#i just am not a fan of rey or kylo

[themistymountainscold]

tag game: (star wars)

tagged by the wonderful @dragonflylady77 <33

1.ride or die ship (your otp): me/rex. i'm kidding it's codywan

2. most annoying ship: reylo

3. second favourite ship: dinluke

4. favourite platonic relationship: anakin and ahsoka

5. underrated ship: obirex

6. overrated ship: lmao reylo

7. one thing i would change in canon: the ending of the prequels. anakin killed palpatine and rasied the twins with padme. IT HAPPENED IN MY HEART OKAY?

8. something canon did right: how they showed order 66 in the s7 finale.

9. a thing i'm proud of creating for the fandom PLEASE BRAG ABOUT YOURSELF I WANT TO SEE/READ YOUR ART: i pretty much just make incorrect quotes. but i do have two fics up.

10. a character who is perfect to me (wouldn't change a thing): captain rex.

11. the character i relate to the most and why: fox. also a coffee addict and done with everyones shit.

12. character(-s) i hate the most and why: palpatine. for fucking everyone over and breathing.

13. something i've learned from the fandom: that people are so small minded that have to hate on everything they don't even need an opinion on.

14. three tags i seek out on ao3: I don't really look at tags other than character or pairing. So I'm gonna pass on this one. (on the og and i so agree)

15. a song i strongly associate with my otp/favourite character: if only by dave mathews band. for rex.

tagging: @starrrgazingbunny @ohsugarsnaps @thestarwarslesbian @501st-rexster @echos-girlfriend @derangeddroid @hugmekenobi @crosshairs-husband @crosshairs-wife

[raleighrador]

Jedi recruitment - ontological necessity or political pragmatism?

The fact that Jedi almost exclusively recruit pre verbal children is easily one of the most controversial aspects of the Order, in universe and amongst fans.

The debate broadly centres on why they do it and what the results (for individuals and at a systemic level) are. I would argue, based on what we see in material both pre and post the Disney acquisition, that this practice is not strictly necessary and is at least as much a successful political tool that benefits the Jedi as it is anything else.

So, why do the Jedi do it (according to them/their supporters)? There are basically 2 arguments that are made: i) untrained force sensitives are dangerous to themselves & those around them and ii) The Jedi order are the only appropriate institution to train them (both practically and philosophically).

On the first - this just isn't at all clear, and the Jedi's behaviour is further evidence that this is far less of a problem than they like to imply.

So far as we know the most natively powerful force connections in the Star Wars universe are Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa, Rey Palpatine/Skywalker. People like Ben Solo/Kylo Renn, Mae and Osha Aniseya, Yoda, Sheev Palpatine all plausibly fit in to some kind of top 10. Anakin is probably/definitely at the top and the rest all fit in behind him.

Anakin, Luke, Leia, Rey, Ben, Osha all started training ranging from later than the Jedi ideal through to when they were full grown adults. All became powerful and dangerous (in the way that all people with super powers are), 3 of them fell to the dark side with dire consequences and 3 didn't. That is probably an argument in favour of Jedi style training if not recruitment, because their method seems to have significantly higher success rates (though not a perfect one).

It is also the wrong frame of reference. Far more interesting & insightful are all the children the Jedi DON'T recruit. There are basically 2 drivers behind these un-recruited Force sensitive children: Jedi only take children with the parents' consent & the Jedi only have jurisdiction inside the Republic.

I personally am very dubious of the claim that every child who was ever recruited by the Jedi was done so with the parents consent. For this argument I am willing to assume it is true.

Why do the Jedi only take kids with parental consent? If untrained force sensitives are so dangerous surely they should be taking all children regardless? This introduces 2 points of tension: either the Jedi don't always respect consent or they do, and the reason they do is because it isn't actually as strictly necessary to take these kids as they like to imply.

The fact that they only operate within the borders of the Republic is a second proof point. The Republic is the largest but not the only geopolitical body in the GFFA. You have Hutt space, Wild Space, the Unknown Regions, Hapes Cluster etc. If untrained force sensitives really were such a great threat that only the Jedi can handle them a) it is a very dubiously defensible for the Jedi to say "ah shucks the border is here" b) it would suggest that the other political entities would have at least some sort of co-operative agreement with the Jedi and c) you would presumably see dozens of rogue force users operating in these non-Republic spaces with grave consequences.

You don't.

I get that Force sensitives are rare but they are sufficiently common that the Jedi Order has pretty clear and constantly renewed generations. You don't ever see only a single youngling, there aren't years or decades where there are no padawans because the seekers haven't found anyone for 20 years.

So presumably - like Anakin and Rey and Mae and Osha - force sensitives are being born pretty frequently outside the Republic. They by definition aren't being found and raised by the Jedi. Yet we don't see any especially dire consequences of this.

It therefore doesn't seem at all clear that it is a necessity for the Jedi to take these children - and the Jedi's own behaviour reinforces that conclusion.

The second claim is that the Jedi - and only the Jedi - can appropriately train these children. I think there are 2 elements to "appropriately train": the first is mechanical ie the Jedi a actually know how the force works and can teach you to move rocks or whatever and the second is a question of values or philosophy ie the Jedi teach you selflessness.

Notably, the Jedi actually blend these 2. They explicitly discuss "right" and "wrong" ways to achieve the same outcome. You can find your calm centre and channel the Force dispassionately to lift a rock, you can also tap into your emotions to do so. These achieve the same output with - seemingly - the same mechanic but the Jedi consider the latter pathway dangerous and inappropriate.

On the purely mechanical - they are clearly not the only people who can teach this. We know about smaller "legitimate" Force cults (like the Guardians of the Hills, Fallanassi, Sorcers of Tund, Yacombe - notably for seeking balance between light and dark in their own practice) as well as "illegitimate" cults like the Night Sisters (it is not clear to me if the Dathomiri Night Sisters and the Brendok Coven are factions of a single group or distinct) and the Sith. They were all able to manipulate and use the Force. They were all capable of teaching these abilities to others. The nature of their abilities were not perfectly consistent - different cults could do different things, including things that members of other cults would not even recognise.

Not only were there other people out there who could use the Force and teach others to do so, they were also teaching and using techniques the Jedi didn't know or understand. So the Jedi clearly were not the only people capable of this instruction.

What they did have was an effective monopoly on legitimate instruction. All the other cults mentioned were either literally illegal (Sith), totally unofficial and unrecognised and suffered some degree of official persecution (Night Sisters), or were significantly smaller and more localised than the Jedi. None enjoyed "official" status or the backing of the largest government in the GFFA like the Jedi.

On the question of values or philosophy it is clear that the Jedi don't have a monopoly on selflessness or being a good person. Nor is it evident that the very specific Jedi interpretation of "goodness" is the only tool (or even a necessary tool) to prevent Force users from becoming dangerous.

The evidence for this is the fact that with the exception of the Sith, none of the above cults seem to ever have posed some kind of meaningful or sustained threat to peace or stability in the GFFA. There have been individual members who have done bad, even monstrous things, but there is nothing inherent in their philosophy that makes them or their use of the Force dangerous.

Equally, it is worth coming back to the prior point that the Jedi have - throughout history - been the single most common source of Sith. In fact they seem to be the only one of these cults that has any record of inadvertently being a source for future Sith. That is to say - all Sith seem to either be raised from "birth"/only ever been trained by other Sith (like Maul, or Palpatine) or to be former Jedi.

So we are now in a place where i) untrained Force sensitives don't actually pose some kind of existential threat ii) the Jedi are not the only people capable of providing technical instruction in using the Force and iii) there is nothing particular about Jedi teachings that makes them especially resistant to the dark side in general and Sith in particular. If anything, they seem more likely to inadvertently produce future Sith than the other cults.

A small diversion to explore what it is the Jedi seek to teach and how: Attachment is bad.

I would argue the Jedi restrictions on emotion are significantly more extensive than that. It is functionally all forms of love or affection that they are opposed to or at least very disapproving of. Equally they don't seem to have much room for other emotions. Certainly not anger but not even grief or sadness. These latter 2 are in many ways the most illustrative - there is Yoda's advice that Anakin rejoice for those who transform into the Force; and in the Acolyte we got Jecki's "It's always an honour to witness anything or anyone transform into the Force".

