabriel/Jim he says "I don't remember. It [gravity] seemed like a good idea when we were all talking about it"

- "You're welcome to come in, you might even spot an archangel" don't tell me this was Crowley just egging Shax on and not being sneaky

- The fact that he could sense the demons coming. "Somethings wrong""It's coming in waves", when Aziraphale couldn't. It could be a demon thing but we saw Sandalphon, an archangel of lower rank, in the first season mention "something smells evil" so obviously angels can sense demons too, they just have to be powerful enough. And keep in mind Sandalphon was already in the book shop for quite some time, Crowley sensed them even before they had arrived (he also sensed the hell hound who was some fucking miles away)

- The.fucking.folder. "You have to be a throne or dominion above" and this dude opens these clasified documents like it's nothing. If this isn't an indicator of his high position as an angel I don't know what is.

- He's worked with Saraqael, another very high ranking angel

- "I'm the only first order archangel in the room"... and the camera imediately pans to Crowley, and for anyone who's read the book and watched the show you know that rarely anything is coincidental

- When the Metatron says they can't lose another prince of heaven. This... this fucking line. So it's relatively well known that Gabriel and Lucifer are brothers, and if Gabriel is one of the princes of heaven I wonder who the other one could be. "Two princes of heaven". And the Metatrons words were very careful, he doesn't say lost as in heaven can't find him, he says it in the context that they won't be sending Gabriel to hell since they won't lose another prince to downstairs

- In the bookshop when no one can identify the Metatron he turns to Crowley who imediately recognises him. Now you have this dude, who's literally on top of the angel hierarchy and is responsible for running heaven and the connection to God themself, surrounded by archangels and a principality you spoke to face to face with just a few years ago and... none of them can tell who you are, the only one who does is the literal demon. That tells us that Crowley has not only seen him in this form, but has probably worked with the Metaron himself personally. "Always asking damn fool questions", 10 million angels and he remembers what this one particular angel was like 6000 years ago

- Crowley is also very reluctant to reveal his identity as an angel. Now if he were just an ordinary angel of no real significance he wouldn't have a problem revealing his name, but... if his name was one that's the literal representation of all evil in this world, then it is understandable he keeps it a secret, in fear he might scare Aziraphale away

- And I wanted to leave the best for last. So you remember in the book when Crowley has to sign his name to start Armaggedon, and Hastur tells him "no, your real name" after which he reluctantly writes it. Now in the book we never see him write anything, but in the show we see him write a sygil, something that looks very mich like an L. An L... A FUCKING L. And now I wonder how this theory didn't come up sooner.

(Also he can fucking stop time, like dafuq)

Edit:

- "Oh looky here it's Lucifer and the guys" we all thought he was talking about someone else, he's just refferencing things other angels have said about HIM. FUCK

- I keep seing people saying Crowleys memories were wiped because he couldn't remember Saraqael and Furfur. But I think people forget, demons lie. He's lying to make them think he's not that angel they worked with, that he's not Lucifer. (In season 1 we hear him a few times refferencing his life as an angel, so he does remember most of it)

- Also saying if the Raphael theory were true then as showrunners they would have mentioned him somewhere for those not that familiar with the bible (or don't read much fanfiction). The refferences for Crowleys past are so so vague that it would be too sudden and confusing if he were Raphael. But there is one name that everyone is familiar with, no matter who you are how old you are or where you're from, a name that needs no introduction.

Edit 2:

- Back to him being the most beautiful angel, I don't think it was ever quite explained how every single demon when they're in hell looks... awful, but Crowley doesn't. Beelzebub has the spores all over their face, Hastur the maggots and the sh-, Dagon the scales etc. But Crowley doesn't, not even when he's in hell, he's always just so, well, pretty.

- I saw a few people asking about how Lucifer started the rebellion and Crowley wouldn't do that. I think it's the same Crowley who wouldn't get stuck in traffic after creating the M25, or the same Crowley that wanted to call Aziraphale after bringing down the entire London network, "you told them you invented the spanish inquisition, and started the second world war""so the humans beat me to it that's not my fault", "so all this is your demonic work?""no, the humans thought it up themselves nothing to do with me"

- Also I think Satan's in charge of hell not Crowley the same way the Metatron's in charge of heaven and not Gabriel (and who can very easily demote angels if he so wishes)

Edit 3:

- like some of you pointed out Lucifer is also known/means Light-bringer. And Crowley was the first to say "let there be light."

