#dragontorch

[singleactionjack]

Just some MH theory shit but

(MH WILDS SPOILERS)

Anybody feeling like the Dragontorch is probably an even bigger monster that we haven't been fully privy to? Like, it feels like a reasonable approach to handle the lore and plot that has been built up so far. Hear me out. I'm calling this the Wyrm Mother theory

So on the one hand, we have Zoh Shia (and the black dragons in the greater MH lore). Zoh seems to be an artificial black dragon made by Wyveria as a tool of war/protection? I feel a lot of fans have looked at Zoh as both a canonization of the Equal Dragon Weapon from the old MH concept art book as well as implicit justification of Fatalis' role in the series.

Fatalis' in some flavor text is said to hate humanity, showing a level of intelligence and hostility to humans unseen in other monsters. It's nature and local is as shrouded as the ancient civilization that has been lost to time. It's such a dangerous creature that killing it doesn't kill it; that crafting gear from it risks you turning into one, or weapons continuing to grow and regenerate.

Something a lot of us have thought is that the ancient civilization lore from the art books is why Fatalis seems to hate humanity; that they committed acts of atrocity on monsterkind. The scrapped lore seemed to suggest mankind slaughtered countless dragons to build their towers into the heavens. The EDW being an idea of them even turning corpses of dragons into living weapons that they had control over.

Fast forward to Modern Day, Zoh Shia (and the other guardians) seem to be a clear reimagining of these concepts. Guardians are sterile, artificial monsters that exist to protect Wyveria, even long after Wyveria fell. A textual affront to nature, creatures with no reproduction systems and underdeveloped organs who exist as tools for mankind. Monster Hunter as a series has strayed from high fantasy since its beginning, and the idea that a powerful dragon would be disgusted by affronts to nature like that seems like a reasonable justification. Especially Zoh Shia.

Zoh Shia seems to be even more of an affront that the other guardians. Where the others appear to be flat recreations of preexisting monsters, Zoh seems to be a contained amalgamation of the anatomy and abilities of several black dragons. It visually has moves from SafiJiva, Alatreon, Shara Ishvalda and Gaismagorm. But it also has directly ripped abilities from all 3 known Fatalis subspecies, having Fatalis' fire breath, Crimson Fatalis' leaping lava, and White Fatalis' dragon lighting. It seems to be a sort of Swiss army elder that imitates Fatalis, even sharing similar body parts (like eyes). They say that Wyveria fell, not from the impending threat of war, but from their own creation.

BUT

On the other hand, all of the guardians and Zoh Shia are connected by one factor. A factor that seems to reach throughout the entire region.

Wyvern Milk ( or Wylk) is present in some form throughout basically the entire gameworld. Springing up and crystalizing in places all over. In the end of the low rank story, you find out that the Dragontorch, this source of seemingly endless energy, rests beneath Wyveria, and it feeds energy (and wylk) throughout the entire region. Their cycle of seasons, thriving ecosystems, all of it, are all directly fueled by the Dragontorch.

Why does that matter? I'm convinced we may be in store for an even bigger threat in Wyveria.

Recently I saw someone on YouTube point out the oddness of the titles you unlock from beating 20 Zoh Shia:

Specifically, it unlocks Savior, Promise, and Innocent. While Savior makes sense with what we have so far (possibly being the Savior of Wyveria by design), Promise and Innocent seem strange. Promise to who? And innocence, how? The story so far seems to suggest Zoh Shia was syphoning off energy from the Dragontorch, which was negatively effecting the lands around. How is that innocent?

My first thought is...when else is it natural to drink the milk? When you are an innocent child drinking from your mother.

I looked at the games Logo, and noticed some potential symbolism:

The logo shows 6 dragons, four in circles on the side, but two wrapped around each other in the middle. Notably, one is white and solid, while the other is sort of hollow and drawn with only outlines, with its mouth closed. All are connected with solid white to the two center dragons.

