#esp when depicting someone with darker skin

[voidsaber]

#3 you can (not) redo

[dreamhot]

hey i was just wondering if you could clarify what the whole discourse was about the horror fanart because i saw some fanart that had nearly 10k likes on twitter and everyone likes it and i saw horror fanart on here that people were thirsting over? which is fine im just getting a bit confused as to what classifies as the discourse because the one on twitter had positive comments so i got very confused

i saw it on the main dream fanart tag and it was genuinely terrifying art thats kind of making me upset (i dont know if its irrational but im kind of getting anxious about it) and im not sure if thats what people were talking about

okay so . this is where the argument has run into issues, because i believe either side is approaching the situation through a different lens. on one hand you have the horror artists, who are completely within their rights to interpret the material as they see fit for their work. i'm not here to say that they shouldn't draw horror art - personally i enjoy a lot of darker work! - but there is a huge issue with not tagging things properly, which understandably causes a lot of upset. additionally, the dreamfanart tag is LOADED with the creepy art rn, presumably as a sort of response to the backlash. thus, the other end has issues with the lack of tagging (both in terms of horror and the rp/dsmp clarification). this seems mostly objective

personal grievances under the cut

one criticism that i agree with (but others have mixed feelings on) is the concept of what makes good character design. obviously we're working with mc skins, and dream's in particular is ... well, you know what it's like. it's why we have so many varied c!dream designs - which is cool as hell! but some of the horror art has scrapped all recognisable features in favour of just making ... a spooky looking guy. no mask, no smile, no... green? idk. just, if you look at a piece of art and can't identify who it's supposed to be, how successful is the design? it's not like you have to go along with fanon, but typically character fanart based upon a piece of media relies upon Some sort of identifiable feature to make the viewer say 'ah yes! this is [x]'. is it a crime to create a design that couldn't be identified as c!dream by any metric? no, but i do have to wonder what the intention is in making him look like that, esp when every other character ... looks about how you'd expect

outside of that, though, the biggest problem arises for me personally when the art errs away from simply unsettling and into almost predatory tones. the people who make c!tommy look like a child and c!dream as some huge, looming monster. the people who push the 'c!dream is obsessed solely with c!tommy in an unhealthy way' narrative. it's all too tadca-adjacent for my tastes, deliberate or not, and the people saying 'well it's a YOU problem for making that association' are being deliberately obtuse. someone else said it better than me before, but once you've been exposed to that group, it's hard not to see this sort of content as a dogwhistle. and it think, consequently, it's not unfair to be unsettled by this style of art ... especially when people are pushing the bounds of the story in order to act like their depictions are canon compliant

[lotuslate]

Hey previous anon just wanted to say I appreciate your thoughtful response. I think your analysis for Yushi Huang makes a lot of sense. For Xie Lian, I've always had the opinion that his story is about coming from extreme wealth and privilege, including fitting the ancient Chinese noble beauty standards of being extremely pale, so it would make sense that his long journey would change many thing about him including going from training in Palace walls to having a perpetual tan, but I do think his privilege as being Han is a pretty strong implied theme so darker skin for him especially should be studied in the way Han Chinese typically tan. I think the extremely powdered in white and SPF 100+ depictions of actors in dramas and official art are really harmful, so I'm happy with attempts at skin tone diversity just as long as it's based on how Chinese people actually tend to look (this includes the over 50 ethnic groups in China btw). It's sad that even five or ten years ago it wasn't this bad and many mainstream dramas and movies had a variety of naturally occurring skin tones. Now drama even palewash characters books describe as having a healthy tan or being the color of wheat and make them the color of snow instead

Oh I see!! I definitely agree, you bring up a very interesting point about his character growth and how being Han pretty is actually an integral part of it, I will keep that in mind next time I draw him because you're right, his features should reflect someone who was, what was considered, of noble beauty standards. But yes I have noticed this very harmful trend across dramas and movies but also manhwas,, of course it's not my place to speak on such issues but it is something that everyone should definitely be aware of and research on ways that don't perpetuate them further, esp as a white person in a fandom space meant for POC, it is my job to be mindful and careful in the ways I interact with the media and other fans.

These are all things I try to keep in mind always, of course there might be times when I'm not always the best/correct in my interpretations of the characters, in which case I always welcome commentary and discussion. I am perpetually interested in how other people view certain characters and situations because I know that my own point of view is simply not enough or even flawed in certain cases, but also! because I treasure being introduced to concepts that I might have not have even been aware of, as a white person. So I really appreciate you sharing your opinions with me, because this is certainly stuff I will be keeping in mind from now on when drawing!

[1eos]

I didn’t say that to excuse racism. I hold hoshino fully accountable and understand what you’re saying. I’m just saying that the noah are dead, they’re inhuman. and their skin tone is an ashy grey. when they’re in their human form they’re pale/white just like the protags they fight (only fan coloring and the newest season make them darkskinned/humane tan). the noah are the only undead characters, and all the undead characters are an inhumane color. hoshino is definitely at fault for not adding more protags/innocence users of color. I agree with you and think if she did that, then all the noah being grey/darker wouldn’t be as bad or send such a message. It’s a major flaw and valid criticism. I’m just saying that i can see a reason why the noah, the only inhuman beings in the entire manga (sans the akuma they create) are grey.

you say u didnt say it to excuse racism but u did nd u still are. like im telling u deadass that its offensive to have dark skinned characters that are villains nd ‘enemies to god’ nd ure telling me that theyre undead. there are pale zombies tho? the skin tone of the noahs isnt inhumane unless ure saying black ppl arent human

like this isnt an inhumane color esp when u compare THAT CHARACTERS THAT ARE ALIVE ND DEPICTED TO BE BLACK IN OTHER PIECES OF MEDIA ARE LITERALLY THE SAME FUCKING COLOR

like are u trying to dig your grave deeper? you say that the noahs start out pale nd magically turn black bc theyre dead when there have been millions of depictions of the undead where they are discolored but not fucking black. do you think im stupid? if they were pale nd then died then why dont they look like this instead?

you say its a flaw nd that its valid criticism to cover your ass but literally everything else ure saying is justifying the racism? what’s not clicking?

