#idk i'm not saying it well but. all the themes of being othered and dehumanized

[vickyvicarious]

I had to tear down wrappings and ransack a number of boxes and drawers, but at last I managed to turn out what I sought; the box label called them lambswool pants, and lambswool vests. Then socks, a thick comforter, and then I went to the clothing place and got trousers, a lounge jacket, an overcoat and a slouch hat—a clerical sort of hat with the brim turned down. I began to feel a human being again, and my next thought was food.

I know this is like, a fairly common expression, but still... there's something to be said for the way Griffin doesn't feel human again till he is dressed.

His initial feeling of being a seeing man in a world of the blind, during his his invisible flight from his rooms, lasted only a few minutes. And then first he was struggling in the crowd, before he fairly quickly became prey on the run. The rest of his experience before he took shelter in the mall is pretty nightmarish.

He spends such a good chunk of the book described only as a stranger, and in a way that clearly reflects the testimonies of those who resented and didn't respect him. But also, for all that he is paranoid about being seen (being unseen) by them, he doesn't want to be identified or to socialize at all, so he never gives them a name. Mr. Marvel, of course, never knows him by any name either - he's the first person who (doesn't) see him for what he is right from the start of their acquaintance, and to him Griffin is only ever "the Voice" or "the Invisible Man."

We don't learn his name at all until chapter 17, when he identifies himself to Kemp. And even then, even after a whole back-and-forth repeating his name, he's still called either "the Voice" or "the Invisible Man", once "the Unseen", throughout the rest of that chapter. In chapter 18, he's described by name just once, when his reply to a final question of what else Kemp can get him indicates a surprising vulnerability/desire for comfort: "“Only bid me good-night,” said Griffin." Again, in chapter 19, Griffin is back to initially being only "the Invisible Man" when he's having his fit of temper. He gets his name back when sits down to eat and when he and Kemp are conversing about science. But when he begins describing his money trouble and how he robbed his father, he becomes "the Invisible Man" again at the close of the chapter. In chapter 20, it's mostly Griffin's story, but there's a little switch at the start of the chapter. Kemp takes "the Invisible Man's arm" to bring him away from the window when he's worried he'll see police approaching, and then puts himself "between Griffin and the nearest window" - when he feels more sure he's managing the situation, Griffin gets his name back. Again, at the end of chapter 21, he's back to his title while we see Kemp glancing out the window nervously and clearly distracted... his thoughts more on the help he sent for than on the story being confided to him.

With Kemp, the only person who knows his name, there is a clear pattern to call him by some title when he is afraid of his violence. At least so far. His name is only ever used when he is being more 'civilized'. Not even just whenever he is being open and vulnerable, because he does that a surprising amount throughout his story, but as Kemp's mind wanders, Griffin goes back to being titled once more.

When he's naked and totally invisible, Griffin himself feels like something outside of humanity. And while briefly freeing, this soon became a horrible feeling, something othering and scary. It's why his first instinct is to get clothes, before he even thinks about food. It's why he tries so hard to escape in the clothes he's stolen, before he's finally forced to abandon them. Sure, there's the practical reasons of not wanting to get sick and cold, and so on, but that's not the main drive. Except then he has to give that up in order to get away safely. And even when he does acquire clothes and money and his research and gets away somewhere safer (where the story begins), it's never enough. He's always othered to various degrees, which in general just keep increasing over time. By the time he gets to Kemp, his first request is no longer for clothes - something which again could just be put down to practicalities (he hasn't eaten in much longer this time, he's more used to running about naked and the weather is better) but also showcases much more of a willingness to leave them behind at the first sign of danger, in order to free himself to fight or flee. More certainty that he will need to. And he's right about that - after all, wearing clothes may make Griffin feel more human, but it's not the determining factor for Kemp here.

[moondragon618]

hey if you're still doing the ask game? 19 “You need to go through suffering to purge you of your sins. I’m just helping you.”

Here you go, this was fun to write lol :) Decided to go with Divine c!Prime for this one (for context this is c!Prime that have been immortal for so long that c!Dream figured out how to become an actual god and then made c!Tommy into his angel)

Warnings for abuse, religious themes, dehumanization, blood, torture, amputation, murder, mind reading? idk I feel like I should mention that, obsessive + possessive behavior, and c!Dream being Fucked Up :)

"I-I'm s-sorry Dream, I'm s-sorry, p-please forgive me-" Tommy whimpers, a perfect little angel trembling in fear before his god. Dream chuckles in amusement, absolutely delighted by the way he cowers in His divine presence, just as he should.

He grins as He takes in His beloved creation before Him- the pure white curls framed by the perfect ring of his halo, black as the void of his limbo and glowing a soft light blue, matching his luminescent blue eyes, just like Dream's bright glowing green. Small wings so white they almost glow, with feathers that shimmer iridescent, a smaller version of Dream's, intentionally made too small for him to fly.

So perfect. And His. His and His alone. :)

"Oh Tommy, you know I'll always forgive you, right? You're my everything, after all," Dream says, reaching down to gently run a hand through Tommy's hair. He grins as His little brother leans into His hand, delighted at the little hint of pride that comes from him despite his fear. "Now, spread out your wings for me, and I'll try to make this quick, okay?"

"W-what-" Tommy freezes, shivering, a wave of confusion and terror coming from him as he realizes what Dream wants to do.

Oh, He's always loved how easily He can play with Tommy's emotions, and it's even better now, being able to feel the effect he has on His Tommy.

