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annachum · 5 months

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So in the GOT series, Sansa is more often seen wearing Westerosi fashions

Now I'm beginning to imagine Sansa in Valyrian fashions, since she got with Jon and all

I can also totally imagine that several of those female Valyrian allies/friends she made in tow began to recommend Valyrian fashions to Sansa

And then Sansa came to gradually dress in several Valyrian fashion elements, since she got with Jon and all

Sansa came to sometimes enjoy dress in Barlaeris furs and crystals, Velaryon oceanic fashion elements and Pearls, Macklyn Phoenix themed fashion elements and gemstones, Valtigar leather cloaks and ornate robes, and such

In fact, I came to draw several of those Valyrian fashion styles from the 6 Valyrian houses that joined Aegon I Targaryen's conquest of Westeros, that I can totally see Sansa wear

First, a drawing of Sansa in a Barlaeris era of Eileanas Point fashions

The House Barlaeris was one of the 40 dragon lord households of Old Valyria, that have several seats in the North of Old Valyria, until the Doom Happened. Then the House Barlaeris fled to Mossovy where they lived until Aegon I Targaryen called them up to join him on his conquest plan in Westeros - and the Barlaeris members in tow eagerly accepted it. With their hippogriff fleets, they came to rule Eileanas Point in the Northeast of The North, and soon formed formidable ties with House Stark

I can totally see House Barlaeris fashions came to have some nods to Ancient Greco Roman, Ancient Etruscian, Medieval/Renaissance Slavic, and Medieval/Renaissance Scottish fashions

Next, Sansa in a beautiful Velaryon Era Braavos attire, with Pearls and a dress made of Essarian silk.

The House Velaryon is originally one of the Great Houses of Essaria, who joined Lysandros III of Essaria's conquests around several parts of Essos. The House Velaryon came to found the Velaryon Dynasty of Ghis. Ever since Julaerys Targaryen And Thalassea VII Velaryon got together, the House Velaryon soon also has several seats in the South of Old Valyria

Before the Doom, the first Velaryon Emperor of Qarth, Corlaeyos I Velaryon ( who has some nods to Constantine the Great ), a descendant of both Targaryen and Velaryon lines, founded the Velaryon Era Qarth. During the Doom, the rest of the Velaryons in tow all fled to Qarth, where they stayed until a Dothraki descent invasion on Qarth happened. Then they moved to Lys and lives amongst House Rogare ( another one of the 40 Dragon Lord Old Valyrian households ) over there....until Aegon I Targaryen called them to join his conquest on Westeros. They soon ruled Driftmark for centuries until Tywin's rampage on the Houses Targaryen and Velaryon happened. Thus, the House Velaryon moved to an island near Braavos for security, until Daenerys called them to join her conquest.

After the wars of Wolves and Lions, the House Velaryon founded a new Velaryon dynasty in Braavos

And then, Sansa in a gorgeous Macklyn Era of Bay of Dragons attire, with gold jewelry and a purple silk Ottoman/Renaissance Italian inspired robe and a shimmering lavender sheer veil attached to her hair

The House Macklyn is also one of the 40 Dragon lord households in Old Valyria that have several seats in West Valyria.....until the Doom happened. Then, they fled to Mereen where they lived until they joined Aegon I's Conquest of Westeros. Then they ruled the Dornish Marches until during the War of Wolves and Lions, where the House Macklyn helped the Houses Martell, Uller and Dayne flee from Cersei's rampage on Dorne to The Rhohyne, Ghis and Skahadazhan respectively.

Later on, after Daenerys' demise, they founded a new dynasty in the Bay of Dragons ( which I think has nods to the Aegean Sea regions )

I can totally see House Macklyn fashions came to have some nods to Ancient Greco Roman, Byzantine, Medieval Catholic Spanish, Medieval/Renaissance Italian, and Ottoman fashions

And then, Sansa, in a gorgeous green and black Valtigar Era of Westerlands dress and gold jewelry

The House Valtigar are amongst the 40 dragon lord households of Old Valyria, with several seats in Northwest of Old Valyria, until the Doom Happened. Then they moved to Pentos, and then came to rule Valtigars Rest amongst the mountains of Westerlands.

They soon became amongst House Lannisters' greatest rivals during War of the Wolves and Lions, even managing to get Tyrion to spy for them for years ( Even before he jumped ship to join Team Daenerys until the KL Massacre caused by Daenerys ) after helping him nurse from his injuries from a great fall in Valtigars rest ( and no Lannister in tow helped him. Poor Tyrion ). By the time the Houses Lannister and Baratheon fell, the House Valtigar founded a new dynasty in Westerlands, and they are way more popular with the Westerlands people in general than the House Lannister ever are.