WHAT’S

NOT 

CLICKING

you can’t just say u agree when someone points out racism to pat yourself on the back nd then write essays on why the racism makes sense in the story. ik you’re not listening to what i am saying but i’m gonna say it again. it is RACIST to have your villains that are LITERALLY equated to EVIL in the eyes of the INNOCENT GOD-ALIGNED AND PALE protagonists. it doesnt matter what your intentions are or if it ‘makes sense’ in the plot. it takes 0 fucking effort to make the ‘good guys’ come in a variety of shades. the noahs are not an inhumane color. they look fucking brown. there are millions of colors out there to depict otherworldly skin. like bitch piccolo is fucking green in dbz. if you thought i brought up valid criticism then instead of saying ‘ik this is wrong but this is why its okay’ you would say ‘yeah i did think the depictions of the characters is kinda racist even if they author INTENDED to discolor them bc they are dead’ but instead u back pedal so it looks like you’re woke nd aware but STILL trying to argue w me nd speak over me when all i did was make one post abt villains being dark skinned. bitch if u think its valid criticism then why are u so fucking pressed? if u want to be a good ‘ally’ nd listen to criticism then why the fuck are u running your mouth with fucking EXCUSES? check the way u talk to minorities when you’re ‘agreeing’ w their criticism bc your tone sucks. anyways don’t send me nothing fucking else unless it’s an apology or you’re gonna get blocked. thank u 💖

[eunique]

Okay in light of the trending tag #boycottgenshin on twitter, I went through the tag so you don't have to. It's honestly a cesspool.

So here are the summarised points for those who don't have twitter or are sick and tired of twitter drama (honestly me too)

People are claiming that the hilichurls' movements are referenced from indeginous dance, mocking it as a whole.

Not enough black people in the game, claimed to be anti-black. Mostly aimed towards Xinyan and Kaeya

On the topic of Xinyan, that kids are scared of her because of her skin colour

Ulfr's comments about Flora. Self explanatory

Albert being problematic as a character. Esp being Barbara's fan

Kaeya being depicted as "exotic" Xinyan too but more complaints about Kaeya

Sumeru speculated to be inspired by India and Middle Eastern countries. Apparently it's racist

I honestly might be missing more info but those were the most prevalent in the trending tag. If anyone had the misfortune of scrolling through, add more if you wanna

I honestly can't comment on a lot of things, namely the hilichurl movements and Kaeya not being black enough and being referred to as "exotic" as it isn't my place to say.

I will comment briefly about Kaeya ethnicity. I don't think(?) he is meant to be African American? Just becasue he is darker skinned doesn't make him African American from the get go. Maybe he is inspired by other real world ethnic groups? Idk that's how I've seen him

As for Xinyan however, I for one can say she isn't African American. She is Chinese who has darker skin tones. Spoiler alert: Not all Chinese people are of Han ethnicity or fair skinned. Xinyan was probably based off of sub ethnic groups in China that have darker skin tones. Hi, they actually exist.

Xinyan is also just naturally intimidating. That's why she scares kids off because she looks really fierce. It's not her skin colour.

Also super upsetting that Xinyan is being slandered that she's anti-black when she is canonically Asian. She was never African American to begin with! Especially when anti Asian hate has been on the rise, this is not okay. Just because she's darker skinned does not automatically make her African American.

As for Flora and Ulfr, it's awful. Flora was originally going to be an adult but Mihoyo aged her down to be a child last minute. Ulfr's lines need to change.

Albert in general? Most of it really lies in Barbara's age but I believe Barbara is an adult seeing that she has mentioned she can purchase and consume alcohol. She just chooses not to. Idk he is constantly hanging around the cathedral tho which is weird. He's at most a tad problematic but not as bad as people blow it up to be. Someone can correct me on Barbara's age but I am fairly sure she is an adult.

Sumeru being inspired from Indian and Middle Eastern countries and apparently that's racist? Can't comment on it since I'm not from either of said nations. I'll leave that to those can say and have the right to voice their opinion.

It's honestly so disappointing that parts of the Genshin fandom has spiralled to this. People spouting stuff that they probably have zero say in because they are not that ethnic group to begin with. A lot of the stuff could also just be misinformation and seeing that this is trending on twitter, take it with a grain of salt. Conduct further research before leaping to any conclusions.

And also, if you're not one of the ethnic groups mentioned, please stay in your lane.