"Relax, Tommy. I'll grow them back for you when I feel you've learned your lesson, okay?" Dream chuckles, lightly tracing the edge of Tommy's halo- it's fascinating how it feels like nothing, almost a sort of numbing sensation- and He can feel another sudden wave of fear from His angel, no doubt remembering just how agonizing the process of getting his wings was. "Oh, don't worry, Tommy. If you're really good, maybe I'll consider making it less painful this time."

"O-okay, Dream…" Tommy sighs shakily, lowering his head and obediently stretching out his small feathered wings, and although he remains quiet, Dream can hear him reciting his prayer to Him in his mind. Distracting himself, trying to calm himself, just like when he used to silently pray to the Primes back when the two of them were mortal.

And now he's praying to Dream to calm himself, to his true god, because he knows Dream will protect him far better that the Primes ever did. :)

"Good, Tommy. You're doing so well already," Dream grins, circling around behind Tommy, and gripping the elbow joint of one wing, firmly holding it in place. "Just keep holding still for me, and it'll be over before you know it."

Tommy whimpers, a shudder running through him, and Dream can feel just how difficult it is for him to not instinctively pull his wings in to protect them.

But he's still doing it, just for Him. :)

Dream then summons Nightmare, and with a single quick motion, he brings the blade of the axe down near the base of Tommy's wing and cuts it clean off, causing him to let out a satisfying, agonized scream.

"You're doing great, Tommy. Just one more to go," Dream says in a soft, comforting tone as Tommy lets out a sob, trembling violently as his blood runs freely from the remaining stump of his wing.

"D-Dream p-please it h-hurts-" he whines desperately as Dream moves to his other wing, holding it in place. "P-please-"

"Shhh, Tommy. You need to go through suffering to purge you of your sins," Dream says gently, taking a moment to savor that pure desperation and fear, and the way His Tommy is still managing to hold still for Him. "I’m just helping you."

And then He brings His axe down again, and the second wing comes off. And Tommy lets out another agonized wail, slightly longer than the last one, before devolving into harsh sobs again.

"There you go, Tommy," Dream says, letting Nightmare disappear once again before moving back in front of Tommy, taking in the sight of His angel, sobbing and kneeling with his now detached wings on either side of him. He reaches out to gently hold the side of Tommy's face, wiping away a tear, and tracing the curved scar that makes up half of a permanent smile, fondness and amusement filling Him as Tommy leans into the touch, desperate for comfort.

Dream then pulls him into hug, unbothered by the amount of blood now soaking the back of Tommy's hoodie. Tommy whines as he melts into Dream's arms, clinging tightly to Him, or at least as tightly as he can while already weak from blood loss.

"That's it, little angel," Dream says, hugging him a little tighter and letting His own wings surround him protectively. He giggles a little bit, relishing in His power over Tommy. "Mine. My Tommy."

"Y-Yours," He hears Tommy whimper quietly, seemingly without even realizing it, much to His utter delight. So perfect. Sometimes even He is surprised by just how deep His control runs.

Dream gently cards His fingers through Tommy's hair, thinking about the various things He could do with Tommy's wings now, and continuing to hold him until he eventually goes limp.

[calpalsworld]

Not "autistic anon," but also autistic, (being called maybe ableist made me want to put this out there before go to bed) i thought Zane was depicted that way purposefully by the writers. He has stereotypical traits like taking things literally, and has an actual humor switch. The writers have done things with Zane before like have him lose bodily autonomy (during that one Wu's teas short) and did something with his voice be it making him unable to be understood or talking too loud and the forced pirate voice by Jay. (what you're doing isn't too different from that, right?) I thought it was just a little iffy to distort his body and memory bc that could be interpreted as something not that I'm sure what exactly, it's some kind of disability. I dunno. I'm not good with putting this to words. I hope this makes sense.

Sorry I went to bed but now I’m awake 😭

Also I ended up totally spilling all my thoughts here rather than only specifically replying to you please forgive me context: my scary zane concept design, & my ninjago rewrite i refer to a lot 

Im a little confused but I think I get what you're saying? You're saying the Ninjago writers absolutely DON'T write Zane well (you listed examples of this) and you don't want me to fall into the same trap?

I had the opposite logic earlier. I thought: If Ninjago writers made Zane have stereotypical autisitic traits while also being a dehumanized robot, I may as well embrace it, say he is autistic blatantly, while also making him do funny/cool non-human robot things, so its clear as possible the two aspects of his character are literal and separate and not a metaphor for each other. But you're right! I do have a choice and I dont have to embrace things! :)

Like there were a couple ways I was gonna reject the original, for example, I never wanted Zane to have a funny switch, and I hated how other characters could fuck with Zane and he didn't even care 😬. I want to change that stuff. So youre right, if I am changing shit like that, it would be counterproductive for ME to GIVE him MORE traits along that theme. 😬😬😬 I should try to feel less obligated to portray Zane like he originally is. I still like the concept of "scary zane" (for reasons i explain below the cut) but I might tone it down a bit like with the claws and weird proportions and shit. I’d def make him look more skeletal and undead. That was my original intention, but i didnt execute it as good as I could have.... idk if anyone could tell thats what he was supposed to be like...my bad! But rn I dont wanna redesign him I wanna draw other stuff like normal alive Zane. Sorry LMAO 😳. Like I said in some earlier asks I think, I think Im gonna focus rn on how I should portray season 1 normal not dead Zane so thank you and feel free to share any other Zane thoughts ^_^ SOME OTHER THOUGHTS:

Also I Wanna Argue Some Stuff But I Understand its a Weak Argument Since All of This Context was Just In My Brain (so don't take this as an argument, just as me rambling): I don't want messed up things to happen to Zane and for it to just be ignored. I think if Zane is going to have fucked up things happen to him, as all characters must, its best for it to happen during a season where he actually addresses his feelings about being a robot (learning to accept that he will always be himself, regardless if hes "human" or the "original" or whatever. (thats how I always interpreted his emotions)). But I wouldn't have the other Ninja be very phased by Zane's looks because the whole point is they already love who he is (seasons 1-3 were about getting to know Zane) and now Zane himself just has to learn the physical, robot part of him is okay. Its about person-hood rather than humanity. Because the season focuses around Zane's soul, and because he lost his original body, I feel like I could mess around with his current, temporary body and have fun and make it scary. Because that body should be irrelevant. I understand it possibly being upsetting for an autistic character to be designed like this, but other people I talked to see it the opposite way. They find it comforting for him to look so different but still be himself and be so loved. SO IM ABSOLUTELY NOT saying its wrong to be bothered or to hate it or to feel any way. Just that I personally think it would be cool for Zane to be portrayed with a little spice lol, so thats why I like scary Zane for season 4.

Another Thing I Wannna Say But Is REALLY Hypocritical: (this isnt directed at anyone I just REALLY want to say this) I know I say "this is Zane but scary, he looks like fnaf" so he's obviously dehumanized, but I always felt like "scary" is more of an objective fact. Its an instinct. But what's "not human" is subjective. I think there is a problem with saying anything different from "average" human is dehumanized because that could extend to real people. Lol I know its bad for me to compare FNAF-ass Zane to real people, but I mean he could be real. People can have exposed teeth, and people can be shaped weird. And when someone first sees a person who looks like that they'll probably think "woah those features are scary" by instinct. And that surprise doesn't make someone ableist obviously. But bring that person’s humanity into question is NOT an instinct, and is fucked to shit. This is kinda a bad point for me to make since its about the fictional FNAF Zane I drew, and I am NOT implying ANYONE was thinking like this. [especially not the original asker anon who I am totally forgetting about at this point OOPS]. But I just thought it was an opinion of mine I couldn't go without mentioning when talking about dehumanization and disabilities.

^^^ I think you (anon) understand what I mean and might’ve said the exact same thing as me if you were writing a long ass response? I think this because you started to bring physical disabilities up and you said it was "a little iffy." ^_^ So we agree, but I don't see Zane's relation to real life disabilities as "a little iffy" I see it more like "complicated"? IF THAT DIFFERENCE EVEN MAKES ANY SENSE?????? I feel like a lot of things about Zane are really just complicated and need the right context, rather than the concepts necessarily being wrong -- NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT! THATS THE WHOLE REASON I DO THIS STUPID REWRITE! XD thats why a lot of my rewrite SO FAR has been the same concepts and plot beats, but different dialogue n specifics and such. I like a lot of concepts in Ninjago but I dont think they were presented correctly.....! :( So I guess all we can do is wait and see if I make Zane offensive or not....???

Also something about the memory part - yeah i agree i was surprised no one thought that was weird to make jokes out of his memory issues..... BUT I am like 100% firm on making his memory take longer to come back because I think its stupid how quick Zane was able to recover from literally dying. Like its just dumb to me. Hate it. (also bc memory & soul mechanics is ummm kinda important in my rewrite.... for reasons). Another memory thing btw, I was going to make his original amnesia come from hitting his head in an attack against the Skulkin when they stole his dads corpse, rather than his dad fucking choosing to make him forget. (its a sweet & iconic scene, but Um, WHY?!!!?!?!?!?) He has to follow data recovery instructions he finds in his dads diary. I think in that context it makes moments of memory loss somewhat different for Zane's character? Instead of loss of autonomy associated with disability, its a literal violent loss of autonomy associated with being traumatized by physical force. Idk how to phrase it exactly but I think that makes some vibes different?

Sorry, I think I got really distracted, and I don't know if I responded well to your points. Because uhhhh I think I agree with your stance actually? If I understand correctly? Fuck Ninjago writers for making the robot lose autonomy (a stereotypical robot theme) while also making him seem clearly autistic (NOT A HAPPY THEME FOR AUTISTIC PEOPLE) and not addressing it. And also auuugh Zane with a weird body is a difficult topic - kinda sussy pretty iffy.

Lol anyway idk if this made any sense and I REALLY rambled on you. but this was nice 👉👈 more Zane criticism pls love you and i love zane. i hope u dont feel mad at me because then it would be weird that im saying that lol. if you do feel mad at me tho you can send another ask (ILL TRY TO JUST LISTEN NOT RAMBLE NEXT TIME) but assuming ur chill rn, love you thnx

Take this page, don’t mind cole’s ass.

[joannalannister]

Hi there! I've been meaning to ask this for awhile now, but I was just wondering what you think Jon's reaction to finding out Daenerys is his aunt will be? I mean, in my mind, it *could* go either way ... he could just not care bc of the whole Targaryens wedding family all the time, but I'm not entirely sure. I've been waiting SO LONG for my ship to sail, and tbh, I really don't care that they're nephew/aunt, but yeah. I just wanted to get your take on it!

