#hotd characterization

[horizon-verizon]

I find it funny that TG is bugging out about Rhaenyra saying “a son for a son” because Jaehaerys ended up being murdered but if you wanna get technical, Rhaenyra lost two children, Lucerys AND Visenya. Technically, she’s owed another sooooo. Jaehaery’s death didn’t phase Aemond at all, she wants her son’s killer punished rightfully.

I personally was confused by the son-for-a-son…bc it was basically a repetition of her in epi 1 when she was like "I want Aemond", and I thought that she'd get over all that as the show has thus far made it seem with her choosing of her own free will to meet up with the woman who is protecting the person who killed her son and committed kinslaying....but then I remembered this was HotD and it all made nonsense.

[mutter-of-dragons]

One criticism I have about the hotd adaptation, especially now that we're going to see more of Aegon II in action, is that I can't fully buy on his hatred of Rhaenyra because of what happened to Jaeherys. Even him cursing her felt jarring. The writers spent so much time bulding Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship that when it comes down to Rhaenyra and her siblings, it's pretty much non-existent. And they HAD time to show us that. I can buy Aemond resenting his older half-sister for the loss of his eye, since her son was responsible for it, even though he - and everyone else both in team green stans and in-universe - ignores the fact that he was the one who was ready to bash Jace's head with a stone. So there's also that. Yet, when it comes to Aegon, even seeing the cast's interviews where Tom talks about how Aegon had always resented his sister for being the favorite, why don't we see more that? Season 1 had Aegon barely acknowledge her existence and vice-versa, even when his mother was berating and slapping the shit outta him when he was young. I can see clearly him (and Aemond, and maybe Helaena if she cares) resenting Viserys for favoring Rhaenyra, but not to the point of "oh, there she goes, father's favorite child. I hate her because father doesn't pay attention to me when she's around". So yeah, I have a lot of trouble trying to buy the conflict between siblings that was born out of a plot to usurp Rhaenyra, and a misuderstanding where his son became the target of assassination that was meant for Aemond (carried out by two very incompetent people, btw. Daemon should've tried to infiltrate that goddamn castle if he wanted the service done properly. Not to mention Ser Idiot Incel Crispy being the worst kingsguard ever getting a promotion after his absence resulted in the death of Jaeherys. Oh well, the woes of being doomed by canon, I guess.). If they ever interacted in season 1 instead of just sharing/existing in the same space at the same time, I would have buy the anger, the hatred, the pain. Now Aegon going along with Crispy's plan of sending Arryk to Dragonstone, which failed miserabliy and resulted in both twins deaths btw, just makes him sound stupid. I can't even blame Otto for being so frustrated with him (that would also be another topic on itself).

[bohemian-nights]

emma is really very good characterized as a targaryen, I think she's even much better than milly in the characterization (young Rhaenyra's wig is horrible) but i must say that emma and matt really don't have chemistry for me, she has charisma with olivia, and Milly and Matt are too creepy for me guys, I'm sorry...

I think visually Emma looks great as a Targaryen and perhaps if Emma was playing a different type of Targaryen(maybe someone along the lines of Visenya) I’d see it characterization-wise as well, but so far the performance is not like book!Rhaenyra.

I do agree that Milly’s performance is overhyped (she’s new so that isn’t a knock to her, but I wasn’t blown away by what I saw on screen) and I’m not seeing the chemistry people are talking about with Milly and Matt either.

It is creepy, especially that brothel scene 🤢(and it’s supposed to be creepy so the people saying it’s not really are an interesting bunch).

[horizon-verizon]

With Rhaenyra becoming this "peace-loving" person PLUS how we know Rhaenyra's fate, it's also them perpetuating the ideas that:

after too much loss & grief, a woman defaults to "cultish" leadership to "trick" others into following her through a a "savior" complex when she "falsely" believes she's fulfilling a "false" prophecy by her father's word---thus she must need another male--better yet, a male relative--to put her down and save the world

GoT Tyrion, S8, regarding Dany: "she killed people and we cheered her for it" -- Rhaenyra becomes a lesson in fanaticism as if just wanting & acting to have what men are socially graced AND WAS ALREADY BESTOWED LEGALLY BY THE LAST RULER is "fanatical" OR that women are so uniquely predisposed to "madness" and irrationality when men enact violence or unjust action against them

women MUST have complexes about their gender OR just be NLOGs like Cersei order to be JUSTIFIED or be ABLE to want power or positions of such (Rhaenyra was no such thing)

"wronged women are...monstrous" [pic below & LINK]

LINK to article

In fact, the show is not actually doing any favors for Dany by confirming what was already obvious since the very first book. Whom they ruined and vilified in S8.

They are taking this approach of Daemon seeing Dany in visons and confirming she is Azor Ahai bc she is their most popular character of all time and they want to retain the fanbase for more ASoIaF projects. And to reaffirm their decision to make her this fanatical, power hungry, megalomaniac who Euron Greyjoy is actually like in this bloodstone Emperor vs Amethyst Empress/Azor Ahai Dany truly is parallel to.

They will either/both make it as if Dany was always meant to be Azor Ahai AND Nissa Nissa (the "sacrifice") and dies to "save" the world. not be the savior who lives and actively saves the world by her own merits/actions even if not totally by herself. that Dany will be the material, not the actor.

Two of the many reasons I hate House of the Dragon:

-- They're doubling down on GOT's vitriol that "the best ruler is the one that doesn't want to rule" that they used to vilify Dany in the end.

-- They made Alicent and Rhaenyra into these peace-loving characters, and gave many of Dany's peace-loving qualities to them. Which led to a bunch of show-watchers (and plenty of book readers that don't know the books well) to believe that Rhaenyra and Alicent are better queens/more peaceful/more reasonable than Dany. These fans end up loving Rhaenyra and Alicent while hating Dany, even though the reasons they love show!Rhaenyra and show!Alicent are precisely the qualities that the showrunners stole from book!Dany and gave to them.

[horizon-verizon]

Now I did not watch the new S2 episode. I'm hearing abt it from people who have. And pretty much all the leaks were authentic regarding B&C.

I wrote abt the Sophie's Choice of bk!Helaena in the bk!B&C HERE, when someone asked me abt it. The other unserious things abt Blood & Cheese of HotD is that in the bk:

the psychological torture Helaena goes thru could either be Cheese trying to have fun (unlikely, they were on a "timer") OR it is Daemon reverting, perverting, etc. Rhaenyra's loss--Rhaenyra was not there to witness Lucerys or even be able to have his remains....Helaena will participate in her own son's murder, so to speak

bk!Cheese was very knowledgesble abt where to go and how, which tunnels to use...which is why he was chosen in the first place and why his "job "profession" (ratcatcher) is so important, bc these guys know where to lay traps in hidden places for rats -> to make as if Cheese is ignorant as to how to lead Blood into the castle makes as if Daemon was more incompetent and careless than either have been canonically shown to be, even when they are angry or aggrieved