I think that the four side dragons represent the cycles of the four main biomes, Desert, Jungle, Tundra, and Volcano, with their circles of life reflected in wrapping circular dragons. Drawing something (I think Wylk) from the dragons at the center. But the two dragons in the center I think are more important.

I think they represent the guardians (and more specifically Zoh Shia) and the Dragontorch. The all white dragon, mouth open, reflects the guardians, specifically Zoh and Arkveld, intertwined with Wylk but opening their mouths to return to what nature intended (To eat for Arkveld, to bellow it's flame for Zoh, and to behave as monsters do for the rest of the guardians).

In contrast, the hollow dragon facing downward represents the Dragontorch, pointed deep below the land. It's essence milked dry into the nearby lands, leaving it empty. But this begs another question: why would it be depicted as a dragon?

I think the game may be building up to a reveal that the Dragontorch is the true atrocity that led to Wyveria's destruction, to Fatalis' hatred of humanity. I think the Dragontorch may be an actual dragon, likely an elder dragon (or black dragon of its own), that was somehow confined by the ancient civilization and syphoned off of to create the infrastructure and resources that Wyveria used to grow in power.

The true reimagining of the ancient civilization concepts, whose entire land rests and thrives on the exploitation of an elder dragon, guarded by facsimiles of nature, destined to destroy themselves in hubris. This is where Zoh Shia comes in again.

The game says Zoh was Wyveria's secret weapon in case of war, but that it brought them to the brink of destruction. And after this calamity, it nestled itself into the Dragontorch to "syphon" energy, leading to chaos in the present. But perhaps that's not what it's doing? What if it's not malicious?

What if, in the Wylk, in this lifeblood, it (along side other guardians) Zoh Shia was being given it's agency back? Just as Arkveld gained it's predation back, and as all other guardians seem to fight each other if through instinct? What if Zoh was given it's agency and it fought back against Wyveria?

Or even more compelling, what if it brought the kingdom down to protect something? What if, this "promise" was to protect the Dragontorch?

I think the team making it Wyvern "Milk" and not essence or blood is intentional. Maybe, upon it's creation, as an artificial black dragon, unstable and chaotic, it was steeped in Wylk, and became aware? A beast now seeing itself be used by mankind, sure, but also seeing how they use the Dragontorch as well. And it fights back, returning to the Dragontorch.

I think perhaps Zoh wasn't drawing power away from the Dragontorch, but instead was consolidating it's power, keeping it present and concentrated. Perhaps the Dragontorch isn't endless, perhaps it is like Fatalis, able to regenerate slowly over time. And Zoh doing what it did prevented the Forbidden Lands from draining the Dragontorch completely.

Maybe that's Zoh's "promise". And its innocence is like any other's; trying to protect its mother. A mother powerful enough to power an entire nation, it resting on her back, but not powerful enough to free herself from bondage. It brought down a kingdom in its hubris, returned to the Dragontorch.

In the same way Arkveld was an extinct species, brought back to life as a puppet who cut their own strings, removed their own chains.

Zoh Shia was a black dragon, made in the image of mankind's devils. Then, it was coddled, fed on mother's milk, dressed in white. It went to stop those hurting its mother, and when done?

It returned, nestled in Wylk. Cradled in it's mother's arms, promising to protect it from mankind. Devil no more, mommy's little angel draped in white wings.

[soupwave]

hi marvel rivals fandom.

[paintypotato]

Heh, Johnny Storm × Lin Lie, my loves

[sina-man]

What if Brachydios was originally a guardian monster that just like Guardian Arkveld went through a process of naturalizing itself in wilderness. With mold being the possible factor that caused them to be able to become feral. It's origins as guardian would explain how overly weaponized it is or how it looks odd in it's own habitat.

[balis77]

Alma: Wow hunter, you managed to kill Zoh Shia. You know, when I think about it, it is a little weird you were able to singlehandedly kill a monster that destroyed an entire civilization, but it doesn't matter now. It's an unnatural creature they only made a single one of, so the threat of Zoh Shia is gone for good!