I can totally see the House Valtigar fashions to come to have some inspos from Ancient Greco Roman, Medieval Italian and Medieval/Renaissance English fashions

And then, Sansa in a gorgeous Celtigar Era Claw Isle, with several elements inspired by Medieval Alpine and Ancient Phoenician fashions

The House Celtigar was amongst the Great Houses of Essaria, who joined Lysandros III of Essaria in his conquests. They came to rule Tyrosh and founded Celtigar dynasty of Tyrosh. Then after the whole Valyrian conquest of Tyrosh ( which was some years before the Valyrian Reach wars ), that conquest ended with a truce in arms between the House Celtigar and those Valyrian fleets. And so, House Celtigar came to have several seats in the East of Old Valyria....until the Doom happened

Then, the House Celtigar fled to Volantis where they lived until they joined Aegon I's Conquest of Westeros. And they soon came to rule Claw Isle, which was an island between Dragonstone and The Vale. The House Celtigar soon have formidable diplomatic ties with the House Arryn.

I can totally see House Celtigar fashions to have some inspos from Ancient Greco Roman, Ancient Phoenician, Olden Tunisian, and Medieval/Renaissance Alpine fashions

Finally, Sansa in a beautiful black and red Byzantine attire

Now, Jon and Sansa came to gradually wear some more Valyrian elements after Daenerys demise and such. And since Sansa becomes Consort of a Targaryen descent, she came to gradually wear some more Valyrian fashion elements

In the Dance of Dragons, the other 5 Valyrian households ( and the House Rogare )side with Team Black

In War of Wolves and Lions, they came to join Daenerys' conquest and Team Daenerys later on formed an alliance with Team Stark. Daenerys' betrayal on Jon and Sansa and the burning down of KL also caused ALL of Daenerys' Valyrian allies then and Tyrion to rage quit her, cuz sadly, Daenerys becomes not that much different from Cersei Lannister or Alicent Hightower

#valyrian fashion #sansa queen of the north #jonsa #house barlaeris #house velaryon #house macklyn #house celtigar #house valtigar #house targaryen #house stark #jon snow

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serpentarii · 1 year

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T A G L I S T S ; updates & spring cleaning

it’s that time of year again. since i’m going to attempt to post content on this blog more regularly, i thought it was a good chance to clean up my current taglists. so, i’ve created this as a masterlist/referral for anyone interested in seeing more from my projects ! below the cut will be a list of all my ongoing projects, a set of comps, a brief paragraph about them, and relevant links. those who don’t interact with this post but are still on at least one taglist will be automatically removed.

starborne ; kentaro miura’s berserk meets dante alighieri’s the divine comedy . introduction . tag

genres ; epic dark fantasy . adventure . romance . tragedy . adult

a planned trilogy about an empire on the cusp of a disastrous civil war in a world plagued by constant political upheaval, unfathomable monsters, and a cannibalistic goddess. set in an empire inspired by the greco-roman world and the italian renaissance.

mordlust ; naomi novik’s uprooted meets philip pullman’s northern lights . introduction . tag

genres ; gaslamp fantasy . fairy tale retelling . young adult

a standalone low fantasy novel featuring a pair of assassins and the roles they unknowingly play in a much larger conspiracy. a wicked forest, a missing prince, a horrible affliction. a retelling of the swan maiden myth in a prussian inspired setting.

a hymn for serpents ; samantha shannon’s the priory of the orange tree meets jacqueline carey’s kushiel’s dart . introduction . tag

genres ; heroic fantasy . supernatural . romance . adventure . new adult

a planned series about a girl accused of a crime she did not commit, an ancient evil reawakened, and the countless lies told under the guise of protection. a retelling of the three snake leaves and the seventh son in a sprawling medieval inspired world.

C U R R E N T T A G L I S T S

{ reblog or comment or send an ask to be +/- from any of these }

the tale of ryuurei { inactive } ; @qelizhus | @birdskullz | @ccorpsidious | @hiddenhistoria | @elliewritesstories | @inky-duchess | @chazzawrites | @partlyparchment | @theelectricfactory | @nallthatjazz | @stormharbors | @cannivalisms | @ladywithalamp | @siriuslyprocrastinating | @muddshadow

the inhuman comedy { inactive } ; @scaevolawrites | @inkingfireplace | @morganwriteblr | @muddshadow | @moariin

#writeblr #writers on tumblr #writerly #spilled ink #w.starborne #w.mordlust #w.ahfs #m.edit #w.mine #had to use tvtropes and wikipedia to discern all these damn subgenres #anyways #we're back

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licncourt · 11 months

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Have you read TVA and Blood and Gold? I would LOVE your rundown on all the historical inaccuracies in BaG.

Unfortunately yes, I have read those with my eyes :/

(the Marius/Armand pederasty conversation I've been meaning to have for like a year below the cut btw)

I wish I hadn't read B&G so young, I didn't have the breadth of knowledge or the foresight to mark anything for later when I was sixteen. I'd reread it for this exact analysis but really I don't think I have it in me so memory and ctrl + f to confirm will have to suffice.

Honestly, the biggest problem I had with it wasn't inaccuracies so much as the fact that the whole book reads like a Wikipedia entry. It's so clumsy and dry, it feels like AR just wants us to know how many Roman Facts she learned. It overshadows the story rather than adds to it. Fr, read this (if you can stand it).

There was not one reason in the world that she needed to explain the Battle of the Milvian Bridge in that level of detail, and that's coming from me. This sounds like a bad undergrad paper from a student who wants to prove they did the reading.

The whole book feels like this except when it detours into creepy and pedophilic, and I just don't need my vampire book to explain the Council of Nicaea AND the Edict of Milan AND the Parthian Wars AND the Vatican wall frescoes AND the Medici bank and a million other things to me like I'm in a survey lecture. It's mind-numbing for me and this is literally what I DO, so I can only imagine how other people must feel with no context or particular interest in this stuff.

It's not that she's WRONG per say, it's more that she clearly has no understanding of these subjects outside the rote recitation of facts. It's just regurgitated bullet points about Roman history and the Italian Renaissance. She also repeats some well known apocryphal stories in there, but I'm going to be generous and hope she doesn't think these are facts (like the Chi-Rho epiphany).

If anything seems sus and I don't remember it though, feel free to send it to me and I can yay or nay the information to the best of my ability!

*cw here for discussion of CSA*

With that said, I do think AR had a very skewed understanding of the pederastic dynamic or was choosing to ignore it, which is unfortunate considering how attached she was to the idea. A lot of my thesis research coincided with Greco-Roman pederastic tradition, so it's a pet peeve of mine when it's misapplied. It's not an uncommon problem (Call Me By Your Name has this going on too), but authors sending gay relationships with a rapey age gap through a "pederasty" funnel always pisses me off.

The history of pederasty is very long and complicated and ancient (we're talking Homer and Iliad kind of old here), but the bare bones explanation of the process and logic is this:

The ancient Greeks were deeply invested in turning their upper class boys into good citizens. To accomplish this, sometimes an established adult man would woo a younger male (most often starting at 14-19 years old) with gifts and attention over an extended period of time. Once the courtship was complete and the boy's self control had been proven, there were sexual relations between the two for a period of time.

The purpose of this relationship was ultimately to educate the boy, and the physical pleasure was used as a teaching tool to establish rapport and intimacy that could then be escalated to instruction on matters of philosophy and intellect in general. Essentially using the mastery and maturation of one's body as a stepping stone to the mastery and maturation of the mind. Once the boy was appropriately prepared to enter elite male society and/or had become physically developed as a man, the relationship ended.

It's pretty obvious that she's trying to do a whole pederastic erastes/eromenos thing with Marius and Armand, but she took an already very bad and gross practice from history and muddled it up with her own awful ideas about consent from minors and sexual fantasies of a kinky student/teacher savior relationship in her vampire books.

I hate the erotic and romanticized version of pederasty that's become weirdly popular in gay media, and AR was one of the first to really do this. It just picks up the historical thread of CSA under the guise of a kid's "consent" and continues to normalize it to modern readers with a new sexy twist. Using a bastardized version of a fucked up ancient practice to implicitly justify or downplay the severity of statutory rape is simply not the move, especially when gay and bisexual men already face stigma around being predatory and pedophilic. Just don't.

