#history of westeros

[glamourweaver]

Given the claim that thousands of years earlier, Valyria had sent expeditions to Westeros that got as far as Oldtown and some unknown reversal turned them back and effectively scared them off of conquering that far west… I have to assume it was something related to powers unique to Westeros - which means Old Gods, Weirwoods, Green Seers, Children of the Forest….

I think the Valyerian dragons were possessed to turn on their dragon lords.

[rhiawriter]

Really enjoyed this deep dive into the similarities of Dune and ASOIAF on the History of Westeros podcast. There's tons of great comparisons on there that I had never considered before.

[hollowwhisperings]

The Average Life Expectancy of Targaryen Monarchs (& other studies in age): Part 1/?

In 300 years of rule, the Targaryen Dynasty of Westeros had 17 monarchs and 9 civil wars (crusades against Dorne not here included). Half of the 14* Targaryen monarchs did not live past 50: none lived to be 70. The longest reign for a monarch was 55 years: the shortest was half a year. This post will brush over the contents of each reign & ruler, looking instead at the mathematics of their lives. As with the post on Targaryen Sister-Wives of Westeros, the ages of concern will be of their times of marriage, of parenthood, of ascension to the throne, and at death. In this post, brief biographies of each monarch are given to show the line of succession & note causes of death. Following posts on averages will be made on: overall life expectancy and "natural" vs killed; ages when wed, willingly or otherwise; age of parenthood, with commentary on in/fertility and the nature of child marriages; age when crowned & the length of reigns (natural & "interrupted"), with thoughts on "kingliness" from a social, mathematical context. There may also be a Joke Post on "First Blood" and comparison posts on the life expectancies of monarchs vs consorts (& whether it can reflect on House Targaryen as a whole or Westeros in a bubble).

*Within these meta posts, Rhaenyra I & Aegon II are jointly considered the 6th "king" of Westeros. while i also refer to the conquerors Visenya & Rhaenys as monarchs in their own right, studies of them exist on posts regarding Queens, Sister-Wives &/or Consorts.

Monarchs of the Targaryen Dynasty, In Brief:

AEGON THE CONQUEROR, husband of his sisters VISENYA and RHAENYS. Father of Aenys I (by Rhaenys) & Maegor I (by Visenya). Ruled for 47 years with his sister-wives & Lord Orys Baratheon (alleged half-brother) as his hand. Died of "old" age.

AENYS I, husband of Alyssa Velaryon (a cousin). Father of 6 children, including Princess Rhaena, Jaehaerys I & Queen Alysanne. Died of illness, having ruled for 4 years.

MAEGOR I, husband of Ceryse Hightower (daughter of the High Septon), Alys Harroway, Tyanna of the Tower, Princess Rhaena (his niece & eldest child of Aenys I), Elinor Costayne & Jeyne Westerling. No issue. Found dead on the Iron Throne by Queen Elinor. Ruled for 6 years, 6 months & 6 days (not accounting for his time as his brother's Lord Hand).

JAEHAERYS I, husband of his sister Alysanne. Fathered 13 children, outliving all but 2. Died of "old" age after a reign of 55 years.

VISERYS I, husband of Aemma Arryn (cousin) then Alicent Hightower (daughter of his Hand). Had 1 surviving child by Queen Aemma & 4 more children by Queen Alicent. Died of illness after 24 years of rule.

RHAENYRA I, wife of Ser Laenor Velaryon (a cousin) then Prince Daemon (her uncle). Had 3 sons while wed to Ser Laenor, 2 more & a stillborn daughter by Prince Daemon. Was usurped by her younger brother upon their father's death, resulting in a civil war. Ruled from the Iron Throne for half a year. Killed.

6. AEGON II, husband of Helaena (his sister). Fathered 3 legitimate children and an unknown number of bastards. Ruled intermittently for 2 years. Assassinated.

7. AEGON III, husband of Jaehaera (daughter of his uncle, Aegon II) then Daenaera Velaryon (a cousin). Father of 5 (including Daeron I, Baelor I & Daena the Defiant). Ruled for 25 years (initially under regency) before dying of illness.