That is bizarre as hell. Always? It is always an honour? This is the instinctive rote response to "I feel very bad for getting that animal killed"?

I am not saying that Yoda and Jecki and the Jedi teachings are completely wrong. I am saying that they don't sound like they make room for the full gamut of emotions. They don't teach "feel sad, own it, acknowledge it, process it, and let it go". They teach "don't be sad".

That is not a very helpful philosophy. It just doesn't engage with the reality that emotions are totally natural and largely unavoidable functions of human (and presumably in GFFA other sapient) physiology.

It presumably has more to it than I am acknowledging but either way it doesn't seem especially compelling. Why can't this be taught (consistently successfully) to adults? I would have reservations about ANY philosophy that openly explained that it basically only works on children who have no competing frame of reference or adults who have lost all their friends and family. That is deeply suspicious.

Even if it isn't the philosophy itself per se it says nothing good about the pedagogical methods of the Jedi.

The other consideration here is that the sensible bits of the philosophy are pretty shallow - and not at all unique to the Jedi. Especially in fandom when basically any "bad decision" by a Jedi or other Force user is explained by "oh ho they're thinking with their emotions and attachments" while "good decisions" are "Jedi-like" and must come from a place of detachment.

2 examples - Shmi's decision to let Anakin go with the Jedi is often described as "Jedi like" and demonstrates a lack of selfish attachment that Anakin would have done well to emulate. This is nonsensical for a number of reasons, not least of which being that Shmi had literally zero agency in this situation. She isn't make a real, informed choice either way. More than that, the alternative is "my child stays a slave'. Many parents all over the world (and presumably the GFFA) make sacrifices for the good of their children all the time. So these relationships clearly don't preclude someone being selfless or "unattached" as the Jedi define. Yet it remains the most commonly prohibited relationship by the Jedi. It is explicitly the one relationship they are guaranteed to prohibit for every one of their members. Mother Aniseya in the Acolyte is another example - I think her decision making around Osha is bonkers. However it is held up as selfless and unattached that it is her who chooses to let Osha go with the Jedi, and everyone else who ruins it by being attached. What is missed though is WHY she makes that decision. "I choose Mother". It is expressly in choosing to prioritise her familial relationship with Osha over her political one with the Coven that she "let's go" of Osha.

So not only do you not need to be a Jedi to make these sorts of decisions and learn these lessons, you definitely don't need to be isolated from familial relationships.

I would argue an even more interesting example from the Acolyte is Mae. In the season finale she is the only one who comes at all close to some kind of "Jedi like" decisions. She doesn't want revenge, she wants Sol to confess his crimes and face systemic justice. This from a girl whose life was ruined by the Jedi and then at some point she got found and trained by the "Sith" (I am not sold Qimir is a de jure Sith but I digress).

She was almost as far from a Jedi as possible but still came to the "Jedi like" decision. There are also lots of people with less extreme background who do the same.

So what gives? What is so special about Jedi training? I would suggest that from the perspective of teaching people the technical skills to use the force and the values to not abuse it... not much.

Certainly not enough to warrant a state backed effective monopoly that empowers you to test any child you wish and take the vast majority of them.

Even if you accept that the Jedi (and other Force cults) are right that only the Light Side can be safely used, the Jedi are not the only people who believe or teach that. So why do they deserve to be the only ones allowed to (en masse) recruit and train children?

So why then do the Jedi do it and why do the Republic allow them to do it? To me it seems much more about maintaining a monopoly on legitimate violence and use of the Force.

What taking children in early and separating them from their family, denying them any material possessions outside of their role in the Order, does is ensure they are loyal to you and don't have any other options.

The extent to which people are free to leave - formally and practically - seems very limited. In the thousands of years of the Order's written records, only 20 Masters have left. Even if we assume (eg per the Acolyte and TCW) that more non-masters have left, it remains a very small number. The practical limitations seem most pertinent - as per Osha, as well as our own observations - being raised a Jedi just doesn't prepare you to do anything except be a Jedi. Add that to the lack of network or resources outside the Order (as well as eg material threats of slavery because people want access to Force sensitives), and it becomes very difficult to leave willingly.

@redrikki has written compelling on this but the Jedi are demonstrably a cult. A significant element of that is the concentration of political, material, and in Star Wars metaphysical power.

Specifically recruiting and isolating and raising children serves the Jedi's aims of i) ensuring their ongoing hegemony and ii) is a mechanism for preventing or suppressing conflict. You simply diminish the number of people who can actually enter into conflict with you because you do your best to ensure they're all working for you. This is plausibly at least partially noble - you head off any conflicts that might require your intervention.

That nobility is thinned by the earlier discussion because it begs the question of what kind of conflict are the Jedi preventing (or gearing up to fight)?

Let us be clear - the Sith are a toxic, destructive ideology that should be opposed. Their philosophy is self-serving and violent. They are quite literal evil.

I just don't think their existence justified the children taking and isolating as many children as they can. This is especially true in the 1000 years leading up to the Prequels. As far as the Jedi believed, there were no Sith. So not even the Jedi were using the Sith - and any conflict with them, which I would say is a justified conflict - as the justification for the policy.

What kind of conflicts were they therefore seeking to prevent? I would suggest they were attempting to avoid any conflict over resources or support or legitimacy with other smaller Force cults. Even worse, I think they were avoiding a scenario where it became plausible to argue that the Jedi weren't necessary at all.

In a world where the Jedi are not actively recruiting children I would imagine 2 things happen: other Force cults become larger and more prominent, sufficiently large to start exerting political influence. This is not necessarily counter to the Jedi or a threat but it is also not necessary aligned with the Jedi. Even if not malicious, it would be a different set of priorities and a different set of philosophies that the Jedi (and the Republic writ large) would need to engage with.

These cults are different to each other and the Jedi. They by definition do not agree on all/some of the mechanics of the Force, the values and philosophies that govern it, its appropriate use, and the role of Force sensitives in the Galaxy. If they were perfectly aligned they wouldn't be distinct cults. These different groups operating in the galaxy, recruiting, preaching, proselytising pose a necessary risk (or at least complication) to the Jedi's role.

At minimum it likely results in someone somewhere asking "what is up with all these cults? Are they all Jedi? Do they all get the same rights and privileges?" and this opens up a series of conversations as to which groups get what and why. In a broadly pluralist context, as the Republic seems to be, it isn't clear to me that you could neatly draw that out in a way that is clear and practicable to the Senate.

If they do start actively behaving or advocating in ways that are counter to the Jedi's interests, it is unclear how the Jedi could respond. Let's assume the Jedi have the best interest of the Republic at heart. Let's assume the other groups do too (or at least are willing to say they are, even if self-serving). How would these disagreements get resolved in a way that is systemically defensible and legitimate in the eyes of the galaxy? "The Force says so" is not really an option when both parties can legitimately use it.

It is far simpler for the Jedi to just head this off by ensuring these other cults remain small, or at least the Jedi remain significantly larger and more wide spread.

The other thing that happens if the Jedi don't have a near monopoly on force sensitive kids, is many of these kids grow up... basically fine. Sure they're lucky and fast and good at telling when people are lying, and probably crazy good at Space Baseball and whatever, but they don't pose any kind of major threat to the galaxy. Based on what we have seen, and the lack of rogue force sensitives going on rampages outside the Republic, this seems like the most likely outcome.

How do the Jedi justify themselves to the Senate then? How do they maintain their independence and status if you've got non-Jedi force sensitives running for office or serving in the diplomatic corp? Non-Jedi force sensitives in the policing and security services?

A significant element of the Jedi's status and privilege is that they are legitimately very, very good at things. The Force does make you better at discerning the truth, reading people, sensing the long term outcomes of decisions, combat etc. It makes the Jedi significant assets.

They're also a mysterious and poorly understood religious order. For historical reasons this has been tolerated, and the Jedi have justified their ongoing independence through effectiveness and lack of alternatives.

Lots of non-Jedi Force sensitives, with access to non-Jedi teachers who can still teach them the mechanics of the Force, severely challenges that status.