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epifaniacintilante · 15 days

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THE LADIES OF MY 2024 SO FAR

Orla McCool ( Derry Girls)

We have a captivating irish weirdo

Elena Greco and Raffaella Cerullo (My Brilliant Friend) again and everything I ever did was just another way to scream your name

Two italian complicated friends destroying my heart every single time

Lucy MacLean ( Fallout)

A post apocalyptical girl trying to find her father through the ruins of USA civilization

Marya Bolkonskaya (War & Peace)

A Russian heiress trying to live through napoleonic wars, deceitful suitors and a hell of a father

Shiv Roy ( Succession) forever and ever

I tried so hard and got so far but in the end it doesn't even matter

Yeon Mi Jeong ( My Liberation Notes)

A south korean working lady tired of everything. This character is literally me

Oh Hyangmi ( When The Camellia Blooms)

And that bad, lonely bitch. I did not suspect she would affect me this much

I watched Sanditon last year, but my love for Esther is everlasting. And I make the rules anyway

#personal #personal list

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vahvah · 9 months

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Well, I think the situation around the perception of iranian history and greek history in fandom is quite similar.

Let's be honest, for most people there is only Ancient Greece (by which they mean the history of the classical greek city-states + hellenistic period + roman period, we are not particularly touching on the dark ages and bronze age Mycenaean Greece, not to mention earlier times), which they - following the manga/anime canon - separate from modern Greece. And there is modern Greece, which, in general, began its independent existence in the first half of the nineteenth century, when a small piece of territory in the southern Balkans gained independence and was called “Hellas”. At best, they have ottoman rule as a kind of “preparatory period” when the canonical Iraklis grew up, did not understand anything and did not really decide anything. And at the same time, modern Greece is the son of Ancient Greece, who loves to be nostalgic about his cool mother, who did something great there more than two thousand years ago. Cool, yeah.

Likewise, for most people there is "ancient Persia" (before the conquest of the Islamic Caliphate in the 7th and 8th centuries AD) and "modern Iran", which they count from the Islamization of the Iranian plateau. In the manga canon, we have a character called "Persia", who people unthinkingly identify with the Achaemenid state, the Parthian Arsacid state, and the Sassanid state. In fanon, he (“Persia”) actively interacts (at war) with Rome, interacts with China and India in much rarer cases, and the mangaka also mentioned that he has descendants, one of which is “modern” Iran, yes. And, of course, there is an incredible amount of time devoted to the Achaemenid period (but not the greco-persian Wars, which shocked me when researching the fandom). Cool, yeah.

But you know what's surprising? None of this makes any sense.

If we take Greece... no, we take greek culture, we will understand that it has continuously developed, without gaps, from the time of the classical polis until the present moment, BUT, if you really want to find a watershed, then this is late antiquity. Why? Because in late antiquity, the pagan hellenes, living in their separate city-states as citizens, became christian rhomeans, subjects of the vast Eastern Roman Empire (which in fact is still perceived as a Republic). The roman "imperial" identity replaced the greek polis identity - although the greek language still dominated in the East, especially after the Avar conquest of the Balkans, when the Empire lost the latin-speaking provinces. The perception of “hellenic” identity was very complex, it experienced a revival, especially in the 13th century, when the roman/latin identity began to be associated with the germans/italians/franks, enemies of the Eastern Empire, but this is if we are talking about intellectuals - the people considered themselves rhomeans. And guess what? The conquest of Constantinople in 1453 did not change anything! There was no break or fracture! The Church of Constantinople continued to be the guardian of this identity even in the absence of christian imperial power! And the people who started the Greek Revolution in the 19th century did not strive to create a small national state, no, in their eyes ALL of Anatolia and the Balkans were the historical lands of the Eastern Roman Empire, which they considered their country. The fascination with ancient pagan Greece is something that was brought from the West, which despised “Byzantium”.

And if you look at Iran, the real boundary between "ancient" and "modern" history is the conquest of Alexander the Great. Because - this will amaze many - but until the second half of the 19th century in Iran itself they knew nothing about the ancient history of the country! The first historical event preserved in chronicles and art, say, the "Shahnameh" of Ferdowsi, is the conquest of Alexander, which has nothing to do with the real one (I will only say that Alexander is considered a descendant of the iranian royal dynasty there). In Iran, they knew almost nothing about the greco-persian wars, about the Seleucids, about the parthian Arsacids and the roman-parthian wars! The real history in Iranian perception began only with the Sassanids, who were at enmity with “Rum” - but, first of all, not with Western, decrepit Rome, but with Eastern Rome! It was “Byzantium” that was “Rome” for the Iranians and for the entire Middle East until the 19th century, while the Western “latins” were the “franks”. Moreover, I want to note that the complete forgetting of the history of the country before Alexander in Iran began even under the Sassanids - largely because ancient persian was a cuneiform language, and cuneiform was forgotten (as for the iranian epic, its oldest part is eastern iranian in origin, western iranian, persian, it becomes only from the time of Ardashir the First). But the arab conquest and adoption of islam did not have such consequences! And when the revival of iranian culture and the new persian language began in the 9th-10th centuries A.D., it was a revival, albeit rethought, of Sassanian identity.