- The file he opens with Muriel is Gabriels file, a class A archangel, so if he knows the password to that it means that either he's on the same level as Gabriel, or above him.

[meandtheyeehaws]

good omens in sandman??? its real now

[avelera]

I'm genuinely curious why a Lucifer!Crowley fan theory drove you up the wall? I mostly want him to be a nobody just bc I'm tired of "oOoOh the nobody is actually Somebody!!" twists, but I saw a meta yesterday that had me at least considering Crowley might be Lucifer 🤔😆

That particular theory drove me up the wall because it proliferated despite both Word of God evidence AND in-story evidence that was flat out against it. I’m all for fun headcanons but I’m just enough of a pedant that it sets my teeth on edge when a headcanon is contradicted by both the text AND the author.

- Neil flat out said that Lucifer and Satan are not separate people in the Good Omens universe. So the theory was already dead before he killed it again with this new ask.

- Crowley refers to Lucifer as a separate person. He’s not referring to himself or as being one of the “guys”, in context he’s clearly talking about a separate group and it’s needless conspiracy mongering to try to twist those words. The context was incredibly clear and it required willful blindness or perhaps unfamiliarity with English as a native language and its accompany tone to think Crowley was including himself in the group or referring to another person calling HIM Lucifer. He was clearly saying Lucifer is over THERE with the guys and I’m walking by them and then joining their table because I’m bored. Ergo he’s not Lucifer.

- Satan is a character in Good Omens! He was Adam’s father! He appeared on screen! He was voiced by Benedict Cumberbatch! I’d understand the theory if we never saw Satan or Satan’s identity and whereabouts were a mystery but they’re NOT. Crowley is not Satan! We’d know if he was Satan! We saw Satan! It was a whole big thing, the climax of Season 1! I get it if most GO fans care more about Crowley than Adam but it definitely happened in the text and on screen!

- And since Satan and Lucifer are THE SAME PERSON as is the case in the MOST popular perceptions of Satan and Lucifer if you don’t delve into truly obscure angelic and religious apocrypha, that means he’s a separate character from Crowley!

Like I get it, it’s a fun theory and a great premise for a fanfic that’s focused on Crowley but my god, this theory COULD NOT be more contradicted in the text in every which way. The conspiracy mongering to make it work is truly mind boggling. I promise you in no religious comedy intended for a broad audience is ANY author going to make Lucifer and Satan separate characters in a story based on Christian mythology with an assumption that readers will expect it. That is something you clearly lay out in the story if it’s true and people should be theory mongering around it, the fact that Pratchett and Gaiman didn’t is because it’s not true and because 99% of laymen ie, their audience, thinks of Satan and Lucifer as the same entity. It would be BAFFLING for most audiences not steeped in obscure Christian religious apocrypha to make them separate and if you did it would be clearly stated at SOME POINT, ANY POINT, IN THE TEXT.

For fuck’s sake, Crowley isn’t Lucifer! And I’m glad Neil murdered this theory dead!

[nightgoodomens]

Satan probably:

*clicks pen*

You get flies

You get an ugly face because I don’t like you

You get a rotten face because you’re a prick and if you kept your mouth shut in Heaven I wouldn’t now have to do big baddie paperwork and instead I’d still be creating cute ass stars, fucking hell

Eh who’s next

Oh

Ohhh

You get a cute lil snake on your face and you can move it wherever you want my little pretty starmaker…

*God calls*: Satan, are you taking the piss?

Satan: What?

God: You can’t make everyone ugly and give him a cute tattoo like he’s your favourite!

Satan: But he is my favourite :)

God: You’re suppose to be evil!!!

Satan: What if I give him snake eyes. See. Scary.

God: Are you going to blind him from seeing the stars?

Satan: Woah! Dude, you want my job?

God: *ends the conversation*

Satan: *adds a note: and perfect vision*

[morganaconda]

[420technoblazeit]

bugs when you lift up a rock

[gleafer]

Crowley’s Coven Ain’t Having it!

Lucifer was a dick in heaven and he gets his comeuppance! Janthony and Aziraphale get rescued by my favorite baddies.

Enjoy more nonsense!

Time and space are not a hindrance to the witches as long as there is BUSH present.

😬

I’ll leave now.

[metamatronic]

“I didn’t mean to fall. I just hung around the wrong people.”

stills under the cut: