#descendants of the tudors

[anne-the-quene]

Descendants of the Tudors

[mihrsuri]

I am imagining all the “I was there Gandalf” moments that the Tudors fandom can look back on, including the Triad reveal and the Norwich discovery. A third one that’s smaller but still significant is when DNA testing backs up the Triad reveal. Either they do a paternity test with the royal remains, or they find that the known descendants of Gregory Cromwell and the descendants of George/Owen/Pippa have a distant connection or common ancestor.

I think DNA was still relatively new in the 90s, so maybe it’s several years before they can DNA test 400-year-old skeletal remains or find common ancestors going back sixteen generations. Either way it causes another upheaval and it’s also a nice rebuttal to Restorationists and other doubters.

The Norwich discovery is pretty recent so that’s definitely a Fandom Event (of OW OW FUCK THAT GUY) - I wonder if there’s a ‘fuck that guy (derogatory)’ day on in universe tumblr. And oh gosh, The Triad Discovery. So I’ve been kind of loose on when this happens (The Tudors show in universe happens around like, right now - all the actors are in universe younger) but it’s late nineties/early 2000s plus different tech advancements. So it is by this point extremely well known and taught and also a ‘Listen I Was There When The News Broke’

(With the Triad it is like in retrospect so much makes sense - with the show people are going in knowing about it by this point but oh there’s so much I Was There about the discovery. SO MUCH)

The contents of the chest make it pretty damn clear (spoilers go here about that somewhat) but yep, the current Duchess of Essex + I think one of Owen’s descendants off the top of my head take a DNA test and yep, Related.

(Oh the trainwreck there - they basically stick their fingers in their ears and sing LALALALA CANNOT HEAR YOU - because while don’t get me wrong, they LOATHE Thomas Cromwell and will admit he was uh ‘favoured’ by Henry and have Opinions about the sullied royal bloodlines they are also deeply invested in the two current royal princes being Secretly Of The True Royal Line (and a whole other thing) and so they also refuse to believe that any King would ever be bisexual or love a commoner that much so they mostly just ignore it and huff about how corrupted by the Coarse Commoner Henry Was (in his policies! they were bros! Because Cromwell was a weasel! No homo!)

[clannfearrunt]

Entire reason I’ve made Yugi a Breton by the way

[ironwoodwizard]

"Your eyes glazed over. Are you reliving a memory?" (Oscar to Ezra; @mxrvelouscreations

Flashback Starers | @mxrvelouscreations

Hazel eyes had long been staring off into nothing. Ezra’s mind had slipped away from him, catapulting him back into the far distant past. A moment ago, he’d been showing off for Oscar, a simple show of illusory magic meant to dazzle him. Now, he was back in the royal palace in London, performing the same trick for a little girl. A princess. The only princess at the time. She was about six, and ever so delighted by his antics; she always had been, ever since she was but a babe. He regretted that he had to leave her and the court behind, but her father had ordered him off to war with France. A war that made no sense in his mind.

The next time he saw her, that girl was in her thirties, and even more of a bloody tyrant than her father had been, despite claiming that she was making an effort to undo all of the damage he had wrought. Ezra’s heart had broken when he told her that he could not serve her, and flared with rage when she’d turned her guards on him…

Oscar’s voice yanked him back to the present, and he shook his head head to clear it of the memory. “Yes,” he answered, attempting to hide his pain with a gentle smile. “I’m fine, though. Nothing too bad this time. Just…I used to entertain children with tricks like that, back during the renaissance, when mages were quite the fashionable thing to have in court. There was this one little girl who took it upon herself to challenge me to conjure up a different and more complex illusion every time I saw her.” A fond laugh came tumbling from his lips, even as he wished internally that that had been his last memory of the girl who would become known as Bloody Mary. All smiles and playful energy, no bitter prejudices.

[sunlit-music]

No judgement towards Anne Boleyn fans, but at this point I look back at my favourite Oh No They Didn't posts on Livejournal, and realise my watching Anne Boleyn scenes avidly was mainly because I like Natalie Dormer's acting and her costumes in The Tudors. Because when you think about it, Anne Boleyn's behaviour towards Catherine of Aragon is pretty yikes.

[childrenofslumber]

☾✧.° ( OPEN; EITHER TWIN ) °.✧☼

"The crown resides within me. Embedded like a knife."