In short, while it makes sense to separate Ancient Greece from "Byzantium", it makes no sense to separate "Byzantium" from modern Greece. And the history of modern Iran begins with the Sassanids, not Islamization.

#hetalia meta #hetalia #aph #hws #aph greece #hws greece #aph byzantine empire #hws byzantine empire #aph persia #hws persia #aph iran #hws iran

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polarysvelaryon · 4 months

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Random and not well formulated ramblings: Brazil in Riordanverso?

As a Brazilian, Paolo from ToA makes me think a lot, but not necessarily in terms of representation (as he is hardly a character but almost a statue to look good) but a little about what he means for world-building.

“Come now, Percy. What you call Western Civilization... is a living force, collective consciousness that has burned bright for thousands of years. The gods are part of it, [a] fire started in Greece. The heart of the fire moved to Rome, and so did the gods... wherever the flame was brightest, the gods were there. They are now in your United States. Look at your symbol, the eagle of Zeus. Look at the statue of Prometheus in Rockfeller Center... like it or not—America is now the heart of the flame. It is the great power of the west. And so Olympus is here."

This is the information we have about how the Greek gods normally work, Apollo even says that Brazil could be a location too. Being, at least in principle, a force that would take these gods to central places of culture, influence and civilization (and I have my problems with that but that's a conversation for another time). The second information I want to focus on is about places with little or no divine influence.

We enter the topic of ALASKA, which to this day is unknown. Fans point out things like: distance, being a recent territory of the USA (more or less?), or the culture that would never have been greatly influenced by Greco-Roman. And I find that very interesting, and it's what makes me think the most. Returning to Apollo, who is one of those with the most information (god of knowledge to the rescue!), apparently he took a trip to Japan and became addicted to haiku. And isn't that strange?

Would Apollo have gone to a place far away from "western civilization" and not have been weakened(?) or whatever happens when they go to Alaska? Well, my headcanon on this is that this trip happened after the Second World War and for a very specific reason: The US occupied Japan for a while after the end of the war before Japan became "independent" again, but still with strong American influence.

And then you ask: "Where does that leave Brazil?" Well…About Brazil, from what information we have, it comes again from Apollo. Apparently Athena already thought that this would be an interesting place and learned to speak Portuguese. And well… That led me to some important conclusions:

The gods (at least the Greeks) never went to Portugal, which makes sense, the Romans only occupied it much later when the empire was already Christian, and even then the Lusitanians at the time fought a lot against it (including, despite having Roman influence, Portugal was already influenced by several other places).

Alaska is not a "wild" land, obviously, so the extent of what forms Western culture cannot be that wide. It's not just a bag with the name "Hermes", or a caduceus, or anything that doesn't actually drink from the fountain and know what that fountain is.

Taking this to Brazil, we have a very... interesting cultural scene.

In a very general and simplistic way, Brazil is made up of a mixture of European-Indigenous-African cultures. This was mainly due to how colonization was imposed. In fact, the history of colonial Brazil is very long, so I will mainly focus on the current scenario: The south and southeast of Brazil received a large wave of European migration(for various reasons), mainly Italian and German(which are two places where the Greek gods already were!) and this caused a dichotomy between the cultures seen in the north of the country and the south. And how far do I want to go with this? My headcanon is that this cultural separation causes Brazil to have two areas: to the south where the Greek gods can enter and to the north where they cannot.

Paolo is actually an Italian name (and not the spelling it would commonly have in Brazil, which is Paulo, the Portuguese spelling of the name), coincidence? I don't think so! well, that was it.

#percy jackson #rick riordan #riordanverse #pjo hoo toa #apollo pjo #pjo series #paolo montes

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marz-writes-shit · 9 months

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NAME — Luca Sideris Fiore

GENDER + PRONOUNS — Pangender; any pronouns

NATIONALITY — Greco-Italian

AGE — 24

BIRTHPLACE — Trieste, Italy

BIRTHDAY — ♈ 4/1

OCCUPATION — Color technologist

———

APPEARANCE — They stand at 6'6" with slanted purple eyes, Type V complexion & a blend of Greek & Italian features. His auburn hair usually comes down in scrunched curls, sometimes with tinsel highlights or dyed in neon hues like cyan, pink, purple, etc. Her wardrobe consists of items like hoodies, fishnet stockings/bodices/gloves, skirts & berets because why not. Fae's a collector!