Zoh Shia, regenerating its entire fucking body for round 2:

[tallgreenlady]

@junoniadoesart I've found two problems with the proposed Dragontorch race, boss.

until they let us fight [redacted] again, presumably in an upcoming update, the Dragontorch appears to be inaccessible outside of the storyline. This is the lowest point on the map accessible in normal gameplay at the moment.

2) the Oilwell Basin is NOT ACTUALLY connected to the Iceshard Cliffs! It's a fast travel point!

Functionally, the Wilds map is two maps - the Windward Plains, Scarlet Forest, and Oilwell Basin; and the Iceshard Cliffs, Ruins of Wyveria, and Suja.

[cypress-punk]

Monster Hunter Wilds Spoilers ahead:

The Guardians are a really interesting concept to have added to the world of monster hunter. The idea of an artifical or engineered monster has been around for a long time, the first game's art book had the unused concept of the Equal Dragon Weapon which was a Frankenstein's monster stitched together from various dead monsters, and there's some old lore about ancient civilizations with incredible technology all over MH, some of which include elements about being able to control monsters in some way. Now that we've seen the ruins of Wyveria and the Guardians we have a canon picture of what that world was like.

The Guardians do raise a number of questions though, questions that I doubt we'll get strong answers on since MH storytelling has always been a little patchy. We might get some comments in the Wilds art book or something but nothing huge.

The first question and the biggest is this: the Wyverians are stated to have created the Guardians in response to some kind of threat, and that led them to their demise because eventually they built Zoh Shia who seems to have destroyed them somehow. Its unclear what exactly it did. The Wyverians were a post scarcity society with a perpetual motion device in the form of the Dragon Torch. They could engineer entire ecosystems and weather systems. Portions of their capital floated in the air weightlessly. So the question is, WHAT THE FUCK COULD THREATEN THAT KIND OF SOCIETY? Who or what scared them so bad they tried to engineer something like Zoh Shia??? Were there other hyper advanced societies with insane weapons they had to contend with? Or was it threats from natural sources? Was being Wyveria basically a way to make yourself Fatalis bait? Did the Wylk attract elder dragons hungry for the raw energy it could provide them? We know powerful networks of raw energy can form naturally in MH since one was nurturing Xeno'Jivah in World. Maybe there are whole classes of Elder Dragon that smelled the Dragontorch on the wind and went wild. When you consider that Alatreon and Fatalis are basically living nuclear weapons its easy to see why even the Wyverians would fear the Black Dragons or their close cousins. But still i want to know what they were trying to hold off with the Guardians.

A second question that the Guardians raise for me is this: where are the chimeras?. All of the Guardians except Zoh Shia appear to be modified clones of existing monsters. Rathalos, Doshaguma, Odagaron, Seikrets, Anjanath. They're all just an existing monster altered to live off Wylk and follow whatever commands the Wyverians gave them. The only exceptions are Arkveld, who appears to have been extinct even in the time of the Wyverians if I'm understanding the dialogue properly, and was then revived used Guardian technology, a process that seems to have been less successful than with extant monsters given that Guardian Arkveld began to follow its instincts to act as a predator and was able to reproduce, two things we're told normal Guardians do not do. So basically they Wyverians Jurrasic Parked themselves on that one. Zoh Shia is the big outlier of the group, because even though Arkveld was flawed he was still a copy of a real animal. Zoh Shia appears to be the only chimera, and its a hell of a chimera. It seems that the Wyverians took Gore Magala/Shagaru Magala as a base and tried to build a Black Dragon on top of that base, producing something that seems to be more Wylk than meat and possessing insane destructive power, you can see Fatalis and Alatreon in its movements very intentionally. So was Zoh Shia their only Chimera? Did they start trying to engineer entirely new monsters with this walking atom bomb or did they make smaller ones first? I really want to see more fucked up Wylk chimeras that were prototypes of this thing.

[iamthekaijuking]

Theory on Wyvern Milk and the Dragontorch

I’m just gonna cut to the chase, I think the dragontorch and the landspine is primarily an oil refinement and distribution system.