The people on Twitter needs to do better honestly. This is just getting a tad out of hand

[flockofdoves]

wait ok maybe a bad time to start this at 1:30am (<- started this post last night lmao) but i’ve been thinking so much (for a long time but this week i think maybe prompted by jonny saying stuff in the s5 q&a part 3 about fanon character designs getting more homogenous as the fandom gets bigger its really been on my mind again) about my thoughts on the magnus archives character design stuff

(this turned into such a fucking long post my god sorry lol. just writing this for my own purposes really but i feel ridiculous i spent like a good portion of the past day writing this out dkjfhgfd)

like i already said on that other post character design stuff is full of so much under the surface both really silly and almost nonsensical (like ‘oh this character just feels like they have a lot of triangles incorporated into their design’ or the slightly more connected to reality arbitrary ideas people have about what type of character might wear glasses) and stuff thats incredibly loaded and very much connected to real life systems of oppression. so its like. idk. i like drawing people and fashion and harmonizing shapes and the idea of coming up with people who dont exist through abstracted drawings that somehow click and that can feel cohesive even with different angles/expressions/poses/etc is really fun to me conceptually but Character Design(tm) as a thing even outside of established tropes and schools of it that really lean into elements that can uphold gross shit as shorthand just inevitably theres so much to consider in the implications of making a person (visually) and ascribing traits to them (or i guess in this case largely the opposite)

so thats not something id call fun its just important and inevitably a big factor if i’m going to put any of this to words and can only hope i do so non-clumsily when i wanna talk about this on the whole just bc i find the process of how fanon designs get homogenized interesting (and the purpose of it understandable and maybe a bit inevitable in certain contexts) but also regardless of any actual potential problematic implications in any of that just bc i like the creative process of coming up with character designs i like trying to see when it comes to practicing that through applying it to characters in non-visual media i care about how i can break my guides for what they could look like down to their bare essentials between canon description, things i vibe with personally, etc so that if i have all that written down for myself it can be a good starting place for just experimenting with designs (i dont have any desire to settle on any one design for these characters but its just good general practice for this stuff) and maybe pushing a bit against some things that seem to be generally defaulted to mix things up or w/e. so yeah i’ve just wanted to write all this out for myself for a while, so after that long fucking intro fdkgh here goes!

jon!!!

ok so canonically hes born about 1987 and is like roughly 28-31 throughout the series but looks older to the point where he straight up lies and says hes a decade older at one point, he has graying hair, has been described as looking like he hasnt slept in weeks

(this bullet point contains spoilers up to early s4) depending on what part of canon youre describing him in he canonically has scars from worms probably all over his body (post ep 39), a burn scar on his hand (probably right and probably roughly shaped like a handprint) (post ep 89), actually i’m checking on the wiki now and it specifically says melanie stabbed him in the shoulder? but rereading the transcript and another couple parts that i thought potentially could mention it i dont believe it ever actually specifies (maybe the person who wrote that is conflating how both melanie and daisy’s first injuries from the slaughter are on their shoulders? so even if not canon good guess i guess that his scar from thats on his shoulder) (post ep 125) plus also probably on his throat from daisy (post ep 91), somewhere from michael stabbing him (post ep 47), and who knows maybe even something from mike crew (probably not it was just the height part of things not a lightning strike but i saw fanart of him getting a lichtenberg figure scar once from that which was interesting) (post ep 91)

has been described as ‘scrawny’ and ‘little’ which may just be more of a insult but because of that i support manlet jon lol. also because of that tend to think of him as skinny and not very muscular but i’m def not opposed to him being fat i think its really fun when i do see interpretations of him as such esp in juxtaposition with martin its nice having stuff sometimes where its two fat characters in a relationship. but if i’m leaning on every little word to narrow down character design i’d say hes most likely thin and probably short too.

getting into stuff with no real canon basis, i am a fan of him having long hair like a lot of fanon has him with. its a very tangential justification because i know its more the specific events surrounding this this was describing but when he was described as a “grubby jesus” that helped lol

but! my jon hair opinion that seems to differ from fanon is that i think maybe itd make sense with him being described as looking older and stuff to give him a bit of a receding hairline

not sure about glasses either way i think it just comes down to the specific design whether it looks good or not. there is something conceptually funny to me about giving an avatar of the eye glasses and debating whether that “makes sense” or not lol. one time i saw someones design where he stopped needing to wear glasses later on and i thought that was kinda fun

i don’t really care for like. idk. glowing green eyed jon or multiple eyes or w/e. like i get it. idk probably somethings happening when hes doing like the ceaseless watcher thing or like that one scene where he forced a statement out of that person who described him as “all eyes” like the phrase but maybe not just that as a phrase. so that plus the cover art of the show being green and making people probably theme stuff on that color i guess i cant blame people for doing that but idk just like. it feels kinda just Blah and not that novel to see a lot of the time and a bit too tropey or w/e for my personal taste unless people mix it up a bit. so i tend to prefer him just looking like some guy even later on usually. also with just like brown eyes or w/e

okay so this next part is for both jon and martin because i cant fit this into either of their sections because i feel like i cant adequately talk about this without doing it in juxtaposition to one another

this post summarizes basically anything i’m reiterating here far better but basically by nature of this being a podcast written by a white person for whom most of the first characters voiced (who included most of the most frequently appearing characters outside of those described by others because they were reoccurring avatars or w/e long before voice appearances) were from a small pool of people at a majority white company and their family members, even if that wasnt “intentional” of course that pattern happens so much and more productions should be conscious of that from the get go and reach outside their immediate circles to cast more actors of color from the start of their productions if they have the resources to properly compensate them. so basically from there theres no real totally satisfying solution for portraying “aracial” characters acted and written by white people’s race, because the situation just isn’t ideal in the first place