In the books, I think that Jon is going to find out about Rhaegar and Lyanna in TWOW, before he meets Daenerys. So I don’t think “Daenerys is my aunt” is the familial relationship he’s immediately going to focus on, although I’m sure he’ll figure that out eventually. I think Jon has to grapple with the fact that Ned isn’t his biological father, along with the fact that his biological father Rhaegar disappeared with his mother Lyanna, who was underage at the time of her disappearance. And then this disappearance ignited a chain of events that caused Jon’s Uncle Brandon’s and his grandfather Rickard’s deaths. Not to mention a war. 

Quotin myself:

idk if I would be so quick to dismiss Jon’s feelings. I think the emotional impact is kind of the whole point of the story. GRRM says he’s writing about “the human heart in conflict with itself”. It’s the emotional struggle that we relate to, more so than wielding a magical sword and slaying ice zombies. It’s R+L=J that is going to play a significant part in Jon Refusing the Hero’s Call. Jon has created a fantasy about Ned and his mother, and the pain of having that fantasy ripped away, of finding out he was Rhaegar’s design, a piece of Rhaegar’s prophecy, is gonna be a really big deal to him. Jon has to work through these feelings, and decide to save the world because he chooses to, and not because it’s something on Rhaegar’s survivalist checklist. Rhaegar was doing things because he thought it was required (”it seems i must be a warrior”), because some dusty prophecy said so. Jon’ll do it because it’s right and it’s what he chooses, and his emotional journey is gonna be the whole point of twow/ados.

See also. Also also: #r plus l equals j

So that’s. A lot of stuff for Jon to work through in TWOW.

And I don’t actually think that Dany is arriving in Westeros until near the end of TWOW, and I think that she’s going to be in the King’s Landing / Dragonstone area. 

Perhaps Jon will meet her there idk, perhaps not. I personally like the idea of Jon going south trying to find the Tower of Joy and spending 40 days and 40 nights wandering the Dornish desert (I would like to learn more about Dorne), but instead GRRM will probably opt for a metaphorical desert of the heart. Regardless of whether it’s a physical desert or a metaphorical one tho, I think the problem remains the same: the rejection of evil. Instead of Satan appearing to Jesus Jon, it’s indifference and despair that Jon must reject. 

To quote Elie Wiesel, 

The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it’s indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it’s indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it’s indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies.

Indifference, to me, is the epitome of evil.

What hurts the victim most is not the cruelty of the oppressor but the silence of the bystander.

This is what I think ASOIAF is all about - having the courage to speak out and oppose what is wrong in the world. (This is why that theory about Tyrion losing his tongue is so heinous.) We see people speaking out when Tyrion stands up for one little girl, in Jon saving wildlings and letting them through the Wall in spite of the bigotry that will get him killed, in Dany freeing slaves, in Sansa speaking on Dontos’s behalf, and the stuff all the other heroes do. 

And we see a lot of evil happen in ASOIAF when people stand by and look the other way and do nothing - like the Kingsguard. 

(Remember Rhaella. Remember the men of the kingsguard who looked away. Remember Daenerys, who “dare not look away” when people are being raped or mutilated or murdered.)

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Remember the call: “ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?”

“Only silence answered.”

That’s really what I think Jon is going to be dealing with in TWOW - the temptation to sit it out and do nothing as the War of the Five Kings resumes and the Wall falls, and the ice zombies invade. 

The temptation to answer all this with silence. 

(Like, if you asked me to describe how I think TWOW’s going to be like … I think it’s going to be like that moment in a movie when you’re holding your breath in anticipation and horror.)

I have a tendency to resort to Wheel of Time quotes when I run out of ASOIAF quotes, but I honestly think of these two series as sisters in the epic fantasy genre so anyways. In WOT there’s this prophecy related to the salvation of the world, “The grave is no bar to my call.” 

When ADOS asks, “ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?” Zombie!Jon has to choose to answer the call, despite his death, despite everything that happened to him. 

So anyways … The temptation to answer all this with silence … while I think Dany’s story is going to parallel Jon’s throughout TWOW, I think the very earliest they’re going to meet is at the very end of TWOW, and maybe not until ADOS. 

So by the time Jon actually meets Dany, I think he knows full well who she is, and who he is.

Sidenote - I do not think that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married in the books because 

I believe Jon’s story is about coming to terms with who he is, and that includes being a bastard - just not Ned’s bastard. 

I do not think GRRM would undermine and sideline Dany’s claim to the Iron Throne like that, when Dany’s story centers around a choice between her people vs her throne. It would make her final sacrifice at the end that much bigger, if it includes the throne that she must give up.

So when Jon and Dany finally meet … I think it’s all going to be very chaotic and desperate. 

Also. Jon will be an undead fire zombie in the books, so let’s. 

Let’s not forget that. 

Because I think that is going to be Very Important. 

I would say that death … or zombification … or whatever word you would like to use for the experience of being murdered and resurrected … is going to be a much bigger issue for Jon and Dany’s relationship than simple incest.

I think throughout GRRM’s body of work – not just ASOIAF, but everything – there’s this theme about … about … the boundaries of love, but more importantly, the breakdown of those boundaries that stop us from loving each other. It’s A Song for Lya. It’s the spider loving a human woman in Tower of Ashes. It’s Vincent in Beauty and the Beast. 

It’s GRRM saying that love is boundless. 