also, regarding show!Helaena giving offering her necklace and very quickly pointing out which kid was a boy as if she could not wait to abandon Jaehaerys while bk!Helaena offered her very life before she was forced to choose any kid is just disrespectful not only to her intelligence but neurodivergent people. Esp since if we argue she had some sort of autism or what have you. To rely on one's neurodivergence to explain why they--compared to the book where she was more active--didn't take that action is a cop out and is almost a generalization. Please. Again, she's supposedly a dreamer and has had access to such dreams since her preteen yrs in the show, so it's likely she had known what was going to happen in this moment if she also had known abt "beast beneath the boards", "spiders (the war)", etc. No HotD didn't show us more moments exactly proving that, but since they also had her do absolutely nothing with those visions like the original Cassandra actually tried to do, no one can tell me it didn't happen. In fact, I can say it's bc she never actually does anything with her dreams (and therefore we'll never really know if she had B&C "dreams" so I can cont with this hypothetical, as its likelihood is stronger than it should have been) that I can say that even her own kids dying doesn't seem to faze her enough to make a plan of sorts to herself? Or to be able to think as she tried in the bk when they forced her to choose. Show!Helaena has "dreams" (they aren't even dragon dreams) but unlike Cassandra, she does nothing with them. Again, it very likely B&C appeared to her in her so-called "dreams", she does what she always does--nothing...but not only does she finally decide to do something, she thought a fucking necklace would help her or her kids and this is as much as we get for her in this show? We had the opp to display a fuller character apart from her emotional remove and suggestion of prophecy, and when we do, we only see her like this? They traveled all this way, risked getting caught and viciously executed, to kill ONE mutherfucking child, and these writers really thought that it was a good idea to have Helaena do this, think this would work even an iota? No, all this was such lazy, cheap writing bc the writers decided that her just having visions made up for her small character in the orig tale and that they didn't have to do else for her--they started and left her half done, it seems. Let's say the B&C dream never appeared to her; this is till the writers taking away the agency I already described above in the link---Helaena is a nothing character whose dreams still mean nothing to no one expect people who want to feel smart the way it exists in the show itself. Helaena has always been a victim, but they made her more abominably victimized...as I already said they do HERE & HERE. She's just around, waiting to be abused by the script and those around her for plot convenience's sake. There is no substance or personhood to her, she is only a purpose.

So, love that for Ryan. Seemed lukewarm.

But what did anyone expect, seeing as the same writers responsible for Aemond's "accident" (having tried for months to convince us that this was exusable even with it not being his intention to kill), for Alicent sincerely forgiving Rhaenyra after she had been on her ass and abusing her and her kids (and threatening their lives) for years and almost stabbing out Luke's eye, for Rhaenyra somehow being so affected by a stupid ass page of Nymeria (of all people!, you made Alicent pull out this page of a woman who lead armies to conquest as a consummate leader in her own right, who lead said armies to make sure her people survived, in order to dissuade Rhaenyra from fighting for what she sees as her birthright/designated seat of power and to also make sure her family/unit survives?!) to derail her from really confronting any of them in battle...🤷🏿‍♂️

[daeneryscel]

Princess Rhaenys was born on the seventh day of the seventh moon of the year, which the septons judged to be highly auspicious. Large and fierce, she had the black hair of her Baratheon mother and the pale violet eyes of her Targaryen father. As the firstborn child of the Prince of Dragonstone, many hailed her as next in line for the Iron Throne after her father. When Queen Alysanne held her in her arms for the first time, she was heard to call the little girl “our queen to be.”

Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys towards the foe.

A body believed to be Rhaenys Targaryen was later found beside the carcass of her dragon, but it was so blackened that no one could be sure it was her. Beloved daughter of Lady Jocelyn Baratheon and Prince Aemon Targaryen, faithful wife to Lord Corlys Velaryon, mother and grandmother, the Queen Who Never Was lived fearlessly, and died amidst blood and fire. She was fifty-five years old.

[horizon-verizon]

Master Post of Anti-Criston Cole-ism

He was Never Raped or SA-ed

A) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the Actor and Writers

i)

🔗LINK to Entertainment Weekly Article that Describes Frankel & Writers Making this Scene Consensual Sex Scenes where Criston "Chooses" to Forget his Vows

Neither of these reveal that either the actor nor the writers or directors wrote the sex scene to be something Criston was afraid of or didn't want. The way it's talked about, with people "discovering" each other and themselves shows consent and enjoyment. Frankel wanted to play out his fear of Criston's own desire to break his own vows and facing the guilt of that; Rhaenyra never pressured him into anything.

REMINDER: He's still not "commonborn" nor Dornish, since:

he has a last name, which peasants don't have AND his father/house is House Cole, stewards of the Dondarrions...the Tyrells at one point were stewards to House Gardner in the Reach & they were still nobles of that time, stewards don't mean full fledged "servants"

Blackhaven is in the Stormland part of the Dornish Marches, not the Dornish part of the Dornish Marches...Samwell Tarly's family's castle is in the foothill of a part of the Dornish Marches, ....Barristan Selmy's family's castle, Harvest Hill, is based in the Dornish Marches in Stormlander territory, so is Barristan Selmy Dornish? Cole is a Stormlander!

Marchers hate Dornish people more than other nonDornish Westerosi do...Criston said his dad was a steward of the nonDornish Dondarrions...HotD has never shown us whether either of his parents are Dornish by origin so what proof do we have he is Dornish even in the show?!!! And we see no discrimination (hint or overt) the court has against Cole...

lets' say that Cole was Dornish...the Velaryons are black and realisitically, even rich Black people do not manage to avoid subtle racial discrimination (there's a black woman on TikTok from a wealthy family that talks about it, idk her name)...so if Criston faces racism and the Velaryons don't either the writers are incompetent or don't know racism

Not only is this a misreading of what the Dornish Marches are on the HotD writers'/producers' part, it's a misreading or understanding of race either in medieval times or the modern day, AND people have tried to use a supposed racial disparity b/t Rhaenyra (Valyrian-Targ princess) to argue that Cole (the racially-inferior) felt racial pressure as well to comply to sleep with her and avoid censure or punishment if she blabs...as if his race would give him the right to sleep with a teen girl who some have argued was also very drunk here-- even if Criston was Dornish!

ii) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the actual Episode

People don't know what SA or rape actually looks like...can we just, please?...

B) "If the Roles were Reversed" [HotD AND the Original Story]

i)

Rhaenyra didn't "make" him do anything b/c she doesn't have the ability to take on that new level of risk. So much protest using the "if the genders were reversed", and yet no acknowledgment or breakdown of what their respective unique positions are.

A male heir =/= a female heir in terms of power and privilege, gender really matters even here, as every source on the matter--whether HotD or the original story--has made every single minute to point out and emphasize...the only reason we are even talking about the Dance is that it was a group of people arguing that no woman should go before a man inn any line of succession which comes from the belief that women are inherently insufficient military leaders. And female chastity is a whole concept in of itself where the woman/girl must be sexually "pure" as to ensure that a man's and his family's lineage remains "proven" to be inherited by someone blood-connected to them. To preserve that wealth and privilege. etc., within that family. Female chastity - female "obedience" or submission to male supremacy.

Women could never be knights so they can never be Kingsguard.

Brienne is not a knight...yet[?], and she exists YEARS after the Dance; even if there were female monarchs before, check out real history for how medieval people regarded female rulers if they didn't happen to be very "good" ones...I mean just check out Juana I of Castile!

We can never equalize these situations in matter of gender because this society structures on the inequality of its genders.

A World of Ice and Fire shows us glaring examples of women over men being brutally sidelined or physically attacked to make way for male leaders or candidates (Shiera Blackwood, Agnes Blackwood, that unnamed Lannister woman who had to marry a non-Lannister man so he could take her name just so he could lead the Lannister house instead of her, Argella Durrandon, Marla Sunderland); Fire and Blood has a bunch of girls raped, mutilated, SA-ed or sexually manipulated so the men can inch their way towards power or to just feel in control (Cassandra Baratheon, Lucinda Penrose, those Tumbleton 8-year-olds, the septas, etc.).

Making as if sexual violence against men or just general violence against men is treated the same, as frequent, and socially justified as violence against women and girls both in real life and in the ASoIaF/HotD/GoT universes is disingenuous. As long as we live in a society where enough people think a woman's body is never totally her own, it never will be.

ii) Let's play with this "Reversal" Anyway:

a) We already see Rhaenyra-Criston in the version of her approaching him...

In F&B, we already have one verison of what happened b/t them in Mushroom telling us of a situation of Rhaenyra approaching Criston and Criston denying her, with no material consequences for him...and he freely decides to hate and try to destroy her anyway ("A Question of Succession"):

Even IF Rhaenyra approached Criston and in this way, she does not go to Viserys to ruin Cole or do anything else to him. She sleeps with Harwin instead. And why doesn't she go to Viserys to fuck Criston's life up? Bc he has been her trusted guard for ages, but also because of what I say below in section b) below and i) above.