so like, with that in mind, i know its a bit of a mixed bag with jon in fanon being pretty consistently either ambiguously a person of color or specifically south asian, because i know people of color who were excited from fanon going in for him to be a person of color only to realize hes written and voiced by a white guy and has no canon race (which might just somewhat default to him being written as white since theres no active thought to how him being a person of color, let alone any specific race or ethnicity, might affect anything), but then on the other hand, characters with no race given being defaulted to being portrayed as white is absolutely another common issue in fandoms of things like books and podcasts. so personally because of that i would feel weird portraying him as white in my own designs in contrast with how consistently hes depicted as a person of color, but i would be interested in potentially depicting him as other races beyond the default fanon of him being south asian too (although theres def stuff to consider there that doesnt prevent any interpretation but just is there regardless like his dynamic with daisy in like s4)

and then this post expresses things better than i could ever rehash, but because of the stuff outlined in there in my own attempts at character designs i try to avoid making martin white because of the juxtaposition between that and making jon a person of color in their dynamic. not as pertinent and not something i’ve taken in from any fan of color saying it so i’m definitely not dictating this just talking out my thought process, but by extension of this i’ve also tried to consider how colorism in juxtaposition between them might make it sit better to have martin have darker skin than jon. this does get a bit weird though when balancing how martin has a couple really goofy lines implying ignorance about police abusing their power (i guess charitable interpretations could be that hes plenty aware but nonetheless vocalizing shock in the moment of it actually happening in front of him), so even if as one of the few characters i’ve posted designs of before i drew him as black, when i remembered those lines i guess its just an issue of an “aracial” character being defaulted to being written as if hes white, so even if he certainly could still be black (or any race besides white who might not have the luxury of ignorance about police brutality) it just makes clear that by him being written the way he was nothings ideal because theres not necessarily much depth that can be taken from canon to make certain depictions of him as satisfying or well fleshed out as they could be. oh also so inconsequential to the rest of this and i dont care about this at all beyond just latching onto any scrap to base things off of but the fact that martin maybe knows at least some polish i feel like thats not a language most people just know from school (esp as someone who didnt go to college) or w/e so maybe his mom is polish so probably hes part white at least to wildly extrapolate from there? idrc tho its just one more thing to note on the subject depictions of jon and martins races

martin!

canonically the same age as jon (so approximately born 1987 and roughly 28-31 throughout the series)

theres at least like 4 things in canon that can be used to say hes canonically fat, and some of those lines also more just generally describe him as “big” or w/e so while i dont care about sticking to this as much its easy to argue hes tall too (esp that one point where he says a worm “jumped literally 6 feet through the air at my face” which i guess could be approximate or the worm like. arcing lol and also iirc jonny says he doesnt remember writing that line but regardless its another thing to latch onto to narrow down design stuff)

melanie!

canonically has a scar on her shoulder (as of late 2016), probably on her leg too (if not by early 2017 then by early 2018/ep 125), and is described as skinny

(spoilers for late s4) (also eye trauma mention) post ep 155 she’s blind but trying to research what exactly she might look like like would the results of the damage she does with the awl after going to the hospital would her eyes need to be eviscerated vs enucleated? idk. thinking about lydia saying in a s3 extra in retrospect talking about this where shes like ‘it wouldn’t work like that with [an awl]!’ bc . lol yeah idk. or like would she have scarring on her eyelids or anything, would she have glass eyes, would she feel a need to wear sunglasses to protect her eyes or as a visual cue that shes blind (bc idt shed be the type to just wear it to hide her eyes) or not, etc. i’m not sure! one thing i do know for sure though thats a pet peeve in art is that people make her cane have a red stripe on it when it the UK especially a red striped white cane is for deafblind people, so her cane is most likely just plain white (also theres different styles of white canes but from researching i think shed probably make use of a long cane imo)

my biggest non-canon appearance thought about her is just. melanie king butch 💗

i do think its fun when characters get drawn with unnaturally colored dyed hair for no real reason and do think people should have fun with that more but simultaneously the contrarian in me gets annoyed with how common blue grown out roots straight hair bob melanie is. like the fun of the novelty of being ‘fuck it dying this characters hair’ gets sucked out of it from it being so consistent in fanon. also while she def could be a long haired butch or w/e regardless i just wish fanon of her was way more masc for my own self indulgent reasons

basira

i think the only canonical appearance description is the implication that shes not thin by jared when describing her, melanie, and martin, distinguishing melanie as “the skinny one”

hussain specifically as a surname spelled that way while i’m def no expert, from people i know personally and looking online too seems to be most common specifically with pakistani, indian, and bangladeshi muslims so it makes the most sense to have her be depicted as south asian. considering her VA, her being part black could make sense too but also i feel like its kinda a Thing in a lot of media where they’ll barely have black characters but when they do they’ll make them cops so like idk that’d def require more thought to it.

definitely not on authority on this of course this is just me talking through my own thoughts but i feel like maybe the common fanon of her being a hijabi feels a bit just like . theres not much thought behind it for a lot of people doing it? like it feels like ‘she has a muslim name’ -> ‘she’s muslim’ -> ‘she wears a hijab’ and not much else. like theres just like a whole lot that would need to be unpacked with any main character being religious in this series and actually specifically iirc theres a part in season 5 or something where her and jon reflect on the implications of all this on human religion? and both seem a bit agnostic in their approach. and of course theres people who wear hijabs who arent particularly religious (just like obviously vice versa) but for adults in places that arent majority muslim i feel like a main motivator for that would be connection with ones wider community? but basically all of the main characters in this story like necessarily with the themes and how all this was able to happen to them they feel pretty atomized from any real community (she specifically is paralleled with martin in how she latches onto daisy) none of this is at all to say she couldn’t be practicing islam and/or a hijabi but just that if thats how people want to depict her i think it deserves more thought than just drawing her as such (like for one example of how people have done cool things with making characters muslim i appreciate this artists comics about muslim jon (1, 2, 3)) but yeah! idk just something i’ve been thinking about but very much is not something i can act like an authority on of course. because being a hijabi is something stigmatized i do nonetheless feel slightly weird if i were to go against that fanon but idk