[outrowingss]

Margaret Beaufort had absolutely no access to the Tower in 1483 when the princes disappeared but do you know who did? Richard

[virgil-is-a-cutie]

Tudors AU!Descendants with Chad as Henry the 8th

Mal as Catharine of Aragon

Audrey as Anne Boleyn

Jane as Jane Seymour

Lonnie as Anna of Cleves

Evie as Katheryn Howard

And I'd say Uma was Katherine Parr

Send me asks if interested

[janesemel]

Tudor Week Day 2: Favorite Female Tudor Family Member / January 1536, the autopsy of Catherine of Aragon

Ocean Vuong, On Earth We’re Briefly Gorgeous / Maria Valverde, Los Borgias / Natalie Grueninger, Catherine of Aragon’s arrival in England / Adolph Hirémy-Hirschl, The Birth of Venus / Ocean Vuong, The Last Prom Queen in Antarctica / Lucas Horenbout, Katherine of Aragon with a monkey / W.H. Auden, A Certain World: A Commonplace Book / Unknown Italian Artist, Roman Charity: Cimon and Pero / Church of Saint-Pierre, Dragon swallowing a Christian / Sylvia Plath, Three Women: A Poem for Three Voices / Maria Valverde, Los Borgias / Hilary Mantel, Wolf Hall / J Kirk Richards, Angel Descending / Anne Sexton, Mercy Street / The White Bear, Death Becomes / Gwendolyn, The Goddess Tree / Hilary Mantel, Wolf Hall / Dorothea Tanning, La Descente dans la rue (Down into the Streets) / Hilary Mantel, Wolf Hall / Saint Benedict, Regvla emblematica sancti Benedicti / Hans Bellmer, Les Jeux de la Poupée / Anne Sexton, The Sickness Unto Death / Sergei Parajanov, The Color of Pomegranates / Rainer Maria Rilke, Enlightened Heart / Chanakya / PBS, The Six Wives of Henry VIII / Tanya Marcuse, Fallen Photos / Headline, The Oredigger / Marian Wawrzeniecki, Old Truth Lies in Books / Anne Sexton, Mercy Street

[goodqueenaly]

Do you think Gaemon Palehair really was Aegon II's bastard, or that at least Aegon III believed he was?

Maybe? On a purely practical level, at least, Gaemon being the son of the future King Aegon II does not seem impossible. Aegon the Elder was certainly living in King’s Landing at the time Gaemon was conceived, and if Gaemon’s mother was herself already living in King’s Landing (and there is no indication that she and Gaemon settled in King's Landing after the latter's birth), there was a possibility of the two meeting and conceiving a son. Even if Gaemon was not necessarily that “boy [Aegon fathered] on a girl whose maidenhood [Aegon] won at auction on the Street of Silk”, according to Mushroom’s gossipy report, this alleged patronage in the sex workers of King’s Landing on Aegon’s part may provide an explanation as to how Aegon the Elder could have fathered Gaemon. Gaemon’s pale hair, of course, could easily be read as an inheritance from his father or other Targaryen antecedents: while we don’t have full details on Aegon’s appearance, GRRM’s report that Aegon bore “a strong resemblance to his father” (who himself had a “silver-gold mustache”) certainly suggests that Aegon also had the pale hair common to Valyrian descendants. Too, it may be notable that unlike the would-be king Trystane Trufyre or the Shepherd, Gaemon was pardoned and made a ward of the crown - a rare act of mercy in the twilight of Aegon II’s reign which perhaps indicates some personal investment on the part of the king in Gaemon’s well-being.

At the same time, I would not say Gaemon being Aegon II’s son is a foregone conclusion. While we should certainly consider the fact that the information came under torture, Essie’s admission that Gaemon’s biological father was a Lysene oarsman is at least a possible explanation for both Gaemon’s existence and his pale hair. Likewise, we have no indication that Aegon II thought particularly fondly of the boy; indeed, unlike with Trystane (where it was Aegon himself who knighted the would-be squire king before the latter was executed), Aegon doesn’t seem to have interacted with Gaemon at all, and the passive voice used by Gyldayn to describe Gaemon’s pardon makes it impossible to tell who directed that decision. (Too, Borros Baratheon’s rough treatment of Gaemon at the time of his capture - “carried back to the Red Keep slung over the back of a horse, chained and weeping” - hardly suggests that he knew, or had been instructed to know, that he was dealing with a king’s son.) There is in fact some real-world historical precedent from which GRRM may be drawing for showing mercy on such a figure: when young Lambert Simnel, probably about 10 years old, was proclaimed “King Edward VI” as the figurehead of a failed Yorkist rebellion against King Henry VII, the first Tudor king showed the boy mercy, not only not executing him but actually giving him a position at court (first in the royal kitchens, and eventually as a court falconer). Nor do I read Aegon III’s affection for Gaemon as indicating some secret knowledge of the latter’s supposed royal lineage: not only would Aegon III himself have had no reason to know who Gaemon’s biological father was, but Gyldayn makes it pretty explicit that Aegon’s care for Gaemon came as a direct result of the young king’s sorrow over the (supposed) loss of his own younger brother, Viserys (and to that point, Gyldayn notes that after “Prince Viserys … became King Aegon’s constant companion” following his return, “Gaemon Palehair was cast aside and forgotten”).