So with Jon and Dany … I’m hesitant to speak here because GRRM has so much left to write … I think that Jon has to realize, with Dany’s help, that death doesn’t stop you from loving. 

Think about what Jon’s been through. 

He was murdered. Betrayed by his own men. 

Murdered because he wouldn’t leave the wildlings to die on the other side of the Wall. Because he let them in, in his love and his compassion for humanity. Murdered because he loved a wildling girl. Murdered because he loved his sister, and he wanted to go save the girl he thought was Arya. 

Like, you can get into all the political reasons behind Jon’s assassination, but in the end? I think it was about love. Bigots like Bowen Marsh lack that kind of love. 

And Jon died for it. 

I think Bran’s AGOT vision is a metaphor for Jon in TWOW: “Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.”

Warmth is love. 

Remember, “The real enemy is the cold.” The cold is slavery, abuse, murder, cruelty. The cold is all the ways that people hurt each other. The cold is indifference, despair. The cold is the absence of hope. The cold is death, dehumanization. 

So in TWOW, I think Jon’s going to have a lot of problems letting people in. 

I think Undead Jon rejects love. I don’t think he’ll remember what it is, and that’s what will make him initially reject his savior role. That’s why he’ll initially be indifferent to humanity’s fate. Zombie!Jon just can’t find it in him to care anymore imo. 

You can’t step up and save humanity if you don’t love humanity. 

I think Dany has to warm Jon up, so to speak. 

Because humanity is fire (life) and the Others and their army of the Undead are ice, and the song of ice and fire is the war between humanity and the Others. With Jon zombified and, worse, indifferent … refusing the call … he’s an (unwitting) agent of the Others, and Dany has to save him. I mean, Dany has to save everyone, but she has to save Jon first. She has to make him remember what it means to be human.** 

Like, Mel is going to bring Jon back pretty quickly imo, but … what is life worth, “when all the rest is gone?” Being back isn’t enough. Dany’s going to make Jon live again, as she never could for Drogo. (That’s gonna be a nice bookend, @GRRM, if we ever get to read it.) 

Like, ASOIAF is about second chances. Samwell failed to release the ravens on time in ACOK, but you can bet he’s gonna release them on time when it really counts. Dany couldn’t make her Sun and Stars live again in his undead state … but you can bet your ass she’s gonna make Jon Snow live again.

I don’t know exactly how that’s going to happen, but I really, really, really don’t think Jon and Dany bang until they’re beyond the curtain of light, in the Other World Faerie Realm Lovecraftian Parallel Universe of Nightmare and Death. 

If Westeros has a version of Adam and Eve, two people alone and in love at the birth of the world … well, I imagine Jon and Dany as the inverse, two people alone “at the end of all things”. 

Imagine Belle’s magic mirror, Galadriel’s basin of water, Saruman’s palantir … the Sony JumboTron … whatever far-seeing device the Others can use to demoralize Our Heroes … imagine Jon and Dany watching all the dead and dying as Winterfell’s outer curtainwall falls. Imagine them watching when … I don’t know … someone in a critical defensive position betrays them. Imagine Grey Worm dying. Imagine idk horrible things. Disheartening things. Imagine Our Heroes losing heart. (The human heart in conflict with itself!) 

(I think the Others are smart and I think they understand psychological warfare. Look how they play with people.)

Jon: “I am glad you are here with me, Dany. Here at the end of all things.”

Not a happy conversation, maybe, but a human one. Both of us needed someone, and we reached out. […I] made love to her as fiercely as I could. Then, the darkness softened, we held each other and [pushed] away the night.

–Dreamsongs

Did it matter to Adam, that Eve was born of his rib? That’s why this issue with incest is so irrelevant to me when it comes to Jon and Dany - I think the circumstances are going to be so weird, so wild, they’ll make that fish-fucking movie look normal. 

Jon is a zombie. They’re going to be in a Lovecraftian Universe. It’s the end of the world. Dany and Jon being related is not going to matter. 

In this Other World, this alien Lovecraftian dimension, I think Jon and Dany are the only two humans in this whole Other universe (with the possible exception of Tyrion, but Tyrion’s really a wildcard, more morally ambiguous than either Jon or Dany imo and therefore much more difficult to predict). 

And so Jon and Dany reach out to each other – they have sex – as a celebration of their humanity, an act of defiance against an alien species that wants to destroy humanity. 

And this act revitalizes them, gives them their second wind … and they can go do … whatever it is they need to do … to defeat the Others. 

Love, life, salvation … there’s so much bigger stuff at stake here than “She’s my aunt”.

So no, I don’t think it will matter to Jon.

I have more Jon/Dany thoughts here, if you like: #jdmeta

-

**When Aemon gives Jon that “Kill the boy” speech, I think the mistake Jon makes is that he thinks he must kill his humanity. He pushes his friends away, he becomes isolated, he heartlessly steals Gilly’s baby. It’s cold and cruel … almost Tywin-esque. And I joke about Tywin being a golden cyborg, but that’s what toxic masculinity is … it’s a denial of humanity. I think Dany will have to help Jon remember what it’s like to be human. 

[joannalannister]

Do you subscribe to the theory that Tyrion might lose his tongue? The Lannister children lost things that represent who they are and where their pride and strengths come from--Jaime lost his sword hand, Cersei lost the people's admiration of her beauty during her walk. And Tyrion has a way with words. What do you think? Love reading your metas, specifically about House Lannister. I'm hooked!