Reminder, Viserys in both the show and book forces Rhaenyra to marry Laenor, and book!her explicitly is rumored to say she wanted Daemon. She faces censure or punishment, not Cole.

Show!Rhaenyra has also been "friends"/friendly with Cole for years; what reason do we have to expect or fear that she'd complain to Viserys? How much does Criston really expect Rhaenyra does, since he's the said friend in her "confidence"?

b) Occam's razor

Since women cannot be Kingsguard in Westeros, the female-Cole would either be a lower-ranked noble woman or she would be like Jonquil Darke, the female sworn-shield of Alysanne Targaryen (who still wasn't part of the Kingsguard). JD was also a Darkling bastard.

It's so very unlikely that even if female-Cole become the guard to young/older male-Rhaenyra.

That's inconceivable to these people. Why would the probably already-sword trained male-Rhaenyra need a personal female-guardsman when they'd have an actual Kingsguard knight (still all male) as the male-Rhaenyra's guard before a female warrior is ever considered? This is the mindest of these royals and nobles, btw.

And again, Jonquil was the protector of Alysanne, not Jaehaerys. But Jaehaerys did use Jonquil to stop Saera from running away, and this proves that Jonquil's "final boss" is and always has been Jaehaerys, aka, the Monarch, not the person she was protecting. If a male-Rhaenyra approached a female-Cole (but not a bastard) who was a sort of Jonquil Darke person, even with that female-Cole being well-versed in swordsmanship or anything physical to defend herself, the social consequences of that woman sleeping with a royal man while not being married to him is still as real and worse for her than for him. She'd be less willing to fully engage with him and dread the consequences of his growing angry with her.

What if female-Cole was just a regular noblewoman, either ranked high from a prestigious family/Great House (Starks, Martell, Hightowers, Lannisters, Manderlys] or from a lower ranked or not-as-prestigious and influential family (Tarlys, Selmys, Boltons, Wyls)? And male-Rhaenyra took a liking to female-Cole but didn't want to or expect to marry them?

Because female-Cole is a female noble and had grown up knowing that women & girls are socially condemned for actually practicing sexual autonomy, they'd be much more cautious and vulnerable to censure in either scenario:

If the female-Cole was from a more prestigious or "Great" House, male-Rhaenyra wouldn't as likely approach them unless they thought they'd be good for marriage because that house is powerful and important enough to put some pressure on them IF they ever found out. An affair is very possible, and depending on female-Cole's age and assessment of her own abilities and worth growing up female, we don't know whether they'd be willing to pursue a true consensual affair with male-Rhaenyra without there being a hope or guarantee for marriage. Because, like Lysa Tully, they still run the risk of tainting their family/house' image and face punishment or abuse from their own family if such affairs were made public. (If I have to explain Lysa Tully to people, they either forgot what happens b/t her & Petar Baelish or never read the bks, and if the latter they should not speak on anything to do with any character in things like this that requires lore knowledge AND some objectivity. Or they don't see what happened to her as "a big deal"...) Still, there is room for her to not want the attention because women are not a monolith of the exact same personalities or circumstances for us to believe every single woman would go for a real affair regardless of there being a desire or expectation of marriage. Thus what I describe below for lower ranked women/girls still counts. If anything, the stakes can be said to be higher because her family's prestige or power is so high that they could also take the path of blaming her. Therefore, a woman/girl of this group could still feel cornered.

If female-Cole came from a lower/less prestigious house, male-Rhaenyra is more interested & likelier of pursuing an affair or making female-Cole their paramour/mistress. Same situation, but the girl has even less reason to believe that there would be a marriage bc her house' rank/prestige/powers are so low for a possible marriage to the future King. She'd have to be either be mentally incapacitated (Priscella Hogg), under another immense pressure, or very young to believe that. So in this case, there is a stronger likelihood that if she sleeps with male-Rhaenyra, it's because she was cornered or felt she couldn't avoid him and had no assurances to avoid him later on. Or that he'd later feel slighted and begin rumors of her in court and her reputation gets ruined either way.

in either case, because male-Rhaenyra is a man while female-Cole isn't and men are far more likely to use physical force to intimidate or push a woman down then the reverse; men on average feel entitled to women's bodies' and attention, what more a royal prince like Aegon & Aemond? (I didn't use these examples by accident: that 12 yr old "paramour" Septon Eustace informs us and Alys Rivers)

And male-Rhaenyra would be the heir, still. There would be no doubt against male-Rhaenyra because she'd be male, male leaders are credited their deserving to rule armies by being male. His path to ascension is clearer than what real-Rhaenyra currently and will have to face. Male-Rhaenyra has no reason to even be all that secretive with female-Cole if he did intend on making her his paramour & he thought he'd get away with just making her his paramour...which is most likely a woman in a much lower "rank" or of a family with much lower powers than some others. Yes, Viserys would say that he is acting "unseemly", he could be called stupid or reckless, and some lords and ladies would think he's acting too licentuously...but no one would begrudge or hate male-Rhaenyra long for extramaritally/premaritally sleeping with a woman of any origin as to say they were a "whore" or try to use this as their primary reason be shouldn't be the next King. The "new" greens don't as much shit to stand on. They'd look silly(ier) for actually using this as a reason to say he shouldn't be King.

Female-Cole has little to no leverage against a male-Rhaenyra in the specific moment of a sexual cornering bc there is simply more risk for her than for him based on their respective genders AND ranking. We can't separate the two, they will inform the other.

Cole-Cole has more social leverage than a woman actually corned by a male higher-ranking noble/royal bc Rhaenyra-Rhaenyra's reputation can be ruined a lot easier than a male heir's. In any iteration, female-Cole rather than Cole-Cole has more risk & pressures in because women are given less grace in events where it's known they extramaritally/premaritally sleep with a man. Because she's already side-eyed or doubted to be a capable leader or worthy, censures against her lack of practicing female obedience and chastity would make her seem less deserving of the throne and give her enemies more fuel to fire their own agenda.

Again, this hierarchical feudal society is built on making gender, class, etc. essential differences that grant individuals privileges over others.

Finally, Criston Cole, his relationship with Rhaenyra, AND their sex /how it happened cannot be compared to a modern-day boss-employee-relationship/sexual harassment sort of sex-reversed MeToo! situation. Viserys is, as many have said on both camps, Criston's real and unequivocal "boss". Really, this whole argument then diminishes what actual SA is and the MeToo! movement's focus on holding mainly male professional superiors accountable for willfully using their positions to assault those under them.

The writers trying to make Rhaenyra the one in with more psychological control over Criston when canonically there' isn't much evidence to support that is very suspicious.

Reasons to Hate Cole

A) Show/House of the Dragon

i)

Let's really think about Criston's suggestion to run away and marry.

The guy said this in episode 5 of season 1:

I've soiled my white cloak. And it's the only thing I have to my fսck¡ng name! I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it.

Criston's logic reveals he's more concerned about retaining his own sense and perception of his honor and not "honor" in general bc running away to elope would bring great disgrace to both his and Rhaenyra’s families & houses. Not just Rhaenyra herself. If it is Rhaenyra's "duty" to marry Laenor, she would be breaking her vows to become Queen. If she runs away, she arguably broke her vows to "protect" the realm from the Others as by her and Viserys' conversation about Aegon's prophecy. Cole may not have heard this from Rhaenyra, but he didn't want to hear anything from her because all he wanted was for her to go along with what he wanted, not to actually listen to her any misgivings she may have had.

He looked at marriage as a way to "bring back" a sense of honor for himself. Vows hold "sacred" honor. Criston is trying to distance himself from the very idea of freely and willfully “soiling” his cloak by trying to "replace" his brken vows with new marriage vows.