We know wyveria sits on a big oil deposit. One so big it literally bubbles up in the basin. So wyveria is in no shortage of oil.

Wylk itself is combustible, can solidify into clumpy masses, and it can be inferred that it’s an organic substance since it’s produced by an organism and absorbed by others.

Oil is famously combustible, we all know this. And it’s an organic substance since it’s formed from dead microbes (and because of this some studies have posited that oil might actually be renewable). Oil can also solidify, and we use this for various things such as road construction. Literal oil pucks are something that was invented not too long ago.

So I’m thinking wyvern milk is crude oil that the dragontorch pumps something into to give it the white coloration and elemental properties. Possibly bioenergy, which I personally theorize is a supersugar produced by microbes in the soil of volcanic environments that has components of dragon energy. We can infer Wyveria sits on top of volcanic caverns thanks again to the basin, so they’re probably not running out of bioenergy if the dragontorch can’t produce some itself.

[elendsessor]

weird nitpick idk if i’m insane for having but while i don’t mind how the update model exists (since it does feel fitting ngl), i wish capcom didn’t announce every monster that gets into an update. have a face for the title update sure, but if they have to talk about another monster, maybe just have it be “you may encounter a new foe.” keep it vague.

rise kinda did this with the surprise bazelgeuse during one of the updates. seriously nothing more chilling than seeing a ? on the map and running up only to learn it’s the living bomber jet himself. people went fucking insane when that happened.

zoh shia being huntable for more than one quest was kinda expected but how much cooler would it have been if they didn’t say anything. then on the day of release you get a notification during inclemency that a strange being has appeared at the dragontorch, you open the map, and boom you see zoh shia again. and you realize the last resort weapon that destroyed wyveria is capable of coming back. that maybe the dragontorch already recorded its dna and started making copies all because of how long the story one lingered.

idk to me that beats “by the way zoh shia is back in the new update and you can make armor out of it see look guys” and even straight up spoiling how it shows up.

[mayonnaise-b]

Some references for an even more swole Olivia…

Perhaps Olivia starting to realize how bulky she’s gotten and is mixed. Perhaps of eating food affected from the DragonTorch as all the nutrition is causing her to bulk up when combined with her strenuous activities.

I finally have time to draw this idea! I don't usually draw really buff women that much but Olivia made me want to draw her like this more😭🥺

[shitpost-chef]

Okay, Monster Hunter rant time. And spoilers for Wilds’ story if you somehow haven’t played it.

So at this point, it’s pretty much undeniable that Zoh Shia is, or at least at one point was, the Equal Dragon Weapon. It’s also undeniable that it has Black Dragon cells within it, most likely that of the Fatalis that took down the Ancient Civilization.

But what I want to discuss is the way we discover it: slumbering within the Dragontorch, absorbing power from the Wylk around it. Doesn’t this sound vaguely familiar? It should, because this whole situation closely parallels Xeno Jiiva, who was luring Elder Dragona to it to feed off their energy.

Between the above and the story of the founding of the Hunter’s Guild (the Azure Star), I can’t help but wonder how many times one of those extraterrestrial Psuedo-Elder Dragons have touched down over the course of history, especially since we’ve seen a Safi Jiiva, the matured version of Xeno Jiiva. Could experiencing one of those have inspired the creation and usage of the Wylk?

And how about Zoh Shia’s return? It doesn’t come back in its crystalline form at first; it comes back in its fully corrupted form. Does that mean that the Fatalis’ Black Dragon cells are absorbing the Wylk too? And does it coming back again render it a White Fatalis? And where do Dire Miralis and Alatreon fit in here? Do all Black Dragons possess the ability to regenerate from mere cells?

I love lore speculation.

[dire-miralis]

Interesting, and possible, considering at this time we know nothing.