Thank you for the compliment! I didn’t know before tonight that there was a theory that Tyrion would lose his tongue, and I was happier in my ignorance. I don’t hold with this theory. Lemme take this piece by piece.  

“The Lannister children lost things that represent who they are”

Is this really true, though? “Things that represent who they are”?

To suggest that Cersei’s beauty represented who she was seems rather superficial to me – what of her cunning, her ruthlessness, her courage, her perseverance, her cruelty, her ambition, her Lannister name and all that comes with it? Westeros defines Cersei by her beauty (or the loss of it), but I don’t, and I would think that careful readers wouldn’t define her by that either. 

And Cersei doesn’t give one flying fuck about the people’s admiration: “King’s Landing had never loved Lord Tywin. He never wanted love, though.” Cersei, who wishes to emulate her father, doesn’t think much of the people’s admiration. She believes that “Fear is better than love”. 

I am Cersei of House Lannister, a lion of the Rock, the rightful queen of these Seven Kingdoms, trueborn daughter of Tywin Lannister. And hair grows back.

I honestly don’t know what to call that but pride and strength, and it’s not coming from her hair or her beauty. 

Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.

^^That final thought in ADWD is not the thought of a woman who has lost who she was. Far from it. Note GRRM’s use of Cersei’s full name there. 

When Jaime says, “They took my sword hand. Was that all I was, a sword hand?” … well, was a sword hand all he was, truly? The point of Jaime’s arc to me is that he’s so much more than a mere sword hand. If you asked me to say one thing and one thing only that represents Jaime, I would not say sword hand. No, my answer would be contradiction. Jaime is a Kingsguard but also a Kingslayer, a brother but also a paramour, a disowned son, a knight and a knave simultaneously. 

And does Jaime have no strengths other than swordsmanship, truly? What of his fearsome reputation, what of his strong sense of loyalty and duty? And are we really going to say that Jaime isn’t proud after he loses his hand? 

But you came here to talk about Tyrion. 

First of all, Tyrion already lost a piece of himself, before either of his siblings lost pieces of themselves. Tyrion lost his nose, and with it he lost any illusions he had that people would look upon him favorably. I mean that both metaphorically (no one appreciates what he did to save the city, when by rights he should be a war hero - Tywin basically tells him to fuck off) and literally (Tyrion thinks he will be a hideous bridegroom). 

(Honestly, if you’re looking for the connection between the three Lannisters losing parts of themselves, that’s what I think it is - their disillusionment. Their loss of body parts coincides with their loss of illusion imo – tho I’m still waiting to meet TWOW!Cersei for confirmation.) 

Second … from what I gather reading posts by proponents of this theory, it’s motivated by a belief that Tyrion needs to be humbled further by the narrative … that he is still too proud … which is kind of gross to me? Tyrion has already been humbled by the narrative; he was literally sold into slavery. Penny is showing him what it is like to be a person with dwarfism without the protection of the Lannister name and Lannister gold. Tyrion literally has to perform in a circus act for people’s entertainment, so idk how much more dehumanized these theorists want to see Tyrion? 

Like, the point of ASOIAF isn’t dehumanization. GRRM isn’t trying to get us to revel in seeing people dehumanized. For example, the point of Cersei’s walk of shame isn’t to revel in Westerosi misogyny, it’s to see how horribly unfair and unjust that misogyny is, that Westeros would punish Cersei for having sex, instead of punishing her for, idk, murdering babies. 

Third, a major part of Tyrion’s story is overcoming all the abuse he suffered at his father’s hands. And silencing Tyrion was literally exactly a tactic that Tywin used against Tyrion, replayed in ADWD with Connington:

“Unless you can cut this fog with your next witticism, keep it to yourself.”Yes, Father, the dwarf almost said. I’ll be quiet. Thank you.

(^^look how Tyrion becomes “the dwarf” at this echo of Tywin’s abuse. It breaks my heart.)

The narrative has set itself completely in opposition to Tywin and his dehumanizing tactics. Tywin would love it if Tyrion lost his tongue and could never speak again. I’m having a really hard time believing that GRRM will write anything that Tywin would love in the coming books. 

Fourth, I don’t think that silencing an abuse victim is very much in line with the spirit of ASOIAF; GRRM repeatedly frames that as a heinous thing to do, across multiple plotlines. (Please click on that link. Please.) Silence is used to dehumanize people in ASOIAF. 

This is going to be a radical statement, i know … but maybe … just maybe … there are so many references to tongues being removed in Tyrion’s chapters because … it’s a theme that the (corrupt) people in power thrive on silence, and speaking out against them is hard, but we must do it anyway. 

Think about Tyrion in King’s Landing. Tyrion is one of the only people challenging his family when they commit atrocities. Yes, Tyrion is sometimes a party to those atrocities, but he’s also the person saying, Fuck no. "Sansa is no longer yours to torment. Understand that, monster.“ 

(This is why there is so much Janus imagery in Tyrion’s chapters, because of Tyrion’s duality.)

Fifth … this has nothing to do with the text and everything to do with this ableist fandom … do you know how many times I’ve heard variations of “I wish Tyrion would just shut up and quit whining!!!1!” during my … seven … years on this website? A disabled abuse victim … suffering from depression and PTSD … needs to … “quit whining” … I’m surprised I haven’t been driven into a constant state of apoplexy. I pray daily that Tyrion keeps ~~”””whining”””~~, just so that it pisses people off. 