CURRENT GOAL/PURPOSE — Not getting arrested, being the perfect partner to Gabriel.

TALENTS + SKILLS — Dancing, singing (a bit...), cooking that will make Gordon Ramsay weep in ecstasy, identifying & complementing colors, metalworks, chemical handling, ranged & melee weapon wielding, combat strategizing, silat.

INABILITIES — Shutting up about topics they have knowledge on, being careful about wording.

FEARS — Losing any one of the people she loves, going back to jail.

GENERAL PERSONALITY — One word to summarize his outer self is Claire's. I'm not joking. She leads and supports endeavors, offers help 24/7 (even if not really needed), & does their best to be approachable by everyone.

INNER PERSONALITY — Needy, to put it in appropriate words. Fae constantly searches for fulfillment & approval through the "being approachable" route, & will evaporate (/pos) at sudden praise or affection.

———

GENERAL HISTORY — Luca is directly descended from the Fiores, a bloodline known in their town for their alleged immunity to dire situations & essentially being unable to die of anything except old age. Though the "evidence" is in the family tree, nothing is confirmed yet. Luca & her parents moved to America when she was 13 to live closer to their living relatives, which she didn't take too kindly to but adapted in time. At some point during his precollege years, he joined in on the "hood wars" as an independent makeshift arms supplier, balancing his studies with maintaining good relations with clients. Born out of one of those relations was their thing with a woman of a higher rank, who abused them to make sure they achieved their quota. Luca decided enough was enough, & in a fit of fury she killed the woman. Fae thought fae was safe, until faer ass was dragged to a place called The Oasis, where fae met Gabriel & 6 other fellow fugitives. The gang escaped The Oasis, evaded the authorities until they were forced to drop all charges, & now lead somewhat normal lives.

PRESENT LIFE — Working as a color technologist for a clothing company + living with Gabriel!

#𝓸𝓱 𝓼𝓱𝓲𝓽 𝓶𝔂 𝓱𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓼𝓵𝓲𝓹𝓹𝓮𝓭 — 🖋️#𝓬𝓱𝓪𝓻𝓪𝓬𝓽𝓮𝓻𝓼 — 🖋️🧍#character info #original character

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captain-price-unofficially · 2 months

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Italian soldiers in the Modena Legion's assault unit, Greece, winter of 1941.

#greco-italian war #mediterranean theater #wwii

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hotvampireadjacent · 2 years

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emily84 · 9 months

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there are A Bunch of things wrong with the percy jackson disney show, but the one that currently irks me the most is the fucking credits

only usamericans (and some italian nostalgics of the ventennio) can look at greco-roman mythology and think futurism and brutalism as an aesthetic are a good fit to depict it.

i often get my italian card revoked for this, but futurists were a bunch of fucking war glorifying fascists who all too easily bought into the aesthetic(tm) of the ventennio and then helped shape it themselves. "oh but they were not in it for the politics" yes but then in the end they kinda fucking were, innit?

#the books are well written and surprisingly accurate in their depiction of mythlogy #but the fucking bits about 'western civilization' are fucking appalling #and giving the credits this aesthetic does NOT work in its favor #drag the evil mouse #percy jackson

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alatismeni-theitsa · 2 years

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wrt the nationalism i experienced at my old Greek School, which was part of the larger North London Greek Community even if it was technically just outside London, I remember there were big get-togethers of the various schools for the likes of 25th March. Normal stuff really. I remember we were asked to do some art, and as I was a teenager literally called Peace and with a conscientious objector for a dad, I was pretty opposite in values to the general militarism etc around it, so i slightly... took the piss by drawing Bouboulina anime-fied in a way that was Well Drawn but also Not Reverent.

Anyway, the thing that actually shocked me amongst all this (as opposed to just a bit of discomfort and eyerolling). As a fluent speaker, the teachers liked to show me off by writing speeches for me to give at some events. My tutor had written, very carefully, a big speech for me, and usually I begrudgingly went along with them, but i refused to read this one bit, in which I was expected to declare (cw: self harm, implied suicide, blood): <...κι αν χρειαστεί, δεν θα διστάσω να ανοίξω τις φλέβες μου σαν βρύσες για να ποτίσω το δέντρο της ελευθερίας, ζήτω η Ελλάδα, ζήτω η Κύπρος, ζήτω η ελευθερία>. When I refused point-blank, he looked at me with confusion and said - bearing in mind that i was 16 at this time - so wait, you Wouldn't die for your homeland???? Also bearing in mind this was 13 years ago or so and its still pretty embedded in my memory.