8. DAERON I, a boy king. Ruled for 4 years but spent most of them warring against Dorne. Killed at parley.

9. BAELOR I, husband of Daena the Defiant (his sister) until becoming king & his anulling the marriage. No issue. Fasted himself to death after a reign of 11 years.

10. VISERYS II, estranged husband of Larra Rogare. Father of Aegon IV, Queen Naerys & Ser Aemon the Dragonknight. King for little over a year but having ruled for ~30 as the Lord Hand of his brother & 2 nephews.

11. AEGON IV, husband of Naerys (his sister). Father of 2 legitimate children and many more bastards (including Daemon Blackfyre, Bloodraven, Bittersteel & Shiera Seastar). Ruled for 12 years before dying of illness.

12. DAERON II, husband of Myriah Martell of Dorne. Father of 4 sons, including Baelor Breakspear, Aerys I & Maekar I. Ruled for 25 years, dying abruptly during the Great Spring Sickness of 209 AC.

13. AERYS I, husband of Elinor Penrose (his cousin). Their marriage was unconsumated. Ruled for 5 years before dying of illness.

14. MAEKAR I, husband of Dyanna Dayne. Father of 6, including Aerion Brightflame, Maester Aemon of the Night's Watch, & Aegon V. Killed in battle after a reign of 12 years.

15. AEGON V, husband of Betha Blackwood. Father of 5, including Prince Duncan the Small, Jaehaerys II & Queen Shaera. Died at the Tragedy of Summerhall after a reign of 25 years.

16. JAEHAERYS II, husband of Shaera (his sister). Father of Aerys II & Queen Rhaella. Died of illness after a reign of 2 years.

17. AERYS II, husband of Rhaella (his sister). Only 3 of his children lived to maturity: Princes Rhaegar & Viserys, Daenerys Stormborn. Killed after 21 years of (his Hand Tywin Lannister's) rule, ending the Targaryen Dynasty.

(...though it IS true that House Baratheon has Targaryen heritage, renewed every few generations & thus present in the family of Robert Baratheon: as Kings Joffrey & Tommen are Robert's alleged children, they too are supposedly Targaryen. A Targaryen in blood is not a Targaryen in name, however, as evidenced by Robert's freely siring bastards despite simultaneously calling for the genocide of "dragonspawn")

[hufflepufferine]

Regardez "George R.R. Martin on Canon" sur YouTube

Never forget that we make this sh!t up!

[margoshansons]

Dreamfyre you’re still the mother of Daenerys’s dragons in my heart and will be until GRRM comes out of his hole to tell me otherwise

[thaliajoy-blog]

Why isn't it more talked about how there's canonically an archmaester who wrote a very, very big Book about women ruling in the aftermath of the Dance. It's a detail that rules so much. A guy literally talking about hundreds of widows ruling parts of Westeros after the war. Why not much talk about Johanna Lannister, born Westerling, Sharis Footly, Lady Tyrell, Samantha Tarly, Elenda Baratheon born Caron, Sabitha Frey, Alys Rivers in her own way...a tide of ruling girls because a bunch of guys weren't cool with a girl ruling & got themselves killed trying to stop it. That's some massive irony.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

in asoiaf, what is the order of succession for nobles and for the throne (as i’ve read they are different)?

They are indeed different. In most of Westeros, they use traditional Andal succession, known in our world as male-preference primogeniture. This puts women at the back of the line, so to speak, but does not exclude them. A lord's eldest son inherits, even if he has older daughters, followed by the remainder of his sons by age, and then his daughters, and then would move up to the previous generations with his brothers and then his sisters. "A daughter comes before an uncle," as they say. For example, with the Starks, Ned's succession is Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya. (Benjen is excluded for being a man of the Night's Watch; Jon is excluded by being a bastard and a man of the Night's Watch. But of course there's complications.) This succession also includes the heirs of the heirs, so for example Hoster Tully's succession is Edmure-Catelyn-Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya-Lysa-Robert-Brynden.