Sixth … I’m sure I’m about to be pilloried for saying this. But. I think. Tyrion. Has. Much greater potential for heroism. Than other adult members of his family. I don’t understand why proponents of this theory would lump Tyrion in with Tywin to ~make Tyrion suffer~ as Tywin did???? That’s really disgusting. 

So, no, this theory is definitely not for me. 

Hope that explains my thoughts to your satisfaction!

[joannalannister]

I've seen you reblogging Jon/Dany stuff and I'm curious how likely you think that level of love/romance would be in the coming canon. Even putting aside whatever state Jon is going to be in post-resurrection, I'm not sure their past relationships suggest that each would be the other's type for instant attraction, and I don't know if they'd have time to develop much of a relationship what with the oncoming winter apocalypse. Or is it just a ship people like the idea of but don't expect?

Oh no, I don’t think the all-American, crewcut, boy-next-door Jon Snow we’ve seen in AGOT - ADWD is Dany’s type for instant attraction at all! 

Dany’s the type who likes rockstars with wild hair, and the power and danger of a big ol’ Harley-Davidson between her legs. She’s looking for a maverick fighter pilot from Top Gun to ride one of her dragons.  She wants a rebel with a cause, not a lost, grieving boy. I don’t think the Jon Snow we know is the type of guy Dany’s looking for!

But Jon Snow died. ;)

In the words of the King, “The person you put up there ain’t the person that comes back. It might look like that person, but it ain’t that person” (Pet Semetary). “Resurrection… ah, there’s a word (that you should put right the fuck out of your mind and you know it).”

GRRM has said that “Death is hard.” It changes a person. Look at the Lightning Lord. Look at Lady Stoneheart. They remember, but they’re not the same people anymore. I think Jon Snow, after spending some time in Ghost, is going to come back wilder. More reckless, more dangerous, more … rockstar. So I think Dany will find Jon very attractive. 

(from Jesus Christ Superstar) 

(Will TWOW please come out soon, because my ASOIAF / pop culture analogies are getting wilder and wilder.) 

So anyways, you can’t just “put aside” Dragonriding Rockstar Jesus Jon Snow and his Resurrection, or his Freefolk Groupies on the tv show, or his tv manbun when considering the potential for Jon/Dany. The resurrection – and the change it will bring – is a big reason why I think Jon/Dany has potential.

So how likely do I think there will be love/romance between Jon/Dany in canon? I’m certain of it. I think Jon and Dany will grow very close as they fight together to save the world, and I think that’s a beautiful thing. I’ll wager money on Jon/Dany falling in love in the books before the end of ADOS; any takers? First come, first served. 

I’m not saying there won’t be issues Jon and Dany need to work out, or that they’re just gonna say “Hi” before asking each other to winter prom so they can bang on the backseat of a dragon. 

I’m not sure their first meeting will go smoothly, or end well.

I don’t know the lay of the land for this journey GRRM is going to take us on. 

But I feel very strongly that our destination is Jon and Dany being in love before the books end. I don’t care how cliched, how trope-y anybody says it is; GRRM loves this trope-y, cliched fantasy shit. (I love it too.)

Do you remember Vaes Tolorro? Dany ate a peach in ruins bleached bone-white by the sun. The juice stained her cheeks as she ate, “so sweet she almost cried.” Vaes Tolorro is one of my favorite places in ASOIAF. It was cut from the tv show, because it wasn’t significant to the plot. 

It’s thematic significance is paramount, however. Vaes Tolorro is about life. It’s hope, in the midst of rack and ruin. It’s about standing in the shade of one of those white buildings and looking out at that sun-drenched Red Waste, at that endless sea of death stretching from horizon to horizon, and saying, “Not today. Not to-fucking-day.” It’s a glorious city, even in ruins. It’s defiant. As glorious and defiant as Casterly Rock in its own way, and I can speak no higher praise. 

“From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring” and all that jazz about hope and life and rebirth. 

To steal the words of Robert Jordan, “Almost dead yesterday, maybe dead tomorrow, but alive, gloriously alive, today.” 

That’s what Vaes Tolorro is all about. 

That’s part of what ASOIAF is all about: “I’m alive. I’m still here, I’m up against the impossible and I’m still trying, I’m still breathing, I’m still standing, and you’re not going to treat me that way anymore. My life has meaning, my life is valuable, and you’re not going to treat me like a kicked dog. I’m alive. I’m a human being. And don’t you forget it. Because I will prevail.” Whether the “you” is a man as small as Randyll Tarly or a force as big as the Others, it doesn’t matter. To each and every one of them, what do we say? 

Not today, motherfucker.

That’s what GRRM is saying when he writes paragraph-long descriptions of food that make your mouth water, and songs to make your heart ache, and yes, love and sex. 

Every morsel the characters eat, every voice lifted in song to ask the Gentle Mother for mercy, every “often and unpredictable” kiss … it’s a celebration of life. 

And every celebration of life is an act of defiance against the Others who would destroy all life on Terros. Every kindness, every act to humanize one another … it’s a bulwark against the Others. Every time the Tywins and Tarlys and Boltons of the world work to dehumanize another person, they’re aiding the enemy. They’re traitors to life itself. 

(I could go on and on about this “celebration of life” for every story GRRM has written, but I’m restraining myself.) 

I don’t know what Jon and Dany (and Tyrion) need to do beyond the curtain of light to save the world. But I don’t think it’s something as simple as “We have to put this obsidian rock on the crystal throne” or something like that. I think whatever they have to do will be something more thematically important, something that is a celebration of humanity. 