Remeber, he consented to sex with Rhaenyra, so it was his willful decision to sleep with her and "soil" his own "cloak". The writers and the actor, again, both work in the understanding that Cole "chooses to lie with Rhaenyra" [top of this post].

Criston absolutely knows that she can't marry him in the usual, open way and still retain her position as heir or even as part of the royal family. He's asking her to abandon her entire family...let that sink in. It shows a gender disparity that does not justify "if the roles were reversed". Lower-ranked-Female-Cole would never and could never hope to convince the male-Rhaenyra to run away with her and start an entirely new life, abandon both of their families (for marriage specifically) bc he doesn't have to in order to marry her. He may lose some people's respect if he marries her, but the consequences for him versus a female heir are not the same. A female heir would have to run away & not be among other Westerosi nobles, become a peasant, etc. to marry someone like Cole. *EDIT (3/17/24)* Example: Prince Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones. *END OF EDIT*

He was attracted to her, but his main motivation was to escape the shame of his soiled cloak and soiled honor. That his honor is actually a lie, a made-up thing in itself. That he, himself, soiled it and thus he, himself, has made himself a liar.

ii)

He has been living in court being Rhaenyra’s personal guard for years. Some of us thought that he should have known that nobles largely do not follow the same rules that excuse their positions through rumors. That they withhold and lie to protect themselves. (And generally, humans are wont to try to bend their own rules to satisfy their own desires.) 

And so we think that he should have done the same--patiently withhold information and observe what happens so he could adapt to it--while Alicent was getting to ask if Rhaenyra had slept with Daemon, and not if he slept with her.

It may not be faithful to one's vows, but if he actually knew what kind of person Rhaenyra was--that she would never run away with him (as he should after so many years of being with her and thus I think he did know but asked anyway, this he never really cared about her but himself)--then he should have never brought up the suggestion of running away or thought she'd ever marry him. What exactly did he think would happen for him after sleeping w/her? And as I argued, he had much more choice than some may think and took advantage of it. As nobles often do.

And yet, he decides that Rhaenyra is responsible for what he freely chose for himself AND what he could have easily avoided as a man/Kingsguard and her being female. And he does so so he can avoid accountability. Rhaenyra is much less likely to be able to & doesn't want to, once again, "make" him do anything with her. And Rhaenyra does not control Criston Cole's conscience nor his penis nor his reasoning.

Occam's razor again.

iii)

He decides to take it out on the Velaryon boys, as clued by what happens in the training yard of episode 6. It's obvious he refuses to treat them similarly to the green princes and train them at the same level. He's also much more physically rough with Jace than with either green boy. Finally he presses for Aegon to get more violent than necessary against Jace, clearly taking pleasure in vicarious revenge against Rhaenyra.

He's a loser who uses children's pain to inflict his own frustrations. And no, "illegitimate" children are not less human than "trueborn" ones.

B) Fire and Blood (The Original Story)

These are the versions of what happens b/t them, Septon Eustace's vs Mushroom's ("A Question of Succession"):

Really, alinahams already tackled this HERE, so check them out.

Excerpt:

In both versions, Criston is never involved with Rhaenyra in any way. Both versions take care to mention how it was all about Rhaenyra's choices about her life and body that bothered Criston and made him hate her. It's never about Criston being used and discarded. That is what makes Criston an Incel and a villain. Rhaenyra never did anything wrong to him. She didn't do anything to deserve his life long hatred and betrayal. It was his own twisted madonna/whore complex that ruined his friendship with Rhaenyra.

Criston decides to make it his life mission to destroy Rhaenyra because he couldn't handle her making her own decisions, bc honestly even if she (a 16-17 yr old) had decided to try to seduce him as Viserra did with Baelon...did Baelon hold it against Viserra or say that she was a whore or try to condemn her or get back at her for daring to "disturb" him in his grief over his dead wife, their sister, Alyssa?

Even with Baelon being a prince to Criston's Kingsguard, we see that both Viserra & Rhaenyra were desperate to have some sense of control over their own bodies through sex--and for Viserra through a marriage to a more powerful man--because it is through sex and marriage that their entire autonomy is being taken away or suppressed. And some in this fandom have argued that Viserra was bad or amoral for trying to seduce Baelon in his grief, and some have even said she was trying to take advantage of him! But does Baelon think this way or try to "avenge" himself on her? No.

Why try to ruin her and her kids' entire lives? Once more, Rhaenyra, even in Mushroom's version, does not ever complain to Viserys or try to ruin Criston. So....

[horizon-verizon]

"let's say rhaenyra becomes queen, and all of the sudden other firstborn daughters start to stand up and demand to be named heirs to their houses ."let's say jace becomes the prince of dragonstone, and suddenly bastards that are older then their legitimate siblings start to demand their rights as well."

You make it sound like women and girls would, in droves and droves, do this. This is more fear-based, anti-progressive speculation at best rather than a material observation of the society & its history itself. even with the boys inheriting brown hair and brown eyes, they all bonded with dragons successfully.

Rhaenyra didn't "demand" to be Queen for Viserys to make her his heir. Viserys decided by himself that she be the next monarch. I don't understand why you believe that girls all over Westeros would or could go up to their father and "demand" to be the next lady over their younger brothers and brothers when Rhaenyra's entire justification was that her father freely and purposely chose her as his heir without her asking or "demanding" for it. If anything, after centuries of men killing, mutilating, or just dispossessing daughters or other women who /would have/have had the seats of ruling lords in Westerois history has anything to go by (Marla Sunderland, Agnes Blackwood, Shiera Blackwood, that unnamed Lannister woman who the Lannisters married to a non-Lannister man and allowed that man to take the Lannister name so he could rule instead of her, Argella Durrandon), women and girls would not do as you speculate they could do because they have lived with the knowledge of exactly what you speak of. that the men of ASoIaF are the main ones shaping and deciding the rules of their society and they could be viciously destroyed if they try to broach that.

Also, since many lords supported Rhaenyra "despite" her sons. I think we have material evidence of lords not believing that their bastards and daughters will start "demanding" that they become considered their heirs over their trueborn sons. Because Rhaenyra's entire justification was that her father chose her. AND she was a trueborn scion, not a bastard. Rhaenyra was fighting for her own claim, and her sons only had a claim over the green boys and their kids through her having a claim over those same people.

Honestly, this argument looks a lot like one argument that pro-life people have against a woman's right to abortion: "If we allow women to have free access to abortion, what's to stop them from being irresponsible and getting pregnant so many times only for them to have multiple abortions, esp late-term ones?"

This last bit is not to accuse anyone of being pro-life, but to point out that the logic is mirroring each other: use a dubious scenario that has no material evidence from the text/reality to induce caution against what could challenge the status quo or the legitimacy of such a thing that challenges the status quo, which in this case is Rhanewyra becoming the ruler by the usual means. Unchallenged and not usurped.

"but there's just no way that a woman & a bastard can inherit peacefully when 3 legitimate sons (with legitimate sons of their own) exist."

It is not speculation that Alicent never achieved what she set out to do in her first attempts, which was to prove Rhaenyra's sons were "legal" bastards to the public and force Viserys to publicly remove them from the succession. Alicent had to do a last-minute measure to usurp Rhneyra, and secretly. So yes, I believe Rhaenyra AND her brothers would be relatively safe if she ascended. Alicent's and the court's own measure of "true" Targness--having hatched a dragon in the cradle--was not even "achieved" by at least 2 out of 4 of Alicent's own children: Aemond & Helana both had to "claim" dragons and out of the "cradle" when they were older.

I would say that much of Westeros politics is denial or hiding things to get your way, as Tywin Lannister or most men in his position would have hidden that Cersei's lids her brothers and not her husbands so that he/they could keep having control the way they have been. Viserys has done the same. Real-life men have done the same for their wives (you can read Eleanor Herman's book Sex with the Queen to learn more about that) for their own benefit. I bet that if you actually went through many lords and their families' secrets (and even many of already-known things that are recorded in AWoIaF), you would find many things that could be many ways they have broken customs or tules to establish their own power or other advantage. The Hightowers do so with Lyonel Hightower and Samantha Tarly.