Idk how representative this particular anecdote is but as this was intended for a large event i imagine it wasn't expected to be controversial. He was a little extra I think, probably in part to being a Cypriot refugee himself and therefore having a v different emotional relationship w nationality. Despite module options for A levels (final exams/qualifications for subjects for 18yrolds in the UK) that included Greek Lit and Greek Poetry, he'd only teach Cypriot History and Cypriot Geography, which to me, as an Athenian who generally sucks at any kind of History or Geography, didnt really appeal. I only found out there were other modules when I got to the exam and saw them available. Seeing as they were available, I assume he was something of an outlier, as most kids doing Modern Greek exams would probably have been 3rd-gen Cypriots.

Γειααα! Given the Greek history and how we preserve remembrance, I don't think the sentence you mentioned is controversial, either. But as always, there's more nuance to it, so please bear with me! (quick historical recap for people not familiar with recent Greek history + the psychology of Greeks and Greek immigrants)

Under the boot of the Turks, the Bulgarians, the Italians, the English (and who knows who else) Greeks (and other Balkan nations) quickly realized that advocating for people with the same ethnicity was the only way not to be assimilated at best and eradicated at worst. For centuries Greeks weren't heard by their masters (who also called them "chattel" - "ραγιάδες") at times so after 400 and 600 years they said "if you don't advocate for us, if you treat us like this, fuck you, we are going to become independent". Since 1821 they became an example of revolt for all slaves in Europe and the Americas (without claiming they were the only inspiration) and warmly greeted and aided by Haiti, the first nation to abolish slavery.

I don't need to write much about the Balkan wars, ww1, and the Macedonian struggle, where being ethnically Greek automatically made you an enemy. (without saying Greeks were always on the right side of things or never committed any atrocities), or mention the Greco-Turkish War which ended with the peak of the Greek (Armenian and Assyrian, too) genocide.

Additionally, most of us have heard how the Greeks were treated in ww2 under the Bulgarians and under the Italians and Germans when the country was occupied. Or about the Greek programs in USSR (1937) and Turkey (1955 and 1960) to erase the Greek identity that in many ways still goes on to this day. (Pushing for the Turkish and Russian language and customs only, calling the Greek history of oppression "propaganda", erasing names of Greek villages, etc)

Again, being Greek was pretty much a ticket to punishment and oppression.

Cyprus is included in many of these cases as it suffered long from the Turks until 1878 and then it fell to English hands who filled the citizens with hallow promises (and good ol' colonialism) and let them eat each other alive - resulting in the Turkish occupation of half the island. Although all citizens suffered from the turmoil and the Greek side wasn't a saint, it was mostly random average Greeks who were kicked out of their homes when the invasion happened (1974).

War after war created a generational trauma that cannot be shaken away and that can affect someone when they've lived around people who remember their family getting executed by Turks, or Bulgarians. In that climate, fighting for your ethnos to the point of bleeding became something natural, like bleeding for freedom of speech, worker's rights, for lgbt+ rights, refugee rights, and more.

So, yes, your tutor definitely came from this background so I am not surprised he was that way after living through the tensions and being forced to leave his home because he wasn't the "right" ethnicity. His love for his ethnicity differs from the love a native UK or US person has, in the sense that it comes from the side of the oppressed, not the oppressor. (On top of that, he could also be a weird person as a character, since you mentioned he didn't want to teach anything that wasn't related to Cyprus)

There's no coddling up for how much blood was shed, no χρυσό χάπι for what a country does to you when it occupies you. I want to stress a lot how I hate the idea of war and the idealization of war. However, one doesn't exactly speak politely to the new oppressor, who wants to assimilate others and spread their own influence. I haven't seen a nation talk its way out of occupation and the inevitable repression, so to speak. And when the n-th invasion happens for Greece (for our specific hypothetical example) I don't think there will be any change in how things will be resolved. In a way, the school events remind you that, and also that history is a cycle.

With Turkey as a neighbor, things are still politically tense, and many Greeks still fear another invasion. (At the moment I don't think Turkey will attack for many reasons and bc we are NATO allies but I am telling how the situation is) Let's not forget our state has been allied with Russia for a long time and we betrayed that bond with whatever sanctions might come from Russia to us. When Russia invaded Ukraine, most Greek men around me were fearing the draft. From where we stand on the map, we don't exactly feel safe. War is a possibility and many Greeks feel fight-ready psychologically, or jumpy when they hear the news. (I belong to the chill group and still get anxious from time to time) That might color the patriotic statements with an intensity that doesn't feel natural in other nations which may not feel that close to getting a war on their soil.