Again this is not a wholly or even mostly nefarious concern for the Jedi to have. In the same way that more planets/entities having independent militarised security forces ala the Trade Federation might be a challenge to stability, having more (potentially militarised) Force sensitives has a risk. However, the policy of Jedi monopoly on recruitment is only one way of managing that risk, and it is a way that simultaneously cements their position in the Republic.

Importantly - this also all suits the Republic itself. While I am sure some people want their own Force sensitive armies, no one wants someone else to have them. I also imagine no one is excited about having to fund a second or third mysterious religion filled with (potentially) super powered warrior diplomats. No one wants more competing interests and jurisdictional debates etc.

So I don't think this is an example of the Jedi somehow tricking the Republic or behaving deceitfully or doing anything except their very best to do what they think is right.

That just doesn't mean this isn't a political policy.

[mfshipbracket]

as a permanent resident of the star wars fandom and also someone who's a ben solo fan but a reylo disliker, i feel like i can add a little bit of clarity to "why hate reylo":

i think a main reason people dislike reylo has a lot to do with the fact that after the force awakens, the other "main" characters of that trilogy (finn and poe specifically, the two non-white men) were written to the side in a sense, while kylo ren suddenly was at the forefront of the movies alongside rey. the fact that finn's whole premise - a force sensitive person who chose to stop being a stormtrooper - was basically ignored to further develop the turmoil of the villain, which pissed off a lot of people who already had an idea in their minds of rey and finn being together.

personally as someone who lost interest in the sequels with the last jedi (perceived luke skywalker characterization crimes are unforgivable to me) i vaguely enjoyed finnrey and much preferred finnpoe or finnreypoe (that hug during the rise of skywalker 🫶 it's canon to ME) but never really watched the movies for ships. i remember even coming out of the last jedi and thinking there was no way they were actually going to make reylo canon. it didn't feel like they had any chemistry then and it still doesn't feel that way now, and i just rewatched the rise of skywalker while at star wars celebration last month for some goddamn reason so i'm basically an expert (that is a joke)

i very clearly remember watching the kiss scene in rise of skywalker and instantly bursting into laughter. it didn't feel earned, it didn't even feel relevant. it felt like they kissed because it said so in the script. that's just my own opinion, clearly other people think otherwise because there is still a dedicated reylo fan base even today, good for them! but i actually was genuinely shocked they went that direction. after shafting john boyega and oscar isaac in order to give the white leads more screentime, the whole concept of reylo left a bad taste in my mouth, even though i normally go crazy over enemies to lovers, the more crimes against each other the better, etc etc etc (i am also a danmei fan).

anyways if you like the concept of reylo but hate the execution go read star wars the high republic!!! hashtag axelgella nation. there are literally ten of us

i love u. thank you for the information and also recommendation LOL… i don’t have much to add onto this . again others are welcome to add on <3 we super appreciate yours & others’ thoughtful responses about this

[hux-and-gay]

Okay I’m not a Reylo shipper (obviously) and I am certainly not a Rey fan, but I saw a post on it earlier that said that Kylo is constantly gaslighting and lieing to Rey to make her believe that he is the one that cares about her and can help her. But like idk man I just always assumed he was being genuine, like he actually thought he was telling the truth. Like he genuinely thought Rey’s parents were nobody, like Snoke told That or did whatever force thing to make him believe that so he told her that because like believe it or not he’s not mean? Maybe I missed something in the movies i just had to post this bc I hate Kylo getting mischaracterized.

[chevelleneech]

Getting bombarded with Reylo and Namor/Shuri in my algorithm has really made me rethink being an Oshamir shipper, lol.

Ship whatever you want, but maaaaaaan I truly am not a huge fan of Reylos. The ship itself is whatever to me, because like Namor/Shuri, I simply don’t get romantic vibes. But the fan base for Rey and Kylo turned my stomach way back when, because so many of them were horrible to John Boyega for no reason. Not all of them, obviously, but I did not have a fun experience with the sequel trilogy because of all the racism, and now it’s bringing that same fan base back around and idk. It’s odd to me that so many of them are feeling vindicated, yet are low key still being racist.

Yes, they ship a biracial Black person with a Filipino man, but a lot of the Reylo accounts I’m coming across are also constantly saying stuff like “Why couldn’t Reylo have this hype?” or “Oshamir shippers need to thank Reylo for paving the way!” And I’m just over here like… But y’all were being racist though… what is there to thank?

Enemies to lovers is not a concept that began and ended with Reylo, but also, trying to make the thrill of Osha and Qimir getting together all about two white people, knowing how the same fandom treated a Black actor in defense of said white characters, rubs me the wrong way. So now I’m wondering if involving myself in the fandom is even worth it, because it has such a large demographic of white fans who seemingly only care about the ship because they can project Reylo on to it.

And I’m also nervous that if Amandla or Manny say a single thing against Reylo, not even negatively but anything their hardcore shippers dislike, they’ll turn on them. Amandla is already getting hate for just being the main character in the first place, so coupled with how I’m feeling about Reylo shippers at the moment, I don’t know. I just don’t want a ship with no white characters involved, to be taken over by entitled white fans, who seemingly see no issue with the reason so many people disliked their fan base in the first place. It wasn’t just because they shipped Rey and Kylo. There were real world issues at play, and I feel like they’re simmering again.

[stonegoldsxcrxt]

Okay so I honestly haven’t been active on tumblr in forever. But if I’m ever thinking of star wars, I like to take a peek at your blog because I feel like you are one of the few who loves Luke as much as I do. But what I want rn is to give my two cents on this whole acolyte thing. And I hope you don’t think I am trying to come at/attack you or anything of the sort. This is just my (somewhat complicated?) take on things. Sorry if this gets super long. I have many thoughts. And I hope I don’t confuse at all while trying to explain! Unfortunately, I’m not very eloquent lol. Anyway:

Personally? I’m kinda intrigued by the Osha/Qimir dynamic. And this is coming from someone who honestly severely disliked the sequels—especially kylo and reylo (but a lot of it was due to fandom bs as well). I mean, I’ll admit some of it is due to my own bias because this time around I’m glad both of the actors are hot and they are both absolutely acting their asses off. And maybe there hasn’t been enough for you in the show (I get it tbh, the episodes are short and there’s only so much you can do with 8 episodes and this is honestly a problem with D+ and a lot of streaming services now), but I can see what Leslye was aiming for with the dynamic. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is one of my fave movies so I definitely see the influence. But Headland did also point out that a lot of enemies to lovers is about one character going “I know there’s good in you!” or what the hell ever—and Osha didn’t do that. That’s something I can appreciate whereas in TLJ it seemed like Rey was all about freaking Kylo and was convinced there was still good in him even though the literal day before he had nearly killed both her and Finn.

I do disagree about there being no manipulation, though. Qimir IS being honest and vulnerable, but clearly he hopes to gain something with Osha from that. But whereas I didn’t buy any of it with Rey and Kylo, I can see how and why Osha might fall to the dark side. She is clearly conflicted about everything from her emotions to her very own identity. But Qimir is offering her a sense of clarity about that AND on her past. Osha loves and admires Sol deeply of course, but he has obviously been keeping something huge from her. And if it turns out he was majorly involved with whatever happened to her coven, it makes sense that Osha would then embrace whatever negative emotions that are brewing within her (even if Sol was slightly less involved the fact that he knew and never told her should rightfully make her angry). It will obviously destroy whatever faith she had left in the Jedi, but imo she might begin to question how it makes the Jedi any different from Qimir.

And now that I’ve explained that, I also wanted to say how I felt about some of the discourse. Fandom feuds are always annoying, but now that I’m essentially on the other side...? I’ve gotta say I am low-key offended and high-key pissed over it. I mean, if ppl don’t like Qimir or the relationship between him and Osha—fine. But I’ve seen some absolutely disgusting comments over this. Like someone on twitter (who ss a post of yours too) who was calling Leslye Headland’s lesbianism into question. Like idc if you don’t like the ship but there is literally no need for discussing her sexuality like that just because she likes a problematic ship you hate (which she literally created so idk what ppl expected anyways)!!! And then there are the “fans” (I use that term lightly) insulting Manny Jacinto’s looks (which is ridiculous cause the man is hot idgaf). And I honestly think that shit is hypocritical af since a lot of these ppl are fans who were rightfully upset at reylo/kylo stans for saying similar disgusting things about actual people.