GRRM (So Spake Martin):

The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history… which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory.

The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power. In a tangle like the Hornwood case, ultimately the lord would decide... and if some of the more powerful claimants did not like the decision, it might come down to force of arms.

So why did the greens not leave well enough alone or let Viserys claim Rhaenyra's sons/claim them as his heir' heirs? Not just because they were ultra-religious (the Faith labels bastards as inferior bc they were not born of "honor" or god-blessed unions but of lust, failure of self-restraint, etc.) but because they wanted to use an excuse to usurp her for their own path to power.

It is a narrative & lore FACT, not a speculation, that:

Rhaenyra had been heir and mother to those Velaryon boys for years, yet we hear no other lord or group plan for their downfall before the greens did; why did no one go against her in all that time? [goes into next point]

[to quickly use HotD, as I will later here, for a bit, since it seems you are only thinking of HotD] the Targayens had more dragons than the 3 Conquerors, yet the Conquerors conquered Westeros in under 2 years...I think that if they had stayed united as even HotD's very first episode's narration clues us into ("nothing can tear down the House of the Dragon other than itself"), they would have been able to crush any actual rebellion any group of lords tried to make, and the lords themselves knew that, which is why we have no evidence of any trying to plan against or prepare for anything against Rhaenyra -> even HotD atp contradicts your reasoning

Jace, despite being a bastard in some senses of the term, nevertheless commanded respect from several lords for his death to be seen as a tragedy not just for Rhaenyra but for the potential leadership...Gyldayn even goes on to say that his death was "felt so deeply" and he inspired one of the blacks' greatest allies to fight for Rhaenyra -> all this unsubtly implies they were not against his coming rule after Rhaenyra died, no matter his patrimony=

"i'm saying some of them def won't, and as long as aegon\aemond\daeron lives, there will always be someone advocating for their rights"

...Who?! If--as I mentioned & implied already above--Aegon, Aemond, & Daeron themselves swore off of trying to go for the throne? You can't make a united front of dragonriders do much of anything without being dragonriders yourselves!

How can they "advocate for their rights" when the greens claim that they have no rights to begin with, which is what I am saying they absolutely could have done. No one can force the greens or Aegon/Aemond/Daeron to oppose Rhaneyra without some really extreme measures.

Which is more likely to happen (if the green boys/men DON'T try to go to war with Rhaenyra or usurp her and instead support her rule or turn away anyone who offers to support them instead of Rhaenyra/propose to war with them against her?):

A) they and their dragons crush them

-OR-

B) these hopeful lords who want to war in the greens' names--without the greens actually giving them the permission or ability to---pressuring the green three to go to war

"jace will have to face the exact same situation with his own brothers aegon and viserys"

Even if this is a digression, no Jacaerys has nothing to fear from his own brothers because as I argued, he was already NOT universally despised or disapproved of as a future ruler for people to actually start preparations to rebel against either him or his mother. Again, no one ever proved he wasn't Laenor's son, and yes they still had/wanted to do so to achieve what they wanted (when i said above that Alicent tried).

"also, did we forget how easily rhaenyra offered to have her 10yo brother tortured when she felt like her children were in danger? do you guys really believe that she's above murdering to protect them?"

Not only did HotD make it so that their version of Rhaenyra was the one to say someone on the other side should be tortured or merely questioned rather than how it actually went down in the original story (pic below, from "A Question of Succession") with bkAlicent calling for Lucerys' eye to match Aemond's eyelessness,

but:

in episode 10, Rhaenyra says/shows that she is not willing to go to war or kill he siblings bc she wants to follow Viserys' nonconfrontational habits and avoid war/conflict "for the realm"...it was w hole thing between her & Daemon AND Rhaneys points it out to Corlys

even show!Rhaenyra was clearly trying to get Viserys to focus on the bastard name-calling to avert any more danger to her sons that the word opened up for them at that moment.

The Vhagar-eye incident is much different than Rhaenyra & her sons at a distance from any green, having the support that she had, and clearly stating that she didn't want to go to war bc she wanted to do as Viserys said and look after the realm. Because the trajectory of the situation was directly and quickly heading to a public chastisement and putting more strength to those accusations/"truth" to them being bastards.

This means that, yes, she did not want and was never going to kill her own brothers without provocation from the greens themselves. This is HotD's writing, not F&B's.

Even in F&B, bk!Rhaenyra explicitly states that she will not kill her brothers because that is kinslaying and that she blames Alicent and Otto for their participation in usurping her. That if they left the usurpation behind, she would spare them all ("The Blacks and the Greens"):

Which the show refused to include, but nevertheless, the show still makes it clear show!Rhaenyra would never and did not want to kill her own brothers.

Kinslaying is such a serious crime and taboo in Westerosi culture. Rhaenyra is saying that she would never break this taboo if her brother did not break another taboo first (disobeying a king's command, which was that she be queen). With Rhaenyra already being a woman and having her gender used against her as a reason why she couldn't possibly be a good ruler to some of those lords...why in the world would she ever make things worse for herself (at that particular point) in the eyes of her own supporters plus those who are "neutral" or support the greens by then contradicting herself & displaying even a willingness to kill said kin without proper provocation?! And yes, the usurpation was a proper provocation, as she, again, stated by saying they were going against Viserys' ruling that she be queen.

Never mind that all of this ONLY began because Alicent & the greens usurped Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra did not start the war, and the greens always knew that if they usurped her they were effectively beginning a war. HotD's Alicent may not be aware of this (and this is a knock against her intelligence as most usurpations lead to war in both real history and ASoIaF...we should blame the writers for that, bk!Alicent would never), but everyone else certainly was, esp Otto.

I can't state enough that there was no opposition (or not anywhere close enough if we still, for some inexplicable reason, argue that there was/could be) against Rhaenyra before the greens actually started to plot against her and finally usurped her. There is no evidence of such and in the scenario where they actually made front together, no dragons lord could really stand a chance against them for very long at all.

ok, so i've been getting a lot of "rhaenyra would never kill her siblings" asks recently.

first of all, no one is saying that rhaenyra WANTS to kill her brothers. but there's just no way that a woman & a bastard can inherit peacefully when 3 legitimate sons (with legitimate sons of their own) exist. this is not how westerosi politics work. the men in power wants to keep the men in power, this is the definition of patriarchy. and i'm not saying that's a good thing - because obvs it's not - but that's the truth. westeros is a patriarchal society.

the lords of westeros - the men in power - wants to preserve the existing order. legitimate sons inherit over daughters, bastards can't inherit. it's important to them because their own power is dependent on this very system. let's say rhaenyra becomes queen, and all of the sudden other firstborn daughters start to stand up and demand to be named heirs to their houses . let's say jace becomes the prince of dragonstone, and suddenly bastards that are older then their legitimate siblings start to demand their rights as well. from our modern pov - that's a great thing, but for the lords of westeros that's literally their worst nightmare.

"but a lot of houses supported rhaenyra". true! i'm not saying every lord in westeros will not accept her, i'm saying some of them def won't, and as long as aegon\aemond\daeron lives, there will always be someone advocating for their rights - and that's dangerous for rhaenyra and her family. so yeah, to protect herself and her children she will 100% kill her brothers. i'm not holding it against her - she's obvs going to care more about her children & herself then her brothers.

"but dorne ..." i feel like GRRM has made it abundantly clear that westeros does not want to become like dorne. dornish people are stereotyped and discriminated against - especially dornish women, that are viewed as promiscuous and are constantly oversexualized. westeros becoming like dorne is def not something westerosi men want.

ironically, jace will have to face the exact same situation with his own brothers aegon and viserys, but i digress.

also, did we forget how easily rhaenyra offered to have her 10yo brother tortured when she felt like her children were in danger? do you guys really believe that she's above murdering to protect them?