As for the militarization in the events, the first thing I'll say is that war and the army can be totally rotten and there's a ton of propaganda we must resist, and I'll admit that even the Greek army when doing the defense has crossed the line at times. Buuuut realistically, it's difficult to resist an invasion from - say - the nazis without an armed force. That's why the army has a place in Greek remembrance events.

Thousands of Greeks fought in the frozen Pindus mountains against the Axis force because they all knew what would happen if the enemy got to Greece. And lo and behold, once the fascists took control of my city, thousands were sent to concentration camps where they were incinerated (700 recorded children among them). In just three years, 1/3 of Greece died under occupation. Fighting to prevent that - even if they failed eventually - is objectively valiant. Not to mention, the resisting armies of various countries achieved weakening the Axis forces to the point they finally got beaten.

Of course, there is no need for panic in the present. No objective need or extreme speeches where teens shout "I will shed my blood". I am fully aware of how expressions of the desire to protect what was - again with blood - given can be weird and reach extremes. Such yearly school events are the norm in Greece.

It's worth mentioning that such texts were written (or based on texts written) at the time of the oppression so they are emotionally charged and often carry the bloodshed of war which was very real for the country back then. That's the reason they are not considered controversial. (add to the mix the constant fear of imminent invasion we still live in 2023)

Another reason they may not be considered controversial is that we are used to them but also don't exactly follow them. Such events may be a yearly reality here (multiple times per year) but a kind of mundane one and people go about their lives without so much gravity given to the event statements.

Sure, it's atmospheric and it's good to remember the dead, but it's the usual grind, ya know... We get reminded of the war for a few days in very sentimental ceremonies and then we move on. The majority of Greeks in Greece are unlike your tutor, in spite of taking part in these school festivities and in the school parade. And the teachers are usually chill about it.

It can have negative effects, though. For starters, I believe the student parade accompanying the military was established during the 70's junta where nationalism was often regarded as the solution. So we are not on a good base here 👀

Most Greeks shun extreme militarism (we know what disgusting people lead in our army and what bigoted ideas they hold) and the belief that we are better than other nations. I can totally understand how a 16-year-old could feel uncomfortable when made to read the phrase you were made to read. In Greece, I think most (not all) 16-year-olds would roll their eyes and go along (because we know it's mainly fanfare for the drama 😂) and they wouldn't be phased by it.

For example, my teen self would perhaps read the "κι αν χρειαστεί, δεν θα διστάσω να ανοίξω τις φλέβες μου σαν βρύσες για να ποτίσω το δέντρο της ελευθερίας, ζήτω η Ελλάδα, ζήτω η Κύπρος, ζήτω η ελευθερία" and see some poetry in it BUT I wouldn't actually want to do it 😅 Nobody does and nobody cares, except the few rare radical people, who exist in all countries in equal measure. And we know that the rest of the students just wanted to stay out of class and didn't give two shits about how serious this is supposed to be 😂 We were aware we were preaching to the choir - who already knows this stuff and just wanted to go home. We are kinda desensitized, I think.

But teens also have their own political sentiments, which may clash with how the school festivities are organized, so we should take them into account. The students (and all people) should be free to not partake in events opposite to their ideals. And many teachers, too, are uncomfortable with how these events are conducted and wish to tone them down. There are some teachers here who are more into it so they add more passion and grand statements.

Different areas and families experienced oppression and genocide in various ways, so I don't have a concrete statement fit to dictate how much passion and poetic symbolism they'll use in their remembrance events and how they promise that the same harm will never come to their families again - as long as one doesn't fall into bigoted traps and militarization. Meaning that if the issue makes them sentimental and they want to mention blood and blades against slavery, that's their own thing.

But it also means that you are (obviously) allowed to remember the fallen and celebrate the existence of the nation without bold statements if you don't feel like it. (Or perhaps one doesn't want nations to exist at all so we go to another level altogether, and maybe you don't want a remembering at all, which is another discussion)

Thank you very much for reading all this! I wrote so many things to demonstrate Greek history is quite heavy and complex, which in turn creates complex situations for the people who are left to do the remembering.

Other people who took part in such Greek events, write your opinions down if you like!

#greek history #nationalism #national identity #idk what other tags to put really #greeks of diaspora #slavery #answered #modern Greece

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