I like quite a few villains in multiple fandoms, so to me it seems like the same ridiculous arguments. There’s nothing wrong with liking a fictional character who happens to be a villain. As long as no one’s trying to make excuses for their heinous actions (jokes are another thing) I don’t think it matters. It’s literally not that deep imo. And liking said problematic characters does not have anything to do with people’s real life morals. That’s just bullshit.

And again, it’s actually INCREDIBLY fucking hypocritical, ESPECIALLY coming from star wars fans who have been sexualizing villains like Darth Maul, Thrawn, and a young freaking Darth Vader for YEARS. But now it’s a problem with Qimir????? Not to mention the romanticization of other literal problematic ships like anidala or reylo. And I’ll be honest—as a Filipina????? I do feel like some of this is racially motivated because literally WHAT is the difference with Qimir and Osha/Qimir versus all of these other characters and ships?????? I think that’s what gets me heated is the hypocrisy of it all. And of course the fact that it’s all fictional anyway so I don’t know why it should fucking matter to some people if fans like a character or ship that they don’t.

Anyways...I think this is essentially all of my thoughts on the matter. Again, I hope I didn’t come across as rude or like I was attacking you. Like I said, it IS a bit complicated for me. Because as someone who hardly liked anything from the sequels, I was definitely cringing at the multiple mentions of reylo and kylo in Leslye’s recent interview. And yet....I see the vision.

hey!! so, there's a lot here and I do actually want to talk about all of it! I really appreciate you approaching this with nuance and being open to have a conversation. I'm gonna number my responses just so I know I covered everything I wanted to talk about and everything you mentioned.

One: I don't think there's anything wrong with being intrigued by a character dynamic like Osha and Qimir's, in fact I actually do find it very interesting from a psychological standpoint myself. I also don't think there's anything wrong with depicting a character dynamic like Osha and Qimir's, with one caveat, which is that you have to recognize it for what it is. I truly would LOVE star wars to approach it with the angle of "hey, this is how people can weaponize your own emotions against you, especially how a man may try (and even succeed) in manipulating a woman this way," and particularly what that looks like with the Force, because a LOT of Jedi and Sith principles are based around the acceptance (or aggravation!) of emotions. I think that's a totally interesting plot line that would actually be super fascinating to see. I also find it believable that Osha could, theoretically, be convinced by Qimir and turn (in fact I think your entire third paragraph is a very valid interpretation of what has happened so far). It's not that I don't think these are fascinating possibilities to explore. It's not that I don't think Osha joining the dark side is out of the question or even unreasonable, whatever the reason.

In fact, pre-interview, almost all of my criticism was pointed at the way the fandom immediately jumps to believing everything Qimir is saying without thinking critically about how he could be lying to Osha to get her to act the way that he wants her to. This comes from an intense place of frustration dealing with fandom in general who excuse the violent actions of men towards women (which is the reason why that one post doesn't actually even name Qimir or Osha, even though I did tag their names, since it applies to like a half dozen ships I can think of off the top of my head). In fact, I praised the writing of the acolyte in my breakdown post, assuming that Headland was purposefully creating all the cunning ways Qimir talks to Osha and all the tactics he appears to be using to manipulate her, and that this would be plot relevant. Whether Osha realized she was being manipulated and snapped out of it, or whether she never realized it, and fell to the dark side, and what that would mean for her, etc.

However, post-interview, things are different. No more am I simply dealing with a fandom that is willfully misinterpreting a toxic relationship as romantic, I am now dealing with the showrunner herself saying lots of things that disturb me. I can give her credit for not pulling the "there's good in him" card, but that's about as good as I can do. Headland may say that she does not intend the relationship to be manipulative, that she intends for Osha and Qimir to be equals, but if what she has presented to us onscreen does not read that way, then she has failed to accurately convey her message as the showrunner. You and I agree that Qimir is manipulating Osha, yet Headland says the opposite. I now have a showrunner for Star Wars, a massive franchise viewed by thousands, giving interviews saying that there is nothing wrong with this man's relationship with this young woman, but continuing to show the opposite. She can't have it both ways. The statement "Osha and Qimir are equals," is simply so far removed from the reality of what Headland has presented Qimir to be (a conniving man who is strong enough in the Force to eliminate a dozen Jedi at a time, and is so callus that he calls a girl an "it" after he's murdered her) that it's such an unbelievable statement I actually can't even believe people are buying it. I'm not saying that to be mean; what makes Qimir and Osha equals? Genuinely? That he cooks soup sometimes? That he disrobed in front of her? What about this relationship is equal?

Here's my bottom line when it comes to this discourse: I am sick of seeing young women getting treated like shit by men, and it getting romanticized as hot and desirable instead of what it is. I am sick of it whether the fandom does it, I am sick of it whether the showrunner does it, I am sick of it whether people in real life or in fiction do it, and I am allowed to feel that way.

Two: I won't be insulting Manny Jacinto in any capacity. He's doing a good job as an actor. I have acknowledged in past posts that he is obviously an attractive man.

If you think Qimir is hot, please, by all means, feel free to sexualize him in the manner that others sexualize Thrawn or Maul or anyone else. I'm an advocate of self insert fanfiction and of course (within reason), would find nothing wrong with that.

I am generally not a villain-lover, but there is nothing wrong with finding villains attractive or compelling! I haven't said there is. I have said that there's a problem within fandom and now literally within the media itself, with recognizing when a young woman is being mistreated by someone, sometimes because a lot of you are far more lenient on attractive men. The reylo fandom took this about twenty steps too far from 2015-2019 to the point where if you ask some of them, they still don't think Kylo even WAS the villain, and Headland is rapidly encouraging fans to take that angle with Qimir though I have given evidence to the contrary in spades.

There is a lot to be said about whether or not fiction affects reality. I believe it does, but I obviously do not believe that liking an evil character makes you evil. That being said, while not all fiction has a moral, all fiction has a theme, and you as the audience do take lessons from themes, whether you realize it or not; it sticks with you and may help you form your opinion on a similar set of circumstances you may come face-to-face with later. Fiction affects our feelings on a situation. A disturbing theme I'm seeing a LOT of in Star Wars lately is men being cruel to women in one way or another and the women finding it attractive and acceptable. Of course, depiction is not automatically endorsement... until we have now literally seen this type of relationship fully endorsed by Lucasfilm showrunners and directors twice in a row. Tweens and teenage girls *will* watch the sequel trilogy and the acolyte... what are they taking away from it? From what the director or showrunner has said about it? Honestly, this is much less about fandom to me now, and more about how official creators are treating these dynamics.

Three and finally and most important: I'm sorry that you've been seeing things like that being said about Headland, I think that's bizarre, rude, and uncalled for. I often do not go looking in fandom spaces anymore so I have not seen this, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. I generally do not trust Headland's creative input anymore, nor do I necessarily even like her, HOWEVER, I have not and will not make any such comment on her sexuality as it has nothing to do with any of this. I don't know which post of mine they screenshot, and I'd like more information actually, if they are using my post to say I think those things too, but regardless, I would not say this about her, or about anyone, and I don't condone it.

This is absolutely not racially motivated from me and I want to make that absolutely clear. I have been vehemently anti-reylo since the day I learned it existed, so I hope that you do not feel as though I am speaking out against the way that the Osha and Qimir storyline has been handled out of such a place, and I would never want anything to come across that way in any of my analysis or critiques. You will find I usually have less to say about anidala, seeing as the majority of the fandom does not depict Anakin as "doing nothing wrong" in that relationship, nor does the source material, so I feel I do not have to explain as much as I do with reylo and now Osha/Qimir. I want to make that absolutely clear that this type of relationship being presented in this type of way is a huge red flag for me regardless of the races of the characters involved. If you refer to the fandom at large, I don't want to invalidate your experiences, and don't know what other people are saying or what their reasons are. Unfortunately the acolyte fandom has been riddled with homophobia and racism since before the first episode even aired, and I want to make it clear that I think all of that is entirely unacceptable and that my critiques have nothing to do with either of those hateful ideologies.

