#i'm not a psychologist and i don't have aspd so please take all this with a grain of salt

[narcpocalypse]

Speaking of that post I hope it's ok for me to send this ask in!

I have some OCs myself that also have NPD(+other PDs as well, like ASPD AND BPD for example) and I was wondering how to realistically portray NPD without unintentionally stigmatizing/demonizing it?

*also some are also POC as well and are my Elder Scrolls OCs also, if this helps.*

Feel free to delete this ask, if you don't feel like answering!

AGHHH MY FIRST ASK!!!!!!!!/pos

Fair warning, this is going to be a LONGGGG ass post and it will mention ableism towards NPDers. I want to make sure I cover as much as possible. If you have NPD and want to add anything, pls do so in a reblog or the comments! I am also super delirious so if what I say makes no sense I'm so sorry 😭

I think a full, completely in depth understanding is the key to not writing something stigmatizing/demonizing. It sounds obvious, but in the case of NPD, there's so much misinformation so I am hoping this post can guide you in the writing process. You never know what little thing can cause accidental mischaracterization.

This is a super important topic for me because honestly, I'm trying to figure out the same as someone with NPD myself, even with all the info available. I feel like there's so much grey area because so much is still unknown about the disorder (fuck the psych system/narc abuse believers). A lot of us have to go from our personal experiences and figure things out on our own, which brings me to my first topic:

Self Diagnosis And The Criteria!!!!!!!!

A LOT of us are self diagnosed, including myself. Whether you're officially diagnosed or not, most of us can agree the DSM5 is booty ass. I bring up self diagnosis specifically because due to the DSM5 being shitty, it's suuuper difficult to get diagnosed or even want a diagnosis. I personally don't want one.

If that's a theme you want to bring up in your work, I would definitely follow blogs here that break down the diagnostic criteria and re-define it in a realistic way. Having this is super important because the DSM5 is MADDD confusing even if it wasn't ableist.

Your characters might resonate with that confusion and even anger. Rage is such a prominent emotion with us narcissists, so its highly encouraged you tap into that. The stigma is so impactful to most of us and personally keeps me hidden.

If you went off the official criteria, you could innocently and accidentally write an ableist trope based off the DSM5. For example, the DSM5 has a very vague and "I do this just because I can blah blah blah and there's a name for it" narrative of narcissists. There's no nuance. They state accurate symptoms but don't accurately explain why we have them. Without context, it makes our intentions ultimately one size fits awful.

Here are some resources that have been super helpful to me!

Some extra specific things I keep in mind when writing my narcissistic characters:

-“Bad behavior” is such an important phrase to emphasize when writing narcissists negative symptoms and being mindful on how you approach the impact. Make sure that phrase is clear, even if they will not redeem themselves and are a piece of garbage. They did xyz because of bad behavior due to symptoms, they hurt john doe because of bad behavior due to symptoms. They make the conscious choice not to change their bad behavior because abc or they make the conscious choice to do better because blah blah blah.

-Depending on what communication style you want two or more characters to have, make sure the outcomes are accurate based off of symptoms. My examples don't explain narcissists as a whole, but they are based off of my symptoms:

Lack of Communication: Increase in superiority symptoms, increase in rage, increase in invalidation and inferiority feelings. Other parties, specifically egotypicals may have a misconception of the narcissist and believe their symptoms are how they really are and can't be redeemed due to stigma. In the situation involving a narcissist however, in my experience when this happens I'm always so confused. Nothing makes sense and nobody is explaining anything to me. I need outside perspective as to why my actions are wrong and lack of communication will sink me deeper into my delusions. Communication is so important coming from the outside perspective to snap me out of my spiral. Lack of communication on my end will cause me to bottle up my feelings, convinced I’m better alone. Not explaining my intentions (or lack there of, to be completely blunt and vulnerable.) to someone I hurt can cause them so much more pain too. I don't want to hurt anyone, and even if I don't FEEL sorry, I can acknowledge I don't want the people I care for to be hurt by my bad actions.

Proper Communication: Honestly in my case, usually the damage I caused isn’t forgiven however rebuilding that trust becomes so much easier accepting that and opening up to the person/people I hurt. The narcissist usually knows they can prevent xyz going forward, and the other party is prepared on how to handle the situation in case it happens again. In my experience, communication is super beneficial in terms of receiving supply too. ESPECIALLY when the other person involved is also a narcissist, they know that pain of not receiving praise/admiration and we can understand each other moving forward.

Other narcissists I encourage you give your experience w this too bc I have seen very diff ones!

-If you want to implement characters who are ableist towards the narcissist, some things I would do are:

Show the narcissists internal monologue after the trauma and put your main focus on their emotions, the ableist person’s actions second. The weight of their words will be shown more in the trauma response, less in the moment (although super important). Focus the context on the narc crash, anxiousness, surprise, grandiosity overcompensation, etc.