[allyriadayne]

a bit puzzling to see people saying this is the first time jace has ever externalized his anger in regards to his identity issues and rhaenyra's role in them. granted, in s1 he expressed them towards other people like aemond and aegon esp when the subject was explicitly brought up like in 108, but it's very clear to me that was just another way To Not Get Mad At Mom, It's Fine Actually.

jace has been going on a realization journey since "am i a bastard?" in 106, one where he is going from thinking there's something fundamentally different in him and that it was his fault to maybe it was not his fault but then whose is it? to me it seems like jace can't bear to blame rhaenyra directly at all. she has been his champion, and jace hers in return. to blame rhaenyra is tantamount to treason. "my ruler is my mother and i do not wish it otherwise" because he /can't/ imagine otherwise either. he believes in her claim and that means she has done this for a reason.

in s2 this gives way to a more flawed rhaenyra in jace's eye. she leaves dragonstone without telling anyone twice, doesn't share her plans, doesn't act against the greens, lets daemon go, doesn't call daemon back, doesn't listen to jace, and on top of it all: lets a prophecy on targaryen supremacy lead her when her less than wholly targaryen son stands before her. it has always been rhaenyra's fault and he can't bear it and even to the last he still tries to believe her, denying she would ever do anything to undermine him.

X

[letoscrawls]

corlys and rhaenys?? 👀

can you believe i'm living my life without them

[ceriseo]

i dont think otto and daemon had an actual serious relationship but i do think that as a part of daemon's pyschosexual fixation on his brother he drunkenly hit on otto and when otto reacted homophobically daemon got offended because?? wym you dont want to fuck me im literally daemon targaryen?? and otto was like. im not a filthy degenerate (same tone as 'or you, her childhood companion'). and daemon was like. clearly. whatever loser im too cool and hot for you and then went to his chambers and stared at the wall for twenty hours. the next day he met mysaria.

[horizon-verizon]

No. This is pretty much just a projection. Aegon the Elder was nowhere near Visenya's son (or her) level.

Visenya's #1 goal was to make sure the Targareyn dynasty was maintained and that the Targ monarch's authority would remiain the highest authority. To do this, she sought "strong" and capable leaders. Aenys wasn't strong or determined enough, so she sought to make Maegor the next ruler. And she didn't even want Ceryse hightower to marry her son initally, but Rhaena, his niece. It's only because the High Septon (Ceryse ' uncle) threatedned them that the Faith wouldn't accept the incestuous marriage & AEgon I decided to keep Targ-Oldtown relations positive that Maegor married Ceryse. Visenya either likely went along with it for the politics OR she disapproved but kept silent bc she didn't want to make Aegon I look weird OR she disapproved but eventually felt it was politically necessary enough. To make sure that the one of the most influential houses over the very institution that hated the Targs were on the Targ's side/Maegor's side. This doesn't mean she liked the Hightowers, she just knew they could be a potential great help/threat.

Therefore, no she wouldn't like Alicent, she'd just assess her on a political-need basis.

Aegon doesn't need "patching up"; he needs imprisonment, exile, and heavy therapy sessions. He also is told to not want the throne at first or any grand responsibility...Visenya would have little patience for this. She would likely wants someone who took it upon themselves to do that mental and physical labor, not someone one who needs handholding, to rule. So she'd not want Aegon the Elder to be anywhere near the throne. She'd think he's a waste of time, no matter how she felt about Alicent...because it's not about Alicent!

She also advised Aenys I to destroy the Starry Sept 2x (which the Hightowers for thousands of years patroned and have used to advance their own esteem & influence in the 7 kingdoms). Alicent is ultra conservative and religious.

The first time was when the High Septon (Ceryse's uncle) publicly condemned Rhaena & Aegon the Uncrowned (Aenys' kids who he was marrying) and said their kids shouldn't be accepted/they should be seen as abominations and not "true" heirs. The 2nd time was after some Faith-emboldened Poor Fellows tried to kill Aenys & his family:

["Sons of the Dragon"]

"She was the first non valyrian bride of house targaryen that allowed her own kids to marry each other and they all have great dragons that are loyal to them."

So? It's a house tradition. Alicent's not special for having her kids to marry bc those kids belong to House Targaryen, not Hightower. The final authority over their marriage will always be on Viserys, not Alicent, even if she did arrnage or suggest it, as proven whe she tried to give Aegon to Rhaenyra to marry and Viserys said no.

Plus, Visenya'd again perceive that the motive behind Alicent going out of her way to get her kids together as for the benefit of Aegon the Elder's claim. Just as Aenys married Rhaena and Aegon the Uncrowned for AegontU's claim. It's nothing emotional or touchy-feely goodness, nothing wholesome, just straight politics.

Plus, what makes you think she wouldn't see how "loyal" the blacks' dragons were to the blacks? The blacks who had more dragons, too? That Syrax was not loyal to Rhaenyra; that Caraxes wasn't to Daemon; that Vermax to Jace; Stormcloud to Aegon the Younger; Moondancer to Baela; Arrax to Lucerys; Tyraxes to Joffrey; Meleys to Rhaenys?! What evidence is there of the greens dragons displaying more or less loyalty to their riders than the blacks' dragons to their riders? Furthermore, if Visenya had bene alive, Aemond wouldn't have Vhagar, and the greens look a lot less impressive compared to the blacks.

"Yes rhaenyra and daemon are pure blooded targs(cos apparently thats a real term toxic anti green people use to describe them, which is just...like in this day and age really?)"

I don't Visenya would care about that...even if there are team black fans who are saying that.

"But when the civil war was happening, u can defo believe visenya wouldve wished for alicent for a daughter in law. Having illegitmate children as your heirs wouldve defo made them in alicents side."

Visenya put her own son, the second son, on the throne over the last monarch's named heir. She wouldn't care that much about bastardry, esp with one of her people being a rumored bastard (Orys Baratheon) but who still proved his loyalty to her, her sister, and Aegon several times. She created the Kingsguard just for there to a force to protect the monarch at all times. And again, she outspokenly said that Aenys recognized Maegor was the better and stronger perosn, would be a better ruler after Aenys gave Blackfyre to him. She cares about strength & determination more than the rules of who's blood is "better". Of which Aegon the Burning Man has little to none when things are just given to him. Both Maegor & Aegon I had to fight for what they wanted.

Also, no where here was it stated why she'd want Alicent specifically as a "daughter in law" when the Dance began...Visenya wouldn't even want the Dance to begin and would try to diminish Alicent's influence because she sees how far Alicent would go to get Aegon (the weakling) on the throne.

"Also aegon wears the conqurors crown, then there's aemond with vhagar and loyal daeron with tessarion and helaena a person with andal and targ blood having dragon dreams. R u kidding visenya would love that, and so would aegon i and rhaenys."

Aegon only wore the crown...because he usurped Rhaenyra and they had to do a very quick ceremony to crown him bc they knew she'd do everything to stop them. and they had to do this quickly bc Alicent failed to get people to turn against Rhaenyra before Viserys died by condemning her & her sons.

Once more...Alicent failed, so she had to do a crown-and-go with Aegon. Both in the books and the show.

Again, you make as if there were no bonds of loyalty amongst the blacks. Meanwhile, Aemond has shown, during the Dance, he had no real loyalty towards his own sister and mother.

["The Red Dragon & the Gold"]

VS

["Rhaenyra Triumphant"]

Whereas Baela tried to be by Jace's side to fight; Daemon died for Rhaenyra; Rhaenyra had been a good stepmother to his kids and he a stepdad to hers; Baela & Rhaena plotted with Alyn Velaryon to foil Unwin Peake's plan to get Myrielle Peake, his daughter, married to Aegon III. Rhaenyra's son & their brother.