When they go beyond the curtain of light, Jon/Dany is Vaes Tolorro. They’re an oasis of life, surrounded by death in the stronghold of the Others. Intimacy between them is the most life-affirming thing they could do, and that’s what the series is all about. 

I’m not saying Jon and Dany are gonna fuck to save the world but … I think Jon and Dany are gonna fuck to save the world. Or at least that’s going to be part of it. I’m not even particularly emotionally invested in this ship (where are the Lannisters?), but a Jon/Dany romance is simply the logical conclusion imo. 

“A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… .”

“We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”

I think Jon/Dany is something glorious, something transcendent, but it’s also something sad imo, because I think they’ll die doing whatever they have to do. 

(Also Tyrion needs to learn to love himself and forgive himself, and I think that’s also a part of saving the world, but that’s not what this post is about.)

******

You mention that you don’t think there’s enough time, but I have a couple things to say to that:

1) GRRM can build a whole world in two paragraphs. Despite the verbosity of ASOIAF, he can tell a whole complete, emotionally-satisfying story in 10 pages. Give him one Dany chapter, and I think we’re good to go.

2) I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I think the place beyond the curtain of light is like the Fairy Realm and we don’t know the rules of such a place. Does time flow faster or slower there? Does time have any meaning at all there? We don’t know. If precisely nine months have to pass “under the Fairy Hill” while 9 minutes pass battling wights at Winterfell to make whatever needs to happen happen, then that’s what GRRM is gonna do. *shrug* We don’t know the rules. The rules of such a place are whatever GRRM will make them.

So I would say that there’s however much time GRRM needs to tell Jon and Dany’s story. 

As I’ve said elsewhere, I think the Iron Throne is going to be melted down, I think Jon and Dany are both going to die while saving the world (I will put money down on Dany dying, at the very least), and I think the Seven Kingdoms are going to break apart into separate kingdoms.

So I don’t think we need to worry about the “Afterward” for a Jon/Dany romance. It’s like if Frodo died in the lava when Barad-dûr collapsed in the movies. idk how it will play out tho in ASOIAF. Maybe after the “Fairy Hill” of the Others’ “collapses” for lack of a better term about what’s going to happen there, it spits mortally wounded Jon, Dany, and Tyrion out at a place of power, like the God’s Eye, idk, maybe it will be like GRRM’s Laren Dorr story. Anyways, maybe nine months have passed in the “Fairy Hill” while only a day has passed in Westeros, and Dany gives birth to a child before dying? Really, I don’t know, this is just me throwing wild suggestions out there. If GRRM really does make them have a kid, I definitely think both Jon and Dany are dying, but I’m really not sure if there is a Jon/Dany child in store in ASOIAF. 

I feel certain that Jon, Dany, and their potential kiddos are not going to be ruling Westeros in endgame. (I’ll put money on that one too. I’m gonna be rich as a Lannister if anybody wants to take me up here.) Any cute Jon/Dany+kids art/gifs I reblog is purely because I think it looks like a sweet and fluffy AU totally unlike anything GRRM will do. I really, really don’t think we’re ever gonna see any Jon/Dany family time, either together or one of them as a single-parent. (That’s what fanfic is for, friends.)

******

I could use this space to make a list and give you quotes to “prove” that “Jon likes THIS quality in a woman and THIS quality and THIS one” and then I could give you quotes proving how Dany possesses those qualities

but

1) I honestly don’t care. I’m mostly here for ASOIAF themes, and when I shake my magic 8-ball of ASOIAF themes and ask it, “Will Jon and Dany fall in love and bang?” it returns an answer of “Outlook Good.” 

2) GRRM is gonna change Jon to fit this, whether it’s the resurrection, or spending 40 days and nights in the deserts of Dorne, or whatever the fuck else is happening in twow

3) Jon’s headspace is not one I prefer to spend time in.

4) plenty of other people have probably already made such a list. (Feel free to link me, people!) Lots of people are way more emotionally invested in Jon/Dany, so if such a list isn’t already out there, I’m sure someone will write it. 

What I will use this space for is to mention GRRM’s short story The Way of Cross and Dragon. Because GRRM literally wrote and published a Bible AU with dragons and Judas in love with Jesus, let’s not forget that while considering Jon/Dany and the betrayal for love, I’m not even joking.

because Judas had loved Him so, Christ gave him a boon, an extended life […]. Once Dragon-King, once the friend of Christ, now he became only a blind traveler, outcast and friendless, wandering all the cold roads of the earth […] 

And Peter, the first Pope and ever his enemy, spread far and wide the tale of how Judas had sold Christ for thirty pieces of silver, until Judas dared not even use his true name. […] 

Christ promised that He would permit a few to remember who and what Judas had been, and that with the passage of centuries the news would spread, until finally Peter’s Lie was displaced and forgotten.

GRRM says he is a “recycler” of stories, and I’m interested to see what GRRM is going to do with Jon/Dany. I like the idea of it, and I’m totally expecting it to become canon during the apocalypse.

tbh this makes me sound more interested than I am, when in reality it’s like, I’m interested in Jon/Dany simply because I’m interested in the ending of ASOIAF. Because “Jon/Dany” and “ending” are synonymous in my mind. 

But I would literally forgo ADOS in exchange for more information about Casterly Rock and House Lannister. (A large amount of information, but still.) House Lannister for life, what can I say?