Note there are exceptions to this, even after King Jaehaerys I Targaryen codified the laws across Westeros. Sometimes these exceptions appear to be cultural. For example, somehow House Stark has never had a ruling lady in all its reported 8000 years of existence, and the time we know they should have, Cregan Stark's eldest (and late lamented) son Rickon's eldest daughter Sansa was (forcefully?) married to Cregan's eldest son from his third marriage, her half-uncle Jonnel, who became the lord instead. Another example - after Balon Greyjoy dies, a maester insists that "By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law", and Aeron Greyjoy dismisses it contemptuously as "green land law", and thinks the Iron Islands will never follow a woman.

Sometimes these exceptions appear to be just plain misogyny - like when Big and Little Walder Frey discuss the succession of the Twins, they don't count the women in the line. Mind you the Walders are children and may not know true details; but time will tell if Edwyn's daughter Walda will inherit or if her uncle Black Walder will seize the Twins. (Probably the latter.) Of course little Walda also has the problem of being a child heiress, but child heiresses have become ruling ladies before -- like Jeyne Arryn, whose inheritance was contested multiple times by her male cousins -- or like Cerelle Lannister, who inherited at the age of 3 and ruled for a year before dying suddenly and her uncle Gerold became lord. Um. It's hard out there for a girl. 😭

And in Dorne, they use a different form of succession entirely -- Rhoynar tradition, what we call absolute primogeniture. Much simpler, there the eldest child inherits regardless of sex. So Doran's heirs are Arianne-Quentyn-Trystane-{Elia}-{Rhaenys}-{Aegon}-Oberyn. Of course, Dorne has its own exceptions: per GRRM, a few houses in the mountains, least affected by the Rhoynar, may sometimes follow Andal tradition instead, which is likely the reason why Cletus Yronwood was considered the heir instead of his older sister Ynys. (Mind you, Cletus is dead now, and Anders Yronwood only has daughters left, so sucks to be a man compared to Criston Cole, doesn't it?) And Arianne was worried that Doran was going to have Quentyn inherit instead of her, but she didn't know that Doran was actually planning to make her queen of Westeros, which would take her out of the Sunspear succession (in the same way that Myriah Martell married Daeron II Targaryen and her younger brother Maron became Prince of Dorne).

Now. The Targaryen succession to the throne is a different matter. For them, they've had the competing issues of tradition, king's choice, sexist lords voting sexism, even more tradition, and politics. (Sooo much politics.) Putting the rest of this behind a cut because it was already a long post but it got longer:

From the start, as far as we know the pre-Conquest Targaryens in Westeros used traditional Andal succession. (It's unknown how succession was handled in Valyria, or if there was a difference between the dragonrider families and any others.) There is a brief mention that Aenar the Exile's grandchildren, Aegon and Elaena, ruled together, but every other Lord of Dragonstone was indeed a lord, and hardly any daughters are even referred to. By the time we get to the Conquest trio, we know that Visenya was the eldest child, and yet her younger brother Aegon was Lord of Dragonstone. And later, Aegon was the king, with his sister-wives as his queens (though unlike later queens, they sat the Iron Throne and handled day-to-day governance of the realm).

The first time we see an issue with this succession tradition was when King Aenys died and his half-brother Maegor usurped (and later killed) Aenys's eldest son Aegon. By Andal tradition, Aegon and his sister-wife Rhaena's eldest daughter Aerea should have succeeded after Maegor died (he considered her his heir until he had children of his own), but instead Aegon's younger brother Jaehaerys became king. Political issues there: Jaehaerys actually successfully contested Maegor's rule, he was a strong teen boy with a sword and a dragon where Aerea was a girl of six who'd been in hiding most of her life, her mother Rhaena had been forcefully married to Maegor and had few supporters, Aerea had been named heir by Maegor specifically to cut out Jaehaerys, etc. Though note Aerea was considered Jaehaerys's heir... until he had children of his own. And as for Rhaena (Aenys's eldest child), she never actually vied for the throne after Maegor's death, but later in her life she bitterly told Jaehaerys "you have my throne, content yourself with that."