Why would be she surprised with someone with both Andal & Valyrian "blood" have dragon dreams when only & any those with Valyrian blood of any "amount" can ride dragons?! Besides, HotD's Helaena's visions are not actually dragon dreams, they changed that for their show. Dragon dreams happen when...a person is asleep or unconscious. which is why they are called "dreams". Helaena just has visions, and no these are not the same as true dragon dreams otherwise we could say Melisandre's visions are dragon dreams when they clearly aren't. Both in the books and the shows.

"One thing visenya and maegor would agree on is that team green has loyalty, not only are aemond and daeron the best and most loyal little brothers a king would ask for, but no major lord ever betrayed them,while aegon ii was alive."

Aemond deadass refused to go south with Criston Cole and leave Alys Rivers or Harrnehal bc he thought that would be too cowardly....

["Rhaenyra Triumphant"]

People can fight me on this but realistically, comparing the times, visenya and maegor wouldve loved alicent, especially book!alicent.

She was the first non valyrian bride of house targaryen that allowed her own kids to marry each other and they all have great dragons that are loyal to them.

Yes rhaenyra and daemon are pure blooded targs(cos apparently thats a real term toxic anti green people use to describe them, which is just...like in this day and age really?)

But when the civil war was happening, u can defo believe visenya wouldve wished for alicent for a daughter in law. Having illegitmate children as your heirs wouldve defo made them in alicents side.

Also aegon wears the conqurors crown, then there's aemond with vhagar and loyal daeron with tessarion and helaena a person with andal and targ blood having dragon dreams. R u kidding visenya would love that, and so would aegon i and rhaenys.

She probably would think aegon needs a little patching up, which if she could, she would scold him from his dreams. Maegor would definitely think aegon is dumb but both of them would be impressed when hes sober and going to dragon battles himself.

One thing visenya and maegor would agree on is that team green has loyalty, not only are aemond and daeron the best and most loyal little brothers a king would ask for, but no major lord ever betrayed them,while aegon ii was alive.

[horizon-verizon]

The showrunners just continue to steal from TV Daenerys’s characterization and final storyline to improve their Rhaenyra (a self righteous Targaryen woman with delusions of grandeur ? Groundbreaking), but she remains completely boring and forgettable. Dust in the wind.

And even though TV Daenerys is radically and entirely different from her book counterpart (as much as I love Emilia Clarke), TV Daenerys’ daddy didn’t tell her she’s special, unlike Rhaenyra, Daenerys realized she’s special when she brought back dragons from extinction and walked out of fire utterly unharmed, please can people stop compare her to any of the mid characters from HOTD ??

Speak it again, anon, bc what?! It's quite obvious that they are trying to inject as much a literal magic layer of significance in Rhaenyra's story as magic was in Dany's Or they are trying to make Rhaenyra more "important" in the Targ lineage & "interesting" to those who loved Dany (which is most of the fandom, lets' bfr) to promote the show. And yet at every turn they have also excused D&D's atrocious illogical writing of Daenerys' core traits and convictions behind the ol' "GRRM has not finished his series".

We know that there are only 2 books left of this series and Dany is still very NOT like her show counterpart's more...demanding isn't the right word but for now, we'll go with it. Based on this fact alone, people are so much more willing to believe that Dany will turn a 180 somewhere in these last 2 bks and destroy KL or do something akin to Mad!Aerys "bc Targs are crazy and she seeks to be a white savior while profiting from slaves". That this extreme turn for her will not happen for someone like Jon Snow who literally came back from the dead after nearly all under his command killed him. That they don't feel it rather be Cersei, not Dany, who'd blow up KL despite all the comparisons and actions she has similar to Aerys in the text, word for word verbatim. No it has to be Dany, bec she is a "foreign invader" come to ruin the good town of Westeros with her slave-owning ways.

Ryan Condal recently said as much about the D&D defense on BigThink:

Besides, there were a lot other instances where it's clear the real reason why they demolished her was to move on from the project and they just didn't like Dany. Go on over to ozymalek/PhoenixAshes' Youtube and search through to see how they broke it all down.

And yes, Dany actually showed/has very good reason to believe her singularity and even this pseudo-religious quality from her revitalizing dragons, effectively patching up a lot of the magical balance of the world by doing so.

What's also pretty cool is that bk!her still doesn't think of herself as a "god" the way Euron Greyjoy is kinda heading towards/is already at.

So it's so fucking weird how they are trying to re-capitalize on Dany's effect and show!character (and before that, her nonviolenet ADwD arc about the pits) for their false version of Rhaenyra bc apparently we can tolerate and even like ambitious, vengeful, cruel, or just selfish men like Euron, Robert B, Robb (not evil, but went to war for his own ends and his armies also raped indiscriminately), TYWIN [Rains of Castamere, everything else], etc. BUT a woman who has even just the mere self-concern to want to claim back a throne that was DEFINITIVELY usurped?! Nah, apparently, that's too much. She's unsympatheziable.

For a woman, she HAS to be "unselfish", trying to prove a point to men--dead or alive--of her strength 24/7, but unable to settle with an idea of her own "strength" or worthiness, and thus eventually be lead into semi-unintentionally building some strange "cult" around dragons from Westerosi religiosity to feel in control & for people to sympathize with her. She HAS to--as one Twitter user said--have a problem with her gender identity so as to attribute "womanly" stuff as "weak" to want the same things as what a man are granted.

If the audience is stupid, does that mean you should be as well and perpetuate MORE sexist stereotypes/frameworks? No; HotD is for the money and comes form a place of ignorant "women guide violent men" narrative, no matter much it claims it is "feminist" or how lore-knowledgeable Condal says he is.

We all know this is a media company and Condal is more businessman than creator and that you need sorta both a business/production sense as well as a creative spirit for TV/film. Problem is that Condal is inevitably and attempting to build an ethos and ethical narrative while also treating the org stories and GoT as material to re-market through his own "vision" of what he'd personally like to see as a ASoIaF story.

Just bc this is a huge media company doesn't mean whatever they say is "God" for the actual story they were tasked to adapt! You can enjoy that and still recognize nothing about it or most of it informs the orig story or "proves" anything of it WITHOUT bringing up good reasoning and comparisons as to how-why!

Much of the characterization/writing/plot decisions he makes are not about feminism or making the characters palatable for others but to--like with a lot of censorship--just make it so that as many people as possible are watching and are comfortable with the most popular but incorrect ideas of what ASoIaF & feminism or sexism is about, etc.. those of which have already been in fandom and larger life/online circulation for YEARS.

Therefore, there is much superficiality as well as what could have been fleshed out and nuanced ideas or directions the current writing HotD has AS WELL AS Condal's/Hess' own biases written into the very fabric of this show that mark it as just ASoIaF "fanfiction" instead of a strict "adaptation". I know people get annoyed with the fanfic allegations, but if you have an "adaptation" that no longer has most-to-any of the core ideas, themes, characterizations, EVENTS, etc. as its original, you call that a fanfic, not an adaptation. Just bc it came from a prestige major studio/company and had a lot of money thrown at it, doesn't make it actually an adaptation.

If the author themselves--even though they should know better bc look what happened with Dany, Euron, Cersei-Jaime, etc.--say something is egregiously wrong with how they written a certain thing in the show, it is not actually using the orig lore and therefore it is more fanfic than adaptation:

Dany--unlike any other Targ, which includes Rhaenyra--has a relationship with 3 separate dragons even though she will only ride one. Vermithor should NOT have been as "docile" with Rhaenyra as they were in the show (saw another clip online, still haven't watched the episode). There is still a reason why Jace tried to get her out TWICE, why Viserys was upset at Aemond for going down to the Dragonpit alone, why Rhaena nearly died trying to bond with some, , why Nettles approach and SUCCESS with Sheepstealer is so amazing, why Baelon bumping a dragon on the nose gave him the moniker "Baelon the Brave", etc. Dragons are damned dangerous to anyone who aren't their rider! And Rhaenyra's "specialness" was evident in the plethora and rise of dragon eggs....you want to show her as such? Have dialogue about the trajectory of dragon eggs laid compared to now vs 40/30/20/10 yrs ago!