[jessicas-pi]

Can you do mandolREYian (I think I spelled that right) for the ask game

OOOOH yes ok

SO, this is a Mandoverse/Sequels AU where Rey is rescued and adopted by Din Djarin and Bo-Katan shortly after the Mandalorian S3 finale. (She's several years older than in canon, which is why that works timeline-wise.) She has a fun and crazy childhood (including a bestfriendship with poe dameron that leaves a lifelong impact on her sense of humor and sarcasm levels. this is relevant) until the poodoo hits the fan and everything falls apart. cue the sequel trilogy, but with fifteen times more shenanigans and silliness!

Here's a snippet!

They stared at each other from beneath their own helmets. “So,” she said, after fifteen or so seconds. “Who talks first, you or me?” He stood up, slowly pacing in a circle around her, and when he spoke, his voice was badly distorted. “That is the second time in two days someone said that to me.” The irreverence seemed to irritate him, which was just fine by Rey. “Who was the other one? Was it Poe? I bet it was Poe.” “It is no concern of yours…” He stopped. “…Din Rey, Clan Kryze.” She hadn’t gone by that name in years, and hearing it froze her in place. “What did you call me?” “Your name.” Rey tried to untense her shoulders and even her breathing. “How did you know that?” “You might say that I am…” He paused, then reached up and took his helmet in his hands, sliding it off with a hiss. “…an old friend.” Silence hung like a fraying thread between them as familiar dark eyes stared straight into hers, even through her helmet’s visor. She slumped backwards, armor clattering against the table. Rey stared at the ceiling, waiting for her brain to compute this. And she burst into laughter. “You are so dead, Ben.” He scowled. “My name is Kylo Ren.” “Oh my gosh. That’s adorable,” she said flatly. “You even gave yourself a new name. You’re really leaning into the goth phase, aren’t you?”

[gffa]

Hi!  I'm not sure how much help I'm going to be because my view of the sequel trilogy lives in kind of a nebulous space, where I really like the characters and I actually like a lot of the potential of the storyline, but I dislike TFA, greatly dislike TLJ, and was actually pretty okay with TROS all things considered. I don't want to dig too deep into the negativity of my feelings but they're basically - TFA was too much of a repainting of ANH for me, the initial shine of it was through its potential, but when that didn't pay off in the other movies, the shine came off TFA, too. - TLJ was set too close to TFA, Finn's character should have been tied into the Canto Bight plot (which was exhausting as it was), as a stolen child soldier he has the most reason to hate the rich, but absolutely nothing was done with him, Luke being on that island for that long was out of character for him, Rey's entire story became wrapped up in Kylo Ren, neither of those characters had nearly enough connections with others despite having very good reasons to, like why do we not spend more time on Luke & Kylo?? and it played at being subversive but it absolutely was not, it's all been done before (and I really hated the way Force abilities worked in the movie) and killing off your main villain in the second act was a baffling decision - TROS' biggest problem is that it should have been two movies instead of one, it was a series of trailers rather than a story with breathing room, and it suffered the most from the lack of planning + the main villain being killed off in the second movie But here's why I still like The Rise of Skywalker the best:  The bones of what's there are a pretty good Star Wars story!  Yes, Rey Palpatine came out of nowhere and was very silly, but if you can't handle silly, I don't know how you can make it as a Star Wars fan, it's such a silly franchise! I'm not afraid to love a scene I laugh out loud at--and, yeah, I laughed RIGHT OUT LOUD the first time Kylo dramatically said, "You're a Palpatine."  I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes and let me tell you, I fucking LOVE that scene now. Or how the last words of any Skywalker, the last word Ben Solo/Kylo Ren ever says in the movies' franchise is, "Ow."  I am laughing RIGHT NOW, please, p l e a s e, that is so on-brand, I can't handle it, it's too funny. But I also like the basic storyline because Rey's story in TROS is her struggling with her own inner darkness, that she feels there's something dark in her soul because she's Palpatine's granddaughter.  The movie isn't saying that's true, but that Rey struggles with thinking it's true, and she has to wrestle with her dark side, just like every Jedi before her has as they're coming into their power. Anakin wrestled with his dark side and lost in Attack of the Clones and even worse in Revenge of the Sith. Luke wrestled with his dark side in the vision he sees of himself in Vader's helmet in the cave in ESB and in the climactic scene of ROTJ, where he nearly hacks his father's arm off in rage after his sister and friends are threatened.  He has to claw his way back out of that. Ezra Bridger struggles with the dark side in Rebels as he comes into his power and he has to claw his way out of it as well. Rey has to struggle with her own lure towards the dark side as she comes into her power--she rips a ship apart in the sky because she was so determined that Chewie was hers, she was so angry at Kylo that Force lightning burst out of her.  She's seeing Sith visions of herself on the wreckage of the Death Star.  This is a theme that has been there since the very beginning, that Jedi have to struggle through a temptation to the dark, and her relation to Palpatine preys on that. That's kind of why I wound up loving Ben's scene with Han as well, because that was an entirely imagined scene, but it represents that the way the Force works, you have to dig yourself out of the hole you're in, that Ben using the memory of his father, the last moments of connection he had with his mother, to pull himself out of the dark, really worked for me.  And I'm okay with his death, because this is Star Wars, people die before they should all the time. I even liked the political message of the final movie, yes, Rey vs Palpatine was the big Jedi vs Sith showdown, but the main galactic battle?  Had people showing up.  Just... people.  One of the themes I've talked a lot about, especially because The Clone Wars kind of has it as a running theme is that the average galactic citizen doesn't do jack shit about the state of the galaxy they live in.  The Rebellion had people starting to stand up, but it was an organized effort, it recruited people. TROS had just people showing up, that Leia and the Resistance had been trying to rally the cause, but ultimately it was the galactic public finally, finally saying, "We have to stand up and fight for ourselves, not depend on other people to do it."  Was it ham-fisted and not nearly as polished as it should have been?  Oh, no doubt.  But the message.  Just people showing up to fight against the First Order that was trying to bring back the Empire.  That meant a lot to me. And I loved Luke's character here, that he admitted when he was wrong, and gave us that banger line that's spot on:  "Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi."  Yes.  Yes.  FUCKING YES.  LUKE SKYWALKER AND JEDI PHILOSOPHY.  MY HEART.  Nailed it. Does this movie hang together as well as it should?  Absolutely not.  It needed a stronger writer, it needed more time than it got, and it needed better build-up.  But the bones of what was there were actually pretty good and, man, any movie that has Daisy Ridley in that white outfit with the hood where she looked practically ethereal cannot be all bad, in my opinion.

[anarchistauthor]

The Last Jedi, the Last Good Star Wars Movie

I'm gonna go ahead and preface this by saying, I have no idea how this will play with my social circle here on Tumblr. I know how my Twitter and Bluesky friends feel about SW, but not y'all. I don't think I've ever even seen a post about it here, and I don't care to go look. Bottom line, I have too many opinions and not enough people who agree with me, so now you have to suffer through this essay. You're welcome.

I was a fan of SW at least as early as I have memories. I'm 29 years old, which means I grew up firmly in the prequel era, and watched them young enough that I didn't even realize older people hated them. Obi-wan was my hero, not my mentor, I never really identified with Anakin and always liked Obi the most. But, and this is important, I loved Star Wars and thought all of it was good. I read one EU book set between episodes 1 and 2, I watched as much of the original Clone Wars series as I could, and I played lightsabers during recess in school. I am at least as nostalgic as every gen xer who laments a bygone era when SW was good because they don't understand that they just liked things better as a kid. But, the difference is, that kind of person tends to despise everything about the sequel trilogy, in my experience. Not so for me.

The Force Awakens was a pretty good movie in my eyes, when I first saw it. I did notice the deja vu, I had very little actual interest in Rey as a character, but just having a female force user at the forefront was huge to me, and it was certainly, at least, a solid foundation for the next two movies. My biggest TFA hot take is that Kylo Ren was the perfect antagonist for this movie, as basically a spoiled shithead who is a fanboy of his grandpa and wants so, so badly to be cool like him. I was also the sort of person who got really invested in the ~mystery~ of Rey's origin, and the speculation of her parentage.