As for Jaehaerys and his children, from the start there were problems, when Queen Alysanne expected their eldest child Daenerys to be queen one day (why Alysanne expected the throne to follow absolute primogeniture at this point is unknown), and Jae was like, sure, our second child Aemon will be king and she'll be his wife! But Daenerys died as a child, and as for Aemon, he died too, albeit as a father of a grown daughter with a child of her own on the way. And there you have Jae sexism part 2, instead of naming Rhaenys as his heir, he instead named his second living son, Baelon, as his heir. So here's the precedent where the throne deliberately denied Andal succession tradition, and instead went with king's choice.

Then 9 years after Aemon's death, Baelon also died, and Jaehaerys held the Great Council of 101 AC, for all the lords of Westeros to decide between all of Jaehaerys's potential heirs. In the end, the final choice was between Aemon's daughter Rhaenys's son Laenor (Rhaenys herself was also in competition, though her claim was dismissed early) and Baelon's son Viserys. By a large percentage, the lords chose Viserys. According to maesters,

In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendants.

This female-exclusive tradition is known in our world as agnatic primogeniture, or Salic law. However, this "iron precedent" was not that iron even from the beginning. Viserys and his wife Aemma only had one living child, Rhaenyra, so Viserys's brother Daemon was considered his heir until a son was born. And, well, if you've seen the first episode of HOTD you know what happened, because of Daemon's fuckup Viserys deliberately dismissed him, "disregarding the precedents set by [...] the Great Council in 101", but used the precedent of king's choice to name Rhaenyra as his heir and make all the lord of Westeros vow to obey that decision. Again, you've seen what happened next -- Viserys then remarried and had sons, whose grandfather used the Andal tradition to try to make Viserys name as heirs, but he refused to bypass Rhaenyra. In the end, though, when the Green Council formed after Viserys's death,

Ser Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath. I was a child at the time.” Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92, then discoursed at length about Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, and the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter.

So the law cited to name Aegon II king was one king's choice vs another king's choice, as well as Andal tradition and the "iron precedent" of the Great Council. And thus we got the Dance of the Dragons, Rhaenyra vs Aegon II.

But what about afterwards? What does Fire & Blood say about Aegon III, how did the maesters decide he inherited, through Aegon II (as his only living male relative), as Daemon's son, or as Rhaenyra's son? Well, it doesn't actually explain this point! The moment Aegon II died, Corlys Velaryon's men were freeing Aegon the Younger from his hostage prison, and then when the late Rhaenyra's (finally) winning army showed up at the gates of King's Landing, we just have Corlys saying, "The king is dead, long live the king." No maester commentary on the precedent at all, much to the frustration of backseat lawyers and historians in the fandom, who keep arguing one way or the other, or the various fandom teams, who keep arguing which side actually won.* 😅

*The answer is nobody. Nobody won.

And note that because Aegon III had no known living male relatives at the time (his brother Viserys was missing and presumed dead), his half-sisters Baela and Rhaena were considered his heirs, again despite this supposed "iron precedent". Leading to one of my favorite quotes from F&B:

Yet it was Grand Maester Munkun who put an end to the debate when he said, “My lords, it makes no matter. They are both girls. Have we learned so little from the slaughter? We must abide by primogeniture, as the Great Council ruled in 101. The male claim comes before the female.” Yet when Ser Tyland said, “And who is this male claimant, my lord? We seem to have killed them all,” Munkun had no answer but to say he would research the issue.

Though Aegon III's council and regents really wanted Baela to have a proper son, and when she rejected their (fat old guy) intended husband and instead eloped with a legitimized bastard, they wasted no time getting her sister Rhaena married to someone suitable, though she actually chose her husband, an older knight she'd become friends with in the Vale. And then Unwin Peake killed off Aegon II's daughter Jaehaera in order to marry Aegon III to his own daughter, and Baela and Rhaena did an end run with a new wife for their brother, a very young girl he didn't touch for 10 years... Of course, all this plotting came to nothing when Viserys did show up alive, so the lords could be satisfied with no need for an icky girl queen, the very idea.