Ultimately, I would say the answer doesn’t really matter, both because we’ll probably never get the objective truth on the matter and because the narrative does not really dwell on the question. Gyldayn merely refers to Gaemon as “supposedly a bastard of the missing King Aegon II” and later as a “bastard born of a whore” (and specifically used the last designation to explain why Gaemon “counted for little in the court”); there is, so far as we know, no investigation into Gaemon’s paternal origins, no allusions to his paternity (as compared to, say, Alyn Velaryon, where Willis Fell openly identified him as having “a snake for a sire”), no hints by anyone save his mother as to who might have fathered him. As GRRM himself once noted, “[w]ithout blood tests or DNA, establishing paternity was a lot more hit and miss”, and I think that’s probably the case with Gaemon. Young Gaemon's potential blood connection to Aegon II matters only in the sense that his mother seized upon it (or the idea of it) to present him as a king; if he might have otherwise grown up in obscurity as one of the many lowborn children of King’s Landing, Gaemon was instead, thanks to that claim, subjected to a roller coaster of pseudo-royalty, violent upheaval, courtly semi-protection, and ultimately horrific murder.

[anne-the-quene]

Descendants of the Tudors

[mihrsuri]

Inspired by @theladyelizabeth I now keep thinking about the OT3 verse when Henry dies but also when Thomas dies and how Anne can’t actually be seen to mourn to the degree that she wants to for her husband and also when Henry dies Thomas can’t either and anyway MY EMOTIONS.

(Like they can’t even be (openly) buried together)

[racefortheironthrone]

I saw not long ago that the Duke of Norfolk is still a thing, and he's the #1 Duke outside the ones who are made up for being the King's close family, and he's a Howard descended from the guy who died at Bosworth and the Howards have been the top Catholic family in the UK for centuries. How did that work when Catholicism was illegal, and also BOTH the wives Henry VIII killed were members of that family? Why didn't Henry or a devout king take them out? Why didn't they go down with the Stuarts?

Great question!

The Howards have always had a remarkable talent for getting themselves into and out of trouble - the former because they were ambitious noblemen who aspired to high office and dynastic marriage alliances with the royal family, the latter because they were rich and powerful noblemen who were good at laying low for a while and coming up with a good plan b.

So to take Thomas Howard, his father and grandfather had gambled heavily on Richard III and lost almost everything when the Tudors came to power. However, Thomas managed to marry Anne of York, which gave the Howards a blood tie to the Tudors, and a route back into power as Lord Admiral. Highly successful military service against the Scots made Thomas an Earl and thereafter he was the Tudors' go-to military man in Ireland and France.

Then Thomas gambled again with Anne Boleyn, and when that ended disastrously, he very carefully made sure he ended up on the right side of things by presiding as judge over the trials of Anne Boleyn's "lovers." His prestige nevertheless took a hit and he had to spend some time away from court before eventually being recalled to deal with the Pilgrimage of Grace. (Notably, despite being the leader of the Catholic faction, Thomas had no problem with promoting his Protestant niece or brutally suppressing the Catholic Pilgrimage.)

After bringing down Cromwell, Thomas achieved his zenith of power by bringing about Henry's marriage to Catherine Howard. That gamble ended disastrously when Catherine's adultery was found out, leading to Thomas being exiled from court. He later found his way back into power, only to be thrown into the Tower along with his son and the rest of the Catholic faction when the Seymours came to power. And so it went.