Enter TLJ. My first emotion, at several points during this movie, was dismay. I couldn't believe they just made Rey some random person, after setting up that her background was vague and mysterious! I couldn't believe that Luke never fought anybody and then he died! But, very quickly after, I had time to process my emotions, and I realized that this movie was something special. It manages to "yes, and" TFA while also roasting me for investing so much passion into the questions it rose. "You thought she would somehow be Obi-wan's daughter? Are you serious?" And when you get angry at that, you're met with the obvious question, "Why should it matter?" It shouldn't. We want to see the characters we love come back, but when it comes to this girl, this hero, why should she have to be related to some old dead guy in order to be special? The Force is everywhere, it lives in all of us. That is the central point of TLJ. And, arguably on purpose, this film pissed off Star Wars fans more than anything ever could.

TLJ isn't just a movie that taunts the audience for speculating based on its predecessor, it taunts the audience for being overly invested in the entire franchise. TLJ looks at its series, it looks at the people who watch it, and it demands that you question your relationship with the material. It calls you a fool for assuming that an emotionally-stunted young adult like Luke would become a well-rounded mentor, for assuming that he was incapable of being tempted by darkness, for worshipping him as a pure hero. Because, who is Luke? He was a kid who was bored with simple life, got pulled away into a galactic conflict, and pretty much stumbled his way through saving the world. Even at the final moment, he was very close to murdering his father out of rage. Do you think that's just gonna go away after Palpatine died? Just because Luke put his sword away? No. It also mocks you for assuming Snoke is going to be important just because he's a large man in a fancy chair. He's a parallel to the Emperor, so you assume he'll be the same, and the movie roasts you for it by killing him off unceremoniously. And the Poe plot? That is nothing but one giant own on everyone who loved Poe assuming that the cool guy hotshot was the most important and competent person in the fleet.

The intent of all this playful mockery, I believe, was to get viewers to question how they idealize the past of the franchise. That's what it did for me. But, mediocre white dudes don't like being mocked, as we all know. They take it VERY personally, and they blew up the whole thing. They harassed creatives involved, sent death threats to poor Kelly Marie, and all in all went berserk about this movie for children about space wizards. How dare it move on?! How dare it not just be about my nostalgia?! Not just white, not just men, but I don't feel any need to deny that that's the primary demographic. There was already some backlash to TFA, but TLJ pulled no punches, and the most perpetually-offended fandom in the world lived up to its name. It's really that simple. And as a result, the Disney Overlords scrambled to make them calm down. Enter...Rise of Skywalker.

I. Fucking. HATE this movie. Apart from the fact that it tries to undo everything I loved about TLJ, it's poorly made in more conventional ways. Rushed pace, aimless writing, having no idea what to do with the characters, (not to mention giving the black protagonist a black girlfriend who has all the same backstory and traits as him, lest anyone ship him with Poe) it is the epitome of a movie that only exists for nostalgia, but it can't even do that well. If there's one lesson I've learned from the sequel trilogy, it's that JJ Abrams is not only a trashfire of a director, but he is utterly incapable of reacting to what happened in the previous movie, because he spent so much runtime just calling Rian Johnson a liar! "Rey's not no one, instead she has the most asinine backstory in the history of the franchise." To me, it reeks of a man who despised the way Rian responded to him, and is just desperate to overrule it. As a writer myself, I can't even imagine doing something like that instead of doing my best to work with what came before. The definition of hack behavior.

TLJ was a movie that tried to move Star Wars into the future, to divorce it from idolatry of the past, but ROS is a movie designed with intent to reel it back in, to say, "Hold on, art and creativity are great and all, but Disney gotta make them nostalgia bucks." A return to hero worship, to centering the leads of decades ago, to feeding the lore rather than telling a story. And the fact that it followed a film that told the story it wanted to tell and didn't give a shit how you felt about it, it's just insulting.

This is going to sound like cheesy artist babble, but to me, the art of creation is sacred, in a way. Not literally holy, but just beautiful and meaningful. Even if what comes out is bad, it's worth doing if done with sincerity. That's how I see TLJ. But given the way both fans and the rights holders reacted to it, I'm depressed and pessimistic regarding the future of the franchise. The Phantom Menace was the first movie I loved, and I still like it today. I'm sure I'll love TLJ forty years from now, and I'll probably continue to watch new SW movies when they come out. I don't know if I'll ever love a movie in the franchise again, but I can have hope. This is a movie that proved Star Wars was capable of being better, and that doesn't change just because neckbeards hate it more than they've ever hated anything. This is still going to be the franchise that has TLJ in it, and the haters can't take that from me.

[virtie333]

Let's talk Damerey.

I ended up being a VERY general fan during the SW sequels. Like...none of the ships bother me. FinnPoe? Fine. Damerey? Fine. Kylo and whomever, sure. I guess. I just want them to live and be happy.

Anyway, when did your Damerey journey start? I think I read at one point they had thought about making Poe and Rey a thing? But I guess the visions of the differing directors didn't allow for it? Did I make that up in my head?

I understand the appeal of that ship as well as FinnPoe or whatever it's called. I mean, it's Poe, so who wouldn't be obsessed lol

Anyway, thoughts?

Also, do you like to stick to Damerey fics for Poe or do you also like xreader with Poe?

Oh, boy. This might take a while.

I can honestly say I've been Damerey a lot longer than I've been a fan of Oscar Isaac. I became Damerey right after The Force Awakens. But here's the thing, I was Reylo, too. What? Okay, let me explain. I love the 'good girl falls for bad boy' trope, but I've always been realistic about it; the bad boy can't be horrible bad and has to become good eventually. I loved the idea of Rey bringing Ben back from the Dark Side, but... what he did to his father (my first love and still the one I compare to all other crushes) is unforgivable. I knew Ben Solo would NOT have a happy ending. Therefore, Rey needed to have her happily ever after with someone else. Finn or Poe? I loved them both, but I do have a thing for pilots, so I chose Poe.

The Last Jedi only increased my interest in both ships. The connection between Rey and Ben was fascinating. But... that last scene between Rey and Poe? I remember commenting to my brother after our first viewing, "They have to be planning something between them after that! Right?"

I went into the last movie wondering which way (if either) they were going to take it. I told myself I would be happy with either, and even if Rey chose no one; after all, she doesn't need a man to make her happy. But I am a hopeless romantic. After the first argument between Poe and Rey, where I nudged my brother (who I saw all 3 movies with) and said "They're just like Han and Leia!", I had hopes.

But... they failed to continue with that bright start. And with the kiss between Ben and Rey at the end, I was pretty much resolved to settle for Reylo. And that was my focus for the first couple of month after the movie. But then something strange happened. A fellow Reylo fan, who had defended the first two movies despite all the hate going on, started bemoaning how 'Rey would never be happy now,' and she 'would never get to have babies,' etc. etc. And that pissed me off. Big Time. She had options, dammit! She could stay single and raise Force sensitive orphans. She had Finn. And of course, she had Poe. So, I wrote Rising, my first fanfic in almost 20 years.

When the pandemic hit, and I ended up working part-time, I decided I needed to continue with this post-movie world I had created. I still had a soft spot for Ben, and it shows up in my early works, but I wanted to make Rey and Poe find their happily ever after. Then something else strange happened. In one of my stories, Kennera, I wrote a scene from Poe's POV. Suddenly, I wanted to know more about the actor who portrayed him. And I found this...

That was that. I was hooked on this man. I started watching everything I could with him in it. And I continued to write Damerey, falling more and more deeply into that ship. Reylo became less and less interesting to me, and now I could care less about it. Damerey is everything to me. And it's been that way for almost three years now. I just freaking love them with everything in me.

To answer your question about the ship almost becoming canon, yes it almost did. Colin Trevorrow's script The Duel of the Fates almost became the third movie, and it included a lot more Rey/Poe interaction, even a kiss or two. Some say it's why that scene at the end of The Last Jedi was added, to introduce that attraction. But alas, it didn't happen.

If you had asked me two years ago if I had read any Poe x Reader stories, I would have scoffed at you. I am a reader of novels and I write in the same style and always will, so why would I read that? But... I've read several amazing writers that write in that style since then, and I have become addicted. I know I will never write that way, but I will enjoy others.