Have other characters defend the narcissist, preferably being other narcissists because we are the ones who understand each other the most and back each other up no matter what

Show the importance of proper education and lack of education

Ask yourself how this is relevant to the plot and your character/characters

-Ask yourself, why does/doesn't my character want to be redeemed? Is it a symptom or is it genuine? Do they want to do better but don't recognize it? Why don't they recognize it? What symptoms are holding them back from xyz (social connections, self care etc.).?

Examples of answers to these questions:

My character doesn't want to be redeemed because they are convinced they are justified in their actions. They genuinely believe they did the right thing and need time to get out of that mindset. What's stopping them from getting out of that mindset is the delusion they are stuck in. Working on their trauma triggers can help lessen the blow and onset of psychosis. If they recognize they are wrong, my character is the type of person to crash and have suicidal urges. There is a slow build up before the crash that spirals into madness. What may help is getting supply from their friends/partners reassuring them that recognizing their bad actions are a first step followed by praise for things outside of the situation to bring them back to a solid baseline or narc high.

My character has a hard time socializing because when having an episode of grandiosity, they feel like they are better than everyone and no one is at their level. In episodes of insecurity, they feel like they don't deserve friends because they feel worthless. This is followed by perfectionism and seeking unwanted friendships, only to self-destruct and hurt those around them. Their ego impacts everything they do.

-SHAMEEEE is one of the most important emotions (in my experience) to write about so pls make that an important part of how your character views themselves!

-I know I have been only focusing on negative aspects, but also do highlight the positive aspects. For me, NPD has motivated me to work on myself. It isn’t the healthiest way, but given my circumstance, it is the healthiest I can do right now. Even my most wild and delusional thoughts can lead to great opportunities for self improvement. Thinking I’ll become famous? Gave myself tools to work on my executive dysfunction and be consistent with a project I love. Narc highs are also absolutely incredible. Finding folks who understand me and receiving praise has kept me going. I genuinely feel listened to. Narcissists are some of the nicest people you will ever meet because they know what it feels like to hate themselves. No matter how little empathy some of us have, that doesn’t mean we can’t acknowledge one another (even if my symptoms make me feel so singular in my experiences/contradict the point of acknowledging others).

More info to represent different kinds of NPDers:

Some common comorbidities are:

Autism Spectrum

Bipolar Disorder

Schizophrenia Spectrum

DID/OSDD

All Cluster B Disorders

Eating Disorders and Addictions

So many of us are autistic. SO MANY. This small survey statistic doesn’t scratch the surface but it’s important to look at!

As an autistic person myself, I feel like a lot of the trauma I faced growing up highly contributed to the development of NPD. I was othered, shunned, invalidated and shamed for just existing. Still am. That made me overcompensate with erratic attempts to be wanted and loved and just acknowledged in any way possible. I want to be SEEN.

If anyone wants an in depth post sharing my experiences with bipolar disorder and NPD I will absolutely do so if asked too!

How NPD affects my gender itself, dysphoria and sexuality:

In my experience as a fat trans man, a lot of my dysphoria is rooted in narcissism, internalized fatphobia and internalized toxic masculinity. I want to be the ideal boyfriend that is praised for existing. My male privilege definitely contributes to that want and I can acknowledge and dislike that part of myself. I expect this certain level of respect for being a man without realizing it sometimes and make sure to hold myself accountable when doing so. My dysphoria makes me feel inferior to other men because I don't "pass" and I feel the need to compete against them. The insecurity is consuming me and I do my best to be aware if I cross any lines.

What I have noticed about gender and sexuality in NPDers is that a lot yall are aroace and nonbinary! Like based off of my survey alone and people I know!

I asked one of my mutuals if it wanted to share his experiences of being a POC with NPD and it agreed!! He wanted to stay anonymous (aka super duper awesomely cool and mysterious) so I’ll just be posting the ss of what he said!

I do not have much to say on the response from my mutual because I feel like what it said speaks for itself and because we've spoken in private about the topic already! If you want to write an Asian character with NPD, this is really useful information!!!! One day I will make a post elaborating on being a POC with NPD myself. But, for now, this will help you understand an experience from an Asian perspective.

I hope this post wasn't all over the place and makes sense, if you have any more questions please ask away!