As to the issue with Catholicism, the thing to keep in mind is the "middle way" that the English Reformation pursued. When the dust had settled between the conflict between Edwardian Calvinists and Marian Catholics or crypto-Catholics, Elizabeth I's settlement didn't quite outlaw Catholicism. Catholic "recusants," as they were known in the statues, were fined for not attending Church of England services, but a wealthy family like the Norfolks could afford to pay. Now, it wasn't exactly safe - Thomas' son Henry Howard the Earl of Surray got himself executed by Henry VIII due to his extreme political stupidity, and his son Thomas got executed for trying to overthrow Elizabeth I in favor of Mary Queen of Scots, and his son Philip died of disease in the Tower of London, where he had been jailed for being a Catholic and plotting with Jesuits, although Philip's son actually did quite well as a diplomat and courtier under James I in part because the two shared interests in collecting art.

And so it went...

[elizabethan-memes]

"Elizabeth ended the Tudor dynasty by not having any children"

Let's be real the Tudor name was doomed to extinction the moment Edward died. Elizabeth’s descendants would have been as 'Tudor' as James V. Unless the female line counts now, in which case the dynasty didn't end.

[orangerosebush]

hi there! I was wondering if I could pick your brain re: accents in the fowlverse because I adore reading your analyses and thoughts so I’m curious to see what you think! Artemis 1 and 2 I’m assuming have a Dublin accent (forgive me Irish fans I’m not familiar with Irish accents!), but what about butler and Juliet for example? And holly and opal and other fairies, while of course they can speak any language they’d like, do you think they adopt an accent that fits their language of choice, or is there a “fairy” accent they have?

Hi there! I have a few thoughts on this, though I will ask that you take them with a grain of salt due to being an American, lol.

The Irishness of the books is a subject on which people have written much more intelligently than I ever could. The first AF book was published in 2001, which I note here due to economic context. The "Celtic Tiger" refers to the rapid economic growth in Ireland from the mid-1990s to the late 2000s.

O’Leary, Eoin. “Reflecting on the ‘Celtic Tiger’: Before, during and After.” Irish Economic and Social History, vol. 38, 2011, pp. 73–88. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/24338906. Accessed 2 Aug. 2023.

During this period of economic growth (which one must note was characterized by high technology exports), there was a boom in internationally successful Irish children's and young adult fiction. These books usually harkened back to pre-colonial mythology while incorporating high-tech themes connected to economic optimism for Ireland's future.

The 2011 essay collection edited by Keith O'Sullivan and Valerie Coghlan, Irish Children’s Literature and Culture: New Perspectives on Contemporary Writing, analyzes the historical context behind these trends in youth fiction.

O’Sullivan, Keith, and Valerie Coghlan. Irish Children’s Literature and Culture: New Perspectives on Contemporary Writing. 2011. Routledge.

‌Of the Irish children's fiction and YA published from 1995-2005, Colfer's Artemis Fowl series remains one of the most internationally popular. In looking at these books' success, Patricia Kennon interrogates the particular Irishness of AF in her essay, "Contemplating Otherness Imagining the Future in Speculative Fiction".

O’Sullivan, Keith, and Valerie Coghlan. Irish Children’s Literature and Culture: New Perspectives on Contemporary Writing. 2011. Routledge.

The first book establishes some interesting elements of the Fowls' class. When describing the relationship between the Butlers and the Fowls, we learn, “The first record of this unusual arrangement was when Virgil Butler had been contracted as servant, bodyguard, and cook to Lord Hugo de Folé for one of the first great Norman crusades"; the Fowls and Butlers arrive in Ireland as Anglo-Norman conquerors.

One other note we have about the Butlers and Fowls is that: “The original Fowl castle had been built by Aodhán Fowl in the fifteenth century overlooking low-lying country on all sides.” The fifteenth century saw the reconquest of Ireland under Henry VIII; Ireland was changed from a lordship (where the island was ruled by the King of England and controlled by loyal Anglo-Norman lords between 1171-1542) to a full Kingdom. Furthermore, with this excerpt about Aodhán Fowl, we must note that the Manor was built in Dublin. During the 15th century, Dublin was located in the Pale.