I think the fact that I don't write that way is the reason why no one on Tumblr (other than a few trusted friends) ever reads and shares my stuff. It's a bit lonely sometimes, but it is what it is.

Damerey forever!

Art by @greysmartwolf

[artist-issues]

What's your opinion on Rey's next film after Star Wars episode 9? What do you think Lucasfilm will do with Rey's story and journey in the next film?

Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy (“Ms. Marvel”) will direct the next Rey film from a script by Steven Knight (“Peaky Blinders”).

Information about the story of Rey’s film

PUBLISHED APR 10, 2023

Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy said at the fan convention that Ridley’s new “Star Wars” movie will follow Rey as she builds a new Jedi Order, but the executive teased a bit more about the plot in an interview with IGN: “Star Wars” fans will pick up with Rey well over a decade after “The Rise of Skywalker.”

“Well we’re 15 years out from ‘Rise of Skywalker,’ so we’re post-war, post-First Order, and the Jedi are in disarray,” Kennedy confirmed. “There’s a lot of discussion around, ‘Who are the Jedi? What are they doing? What’s the state of the galaxy?’ She’s attempting to rebuild the Jedi Order, based on the books, based on what she promised Luke, so that’s where we’re going.”

As for whether Mark Hamill’s Luke Skywalker could be involved in the film via flashbacks or as a Force ghost, Kennedy said: “I don’t know if we’ll spend a lot of time in flashbacks or [on] Force ghosts or things like that, but certainly, the spirit of what he represents to her is going to be significant.”

Source: Variety

More information about the film in this post here.

I really think they lost sight of who Rey was and who she was set up to be in Episode 9. If they had completed her character arc in a meaningful way, a I feel like I would be better set up to answer this question. But as it is, she doesn’t seem to have any direction or purpose in the end of TROS.

Yeah, she’s rebuilding the Jedi, but like…why? What are they to her? The only thing she learned about the Jedi beyond myths and rumors was that they were proud fools—from Luke, that is. And then even after he died and his Force ghost had a brief moment with her, it’s not like he was really showing her what the Jedi were, or what they were like, or how to start a community of Jedi. He was just giving her general advice about how to do the right thing—and framing that with “confronting fear is the destiny of the Jedi” or whatever.

But see, that’s the thing. In the original trilogy, it made sense for Luke to end his story by training Jedi Knights and restoring the Order. He started out learning that his father was a Jedi Knight and wanting to figure out what that was so he could be one too—then he learned what that was—then he remembered his promise to Yoda to pass on what he’d learned.

Sure, Luke was learning big character lessons along the way, to apply to himself. “Let go of control, focus on doing the right thing in the present” for example. But those were lessons he learned while pursuing the goal of becoming and embodying the next generation of Jedi.

That was never Rey’s goal.

Rey’s goal was just “find my place/find out who I am.” It took all of the first movie and even part of the second in her trilogy for her to even accept that she might, in some way, be connected to the Jedi tradition. But she never promises to teach anyone else. She never promises to pass on what tiny amount she has learned. She never shows any interest in doing that. For Rey, being a Jedi only mattered in connection with answering her question “who am I?” She never showed any desire to teach anyone anything, or continue a legacy.

In the last movie, she chants “be with me,” but that comes out of nowhere. It makes no sense for her. She always wanted a family she could be with; she lost her parents, she lost Kylo Ren (who she had a deep connection with, I don’t care what kind) and she has Finn and Poe…and in TROS she treats them like they’re workplace friends, not her last remaining shot at a family.

What I’m saying is, the character goes from “I have to find out who I am” to “I have to rebuild this old religion I have no personal ties to and was never really dreaming of being a part of.” With no rhyme or reason.

So what are they going to do with this new movie?

…Anything they want, they basically retconned all of her direction, as a character, in TROS. She’s actually a Mary-Sue now. They want her to be the next Ahsoka, they can go for it. They want her to be a fallen empress, fine. They want her to marry Poe Dameron or grow old and wise like Yoda, whatever, they can do it. They’ve already proven they’ll just make up whatever they want without sticking to any of their previous decisions for her character. 🤷‍♀️

[aurora-313]

Sometimes characters with just one scene become extremely popular. Why do you think that Masaki took off and has a huge fanbase, while our dear boy Kaien has like 3 fans total? Why isn't he insanely popular?

I admit that personally I have strange tastes, not to be a hipster, for example I liked the chemistry between Fin and Rey and so no romance between Kylo and Rey, and to the internet I'm of apparently disgustingly wrong opinion.

I can't say I have the definitive answer but I can give my two cents:

Masaki has the advantage of being Ichigo's mother and the circumstances surrounding her death are somewhat mysterious.

Ichigo is the main character and she functionally serves as a major source of his angst for... extremely questionable, vague plot and character reasons. (mostly because the plot can't function if anyone bothered to tell Ichigo literally everything he has every fucking right to know, but hey... -.- )

But if I may tangent for a moment: Masaki being a Quincy is something that still has me seeing red. There's a whole other plot progression that could've made more sense and been far more concise without unnecessarily dragging a boring Quincy cast and an Aizen knock-off with a bad mustache out of the dumpster. Which would've also tied everything up in a bow with Aizen's defeat without destroying every modicum of Ichigo's agency... but that's another post for another time.

Circling back to your question: I think if the anime adapted the scenes more faithfully, especially in Soul Society, we'd have seen a larger fanbase for Kaien. A lot of Kaien's references were simply omitted. EG; Ukitake wondering what Kaien would do in the whole scenario (up to and including likely literally kicking Byakuya's ass), Rukia asks his memory why would people come for her, Byakuya flashing back with disgust and a modicum of respect when he compares Ichigo's ferocious will with Kaien's and the abandoned implied reincarnation storyline Kubo set up then abandoned during the Aizen confrontation then we'd have a lot more fans of him.

A majority of fans got into Bleach through the anime, and the anime omitted massive parts of the story that removed meaning from Kaien's character. Worst still, the last thing we see of him is an Arrancar puppeting his corpse. Which means a lot of his 'personality' is relegated to some doppelganger twisting him into monstrous parody. What a note to end on, right?

At the same time, I can see why his presence was so diminished across the manga. He entered the narrative as Rukia's source of guilt, as Ukitake's source of inspiration, as Ichigo's spiritual predecessor, as the one who introduced the concept of heart to Rukia and then gracefully bow out when Rukia allowed herself to take his final lessons to heart (pun intended) and absolve herself of guilt, symbolized in her third Zanpakutou power. (I am shocked however that given Rukia's fight with As Nodt, that we didn't get a cameo in that fear cage, especially considering given, canonically, her most horrific memory was of Metastacia!Kaien... but hey.)

But given how Kubo forgot the Visoreds were the ideal counter to the Quincy and forgot they had their masks, reducing them to chumps, how could I expect him to remember someone like Kaien...?

...

Wow. You admit to liking those characters? I'd delete them all in a heartbeat if I got Kyle Katarn, Jan Ors and Mara Jade instead... but I wouldn't trust Lucas Fims to write their way out of a paper bag if their life depended on it right now.

[benthelastskywalker]

Gaslighting by definition in any dictionary means literally convincing an individual or group that something that does take place is all in the imagination of the person/group who witnessed it. The word was coined directly from the Hitchcock film of the same name. In the situation of DisneyLucasfilm and Ben Solo, gaslighting is absolutely taking place. To deny it is to be a gaslighter as well. The Reylo/Ben side of the fandom scattered to the four corners and never recovered after TROS was released and Disney unleashed their wrath on Ben Solo supporters. The original Reylo/Ben fandom on Tumblr is long gone, and the fan artists who migrated to Twitter are among the only people left and they don’t even acknowledge that the fandom still exists on Tumblr due to their own self importance.