Yes, most of the Targ women are connected and esp through magic and fertility & expressed "Targaryen woman's strength" and agency in unique but still related ways. But as rhaenin-time once said:

HotD thinks it's somehow an improvement to insist that actually, no, they're all just (by circumstance) variations of a "generic targ girl" template.

You could have even have Rhaenyra stumble on something a GoT character later finds but not have her go into that deep about it bc she's focused on the war/usurpation if you really want to stick with the whole oversimplified "distracted by selfish stuff" going on. Point is, Rhaenyra's significance was meager compared to Dany's SPECIFICALLY when we talk about active and participatory spiritutality/magic. Passively and more subtly, Rhaenyra dying spelled the end of dragons...so be subtle about it and stop with the whole "religious cult" nonsense that really is just a continuation of the whole Dany-is-a-facist nonsense we got in the final season of GoT. "Targ madness" and all that.

Of course they won't bc this is Condal's "vision", but hey, got things off my chest.

[bohemian-nights]

People really are missing the point of a character like Nettles. Being the a non-Valyrian dragonrider is what makes her different(in every positive definition of that word) and helps to serve a larger purpose in this story.

Valyrian blood is not special. It’s not needed to do great things. No one is special because of what family they happen to be born into.

A non-Valyrian Nettles shows that we are more than the circumstances which we are born into. Our birth, our names, and our very blood does not define us. Our actions are what do. We can overcome so much and rise to become absolutely extraordinary with a little bit of determination, patience, and a dash of help along the way. Nettles exemplifies that to the fullest extent.

She's more than a Black Valryian. She doesn’t have to be Valyrian. She shouldn’t have to be Valyrian.

She’s a survivor. She’s a final girl. She’s a Black low-born girl likely without a drop of dragons blood that tames a wild dragon with patience that killed countless others who had dragons blood. She survived the Dance where others high and low alike fell and perished to become a firewitch to the Burned Men.

Her legacy is immortalized in the history books(and by the Burned Men cause they still worship her) as one of the last(if not the last) dragonrider(s) before Dany all without having any known Valyrian ancestry.

[horizon-verizon]

YEP.

Rather than excuse [Dany's] actions and flaws because "she's just a teenager", people create stereotypical flaws of teenage girls in her story.

--

Rhaenyra wanting to change the cultural misogyny isn't her being spoiled, it's a fair goal. She's going to be the most powerful person in the kingdom, it's more immature, I think, for her to not have any plans or ambitions. Rhaenyra not wanting to run away to a life of poverty isn't being spoiled; it'd be naive of her to do that with a dude she had a drunken one night stand with.

Ok, I'm going to say this as a 19 y/o, but I think we as a society give wayyyyy to much grace to teenagers. I mean, yeah, our brains aren't fully developed, but we still understand the difference between right and wrong. Like, we understand how the world works to an extent. Excusing ignorance, selfishness, and cruelty because "they're literally a teenager" is very infantilizing and enabling.

Yes, our emotions get the best of us, we have bad coping skills, and we don't have the best critical thinking skills. However, the expectation shouldn't be that we're inept, naive, and frankly stupid things. I think there should be grace and understanding extended to teenagers and teenaged characters, but not the extent I see people give.

For instance, Sansa Stark is given wayyyyy to much grace for her wilfull ignorance regarding Littlefinger's plans. Yes, it's excusable to and extent in AGOT, she was a sheltered girl who saw the world in a very whitewashed way. However, by the point of AFFC, she knows the world is harsh, she knows Littlefinger has no issues killing to get his way. She chooses to ignore this truth.

Now, I'm not saying Sansa is evil and irredeemable. Her wilfull ignorance is a character flaw, one she will develop out of. She's a gray character, just like every other character in ASOIAF. (I also have a lot to say about her bullying of Arya, but I won't talk about that here).

Alicent also receives the same treatment a lot. I think some of her choices in the first few episodes of season 1 do fit with the excuse. However, her choices throughout the show, her very stupid and cruel decisions, are so often excused long after her teenage years. This is a whole ass 30 y/o and her stans are treating her like she's fucking 15.

With Dany, I see the opposite applied. I've seen people say that she's foolish and naive, is too young to understand how the world works. They say she throws temper tantrums and expects the world to fall in line for her. This isn't the case. Rather than excuse her actions and flaws because "she's just a teenager", people create stereotypical flaws of teenage girls in her story.

Dany is known to be extremely wise for her age and she displays amazing self control and emotional regulation that I don't have now, let alone when I was 13. Dany is compassionate, self-sacrificing, and displays great foresight. She's someone who was forced to learn the harsh realities of the world young. She's not a stupid child, she shouldn't be infantilized, especially since it's always done maliciously.

I think (show) Rhaenyra gets the same treatment, but to a lesser extent. Her rightful reactions (ie to Criston asking her to run away) are misconstrued as the choices of a spoiled teenager. And yeah, that does come through sometimes, I guess; however, not nearly to the extent her antis accuse her of.

Rhaenyra wanting to change the cultural misogyny isn't her being spoiled, it's a fair goal. She's going to be the most powerful person in the kingdom, it's more immature, I think, for her to not have any plans or ambitions. Rhaenyra not wanting to run away to a life of poverty isn't being spoiled; it'd be naive of her to do that with a dude she had a drunken one night stand with.

These are just some examples of this teenager excuse being misapplied. Each time this happens, as a teenager, I feel insulted. We are not simply naive idiots; we are not just overemotional or selfish. We have brains, treat us like we do. Expect teenagers to understand at least the basics of morality and the world. This enabling behavior encourages teenagers to act selfish and be unthoughtful.

[alicentalicent]

Watching episode 1x01 of House of the Dragon is a delight because you can find a lot of foreshadowing and nods to what will happen later. This part stood out for me because while Corlys is swearing fealty to Rhaenyra as Viserys' heir, the shot cuts to Alicent in a very pointed way.

We can see her with an expression that could be read as jealousy, perhaps, or being worried about what this means to Rhaenyra (Alicent is very smart, and the precedent in this respect does NOT bode well for Rhaenyra. Though maybe she's just being anxious (as per usual) about losing her friend to duty and responsibility soon idk Emily's acting is superb and this expression can be interpreted in many ways.)

That's the surface layer of the scene, but I find it interesting that Corlys, the one swearing fealty to Rhaenyra, betrays her at the end. Whereas Alicent, the one being shown at this moment, ends up walking a very complicated path where fealty and good faith are questioned, but we know now she chooses Rhaenyra at the end. Beautiful.

Followed by a quick interlude of Rhaenyra enveloped in flames, because of course she is.

And now we have the next Lord swearing fealty, Hobert Hightower, which we know will stop supporting Rhaenyra's claim from the very moment Aegon II draws his first breath.

The scene cuts to Daemon, who is at his lowest point because Viserys chose Rhaenyra as his heir in part to spite him and as a punishment for being an absolute prick about Baelon dying.

But we know that he ends up marrying Rhaenyra and supporting her claim. However, I would argue that his arc also questions "good faith and without deceit."

And finally, the scene cuts to none other than Mysaria, who we know will play an important part in Rhaenyra's cause.

It's fun that the focus is on her while Lord Hobert is swearing by the old gods and the new, especially if we think of the role she will play in advising Rhaenyra about the dragonseeds and thus leaning into the divine aspect of being a Targaryen, closer to the gods thanks to the dragons etc etc.

Heh, that's Mysaria on the stairs. (Young Rhaenyra would be like: "may the gods bless you wtf???")

Anyways I like finding scenes that on first watch are saying something and on rewatch you can notice maybe there's some more stuff hidden there.

Also I looooove noticing parallels between Alicent/Daemon on one side and Alicent/Mysaria on the other. Delicious food.