The next time we see any competing issues of precedent for the succession to the throne was after Aegon III's second son, Baelor the Blessed, died without any children. By rights, per Andal tradition, his successor should have been his sister (and ex-wife) Daena. However, because Baelor had imprisoned Daena and her sisters in the Maidenvault for 10 years, they had few supporters, complicated by the fact that Daena had also recently had a bastard and refused to name the father. And of course, the Dance was still on everyone's mind as it had ended only 40 years before. So,

The precedents of the Great Council of 101 and the Dance of the Dragons were therefore cited, and the claims of Baelor's sisters were set aside. Instead the crown passed to his uncle, the King's Hand, Prince Viserys.

And Viserys II was followed by his son Aegon IV and so on. After this point, we do not have any real questions about gender and succession for a while. (Though some wonder, when Daemon Blackfyre vied for the throne, if he ever cited his mother Daena's stolen claim, in addition to being the unstated choice of his father Aegon IV. Also Aerys I named his niece Aelora as his heir after her brother-husband Aelor died, but she also died before Aerys did.) By the time of the Great Council of 233 AC, the claim of Vaella, only child of Maekar's eldest son Daeron, was dismissed immediately, though note she was also considered "simple", and Maekar's fourth son came to the throne as Aegon V.

And then in 283 AC, Robert Baratheon took the throne from the Targaryens. While many believe he took the throne by conquest (killing King Aerys II Targaryen's heir Rhaegar, while Aerys was killed by Jaime Lannister), maesters cite the fact that Robert was the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V! So where is that "iron precedent" now, with Robert as the descendant of a Targaryen woman? And Robert's brother Stannis considers his daughter Shireen to be his heir, and people in Westeros in general consider Robert's daughter Myrcella to be his heir (after her brothers Joffrey and Tommen). Not to mention the fact that (claimant king in exile) Viserys considered Dany his heir, naming her Princess of Dragonstone.

So. Theoretically by the time of the main books, this "no women allowed ever" precedent for royal succession is still out there. In practice, however, the throne currently either follows Andal tradition of sons before daughters (but yes, including daughters), or the "whoever has the larger army" tradition of old. And that will be what truly decides the question of Aegon (or Jon) vs Daenerys, whether Rhaegar's line was disinherited by Aerys II or whether any maesters pop up to say "but iron precedent!" or what. Fire and blood, as always.

[i-am-mldy]

I just adore how the show emphasized that Meleys and Rhaenys had a chance to turn back with their lives, but instead they looked into each other's eyes and knew exactly what they had to do — turn back and face the old bitch head on to do some real fucking damage, fully knowing they might never get the chance to escape again

[lovedreamer11]

Do you know what's ironic? Aegon did not allow historians to recognize Rhaenyra as queen, and the history of Viserys's reign and the war were described by Septon Eustace, who hated Rhaenyra, but this still did not make Aegon any better in the eyes of people.

Years later in Asoiaf, no one cares about Alicent and Helaena, who were the "true queens", and Rhaenyra is remembered as the mother of two kings. Most often, when one of the characters remembers Aegon, the first thing that is associated with him is his brutal murder of his own sister in front of her child. Also, no one himself remembers the “most beautiful dragon” Sunfire, while Syrax was mentioned by Tyrion.

"Aenys was weak and Maegor was cruel and Aegon II was grasping” Aegon as a king is mentioned along with such bad kings as Aenys and Maegor.

[horizon-verizon]

The fact that so many people think the Starks are honorable anticolonial fighters and the pinnacle of morality is absolutely insane, they literally built a massive wall to isolated a bunch of people they considered as “savages”, they hunted and slaughtered the Free Folk, the Children of the Forest, giants, exterminated whole houses and clans and took their daughters as “prizes” while conquering the North, etc. The Blackwoods were originally from the North and ruled most of the wolfswood, before being driven out by the Starks and forced to flee south. The Starks are the OG COLONIZERS in ASOIAF.

Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever. — The World of Ice and Fire – The North: The Kings of Winter.

I recently finished a Tiktok series that will probably just be as lost to the internet if we lose TikTok but I had to get out in response to a particular creator who bashes Rhaenyra while also proclaiming themselves as black stans. I think they are really more black stans because they hate Alicent personally and feels the thrill of the side-taking, but that's neither here nor there. 😏

To quote one of my mutuals here [rhaenin]:

It just rings so familiar to the way so many people view the other in real life. Because the Targaryens are overtly, and intentionally written as the other. It's the reason so many people identify with them, and it's the very same reason that other people vilify them. They're not just the in-universe other to the 'default' culture established in the text, but they're also given characteristics that we, the reader and audience, can recognize as other and even sometimes anathema to Western Christian culture. To paraphrase the annoying people that love to cite Ramsay when they feel like it: If you look at a morally complex family surrounded by other morally complex families in a morally complex world in a story that's famed for seeking to challenge your underlying assumptions, and think that their association with fire and brimstone is meant to signify their singular satanic evilness, rather than say... challenge that very Eurocentric assumption, you haven't been paying attention. This vilification mindset where the Targaryens are the singular evil of Westeros is so common to people who seem to want to consume ASoIaF without engaging with the criticisms of the Eurocentric worldview of history at the heart of it. And they end up using the convenient “others” to project all the wrongs of that world onto so they don't need to examine it any deeper. ........... It comes from the same place with how someone pointed out that the baffling bastardphobia that would have medieval peasants giving the side eye is so often people jumping at the chance to “cosplay” as bigots who base their arguments in misogyny and bio-essentialism. Because it's an acceptable channel to indulge in that mindset in a way that they'd often otherwise question, or at least hold back from expressing out of caution.

[thefourteenflames]

What Laena Velaryon would have worn...

(RENAISSANCE PERIOD)

[sunnysideaeggs]

I just realised that Aegon’s line might not have actually ended, it did end with his children with Helaena and the history books. But in the series we were shown his bastard child and Ser Arryk presumed there would be many more. So if any of them survived and their descendants survived Aegon’s line could still exist in game of thrones but they would be part of the smallfolk

oh i love the idea of some random white haired families in the main line of asoiaf, just chilling in king’s landing. some of them like to bathe in really hot water and others have weird dreams they just ignore lol.

but i think most importantly, aegon’s impact on his world is more than just the children he had. he mirrors some great rulers who didn’t have children (or survived them all), like alexander the great or elizabeth the first. even characters like daeron the first and aemon the dragonknight never had children but they’re remembered often because of their actions. daenerys will probably never have children of her own but she will be remembered for centuries to come for her deeds and dragons.

like it or not, westeros was never the same after aegon the second, just like it never would be the same after aegon the first. he had the most striking dragon in westeros, and the closest bond with him. he wrote the laws of succession in blood (unfair as they were), he buried all his enemies, he died with a crown on his head.

[wordybee]

Lurking in ASOIAF fandom spaces has taught me two things:

1. The delay on those final books has gone on so long that people are coming up with some truly bonkers-balls theories. Some real "accidentally watched part of a flat-earther video and now my youtube algorithm is trying to eat itself" stuff.

and

2. Brienne being descended from Duncan the Tall always makes the lists of bonkers-balls theories. Despite it pretty much being confirmed by GRRM. Despite this not being outlandish at all. They treat it with the same legitimacy as the theory that Varys is a merman.

...why.

[carebooks]

i feel like harrenhal is weird enough to get its own limited series spin-off, like a dark fantasy horror type along the lines of ahs and the haunting of hill house, haunting of bly manor

[selkiewife]

BLADE IN HAND

Histories & Lore of Westeros- Greyjoy Rebellion

[lady-corrine]

Ryan Condal if you make at least one single Targaryen from A knight of the seven kingdoms to say “my great-grandmother queen Rhaenyra”, I'll forgive all your crimes. 🥲