Even Adam said in various interviews that people deny exist but they are online for anyone to watch, that he hung up his Kylo costume and will not return. His red carpet interview from TRoS premiere was so successfully hidden by Disney that 99.9% of his fans don’t know he even has one. Unless someone is going to retcon Ben’s death and release the originally filmed version (what was shown in theaters and on dvd is actually reversed film for his final scene), there is no storyline that could possibly work to bring him back. The retcon of the franchise thanks to TROS erased all main points from as far back as The Phantom Menace. While there is a fan theory that he could be in the World Between Worlds, as was mentioned in the original storyboards and supplemental books, disenchanted angry people who left the fandom said that it isn’t possible for him to leave the World Between Worlds without Rey’a assistance when their precious Anakin can and did come and go at will with no consequences. If anyone brings up the possibility, they are ridiculed for not knowing anything about Ben or the Force or the Galaxy Far Far Away. And also that he is the most problematic character who deserved to die. Make it make sense. If Ben and Rey are the sacred Dyad that the movie and fans claim, then it is beyond disrespectful to treat Ben like literal feces under someone’s shoe because they think Anakin is superior. It only makes the fanboys win in the end.

I am one of people who believes in the WBW theory, but we'll just have to wait and see. Many actors have said they'd never return to roles, only to do just that. I hope Adam realizes that for every fan who hates Kylo/Ben there are much more who love the character and would love for him to return. I've seen several youtube videos saying that Ben's turn is the only thing that would save SW at this point and I agree. SW keeps revisiting the same areas in time over and over and it's starting to run thin. The only thing they haven't addressed yet is after TROS and a lot of fans have no interest in anything like that if Ben isn't in it.

[rhea-of-kaylie]

Just so we're clear - because I've seen this way too much recently - not all reylos are implicitly racist? Not sure why this is hard to grasp for y'all.

The misbelief comes from the assertion that because reylos don't want Finn and Rey to be romantically endgame, they're racist because they don't want a white heroine involved with a black hero. On the surface, I understand these concerns. Rey is the morally pure white heroine. For her to be anything but Finn's friend complicates the comforts of traditional, conservative American society. However, I am not trying to undermine the validity of interracial relationships in storytelling or in real life by finding the reylo dynamic more appealing. We can and should include more representation of interracial couples in all storytelling mediums and genres.

Personally, the mythicality and balance between Rey and Ben is simply more exciting than the possible strangers to friends to lovers dynamic Rey and Finn could have had.

I've also seen criticisms of reylo as it relates to Kylo Ren being essentially an active agent for the First Order, the newest iteration of Star Wars space Nazis. Rest assured, internet, I also hate the First Order and what they stand for. Additionally, I hate what Ben Solo did when he was called Kylo Ren. Most, if not all, reylos will condemn the actions and ideologies of Kylo Ren. Reylo is and always has been about Ben Solo's inevitable redemption. He couldn't be with Rey until he reconciled his evil choices. (And most of us are wholly dissatisfied with how TROS inadequately addressed Kylo Ren's redemption).

We do also know that there's a very large overlap between stormpilot shippers and reylos right??? (ie reylos are the same people who want a gay relationship between a black man and a hispanic man, both of whom are fervent believers in violent revolution against a white supremacy-coded regime. Cathartic as hell and a 'fuck you' to the real basement-dweller racist Star Wars fans if you ask me.)

Anyway, hope this helps.

[ghostmartyr]

I don't often think about how I would have wanted the Star Wars sequels to play out, because I am firmly a "lightsabers cool" level fan and happy about it.

But I wanted one specific thing from the third movie. Because I am easy and a sap, and it appeals so dearly to me. Simple setup: Kylo Ren has alienated every single being in the galaxy, removing all desire for anyone to help him by just sinking further and further into rage -- Rey was the last person left willing to try, and will 100% shoot him in the head if she sees him. It's a running gag, it never works, but she always hopes it will and gives her and Finn a moment to throw the lightsaber back and forth because they're multiclass heroes.

No Palpatine stuff, just Kylo Ren actively digging the hole deeper and taking the whole galaxy down with him while the heroes do Hero Stuff and look amazing doing it.

(Because this is a daydream, throw in Leia flashbacks of every moment she ever had in Darth Vader's presence, her revulsion at being his child and her joy at having a twin, and the complicated quagmire of emotion that is her brother choosing to find good in a monster, and wondering if her refusal to entertain the thought with Vader is why her son won't come back to her. No one person is worth another Alderaan. She loves him and loves him and loves him, but. She dreams of killing Vader and the face behind the mask is never Anakin Skywalker's.)

Explosions, battles, blaster fire making cool pew pew noises, epic dual-fighting moments with Finn and Rey vs. Kylo Ren -- whatever, take your backdrop and run with it, mostly.

All I wanted from Kylo Ren's plot was for his uncle to come back and haunt him with love until it took. No one has any patience for him anymore. Except this one ghost who sits with him after he's destroyed his fourth console that day and calls him Kid.

In the end, Luke brings his nephew back.

(What does this do for the rest of the movie's plot? idk idc, let Ben wander off to Naboo or something, all of the Hero Cast under the impression that he's dead and they're quite unconcerned about it. He stares out at it all in the spot where his grandparents wed, his uncle at his side. Breathes. Finishes recording a very awkward sign-off. There is a Windows 98 screen transition over to Leia, rolling her eyes and leaving one of the many restoration meetings she's had this week to figuratively slam the door of her quarters shut. She sits back in a chair, disables several security protocols, opens an unmarked case and plugs something into her comlink. "Greetings, Mother," a stilted voice begins. The camera angle changes, and Luke sits behind her, watching. She takes a moment to look back. She doesn't say it out loud, because everyone in the building practically through a party over Kylo Ren's death and she doesn't blame them, but she mouths, "Thank you," as Ben's apology gets stiffer and more rambly and worse in the background. She falls asleep in her chair and doesn't dream. Roll credits.)

[writingwife-83]

This is just a quick rant (that you can take as a request if you feel so inclined)

WHY AREN'T THERE MORE DARK REY FICS OUT THERE?! REDEEMED BEN IS NICE AND ALL BUT WHAT ABOUT REYLO RULING THE GALAXY TOGETHER?!!?

I get it! I have to admit it’s compelling, and I often think it’s super cool particularly when I see it in the form of fan art. I like it, but I have to admit I don’t necessarily want more of it or want to write a bunch of it myself. I kinda just enjoy it if I happen to come across it and then don’t think of it much beyond that. But hey, have a lil something since you sent an ask 😉…

Tired of Fighting

Kylo shifted in his bunk, surfacing into consciousness as a very familiar feeling washed over him. His eyes blinked open and he sat bolt upright, grabbing the lightsaber at his side and preparing to ignite it. His finger paused though, as Rey came into full view, standing near his bed by way of the Force.

“You,” he murmured.

“I can’t stop seeing it,” Rey said, prompted by nothing at all. There was something wild in her eyes.

“Seeing what?”

“A vision… of the Sith throne.” She paused, and he could see her swallow thickly. “You and I are on that throne.”

Kylo’s heart beat faster, because he began to realize that the look in her eyes wasn’t anger. It was excitement. He didn’t want to push her away again, so he proceeded with caution, gauging her intentions.

“I’ve seen it too,” he replied softly, gently. “You don’t need to be afraid, Rey. You don’t need to fight it any-“

“I know. I’m not fighting it anymore.”

Kylo blinked, wondering if she could possibly mean what it seemed like.

“I’m tired of fighting it,” Rey added, her eyes boring into his. “Now that I know who I am… it’s only become harder. Maybe it’s time to become who I’m meant to be. Maybe I’m not afraid of that anymore. At least, not if I’ll be with you.”

His entire body was humming with energy now, wanting to jump up, wrap his arms around her. But he knew this would only last for so long, and that wasn’t good enough. Only forever would be good enough.

Throwing his blankets off, Kylo stood to face her. “Where are you?”

Something shifted in Rey’s gaze, and he thought he saw the ghost of a smile playing at the corner of her lips as she stepped closer.

“Do you really want me to tell you?” Her eyes swept over his face, down slowly over his chest, then back up again. “What if I’m not ready to give up the fun of being chased?”

Kylo stared down at her with determination and thrill, instantly enjoying this new side of her. He’d known it was there all along, and he had not been disappointed.

“Well then, scavenger, I’ll just have to come find you.”

“Trust me, if I’ve learned anything from being a scavenger…” Rey lifted to her toes, so close that he could feel the warmth of her body against his chest and her breath against his lips even as their Force bond began to fade. “Searching and waiting makes for a much sweeter reward.”