[abysscronica]

Heyy thanks for clarifying on day 26! I did have another question about his characterization and your take on Kidd’s mental and psyche as well. I noticed in one of your previous answers you said that Kidd and his crew thinks of birdie as “kidd’s stuff.” In that sense could Kidd be unable to legitimately bond with people beyond seeing them as his tools or property? Because I also saw in your Emperor’s story that even Law sees that his mom is treated like an object, so this aspect of Kidd never gets resolved, and his possessiveness over Killer can also be seen as Kidd viewing him as his object/property rather than as a person and that’s why he hates that he got married so much. Like sees him as his partner, but doesn’t accept/acknowledge Killer as a being outside of their partnership basically. Idk if it’d be narcissism or something similar, maybe ASPD/socio/psychopathy, but basically do you think that Kidd has one of those disorders, or lacks the ability to genuinely care about/love those close to him and not be about ownership and pride? For example when he sees that Law’s hurt and tries to hide with sarcasm, and “feels bad;” is that feeling because he wants to keep Law around and is afraid he’ll hate him and leave, or because he “cares” and wants Law to be happy? If so it makes the story incredibly heartbreaking imo but realistic, as birdie deserves better but just accepts the situation, and it reflects dv situations where victims never leave for various reasons.

Just realized that letting birdie go at the end kind of counters this but it has been something that is bugging me about his characterization; not that it’s bad at all lol I think I’m just confused and looking too deep in this xD and sorry that this is so long. I didn’t exactly know how to explain what I mean, so if it doesn’t make much sense I’m sorry 😅

Hey! Sorry it took so long! 😩

Okay, first of all I need to state that I am not a psychologist, nor did I study the subject. I only have a very superficial knowledge of the disorders you mentioned (and I'm sure there are others that may be ascribable to the situation), so I wouldn't dare to assign any of these to characters I write, not without the proper research on the matter first. I characterize Kid, and all the other One Piece characters I include in my stories, just through the observation of their demeanor upon reading the manga, and I follow through based on the interpretation that forms in my mind as a result. Most of the time I do not sit down and outline the story, instead I create a situation and I let the characters act as they please according to their personality. I hope this makes sense to you? It's hard to explain.

Now, coming to your actual question: no, I do not think Kid only views his loved ones as objects. Especially not Killer, whom I'm sure he deeply admires since he was very young. Sure, he's possessive with some of his closest people; yes, he longs to be the center of their world, but he does not wish to force them into something they don't desire. As you said, you have the ultimate proof at the end of Captive: he lets birdie go exactly because he couldn't think of another way to break the power dynamics that took form between them. That is the very opposite of viewing her as an object or his property, on the contrary, it's precisely the toxic relationship that he's trying to escape. If you read through the lines, at the end of the book, it's birdie (not Kid) who's willing to settle for such dynamic, and he's the one who refuses because he wants her feelings to be authentic. Kid puts her wellbeing (or what he perceives as such) above his needs.

The relational patterns in Emperors are probably a little more difficult to piece together at times, mainly because there's a prominent time skip and we don't see how the relationship between Kid and birdie evolves through the years. Being his woman, Kid does view birdie as "his", in the sense that they are in a very exclusive relationship, a jealous one where either partner cannot even look at someone else. And it should be stressed that this goes both ways. Birdie is no better than Kid, she just has more self control. They are aware of it and they accept it (they get off to it, even). But should either of them express the desire to leave, the other would never try to prevent it by acting against their will. They want to be together as long as they're both in love. There's something else I can add to their relationship, which I wrote through the lines (but not too much really). Birdie is slightly masochist, or a "sub" if you will (she can be a switch). Kid is obviously a sadist, so they pair well together. Over the years, they learned to read each other to the faintest signs. This is a key you can use to read the scene in Emperors where Kid hurts birdie's hand. They both needed a cathartic punishment for what happened, Kid to inflict and birdie to receive, so they could move on and leave it in the past. Whether this relationship is unhealthy, toxic, and to what extent, I leave it to the reader to decide. Everyone can bring their own moral compass to the table and read it as they prefer.

Killer is a very different matter, of course. The fact that he accepted Kid as a captain doesn't take away from his own personality and needs, and it seems that Kid never questioned it. For example, Killer's own insecurity (maybe even self-loathe) pushed him to wear a mask all the time. I'm sure Kid isn't a big fan of this idea, but he lets his mate do his thing. At Sabaody, when we are first introduced to the crew, Killer was walking around causing ruckus by himself, and Kid was nowhere to be seen. More than "his stuff", I think Kid views Killer as a staple of his adventure (life?) since the beginning. Add his natural possessiveness into the mix (I'd never deny that he is in fact a possessive man), and you see that he'll naturally treat as antagonizing whatever threatens to divide them, like Killer's wedding. He just needs time to realize that Killer isn't going anywhere and adjust to the new routine.

This post is becoming quite long so I'll quickly wrap it up by saying that, in my mind, Kid just wants his children to be happy. You're gonna see that distance is going to do quite good for him and Law.

I hope this replies to your question. If not, feel free to drop another one for further clarification!