part of me is like ‘we dont need more butch cops’ but then the other part of me just defaults to wanting to make every woman gnc lol. for w/e reason i tend to picture her dressing pretty practically in like khaki cargo pants and hiking boots and flannels and such

daisy

canonically theres here starburst shaped scar on the back of her shoulder

(spoilers for mid s4) i dont care to find it now but i feel like once she was described as scrawny or skinny or whatever (not sure how much focusing on muscle vs thinness if so) but if so that was after she came out of the coffin so i dont think that really implies she always looked like that and i think maybe even by contrast could be implying she was muscular before

def think it makes sense to make her white. generally i do see her similar to fanon depictions of her although i do kinda wish in juxtaposition people would make more women look butch besides her. i think when i first pictured her before seeing fanart or anything it was pretty similar in build and hair color and demeanor such as most of fanon but i pictured her with like . you know like the tight bun women in the military wear lol. so its more ambiguous if her flavor of powertripping “tough” white woman is gay or not. but idrc regardless i dont plan on making much art of her

tim

uhhh i think the only canonical description of him beyond his worm scars (post ep 39) is that basira called him hot in comparison to jon and martin lol

ever since i started listening i keep defaulting to picturing him vaguely like tim from marble hornets lol. so like idk i think its fun when he has defined eyebrows and sideburns and stuff. but not even that i’m really Set on i think theres a lot of fun potential designs for him

sasha

canonically has long hair, is tall, and has glasses

(spoilers for either end of s1 or end of s2 depending on if you’ve figured out something. if you know you know lol) like obviously theres weird stuff in juxtaposition if you make not!sasha a different race than her. i think probably regardless theyre the same race considering melanie didnt note that when describing what sasha looked like. idrc about figuring out what not!sasha looks like ig if i ever make art of her i’ll just figure it out

i think this was the first art i ever saw of her like right around the week or so i started listening to the show that was posted and a mutual reblogged it so i think from basically the start thats how i pictured her essentially. but the main parts of ‘long dark hair, glasses’ i internalized from that are so close to just canon so maybe not saying much

georgie

uhhhh i dont think theres any canon description of her? and i dont have very many opinions on what she does look like honestly except that i think she looks very bisexual lol. i like the idea of her presenting pretty gnc but still maybe having some fun with feminine aesthetics too, but honestly making her present totally masc is really cool too

oh also wrt body type stuff. part of me is a bit tired of how sometimes it feels like fat characters only get to be in romantic relationships if its with skinny characters and rarely are there character designs of two fat people together and melanie is canonically skinny (which doesnt really matter i Could ignore it but i like latching onto descriptions just to narrow things down) and jons maybe implied to be which makes jon/martin like that too. but on the other hand idec i care more about just having fat wlw characters so if melanie in all i project on her cant be that then georgie will be

oliver!

only canonical description of him i believe is “tall, black and careworn, deep lines of worry etched into an otherwise handsome face”

uhh beyond that idk.. not really set on this at all but i feel like maybe he dresses like. business goth lol. like idk. well put together casual clothes like nice quality short sleeve button ups and chinos or nice cuffed jeans but maybe darker colors and a bit of a vaguely edgy but not tacky flair (like fucking idk. raven pattern button up or something lol)

i saw some art of him once where he had long locs and also just idk he was like doing that ominous floaty thing which included his hair and that had a nice rhythm in the art together with the black tendrils in the background so i could appreciate him having long locs/braids/twists or something. but def not set on that and ofc theres like a lot of years to depict him between he could have various hair styles

this is hard to really judge but ive seen posts where people are like ‘haha i draw oliver just like i drew kravitz in the adventure zone’ which is like vaguely annoying to me idk lol. but of course i cant Really know if thats what people are doing from depiction alone bc theres no set appearance for kravitz himself but sometimes i get the Vibes thats whats someones doing and its just like. whatever idk. branch out and design another character!!

there are literally soooooo many more characters i really thought i could make a short-ish thing for each character beyond a few necessary addendums but god even on inconsequential shit this post is already SO fucking long lol so i’m giving up for now i’ve done most of the main people plus my favorite side character so its fine i can get back to this later if i really want to

[caroleratzer]

Reflection on Textbook Chapters 11-14 and Peck Questions.

Chapter 11

Realistic Fiction

Summary: Realistic Fiction is also known as contemporary realistic fiction or modern realistic fiction. The setting, characters, and storylines align with real-life, contemporary society (as opposed to historical fiction, set in the past, and science fiction/fantasy, set in fantastic, scientifically-advanced, or futuristic societies).

In order to evaluate realistic fiction for children, librarians, parents, and teachers should consider the following:

Everything, including speech, behavior, and culture must be consistent with the real world in which children live. Books should avoid stereotypes concerning race, culture, gender, and religion.

Theme should arise naturally from the story rather than appearing didactically or moralistic.

Novels should handle topics and issues, especially those of a sensitive or uncomfortable nature, in a realistic manner. Many of these issues were once considered taboo but are now written about in children’s and young adult’s literature frequently.