From Wikimedia

The Pale was located around and in Dublin, and it was the base of English rule in Ireland following the reconquest. By the Tudor period, there was intermarriage between the Gaelic Irish aristocracy and the Anglo-Norman lords, and many of the Anglo-Normans had become "Gaelicized"; descendants of the Anglo-Norman colonists were seen as assimilated into Irish culture and increasingly less "English" by the end of the Middle Ages. These descendants were seen as the "Old English" of Ireland, in contrast to the "New English" of Ireland of the Tudor invasion. One should note that in the case of the Pale, it remained subject to the English king during the 15th century when other parts of Ireland were predominantly under the rule of native Irish lords or Anglo-Irish lords (who, in theory, answered to the king). One should also note that the Pale was comprised of Old English merchants who were loyal to England. Thus, there is a specificity to the time in which Aodhán Fowl lived and built the Manor.

Based on the aforementioned bits of lore and historical context, we have to understand the Fowls as having their wealth and power tied to the class position they enjoyed historically due to being descendants of Anglo-Norman invaders, as well as being "Old English" during the reconquest. The Fowls are undoubtedly Irish -- Colfer positions Artemis and his family as nothing but -- yet they hold the power they do as a result of having at one point been Anglo-Norman (whose descendants "Gaelicized").

As such, IMO the Fowls wouldn't have a location-based accent per se, but rather an education-based accent that is posh, RP-style with a tinge of Dublin. FWIW, some Dublin accents already are received as posh, like the D4 accent. With the Butlers, I think that they'd have a similar accent to the Fowls due to being of a similar class. However, their training would likely lend them the ability to affect an accent that is "local" to wherever they are stationed.

Honestly, I have no idea on accents for the People! I would assume that there is a "Haven" accent, though when it comes to the gift of tongues, I am open to ideas as to how that would affect speech.

Also, I would love to hear any thoughts/additions you may have :)!

[calisources]

THE TUDORS SENTENCE QUOTE STARTERS. starters and quotes taken from the showtime's the tudors acrross all four seasons. change pronouns, titles, names as you see fit.

You think you know a story, but you only know how it ends.

To get to the heart of the story, you have to go back to the beginning.

If the lion knows its own strength, no man could control it.

Seduce me. Write letters to me. And poems, I love poems. Ravish me with your words. Seduce me.

I know what you are trying to do, but do not think to take the King away from me. Let him play with you. Let him give you gifts.

But he cannot give you his true heart... for *I* have that in my keeping.

The King commands that you surrender this whole matter into his hands. Otherwise, the court will condemn you.

I am surprised to receive such a request from such a wise and noble man as you. I am but a poor woman, lacking in both wit and understanding. How am I supposed to respond to such a request made to me out of the blue?

You know perfectly well what the King desires and what he shall have.

You hate him like a scorpion. And why? Because he would not satisfy your ambition.

My only satisfaction is that in frustrating you, I hasten your fall from the King's good graces... an outcome I desire above all others.

You can't have 3 people in a marriage!

I have no heir. The Tudor Dynasty, all my father's work, finished, and it's MY fault!

I have no friend here, and little counsel.

I call to God and all the world to witness that I have been to you a true, humble, and obedient wife, ever comfortable to your will and pleasure. 

 But when you had me at first, I take God as my judge! I was a true maid, without touch of man! And whether or not it be true, I put it to your conscience.

If she gets her way, she will set our whole country in a roar.

You've taken her honor!

Tell me, do you prefer your place in this life rather than in heaven?

 He will tire of you, like all the others.

They say all his liaisons are soon over. He blows hot, he blows cold.

If I cannot please the King, will he kill me?

I am a direct descendant of Edward II. This is MY crown!

What would a silly girl like you have to say to a king?

I have an audience with His Majesty.

Just because your nephew's the King of Spain. Does he think I have nothing better to do?

Since when are you a diplomat?

I am my father's daughter.

You are my WIFE. You are not my Minister, you are not my Chancellor, but my wife.

Things are not well between us. His Majesty and I.

But... I saw with my own eyes how attentive he is to you. He looks at you with such devotion, it seems. With such love.

 I fear that is for your benefit. Henry is a good masquer. I think sometimes that he will ask me for a divorce.

Of course I loved her. But... from a distance.

Listen to me. I tell you, if you were my daughter, I'd slam your head against the wall 'til it was as soft as a boiled apple.

So as long as I live, I shall never forgive myself.

I'm disappointed because you are not yet with child.

Though I love Your Majesty and I'm loyal to you, in every way, I cannot disguise my distress and unhappiness.

 An important question, whether it is better for a king to be feared or loved.

Princes are different from others - are not easily understood, gentlemen.

I will not give up what is rightfully mine to a woman who is the scandal of Christendom!

How dare you speak to me like that?