My own theory is kinda uh, wack, because i have no idea what answer would satisfy me in all of this, but here it is anyway:

I think the Dragontorch and Landspine itself are somewhat repulsive to elders, considering that even after a thousand years of it being left to decay, we're only seeing a Hint of their slow return (Gore). But there's no way the original sources of wyvern milk were lifeless before Wyveria came, everything has an ecosystem attached to it, and every ecosystem has dragons, especially when considering the similarities between the land spine and the Everstream, and especially especially considering this war is likely the Great Dragon War, aka: Dragons were more common before that. I think that, during the war, Wyveria bumped into Something within the very core of their power source, within what they saw as Their fortress. They rushed an attempt to create a construct which would for sure see to its end, failed and ended up with an unstable, hazardous mass of stem cells with destructive impulses, and in the messy process of lulling Zoh Shia back to sleep, they awoke That Other Thing which may have a much greater influence on wylk, not only attacking, but causing a region-wide catastrophe by its disturbance on the landspine.

One of the titles you get from Zoh Shia is "Innocent". It's clear the Fatalis traits were not a red herring, but i strongly believe it's horrible fallen angel looks are deceiving, and yet telling of the guardians's struggle, and we are told further so by its parts and equipment descriptions. The crystal shell constricts it, within, its mass swells and writhes, it yearns for destruction and punishment but is aimless in doing so, merely an error of the creators, which deluded themselves into the idea they could create a pristine, unbreachable paradise of light, meanwhile they were digging themselves ever deeper into a pale limbo.

[mossy-green-aka-ferrythem]

Beat Wilds's main campaign

Spoilers under cut

Absolutely fucking fantastic game really.

A lot of the new monsters are faves of mine.

The storytelling is alright but the setting and worldbuilding are top notch.

Also the story is probably one of the best to ever be put into a Monster Hunter game, and delivers on a lot of unique themes and messaging you don't see much anywhere else.

Also I kind of love how the ecosystem works. The super civilization's old bio-machines are still causing a cycle of life to propagate. The Dragontorch is exceptionally important to the whole Eastlands.

I hope they dub it as the Eastlands from now on. Now that the stigma is gone, and all the people of the lands, with the Guild and the people living in the Eastlands, all understanding and coming to terms with the past of Wyveria and what happened, it feels like that stigma is gone. Zoa Shia, an artificial lifeform likely repurposing genetic info from Fatalis (honestly I wasn't too big on Zoa Shia. On one hand I like it quite a bit but it's only a small step above Xeno'Jiiva in terms of final bosses, and that doesn't say a lot. Narwa was more fun #tbh).

Anyways yeah. This region should be called the Eastlands from now on. Kind of wish they did a similar thing with the "New World" in MHW, because the "New World" has that colonialist stench to it, and while MHW tries to set itself apart from such things and is... successful to an extent, it's still a bad name in my opinion.

Anyways enough about name rants. Let's look at the Eastlands Ecology!

What a loaded monster roster! New monsters are great!

Arkveld is a new favorite flagship. Monster Hunter flagships tend to be the best in general though. But god damn. Arkveld is truly special to me...

Rompopolo is just. Warms my heart, the little oilsnipe!

Ajarakan is awesome. I hope Rajang doesn't come back to be honest to keep fights like Ajarakan feeling fresh! In fact the team behind Wilds clearly intend to keep it fresh themselves!

The Guardians were a surprise, but they grow on me. A good subversion really!

Xu Wu is a welcome surprise (which I immediately learned about because I looked up the roster when the game released lmfao)

The more Cephalopods the merrier!

Really the new classification is perfect. Monster Hunter fucking NEEDED more diversity like that! They already do a pretty good job but we need more unusual fights! Cephalopods and Temnocerans are consistent favorites of mine!

The aerial leviathans in the Iceshard Cliffs were amazing. Love Hirabami. Also just pleasantly surprised with the Iceshard Cliffs. Only really appreciated them at the end of the game though. Can only really see them for what they are in the Plenty. Now that The Plenty has come to the Cliffs, wow. What a locale. I can't help but fear the possibility of it being underutilized though.

You know what this game needs?

BARIOTH!!!! BEST ICE MONSTER NEVER MISSING A GAME HELL YEAH 🔥🔥🔥

*ahem* anyways...