Reflection: Some books, such as Neal Shusterman’s Challenger Deep and Going Bovine, by Libba Bray dance the line between realism and fantasy as the protagonists struggle with mental problems arising from schizophrenia and Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease (mad cow disease). While these novels depict scenes that are unrealistic fantasies, readers come to understand that the real world is gradually disappearing in the boys’ minds rather than becoming a reality to all of the other characters. In the end, the diseases and their prognosis are both dealt with realistically. As a long-time reader, I think it’s interesting to see how society’s idea of what is “acceptable” reading for young people has evolved. Most, if not all, of the novels published by Judy Blume in the 70’s and 80’s, that were frequently challenged seem tame when compared with more recently published novels.

Chapter 12

Nonfiction

Summary: Dr. Robert Small-nonfiction is the only book we describe as what it is not. Nonfiction books can be published in any format from poetry to picture book and from narrative to expository. As standard sets such as TEKS and Common Core have spread, so has the amount and variety of nonfiction resources.

When evaluating nonfiction, parents and educators should consider:

Author qualifications through sources such as author biography on dust jacket or book, author websites, acknowledgements, bibliographies and notes, reviews, and author publication experience (some authors have historically proven themselves through earlier writing).

Factual accuracy of the text itself can be verified by checking other sources over the same subject or through lists provided by organizations such as the National Council for the Social Studies, the National Council for Teachers of Math, and the National Science Foundation. These organizations publish annual lists of outstanding trade books in their respective fields. Adults should help kids learn how to evaluate the accuracy of information provided in books.

Purpose and scope of the book: Who is the book’s intended audience? It’s Perfectly Normal is designed to provide teens with facts concerning all things related to the physical and sexual development of the human body. It’s so Amazing provides younger readers with information limited to babies and reproduction.

The book’s organization should be such that researchers can locate required information quickly using the table of contents and index. On the other hand, some readers may just wish to browse the book’s contents at their own leisure. Text boxes are frequently included to provide pops of information that may add to the book’s content and catch reader’s eye.

Visuals should help readers understand what the book is about and support the text within the book.

Carter and Abrahamson’s List of Questions to Ask Students about Nonfiction:

Tell how this book would be different if it had been written 50 years earlier or 50 years later.

Describe your favorite illustrations. Which illustration do you wish you had done yourself?

Would this book make a good documentary? Why?

Explain what you think the author did to research and write this book.

How would this book be different if it had been written for an adult? For a kindergarten student? 

What kind of teacher do you think the author of this book would make?

If you had the chance to interview the authors of this book, what would you ask them? 

Describe three facts, theories, or incidents that you found particularly interesting. Tell why. 

Examine the title and jacket of this book. Do they represent a fair representation of the contents of the book?

Reflection: I love the idea of having kids compare and contrast the facts listed in multiple nonfiction books and then research to find out which one is more accurate. What a great way to introduce younger kids to research (or help older kids having problems understanding how to research). My students are supposed to be completing a research assignment next month. I would like to try to  adapt this for them. I had never considered that religious texts such as the Bible and the Koran would fall under the category of  “nonfiction,” although this makes perfect sense considering their respective religions hold them as true historical accounts of the ancient history of their peoples. I have kept copies of the Bibles in my classroom for several years because I realized that many of my students were unfamiliar with Bible stories. In American Literature, this can make reading of Puritan and early American writings difficult to comprehend. Two books that caught my eye that you spoke about in the video were Why’d They Wear That? and Seeds. The first because I love historical fiction and knowing the facts behind the story’s events add to the experience for me. The second because I had never considered that scientists kept various types of seeds in case they needed to reintroduce or replace crops or plant varieties that have been blighted for some reason.

Chapter 13

Fantasy/Science Fiction

Summary: Stories that violate the laws of physical reality fall into the category of fantasy. This included talking animals as well as mythical beings and science fiction.

Fantasy Types:

Low: The story is set in our world; however, it contains elements that are “fantastic” such as vampires, fairies, talking animals, etc. (The Infernal Devices, Charlotte’s Web, House of Night)

High: The story is set in an imaginary world of the author’s creation. (The Lord of the Rings, Graceling, Eragon)

Science Fiction Types:

Hard: Novel centers more on scientific element than story or plot. (Star Wars, Star Trek)

Soft: Novel still includes elements of advanced science, but the story’s plot line takes center stage. (The Giver, Unwind)

Science Fiction Subgenres: (From video)

Apocalyptic- takes place in a world facing imminent destruction of civilization and technology, usually through some form of destructive element, either climatic or man-made. (Grasshopper Jungle, Tumble and Fall, Life as We Knew It)

Post-apocalyptic- takes place generations after the collapse of civilization. Society faces limited technology and characters are struggling to survive. (Hunger Games, Divergent, The Testing)

Steampunk- Usually set in Victorian Society or a society similar to it. Society relies on steam powered technology (very ‘cool’ and advanced steam-driven) (The Great Library Series by Rachel Caine features steam driven lions that guard the entrances to libraries around the world)

Cyberpunk- Includes dark elements of computer technology and hacking as well as man vs. technology conflicts (Lunar Chronicles)

Biopunk- Features the darker side of genetic engineering (Feed, The Power of Un, Prism)

Virtual Reality/Gaming- Characters are caught in a virtual reality/game (Ready Player One, Feed, Eye of Minds, Doomed)

Dystopian- Society appears “perfect” from outside but includes:

Propaganda that is used to control citizens 

A figurehead who is worshipped and feared 

Information and independent thought is restricted 

Citizens fear the outside world

Individuality is discouraged or prohibited

The antagonist of these novels is generally someone who discovers society’s darkest secrets and/or becomes disillusioned with their society and rebel against the system. The first dystopian novel is believed to be “Gulliver’s Travels” in 1726, but dystopian novels didn’t really take off until the 20th century. Dystopian Novels for teens really took off with the Hunger Games, Divergent, and Under the Never Sky

Extra-Sensory Perception (ESP)-includes telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, telekinesis, etc. (The Diviners, Soulless, Clarity, Bruiser)

Robots/Androids/Cyborg/Artificial Intelligence (AI)- Includes clones (Cinder, Girl Parts, Skinned/Crashed/Wired

Space/Extraterrestrial- involves alien invasion, conspiracy, colonization, first contact, or space opera (The Knife of Never Letting Go, Alienated, Tune: Vanishing Point/ Still Life, Across the Universe)

Time Travel/Parallel Universe/Time Slip (She didn’t use this term, but she did describe it here.)- includes concerns of time paradoxes such as the grandfather paradox (If you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you can’t be born, but then how could you go back in time and kill your grandfather?) or the butterfly effect (ripple effect generated by interference with historical events) (Waterfall, The Here and Now)

Misc.-don’t fit neatly into any other categories (Turn About, Sick, The Originals, Things Not Seen)

* Some novels fit into multiple categories.

Criteria for Evaluating Science Fiction and Fantasy for Children:

Despite the fantastic aspects of the story, characters must behave in consistent and believable ways. 

There must still be rules for the fantasy world. 

Authors must assist readers in the “willing suspension of disbelief.”

Themes should explore universal truths.

Reflection: I was surprised that there were so many categories of science fiction. Although I had heard of hard and soft sci fi, I had never thought about categories such as steampunk or biopunk. This chapter also made me think about the term “genre” and what we mean when we say that word. In the first reflection, we learned that genre simply means is it fiction or nonfiction as opposed to what format the work is written in (poetry, graphic novel, drama, etc). Everything else is subgenre. However, it seems like we are still using genre to describe different categories of fiction or nonfiction. Since English is a living language, definitions often shift, narrow, or broaden as time goes on. I believe that this is what has happened to genre. At one time, it only referred to whether or a work is fiction or nonfiction; however, today we also use it to include what KIND of fiction or nonfiction that we are talking about (fantasy, science fiction, historical fiction, etc.). Otherwise you have genres, subgenres, and also-what?-sub-subgenres? I’ve always enjoyed this type of story, and I know that dystopian and post-apocalyptic novels have both been enormously popular with my students. For the past few years, I have ended the year with a research project where students research historical utopian societies and read a young adult dystopian novel. The final activity is a group project in which they attempt to plan their own perfect society. In order to accomplish this, they are given a guided planning document. We also spend time discussing what made the society in their chosen novel a dystopia since, in many of these stories, the society at least starts out as an attempt to create the perfect society. For example, in Harrison Bergeron, the idea of everyone being given an equal playing field sounds (on the surface at least) like a great idea. However, problems arise when you begin to hold those who are stronger, smarter, or more talented back through artificial means so that those who are weaker or less intelligent or talented will have a “fair” chance. It’s interesting to think that our own society, in its efforts to protect fragile egos, is sometimes guilty of the same thing. This is part of the reason why science fiction novels, in general, and dystopian novels, specifically, are so popular; they depict society gone mad. It is a case of art imitating life. Unfortunately, when we try too hard to make everything fair and equal for everyone, we often wind up making things unfair and unequal for everyone.

Chapter 14

Graphic Novels

Summary: Graphic Novel generally describes any book in a comic format that resembles a novel in length and narrative development. Graphic Novels:

Combine elements of text and illustration to convey the story (fiction) or information (nonfiction) in much the same way as a picture book.

Differ from picture books and comics in their complexity.

Appeal to a wide variety of readers, regardless of age, grade, ability, and attitude. (not just unmotivated readers with difficulty)

Promote literacy by motivating readers through a unique medium. (Use both prose in a printed format and also tell a story through visual images, dialogue, and impression of movement like a film.)

Are great for teaching tone and mood.

Offer benefits to language learners as well as those students with special needs. (ELL, LEP, SPED, Dyslexia, etc.)

Contain all of the elements of literature. 

Can provide content area literacy with historical fiction, science fiction, nonfiction, etc. 

Can be used as part of curriculum in multiple subject areas to help students critically examine aspects of art, history, literature, and science.

Parts of a graphic novel:

Panels-squares or rectangles that have a single scene. Panels are read left to right and top to bottom, just like traditional texts.

Gutters- space in between panels 

Dialog balloons- show what characters are saying. 

Thought balloons- show what characters are thinking 

Caption- contain information about the scene or characters. 

Sound effects- visual representations of sounds (wonk! Pow! Smack!)

Reflection: My kids loved Captain Underpants and Baby Mouse when they were younger. One thing that I have found is that while graphic novels can supplement traditional literary versions, they should not be used instead of those versions. I learned this several years ago when I was teaching freshmen. One of the teachers on our team suggested that we use a graphic version of “Romeo and Juliet” in an attempt to help our students better understand and relate to Shakespeare. Some students loved this version; however, others found it too distracting to try to follow the story in this format. They, like many people who are unfamiliar with graphic novels, felt like they were reading a comic book that couldn’t possibly tell the story “right.” In the end, I found that using the traditional drama but offering the graphic version to those students who found it helpful as additional academic support. This chapter has also helped me today as I struggled to engage a student who refuses to complete any work in class. He will either sleep or play on his phone. Students are currently reading a piece of classical American Literature. We gave them a list of 10 novels that were taught as part of the English III curriculum in the past but are currently left to gather dust in the book room. When I asked my student what kind of stories he liked, he told me “adventure and suspense.” My next question: what kind of books do you enjoy? “Comic books” So I asked him how he felt about graphic novels, and he said that he liked those as well. We looked on the library website and located a graphic novel of “Huckleberry Finn.” After he read the description, he agreed to “give it a try.” Although he’s not reading the traditional text of the novel, if I can get him to read and discuss elements such as setting, theme, and characterization using a version that he is comfortable with, I feel like we will both have grown from this experience.  

Richard Peck’s 10 Questions to Ask about a Novel

NOTE: Reflection is under each question.

What would the story be like if the main character were of the opposite sex? (helps diffuse sexual polarizations and stereotyping)

Today, this question would be expanded so much! Having just finished “57 Bus,” I have learned more about gender differences than I ever thought possible! Today, the issue of gender goes so much deeper than male and female. I wonder how these differences affect this question. In addition, you could also add race or culture to this discussion.

Why is the story set where it is? (Not where is the story set?) (points out setting as an author's device)

This is an interesting question. I would also add WHEN to this question as well. I had my students discuss everything included under the umbrella of “setting” recently. Many had no idea that setting was much more than where and when. It was an interesting conversation because many had not considered how the story would change if you moved it from its current setting. One of the examples that came up was the series “Stranger Things” because the authors had talked about how the 1980’s was really the last decade when technology such as cell phones and computers hadn’t become so widespread that parents could monitor where their kids were at any given time, and the kids couldn’t just google “how to kill an interdimensional monster” for help. We also talked about Shakespeare and why his plays never depicted a wedding ceremony (because then he would have shown whether he was Protestant or Catholic).

If you were to film the story, would you use black and white or color and WHY? (consideration of tone)

This question makes me think about “The Giver.” When I read the book, I remember thinking how difficult it would be to make into a movie. One of the biggest surprises in the book for me was the way that most of the characters didn’t perceive color. I always wondered how a movie could keep this until the time when the Giver explains it to Jonah. (As has since been shown, they can’t. The director just showed this color blindness from the beginning of the movie.) Another consideration for tone would be to add the question: what kind of background music would you use? Or what kind of lighting?

If you could not use all of the characters, which would you eliminate and WHY? (characters which add texture vs. simplification for media translation)

Another consideration: could any characters be combined? Which secondary characters are too important to eliminate? Why?

How is the main character different from you? (reader can identify without being like the main character)

I’m not sure about this question. I guess that it would go hand in hand with how is the character like you, but it just seems like a strange consideration for teens who often assume that EVERYONE is different from them with the possible exception of their closest peers.

Would this story make a good TV series? Why/not? (ending focus and sequential nature of chapters)

I think this is the most interesting question especially since many teens are so visual. Many of them would rather just watch the movie. Placing them into a position of considering if a book would make a better movie or mini-series? How long would the mini-series need to be to cover the material in the book? Many stories beg for more episodes, and some have their own endings built in.

What one thing in the story has happened to you? (anecdotal response of recognition)

In some cases, this question also addresses the human experience and questions of theme. This is especially the case when the story is set in a time or place vastly different from the teen’s own.

Reread the first paragraph of Chapter 1. What is in it to make you read on? If nothing, why did you continue to read? (hooks reader and awareness of author's intent in writing)

I love this question because I can think of some books that I’ve read (Twilight, for one) that took much longer than one paragraph to hook readers. Asking readers to ponder what it was that kept them reading in spite of the fact that the author failed to offer a strong enough reason to continue reading in the beginning of the first chapter.

If you had to design a new cover for the book, what would it look like? (deceptive packaging and consumerism)

This is an interesting question. I wonder why the concept of designing a different cover is linked to “deceptive packaging and consumerism.” Is Peck assuming that covers are designed to be deceptive? Could this question be revised to ask why the publisher chose the original cover design? What is it about that particular cover that catches the consumer’s eye? For example, the cover of “Going Bovine” is especially memorable. Even without knowing what the story is about, the cover’s image of a cow carrying a yard gnome gives readers a hint into the novel’s plot without giving too much away. In some ways, I can see how that whimsical cover may fool potential readers into erroneously believing that the novel is a comedy.

What does the title tell you about the book? Does it tell the truth? (titles as narrative hooks vs. symbolic titles)

I love this question. I can also see revisiting the title as readers get farther into the story. The idea of this is similar to TPCASTT in poetry where readers predict the poem’s subject matter based on the title of the poem and then re-examine the title after reading to see if their original theory still holds true. If not, how has it changed? In the case of symbolic titles, many titles also hold allusions to other works. How does this allusion help readers understand the current story? In many cases, readers don’t have to read very far to find the allusion. I’m currently reading “The Hate U Give.” Since I am not a fan of hip-hop, I completely missed the Tupac allusion, but I’m sure that many of my students would have picked up on it immediately.

Other Reflections: I find it interesting that Peck’s questions don’t include questions about point of view. Many novels shift between first person accounts from various characters. How would the story change if it had only been told from the point of view of one character? As third person limited or omniscient? Another technique that authors have recently begun using is publishing ancillary novels or novellas that include accounts from other characters. For example, the Divergent series includes stories from Four; The House of Night Novels offer glimpses into the back stories of some of the teachers at the school.