Wilds probably has one of the best new monster lineups ever. Like wow.

Uth Duna in the story got the short end of the stick though.

Speaking of Apexes, Jin Dahaad, while a fantastic monster, had a pretty disappointing story fight to me.

The fun with a monster that big is the idea of it organically wandering around the locale. Having preset arenas as the first impression sorta took that feeling away from me.

Fun fight but it's a tad too similar to Safi in some ways. Especially that fucking arena sweep attack it does.

The boulders, and the fact that you have to hide behind them, are not clear at all. Like damn. I'm sure I'll like him way more in High Rank though.

Also Rey Dau FUCKS.

One of the best monsters ever easily.

Anyways I can keep prattling on and on here but to put it simply...

Monster Hunter is a series that means a lot to me, started with World, fell in love with Rise, and now this game comes to surprise me in shocking and subtle ways...

I love Monster Hunter so much.

[scorpionglaive]

Looking back at the cutscene where they were trying to decide to use Nata's pendant or not, it's pretty damn clear the hunter made up their mind about slaying Zoh Shia long before they got down to the Dragontorch itself to use the pendant. For blog canon I know Grimbright certainly did, especially after that shared glance with the Allhearken. Everyone fighting over whether or not to stop the Dragontorch and disrupt the ecosystem vs saving the people and he's silent almost the entire time mapping out a game plan to slay Zoh Shia and how to make sure Alma and co aren't dragged down with him if the Guild disapproves.

[singleactionjack]

I've done the Zoh Shia rematch a few times now and I have to say, something is bothering me about it because it's the first time (to my knowledge) that you're distinctly fighting the /same/ monster you fought and slayed before.

The group huddle before you can fight it is strange because it comes across like "Huh, I think it's back??" And you go down there into the Dragontorch area and you get that freaky ass cutscene where it's like you left it, all mutated and misshapen but SEALED BACK UP IN THE WYLK???

And then there are all these Wylk blossoms (???) that break open, black ooze pouring out of them. The casing around the creature breaks and it sloughs to the ground, the ooze seeping into the creature like symbiote tendrils??? But then the Wylk armor rebuilds itself and it begins fully standing again, which gives me so many questions

Like, the people say it survived like talking about Cell from DBZ or something. The damned thing's corpse was just left there from the last hunt and it was still moving! It's the only fight where severing the tail shows the tail still pulsating and moving. This thing may just not be able to die if any of it is left???

The cutscene seems to suggest it's just still down there, but how is it being put back inside? What else is down there??? Is the Wylk as much a part of it as it is an outside force?

[space-wizards]

Monster Hunter Wilds story connection that's been rattling around in my brain this whole time (spoilers):

Zoh Shia was protecting the Forbidden Lands on accident. It's a weird clone of Fatalis, the Elder Dragon that famously drives away or kills everything in its territory. It's sitting in the Dragontorch, suffusing the wylk with its presence. Any monster that can detect Elder Dragons thought the Forbidden Lands was Fatalis Territory and steered clear, until we killed it.

It explains why there's so few Old World monsters (aka games 1-4) until High Rank, and zero Flying Wyverns except for Rey Dau, who lives on the edge of the Forbidden Lands. Everything in the Old World, particularly flyers, probably needs to detect Elder Dragons or die.

I'm betting all of the monsters that run from Fatalis are the ones that fuck up villages and make Hunter Weapons necessary in the Old World. You can survive occasional rowdy Doshaguma or Ajarakan without fighting back, but Rathalos or an Elder Dragon? no way. Case in point, a random Guardian Rathalos is completely wrecking Sild without our timely intervention.

It also explains why Gore Magala shows up so quickly. Shagarus will suppress any molting Gores in their territory, so Gores aggressively need to claim new territory to evolve. The sudden appearance of a no-Elder zone means it's time to pounce.

(disconnected from the above: there's no way Monster Hunter Stories is canon to the main games, if Guild members are confused on why people would make Guardians.)